BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: ElsMom on June 04, 2010, 15:07:01 pm
-
My textbook / spirited DS was 6 months old this week. At 2 months he was sleeping 10 hours (7 pm to 5 am), nursing on one side, and going back to sleep until 7 am. I was thrilled! Then he started having issues with constipation and reflux (exclusively breastfed, we've been all over the place with doctors and tests and enemas). He never seemed horribly uncomfortable at night, but started waking more often. The dr recommended a 4 hr feeding schedule at 3 months, and that's when the NWs started. I started doing the DF a couple of weeks later in an attempt to fix the NWs, and I ended up just adding a NW. I'm not sure where to start. He's still having problems with constipation, but we have it under control and he doesn't seem uncomfortable during the day or night. Here's his routine:
usually awake between 6:30 and 6:45 am, occasionally earlier. I leave him in bed if he's happy.
7:00 E (lately only nursing about 5-10 minutes)
8:15ish solids (oat cereal with prune juice and ebm + 1 T of whatever new food we're introducing)
9:30-11:30 S (almost always have to wake from this nap)
11:45 E (5-10 min)
1:45/2:00 - 3:00 / 4:00 (this one is not predictable - he acts tired by 1:15 but I extend as long as I can, and rarely get him to sleep longer than an hour and 15 minutes, so I think he still needs more A time)
whenever he wakes up E (5-10 min)
5:00-5:30 - try catnap here if awake from nap 2 before 3:30, but he rarely takes it
5:30 solids (about 2-3 T vegetable and 1 T fruit)
6:30 E (15 min on each side - I have to stop him)
7:00 bed
10:30 supposed to be DF, but he usually wakes sometime between 9 and 10:30 and I extend as long as I can and then feed him - 15 min on each side - I have to stop him here too
2:00 - 4:30 am NW with full feed (15 min per side) unless he's calm after just one side and I can put him back down.
He rarely wakes unless he's hungry, but that means I can't really do anything else to calm him. He occasionally takes a paci, but it just makes him mad if he wants to eat. I know he can make it longer because he's not hungry in the morning. I usually leave him alone for 5-10 minutes before going in, and then I try to give him the paci without picking him up. Sometimes he'll take it for a couple of minutes, and once in a while will go back to sleep, but usually not. He'll arch his back and scream until he starts coughing and really gets upset. I've tried picking him up to calm him, or rocking him with the paci, but both just upset him more if it's been more than 3 hrs since he ate.
He doesn't have a lovey. He's still swaddled, and I think that's something I'm going to need to wean soon but he rolls so much during the day that I'm scared to. He's also in a sleep positioner.
I don't know if he needs a routine change or what. I did PUPD with my daughter and I dread having to do it again. This seems like a hunger issue since the NWs are always at different times, but maybe he's used to snacking at night and isn't really hungry? This morning he was awake at 5:40 and I couldn't get him back to sleep, he just fussed and strained against me. I tried to nurse him at 6:30 and he only ate for 5 min. The dr suggested that he might be only taking 4 or so ounces at a feed because of his constipation (maybe he feels a bit full all the time) and therefore needs to eat more often through the night. That's why I haven't done anything about this before now. I'm exhausted though, and know it's almost time to drop the DF, but I can't do that until I stop the other NW!
-
just chiming in 'cause i'd like to hear responses to this, too. indeed, at this age, there are so many variables at that it's really hard to tell what is and isn't necessary vs. what is only for comfort.
-
sorry no advice but interested to see what others say.
-
Jane, thanks! Do you think the 2nd NW is due to him being OT / too much evening A time or just the NW before the DF? I'm actually wondering if I should cut the DF and see what happens. DD started waking before the DF around 8 months and it meant she was ready to give it up. Not sure how to interpret this when he's still got another NW though. The last two nights he's made it to 4 am and then just nursed on one side, so that's good. But both nights he's been up before the DF and I've fed him for about 45 minutes around 10.
-
If you mean do I let him nurse as long as he wants or take him off, I take him off. During the day he'll only nurse 5-10 minutes, but at bedtime, the DF, and his NW he'd nurse forever if I let him. I started cutting him off at 15-20 minutes per side and it hasn't made a difference in his wakings.
-
Does anyone have any suggestions for the 2nd NW? I'm exhausted! Should I try to wait and see if he'll get through on his own as he eats more solids, or should I do something proactive like PUPD even though it does seem more hunger related as it's at different times each night? He's not incredibly hungry for his 7 am feed, and he's barely touching his solids lately. So I know he doesn't need as much milk as he's getting... but he doesn't seem to know that! :)
-
Hiya,
((hugs)) I know how tough it is to have a 6 month old baby still waking up during the night, it just gets you exhausted, more than the first few days cause it just seems neverending...
A few things that come to me when reading your post:
Then he started having issues with constipation and reflux (exclusively breastfed, we've been all over the place with doctors and tests and enemas).
Is your LO being treated for the reflux? How well do you think the meds are working (if he's taking any meds)?
Did you check the possibility of MPI? Have you tried cutting dairy out of your diet? (DD#1 used to be very constipated and be very fussy and cry a lot and was all due to MPI).
You mentioned your LO feeding for less time during the day than at night- do you think he may be getting distracted and therefore not feeding as well? Have you tried a more peaceful setting?
It's no uncommon for a BF baby to still be waking up for feeds at your LOs age: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=98183.0
But it does sound to me like he's cutting corners on the day feeds and making it up at night. I'm thinking that because you say he isn't hungry for his 7am feed and not too interested in solids.
Something that worked for us was for me to pump the last feed and give DS in a bottle - he seems to take a bit more this way and last a bit longer, have you tried that?
Another suggestion is to just feed him whenever he wakes up for the DF rather than try to extend his sleeping. Then start doing the DF a bit earlier everyday. It might be that he's just used to waking up that time and is disturbing the rest of his night.
I've a feeling I'm missing out on something... but I'll keep thinking about it.
xxxx
-
Thanks, Tay. Yes, I've been off of dairy and soy (and chocolate and caffeine) for about 3 months. I think it helped his fussiness in the beginning, but the doctors don't believe it's related to his constipation, as it hasn't made any difference there. He's also been on ranitidine for the reflux for about 3 months as well. He rarely spits up anymore, and really the fussiness is gone - all that remains is the constipation. I give him a suppository every 3 days if he goes that long without pooping. He does seem to be doing better now that he's on solids - still very hard poops but a bit more more regular.
He's definitely very distracted during his daytime feeds, and it's definitely working against us at night, I just don't have any idea what to do about it. My spirited almost-3-year-old is his favorite form of entertainment. I put her in front of the tv for his 7 am feed, and it helps him focus a little bit without her jumping around. His 11:30ish feed is pretty much a lost cause, but even on weekends when DH can watch DD, he doesn't eat much more. I'm not going to use the tv for every feeding, and I've tried different things like giving her a snack, a game to play, something to color, etc. It all works for about 5 minutes and then she runs over and starts asking if he's done yet, and once he quits I can't get him to latch back on. If I keep trying he bites me. :( His 3:30/4:00 pm feed is a little better, as DD is often still down for her nap, and if so, I feed DS in his room with the lights off. Those 3 feeds average 5-10 minutes each. His bedtime feed is always 30 minutes (I stop him after 15 minutes on each side, as he's feeding while sleeping by that point). DF and the NW are the same - 30 min each, I stop him.
I've wondered if I should just cut out the DF for a few days and see what happens. Maybe he'll make it to midnight and then all the way through? He's waking prior to the DF about every other night, so I've wondered if me waking him on the nights he hasn't yet woken somehow resets him to wake earlier the next night? Last night he was up for the 2nd time at 1 am, much earlier than usual, and I tried to extend him in fear of a 3rd NF / EW, but he kept spitting out the paci and yelling at me, so I fed him around 1:40 and he made it to 7 am, and wasn't hungry then. I think he's now in a habit of not eating much during the day.
-
That sounds about right to me (that he is not feeding enough during the day and making it up at night). Had a similar problem with DS about a month or so ago (if I remember well).
A couple of things:
- A question: is your LO feeding to sleep? Even for daytime naps? Or can he sleep independently? If so it might be helpful to try to give him the last feed a bit earlier and put him down to sleep independently at night.
- Do you feed EBM? I'm thinking it might be a good suggestion to try to give a bottle of EBM for one of the feeds your LO seems to be taking less - it might not work (some mums find it make no difference, but as I said before we did find that DS took a bit more, probably because he couldn't stop the flow).
- If your LO doesn't necessarily wake up for the DF I would definately try not to feed him and see how long he would go. I found out with DS that it still meant the one NW but earlier than usual, and then a better feed at 7am, which in turn meant a better day's feeding, less feeding the next night and so on. Does that make sense?
- If at all possible, you can try to cut the length of the night BF bit by bit. I started cutting the length on one side to the point DS was feeding only from one side on his NW. (I think also he was taing more during the day because of all of the other things I've already mentioned which helped him not get too fussy when I 'cut him short' a few minutes)
- DS is also on three meals a day (only 2 or 3 Ts of veg for lunch and dinner). Not sure if this has also helped.
What do you think? Does it make sense? What do you think you can try?
xxx
-
To answer your questions:
DS can/does sleep independently. He only feeds to sleep at the bedtime feed and the DF (which is I guess kind of the point of the DF, right?). I change his diaper after the first side of the DF, so I don't have to change him again at the 2nd NW. He's more alert at his 2nd NW, and about half of the time does stop nursing on his own and I put him down awake.
I only regularly feed EBM once a week at church, which is the 11:30 feed, and he only takes about 4 oz, even though I always have 7 in the bottle just in case. I've tried and tried to get him to take more, and he won't. It's a fight to get him to take 4. Usually after about 2 he wants to do other things.
So are you saying to stop doing the DF and wait for him to wake up, hoping that will cut us back to 1 NW? I've been very tempted to do that, I've just been afraid of EWs. At least when he nurses twice at night, I can count on having time to shower if I get up at 6. I started the DF around 3 months because he was having 1 NW but then waking up hungry around 5:30 am and wanted to start his day after that feeding.
We're doing 3 solids meals a day, although he doesn't always eat more than a couple of bites. It's still new to him, so we're still working out what he likes. I usually offer about 1 T of cereal (dry measurement) and 1 T fruit for breakfast, 1 T veggies and 1 T fruit for lunch, and 2 T veggies and 1 T fruit for dinner. Sometimes he eats it all, sometimes just a couple of bites, and sometimes he screams as soon as I put him in his high chair and refuses to take the first bite. I need a manual!! :)
Thanks so much for your help!
-
DS can/does sleep independently. He only feeds to sleep at the bedtime feed and the DF (which is I guess kind of the point of the DF, right?).
Then his NWs are hunger and he needs fed. And yes, the point of the DF is that the baby doesn't even wake up for it. That's why I'm thinking that maybe the DF is not working for your LO, may be disturbing his sleep and just adding a NW.
Another thing I'm thinking is: does your LO have a poo nappy? I try not to change DS the whole night if at all possible - plenty of nappy cream before bedtime and I only change him if he's dirty. But I know DD never could even stand one pee in her nappy, so maybe it won't work for your LO.
So are you saying to stop doing the DF and wait for him to wake up, hoping that will cut us back to 1 NW? I've been very tempted to do that, I've just been afraid of EWs.
That's what I'm thinking, maybe he'll wake up at around 1/2am for a feed. There is a chance that he'll wake up a bit earlier for a while, but then you can do PU/PD until it's wake up time and feeding time again (any time from 6.30am).
You'll be able to see if it works in around 3 days of doing so - if you can stick to just one feed at night it might instigate him to take more during the day.
I wouldn't worry about the solids yet, it takes a while to get them used to it.
xxxx
-
Thanks again. I didn't do the DF last night since we were out later than normal and I didn't get him in bed until 8:15, and he got a bit of a cluster feed (I fed him away from home at 6:30, and then again at 7:45 before putting him in bed). He woke at 12:45 to eat, and then was up at 5:45 yelling for me. I tried to just feed him on one side at 6 am and put him back down, but that didn't go over too well! I offered the 2nd side at 7 am but he wasn't interested.
I change him during the DF because otherwise his diaper leaks if he has two night feeds. I think it does rouse him more than he would otherwise be, but I experimented with changing him during the DF or the 2nd NW, and it worked better during the DF. If I changed him during the 2nd NW, he didn't want to eat anymore and just stared at me. I also tried changing him at the beginning of the 2nd NW, before nursing him at all, and he cries so loudly that I'm afraid he's going to wake DD up. Not a patient boy!!
I'll keep it up for at least 3 days without the DF and hope for the best. He took 7 oz of EBM at 11:30 am (well, between 11:30 and 12:45), but he hasn't touched any solids today. Maybe that 7 oz will help him tonight, or help reset his tummy to eat more at 11 tomorrow.
-
It does sound like a little progress... 5 hour stretch is better than what you were getting before isn't it?
The 7oz sounds good, but no solids at all might mean the need for those extra calories at night, we'll see, with these LOs we never know ;)
Do keep me posted about how you get on tonight and tomorrow night,
xxx
-
Ok, we've been a few weeks without the DF and haven't seen any progress. He seems to have reset himself to a 2x per night routine, and the 1st feed is usually before the DF would have been. I can't find any connection between his daytime sleep and his NWs, although I know there should be. But if he gets 1.5 hrs or 3.5 hrs of naps, he's still usually up once before 11 pm and once between 2 and 4:30. The second night with no DF he made it from 7 pm to 4:45 am, and I was thrilled! But then that was it, and he went back to twice a night and has been doing that since. Just in the last couple of days I've added an extra daytime BF before nap 2 (so he's eating at 7 am, 11:30 am, 2:30 pm, 4:30 pm, and 6:30 pm) to see if that will help him get the extra calories he's trying to get at night. And he's doing much better on solids - eating 2-4 oz three times per day. He's nursing longer now, too - about 10-15 minutes per BF. I'm cutting back his night feeds to 10 minutes per side, and thinking in another couple of days I'll try maybe 7 minutes, then 5, etc. Not sure how it will all work, I'd love suggestions. I still don't think PUPD is the thing for us right now since he might truly need one NF for a while, and I think it would confuse him to do PUPD at one NW and feed him at the other. Another thought I've had is to pump and give him a bottle at the first NW, in case he's sleep-eating and not getting a lot, even though he's nursing for a long time. That seems like it might counteract my efforts to get him to need fewer calories in the night, though. Or maybe I should start doing the DF again, but earlier and with a bottle? Thoughts?
-
I should also mention that we're on a full 3-hr A time now, with wakeup usually around 6:30, nap 1 9:30-11:30, nap 2 is 2:30 to 4ish, and bedtime is 7. He seems less OT during the day now that he can handle longer A times. Also, we saw a pediatric gastroenterologist and he's being treated for the constipation and has pretty much become regular (with lots of milk of magnesia), so his tummy should have more room in it now, and he should be more comfortable. We were advised to stay on the reflux meds until 9 months.
-
Hi and (((hugs)))
Not sure how much help I'll be but wanted to pop on! At 7mo we were still doing a dream feed and one night feed, and kept doing this until we dropped the dream feed around 9mo :-\ And, TBH, even after we dropped the dream feed we still did one night feed until ds was about 1yo! I never actively dropped any night feeds (except the dream feed) - I truly believed that ds would drop them on his own when he was ready. And he did, though certainly not as soon as I would have liked ;)
Does he take full feeds at both times? Is the first waking at a specific time (i.e., habitual)? When he has short naps, do you bring bedtime any earlier to compensate?
Here are a couple of links that you might find helpful, just in case you haven't seen them already:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=98183.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65750.0 ***
*** Just had a thought, you could use the technique described in dropping the dreamfeed to help deal with the earlier waking. If he's always waking between 1030-11, you could offer a feed at 1030, and then follow the plan in the FAQ and bring the feed earlier and earlier until you drop it completely. Not sure if that would work, just a thought since it's right around that dream feed time.
-
I'm sorry to hear things are going quite as you expected. But Vikki is right, some babies just need the night feeds a bit longer than others. DD, by the time she was 12 weeks, she was sleeping 7hr stretches and just got better from there. DS is another story....
I'm cutting back his night feeds to 10 minutes per side, and thinking in another couple of days I'll try maybe 7 minutes, then 5, etc. Not sure how it will all work, I'd love suggestions.
I done exactly that with DS, I'm not really sure when exactly, but I think he was around 5/6months and it did work. We were discussing it in a thread and myself and a couple of mums tried with our LOs. It worked beatifully with DS - he started taking less and less, until he was feeding on only one side. Then he started feeding more during the day and sometimes not waking until 4/5am. (Around that time I also started giving a bottle of EBM for his last feed).
Having said that other mums on the thread found that their LOs were having none of it, they would just demand the full feed!
So I think it's worth a try.
xxx
-
We've made no progress here. :( I had a better attitude and was just going with the flow for a couple of weeks but the exhaustion has taken back over and I want to fix it again! I've started pumping and giving him an 8 oz bottle at his first NW (usually have to add 2 oz formula to what I pump to get 8 oz). He takes anywhere from 5-7.5 oz anytime between 9:45 and 11:45 pm. The nice thing is it only takes him 5-10 minutes to drink a bottle, so I'm getting a bit more sleep there. I started this about a week ago. One night he lasted from that bottle until 4:00 am, but otherwise it's been between 1 and 2 am. I have a hard time believing that he could take 7 oz at 10:30 pm and then be hungry again at 1 am - but he'll nurse for 30 minutes. I haven't had any luck decreasing the time he nurses to less than 10 minutes per side, and he's been having EWs (5:30 - 6 am) about half of the time, so I wonder if he eats more at the 2nd NW then maybe he'll last longer before waking in the morning. At his 7 am feeding, he usually only wants one side for no more than 10 minutes, so he's not starving!! Not sure what I should be doing - just keep doing the same thing or make some sort of change. The other issue is the swaddle. I've tried to wean it several times and always end up wrapping him back up. Now he's able to get out of it, though, and he can't go back to sleep once he's unwrapped, so I've got a little problem!! The other night he was extra feisty and kept getting his arms out, so I was in with him about 5 times to wrap him back up. He doesn't BF to sleep (he's awake but calm when I put him down after nursing), but he gets so upset and determined to nurse. That night he was up 5 times, I nursed him every time to calm him back down. I know that's not going to get me any more sleep, but when I give him the paci, he either refuses to take it or he will take it and then be back up 10 minutes later. Should I just readjust my attitude again and assume he needs to eat twice a night? Start doing the DF again, but around 10 pm and with the bottle (instead of waiting for him to wake)? Or focus on weaning the swaddle, which I recognize I'll need to do one day, I just don't know when! (I have tried leaving one arm out lots of times, and it always results in short naps, early NWs).
-
((hugs)) You must be exhausted! Sometimes I think it's harder than those first few days with the baby when the LO is a bit older (accumulated tiredness as DH says).
I think to start with you need to get some rest. Can you swap around and BF him on the 1st NW and get someone else to take the 2nd NW for you with the bottle of EBM for a few days? I'm thinking that if your LO does still need the night feeds (which seems to be the case) at least you're resting up.
Should I just readjust my attitude again and assume he needs to eat twice a night? Start doing the DF again, but around 10 pm and with the bottle (instead of waiting for him to wake)?
That would work too if you went to sleep at the same time he does - at least for a few days.
I have a hard time believing that he could take 7 oz at 10:30 pm and then be hungry again at 1 am - but he'll nurse for 30 minutes.
After reading that I just had a thought... See if this was during the day, you would probably be trying to delay the feed and start stretching the gap between feeds to a 4hr (or as close to it as you could) wouldn't you?
If it's always around the same time he's waking up for that 1am feed, why don't you try to delay the feed by 5min, or 10min? Then do the same the next day and so on.
(DD only stopped her last NW when I went back to work so that feed was a bottle feed - which meant she had to wait until it was prepared- I'm convinced the wait was the reason she started to drop that feed. But myabe I'm wrong...)
How is he getting on with the solids? Any improvements?
xxx
-
We had a better few nights and then went back to the old pattern - I'm stumped. For 3 nights early this week, he made it from 7 pm to 12:30/1:00 am for his bottle, was drinking about 7 oz, and then slept until 5/5:30 am, nursed on one side for 15 minutes, and went back down until 7. It really felt like progress! But then he woke at 10:30 the last 3 nights, drank 6 or 7 oz, and woke the 2nd time around 2:30 am - exactly like he was doing before. I tried to only give him one side at the 2:30 am waking, and he threw a little fit!! I think this answers what I was wondering about doing a DF at 10 pm, though - it seems if he takes that bottle earlier in the night, his 2nd NW is going to be earlier too. If I could get the first NW stretched later, maybe he could make it to 7 am without a 2nd one. I don't have anyone to help me with the NFs, so catching up on sleep doesn't seem to be in my immediate future! I generally feel ok, I just know that I'm shorter on patience than I should be.
I really think a big part of this, other than the habit part, is that he won't nurse during the day unless he's going to sleep. He's recently started crying to nurse before his first nap, and I haven't let him because then he'd be feeding before every sleep period, and I don't need another bad habit! But here's what his E looks like - if I could fix this, I feel like I could at least work to decrease the 2nd NF.
7:00 am - nurse 5 min at most, usually just about 2 min
8:30 am - solids - eating well most days, getting excited about finger foods
9:30 am - nap, cries to nurse, can't really be too hungry because sleeps til 11:15 without it
11:30 am - nurse about 2 min, cries and fusses if try to get him to eat more
12:45 pm - solids, eats well
2:10 - nurse about 20 minutes (then immediately naps)
4:00 - nurse 0-2 minutes
5:30 - solids, eats well
6:30 - nurse 30 minutes (then immediately sleeps)
1st NW - drinks 6-7.5 oz bottle in 5-10 minutes
2nd NW - nurses 15-30 minutes
If I try to get him to nurse more, he yells and fights and squirms away. On the days he has a bottle (rarely), he'll take about 5 oz at 11:00 am and 4 oz at 4:00 pm. So I think he's just too excited to see the world, and you can't really look around when you're nursing, but you can when you're drinking a bottle. During the day, he looks all over the place and dawdles with the bottle, but he'll take it a bit at a time. I'm pumping as much as I can right now, so I don't really want to stop nursing for a daytime feed - I'd have to use more formula and I'd rather not do that. I realized the other day that he's getting 4 good liquid meals, they're just at the "wrong" times. At this age, DD was only having 4 liquid meals, but they were all during the day (and a DF). So should I move the daytime feeds around? Make his solids correspond better to our meals? I was thinking about changing to this --
7:00 am solids
9:00 am BF
11:00 am solids
2:00 pm BF
5:30 solids
6:30 BF
But that doesn't seem like enough? I know I need to get him to nurse more during the day, and for longer so he'll get the better milk. Should I ask this question on the BFing board? Thanks so much!
-
Do post on the BF board, maybe some other mums can come up with other ideas for you.
xxx