BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: weatherlyn on June 28, 2010, 15:24:48 pm
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hello everyone my DS is five months old and a touchy angel. he is the most darling baby when he is awake nothing fazes him he is so happy coos at everything and everyone and rarely cries. His touchy side comes out re sleep and food. His older brother is a spirited textbook who i sleep trained at the same age and it only took two weeks or so to produce an independent sleeper. Sebastian is a totally different kettle of fish. i followed the BW principles from day one and i have rarely used AP. He doesnt take a dummy and is bottle fed.
The slightest things disturb his sleep and set him off. His startle reflex is incredibly strong still and his jolts wake him every nap time at the forty min mark from when he was 7 wks old. He has started rolling at night, and he cant seem to go with the flow. He gets incredibly upset by the movement and cant self settle and i have to go in and pupd. if i leave him to sort himself out (as i did with his spirited older brother who would roll around the cot and shout and carry on but eventually go back to sleep) he will mantra grunt and groan for about half an hour and then start crying, at which point i pick him up till calm (usually a very short pu) but then his wide awake and just staring at me, so i kiss him goodnight and put him back in his cot and then the whole thing starts again and this can go on for up to two hours . He has a luvvie, but when he gets upset he grabs it and instead of calming him it seems to get him more worked up. I use a white noise machine and the room is very dark and i have tried to decrease the cot space by rolling towels in soft blankets and placing them on either side of him to act as a kind of movement buffer. It helps but only a little. he has very little in the way of sleep cues (rarely cries or rubs his eyes or yawns ) so i clock watch but if i am five mins off (either little OT or UT) at naptime the nap is only thirty mins long and i have to do PUPD.
Sleep was much better when he was fully swaddled. Naps would be 1.5 hrs provided that i went in a the forty min mark and HTTJ. Then he would give me a 1.5 hr nap. He would sleep through the night fully swaddled from an early age and always go down indep. He rarely falls asleep on a bottle at bedtime. However from about three weeks back he started breaking out of the swaddle and rolling and sleep is now a disaster area. I have tried one arm out, a woombie the works. I live in the south of italy and its very hot so now i am using a 0.5 tog grobag. At every nap he wakes at the 35 min mark with a jolt (huge one), the arms start waving about, he starts screaming and he cant resettle himself so i have to go in and do PUPD for 10 mins. And he would sleep through the night. now every nap is a round of PUPD and he wakes at least twice before midnight with the rolling and then we are up from about 2 am till 4 am with the grunting and rolling and crying and wide awake calm stare cycle.
I guess i just want to know: WHEN DOES IT END? DO TOUCHY SLEEPERS EVENTUALLY SORT THEMSELVES OUT OR THIS A LONG HAUL THING? Do i need to prepare myself for another five months of the same? does the startle reflex eventually lessen ? will the new found mobility stop bothering him? will he be able to grab his luvvie and calm himself with it instead of working himself up even more? am i doing something wrong? will there be a future where my child can curl up with his teddy and stay asleep?
i figure that the five different temparaments must have diff sleep habits but i cant seem to find any info on it in the book or on the site. All it says in the book is that touchy babies are highly reactive and wake at the slightest thing. I am so tired and so fed up of shush pat and pupd......please share your success stories i really need a morale booster.
many thanks lynsey
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My son is also a Touchy Angel, with sleep and food being the issues. I can totally sympathize with your frustration! The first months in our house were spent trying to figure out how this little guy could sleep happily and what set him off. The main reason my son ever struggled with NW and EW was when his A times were off. With Touchy LO's, even a 5 minute too long or too short A time can throw them off and cause sleep problems. That was really our main problem, always struggling to find the perfect A time for him. When we had it, though, his Angel characteristics kicked in and he slept perfectly.
So... as for how long it lasts. Nathan STTN for the first time at 7 months. He did it again the next week, and then started doing it a few times a week soon after that. By 8 months, he was doing it half the time. At 11 months, he started doing it consistently unless he was sick or teething. Now, at 14 months, he is an excellent sleeper who sleeps 11-12 hrs at night and takes a 2-3 hr nap each day. So we really struggled for a long time, but now I am the envy of my friends! Especially the ones with children Nathan's age. DH and I were even confident enough to go away overnight last month, while my sister came so stay with our son. We knew that he would be fine and STTN, and he did. It was awesome!
It will pass, as long as you keep up with EASY and stay consistent. Pay close attention to your LO's A times, especially if he is OT (which he might be, since he isn't sleeping well right now). Can you post your EASY, so we can take a look at it? Maybe someone can spot something and suggest some changes. Oh, and at 5 months his startle reflex really shouldn't last much longer. Shame the Woomie didn't help; we used that and had good results.
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Hi,
My DD2 is a touchy/spirited...sleep, food, people & routine changes are the main issues. I remember having to follow an exact winddown, to the letter at the exact right time when she was little...she started STTN at about 6.5/7 months,which was the same time she became attached to her blanky.
Her sleeping habits are a bit less touchy as far as timing goes (went to one anp at 10 months...that was like night & day) Still touchy about the setting of her room - pitch black, fan & white noise DVD, particular comforter, blanky & toys and she is fine. Plus, she can manage a decent nap at the IL's and daycare, where the setting is completely different.
I don't have time to write everything right now...need to get the kids to bed, will be back!
(oh, and a strange thing is she still has massive jolts in her sleep...I had no idea until one night she'd had a nightmare and I was snuggling with her!)
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thank you thank you thank you ladies just the fact that i am not alone has helped so much. teilvnav, you are so right about the A times, Sebs older brother is spirited and so our house is pretty noisy, and the fact that LO has nearly no sleep cues to speak of, i clock watch nap one and usually get it right, but no 2 and 3 have me pretty much stumped a time in the morning is 2 hrs 10 and i was keeping A time in the afternoon at 1.5 hrs cause reckoned he must be ot but they were always 30 mins and took me a while to resettle. then i read rec A times for 5 mths was 2 t0 2.5 hrs so increased aft A time to 2 hrs too (no sleep cues either way !!!) he is now easier to pd still wakes at 35 min but very quick round of pupd resettles him. do you think i should increase it some more ? is aft A time usually longer or shorter than morning A time with touchys ? my spirited LO had longer A time in the afternoon longer by a whole half hour but he also had very def sleep signs.
he actually slept right through last night 12 hr stretch which is always something he did from 1mth old, but only fully swaddled. Since i stopped swaddling the night wakings started so lets hope last night wasnt a solitary event!! we also had another first at nap this morning: usually when i put him in the cot drowsy and half asleep, if his hands move or he involuntarily touches his face he starts screaming and i have to pu again. this morning, i put him in, his hands flew to his face, he rubbed his eyes and.... he didnt start shouting or crying he just sighed and rolled over and went to sleep. he will prob wake up at the 40 min mark and i will have to pupd but hey i wll take any progress at this point.
my other q: when you all did the sleep training with your touchys how did they feel about sh pat? seb HATES IT!! if he is upset and in his cot and i lean over and pat his bum or hum or sh he goes nuts and pulls my hair and i get hit in the face. i have to pick up, even if only for a few seconds. luca was the opposite he hated being picked up i did all the sleep training in the cot, and as a result i have been feeling like i am doing it wrong this time round. also luca had a very def mantra cry a full on scream like someone had a cig to his thighs !! seb mantra... grunts? what were your los like with sleep training
i think we def need a sticky topic in sleep issues about the five personality traits and how they sleep and handle the sleep training and advice from moms that have developed tricks to handle their los quirks.
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Yay for a 12 hour night! We had a hard time ditching the swaddle, for the longest time I just swaddle her legs.
I started using shh/pat at around 3 weeks, but I never shh, just patted. She liked it only if I could keep perfect time with the patting...such a picky girl. Her mantra was very loud, the only way I figured it out was that it never got louder, kept the same intensity and wasn't an "get in here now!" kind of cry.
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Each baby is different, so even if they are one of the five types things might work differently on different children! I can tell you that for Nathan, he did (and still does) need a shorter am A time. And once he starts to show signs of being sleepy, it is too late. I have to watch the clock once I figure out what A time is proper, and start his wind down 15 minutes before that.
There is definitely an adjustment when you stop the swaddle, and hopefully he is getting used to it. That is so great that he just went to sleep independantly. It is such a milestone for them to suddenly be free to touch their face; at that age they are only barely aware of what body parts they have and can scare themselves easily.
Nathan responded well to shush pat as an infant, but by a few months of age he no longer liked the shush. Also, he never liked being patted on the back but prefered a gentle rhythmic tap on his bum. What we really never had any success with is PU/PD. I know it works wonderfully with some LO's, but it made things worse with Nathan. He would scream, and scream, and scream until we were both crying. At about 8 months I started using a modified version of WI/WO, which is a toddler technique and isn't appropriate for a 5 month old (but might work when he is a bit older!).
At some point, too, I just stopped trying to extand his naps. It was no use; he would sleep 45 min, and then just cry for the other 45 min as I tried to resettle him. I started just letting him up when he awoke, and shortening his next A time by the amount that the nap had been shortened. If he missed 45 minutes of his nap by waking early, then I shortened his A time by 45 minutes.
It must be so hard having two children and experiencing these problems. I know that it took a while of really watching my son very closely, experimenting with different things to see what worked and what didn't, and just having lots of patience that got us through those hard months. I would start a journal for his sleep, so you can see how things work on paper. Make notes of what techniques you use to get him to sleep and extend naps, and write down if it worked or not. Also keep track of his A times on paper and play with their length, writing down if that helped or made things worse (remember that it takes at least 3 days for any changes to have dependable results). And don't lose hope; it will get better eventually!
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thanks again for all the good advice, teilvnav and masynandspencer. he pretty much slept through last night as well and i am starting to think that he may just need less daytime sleep than his older brother because i never get those early evening wake ups that are so characteristic of OT. I really need to crack the code of his A time though. I found Lucas sleep journal and at five months his morning A time was 2hrs and his afternoon 2.5. Do either of you remember what your touchys afternoon A time was at five months? and can i also pick your brains about wind down rituals? luca needed a really long wind down that i actually divided into two sep parts but seb seems to get impatient if i try and make it longer than 10 mins. any ideas?
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hey lynsey
when I was having dramas with Isaac one of the mods here suggested i shorten our wind down and it worked a treat. Now its takes about 7 mins. I hold him and sing a song then put him in the cot and stroke his head and sing another song, then kiss goodnight/nap. Really quick, little intervention...I think Seb its super sensitive so maybe try toning it all down to a really minimal level...see what happens. And at 5 months I think we had an A time of around 2.5 hrs...pretty much same as Luca, but to be honest we didn't get our routine really cranking till towards the end of 6 months...
sending hugs
xxxx
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Nathan has never wanted a long wind down; he knew what was coming and just wanted to get to it. At 5 months we would start about 15 minutes ahead of the nap with quiet stories and snuggling, then rock in the rocking chair in his room with songs for a few minutes. That was it, once we figured out his exact sleeping requirements; a fan for white noise, a gro-bag rather than a blanket, a lovie, a soother, and a very dark room. Now that he is 14 months our basic routine is still the same, but I can start as little as 5 minutes ahead of his nap and he will still sleep well.
I will have to check about his A times and get back to you...
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The only time Spencer had a long wind down was when I needed to increase A time, otherwise it was short & sweet! I never kept any logs as far as A times go, and I have not alot of recall other than when we did the 2-1.
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hi everyone thanks for the wind down tips i have a little balcony off my bedroom with a huge pine tree outside and i have been taking seb out there for five ten mins as part of the wind down and snuggling and singing out there. do you think maybe its too stimulating what with the tree and the leaves etc? twice now i have put him down for a nap after 2 hr morning A time, he has gone down easy enough - but woken up after 15 to 20 mins and when i try to resettle as soon as i pick up, he calms and is wide eyed and staring around the room so pupd is moot and so put back in cot after five mins he starts cryng and so pick up and then wide eyed and staring again but very very calm. is this OT or UT ?! i really need to crack the A time, but like i said, No sleep cues!!
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Here is a chart to help you with approximate A times for babies...
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652
At 5 months, Nathan was doing 2 hrs first thing in the morning and 2.5 hrs for his two afternoon A times. That was, of course, if he had good naps; if they were short, then his A time got shortened by the amount if sleep he missed.
It does sound like he is going down overstimulates (OS). I would start calming him down about 20 minutes before the nap with quiet words, songs and stories to ease him into sleeping. The balconey sounds lovely, but maybe you could try just looking through the glass for a few days, and see if that helps at all? Hopefully your other son is ok occupying himself for a bit while you sooth DS2 into a sleepy mood...
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Hi Weatherlyn;
As a Mommy with a fellow Touchy, I can REALLY relate. It's taken quite a bit of tweaking but here's what I've found works for us.
We're on a 4 hour EASY (and have been since about 12 wks and he's 16 wks now) - We keep the first half of his "A" time (one hour) the most stimulating (ex: Jumperoo, infant play gym, walks outside ect.) The second hour is much more low key. He really enjoys being in the infant carrier (baby bjorn), so a lot of times I will put him in and we'll do little chores around the house. He'll sometimes sit in his bouncer chair with his blankie that he gums on or we'll read a story. I found that anything more active in the second half of his "A" time makes it much more difficult to calm him to sleep.
His wind down to nap is fairly simple. The biggest cue for him that it's sleep time is his Swaddler, but I understand your L/O is starting to move out of his. We do keep one arm out, as Charlie sucks his thumb to self sooth. He has started to roll however, so I'm sure we'll have to wean the swaddler soon. We sing a lullaby and have a rock in the rocking chair, by then he's sucking his thumb and he's in bed. We use shhh/pat - I find it very effective with him. Most of the time I only pat. In teaching him to sleep, I made sure I stayed in the room past the 10 min and 20 min jolts - now he gets through them on his own (most of the time). If not, I just pat and he settles. Also for naps, we did just get through lots of work doing nap extending - going in at the 40 min mark to shh/pat. He'll sleep for 2hrs AM nap and 2 hrs PM nap and has a 1/2 hr to 45 min CN (There’s his Textbook side coming out!) But it took a good 3 weeks to get the nap extending to that point, and he still sometimes needs my help at the 45 min mark.
I had tried PUPD, but I found that to be too stimulating for him and he got more wound up. He would settle eventually, but it took twice as long as it would if I just shhh/pat. Like yours, I also found him to get more physical if we did PUPD. You mentioned your l/o is flailing his arms and hair pulling when you PUPD? I think I remember reading that if your baby seems to be fighting you like that, its best to try and use your reassuring words in a calm tone, and also patting ex: “It’s okay, your going to sleep”, “I know it’s hard, you can do it”… ect. You don’t want to make it a struggle or a fight to go to sleep. I don’t know if this will make sense, but its kind of like Yin and Yang, if they go hard (Yin) – you go soft (Yang). The 2 of you in a struggle will just upset him more. That’s what I’ve found anyways.
I just mentioned this in another post, but at night, one thing that has really helped us has been to push back bath time. At first I was doing bath fairly close to bed. He gets VERY excited in the bath and pretty wound up. I think it was over stimulating him and not giving him enough wind down time, so now bath time is right after his CN (around 5:30 - 5:45). I also keep the bath fairly short at this point. Usually 15 mins max. That gives him plenty of time to relax before bed. With our "pre-wind down" of stories, and our wind down of a lullaby in the rocking chair, he happily settles himself in his crib to sleep by 7:30 - 7:45. He STTN until 7am (with a DF at 11pm)
Also, we have put up black out blinds in his room, it needs to be very dark for him to settle. We also use a white noise machine. (there’s construction all around our subdivision, so you can just imagine the noise we’re trying to block out!)
So, I guess you can say it does take a lot of work, but it’s SO worth it! He’s such a happy little boy, and I really attribute it all to BW. I know how discouraging it can be… I was in tears quite a few times while we were nap extending… but I committed to the sleep teaching for my little guy, and it really has paid off.
HtH a little! ((hugs)) to you and your little Touchy. Here’s hoping for a good night sleep!
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I don’t know if this will make sense, but its kind of like Yin and Yang, if they go hard (Yin) – you go soft (Yang).
I love this. I am going to use this advice for others...
so many great ideas tigerlilly, thanks.
Lysey - have you tried baby massage after bath? I told my reflexologist that i was having trouble fitting the massage into the BT wind down routine and she suggested I do it for one of the day naps instead, might make him sleep better in the day. I haven't done it but could be worth a try - that is if you can find something to distract Luca for lone enough. The massage only needs to be 5 mins, 10 max
xxx
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wonderful ideas everyone thank you, danni honey what do you use to massage with? i tried with luca and he hated massage, seb loves it but am trying to find an appropriate massage oil (will have to buy on internet) any recommendations from anyone? teilvnav, i am very very lucky at the moment, my parents are here on holiday for three months! yippee yay!! so while i try and sort the little one out, they occupy my toddler, i know i am very very lucky and my head (and heart) is at peace knowing my two little boys are getting the max attention possible. i have had a breakthrough with sebatian last week or so, and its something i tried a month or so back when danni first suggested it and it didnt work but now it works like a charm: i have composed (ha ha wagner here i come) a little ditty lullaby and it has so replaced shush pat i just have to put him in cot after a little cuddle and snuggle and then place my face really close to his, almost cheek to cheek and i hold his hands and sing it to him and he just drifts off. so thank you danni. i have also extended his A time by nearly half an hour and he is going down no probs , so i think that angel part of personality was coming out so he was going down anyway but wasnt tired enough to stay asleep (as opp to spirited brother he would not go down if he wasnt tired enough). he is still waking at forty min mark at second nap of day so that A time needs bit of tweaking.
Tiger lily, i have also stopped taking him out on balcony, we just watch through window, and youre right it works much better, as does a shorter wind down. i have also discovered that seb is so not a textbook baby and he actually sleeps much better at night and goes down better at bedtime if the catnap is not close to bedtime at all-there has to be a 3 hr gap between the last nap and bedtime. so if the second nap ends later, i dont even put him down for the cat nap and bedtime is twenty mins earlier and it works like a charm. so finally, finally i feel like i am cracking it! this all said, it will work great guns for now and i will be back on in a weeks time! ha ha
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Yay! It feels so good to start to get it sorted out, eh? It is a process for sure, but you will come out of this knowing your son so, so well. Just keep tweaking until you find what works.
We just use baby lotion for Nathan's massage, by Johnson and Johnson. They make an aromatherapy one for bedtime (it has a matching baby wash as well), but they make several scents that smell wonderful.
And that is awesome about your parents; what a blessing!
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We also use the Johnson and Johnson lavender bedtime bath and lotion for our night time routine. Seems to work very well for us too - and Charlie loves his massage. :)
Happy to hear things are starting to click for your l/o! Lots of TLC and BW will do the trick I'm sure. xo
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Hey Lynsey - have had computer probs but back on now and YAYAYAYAY!!! Sounds like things are looking up over there.
For the massage we use almond oil. I am not so into the Johnsons as its made from mineral oil (ie. petroleum based) its not such a bad thing for the baby but not so good for the environment.
You can put 2 drops of lavender essential oil in the mix but don't put too much as its quite strong.
And almond oil is cheap as chips. You'll be able to pick it up from your local market in Italy, and another good oil is a high quality cold pressed virgin olive oil which I think you will have no prob getting where you are.
sending you love
d x
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can you all believe that i could only get back onto this site today!?? i dunno what went wrong but if i put in the usual address ended up somewhere else, and today in desperation i googled tracy hogg message boards and ended up here via forums does anyone know why? have tried the almond oil and the olive oil, i cant find the j and j ones here but the other two working a treat. we are once again on 35 min naps ha ha his a time needs sorting out i have stopped clock watching and going on tired signs only and A time is now nearer the 3 hour mark, but the morning nap has gradually decreased to forty mins anyway. reading the book it said that touchys at the six month mark can sometimes be on a long mid morning nap and one cat nap and i have a feeling that we will be ending up there eventually......... so back to gentle pupd with lullaby to extend naps but the morning one, even with me watching def sleep signs of tired cry and eye rubbing (at about 2 hr 40 min mark do down for nap by 2 hr 50 0r 2 hr 55 latest)he wakes at forty mins, tries to self settle a lot of groaning and talking to self for about ten mins and then he starts to cry but when i go in he is wide awake smiling and calm. so no point in pupd. any ideas?? danni i have missed you my friend!!
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Lynsey! I'm back!
Oh my love, I cant believe that no one has replied to this since you posted. So sorry.
I'll PM you with news about our trip later but just wanted to relay what was happening with us when we faced the same issues.
How old is Seb now? I forgot...
When I managed to increase I's naps from 20 min nightmares we managed to get it to 40 mins. and that was it...I could never ever extend past 40 mins for ages. So, i just left it at that...so he would have first nap of 40 mins and if we were lucky 2nd nao would be an hour or an hour 20 mins. He did that for ages. He would be cranky by bet time...we did early BTs. Then he hit 8 months and everything fell into place. he was having morning naps between 1-2 hours and an pm nap of the same averaging 2.5 to 3 hour in day naps. Its not what the book says exactly but it was good enough for me and for him...
any way - we are at MILs in UK for 2 weeks before heading back to the island. PM me when you get the chance.
kisses
d x
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i have been very scarce it has been a long summer very busy but just wanted to say thank you to all you mums that helped me with this. Seb is finally doing great with naps and i have managed to crack his code, he has a longer than normal A time for his age, nearly four hours and was consistently trying to put him down at what was appropriate for his age, and that was why i had no tired cues-he wasnt tired. his sleep cycle is also shorter than normal, 35 mins as opposed to the usual forty so him waking after 30 i think was because he was undertired. what has helped the most is that he has finally formed an attachment to his bunny and no longer needs mom to resettle as long as bunny is within arms reach. The white noise is still very nb and so is a short wind down, if i take longer than 5 mins he gets very agitated.
he is still touchy, if he does wake it is absolute murder to get him to go back down and the slightest thing will startle his sleep but at least he is an indpendent sleeper and pretty much goes through the night. it has been a long long road nearly five months to get where we are, much much longer than it took with his spirited textbook brother(a few weeks) but consistency does pay off-in the end. thanks again for all the great advice and i hope this post helps other mums with touchy newborns out there.
lynsey x
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i have managed to crack his code, he has a longer than normal A time for his age
Congrats!! What an awesome update!! Sounds just like DS, he too has longer then Avg A times for his age... I'd be going bonkers if I tried to keep him on the avg's! LOL
Our touchies are tricky ones sometimes, aren't they!? LOL... but they're so wonderful and sweet, I wouldn't have it any other way!
Glad to hear the rest of your summer went well. xo
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Glad to hear that things are going well, Lynsey!