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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: beckygatt on May 11, 2010, 07:16:29 am
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I am 2 weeks into sleep training my 13 month old with GW. It has been going quite well. I still stay in the room till she sleeps but she falls asleep on her own without too much fuss. At night she had a couple of long NWs but the last few days has been either STTN or waking very briefly needing paci and sleeping again. Last night though she cried more than usual before sleeping and then spent between 12 and 2am awake and crying quite a lot before finally sleeping again. I know relapse is common around 5 days into sleep training but could it happen 2 weeks in? I always worry there may be something else bothering her when she does this :-\ She was doing so well! There always seems to be something or other. Its like I'm playing one big guessing game!! ???
Any insight would be greatly appreciated!!
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Being awake for 2 hours and crying would suggest pain and/or OT to me. Could it be that?
What did yesterday look like?
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She may have been OT as Sunday was a long day and she hadn't quite caught up yesterday. Today she's had 2 good hour and 10min long naps. She woke from last one at 3 so maybe I'll ensure she's in bed by 7pm latest. As for pain teething is always an option I guess. She has been a bit cranky today; not sure if she's just tired or teething. I can't wait till she can talk! All this guessing is so exhausting!
Thanks for your reply! x
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ok well if you suspect teeth then medicate before bed and see how you get on. If it helps then you have your answer....for now! :)
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I did medicate last night and she slept well till 4.30, at which point she was awake for about 30mins. If she is fine during the day surely that makes it less likely to be teeth? And if it is teeth what can I do to prevent our 2 weeks of sleep training going down the drain?! And to prevent bad habits forming again :-/
BTW she has been fine at nap times...
Thanks!
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well yes tbh I cannot say whether she is teething or not but 2 hours awake and crying could well be. Last night sounds much better though. Did she go back to sleep by herself at 4.30am?
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I stayed near her and laid her down a couple of times and then she slept alone. I also gave her a bit of water as she is sometimes thirsty at night. She cried quite heartily for a bit but only for a few mins max and then she was ok. She tossed and turned a bit and went back to sleep. oh I forgot she also woke again briefly at 6am and again slept within about 5-10 mins.
She's been very happy today and went down easily for her first nap.
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ok well it seems much better. You say you are sleep training. Are you doing GW?
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Yes I put her to bed and sit there till she sleeps. I don't pick her up but occasionally lay her down if she's really upset. I'm gradually noving the chair towards the door. Have made it just over half way so far! She goes to sleep quite well by herself, especially for naps, but when she wakes at night she still needs me to give her paci and sometimes lay her down again.
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Hey hun
Just a few suggestions. We did GW to get back on track and I did feel like I might never get out that door but it does work!
My LO uses a paci and I would suggest once she is asleep (not before or you may end up with a great game of swapping dummies for ages...can you tell we had this?!!) to leave several dummies around her in the crib. If she wakes hopefully she can find one. If not don't give it to her. Help move her hand toward a paci so she replugs herself. That way her thinking will change from 'I need mummy to give me my paci' to 'I'm awake and want to go back to sleep, I'll get my paci' and the chance of her resettling herself will increase IYSWIM? Once my LO got that any NWs she had she pretty much just got her paci herself and went back to sleep.
The other thing when doing GW is to fade yourself as a physical presence as much as possible and not be physically involved in the settling IYKWIM? So rather than lie her down, I'd just pat the mattress so she starts lying down by herself. I did that rather than just leaving her until she decided to do it herself (as she may have stood for hours on end) but it was less intrusive and easier to fade than physically lying her down.
Sounds like she is doing really well going to sleep which is fab. Great work on your part!! Hopefully giving her some tools to resettle herself will help with the NWs!
HTH xx
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Thanks! I do try to put a few pacis in. Maybe I go to her rescue too quickly though. I think I'm scared of her 'waking up too much'! Did it take long for you to get to the stage when you could leave the room while yours was still awake?
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I was always afraid of 'waking up too much' too! Just don't hand her the paci, move her hand to find one so she realises she can do it herself!
It took about 4 weeks to be able to just put her down awake, we did it very gradually and there were some nights I'd have had to go in and sit for a bit..OT mostly as she found it harder to settle on her own.
HTH xx
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Another bad night again last night :-( She didn't actually cry a lot but she was very restless. A few times she made some noises or cried a few secs and put herself back to sleep, but at 1am I had to go in and help her find paci and stay with her. I tried to sneak out a couple of times but after 5 mins she'd cry again so in the end I just sat in there till I was sure she'd slept. She was awake about 45mins in all, on and off. As I said she wasn't crying much just restless. Then she woke at 6am, slept for another 10-15mins and was up for the day. I don't think it was her teeth last night as she wasn't crying much but she was very restless from early on in the night. She had had two 1hr naps with A times of 3hrs, 3hrs and then 3hrs 45mins...
Any ideas? I really thought we were getting somewhere with sleep but its all going downhill again :-( I'm starting to think she's not going to sleep well till she's 4 or 5!
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im wondering if she is getting OT,i wonder if she needs her A times stretched a little so she naps a little longer? is 3 hrs her normal A time? might be easier for people to help you if you could post her daily routine as best as you can and then we can go from there? it may just need a little tweak!
Hang in there!
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Was going to ask the same. 2 hours of day time sleep doesn't seem enough for 13 months and a 12 hour day. Do you think she could handle more A time? 3 hr 45 mins A time after a 1 hour nap could be making her OT which would explain the NWs.
We were on one nap at 13 months but I know a lot would be still be on 2 naps (1 of 1 hour and 1 of 2 hours).
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TBH I've been trying to play around with naps a bit to find the ideal combination so thhey are not 100% consistent. Somepeople have been suggesting shortening am nap to lengthen pm one, but she won't really nap more than 1.5hrs anyway. Yesterday A times were shorter as she'd had a bad night. They're usually 3.5hrs at least. Here is more or less what routine looks like. Problem is when she naps long am and pm they don't seem to fit into day and bedtime ends up being later. She also seems to cope with more A in the afternoon and evening than in the morning... This is what she'd do if I didn't wake up from naps;
7am - wake up
10.30-11.30/12 nap
3/3.30 nap (which ends up being too late if I let her sleep more- than 30 mins)
7-7.30 bedtime (this is what I aim for but it all depends on the afternoon nap)
She never seems to be tired in the evening before 3.30-4hrs A but perhaps I'm just mis-reading signs. TBH she resists bedtime a bit whatever the time is.
I've also tried doing something like this;
7am wake up
10.30-11 nap
2 -3/3.30 nap (she'll often only rest 1 hr at this point :-/)
I'm at a bit of a loss with naps so I'm flitting between letting her nap long in the morning and trying to shorten it, depending on the day. I guess this isn't helping night times. What do you think? ???
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i do think it might work better with a long and a short nap.i think that first routine looks gr8 but i would try and push that 2nd A time so after her shorter nap it isnt so long to bed. so maybe:
7am wake up
10.30-12.00(or even 12.30 if she will do that.)
3.45/4.00 nap for 30 mins
7.30 bedtime.
By doing the 2 shorter naps sge isnt getting a good restfull sleep so the A time after is probably a bit too long,she is getting a bit OT hence the NW.
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I tried something like this today; so she woke up at 7.15 and napped at 11 but only until 12! So now what? Probably won't nap again before 3/3.30 and don't think a catnap will be enough :-/ She is so inconsistent with naps. They could be anything from an hour to two. I think thats why I've had trouble settling with one routine lately; it depends on the day... But I know this isn't ideal. What can I do ???
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mmm,i think she is going to need her A time pushing first thing to get a decent nap.How was her night?if it was good i think she can handle a bit longer.
i think its going to about finding the right A time to get a decent nap.id go for 4 hrs after a good night and see how she goes x
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Last night she slept quite well; 2 NW but very brief - went right back to sleep. So you think nap was short because she was UT? She did take a little while to settle... But in a situation like today what should I do? Its 3pm here and she's showing no signs of being sleepy!When she naps as late as midday I find it veery difficult to get a 2nd nap in :-/
Thanks so much for your help!
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you might find she can even manage 4.15 A,see how she goes,push her to 4.15 if she seems to be coping ok.A 1 hr nap was always UT for us.Be interesting to see what Shiv thinks? im sure Shiv said her lo was ready for 1 nap by 13 months,there could be that and she is getting ready for that but we have to find the right a time to get her to take a good nap.
id try and make the best of what you can today.maybe a car ride or buggy to AP a nap out of her but watch her A time before bed.push too much and she will get her OT NW again x
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She ended up having a 20 min nap yesterday afternoon, until 4.10, and I put her to bed at 6.45. She actually settled quite easily (I didn't think she'd be tired enough) and she pretty much slept through till 6am! This morning she woke up at 6.30 and by 9.30 was dosing off on my lap, but I'm trying to keep her awake longer (my mum came over to visit which helped distract her :-)) Will see how long I manage to stretch A time and hope for the best!
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Sorry am only getting back now!
At 13 months 3.5-4.5 A time is typical. I don't think I would do less that 3.5 for A time at this age as its just not enough to get a good nap. But given that that A time is not getting you a long nap I'd be inclined to go for 3.45-4 hours A time like Lucy sugested. I still kept the A time regardless of nap lenght as I found all the swapping and changing did not help her to get used to the longer A times in the long run and I was getting stuck in a cycle of short naps etc.
At that age our routine was:
8am Wake up (5 hours A time)
1pm Nap (for 2-3 hours)
3.30pm Wake up (5 hours A time)
8.30pm Bed
When we were on two naps we did tend to have a 11 hour night/13 hour day to fit in the naps and the A times necessary to get good naps and DD not fighting bedtime. After the switch to one nap we were down to 11.5 hour night/12.5 hour day.
Have you tried having a few days where you are strict with pushing your A times regardless of nap length to see will body clock get used to it and the naps extend? I think at this age you need to be consistent for 3/4 days to see if a change in A time is going to make a difference.
I do think she is trying to tell you she needs more A time!
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No I haven't really been consistent enough lately...
So today she woke up at 6.30 and had her first nap from 10.35 - 12. Would you suggest another 4hrs A now? If she naps under an hour should I still keep A at 4hrs, even before bedtime? I do think she can handle 4hrs in general but not sure if she ends up getting OT because she doesn't always nap long enough... As you say perhaps a few days of consistency will help things to settle.
If she does nap 1.5hrs in the morning would you suggest shortening pm nap or letting her wake up alone?
Thanks!!
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I'd do next nap at 3.45pm (so 3.45 A time and in bed and ready to sleep for 3.45pm) and let it go for 45-50 minutes but then wake her and then aim for your normal bedtime at 7.30pm (will only be 3 hours A time but with such a short nap hopefully she'll settle ok). Obviously watch her and if she's falling off her feet with tiredness before that put her down a bit early.
This is where I found the two naps really hard. Its hard to fit them both in without ending up with a ridiculously late bedtime IYKWIM? She seems to definately be heading toward 1 nap.
Ideally would you prefer short nap in the am and longer nap in pm or the other way round? Just trying to have a think about a routine for you.
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Yes its really hard to fit it all in!! Ideally I suppose I'd prefer short am and longer pm but don't know if this will suit her best... Really confused now! Whatever will work best for her and get her to that 1 delicious long nap! ;)
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How's the rest of day going?
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She is generally fine during the day; a bit fussy when she gets tired but otherwise good. Yesterday she ended up napping from 4.15 till 5 (wouldn't sleep before that; took her to bed at 3.45 like you said). She then had bedtime at about 8 and slept through till 6.30. Today she had a nap from 11-1. Its now 5.30 and I'm not really going to fit in another nap so will give her an early bedtime, maybe 6.30. What do you think?
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6.30pm sounds good. I tend to not do bedtime before that for my lo but even earlier would work for some....does she tend to do well on very early bedtimes?
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TBH I'm a bit scared to do bedtime before 6.30! I worry she'll wake up too early even though I know its not supposed to work like that. Usually bedtime is somewhere between 7 and 8 unless we're in a situation like today. In the end I put her to bed at 6.15 and she slept by 6.25; she was really tired by then!
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Well done you!!! you are doing really well,that was a gr8 nap!!!! maybe thts the magic time 4.5 A !!! good choice on bedtime xxxx
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Thanks! :) Thing is if I have a 4.5hr A time then 1.5-2hr nap it doesn't tend to leave space for a 2nd nap without a very late bedtime. What should I do then?
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Early bedtimes untill she can handle a bit more A time.once she is established on 1 nap you can beging to gradually push that first A time till you can get a lunchtime nap and a decent bedtime.
some lo's alternate between 1 and 2 nap days for a while so you may find she needs to do that.on 2 nap days you may need to go with a little later bedtime for a while.
Really hope she sleeps well for you tonight.keep us posted!!
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Hi ladies!
Well she slept right through from 6.30 till 6.15 which means I'm feeling nice and refreshed for once! I'm still not going to hold my breath as she never STTN more than 2/3 days in a row. But I'll try to aim for something like yesterday in terms of naps. One thing I've noticed is that in the morning after about 2hrs A time she does get very cuddly and she'd doze off if I let her. If I gently encourage her to play a bit more she'll then handle 4hrs plus A time. Does this sound normal?
I've nearly reached the door now with my chair. How do I actually get out of the door without having a screaming fit?
I'm so pleased with our progress so far, never thought I'd see the day! Thank you all so much for your help and support!!
xxx
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that is so good!!! id try and get her to hold to the 4.5 A like yesterday if you can and pray for a good nap!!!
id move to the other side of the door and use your voice if needs be,hopefully that will help.
my lo would happily doze off a few hrs after waking but i would only get a short UT nap if i let her,so perfectly normal!
well done you :-*
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Thanks! This morning she was really fussy by 10.15 (4hrs A time) so I put her down for nap at 10.30 (4hrs15mins A). Unfortunately she only napped for just under 1.5hrs (until 11.55) so I guess I'll put a little nap in somewhere this afternoon....
Should I try to insist more on 4.5hrs? Don't want to get an UT nap either :-/
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I would insist on at least 4.5 and help her manage the last hour...so walks around the house/garden, playing then 20 minute quiet time singing, reading books. Sounds like she needs help to consistently stretch her A time but needs at least 4.5 hours to get a decent nap. Once she's consistently managing 4.5, you can decide whether or not you want to up it again if you are going to try stick to one nap. I think that was an UT nap today!
Can you AP a CN if necessary on shorter nap days to get you through to a normal bedtime? A few time in switch over we APed a 20 minute CN in the car or buggy just to get us through to bedtime. Although early bedtimes here just meant wake up 11.5 hours later, would be different if she made up for lost day sleep in the night and gave us a 12 or 13 hour night. I was always afraid of encouraging an early wake up so tried as best I could to keep bedtime fairly set.
Glad the GW is going so well! Amazing!! Agree with Lucy, stay outside and used your voice if you need to and go back in if she's upset but then back outside and soothe with voice once she's settled.
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Yes I'll try to get a catnap in the car later. Should ALL A times be 4.5 hrs though or just the morning one before nap?? How about afternoon A or evening if she has a catnap?
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not after a catnap cos she has had less sleep so wont manage such a long A time without gettting OT.at that age my lo could only manage 3/3.15 A after a 30 min catnap.
what did she manage after nap to bedtime last night? That was quite a long one wasnt it?
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She was awake from 1 till 6.30 but she was very tired by 5.45/6; gave her supper, quick bath and put her to bed. She did fall asleep quite easily though and STTN :-)
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So here's the update!
She had a 15 min nap in the car from 4-4.15 and then bedtime at about 7.30. Woke up very briefly at 9.30ish (just needed help with paci and right back to sleep) and then again at 4.45. This time she cried a bit - gave her some water and helped with paci and she settled back within a few mins. She woke up at 7.30.
Now the 7.30 wake up would seem ideal because she can theoretically have her nap after 4.5hrs A from 12-2 and then a reasonable bedtime. Unfortunately though we have a family thing this evening from about 6.30-8.30 so we'll have to put in a nap :-\
I feel a bit annoyed and guilty about it as I'm worried it will disrupt things. The thing is although generally we're very careful to keep to her bedtime and routine, here in Malta we do have social commitments quite often, especially in summer. We've already cut out a lot (used to visit parents a couple of evenings a week etc; now we tell them to come here) and when we're invited to friends in the evening we often get someone to babysit so we won't upset her routine. But there are a few occasions here and there that we can't miss out on, or that we go to if they won't finish too late. Is this OK or will it cause major disruptions? Will it be OK to just put in a little extra nap on these occasions (they're not too frequent; I feel really guilty when we take hwer out after bedtime) :-[
Don't know how it is elsewhere, but here not many babies have routines; a lot of them have bedtimes at 10/11pm, so I'm often considered paranoid and fussy and overprotective!
What do you think? Don't want to ruin the progress we've made! I know I got into this AP mess by being too lax with the routine when she was young :-[
Thanks all for your support! x
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im sure it will be fine.1 time isnt going to make a difference.you might find her night is a bit off or shorter but just make sure you get straight back to it tomorrow.we know she can do it now so it wont be a problem!
enjoy!!! Oh and by the way people think im nuts too with routines and bedtimes but im the one with a happy,well rested lo!!!
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Sounds like a good night. Great to get that later wake up.
Tonight will be fine. We have commitments that often mean our bedtime is later at times maybe a couple of times a month and it doesn't upset things overall. I am conscious to get back on track the next day and have a few days of consistency and I find it works grand overall.
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Today I put her down for nap after 4.5hrs A but unfortunately she only slept 1.5hrs today. Am wondering if the 2hr nap was a fluke. Still I'll keep at the 4.5hrs A time; perhaps she needs a few days to settle?
Thanks! x
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a lot of mums find the nap starts to lengthen as you get into doing just 1 nap,so give it time. x
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We were stuck at 1.5 hours most days for 4/5 weeks and then it lengthened to 2.5-3 hours on its own. Think it takes a while for the A times to get sorted and their wee bodies used to it! We did AP a CN every 4-5 days for those weeks to keep bedtime consistent and OT at bay!
HTH xx