BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: marlowsmom on June 24, 2010, 13:56:26 pm
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Hello Ladies,
My DD2 Marlow is a 15.5 month old Angel/textbook/ touchy. I'd like to say the Touchy cancels the Angel out today, but I digress. We are in the midst of the 2-1 and I believe she has had a jump in A time (5.5hrs), but I'm not sure because most days she has 2 naps. One nap days are rare.
Usually she has a 20 or 30 min AM then a long PM. Lately I got into the habit of a long AM because she seemed to need it. I couldn't pinpoint the right amount of A afterwards thus she would refuse her PM nap and go to bed OT which would start the cycle over again. I tried to give her a 30 min AM the day before yesterday and she refused the PM nap. I had to fight her down and she slept an hour.
Yesterday, due to scheduling conflict and a stay at MIL, I had to give her a one long nap. Here was her 24 hours:
awake 5am
nap 11-1230
bed 7pm and it was a fight.
Last night was the worst because she had a NW from 230 to 415am.
Awake at 730am this morning
The last two weeks she has developed a clingy side. She wants me to hold her to fall asleep. I've haven't had to hold her to fall asleep since she was an infant or sick. She hasn't been sick and if she is teething she isn't showing any signs (finger chewing, complaining). I don't think this is SA because I recently left her with my MIL and when I told her bye she followed me to the door but didn't cry.
It feels like she has lost her trust in me. How should I gain it back?
Sleeping in her room isn't an option because I snore. If I leave her to fuss (not full blown crying) she will hold out and go on and on.
Also, what do I do at this point with the increased A time? I have an OT loop that I need to escape but once I do should go to one nap?
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It's 2pm and she still won't go to sleep. She's been up since 730am
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ok -I would def go to one nap once she is caught up on sleep. To help her now I would do whatever you need to to get her some sleep so use your AP tactics. In my opinion she needs a wake up of at least 6am to manage a one nap day especially if she is just transitioning. I would do about 5-5.5 a time and then nap and then an early bedtime if you need to. keep us posted with wake up times and i can try to help you with naps etc as we go.
bx
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My DD is a couple of weeks older than yours and we have been through/going through something similar although we are on one sleep. I find she can do 5.5A in the am and slightly less in the pm.
She has been clingy too and the lovely ladies on here have helped guide me through some of the worst of it. We have been doing GW as WI/WO seems to make things worse. Maybe you could try that if things are still bad at bedtime.
Hope things sort themselves out soon. A lot of people I know with LO's at this age have been going through very similar situations.
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Henry1 thanks for the guidance. I'm frazzled. Her 2 hour NW and this sudden need to cling to me has totally thrown me off track.
After I spent an hour trying to get her to sleep, my saint of a MIL came by with my DD1 and took over trying to get Marlow to sleep. Her theory was that since she wasn't mommy that she would get her down. It took her about 30 min to get her to sleep. Marlow finally fell asleep at 2pm and woke at 330pm. As I was posting how it was 2pm and she was not asleep, my MIL got her to sleep.
JaneCharlotte- thanks for the support. I've heard that for some LO, once they decide to go on one nap that its best to pick a solid naptime and bedtime and stick to it come hell or high water. I'd like to see your posts on this topic.
Sorry that my response to you both is nonsensical. I'm tired, extremely whiney, not thinking clearly and I have a extreme case of "poor me". I've stressed myself out fretting over wheather she will sleep or not today.
So tomorrow I work on knocking the first issue off my list: OT.
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Hugs have been there many times over the last couple of weeks.
We have had a few no nap days in recent weeks and it can be very stressful.
We (I) have decided to go back to set nap/bedtimes. My DD has only been sleeping for 45mins during the day and I was trying to make sure she had early bedtimes etc but it seemed to make things worse for us. She has been on one sleep for a couple of months and it had been going really well but we had a few setbacks about 2 weeks ago and we are still working through it. Like you it feels like DD has lost her trust in me. She cries for naps and bed (hadn't done this for months) and I have had to start GW sleep training again. It seems to be going okay, I am standing by the door and she settles straight away as opposed to 30-45mins of crying with WI/WO.
Let us know how you get on. I would recommend getting her onto one sleep once the wake time in the am is reasonable- fighting naps and bed here is always UT- until it swings the other way...
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So should I let her have a long AM tomorrow or a short AM nap? Part of me says let her have the long but I have such a time getting her down for the second nap. If I give her the short AM like usual then I have trouble pinpointing the correct A before the second nap. She's rubbing her eyes by 2.5 hours of A so I think that she is tired if not OT by that point. I know she is OT by 3 hours of A so could 2 hours of A between naps be real? It seems so short.
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My advice would be to do a short am nap for sure....I would imagine that she could do more than 2 hours A time but maybe is she is OT at the moment that is the issue.
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ok im gonna go against some advice here (eeek, dont hit me!!) I think a long AM nap and whatever catnap (APOPd) you can get out of her after about the same amount of A time or slightly less, is something to consider, because really she is OT and until she gets out of that you wont have any luck getting back to one nap. shes super clingy because shes super tired. I know when I was little when i was really tired all I wanted was my Mum because she was my comfort and I think thats where shes at with you, she gets to the point in her tiredness where she cant handle her own self and sees you as the one she needs.
I think once you have helped her catch up on her sleep then definately aim for one nap. oh and if you do decide to do the long AM and she doesnt catnap at all then shoot for an early bedtime, these are the thigns we did with Caleb whilst transitioning and getting through some OT spots. Once shes back to scratch and if shes still doing the holding you hostage situation then WI/WO is an amazing tool, we used it after 12 months old and it usually gets us back on track within a day!
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different things work for different kids - we all give advice based on our own experience so you may want to give both a go. long am does not seem to have been working v well but if you are going to stick with it then like jo says you will need to do early early bedtimes x
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Last night she was in bed by 740pm. She wanted me to hold her but I convinced her to lay down. Once I got her to lay down I rubbed her head until she calmed and fell asleep by 8pm. She fussed at 10pm, went back to sleep w/o getting up, and woke at 4am quietly babbling. I reluctantly gave her a bottle, but I knew it was a sure fire way to get her back to sleep. I rocked her until she fell asleep then back in the crib at 445am. She woke at 7am.
Fast forward to 9am. She's playing and decides to lay down on the floor. I get her up and take her upstairs but its too late. Mind you she's rubbing her eyes and yawning as soon as we get upstairs. TWO HOURS AND FIFTEEN MINUTES later she falls asleep. She fought, squirmed, cried, kicked her legs, played with her fingers, and did everything that she could to not fall asleep. But, oh, was she tired. So now I'm thinking that she will probably sleep 1.5 hours, she will have lunch, then back to bed. Clearly, after an OK nights sleep, 2 hour A was too much to handle. *sigh*
I'm proud that I didn't cry, or leave the room, or get angry. I just kept thinking and saying "Mommy's not going to leave you."
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I reluctantly gave her a bottle, but I knew it was a sure fire way to get her back to sleep. I rocked her until she fell asleep then back in the crib at 445am.
We just had to get Ryan out of a TERRIBLE OT loop and we ended up putting him to sleep every night between 5-630 and he would wake at some point and we gave him a bottle and changed his diaper in the dark and it finally got him out of the loop
He was always a better am napper, but I am finding that even though that is what he wants he does way better if I force the pm long nap
I have also found after getting out of the OT loop, he sometimes "acts" tired after 2-2.5 hrs, but he can go longer if you leave him a minute and then we make it to the pm nap.
We are still working it out, but this is what helped for us. I feel like we are on the verge of having it straight. He is napping 3 hrs now no matter what time he goes down-so that must mean something!
Good Luck
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I'm afraid of putting her to bed too early b/c she usually wakes early. She has never slept a 12 hour night. She finally fell asleep today at 11:15am so I'm letting her sleep as long as she wants.
The other day I had to try to push her to 5 hour A in the am and she didn't fight me that much. But that was just one day.
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Ryan never slept a 12 hour night and I was TERRIFIED to put him down before 6-but it really did work!! We did have NW, and we just changed diaper and gave bottle of milk gave him all of his paci's (he sleeps with like 10 of them I swear) and he would go back to sleep.
I was able to get him to sleep a few 13-15 hour nights and that was the ONLY way I could get him out of the loop. Honestly I think one day I put him in bed at 5-it was crazy but I was at my wits end with a 2-3 mo who has issues of her own! When I finally buckled down and decided early BT no matter what it took about a week and a half to sort it out. Now he is doing about 4-4.5 A time most days then sleeps for 3 hrs but will go to 5 hours if he sleeps past 7-730. Most days he is waking around 615-630. He is still getting kind of tired in pm so we have been keeping BT around 730 sometimes 8 if he is chipper. The last 2 nights he was in bed talking to himself until after 8, so I am watching for OT to creep in, but so far so good.
I hate this switch more than I hate trying to get my newborn to nap right!!! :)
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I don't know how you do it. I have a 4 yr old too but she is self sufficient now. I just told her to go lay down for a nap and sent her upstairs. Of course she is trying to be good so she can go see Toy Story 3 this weekend but the little bribe has worked for us all week.
DD1 was a pacifier kid and I also put a handful of pacifiers in her bed every night. She was a much better sleeper IMO, because of the pacifier. Marlow won't take a pacifier.
Marlow slept the predicted 1.5 hours waking at 1245pm. She's in good spirts and ate a good lunch.
Im guessing I try for a nap at about 3:30pm?
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Im guessing I try for a nap at about 3:30pm?
That's what I would do. I was having luck if I did nap #2 at about 2-2.5hrs.
Honestly, it was like he flipped a switch. I got him off the OT loop, had a week of 2 weird naps, and then this week boom! 1 x 2-3 hr nap every day. In fact I am geting a little nervous, Ryan has been asleep for almost 4 hrs, so I am preparing to wake him. I know he needs it- I am pretty sure he is growing and teething, so any sleep he gets I take!
DD1 was a pacifier kid and I also put a handful of pacifiers in her bed every night. She was a much better sleeper IMO, because of the pacifier. Marlow won't take a pacifier.
This is me now with Elise-I can't get her to take a paci or bottle!! I REALLY pushed paci as she has reflux too and it helped Ry so much, but she won't have it. It also makes it hard to settle the screaming when she gets OT. Ry used to just take the paci and melt into my arms like "thank god my old friend is here!"
I think I hear a baby--Good Luck I hope she gets some sleep and you get some relief!!
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No luck with the second nap so off to bed ASAP. It's 6:30pm and she's still eating. She is the slowest eater. I think paint dries faster than this kid eats.
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That really stinks!! Ryan is pretty slow too. I know there were a few days when dinner started at 4 so we would be done and in bed early enough. I knew he would be waking for a bottle, so I would just give him as much "heavy" carb stuff as I could so it would last in his tummy longer and I also avoided giving him too much fruit or veggie as we were having trouble with poo in the middle of the night.
I really hope things come together for you-I KNOW how maddening this is!
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Sharon,
You've gotten a lot of great advice on here. The 2-1 was tough for my DD as well, especially early on!
Here's what I've noticed. I do think she's clingy because she's really tired, just as calebsmummy has said. My DD acts the same and did especially at the beginning of 2-1. Also, especially after today, I think the long am isn't working for you either, like henry1 mentioned. Unless you are able to force that pm catnap to happen, like in the stroller or in the car, I think it's going to be hard to get it to work, because she keeps refusing it. So, after today's nap, I think you really would have to do a quite early dinner and bedtime at about 6 pm. It does sound scary, just like Mommy Mertel has said, and I was anxious to do it too, but the first time I did was right around 15 mo and my DD slept almost 13 hrs. It really helps get out of and prevent OT.
The other option is to obviously do the short am, long pm. I fought this for the longest time, because just like you I could never figure out when to put my DD down for the second nap as her cues were very unreliable after a CN. So, I kind of had to work it by trial and error (not really my cup of tea, but worth it in the end). I knew if I put her down early she would most likely roll around and then fall asleep close to the right time for her. But if it was too late, she would throw an OT fit. So, after a couple days of putting her down a little early, I was able to find the right time. This was, and really still is, the best way to get out of an EW or OT for my DD. She sleeps much better at night after a longer PM nap.
I think today you probably put her down significantly early. What was her latest consistent morning A? I might try around 3.5 hr A in the morning followed by a 20 min CN. Then go for about 2.5 hr A after and see what happens. She may go straight down and then you'll know, or she may play around for a bit and then fall asleep. After a couple days you should pretty much be able to guage the right time.
I really hope something in here helps. It is a hard time, I remember it well. Lots of hugs!
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Sharon, honey, whatever you do decide to do remember to stick with it for a couple of days, if you go and change on her every other day then you wont see the real results. I went back and forth between the long AM/ short AM route for weeks and didnt give Caleb a chance to really "get" it and that created an OT issue in itself.
We are here for you, wish you lived closed, i could pop over and help you out! :)
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Really good point by Jo!
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Her most recent consistant morning A was about 3 to 3.5 hours. As a general rule she in bed by 930am for her short nap. She was up by 10amish and down by 1230-1pm.
Jo- Good point for me to remember. Thanks.
She was in bed by 730pm (and we rushed to get there) but it took her 45 min to fall asleep. She wouldn't be still. I hate seeing her like this. I don't think she has ever been this OT.
So this morning, she woke up at 7 and by 9am she was playing and then would just lay down for a few seconds. So after 2 hour A, I took her upstairs and she was calm at first but within a few mintues she started doing the OT squirm in my arms, bouncing her leg, pulling my hair, and rubbing her eyes. She seemd tired to me. It took me 2 hr 15 min to get her to sleep. Bedtime it takes me 40 min to get her to sleep after a 6 hour A. What's that all about? Am I totally reading her OT signs wrong? As I wonder that, I also remember that I gave her a 5 hr A yesterday morning and it took me 2 hours to get her to sleep. I didn't even get her to sleep; my MIL did. How long should I try to get her to sleep until I give up? Should I give up? I'm guess I'm questioning if I'm doing the right thing.
Thanks for all your support and advice. It's comforting to bounce ideas and vent with others about this since DH doesn't understand rule #1 about BW.
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Hey,
With my DD I have stopped watching for tired signs as my main cue as she was doing similar things to yours. It sounds like she can definitely handle a longer A time, if she fights it that much. It does sound like you need to find a time somewhere between 2A and 5A and stick with it for a few days and see if it is easier to get her to sleep. 6A is probably too long too (confusing isn't it). My DD who is of a similar age to yours does about 5-6 A but she has been one one sleep for a couple of months.
Good luck, we have been on a rollercoaster for the last few weeks. Can't wait for things to get back to some kind of normal.
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Well one minor bit of good news, she STTN. She slept from 830 to 645am. She hasn't had two naps in one day in over a week. Every day has been a one nap day. I think at this point I just need to bite the bullet and put her on one nap and quit struggling with two naps. She had one nap yesterday waking at 12:45 and handled the resulting A time well. She's always handled the afternoon A time well. Anyway that seems to be the direction she's taking us. So her last longest A that she was able to handle, if she did a long A, was 5 hours. That's a nap time of 11:45pm today. Opinion?
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we are having similar issues here too, Caleb was up for hte day at 5.45am! i took him for a stroll in the pram at 10.15am because he was doing the whole fighting me issue and i knew he wouldnt go to sleep easily, the stroller walk seemed to really calm him and we got back at 10.35, i put him straight to bed and he slept 1 hour 50mins, woke up at 12.30 then we had bedtime at 7pm as per usual. this is really early for him but watching his tired cues and also knowing what he can handle helps. I think maybe you can try a similar thing? doing both watching tired cues, but more around the A times she can handle rather than as early as 2 hours. I think go for the 11.45 naptime, maybe a little less if shes starting to lose it though
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Well as hot and humid as it is here a walk does wear her out. I may try that later.
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I think at this point I just need to bite the bullet and put her on one nap and quit struggling with two naps.
I think everyone gets to this point! Trying to figure out two naps gets really frustrating. It sounds like you have a good plan with the 5 hr A. It might be worth it to stick with it for awhile and see if she will lengthen the nap out. If I were you, though, I'd try to get her in bed earlier if possible (like 6:30 - 7 pm) if you're going to stick with the one nap, because those long afternoon As can really start to build into the OT. And she may settle for bed quicker with an earlier time.
If you notice that she starts waking earlier and earlier and feel more OT settling in, then I'd go for a 2 nap day every once in a while just to prevent going over the edge. But, go back to your previous A of 3 to 3.5 hr. I know she looks tired much earlier, but if she can do a 1.5 hr nap on 5 hr A, then surely you can stretch her past 2 hr in the morning. It's tough because it sounds like she acts much the same whether she's OT or UT, so I'd try to just be as consistent as possible.
How did nap time go today?
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At 11am she started rubbing her eyes so we made the trip upstairs for a nice wind down. We read about 5 or 6 books, I offered her some more milk and she passed on it so I started with getting her to settle. If she's OT she does this bouncy move in my arms which she started doing. I put her in the crib, told her night night, and left. She cried for a minute, then just sat in the crib and did some general fussing. She wouldn't lay down. After about 10 min, she started really crying so I went in. I held her, offered her some milk and she passed out on the bottle. Whatever. She's was asleep. I felt victorious for getting her down in under 30 min. I covered her up with a blanket. That was a mistake. She woke up 40 min later and her head was all sweaty.
Now she's up after a 40 min nap. I'm guessing I'll try to put her down in two hours.
Well, it seems that my test run of 4hr15min was a bit too much for this morning A. That was her A time before I got her into her room. After I got her in the room there was another hour from the time we started wind down to actually falling asleep.
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how did hte rest of hte day go?
ok so we know at the moment that 4 hours 15 mins is too much for her, so lets start dropping it in 15min lots to see what happens, tomorrow aim for 4 hours A time, thats still a reasonable A time for her age. also I wouldnt put her down after two hours, but rather 2.5/3, we found that under 1 year old Calebs A time following a short nap was 2 hours but then it went up to 3 hours, no matter how short the previous nap was, whether 10mins long or 40mins long (it was rather annoying!)
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Well I tried to put her down after 2.5 hours. She was tired but wouldn't go down. I tried for an hour. Singing, rocking, standing still, trying to calm her in the crib but nothing was working. That's been the case lately too. She is resistant to almost all APOP it seems. We had promised my 4 year old that we would take her to see Toy Story 3 tonight. My MIL came over and watched Marlow. I asked her to feed her at 530pm and get her to bed ASAP. She said she had her in bed by 645pm and Marlow didn't put up a fight. I'm expecting an early wake up; I'm guessing 5am. She's a early to bed, early to rise kind of baby. If so, I'm going to give her a bottle and try to put her back down.
I was thinking of her last A time that she was able to handle for the morning A was 3.5 hours. She would do about 20 min, then 3.5 (I think) A, then long PM nap. Then I started having PM nap refusal and here we are.
Update: She woke at 3am, bottle, lots of rocking, and back in the crib asleep by 4am. She woke at 520am and was not going back down. She wanted out of my lap too. I put her down and she pooped. I cleaned her up and tried again to get her back to sleep but she wanted out.
Update 2: Back in bed by 9am with meds after a 5:20am wake up. After 15 min she isn't crying but she is talking and not sleeping.
Update 3: Went in and checked her b/c I thought that she might have pooped some more. She smelled like it but had not, so more bottle a bit of rocking then back to bed. The rocking wasn't working. It took about 20 minutes more for her to fall asleep by herself (yeah!!) without crying (double yeah)!! She was asleep by 10:10am. That's almost 5 hour A. Now I'm torn if I let her sleep or wake her for a short nap. I'm thinking that she had kind of a rough night and since it took her over an hour to fall asleep that I should just let her sleep. Besides I have Alila that is singing with some kids at church today and then a church picnic. UGH. I don't care to go to the picnic but I need to go.
Thanks IKatie, Jo, Jane, and Mommy Mertel (I don't know your name) for helping. I really appreciate it.
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Hi-I'm Sarah :)
Let Her Sleep!! (Just my lil' opinion) I really think she needs to get sleep when she can before you can really help her switch. I say that just bc that's what I had to do with Ryan.
I was also going to add before, and I'm not sure how you feel about this bc you are thinking trust issues, When Ryan was really OT he was fighting every nap as well. He could fall asleep by himself before this all started, so I would put him in his crib at the time I thought he needed to go and said good night and left the room. If he started fussing really hard, I would take him back out and try again in 30 min. If he fussed not hard and kind of babbled, I left him in there for up to an hour. I found he would fall in and out of sleep. But, when I did take him out and he had not been quietly sleeping, I would put him back in crib in about an hour or so. Mostly when he was becoming ubearable!! We would do this song and dance until about 430-445, I would give him dinner and go straight to bed.
I know she really wants you neat, so I am not sure if you want to go that route, it just seemed to work here. Plus it gave me a little break as DD was right in the middle of her colic/gas/reflux stage. I just thought of it as quiet break time for all of us.
HTH-I really want this to work out for you!!!
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yep let her sleep. when they are this OT you let them sleep whenever and however long. how did you go?
Im wondering now also if perhaps you are just going in too much, i know she wants you near her but perhaps DH could help a bit more??? If shes settling really easily for MIL then maybe she will for someone else too. I also let Caleb go for up to half an hour if its not real crying (just got up now from him being awake 5.45am, let him moan/whinge etc till 6.15am then just got up for the day)
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Hiya Sharon, I have total sympathy! This stage sucks. Nathan was doing much of the same as Marlow; EW, NW, nap refusal, and resistance to even the most trusty APOP. I decided to just stop fighting with him and start working towards a one nap day, and once he caught up on sleep and got into the new rhythm he never looked back! There were several days of having to force a second nap (or at least doing my darndest) and NW, but now he is STTN again and naps 2-3 hrs every day. It did take a few weeks, but we got there.
Don't give up, and don't get discouraged! There is light at the end of this tunnel.
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She slept for 1.5 hours this morning. She woke a 1130am with a dirty diaper. I'm sure the need to poop kept her up.
Since we were going to a church picnic I knew she would wear herself out with running around in the suffocating heat and humdity. She was outside for an hour and was a red faced, sweaty, hot mess. I got her home and took her right up to her room at 3 hour A. We read a book, had a bottle, and I put her down at 3.20A. She rolled around then got quiet and still. Success!
Wrong. She started saying "Dada" over and over. Then she got louder and louder with "Dada" and soon she was up and active. I ALMOST got to take a nap. She has handled the day well. She's in good spirits, happy, and playful.
Marlow won't sit quietly and play in the crib if she wakes early. She will be up and complaining to get out with in a couple of minutes.
So I've learned two lessons:
1. If I'm aiming for two naps then the first HAS to be about 20 min. Long AM = PM nap refusal.
2. I can't do one nap a day unless she wakes after 630am
She went to bed without a peep. Now its margarita time.
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Thanks Amy! Thanks Sarah! Thanks Jo! I've been dreading the 2-1.
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Enjoy your drink, Darling! You have earned it.
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I did and I'm ready for another.
Sarah- Every morning that I decide to let her sleep as long as she wants I end up with PM nap refusal. I have to stop it though and stick to a set schedule for a few days. If the short am and Long pm no longer work then its going to be one nap.
I'll have to do what Amy says and set a nap time and go with it come hell or high water.
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Sharon - Caleb is the same in the morning, up complaining, but if its not a distressed cry or a cry where i think he needs food or nappy change, i just leave him there. hes loud, whining, moaning, half crying, but its cold so i am NOT getting out of bed until i feel he really needs it and to be honest, for some reason hes really handled today a bit better, weve yet to have our nap (he would usually be in bed now if i had gotten him up when he woke) and its not too bad, so thats something to consider if you can do it
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but now he is STTN again and naps 2-3 hrs every day. It did take a few weeks, but we got there.
Don't give up, and don't get discouraged! There is light at the end of this tunnel.
I just want to say it will happen. DS took almost 2 months but as of this week we are also back to STTN and so far every nap has been minimum 3 hrs frequently close to 4 hrs. I let him sleep as long as he will, and he still gets an early BT, like today. Slept for 3.45hrs, but was in bed and asleep by 630 because he was beside himself, so I know it is still working itself out in his little body.
I have to stop it though and stick to a set schedule for a few days.
Do whatever you need to do to get some sanity I say :) I certainly do not have the right answers, or it would not have taken me a month to really get this hammered out. I just put out there what helped me in hopes that it might help someone else. (again maybe I should rethink giving advice if it took so long :) )
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Sarah, I'm hoping it doesn't take me a month but it's looking that way since I've been over two weeks. That's one week of me trying to figure it out and one week looking for help on here.
She was up for two hours last night. She would not let me leave the room. When I thought she was asleep, I would sneak out, make it all the way back to my bed, and she would pop her head up looking for me then cry and get up. I had to sit in a chair in her room and wait for her to go sleep which involved her looking up for me periodically until she finally gave in.
So today is trying short nap then long nap. I'm pretty sure she can handle about 3.45 to 4 hr A then a 30 min nap. Then a questionalbe amount of A (2.5? 3?) then long nap.
Please let her long nap today. Mommy needs to sleep.
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ok, how does everyone feel about WI/WO now, nothing else is working and this is what we used to do when it got back, no matter how OT because he just had to sleep. He never did get to the point of not letting us leave but it got bad enough for us. I think if you do it in the night you at least know shes gonna go back to sleep at some point.
what do you think?
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Last night I went the bottle route for the NW but since she is so OT it didn't do much good. I did a bit of WI/WO but she screams the house down. I'm afraid she will wake my 4 yr old or DH.
As I type she is in her crib trying to go down for her morning nap. She's crying. I'm crying. I'm tired. I feel bad because Alila is downstairs all by herself and I'm up here focusing all my time on Marlow.
Marlow got to the panicked cry so I went in to comfort her. After a bit I left her in there. She cried hard for about a minute and is now alternating between crying, yelling, and being quiet. It is now 10:10am and she woke at 615am.
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Well, I would say go ahead and ignore everything I have said...Ryan had a terrible night last night, although I think his is bc of teething.
It seems inevitable that after a a bunch of days of 1 nap he ends up having an EW which does not mess up the first day, but really messes up the next day. So today we will be playing it by ear here, which in my opinion means he will be going to sleep in about 15 min and sleeping until 5 (in my perfect dream world)
I'm afraid she will wake my 4 yr old or DH.
This is part of the reason DD sleeps in the basement and honestly DH has no choice-it is all hands on deck during most NW or EW bc it seems as though my children are magically connected. Even though they sleep no where near on another, if one is waking the other is usually sure to follow (or at least stir) it is super weird!!
I hope your day gets better..it has to get better right?!?
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Funny you say that Sarah because I thought of you after 4hr 15min A. She wasn't having any of going to sleep. OT? Yes she is but can she be UT when I'm trying to put her down ? I started putting her down at 3.5hr A and she fought for an hour. I thought of what you said that if you LO isn't showing that he is tired you take him out and try 30 min later. I took her out and gave her some food and milk. She went back upstairs at 1130 and fought some more. Refusing to lay down and even shaking her head "no" when I told her it was sleepy time. She finally fell asleep in my arms at noon. That's almost 6 hours.
While trying to get her to sleep, I thought that I'm going to make a sleep chart. I'll have to go back and look at all my posts and write down awake time, morning A, nap, after noon A, nap(if it exists), bedtime, NW and EW. Maybe I can see something if its all laid out.
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Also, I've had nothing but one nap days so she is trying to tell me something too. I think I have to give up on the idea of any second nap ever happening.
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I'll have to go back and look at all my posts and write down awake time, morning A, nap, after noon A, nap(if it exists), bedtime, NW and EW. Maybe I can see something if its all laid out.
Post this and we'll take a look. I have missed your thread but I want to help if I can :-)
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Hun, i know you are afraid of waking your daughter up but I think honestly its got to happen, you arent getting any sleep, Marlow isnt getting any sleep and this is just going to continue. Can Alila go to someone elses house for a night or something? I personally think you need to do WI/WO because as I said, its just not working what you are doing now.
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We used WI/WO to get Nathan on track, and it worked very well for us. He wanted reassurance that we were still there, but privacy to go to sleep independantly. DH and I both still use it if need be.
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I know that it has to be done. I can do what I need to do and if Alila wakes up I'll tell her to go back to bed and hope that she doesn't get back up again.
It's my husband that I'm concerned about as well. June through September are crazy busy for him. He's working 6 or 7 days a week. He leaves at 630am and doesn't get home until 7pm at the very earliest. Since he has to work such long days I really hate for him to lose any sleep. Once he wakes up it's difficult for him to go back to sleep. Then he's grumpy and snippy.
Bright spot: Marlow is a notoious 1.5 hr napper but today she slept 1.45! I know its only 15 min but I have some hope that maybe she is going to extend her naps. Tonight, dinner and bed by 7pm which is 5.15 A after her nap.have
My laptop is off having for computer warranty work done so I my husbands slow, old laptop. My point is that it only had a trial version of MS Office on it and that doesn't work now. Thank goodness there is Google Docs.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ai-xxwdhw0qrdGhUelZsTFB3cTdQWUo2U194eGcxNEE&hl=en&authkey=CK-HvcwE
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If you can do it in the weekend when DH doesnt have work that might be better? even if you just say to him its for a couple of nights, so then you all get better sleep. It will be worth it. I did WI/WO at that stage and know what its like but just keep thinking of the end goal :-*
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Alright, so last night she was in bed by 7pm. She woke at 845 -945pm and then another quick NW at 10pm and 330-415am. The 330 NW I let her be for about 10 min and then she fussed. I went in and tried to rock her but she wasn't settling. She wanted a bottle and stories but I told her no. I put her in the crib and let her be. I was sleeping in the guest bedroom which has a computer in it. I hopped on BW and facebook and found Jo!!
Jo coached me through it and told me to hold on. After about 10 min of Marlow crying she finally settled down and fell asleep. YEAH! She slept until 7am.
I had to take DD1 to a swim lesson and I got back at noon. I took her right up and gave her a bottle. She almost fell asleep on the bottle. She did fall asleep on my shoulder. That was 5hr 15 min of A time.
Thanks Jo for helping me!
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Just as I hit post on the above message she woke up from a 45 min nap. :( Now what?
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Hi there, personally I would do early bedtime unless you feel you can get a CN out of her. I think she's telling you she needs more A time with a short nap and some NW for stories and socializing. What are your thoughts on trying her on 1 nap? Her night was actually long in the end, although not solid, but still it would have set her up for a good 1 nap day.
Remember her cries are her wants rather than needs, she's invoking her right to personal attention from mummy, which she is used to getting. I think intervening less is going to teach her quickly that she needs to sort herself out a bit. She's shown you she can do it, now you have to put your faith in her ability to continue this - and the more you convince yourself that she can do it, the more she will get that message from you.
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Wendy, She's had two solid weeks of one nap (sleep chart https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ai-xxwdhw0qrdGhUelZsTFB3cTdQWUo2U194eGcxNEE&authkey=CK-HvcwE&hl=en#gid=0) I've tried to get a morning nap and if I got a morning nap then I tried for a CN which never happened. I can't seem to get two naps out of her. I might take her for a car ride later. Maybe that will knock her out.
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Ok yes just looked at the chart, what's going on with the morning A time, it's fluctuating? She's giving you a decent nap on 5.75, almost 6 hrs A time so could you just stick to that for a few days and do a set bedtime to see if you can even her out? I would keep to the 1 nap unless she gives you less than 1.5 hours to be honest.
Sorry it's tough :-(
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The morning A is all over the place because I kept trying to give her anywhere from 2 hr A (b/c she was rubbing eyes, yawning, laying down) to 4 hour A and a fight always ensued. I'd struggle with her for 30 min to 2.5 hours so the A is whatever A she had.
Yesterday she had a 5.45 A and gave me the longest nap yet.
I jacked this kid up; its all my fault. When she started refusing her afternoon nap I went right to reading sleepy cues. I should have done the simplest thing first, adjust her A.
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It's not your fault, it's just these kids are confusing :-) But I think I would stick with her on that A time since it produced a good nap and a set bedtime for at least a week with no deviation (unless she sprouts several teeth or gets sick or you have to go out etc.) and just ride it out for a while to give her a chance to get her body clock in order. Then tweak from there if things are still wonky. The NW sounds like Jo has you on the right track there :-)
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All I can say is ...The Dreaded A Time...GGRRRR
Having a hard time figuring it out most days for both kids lately.
I hope you are having better luck!
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Hey SHaron, just got up from MY short night with Caleb grrrrrrrr lol anyway im glad she went back to sleep but boy its rough tryihng to figure these LO's out huh? I thought things were supposed to get BETTER as they got older!
so its looking like she can handle about 5 hours 45 A time, has she always been one to jump dramatically in A times? weve only just gotten to 5.5 hours and I though that was high for this age. so I think trying to get another nap in might work, or an early bedtime. then tomorrow try the 5.75 hour A time and see what happens?
Did you give her the bottle before her nap because she needed it for food or comfort?
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She needed the bottle for food b/c she didn't eat much lunch. I didn't want her waking up b/c of hunger.
As a toddler she seems to handle larger jumps in A time better than as an infant. I did a lot of manuvering of her schedule with the short am and long pm so she could very well be ready for 5.45 A time.
I'm trying to get her to take a nap now. She had that 45min nap and now almost 3 hr A. If she doesn't fall asleep in the next 5 min then we are getting in the car.
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sounds like a good plan, the car is our "get out of jail free" card for us ;)
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Plan thwarted by DD1 puking in the car. Luckily, we've trained her to puke in a bag. She has a tell tale cough and whine that she does before puking. I keep plastic bags in the car for such occasions. She gets car sick easily. We can't take car rides longer than two hours. If she looks out her window while the car is in motion it sends shooting pains up her head and makes her sick to her stomach.
I guess its early to bed tonight. For the record, Marlow would've fallen asleep in the car. She was sucking on her finger in the car and had sleepy eyes.
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oh Sharon (((Hugs)))
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Oh Sharon,
I just read your entire thread. Sigh...hugs to you and the entire time I'm reading it, I'm thinking "gosh we mind as well have posted our problems together". It's almost exactly the same! My DD is refusing all naps at the moment. She's on strike apparently and then when we go to get her after raising the white flag, she comes out with a great big smile on her face and is just tickled by the fact that she's out. DH likes to say, "baby 230, mommy and daddy 0"....
Honestly, I've been in the same boat, fighting OT, where she wakes up too early in the a.m. to put down for one nap but is so OT and SA she won't take two naps either. She's been standing and crying/whining/moaning for days now every time I put her down for a nap. I finally realized from so many wonderful mommies that I was being too inconsistent. Because I was trying to do so much trial and error, one day I would give her 3 hours A time and the next day it was 4 hours A time. Then, one nap I may let her fight it out for an hour and 30 minutes and the next day get her after 30 minutes. AlohaKitty helped me realize that there was too much inconsistency and since Sophie is SO touchy, all this unpredictability is driving both her and I nuts. She doesn't know what to expect from me.
All along I have been doing WIWO but it wasn't a really consistent version of it and then today out of desperation we tried GW with my husband and she just sang songs to him and talked to him for most of the time!
I obviously dont' have the answer or else I wouldn't be desperate on my own thread but I just wanted to share that tomorrow I"m going to try something different (to create consistency). I know her A time has jumped so I am going to try to give her one nap and if she wakes up early and the one nap falls earlier in the day I will jsut put her down for early BT, since this also helps conquer OT with some extra night sleep. Then, I've decided that I will give her pain meds (just in case), put her down and just do WIWO until she finally gives in and naps because right now, I'll do WIWO until 45 minutes to an hour or hour and fifteen and then go in and get her and it's so obvious that the minute she gets up it's like "ooo mommy came to get me. Awesome!" The problem is, when I wait an hour later hoping that she's more tired, I try putting her down again and she fights it again and tries to "hold out" a bit longer knowing that eventually I will come rescue her out of bed which is what she wants. So it's become this viscious cycle where I keep trying to put her down, go get her, try again until there's been NO sleep at all and it's 5:30 p.m. and we're both absolutely exhausted. I can't go on with no nap days anymore...so hopefully this will help.
Like Wendy put it so well, it's not that she NEEDS me, she just WANTS me. This put things into perspective to me. I haven't left her ever to CIO so she knows that mommy is there. She just prefers NOT to be somewhere else where she can't play with mommy.
I'm praying that tomorrow she will eventually burn out and after a few more days of being consistent she will realize, okay, so mommy means business when it's nap time.
Sorry I'm writing so much on your thread. I guess I'm saying, I completely know where you are coming from and have actually learned a lot from reading your posts. I will let you know how it goes because maybe, if this works (fingers crossed) it may help Marlow!
We will get through this together =) Hugs xxx
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Lots of hugs to you too. It seems we are always going though the same thing at the same time. I could have written a majority of your post. I haven't had no nap days but I have had two days with a 40 min nap. I made a sleep chart on google documents which helps me see all her days condensed. It also makes it easy to post the link and share it.
Jo had me realize the same about Marlow wants vs. needs. I was going in too much. I just had to leave her alone and really listen to her cries. I was babying her too much too. I was holding her too much and giving in and sitting in her room doing GW.
If I find an answer I'll let you know!
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Sharon,
How was GW working? We tried today, which obviously is just one time but she just really played rather than going down. DH sat in there with her for an hour and twenty minutes until finally realizing that she wasn't going to go down. She was singing songs and saying dada for most of the time..
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It worked but she knows how to fall asleep all by herself so I'm back to WI/WO.
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Okay, me too. Although, the first time you walked me through WIWO was SO much easier I think because she wasn't truly a toddler yet. LOL. Now that she's older, she's much more of a fighter! She will hold her ground much much longer! Sigh...
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I think its only going to get worse as they get older. Can you imagine what our strong willed toddlers will be like as kids/teens? *shudder*
Marlow, by the grace of God, STTN but had an EW. I went in and comforted her briefly then left her. I was right next door to her with the video monitor watching. She cried for a bit then calmed down but never laid down. After 30 min I finally got her up, so we have been up since 5am.
Going with Wendy's suggestion today and doing 5hr45min A before her first nap. That puts me at about 11am for a nap. Hopefully, I can drive her around later today for a CN. Actually, I hope she has a nap longer than 1.5 hrs.
Alila is doing better. She has some prescription anti-nausea medicine left over from the last time she was really sick. We gave that to her last night and she says she feels better. She also knows that if she feels better she can go see her grandma today. She LOVES grandma.
Update: On Wendy's suggestion, I gave her exactly 5h45min A this morning. C'mon long nap!!!! *fingers crossed*
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Ooo did she go down without a fight?! I'm praying for Sophie to go down without a fight too...Good luck! Keep us posted!
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No fight! She went right down. The last time she had 5hr 45min A she slept 1.45min. So far so good! We are approaching the 1hr 45min mark now. I'll let you know how she does.
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Awesome Sharon!! I think I'm realizing now that our LOs' can have this HUGE jump in A time just like that when we least expect it. I'm hoping for a long nap now. Send your long nap vibes my way!!!
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She slept 1.45min exactly but I'm happy with that. I may try a car ride around 4pm to see if I can get her to take a CN in the car. What A time are you going to try? This is a pretty good leap in A time for Marlow.
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Sweet. Honestly, that is a stellar nap and I think you should ride it at least 5 days before changing anything up. She may start to elongate it on her own as she realizes this is her only nap time.
Let's not talk about Spirited tweens or teens hey, one day at a time here lol My head will explode.
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Have just read you thread after posting a similar one myself!! Glad things are improving for you - Gives me hope!!
Good luck with everything!!
Siobhan
xx
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yay for no fighting you going to sleep and yay for a longish nap! we only get 1.5 hour days here, sometimes 1 hour 45mins so that may be all you get in the end but its alot better than what has been happeneing.
and yes, do not mention these spirited kids in their teens, as the Bible says "do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow has enough worries of its own" I dont need to be thinking about Caleb running amuck in his teenage years.... maybe i could ship him off to your place for a holiday Wendy! LOL Finn and Caleb could run amuck together! ;)
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Victory is mine!!!!! I got Marlow take a 1.45 hr nap today AND I got her to take a 20 min snooze in the car. She slept from 5 to 520ish and I'm putting her to bed at 730pm. I know, kind of late in the day for a snooze but I figure with all the OT built up that it should be a wash. We got on the highway and drove about 20 min out into the country. The further I drove the harder she started to cry. I finally gave up and turned around. I had to calm her so I reached all the way back and stroked her shin with my finger. That was all that could reach her. With in a few minutes she conked out! Success!
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Way to go Sharon! Hopefully she has a good night tonight, and you can start to really iron away the residual OT...
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Yahooo!!!!! heres hoping for a good night!!!!
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Here's the kicker, tomorrow I have to leave the kids with my MIL all day. She is really good at sticking to my schedule though and will do exactly as I say. I have to leave at 10am and won't be back until 3pm at the earliest. EEK! I'm nervous because I rarely leave the kids and if I do its carefully planned so that Marlow has had her nap(s) and my MIL won't have to do much.
FYI Alila is doing fine today. There is a 24 hour weak stomach bug going around the church and she got it from my MIL.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow.
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That late afternoon nap came back to bite me from 2 -4am last night. She was awake and cried a little bit but most of the time she just sat there whining. I went in 3 times during the 2 hours to tell her it was sleepy time. The last time I went in I just about gave up and got a bottle but she got quite again so I decided to just go to bed. She fell asleep about 10 minutes later. She got up at 7am. Alright so she is up later in the day than normal so that's good news. She should take her one and only nap at 1245pm.
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Yeah, I'd say if that CN is getting too late, then just go for an earlier bedtime. Keep that nap at that solid A time for a good week (like Wendy has suggested) and see if she doesn't lengthen it out. Hope today goes well with your MIL!
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Good luck today Sharon with your MIL! I know it's always nerveracking leaving your LO with someone else. You are lucky that she follows your directions to a T!
Yesterday I was pondering whether or not to put Sophie down for a CN since she NEVER sleeps in her carseat and frequently refuses her p.m. nap so rather than deciding to fight it, I just put her down for bed super early and she still woke at the same time she usually does.
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How did it go today? Was thinking of Marlow today as I put Sophie down =).
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Maybe Finn and Caleb could hook up with Marlow and Sophie and they could start the Spirited Gang lol
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hehehe, good thinking Wendy! imagine if they all got married and had superspirited babies!!!! LOL
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What a great idea Wendy! I can already imagine them talking..."OT Crib Party at my house...2 a.m.!"
By the way Jo, I saw your darling Caleb's game with the little man under the bowls....SO cute! I think I shall try this with Sophie tomorrow!
What would I do without you ladies and a little bit of laughter!?!
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This is weird. I've posted 2 replies and neither are showing up.
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Ok so last night she woke me at 2am and wouldn't go back to sleep. She sat quietly and I went in her room 3 times in those two hours to tell her "sleepy time". I can't sleep if she isn't asleep. Eventually I just decided, screw it, I'm going to sleep. She would eventually go to sleep. She was just sitting there quietly, but would whine on occasion. She fell asleep at 4am. She woke briefly at 5am, 6 am and was up for the day at 7am.
Nap time was at 1245pm. My MIL put her down at 12:30 but she rocked her to sleep. I forgot to tell her to just put Marlow in the crib. Anyway Marlow would fall asleep on her shoulder then my MIL would try to transfer her to the crib. As soon as she laid her down Marlow would pop her head up and cry. She picked her up and did it two more times. The last time she sat there for a long time before putting her in the crib at 130pm and she slept solid until 3pm.
Do you all think that I could count most of that hour between 1230 and 130 as rest? If, so that means she took a roughly 2.5 hour nap.
Katie80 -Good to see you!
Tao- Thanks for thinking of us.
Wendy - You were right about that 5.45 hour A time...so far;)
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I would definately count it as rest, there was no physical activity going on
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Thanks Jo. That's what I thought.
She slept soundly from 730pm to 615am. Actually, she woke up at 930pm, sat up, cried, stopped and looked around, then laid back down! GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAL! I was super excited to see that. I told DH that was a very good sign. He showed some excitement but he really didn't understand how cool it was. ;) Ah, well I appreciate the attempt.
So a 615 wake up means a noon time nap.
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yes!!!! so looks like things are on the homestraight!!! well done Sharon, youve done really good!! :) I think personally it was a mixture of A time adjustment and hanging back instead of going in to her all the time :)
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I'm so happy for you! It looks like we are both seeing some success finally =).
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Her nap was 1.5 hours long. So she woke at 135pm. I kept her in her room until almost 2pm just so she would have the extra bit of down time. She was in bed by 745pm because we went to dinner. I hope all goes well tonight. Jo I totally agree. I think it is a combo of the two. She's going down with less and less crying. She still wants me to hold her when I put her in the crib but after I leave there isn't as much of a fight for me to come back in there.
Thank you both!!
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I was suspicious of her 1.5 hr nap. I wondered if her nap going from 1.45 to 1.5 could be a sign of OT creeping back in and now she woke at 530am. I think she's going back on the OT track. I'm going to try for 2 naps today. I just have no idea what A times to use. In the past, I just deducted one hour from her usual A time and went with that. I guess that's what I'm going to have to go with unless anyone else has a better idea.
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Well, well, well, she went down without a peep at 910am. That's 3.5 hour A and she was ready for a snooze. I think I'm going to give her a 20 min nap then try to put her back down at 1pm.
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Sounds good to me! With Nathan, we had to sneak in a second nap ever few days for a while, until he made the adjustment. Even now, when he has been consistently on 1 nap for almost 2 months, I sometimes have to try for a CN in the afternoon. It is a process, that's for sure!
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I even did 2 naps with my 21 mo (currently teething canines) old yesterday!! We don't do them very often, but when she's headed into that dreaded teething OT and has a short night, it's the only thing that gets her through the day.
I'd say you're right on with your assessment, Sharon. The 2-1 is really a matter of being flexible with what they need to get through it. If she'll still do the 2 naps, I'd go with it, and then go right back to 1 as the OT eases.
One other thing, I'd watch her really closely after the 20 min nap. She may be ready to go back down at 12:30, or could last until 1 pm. It's different for all kids, but my DD still hovers around 3 hr A after the 20 min nap.
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Marlow had a 3hr15min A between naps and slept 1.20. She seemed a bit OT when she went down so I'm not too surprised that she had an OT nap. Whatever! She had two naps today! It looks like my formula is one day 5.45hr, but I may drop that to 5.30, for one nap days. Two nap days 3.5 A in the morning, then 3 hr, then nap! I hope I'm right.
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I think you are right! Sounds like a good plan to me!
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She woke early yesterday and today regardless of her pretty good nap day. Hmmmm. I think its her teeth. I'm going for a two nap day today.
Update: She had a 30 min AM nap waking at 945am. She had some playtime outside with DD1 and my niece then I had her back in bed at 1245pm. It took her 35 min to fall asleep. She fell asleep at 118pm and woke at 237pm, another 1.20min nap.
I think yesterday it was OT but today it was UT. Bedtime will be the usual 730pm.
Anyone have an opinion?
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I think it's UT, both days. Taking that long to go off doesn't seem OT to me at this age. Normally OT they can drop off quick but do a much shorter or unsettled nap and wake crying. So if you do 2 naps I think she needs a lot more A time in there. When you say woke early in the AM what do you mean, what time and/or after how many hours night sleep?
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She's waking at 530am. She will usually get up at 6 or 630 on a good day.
The reason I say yesterday PM nap was OT is because she was doing the OT dance in my lap before I put her in the crib. She went down in about 10 minutes. Today, I think UT because she took 35 min to go down. She woke crying after both naps.
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AHHHHH... She slept from 730 until 645am this morning. No NW in days and today she is in really good spirits. I'm aiming for a one nap day with a nap time of 1230pm. I think I've got this under control now. If I need more help I'll be sure to come back.
Thank you all of you for helping me through this. You are all so amazing!
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Awesome, you are working with her, responding to her needs, allowing flexibility when needed, yet being firm to keep her on track with a routine. Can't beat that BabyWhispering - well done Sharon.
We'll still be here if the train derails. But for now choo choo, chugga chugga, choo choo!
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LOL Wendy, can i get on that train :) please?? hehehe
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I'm so happy for your Sharon!!!! You have always been great at reading Marlow's cues and knowing what she needs. =)