BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Mjaz on May 17, 2010, 09:45:41 am
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Hi Ladies - remember us? Ha ha.
The last time I posted on any board was 3 months ago - we have had 3 splendid months of approx. 3 hours days sleep and 11 hour STTN nights.
2 weeks ago Elijah has a stomach virus - fever/vomiting lasted 24 hours, but his bowels weren't "normal" for a good 10 days. Since then we have really been struggling - I *think* with OT.
He is waking around 4:50-5am no matter what time we get him to bed - have tried as early as 6pm and as late as 7:30. The one recent night he did an 11:15 night was when he had 3.5 hours of naps. I thought I had his OT caught up, but alas...
Here's what's going on in addition to the very early EW - (night sleep has become 9.5-10 hours)
-He's FIGHTING bedtime - last night it took an hour to get him down. So his final A was something like 4.5 hours!
-He will not APOP out of the EW anymore. He seems tired, but also restless and "wired" - like he tries to fall back asleep, but can't - his arms or legs start moving, his eyes pop open, etc.
-For some naps, he wakes around the 45 min. mark, but lays in his crib with his eyes wide open (he's a tummy sleeper) and just makes little grunting noises. He hardly gives me ANY cues for naps anymore - and I wonder if that's an OT sign too?
Tonight he went down with 10 minutes of shh/pat (has never needed this before) and then 45 minutes later was awake SCREAMING. :/ Also woke at 12:30 am screaming. And then was up for the day at 4:50. Which makes getting to a 6:30 bedtime nearly impossible. I'll be looking at nap #1 at 8am - nap 2 at 12:15ish - how do I make it through the day???
Do you feel this is all OT? If he won't APOP for me, how do I catch him up? Could his illness have really thrown us for this bad of a downward spiral?
I'd appreciate ANY thoughts of recommendations. I miss my little well-rested 14-hour/day sleeping baby Smiley THANK YOU. Mom and Dad are LOSING IT :/
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wow, this is very similar to our situation. Your last night sounds just like ours in regards to the wakings and I'm really stumped myself. Interested to hear some thoughts on this...
you are not alone!
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He's FIGHTING bedtime - last night it took an hour to get him down. So his final A was something like 4.5 hours!
-He will not APOP out of the EW anymore. He seems tired, but also restless and "wired" - like he tries to fall back asleep, but can't - his arms or legs start moving, his eyes pop open, etc.
-For some naps, he wakes around the 45 min. mark, but lays in his crib with his eyes wide open (he's a tummy sleeper) and just makes little grunting noises. He hardly gives me ANY cues for naps anymore - and I wonder if that's an OT sign too?
Actually Melinda this smells a bit UT. You know their sleep needs start to shift at the start of 2-1 - which starts around 10 mths but can start earlier for some. What's the routine now and A times? It could be that on the other side of this illness he has increased some A time.
I offer hugs because I know how stinky ongoing EW are, it's great that he had a spell of nice 11 hour nights - let's see if we can get him back there.
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Sounds very similar to our situation too. My LO is 9.5 months old and consistenly wakes at 5-5:30 even though she is clearly still very tired. I put her to bed at 6:45/7:00pm and then she takes a good 45 minutes to fall asleep, and she has about 2 NW's each night (in addition to the 5am EW). So her total nighttime sleep is about 9 hours. She takes 2 naps of about 1-1.25 hrs each.
Curious, what does APOP mean?
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Hi ladies - and hi Wendy :) (did ya miss me?)
Aylien - APOP = Accidental Parenting on Purpose
Wendy, I admit that I almost fell of the chair when you said it sounded UT. Ha ha ha. I have TRIED AND TRIED pushing his A and it ALWAYS backfires.
To be honest, I've had no clue as how to get through the day on 2 naps, when he seems to want a 2:45/2:50 A time. I know it's crazy, but if I push to 3:10 I get a one hour nap where he wakes grouchy. So I ASSUMED I was in an OT mess. What do you guys think? So today I felt I HAD to do 3 naps...
So this is what today looked like:
Wake: 4:55am
A: total 3:04
S: 7:59-9:09 (1:10)
A: total 2:51 (told sitter to follow him)
S: 12:00-1:30 (best naps he's had here in weeks)
A: total 3:42
S: 5:12-5:49 (37) APOP'd (was a mess here)
A: total: 1:54
S: 7:45 (fought bedtime for 30 minutes)
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Just marking my spot, Melinda. And wanted to say that I often think Wendy is nuts (in the best of ways - heehee!! ;)) but perhaps she has a point? I just pushed Austin through that ridiculous OT on Wendy's advice and I must say (fingers crossed!) that I think we're coming out on the other side. Hmm.
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OK, Kate, what did you to push through? I am up for anything! I feel like I am getting OT naps when I push his A - so how can this be UT? I'm so confused :/
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I cut his AM nap to 1 hr. Scared the living you-know-what out of me! ;) Wendy suggested going to 45 min but I started here. The first couple of days I did a 3h A after that and I was still getting PM naps of 1h15 or so (45 min one day) so today I pushed that A to 3h15 and poof - had to wake him at 1.5h. And I've been having the same PM nap struggle you have had for a while now. Sherry Lynn says for chronic EWers (like our boys!) that short AM/long PM is generally better. As of today at my house I'd have to agree. Today was day 4 and it was definitely wonky the first couple of days but it really feels like Austin is back today. He's been happy and cheery and has been babbling himself to sleep consistently for the first time in weeks. :) I do think he was OT but needed less daytime sleep in the end. It sounds totally nuts but I think he needed me to help him cut that daytime sleep so he could really get restful nights back. (Although he was up talking to himself for some unknown amount of time last night - hoping that will pass!)
Big hugs. HTH.
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I don't know if this is a small victory or what - but after that marathon of a day yesterday, he slept 10 hours with no NWs and awoke at 5:45. So at least I know the EW at 4:50 is not habitual. BUT, still a 10 hour night - which is going to make today another very hard day to get through on two naps. Ideas?
Thanks!
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Hi there, ok I will admit to being a bit doolally but nuts might be a strong word ;-)
Sooo ok what is happening at his EW...you say he won't APOP back down so what is he doing? Are you leaving him in his crib to self-entertain or extend that rest time?
Secondly, 10 hours and 3+ day sleep really isn't bad at his age. In fact 13 hours is right smack dab in the norm for LO of 9+ mths. But since he was doing 11 hour nights something is up, amiss and generally needs to be sorted out.
2 hr 45/50 is really what a 6/7 mth old is doing - I forget how old is Elijah's adjusted age? At 9 mths you are looking at 3.25-3.5 A and possibly cutting some day sleep if LO is heading that way. 3 naps are no longer going to help your nights. Consolidated naps is what does it. I really wonder if he's just UT. UT/OT loops are the worst and the only way to get out, as Kate has mentioned, is to push through it.
If it were me I would try:
Awake 5:45
Nap @ 9 - 10:30 (A = 3 hr 15)
Nap @ 1:30 - 3 (A = 3 hrs)
Asleep by 6:30 (A = 3 hr 30)
The final A is longer but he has had 2 good naps under his belt and a shorter middle A to compensate.
It's just a suggestion though :-) Austin is older than Elijah and a bit more ahead with A times so I would hesitate to cut any day sleep just yet. Let's just see if we can get him doing 2 naps consistently with age-appropriate A times.
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Thanks, Wendy.
When he wakes in the morning he is WIDE AWAKE and ready to go. He can play in his crib on his own for up to 45 minutes - which we do every morning. When I try to APOP - and I have tried EVERYTHING - he tries to go back to sleep, but can't - he's so restless he just can't fall asleep for more than a few minutes. I've even tried to feed and rock - which almost always works - but not at the EW.
I know! Elijah was up to 3:15/3:20 before he got sick - which I think is right where he probably should be. This 2:45/2:50 thing is new - and has me wondering about teeth? Would that make sense? Elijah was 3 weeks early - so adjusted he'd be 8 mos, 1 weekish. I tried 3:10 as our first A a couple days ago after a good, long night (the only one in 2 weeks!) sleep of 11:30 and he woke at 30 mm crying. So I backed off...but you are saying I need to just stick to the higher A times and push through it till he readjusts?
I didn't see your routine suggestion till after I put him down for nap one at 3hrs A time, but I will try to stick to the next two As of 3 and then 3.5. I am scared of putting him down at 6:30, for fear he will be up at 4:30 - but I am willing to give it a go again.
Is 3.5 the max you'd do as a last A?
Thanks so much...so appreciate your help.
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Hi there Melinda, teething can reduce A times. Are you medicating before naps and night? If he's teething then take it slow, but I still think you need to do it to get out of this. He's just not tired enough to go back to sleep at the EW. Some babies are prone to OT and will give you kickback when you adjust their routine. They like what they like and aren't a fan of change. So I think often OT is inevitable when you start to push the A time. But it really tends to even out once they are back on track.
I know about early bedtimes being scary. But really I don't think a CN is going to help here. I think if he gets more consolidated sleep with a boost in activity, you might see some improvement.
And yes, beware of a too long last A, very common cause of OT and NW.
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I don't know if he's teething - sometimes I think yes, other times no. Today they don't seem to be bothering him.
OK, with a 3 hour A, he will be going down at 1pm for nap #2. He almost never sleeps 2 hours anymore, so we're looking at - best case - waking at 2:30. That means bed at 6 or a 4 hour A time or a CN. What would you do?
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Hi there, ok I will admit to being a bit doolally but nuts might be a strong word ;-)
Now to me doolally sounds stronger than nuts!! ;) Culture barrier?
What did you decide to do, Melinda? I probably would've gone for bed at 6:15 and hoped for the best.
Glad he at least had a NW-free night last night. Austin needs a chat about that!
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I found myself saying "tickety boo" the other day and LOL thinking of Wendy :)
OK, well, I had a last minute afternoon away from the house and MIL was in charge (OY!) from 12-6. She put him down after 3 hr of A and got a 1:12 nap - I'm guessing UT. So I ran in here, threw him in PJs and started wind down immediately. He was asleep by 6:25 and went down without much of a fight. So- who knows! Tomorrow I am going to try As of 3:15, 3 and 3:30. Kate, did you get any OT naps in response to pushing? Did you just keep the next A the same regardless of the first nap length?
Hope things are go tickety-boo for you last night. Ha ha.
M.
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Hi there Melinda, it sounds ok to me. I will be thinking of both you lovely ladies tonight :-) And hopefully my kid will give me a break!
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Yeah we got tickety poo over here last night. ;) 4 NWs between 10 and 3:45 and then the day started at 5:45. :P It was yucky. Then rushed out of here at 7am to spend the day with a friend in the hospital unexpectedly. He's ok but oy. I had the sitter just do what we did yesterday and we're just pushing on through. He apparently napped beautifully (1h AM woke him, 1h25 PM woke himself) and he down like a dream so we'll see what tonight brings. I got some meds on board just in case that's what the issue was last night. I have been keeping the 2nd A the same but I've had to wake him from that AM nap consistently since I'm shortening it. Haven't gotten a 45 min AM nap despite all the changes, knock on wood.
Hope the early bedtime helps him along. Keep us posted on how those As work for him tomorrow.
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Oh ladies, am I doing the right thing?
Wake: 5:15
A: 3:15
S: 1 hour - woke crying - sh/patted for 15 minutes, but then woke
A: 3
S: 1 hour - woke crying
We're, again, looking at a very long last A time just to get us to 6pm :(
Do I seriously do this again tomorrow?
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Hi there,
I do this this situation rings of UT...however, being so scared of OT it's hard to get out of the UT/OT cycle. I find myself so hesitant to tell moms to increase their babies A by too much in fears of creating more OT :( However, I did push it back a few months ago and I realize that she could handle more A time that I gave her credit for.
It really helps when they spend some of their A time in their crib while you finish sleeping or getting ready. A half hour - 45 minute alone in their crib is not too bad.
I remember my lo waking up at 5:30...I didn't get her until 6:30 and then I wouldn't put her to sleep before 8:45. She gave me a 30 minute nap the first couple of times but then her body adjusted to it and she was able to sleep for 1 hour 5 or 1 hour 10...
Not sure why he's waking at 1 hour crying...it sounds suspiciously like OT but the fact that sh/pat didn't work and he woke could meant UT.
Could you try this routine for a couple more days and see what it gives you?
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Empowered Mama, if you're still following this thread - have you made any headway into the OT/UT question? I don't have time at the moment to read through all 10 pages of your thread :) (I will soon!)
Thanks for checking in, Sarah. E does spend at least 30 minutes in his crib in he morning - usually 45 and then he gets impatient :)
I'm still leaning towards OT. We put him to bed at 6:30 last night and he was up, on the dot, at 7:30 crying hard. Took 30 minutes to get him back to sleep and then he was up again an hour later. Gave him tylenol (teeth?) and rocked him for a couple minutes. Then we didn't hear from him again till 5:30am. Aren't those early NWs notoriously OT?
This morning he seemed tired at the 2:30 mark. I kept the activity low and tried to watch him carefully. Around 3 hr he was rubbing his eyes, so I decided to put him in his crib for very low A - and he started screaming and crying! I picked him up, thinking he was UT and upset that I was trying to put him to sleep - but 10 minutes later, when I went to flip him on his tummy - he again started crying really hard. So we got to the 3:15 mark, but he ended up asleep on me because *I* fell asleep with him in the chair - oy, I'm tired!
He woke up 1:27 later (and woke me) but was not in a good mood - he did not want to play on his own at all - and seemed very whiny. I told the sitter to stick to a middle A of 3 hours - so we'll see.
Any thoughts?
Thanks, ladies!
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Melinda it really seems like it's teeth playing up. The behaviour seems more and more discomfort to me - clingy, whiny, sleep disruption. EW. After a nearly 1.5 hour nap I would expect him at 9 mths to be reasonably rested. Can you medicate him before bed tonight to see if you can bypass early evening wakings? The problem with waiting until he wakes to administer the meds means it doesn't kick in for about 30-45 mins so it's more time of him being awake and being upset. How is he eating through all of this? The sitter you have, is it a sitter who has spent a lot of time with Elijah, does she sense something is going on with him?
I've asked more eyes to take a look here and although I do think he needs more A time, it really seems like teething or something else at play here.
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Thanks, Wendy. Interesting thought, for sure. My DH pointed out that this is similar to what he did at 6 months - and what I did there was follow him for several days - let him sleep, etc - until he was well rested and back on track. Though it seemed like things were wonky for almost 5 weeks - they didn't get better until his bottom two teeth broke through. We had NO idea or indication that he was teething! (aside from being a crab apple)
His eating seems OK - we've noticed that he's eating like crazy in the morning and at night, but not really wanting the 11am bottle or the 12pm solids. Should I medicate him during the day? I did that a couple days ago and Lindsay (the sitter - who watches E every day and yes, knows him very well and yes, what she is said to me is that he seems tired) said she had to put him to sleep he was so out-of-whack. A time was 2:18 (!) and he slept for 2 hours!
Is it OK to medicate every night even though I'm not sure he's teething? LOL. Oh my word, Elijah may indeed be an only child :)
Thanks, W.
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Hey M - sorry to hear things are rough right now :( We are still working on ours - up and down, up and down. Can't say that our problem is solved, but I am also entertaining the thought of teething, though DS seems quite happy and unbothered ATM.
However, I do think there is some OT mixed in there (for us I mean). I'm going to give W2S a shot for the EW and see if it makes any difference.
I know how you feel about the meds....I really hate to give them when I don't know for sure if he needs them, but they can be such a mystery sometimes!
big hugs - we are in the same boat :-\
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Just an update - yesterday I was out all day and had the sitter with Elijah. I was fed up with his 4:45 EW, so I told her to follow him and to let him catch up on sleep. It was sort of a mess of a day, but he slept a total of 3:40. I got an 11 hour night last night! 5:45 never felt so good :) Today I tried to follow him again, and got a 1:40 nap after an A 0f 3:05 and 1:20 after a second A of 2:55. That took us to 2:45. I tried for sleep at 6:30, but got the usual fight - till 7:05 :/ I don't get what's going on with BT - why is he so crazy? He moves all over the crib, needs shh/pat to fall asleep, etc...NONE of which I see at naps. Could he possibly be UT and need a really long last A?
EM- have you tried giving him a catch up day? Also, I think I saw somewhere that he eats 2 oz of food per solids meal? Is that right? I may have some ideas there... I feel like E's intake was key in getting him on a good solid STTN routine at 6 mos. Any progress?
M.
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Hey M - glad to hear your LO is catching up a bit. Been thinking about you two and have a few thoughts...
I figured out that my DS was massively OT. Last night was the worst night yet - many NWs, and an awful 1 hour inconsolable screamfest from OT city. Someone gave me the tip to try to shorten his As to catch up. I was afraid he would give me short naps, but he proved me wrong. I was able to shave off 45 min of A time today to keep our day at 12.5 hrs. Though I know he still needs to catch up more, I *think* we are making progress.
We have been having a struggle at BT as well, and for us I know it is OT. DS gets really hyper and wired before bed which is a sure sign of OT here. Does he seem really upset at BT? I'm sure it could go either way - OT or UT - my best clue is his disposition.
What are your thoughts on solids? He seems satisfied with 2oz at each meal - sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. DS is 8 months ATM.
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Yep, E gets really hyper and wired before bed. Hmph. He's not upset - he's crazed at BT! I think I am going to try a longer, more mellow wind down tomorrow and see if it makes a difference. Oy. So many pieces to the puzzle. Sent you a PM re: solids, EM.
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Thanks M! Very helpful info....
Let us know how the WD goes - hoping you have another great night :)
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Surely! Had a very weird day with E today. The perfect A time that we had yesterday of 3:05 backfired and we got a 1:20 OT nap! Never thought 1:20 would be OT, but he was not a happy camper when he woke. And then his next A was like 2:40 b/c he fell asleep in the car. When I picked him up he kept sleeping - so I put him in his crib and he slept for 1:45. WHY IS HE SO TIRED??? 10.5 hour night last night - so not bad, but still not back to "normal"...These low A times just can't get us through a full day - so I have no clue what to do :/ But longer A times are making him an OT mess...WE ARE STUCK! Ha.
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Argh, Melinda. Big hugs. It's funny, I feel like when you get stuck in these loops it always seems that E is really just super OT. Do you think maybe he's having a GS? I wonder if he's growing and that's why he's so darned tired?
If it makes you feel any better we had a miserable night and a total of 1.5h of naps today. :( BT at 6pm. Haven't done that in months!!
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OK, here is my theory - when E was sick and this all went wonky - he was probably really tired and somehow didn't get enough sleep and got into this OT cycle. Since then I have not been really successful at getting him out of it completely. I've caught him up for a day or two, but he seems to be very susceptible to OT right now - my guess is from teeth or GS, like you said Kate.
He woke from his second nap at 2:00pm yesterday! Because I had to take someone to the train station around 4:30, E fell asleep for about 17 minutes in the car. There wasn't much I could do. I tried for bed at 6:30 and he fought it till 7:48. Absolutely crazy. And then was up, to the minute, at 5:48. So, for us, these 10 hour nights and inability to APOP in the morning HAS TO BE OT. Plus, after just 30 minutes of being up this morning, E was yawning.
I'm going to follow him today, try to get good, long naps and then try bed at 6pm. Hopefully we make it. That's our biggest issue right now - if he wakes from his second nap at 2ish - do I put him to bed at 5:30 or what? I think I may actually have to go for it, b/c obviously the little CN is NOT working.
What do you think?
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I've always found super early bedtimes to be surprisingly helpful. I say that and A woke up at 5am this morning from his (after multiple NWs but 11ish in the end so pretty good despite it all, I guess :P) so it does make getting through the next day annoying. But I just don't see what else you can do but offer him sleep at this point. I think your theory makes a lot of sense. Keep us posted on the day. ;)
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Aren't those early NWs notoriously OT?
Is that right? I didn't know this. My LO frequently has early NWs (after an hour, then after another hour), so I am wondering if maybe OT is my problem. I am struggling with EW's (usually around 5am). To try to deal with the EW's I've tried pushing back her morning nap. Right now this is the routine we're working with:
5:15 awake
9:30 morning nap (1hr 15 mins usually)
1:45 afternoon nap (1hr to 1hr 15 mins)
6:30 bedtime routine
7:00 to bed
7:30 asleep with 3 NWs on average before EW
Total sleep is typically 11-12 hours. It seems no matter what time I put her to bed, she always falls asleep between 7:15 and 8:00. I’ve tried bedtime as early as 6 and as late as 7:30. LO is barely 10 months old. She’s typically happy throughout the day so I’m never sure if I’m dealing with OT, but if early NW’s are a sign of OT, maybe we really have OT. In that case, I’m thinking I need to try an earlier bedtime (6 or 6:30) and see if we make any progress after a week of consistent earlier bedtimes.
Any thoughts?
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Hi A -
Yes, NWs in the early part of the night are notoriously OT. As is the EW. And for us, so is the 1:15 nap. My LO is about 9.5 months old and could in no way shape or form handle an A time of 4:15 in the morning.
If I were you, I would follow his cues for a few days - put him down when he seems tired - let him sleep - let him catch up. It's the ONLY thing that ever helps my LO.
We had a 12 hour night last night after two great 1:35 naps and a 6pm bedtime. I was ecstatic, even if we did have a weird 2:30 NW (which I think was teeth/pain related).
But then today my MIL watched him for all of 2 hours and gave him a completely UT nap of 50 minutes. I had to sneak in a CN a couple hours later because he was a wreck and now he is in full meltdown mode for BT. It's impossibly hard to get him out of this OT when ONE little nap throws him back into the cycle. We will, for certain, have early NWs, a 10 hour night and an EW.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I think your LO is OT :( Good news is - if you can get him caught up you will probably be looking at much better nights!
Hope that helps!
Melinda
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M - Oy! I'm so glad you had a good day and night yesterday but then today - ugh. I hope he gets down for you soon and stays that way!
Aylien - I'm with Melinda. Sounds like your LO is OT. I'd break the rules for a few days and go with her cues. If that doesn't work, though, you may need to think about cutting the AM nap. This is the age when some start to move to 1 nap (it's a long process :P) so you may find that will help. That's what we're working on over in our house and it's so much fun! ::)
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Sorry, A, don't know why I said "him" the whole email - I'm just OT myself :)
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Melinda and Kate (it is Kate, right? I LOVE your name, I would've named our DD Kate if only DH would've gone along with it!), thanks for the advice. So basically ditch the routine and let her sleep whenever she's tired to catch up OT? I'll give it a shot over the next few days and let you know how it goes. Thanks!
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Yup, that's what I would do! (And yes it's Kate. :D I love it too!) If that doesn't help we'll think about cutting her AM nap. Keep us posted.
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Yep, I'd follow her cues for several days and let her catch up on sleep - let us know how that goes.
Kate, hope you are hanging in and getting some rest. I think we've both become OT ourselves :/ And the heat DOES NOT help.
So I finally hit the UT nap today! 35 min - totally happy - refused to go back. So we had a 3 nap day again. And a UT BT b/c I didn't really know when to put him down after his last nap was from 3:45-4:30? So I guess I need to see what happens tonight and then take tomorrow from there.
I miss our routine!!!!!!!!!
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We had a good night last night (finally!) but then the sitter didn't read my note (and all the underlining under the AM nap time!) and so his naps weren't what I wanted them to be. So aggravating. And yup, I am totally OT myself and man is it HOT!!!! :P I am about to go up to my air conditioned bedroom and go to sleep, thank gosh. Hoping the sitter's blunder doesn't make for a crazy night.
Ugh. Sounds like another wacky day over there. Maybe he's finally caught up and you need to start thinking about (gasp) cutting a nap? Just a thought.
k
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Well, it looks like E might be caught up on OT finally. He did a first A time of 3:17 and did not fight going down. Phew. Been sleeping 1:20 - will wake at 1:30 if need be. I know I may (gasp) need to start cutting naps at some point, but for now I feel like I simply need to get him back into a routine of sorts - with 2 solid naps. He needs to be able to withstand longer A times or cutting will make his bedtime at 4pm - ha ha ha. I'm hoping that we're getting back to more age-appropriate A times!
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Absolutely. Can't cut the nap until he's caught up on A times and able to do his 2 naps with some regularity. Hopefully this helps the nights and then with good nights you can work on A time.
Poor kid, he got into a bit of a hole there. Well dug out mummy!
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Yes, quite the hole!
I wonder about his 1:25 nap this morning though. He didn't wake happy, as usual. Wendy, is it possible to have 1:20-1:25 OT naps? Guess we'll see how his second A time is. Hmph.
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Hi Melinda, for us it was. UT naps were very rare in our house and came out at weird numbers like 35 mins or 55 mins, normally an hour or less. 1 hr 20 was like he was just slightly OT and didn't finish up a cycle and he always woke crying - otherwise you could set a clock by his 1 hr 30 naps.
I should also add that Finn always had a shorter morning A time until I pushed him hard. He was still doing like 3 hours when we went into the 2-1 because he always gave shorter nights.
I think I would ride it to be honest, don't push that morning A until he's doing a solid nap and being a bit happier when he wakes. But I don't think I would pull back on A time either just yet. A 1 hr 20 nap is still restorative enough at his age since he has another nap coming up :-)
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Yup. Sounds like what we have too - the only time I've been sure of a UT nap is when he does 35 or 50. Everything else short of 1:30 seems OT to me. Boo.
I hear you on keeping him at that A. I am just SO WORRIED about OT after the last couple of weeks on nonsense we've struggled through! ((deep breath))
Thanks :)
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Sounds like you have a plan, Melinda. I hope E just plays along!! Let us know how nap 2 goes. :-*
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Nap 2 was great - 1:35 and woke happy - but his A time was 2:40. The nanny said he was burrowing on her - trying to go to sleep - so she put him down. What is with this child?
So today's total looked like:
A: 3:17
S: 1:25 (seemed OT)
A: 2:40
S: 1:35 (seemed good)
Sooooo he woke from his last nap at 2:30. I had him in bed by 5:30, in hopes he would be asleep by 6. He fought bedtime for an entire hour, finally falling asleep at 6:30. It's like the child is possessed. He was crawling, climbing, rolling, babbling and laughing and my all time favorite, licking the sheets. Umm...so I'm beginning to wonder - surely BT was not OT, right? UT? Or is it simply a developmental stage? What do you think? Battling BTs like this is so frustrating. Mom is T-I-R-E-D.
:)
M.
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SOS!
2 hour NW last night. Totally UT. It was an APOP-fest and nothing seemed to work. He was just awake. Only got 9.5 hours of sleep.
I cannot believe this. Here I got 2 solid naps - and was thinking it would be a good night. Oh, sill me.
WHAT DO I DO NOW????
M.
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Hey Melinda... I've just done the 45 min AM nap followed by the longer mid day nap! Pretty nervous about how it will go tonight but we've had a few early morning stirrings so I just decided to go for it! Will send you a message later...
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thanks, E - will be anxious to hear how it goes
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oh dear - so sorry M. I really hope you get things sorted. We are in the middle of a ruckus too - heading to the doc today to see if anything is going on. DS seems really off track.
Big hugs....
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Dost mine eyes deceive me? Melinda!!!!!!!!! I've been thinking about you lately, I stumble onto the NW board for a quick glance and lo and behold I find you! :-* Offering some *hugs* and sleepy vibes for Mr. E :)
Out of curiosity, do you know what his temperament is? Is he at all textbook?
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Hiiiii Sara! So nice to "see" you :) How are you???
Well, little Elijah *used* to be angel- HA HA HA - now I'm thinking more like "pain in the rear" - JUST KIDDING, of course. He is a mix of angel and textbook - maybe more textbook these days.
So to give you an update from EASY hell:
Wendy, you're suspicion about teeth is confirmed. We went to our 9 mo. appt. yesterday and the doctor helped me pry his mouth open long enough to see what was going on and we saw FOUR coming in on the top - all right there - doc felt within a few days they should be through. So hopefully that explains some of this craziness.
We had a busy, out in the world day yesterday and I was hoping E would fall asleep in the car for his second nap. Well, he did, but was up after 25 minutes! He would not go back for the rest of the afternoon... Sigh. So he had a 6:30 bedtime, after an hour fight and was up at 5am - WIDE awake - refusing to even think about going back. Looks like we have another incredibly long day ahead of us. Oy.
What should my game plan be with teeth in the equation? Do I medicate during the day? Will that make him too tired? Follow his cues? Let him sleep?
Thanks...and great to see you Sara :)
M.
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Oh, Melinda. So sorry you're on the teething train. I feel like I LIVE there and it's no fun! I *try* not to medicate during the day but I will do it before naps if he's really bad. I also use Hylan's teething strips during the day. It's never as bad during the day so those seem to work, although they're useless at night when he's really struggling.
I also let him sleep longer during the day since it seems that NWs are inevitable for us with teething so he may as well get some sleep. Even if I don't! Remind me of that in a couple of weeks when we're getting more teeth and I wonder if it's routine related, ok? ;)
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Yup 4 will do it. Poor kid. There is really nothing you can do when they are teething like that - 4 at once must be really bothersome. Finn likes to do his in 4's.
Agree with Kate, we let Finn sleep however he wanted when teething was at the worst. We never found that the medication made him sleepy though, there are no sedative qualities to it as far as I am aware. But I guess it's dependent on the LO. In any event, I would continue to give Tylenol in the day and alternate with ibuprofen if you need to. Definitely ibuprofen at night with a DF of meds about 6 hours after they go to bed. Remember it's a very short time in their life needing these meds - and there is a large safety buffer built into these suspensions so I think they are quite safe.
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Hi ladies,
I'm hoping I may have kept E out of the OT hole even though he had a tough weekend with MIL. He had a whopping 3.5 hours of sleep today. His teeth are starting to break through and they were very obviously bothering him today. Poor guy. I guess I'm going to wait till they are through to start thinking about pushing his routine again, huh? Cross your fingers for our night - the UT NWs are the worst!
TS,
M.
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Oooh,wow that is a big nap day, huh? Hopefully it's what he needed with the grandparent-induced OT plus teething. I hope those teeth pop through soon! No sign of them yet?
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Yeah, he seemed exhausted. But we got a 10 hour night and an EW of 4:55 :/ UGH. I'm not sure what to do! It's like he needs to cut back on his day sleep, but can't handle the A times...I was thinking if I cut his naps today his day would look like:
W: 4:55
A: 3:05 (this is the highest A where I don't get an OT nap)
S: 8-9?
A: 3:15? (probably too long)
S: 12:15-1:45
Then a 4.5+ last A? Doesn't make a lot of sense... I mean, even if I don't cut a nap today, he's going to have a long last A. The only reason we made it a decent BT yesterday was b/c he had such long naps.
Ugh! His teeth are right there - can see the whites of each - they just aren't through...I thought today would be the day, but they're still under the gums just a bit. Poor baby.
What should I do ladies???
M.
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Hi Melinda, I'm finally able to get back on the forum, woo hoo. Was blocked all weekend, apparently having a husband for an administrator doesn't mean squat lol
Sooo until he can handle the A times I think you need to keep him on his 2 naps and not cut anything yet. I think he's EW because of his teeth really. Can you get him back down at that hour, either with food or some kind of APOP? Rocking, anything? You will need longer nights and to slowly get his A times increased before cutting day sleep I think.
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No, once E's up - he's up. We've given up trying to get him back. I don't know why, but he will no longer APOP back - no matter what we try. I agree we need longer nights in order to tweak his routine - I'm just not sure how to get there without trying to cut day sleep. It was nice that he did 3.5 hours of day sleep, but I think that's why we had a 10 hour night - b/c he wasn't tired enough to sleep longer? I don't know, though. I guess there's not much I can do today...
Thanks,
M.
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I totally know where you are coming from as we went through this with Finn so often. This is what we did so it may or may not work for you:
First I would not get him up before 6 no matter what. Even if you sit in there and shush/pat or just shush from afar or lay on his floor and just keep repeating 'it's sleepy time Elijah', keep reinforcing that it is night time and sleep time and we don't socialize before that. He may cry or he may just self-entertain but he has to learn that it's just not time to get up.
Then I would do set naps for a few days and a set bedtime until you can get him back on track:
Nap 1 hr @ 9 - 10
Nap 1.5/2 hrs @ 1 - 2:30/3 (try to extend this nap at all costs)
Bedtime asleep by 6
I really think the biggest issue is getting him back to 11 hours at night and stabilizing him on increased A times before you can get your day pushed to a more reasonable hour. With teeth in the mix it's not an easy road but you'll get through it :-)
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M, I would try the routine Wendy posted for a few days. You're right where we were a week or 2 ago, teeth and all. It's the worst! :P But in the end going to a 1h nap helped us for a few days and got us a couple of better night so we could go to 45 min in AM which is what we've been on for a week or so now and it seems to be working. I know he needs to be able to handle longer As to get less daytime sleep but with A, at least, I really have to push him hard through it to cut the daytime sleep. Can't be subtle with my kid, I seem to be learning. ::) But E has always had lower A times so, hmm. Anyhow, I guess I'm back to my original point which is that I would follow those set naps for a few days no matter what happens and see how he does. Hugs.
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Interesting thought about not getting him up before 6am. We had tried that for some time, but sort of gave up, b/c it was so frustrating - we'd shh/pat and he'd just keep trying to roll over and play with us. So we've been leaving him in his crib till 6, but allowing him to play by himself b/c we were just so frustrated with him :/
I can do the set naps - but I think my problem is being so afraid of OT. We were just in an OT hole for almost 3 weeks and I guess I'm just terrified of going back in. If he wakes at 5am and nap one isn't till 9 - eeee - I don't know, I'm just worried. He barely makes it 3 hours now.
I'm honestly even more worried about the 6pm bedtime - as, best case, that means he'll be up at 5. Last time we tried an early BT, we were up at 4:15 :/ Sigh.
Yesterday's A times worked well in a weird way - his first one was 3:20, but he did a 1:20 OT nap - not bad though - he was pretty happy. And then his second A was 2:45, I guess b/c of the first slightly OT nap? And he slept 2:10 on that one. So interesting, isn't it? My little monkey and his low A times...At least that got us to 3:15 and we did bedtime at 6:45. It seems he's tolerating the first A being pushed more than the middle one. Because he had a good 1:30 first nap, I pushed him to 3:15 for the second nap and got a one hour OT nap. Boo.
Do you think I should move ahead with this - say tomorrow - or wait for these little teeth to make it through? I appreciate your help, ladies!
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So if he tolerates the first longer A it should get you in a good place for a 9 a.m. nap. Really napping him at this age before 9 is just going to compound EW. Honestly, he will think 'well I'll just go back to bed in a bit' and no incentive to stay in bed for those 11 hours. But of course you don't want a seriously OT kid on your hands so you have to do what's best :-)
I know the 6 bedtime is scary but if you are able to get a well-rested kid then you can keep working on those A times - and soon you can jump to 6:30 and then an even more appropriate bedtime. Pushing bedtime later in favour of a later wake up only works when LO can handle the A times, otherwise it just creates more OT to clean up the next day IYSWIM.
He's very very sensitive to A times which is why I am thinking a longer morning A but with a first low key hour may be ok for him. Then a shorter middle A and a reasonable A to bedtime. He's shown he can and will do a longer second nap which is a good sign. And set naps works well for kids that are sensitive, I know from experience since we live with one of those kids ;-)
Not getting him up is really important because it will just set his body clock and rhythms if you get him up start activities, expose him to light, etc. If he plays on his own that's fine. Finn has learned to self-entertain, we can't make him sleep, but we can show him that EW is his own time, there won't be any socializing so he might as well go back to sleep ;-)
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FWIW, Melinda, I was terrified of the set nap so 'late' in the morning but Austin handled it like a champ. If I tried to do that kind of A anywhere else in the day he'd be a disaster but since I leave him in the crib until, ideally, 6:45 (I'm a mean mommy! Although if he's really getting mad I do get him out...), he has a lot of time in the dark on his own if he wakes at 5:15 or 5:30. So that does make the A time 'feel' 'a bit shorter.
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I see what you're saying. So currently what we do in the morning when he wakes is we let him alone for as long as possible - he usually flips himself onto his back and babbles for 15 min. or so. He then usually starts whimpering and fussing, so we go in and give him some toys - turn on the night light so he can see his toys - and then leave him there for another 30 minutes or so. Sometimes we have to sit him up - other times he'll play lying on his back. Is this acceptable or should I spend that hour forcing rest - shh/pat or rocking or? I also don't really want him to think it's cuddle time...
Amen. He really IS sensitive to A times. Sigh. I will see how tonight goes. As soon as I have a solid night, I will start pushing that first A. When I tried to do that on the initial advice of this post, I got really awful OT naps. Like up at 30 minutes screaming and not going back to sleep. So I think I will have to push slowly and see what he can handle. I know he can do 3:20, even though that gives us a slightly OT nap of 1:20. But like you said, Wendy, that seems like enough sleep to get him to the next nap.
Thanks, ladies. Let me know what you think about the morning routine and I will change it up tomorrow morning if need be.
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I wouldn't force rest if I were you. I think that would be like banging your head against the wall! I would just leave him to it as you do. When A gets fussy I do the same thing, just give him a couple of quiet, nonstimulating toys and leave again.
Let us know how the night goes and the first A time....Good luck.
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OK, so maybe we're progressing a bit over here.
E went to sleep at 6:20 and woke at 4:55 - so 10:35 (better than 10!) but what amazed me was he was crying a little vs. having a party - so I shh/patted and he went back to sleep. The sleep seemed very light - he never opened his eyes, but he stirred a lot. So I kept shh/patting till 5:30 and then let things be. He slept til 5:55. So more or less, 11:30 of sleep for the night. Woo-hoo.
First nap was planned at 9, though he fell asleep quickly around 8:55. He woke at the 35 mm, but went right back with shh/pat. I know 35 min is usually UT for us, but it didn't seem UT - as I never have success extending those naps. So maybe OT? And now I'm going to wake him. Ha ha.
Thanks for the help, ladies. And WENDY! So good to "see" you!
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That does sound like progress!! Yay, Elijah! (And Melinda, too, of course! ;)) Let's see how this new routine treats him.
PS - Yes, Wendy, I thought the same thing!! ;D
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I take it back! No progress! Ha ha. OK, so when I woke him at the 1 hour mark he broke out into crying hard. He seemed angry. WTH? I got him up anyway, but an 1:30 later he was acting extremely tired - rubbing eyes, getting very cranky, etc. I asked MIL to keep him up to 1, but I don't know that he's going to make it. Do you think maybe this is all b/c of his teeth and I just need to put any changes on hold till they're through?
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Honestly I would try to stick to something rigid for a while, it will be hard for a few days but then he'll get through it, you both will :-) Finn hated/hates being woken and that hasn't changed. I was so glad when we moved to 1 nap because there was no more poking the beast early out of a nap.
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OK, Wendy! I'll stick to it! I can't wait for one nap, to be honest. I will pray that MIL puts him down at one and he takes a somewhat decent nap - HA!
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I know it's hard, so so hard. Finn teethed for months, he now has all teeth except for the 2 year molars, phew. So we had to push ahead regardless because being on a routine that didn't suit him AND teething was just compounding all the issues. So we went though a rough OT patch but then it evened out and things got infinitely better. But I had to stick it out rather than switching things up on him every day. He responded very well and my hope is that Elijah will do the same. If you really feel that short naps are going to be an issue then I would be tempted to accept shorter nights for keeping the 2x 1.5 hour naps until you see an improvement in his mood/behaviour. Lots of LO's still need max day sleep but shorter nights until they reach the age appropriate A times and can drop some of the day sleep.
Really the way to keep them up is to go for max activity and anything that will physically exhaust him. So letting him crawl/cruise/etc. around the house. Take him into different areas that he doesn't normally go. If it's nice, the backyard or park is always a good bet. Keeping him busy busy busy. It helps distract them from teeth and also get past their usual tired times. I used to do a really long lunch too, he couldn't' really sleep if he was eating lol We would use that time to introduce a new solid, or practice sippy cup, or something like that.
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Oh dear Lord - I don't think I can handle another rough OT patch :/ Let's hope we don't go through another one! That makes sense about needing day sleep till he can handle more A time - I'm just sort of stumped as to why he's so stuck (in love?) with these low A times. Hmph. I will try this new routine to the best of my ability and see what happens. If we start getting too OT and naps are consistently short, then I'll know I'm going to have to let up and accept his short nights.
I LOL when I read this because before I left for work I started his lunch at 11:15 - thinking I'd make lunch a full 45 minutes :) The child loves to eat, so I thought a long lunch would be good - but he was so cranky he was throwing his food on the floor :/ Maybe part of the problem is his crawling refusal. Ha ha. He is attempting to WALK without the crawling - which he can't really do without my help. We went to the park this morning to swing and took an hour walk through the woods first thing this morning. I hope I am giving him enough activity. TBH, *I* need to get out and keep him distracted when he's cranky - I can't be cooped up in the house when he's like that - drives me mad!
This seems like a tough, tough age for routine - teeth, frustration from inability to move, etc...Thanks for your guidance!
Will update you when I get home and see what my MIL has done :)
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Melinda, I think that plan is good - try sticking to this for a few days and if it seems he is spiraling out of control, pull back and deal with short nights. I'm with Wendy that the wrong routine + teething was just disastrous for us. Thankfully we got into the right routine just as the teeth popped through so the stars aligned, finally. :D Hoping they line up for you, too!
Amen to activity. I *have* to get A out of the house every day, just to do something. Crawling really does help so much, though. Hopefully E will sort that out soon. A didn't work it out until he was just about E's age. It was like an overnight sensation, one weekend he just got it and then a few days later that was it! Now we're exhausted from chasing him around all day but I do think it helps overall. If E doesn't crawl, though, maybe he'll just sort out the walking thing soon. Here's hoping.
Keep us posted....
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He slept 1:15. Don't know if that was OT - UT - right on - or what - as I didn't see him wake.
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I was pulling my hair out from 9 - 11 mths so it is a rough age. But then the stars really do align and things seem to magically get better (in some ways, harder in others). I think 1 hr 15 is one of those 'who knows' lengths...I used to think Finn was always OT but in retrospect sometimes I think he was UT and we kept getting stuck in UT/OT loops. He can now handle a lot of A time and was able to move to 1 nap at 12 mths without huge incident, so sometimes they are really a big question mark and we just have to set some boundaries for them and plunge ahead.
If I had to guess, I would say that it was slightly OT but not bad in the grand scheme. 2 hrs 15 isn't a bad amount of day sleep really, I suspect 2 hr 30 - 2 hr 45 is going to be the magic number for daytime sleep and probably 11 at night when he's settled. Or he may need to stick with 3 daytime for a while and do a 10-10.5 hr night. This is what Finn seems to like and has not really gotten past that.
Hang in there Melinda!
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I know it's way too early to be singing zippity-doo-dah, but we had an 11.5 hour night and a struggle-free bedtime. It's been WEEKS. I am going to recreate yesterday as best as I can.
Thanks ladies!
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Good luck Melinda, let's hope this is the upward trend we've been hoping for :-)
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I know it's way too early to be singing zippity-doo-dah, but we had an 11.5 hour night and a struggle-free bedtime. It's been WEEKS. I am going to recreate yesterday as best as I can.
Thanks ladies!
I say zippity-doo-dah away!! That's great! Here's hoping that the magical cutting of the AM nap is what he needed...
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So do I get nervous over today's OT naps? This morning's wasn't that bad - he woke at the 30mm, but resettled himself immediately. The afternoon one, though - oy. When I put him down he started screaming. I had to hold him for a few minutes and then tried again - he went to sleep, but woke at 38 mm screaming. I had to APOP the rest of the nap - he was that upset...
Do you think he just needs a few more days on this routine to sort of figure it out or am I heading into OT territory?
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So we had another 11.5 hour night - with a wake at 6am - which was just glorious. I had to work this morning longer than usual, so our sitter was with him from 7-1. She said he was incredibly fussy and not himself. She knows the 9/1 nap routine and has totally been on board - but she said that this morning he wouldn't eat and kept try to nuzzle and fall asleep on her. When she saw he was falling asleep playing on the floor, she brought him to bed - A time was 2:15! She woke him at an hour (following my new routine rules - blah) which I probably would not have done. His still in his second nap - but she said he seemed miserable and sleepy before that nap, too. She said the minute he hit the crib he was asleep. Do you think this is all teething related? He couldn't be OT after an 11.5 sleep, right?
Thanks, ladies. Not sure what I'll do if he wakes from this nap at 1:30! CN, I'm guessing? Oy.
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Yes I would say it's his teeth or he's fighting off an illness. Or a growth spurt of some kind. It seems a bit more complex than just straight OT.
The other thing is that sleep begets sleep, so all these longer nights could be causing him to crave the sleep. Especially if he was OT before. That's why it's best to stick to something a bit rigid until his body clock gets used to it.
If he wakes at 1:30 I would probably do a short CN - like 15 mins, a drive, a kip in the stroller, a short nap on you, just to tide him over to an earlier bedtime. CN can sometimes be counterproductive at this age but let's see how he gets on.
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Phew. I was hoping you'd agree it was his teeth. (I'm hoping he's not getting sick!) I think he may have forced one to break through, as he was grinding his teeth together like crazy tonight - and I could hear the two teeth making contact. I hope it's more than straight OT! Today was MISERABLE. I had to do a short nap on me in the rocking chair - ended up being 20 minutes b/c *I* fell asleep. Tried for a 6:15 bedtime, but he fought it till almost 7. Sigh.
Thanks for your support - I don't know what I'd do without it! :)
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Big hugs, Melinda. Sounds like how teething goes over here - misery, misery, and more misery with some OT whipped cream on top. So much fun!! I hope that one popped through and that the other one follows.
Sending you sleepy night vibes....
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Oh my word, Kate, how lucky was I with the first two teeth when we didn't even know they were coming and then all of a sudden - there they were! These two (four?) are definitely bothering him. I even gave him motrin during the day - he was just too sad not to.
Thanks for the virtual hugs - I need 'em :)
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Yup, that's a sign of a bad day for us, too, when the Motrin makes a daytime appearance! :P The only good thing if there are 4 in there is that it will be less misery later! :-*
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Hi there, yes for the molars we had to do alternating Tylenol and Motrin...it was bad. Some kids are really really sensitive to teething, others aren't bothered. And some are in the middle somewhere. It definitely sounds like teeth to me to be that grotty in the day as well as sleep disturbances. It could be that a whole bunch are actually shifting at once for him. Let's hope they come through soon! Sending some hugs your way!!!
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Hi ladies,
Sorry to continue rambling on this thread :0 but I wondered what you guys thought...So E didn't have a great night last night, probably b/c of the CN. He slept 10.5 hours. So his days are sort of looking like this:
wake - 5:30-6
A- 3:00-3:30
S: 1 hour - wake him at 10am
A- 3:00
S: 1:15 - wakes on his own at 2:15pm
asleep - 6-6:30
So this last A is HUGE depending on how much he fights BT. I guess we're lucky that so far in that it's resulting in decent nights - incl. 3 11.5 nights. Today the sitter put him down at 12:45 and he slept till 2:05 - which is even earlier than usual :/ She said he was exhausted - so he is definitely not handling the 3 hour middle A very well. I think that 1:15 nap is OT.
So what do I do?
Can I offer 1:15 at his first nap - since that seems to be pretty solid? And then see if that helps him get to the next nap - and cap that at 1:30 if he makes it past the 1:15 mark? Or do you think this might muck everything up?
It's hard to tell his mood right now due to these danged teeth that will not break through!
Thanks!
M.
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I would actually stretch the 2nd A. I wonder if the 1:15 you're getting is UT. I would try 3:15 if it were me. That might get you a longer 2nd and solve the long 3rd A problem. What do you think?
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I do agree with Kate, I think he may seem really tired but it's only because of the teeth and in reality he probably needs a longer A to get a longer nap out of him. I know it feels counterproductive but I think we were on to something here with Elijah and I would hesitate to go backwards just yet. There are a lot of 10 hour nights in the 2-1, they just don't need as much sleep anymore so if they are getting it in the day then they ain't going to do more at night.
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Hmmm. OK. I will be with him all day tomorrow, so I will pay close attention to that middle A. I was surprised when he did 3.5 A this morning and made it through an hour nap :) I'll keep the 1 hour at 9, and try for 1:30 at 1. Thanks, ladies.
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It's all so trial and error and with teeth, well it's like all odds are stacked against us for having a 'routine'. Sometimes it's just survival mode until those teeth come through. I don't want to push him too much, but even 10 mins can really make a difference to a LO and their nap. Since his nights are unpredictable at the moment I would not budge the first nap but maybe tack a tiny bit of time on to the middle.
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Keep us posted, Melinda. A partied in his crib today for 50 min after his 3h A that's been working fine so we're extending ours tomorrow, too. These boys are keeping us on our toes!! :D
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I wish you guys were right :/ that the 2nd nap was UT... but...
So last night we had a big ole battle at bedtime - 40 minutes later it ended up with me rocking him to sleep as he was SCREAMING. He STTN but was up at 4:50, got him back with a few minutes of shh/pat and he slept till 5:55. First nap was at 9:10 and we woke him at 10:10. First A was rough - he didn't seem tired, but he was cranky. Both teeth are through, thank goodness - so I'm not sure if the crankiness is teeth or tiredness. I was going to put him down for his second nap around 1 - but at 12:15 he was looking incredibly sleepy - rubbing eyes, burrowing into my chest. We were at a memorial service, so when we put him in the car at 12:30 he passed out before the car even started! He was EXHAUSTED. So it looked to me like he was really ready for a nap after just 2 hours of A :/
Does that change your mind as to what's going on here? Am I making him OT with the one hour nap? Is it not restorative enough?
Sigh...
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Elijah is a question mark, no doubt about that one :-) Ok here's what I would do. Put him back on the 2x 1.5 hr naps and accept the shorter nights until he stabilizes. He needs something consistent, but something that is going to work for you and not cause too much OT, so I think the only option is to leave A time where it is but let him have those longer naps and shorter nights until the teeth are done (remember there could be more on the way) or he's ready to make the next move.
It does sound reminiscent of Finn and how when we entered the 2-1 I had to push his AM time out and it took him a while to get used to that, in the meantime we had to actually shorten the middle A and do a really early bedtime.
It always meant an early wake-up, but it meant that he was rested enough not to be a disaster during the day and we eventually were able to shift things.
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Ha ha. He is a question mark indeed :) I am SO puzzled by his want of these low A times! He seems to be handling the first one OK - even when I did 3:30 - but I don't really know what kind of nap that would have produced, since I woke him. But Wendy, I don't want to accept the short nights!! (in my whiniest voice :)
I wonder if something like this would work:
wake: 6am (my optimism here)
A: 3:30
1st nap: 9:30 am - 1 hour or maybe 1:30?
A: 2:30
2nd nap: 1-2:30
bedtime: 6pm (I can somehow hear Elijah saying "yeah, right")
Today should be quite interesting, as he woke when we tried to transfer him from the car and now he is having an absolute party in his crib. Guess I will get him up for a bit and try for a nap again in 30 minutes or so?
Did I mention Elijah is going to be an only child? Ha ha ha.
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Man, Melinda he is a challenge isn't he?!? I think your plan looks fine if you think he will actually go down for you at 6. Austin would never do that for me anymore.
How did the rest of the nap go? Austin is currently partying in his crib, too. :P I thought a shorter A would do with a long A plus swim class this AM but apparently he has other ideas. Looks like either naptime is going to be short or bedtime is going to be really late around here. Argh.
It is amazing people have more than one of these little people, isn't it? ;)
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Umm....it's 2:40 and he still has not slept. My DH has been up in his room for over an hour and sounds like he is about to lose his mind :/
The funny thing is EVERYONE remarks how lucky I am - that Elijah is the easiest baby :) I guess not for my type-A standards! When I complain about his sleeping, people literally roll their eyes at me. Hee hee. Perspective is everything, eh?
And to answer your question, Kate, no, I do not think E will cooperate with a 6pm bedtime. He hasn't gone down at 6 once. 6:30 is about the earliest he allows it.
Wendy - are there kids who can do a long first and last A, but for some reason need a short middle one? What would the theory behind that be?
Thanks, ladies! (OK, I'm going back to work now - really)
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Oh boy, poor DH! Maybe he needs to get him up for a half hour, do some books or something low key and then try again?
I hear all the time how lucky, I am too. Everyone says - this baby never cries! I say, come over at 2am, then you can hear him cry! Some nights you can come at midnight, 2am, or 4am - your choice!! Haha. But really, we are very lucky. They are healthy, hysterical little kids who eat well and are developing right on. It's a bummer that they suck at sleeping but at least that's our biggest problem.
Keep us posted. I hope he goes down for DH soon. :-*
I am also going back to work, I swear....
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In reality we are all really lucky. Any BW is lucky to have the knowledge that we do about sleep and sleep cycles and sleep training methods, and development etc. But of course knowledge can also be a dangerous thing :-) So some of us obsess *whistles innocently*. The people who don't obsess though, are those that have LO's who tend to be on hyper overdrive because they are sleep deprived. Rather than go to sleep independently, they just crash because they are completely overtired. It works for some, ignorance is bliss, but I know I could not have gotten through this first year and beyond without having some tools under my belt. And not just APOP as lovely as it can be. On the nights and naps now, and we are talking like 85% of the time, we put him to bed and say 'see ya' and that's that.
Anywho, I digress. What I guess I want to say is that anything is possible as far as A time goes, and we may never figure it out while these teeth are bugging him. Finn did need a shorter middle A after his shorter nap and also because he was using up a lot of energy with the really long morning A. Then after all his day sleep he was refreshed and able to handle a longer pre-bed A time...and his natural sleep rhythms kicked in as well.
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Thanks for hanging in with me, ladies. You're right Wendy - we BW are lucky :) Every time I see an OT child falling asleep in the carts at Target, I cringe. E really is a great baby - we just hit these weird bumps in the road about every 3 months :)
Today was an absolute disaster sleep-wise. DH tried for nearly 2 hours on and off to get him to sleep and then the MINUTE I went up and picked him up, he put his head down and fell asleep. That was at 4pm!!!!!! So he slept 45 minutes and we're now preparing for an early BT. DH promptly went outside and weed-wacked everything in sight. Poor guy. Do you think that was coincidence or could I be looking at heaping SA onto the pile of "things" :) we're dealing with these days? I admit, I know nothing about SA! Could he be wanting me to put him to bed and not DH?
I feel like you are my teammates - and every time I check in - it's like a huddle before I go back into the field (ahem, nursery) :)
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Haha. Love the image of the huddle! At least we have people to huddle with, huh? Don't know what I'd do without you ladies. :-*
I wouldn't be surprised if SA is starting to play a part in things. It's just rearing it's ugly head over here this past week and it sucks!! Maybe you need to take over for a day or 2 just to keep him out of an OT hole? Not to totally let him do the SA thing all the time but just for now since he's had low sleep times for a couple of days?
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Yeah, today was a rough day. But he said "mama" for the first time - so how rough could it really be??? Hopefully tomorrow I'll catch him up a bit. I guess I need to do some reading on SA, huh? Do you really think that's what was happening today with his nap refusal for dad?
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I've been reading on SA, too. :P I actually started a post before I saw there's a sticky on the Discipline, etc board. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84719.0
Who knows if it was that for sure but I'd say it's a safe guess.
I just told my friends who were over for dinner about Elijah saying Mama when he got stuck today! LOL! Do you like that I'm bragging about your kid? Haha! Really it was me telling them that I can't wait for Austin to say it too!! Sweet little boys, we have. :D
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Yes, I love that you're bragging about my kid :) Austin will say it soon - probably when you least expect it! I was so taken aback yesterday when he did it - as I was still waking up!
We had a 12 hour night with a 1 hour NW at 3 am :/ I guess it could have been worse. He was SCREAMING at the NW - so I wonder about his teeth - or it was simply sheer OT. Luckily we have a 6:30am start to the day to work with - so we'll see how things go. I think we need a catch up day here, so cross your fingers for us. Hope you had good nights.
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I think that night sounds pretty good, actually! Hopefully the 12h will help catch him up. And it's great that you have a decent start time to work with. What's your plan for the day?
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Oh Kate, you're funny - what's my plan? As if I have a say? Basically Elijah's all over the map. I don't get it. He woke at 6:30 - DH determined he was tired, he was asleep by 9:30. A very cranky morning. Then I was planning on shortening his second A, but he didn't seem tired at all and actually went 3:15 (yesterday 2:15!?) His first nap was only 1:10 and seemed UT. He's currently in the second one - we shall see. It's like every day is something different with him! Ugh. I just keep thinking it's got to be these teeth. Why else would he be so out of whack? I think we have been teething for a good 2.5 weeks, though.
How's A doing?
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LOL. Well we can hope, right? Do you really stop planning even when he's going ahead and mucking them up every day? ;)
So actually the day (aside from the crankiness) sounds ok to me so far. 1h10 nap plus a longer A, which I think he probably needs, should hopefully give you a decent PM nap and decent A to BT. That's my hope, anyhow. I have my fingers crossed for you! Teeth could definitely still be messing with him. I swear A was teething for 3 weeks this last bout. I know it's not common but it does happen.
We're doing fine. Back on track today, I hope. He was tired this AM and not happy to get up at 45 min but then we all went out and did some errands and he was so happy riding around in the stroller in and out of stores. He's such a patient kid. So we did 3h15 for the 2nd A, too, and he's down now. Hoping we get that 2h PM nap back. He does well when he gets that. Rainy and cold here today and I just want to go to bed, too! :)
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1h10 nap plus a longer A, which I think he probably needs, should hopefully give you a decent PM nap and decent A to BT. That's my hope, anyhow. I have my fingers crossed for you!
Oh, thanks so much, Kate. He had the worst nap he's had in say - oh, I don't know - 3-4 months! Up at the 30mm, 45mm, and 1hr mark - at 1 hour I just held him for 30 more minutes. UGH. I am going to start pulling my hair out again!
KathG- sorry things are rough for you too. I would advise you to start a new thread so you get new eyes on your particular situation! I didn't think anyone but Wendy and Kate were still reading my saga :) Hope you get some help! (in my opinion, I would not start waking him, I would DEFINITELY get rid of the CN!)
M.
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Ugh!!! That's terrible! What the heck is going on with this kid?? Are you doing super early BT if he will?
KathG - I agree with Melinda, I'd start a new thread to get more eyes. ;)
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We are in the throws of an attempt at early BT. He is, per usual, having a party in his crib at the moment. I don't know what that nap was all about - UT? OT? I don't pretend to know anymore. Wendy? Help?
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Well, with an A time of 3:20 he actually put himself to sleep peacefully and within 15 minutes. First time in a long time. But then an hour later he is crying...
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Oh, I was so excited for a minute there. So now that sounds OT, which makes sense with the cruddy PM nap, no?
Bueller? Bueller? ;)
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I know, DH and I were excited too. He's put himself back without us - but it does seem OT. I don't know how bad the pm nap was, really - he never quite woke all the way - just sort of cried out like he needed us and within a minute of shh/pat he was back to sleep....
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Hmm. That is interesting. I guess we hope he has a good night and the early BT catches him up a bit?
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Melinda can you post past 3 days like EAS and let's have a real good look at everything.
I think if the 1 hr AM isn't working we can try the long AM/short PM. But let's revisit what the past days have been like from wake to bedtime with all naps, all wakings, everything.
Sorry it's rough but sometimes they just need time to catch up and it's a rough ride until you get there.
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Thanks for hanging in there with me! I get so frustrated and so sad for him when things are working. He seems so out of sorts - cranky and tired - I just don't know what's to blame - OT, teeth, SA...Your help is more appreciated than you'll ever know!
Friday
wake: 5:30
E: 6:45 formula
E: 7:45 solids
A: 3:25 total
S: 8:55-10am - total nap 1:05, I woke him
E: 10:15 snack
E: 11:30 lunch
A: 2:48 total
S: 12:48-2:07 - total nap 1:19
E: 2:45 - formula
E: 5:00 - solids
A: 4:18 total
E: 5:30 - top off of formula
bedtime: 6:25 (was trying for 6pm)
Saturday
wake: woke at 4:45, went back with a few minutes of shh/pat - awake again at 5:55
E: 6:45 - formula
E: 7:45- solids
A: 3:15 total
S: 9:10 - 10:10 - woke him
E: 10:20 snack
E: 11:20 - solids
A: 2:15 total
S: 12:25-12:45 - around 12:00 noticed him acting incredibly tired - passed out the minute we placed him in car, but woke when we arrives home
E: 2:45 - formula
A: 3:15 - after a 20 min. nap, much of this time was spent trying to get him to sleep
S: 4:00-5:00 - APOP on me
E: 5:15 -solids
A: 1:30 - incredibly tired and out of sorts
S: 6:30
NW at 2:45am - 3:45 am - screaming and crying - fed, shh'd, patted, rocked
Sunday
wake: 6:35
E: 7:30 - formula
E: 8:15- solids
A: 3:02 total
S: 9:37-10:47 - 1:10 total (was trying to let him sleep and catch up)
E: 11am - snack
E: 12pm - lunch
A: 3:13
S: 2:02-3:30 - 1:28 total but woke at 30 mm, 45 mm and 1hr mm - APOP'd last 30 minutes of nap
E: 3:45 - formula
E: 5:00 - solids
A: 3:20
S: 6:50 - fell asleep on his own (yay! no fight) but has cried out twice since then - both times putting himself back to sleep
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Well, we had the most awful night since maybe he was a newborn. Up every single hour - all night. Up for good at 4:50 - exactly 10 hours after he went to bed. He'd wake crying - sometimes putting himself back to sleep, other times needing us. He had tylenol and motrin in his system - so I don't know what to make of this :(
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Big hugs, Melinda. Sounds like teething or illness to me. Routine stuff shouldn't come out in a night that bad. He doesn't seem sick or teethy at all?
I'm there with you if it makes you feel any better. A was up basically from 3:30 on. At least (is that terrible to say?) he has a temp so I'm sure he's just not feeling well.
Hope you get a nap today. :-*
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Agree with Kate, that is pure discomfort. At his age I really think he would handle regular OT better than that so there is something going on for sure. Do you know which teeth might be cutting? I wonder if he's going to pull a Finn and do a whole bunch at once and they will pop like popcorn :-(
I am still looking at the routine though...just at work at the mo :-)
Kate, whoa, what is Austin on about? If he's not well though, well it's just survival. Finn just got over roseola and we had crappy sleep. Last night we had the best night in ages...he finally slept 11 hours all on his own! There really is hope but some LO's are so sensitive to teething and other issues that it just completely derails even the soundest routine.
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The funny thing is he seemed completely himself this morning - happy and playing on his own. I was like, "seriously, Elijah?" My plan for the day was simply to follow him - I don't really know what else to do after a night light that. And at an A time of 3:15 he was still happily playing on his own...? I kind of got scared of the OT monster, so I put him in his crib right around then and he fell asleep on his own at the 3:22 mark.
I don't think I've ever been so stumped by this little guy. No fever. Two teeth seem to be pretty much through - and I don't see evidence of others, though the doc had mentioned he thought his saw 4 on the top coming in (the two that are through are the top middle two)
Kate, sorry A is ill :( Always something, right?
Wendy, thanks for looking at the routine - I appreciate it - though I must admit I don't feel like I have much of a routine at all these days. Glad Finn gave you a good night of rest.
Going to get a second cup of coffee :/
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I'm still pondering but your Friday tells us that he does reasonably well with ~2.5 hrs day sleep. His last A was long so I suspect it should be titch shorter for him and he may not have done the EW at ~10 hours in...that's pretty classic OT...I live with one of those 10 hour kids so I know :-) It does look like he does best with a shorter middle A, we can't really look for too many theories here, if it is what he needs then we have to just accept it from him until he changes it up again. I suspect it's due to the shorter night, longer AM A time and then a shorter nap than he is used to. I am beginning to wonder if you need to shorten the middle A even more after a 1 hr nap, maybe he's only good for 2 hr 30...
However, clearly things deteriorated so he got OT either due to his routine being off or teething or because you had to be out of the house or one of the other many million possibilities these kids throw at us. And Sunday after his longer night (even with a NW) he only gave you just over a 1 hr nap on a shorter A time...so looks like he's getting used to the longer A/1 hr AM nap but the rest of the day is going wonky. His first A looks good for him though, so let's keep that. It looks like it's between 3 - 3 hr 20 depending on his night.
I wonder if you could try 2x 1 hr 15 min naps for him? It's different but may work for a kid so sensitive to A times.
What about:
Awake 6
Nap 1 hr 15 @ 9:20 - 10:35
Nap 1 hr 15 @ 1:35 - 2:50
Bedtime asleep by 6:20/6:30 - if he's fighting this I suspect he can actually handle a longer final A after his good naps and his short middle A time, you may even get him to a later BT and still get a good night
Then when he's sleeping better through the night etc. we try adding more A time to get him to where he should be.
It's just one plan and it's no exact science, someone may have better ideas :-) I know you don't want less night sleep/early mornings but it can be out of our hands at times :-) Ideally you want a well-rested kid in the day and night so sometimes we don't get good naps and long nights until they have transitioned and evened out.
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Wendy - thanks for the routine - I promise I will look at it in more detail once I recover from today.
Today brings all new meaning to OT. I have never in 9.5 months seen Elijah like this. I guess his night was worse than I thought - that first nap this morning after 3:22 of A (b/c he seemed completely rested and happy) backfired big time - 30 min nap. Screaming. APOP'd another 30 minutes and then he was up. 2 hours later, he seemed really tired, so I put him down at 2:20 of A time - 30 min nap -screaming - would not go back. 2 hours later, another 30 min. APOP'd nap. I had to go to a meeting this evening so DH was in charge of bedtime, so I told him to get him to sleep as fast as possible - aiming for 5:30pm. When I got home at 7:30 Elijah was still up. DH had been trying to get him down for 2 hours. I took over - rocked him for 30 minutes - and his body was jolting, but he went to sleep for me within minutes. So - asleep at 8pm after an awful, awful day. I just had myself a good cry and DH is out picking up a pizza so we don't have to do anything else tonight. I tried so hard to help him today...it was just so sad...I don't even know where to go from here. ;(
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Oh Melinda, I'm sorry all I have are hugs for you this morning. We were up all night, literally. Austin's temp was up to 103 something 30 min after Motrin. I ended up getting him a couple of hours by putting him in the carrier and bouncing on an exercise ball like when he was a newborn. :P
I'm so sorry it was such an awful day for all 3 of you. He's still not acting sick at all? It sure sounds like something is going on with him.
More hugs and I hope last night was ok and that today is a better day. :-*
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Melinda, it definitely sounds like he's ill or really badly teething. No OT should cause that kind of backlash.
I think you may end up just following him, letting him sleep as and when he needs it, allow some APOP and just get through whatever this is.
Hugs to all of you!!!
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M, how was the day? Any teeth show up yet?
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Hi ladies. Well, like you Kate (I'm so sorry! (((hugs))) everything is so much harder when we ourselves have no sleep!), we hardly had any sleep last night. He was, again, up every 45-1hr. I took him to the doctor today - nada. Ears are fine. She didn't see any more teeth coming in, aside from the 2 top ones that are mostly through. I know it seems like it *should* be more than OT, but I'm really wondering if I have one incredibly sensitive to OT child. He did 3 hours of naps today - 1:18, 1:18 and 30 - with all very low A times. He seemed much better today. The first A this morning was 1:45! I will follow him and see if we can simply get back to a stable place. From there? I'm not sure. Thanks for your support. I'll check back in soon.
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So we've had 4 very similar nights - nothing is making a difference and I am at a TOTAL LOSS for what to do. He was up 8:30, 9:30, 12, 1, 3:30 to 5 (wide awake) and then for good at 5:45. He seems fine. Both teeth are through. While the previous 3 nights have seemed OT, last night's 3:30-5 stint was definitely UT - I guess b/c he had 4 hours of day sleep. ANY THOUGHTS AT ALL? I cannot even think straight :(
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Ok Melinda, I recommend popping a post on EASY board to get a fresh set of eyes on the issue. Not that Kate and I haven't been great lol (tee hee) but really we need to call in reinforcements here and I think a new post rather than trying to get people to wade through this one.
What do you think? Let's see what people think about the routine and what might be causing this!
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OK, will do Wendy. You both have been great - thank you :) I am at my wits end... will you link my post to the EASY board, as I know there are some others following this... I will post now and I will call it "SOS - BW baby gone terribly awry" Ha ha ha (wish it were really funny!)
Melinda
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Ok ladies I am locking this one up and let's see if we can get some routine help on EASY - I do think it's a routine issue.
Please visit Melinda's new post on EASY if you have some tips!
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=172796.0