BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: SarahMcNadia on May 12, 2010, 17:10:37 pm
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Hi All,
I'm new to BW and have decided to address my 9.5 month old son's NW issues layer by layer as we are soon making a big move. Anyway, here's my question..
He is almost exlusively BF - not yet established on solid food. Could he be legitimately hungry and need feeding throughout the night? I am so confused by what I've read about this.. it's hard to find relevant information since most babies ARE established on solids by now.
Appreciate the help!
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Hiya!
To try to help answer your question we would probably have to have an idea of your LOs whole day. It can be hunger for instance if he's not taking enough calories during the day.
You say your LO is not yet established on solids: Is there a particular reason for that? What info did you get that is getting you confused? What does his feeding day (solids and breast) look like?
Don't worry, there's plenty of mums here to help try to figure this out with you!
xxxx
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Hi Tay!
Thank you so much for your response! I was getting discouraged! I'm desperate to get my little guy's night waking under control.. I'm extremely sleep deprived (which I'm sure is also contributing to my confusion)!
Okay, his day goes something like this:
0700 Wakes up
0730/0800 Cereal (less than an ounce at this point)
0830/0900 BF
0930 Nap for 1:15 to 1:45 hrs
1100/1130 Veggie Puree (again, just a few baby spoonfuls)
1200 BF
0230 Nap for 1:15 to 1:45 hrs
0300 BF
0600 BF
0700/0730 Bath
0800 BF
0900/0930 Bedtime
At night, he wakes anywhere from 3-6 or more times. If he wakes in the first couple hours, its not usually hard to put him back to sleep with PD (which is how I put him down for naps and bedtime). After the first few hours, however, I have been BFing him because A) he is more difficult to put back to sleep without it, B) I'm SO TIRED that I just want him to go back to sleep (not good, I know), and C) As I mentioned, I'm confused about whether he is legitimately hungry, which is why I haven't cut him off yet. My confusion is from multiple sources I've read and/or heard.. Some saying that hunger does not wake babies, others that he should be sleeping through the night despite the lack of solids, and others still saying he is waking because he is hungry and needs more solids. Also, he always ends up staying in bed with me at some point in the night when I BF him. I always mean to put him back in his crib but I fall asleep and he stays.
Let me say that I DO REALIZE that my actions have helped create this monster. My son WAS a good sleeper, slept through the night at 4 months, but a trip across the country threw him off and my "accidental parenting", not knowing how to quickly correct the problem, has kept this vicious cycle going.
Regarding the late start on solids, I tried for several weeks to get him on solids once he was about 6.5 months, but was having absolutely no luck. He had no idea what to do with it.. just gagged alot and threw up a few times. He's just now figured it out, phew!
I'm just having so much trouble figuring out what to do.. my mind is mush.. When I started using PD a couple weeks ago (he had a boob-sleep association), it seemed to help ALOT. Within a week, his mood improved, his naps were more consistent, and he had two nights where he only woke up twice! But now things have gone sideways again. I keep doubting myself and I find it hard to commit when I don't know what a realistic expectation is of him (hence the question about waking up hungry). I HAVE stuck to PD throughout.
Sorry for going on so much.. I feel like my inner verbal diarrhea is spilling out here.. but I just don't know what to do :(
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((hugs)) You must be very tired, and it's hard not to use AP, especially if it works to a certain extent to get that teeny tiny bit of extra sleep (been there, done that!).
On the good side: if you've been using PU/PD with success, then it might be slightly easier to get things sorted, at least you know that your baby CAN sleep independently and there might be another reason for the NWs.
As for the info you got about NW - my personal experience tells me that babies do wake up from hunger, but it's usually if they're not feeding well during the day (as do adults), but there's a whole load of other things that can cause a baby to wake up - tummy upset, separation anxiety, AP, being cold/wet, not being tired.... and the list goes on. So it's a bit of detective work.
Looking at your LOs eating routine I think there might be some changes you could make to test the hunger theory. There's a couple of things that jump straight at me from your routine that I wanted to ask you about:
- I can see that your LO is on a 3hr BF routine, is that right? Is there any reason for that? The suggestion from Tracy's books is to make a change from a 3hr to a 4hr EASY from around 4 months. The idea behind it is that with a bigger gap between feeds the baby is hungrier and feeds more, therefore allowing for another bigger gap between feeds. It is also supposed to help with the nightime sleep. I managed to transition my DS from a 3hr to a 4hr EASY and I must say that it did make a difference.
It also helps with the solids since it gives time for the LO to actually be hungry for some food.
- also noticed that you feed him solids before BF. Have you tried the other way around?
There are some sample routines on the Forum for babies your age you can look at,
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0
but in general, in regards to eating/feeding, they go like this:
7amBF, 9am breakfast (solids), 11am BF, 1pm lunch (solids), 3pm BF, 5.30pm dinner (solids), 7pm BF then bed. If your LO is still not eating the 3 meals a day you can also do a DF between 10pm a 1pm
I would try to stick to those for a day or two (with the DF) and see if it affects his nightime sleep.
Sorry for going on and on but I just wanted to put as much info as possible to get you started on something.
xxxx
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Tay, you are a lifesaver! I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your help here, really..
I think you may be onto something with the feeding schedule. Yes, I do have him down as BFing every 3 hours, that's been my aim but only because he often wants to be fed even more than that! I knew from reading BW that this is considered too often for a child his age but, again, it was one of those things where I'd gotten mixed information: "he's a big boy, needs to eat more often", along with not having solids established, etc. so I was worried about being wrong and starving the poor child (not that he would starve, obviously, but you know what I mean)! I was also wondering about whether he was a "snacker" but I wasn't sure if the length of his feeds were average or not (they're usually about 5 minutes each, if that). I didn't know how in the world I was going to get him to 4 hours apart but your reasoning (longer gaps, hungrier, more per feed) makes ALOT of sense and will help me persevere where uncertainty has previously derailed my good intentions.
As far as the order of solids and BFing, that's just the way I happened to start, and have kept it up. I am going to try the way you've suggested and see how it goes. I'm feeling so hopeful now, THANK YOU! It's amazing what a little support can do for a person! Unfortunately, I'm living in a situation where I don't have alot of support but that's all about to change with our move (YAY!)..
A couple questions for you: You mentioned PU/PD.. My understanding was that at my LO's age (or perhaps that he has the ability to stand up, I can't remember which now, haha) I should only be doing the PD part - is that right? And regarding the DF: Is it essential that I am getting HIM up and not sufficing with feeding him when he happens to wake up in that period of time (which he always does)? I may be able to answer this one for myself after this post - I'm going to do a little more reading up on it..
Alright, I'm refreshed and ready to get this ball rolling again!
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!
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Continued..
I have figured out the DF question! :)
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I'm so glad to be of help! I know how it feels when you don't have support and feel a bit all over the place, not knowing where to start from. All it takes sometimes is someone giving you a suggestion and you learn your own ways from there.
The fear about starving our children is a very valid one. Not that we would actually starve them, one of the most important parts of our roles at this stage is to feed the children (they don't eat themselves), so we feel it's a huge responsibility!
In regards to the PU/PD - you're absolutely right, if you can work on the PD part and still get her to fall asleep great. The idea is to remove more and more your intervention in getting your LO to sleep.
The DF: I noticed I put on the previous post between 10pm and 1pm, but it's actually between 10pm and 11pm! You shouldn't really leave it until too late. Again, if you manage to get him to take all three solids meals I wouldn't try the DF, but if you haven't thengo for it, even if you have to do it just for a couple of weeks until you have solids well established.
Let me know how your day goes with the change in the feeding routine!
xxxx
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Time for an update:
Sooo, I'm on Day 3 of the 4-hr feeding schedule now and it's been going pretty well. Certainly there's been some crankiness and tears but not as bad as I feared. Unfortunately, I'm not yet seeing results at night time - still waking 4, 5, 6 times. And I haven't been able to break the night feeding habit yet either - I'm just SOOO exhausted. But I'm sticking to the schedule otherwise. I know changes don't happen overnight! We've also had a problem with our naps getting all back-asswards the last couple days (meaning they are happening later than they should and, therefore, not in a proper EASY rotation) and I'm SURE that hasn't helped. We are back on schedule so far today though so, fingers crossed!
We are also now 9 days away from a big move and I expect things to be thrown off again for the week or so before we are settled into our new digs. After that, hopefully, I'll be able to crack down on things and stick to the schedule FULL TIME!
Wish us luck!
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TBH, I would be increasing the amount of solids you give the LO. He needs to have more dense calories as your breastmilk is soon going not have enough in it for him to grow.
If you can get more solids into him, he's not going to want to BF as much because he's getting the calories from elsewhere IYKWIM.
In theory doing this will then help him get into a routine that is more live-able for you and him as he will be able to go the 4hrs between BFs and potentially go o/night without waking for a feed.
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Good luck with the move!
I agree with Deb, focus on the daytime calories which should help with the nightime feeding.
Having said that - is he feeding to sleep? When he wakes up during the night how long is he feeding for?
Xxx
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Canwi, it's funny you should mention upping the solids intake.. I was thinking about that last night and decided to move up to three meals of solids since the little guy really seems to have a hard time between the afternoon and evening feeds. He's gotten really good at taking his cereal and veggies and seems ready for more. I've just been perusing the Solids board to help adjust our feeding schedule for that very purpose! In fact, I was trying, unsuccessfully, to find out how much he should be taking per meal. Is there a rule of thumb on that? As much as he wants?
Tay, he is not feeding to sleep, however, there have been a couple times where he's been falling asleep during his last feed but his eyes are always open when I put him down in his crib. As far as how long he feeds at night, I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know for sure because I often fall back to sleep as he is feeding (which is how we we end up co-sleeping). Some nights are better than others but with all the packing and preparing for the move lately, I haven't gotten any naps in with him during the day, thus, I am extra zombie-like at night. Realistically, I don't expect to conquer my own bad night habits until we are settled into our new home. My goal for now is to do what I can.. working on feeding schedule, solids, PD, etc and hope that it helps everything come together when the time comes.
I appreciate all the suggestions! LOVE THIS PLACE!!!
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This is not the 'be-all-and-end-all" of information on how much to feed a child. But it is research based.
http://www.calgaryhealthregion.ca/pem/PublicSearch?direct=displayPdf&number=605726
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I know what you mean about falling asleep, it's a cycle of tiredness isn't it? You're so tired that you feed the baby lying down, since you're lying down it's easier to fall asleep, then he probably wakes up more because he can feel your body movements...
He might not be even feeding that much at night and that's why he's waking up. Can you try to feed him upright, the first time he wakes up and focus on giving a full feed to see if it makes any difference on the next NW. (also, I would guess that if it does it does mean what Canwi said, it's a matter of daytime calories).
xxx
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Thanks, Tay.. It's so nice when someone really understands that vicious cycle.. I always fear that people think I'm not trying hard enough when I tell them I fall asleep with a kid on my boob.. :p
Okay, I feel like I'm doing everything I can to help get little Mr. Tristan sleeping through the night but we have a saboteur in our presence - DRY AIR!!! Unfortunately, we live in a very dry area (same as you, Canwi) and we've all been stuffed up for the past several days.. not a big deal for us grown-ups but, obviously, a very big deal for LOs. No amount of saline spray or humidifying mist seems to help. The NWs have been especially unforgiving the past two nights. So frustrating! The good news is, we are moving to a much more humid area, just days from now, and I have never looked so forward to humidity! So, while I have no progress to report as of yet, I still feel good about the changes we're making and feel hopeful that with a little more H2O in the air, we'll be successful!
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I always fear that people think I'm not trying hard enough when I tell them I fall asleep with a kid on my boob.. :p
I've lost count of the times I've fallen asleep with DS2 on my boob as he fed better o/night with his reflux. :-[ Don't worry what others think. It's not them that's doing this whole thing!
Hopefully the humidity helps Mr T. :D Good luck with the move!
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Oh, dry air, a stuffed nose and a dry throat are a bad combo for a baby... When are you moving?
Have you tried the first feed upright to see if it changed anything?
xxx
Tay
PS.: I think every mother I know has at one stage let their LOs fall asleep on their bed for one reason or another ;) At least BF also gives YOU the sleepy hormones...