BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: empowered mama on July 08, 2010, 14:23:11 pm
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hello all,
We recently started transitioning my almost 10 month DS to short AM/long PM nap routine and have a few areas that need tweaking - I'm not sure where to adjust. He no longer is refusing his 2nd nap, but is having a hard time settling to bed and we are getting EWs. Our current routine looks something like this:
Awake @ 6:00
E - 7:00
A - 3h35
S - 9:35 (1 hr nap)
E - 11:00
A - 3h40
S - 2:15 (1.5 hr nap - often he wakes halfway through, fusses for 5 min, then finishes the nap)
E - 3:45
A - having a hard time getting this A time - try putting him down at 3 hr, but often doesn't settle for 20-30 min and then we get the EW
S - 6:45-7:15ish
Before we made the shift to the short AM nap, I was able to APOP the EW all the time to get another hour or so out of him. Now AP doesn't work with this new schedule and not sure why. Wondering if I should cut the AM nap a bit shorter? Or adjust somewhere else?
Any thoughts ladies? TIA :)
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Hi there, hmm need to ponder. I agree, I wonder if he's ready for the 45 min AM? If he's not tired enough to go back to sleep at the EW and wakes happy and playful, then he's probably getting too much sleep somewhere, likely in the day. The routine looks good really but I think he needs more last A time - I don't think 3 hrs is enough in light of all his day sleep.
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hi wendy and thanks for your response :)
So last night I took your suggestion and stretched the last A to 3.5 - he didn't settle to sleep until 3.75 and we had an EW at 5:10 this morning, just 9.5 hrs after bedtime. This one definitely seemed OT and I was able to AP him back for another hour or so.
I've been thinking about this, and wonder if the fact that his day is so long is playing a factor? With the 2.5 hrs of naps and 10.75 hrs A time, his day ends up being nearly 13.5 hrs long. Do you think this matters? Maybe by shortening the 1st nap we can then shorten the next A and get an all around decreased day?
What do you think?
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Hi there, yeah I really do feel like a nap cut is in order here. It could be that the day is just too long but he needs more A time. It's such a fine line at this age. Sorry about the EW - yuk. I would give a shorter nap a try to see if it helps things.
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Thanks Wendy - yes, I do think you're right on that. The past few days we've done the 1 hr AM nap, and he's been giving me a 1 hr PM nap, regardless of A time. It's like he's cutting his day sleep on his own or something.
I think maybe a 45 min AM nap maybe? Also, do you think it's important to put him down for nap #1 UT? Generally he wakes himself after an hour and is in a good mood. I know I can stretch the first A, but am curious if this will affect anything. IDK - just thought I'd pick your brain ;)
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Hmm....well we're a little stuck on the PM nap right now - can't seem to get it past 1 hour. Here is what the day looked like:
Awake @ 7:25
E - 8:25
A - 3h50
S - 11:15 (45 min nap - woke him)
E - 12:25
A - 3h45 (took 20 min to settle)
S - 3:45 (1 hr nap)
E - 4:45
A - 3h15
S - 8ish
He woke crying from the 1 hr nap, and still seemed tired. Have you ever experienced an OT 1 hr nap before? Can't quite tell if I should push him on the 2nd A or somehow cut back (sleepy cues are absent). Definitely he is having a hard time settling to bed because of OT and of course the EWs persist.
Any thoughts on how to adjust Wendy? TY :)
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Im just wondering if i can jump in on this thread, but i experienced what you experienced with your lo i had the EW and some OT.
It looks like the first A time is too long and because he is only having a 45 min nap he is already Ot bfore the nap and upon waking, therefore the next A time is long and his OT is increasing by bedtime. i would try this for eg
7am wake
10.00am sleep (45 min wake him up) 3 hours A
10.45am wake
2.15pm (1 hour 30 min nap) or more (3 hours 15 - 3 hour 30 A) depending on your lo
3.45pm wake
7pmish bedtime (3 hour 15 A)
Total A time roughly of 9hrs 45 and day time sleep of 2 hour 15, total day of about 12 hours. Give or take 5 min here and there
My lo was waking OT from the first nap because i would keep her up for about 3 hour 30 first A time, when she did not need the first A time to be long, as its only a CN, you are best to use up the rest of her A time throughout the day and most importantly the last A time.
Im at 30 mins AM and 2 hour PM, i have noticed that since cutting the AM nap down my lo is making up for the sleep in her PM nap which is great.
I think your lo is OT and i would cut the AM nap first and see how you go for a few days and see if the EW are still there.
hope this helps kirsten
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Hi there Carrie, pp has some good points, that first A time is pretty high. You may want to cut back to 3.5 or less and then offer the shorter nap, then another 3-3.5 hrs A for the longer nap.
Also, do you think it's important to put him down for nap #1 UT? Generally he wakes himself after an hour and is in a good mood. I know I can stretch the first A, but am curious if this will affect anything. IDK - just thought I'd pick your brain Wink
This is kind of what we are talking about here. The first A doesn't need to be too high but enough that they will want to nap and enough so as to not reinforce any EW. I wouldn't say UT exactly, but just tired enough :-)
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Wow ladies, this advice has been so helpful to me :)
We scaled back on the As today, and would you believe we got a decent 2nd nap?! Ended up being 1h10min and seemed a little OT, so will scale back a titch more on A time tomorrow. I am so surprised at this, as I thought I needed to keep bumping this kid when really he was just OT.
He settled in quite well for bed, so we shall see if Mr. EW comes to visit tomorrow. Really thankful to be making progress - appreciate your help so very much :)
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Well hmm....we are back to that 1 hour seemingly OT PM nap again. Today has gone something like this:
Awake @ 7:40
1st A = 3h20 (put him down at 3h, but just didn't seem quite ready for the nap)
Nap # 1 = 45 min (woke him)
2nd A = 3h10
Nap # 2 = 1 hr
Do you think we would do well to bring back the AM 1 hr nap? Perhaps the 45 min nap is causing too much OT?
side note: This morning we did have an EW, but not nearly as early as usual, so a little improvement :)
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Hmm you could try to scale back the middle A time and see if that creates a longer PM nap. Maybe stick with 2 hr 45/3 hr to see.
Or you could try a 50 min AM nap...
It's so trial and error and hard to judge on a day to day basis. Sometimes you need to give it a week before he will adjust and you will see if it's working or not.
How was today?
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I see what you mean Wendy....I'm sure it will take some time before things click into place.
Oddly enough, today was the first day in 3 or 4 months that we didn't get an EW. And he only had 1h45min of nap time yesterday - unbelievable.
Today we had a first A of 3h20 and I decided to wake around 55 min to change things up. 2nd A time was 3h20 also and we got a 1h5min nap that *almost* seemed UT, go figure. The past 2 nights he has gone to bed like a dream, which also never happens. Things just seem odd - the minute I think I have a clue, the tables turn :P
I'll try again tomorrow and perhaps we'll get a long nap - thanks for your support in this; will stay posted ;)
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Do you think he would go down if you dropped that morning A back a titch? Like even 3 hr and do the 1 hr nap and then a longer nap after a longer A time? It's another way to try it.
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hi there again ladies - still sorting things out and thought I'd probe you for some more insight :)
The past few days I've been trying some different A times, and seems we still can't get past that 1 hr PM nap. Yesterday we had a first A of 3.25 (woke him at 55 min) and second A of 3 hrs, giving us a 1h5min nap. Today was a bit of a mess - tried a higher A and still the same result.
What I'm struggling to determine is if these naps are OT or UT - often he wakes crying and seeming tired in his eyes, but then perks right up and maintains a good mood. He really has no sleepy cues at all, other than eye rubbing on and off all day. Can I ask how your LOs act when waking OT or UT at this age?
I may try for the 3hr first A tomorrow - often I have a hard time getting him to nap earlier than this, but I'll give it a go and see if anything changes. If this pattern persists, maybe I can get away with a 1 hr first nap and 1 hr second nap? Though I'm sure EWs will stick around...
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How did it go? I found that Finn had a big leap in A time at that age and really he could handle a lot more than I thought. So a nap of 1 hr or less would have been UT for us. He typically wakes out of sorts, it takes him time to get acclimated. He's a bear if woken by us. We tend to leave him a bit before rushing in as better for everyone. But that's only 1 kid :-) What is your gut telling you? What temperament is he?
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Hi Wendy,
Today was our first successful day :) I was able to get him down at 3 hrs off the bat, 1 hr AM nap, then 3.25 second A and a 1h25min nap. The last A was 3.5, so I'm hoping for a good night ahead. Looks like he was OT with those 1 hr naps...
I believe I remember reading somewhere that you transitioned Finn kind of early to 1 nap - can I ask what age he was? Was it a rocky road for you? I have those temptations to just do it, but know that it is much too early and would be a disaster. But still tempting yk :)
Will let you know how the hopefully not-so-early morning goes ;)
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Hi Carrie, well that's pretty good. Maybe he was OT - hmmm. It's so hard to tell with some kids really! I think you should stick with that for a while and see if the EW persist.
Yes we had to rush Finn to 1 nap for his start to daycare by 12 mths of age. He started daycare 3 days after his birthday.
At 9.5 mths he started refusing his PM nap. He didn't shorten it or give notice, just refused to take it for several days.
That sent us into a bad OT spiral and I started getting desperate.
At 10 mths I posted on the board and got some great advice:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=163140.0
By 11 mths we were doing a 20 min AM nap at around 3.5 hrs after waking and then a full 2 hr+ nap at around 2 hr 30/3 hr post short nap. Then he started prolonging going down for the 20 min nap so we ended up just dropping it and pushing him to 1 nap at 11:30/12 noon. It wasn't without issue but he responded very well to 1 nap and after about a week his body clock was set and he would knock out 2-3 hr nap no problem. It took him some time to grow into his A times but being at daycare and highly stimulated helped that.
I can't say I regret the push because it really helped our routine to be honest. The predictability became lovely and it really helped with his transition to daycare. But he does average on the lower side of sleep, always has and likely always will because he's just not developmentally ready to do a longer night. 10.75 hours is a long night for us now. He gets OT easily when his sleep totals drop and when LO is on 1 nap only, it's hard to clean up OT - the best you can do is offer early bedtime for a kid that won't do 2 naps anymore. So you have to really weigh it out - need vs. want as far as the transition goes.
How was his night and wake up?
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Wendy, thanks for that thread - I was just about to ask you for it :) I can see how you made the jump to 1 nap work...right now, I'm tipping a little towards want vs. need for that lovely 1 nap routine.
This PM nap is starting to drive me batty. After our nearly perfect nap day, we had a pretty rough NW and EW but I'm chalking it up to something else - it seemed something was bugging him. Then yesterday, did the same A times and got a 1 hr UT PM nap. Today did the same As and got a 40 min PM nap, which is notoriously UT here (had to let off some steam after that one). So I wonder, would it be worth it to extend the 2nd A again? or shorten the AM nap to 45 again?
Some day....we will have something predictable other than EWs :P
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Yikes. What a brutal night we had - NWs every 45 min or so all night long, yuck. Definitely he was OT at bedtime, but I didn't expect this.
I'm really afraid to keep the same As for fear that we will have a repeat of yesterday. I've been reading your thread and it appears to me that the key is to get the 2nd A time right. If that 40 min nap yesterday was UT, I presume some A time extension is in order, but maybe the first A instead of the 2nd?
Right now our 1st A is 3 hrs, 2nd A was 3.25. He is not fighting the 2nd nap for now, so I'm guessing we should still stick with AM nap of 1 hr?
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Hmm OT NW don't usually manifest like that for most LO - I say most because anything is possible. That sounds like discomfort, teeth perhaps? Tummy ache? Anything else going on?
The 2nd A time is key for getting that nice long PM nap. For sure. But the first A time also comes into play because it also determines whether they can handle a longer A after a shorter nap or if they have used their stamina up in the first A and still need a shorter A after the short nap. Does that make sense? I feel like I am talking crazy lol
Just because he's not fighting the PM nap doesn't mean he's not ready for a cut. It can manifest in so many other ways when they are ready but the PM nap refusal is just the most obvious sign.
Honestly, I think you need to make a plan of attack and do it for at least 5 days without changing anything at all. Ride out whatever NW etc. to see if he evens out. If not then you make an adjustment. If you adjust too quickly you may undo any progress you are making with his body clock.
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I see what you mean about the As all affecting each nap. I suppose this is where the tweaking madness really kicks in ::)
You were right about those NWs - he woke the next day with an awfully runny nose so we are now in recovery mode, juicing him up with vitamin C and all that good stuff.
Can I ask what other signs would indicate a nap cut? Wondering what I should be looking for to know if we need a shift or not...
When you say we are aiming to adjust his body clock, are you suggesting that his body needs to adapt to certain A times, or specific set times for naps? ie - wake every day at the same time, nap around the same time, and to bed at the same time. He doesn't ever seem to have a consistent wakeup time (mostly due to those EWs), which makes it hard to be consistent from day to day yk?
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hmm...well I think I have my answer re: nap cuts. DS seems to be refusing PM nap again, so I guess that's my cue :P
The fun never ends...
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Sometimes it's an EW or shorter nap that means they need a nap cut. Doing less hours at night, taking longer to go down, or only sleeping one sleep cycle. Refusal is like a red flag that 'hey, I'm too rested so you better do something'. As long as their sleep totals in the 24 hour period are in the average for their age and they are happy and seem well-rested it really doesn't matter how you serve up the sleep. It's nice to have a good balance between day and night sleep with long nights and long naps, but not every kid will play that game. So you have to find their sweet spot and work it.
Body clock is like when you get tired at a certain time, thus when you travel time zones you may have a hard time adjusting until your body clock is in line with the current times there. It is affected by lots of things, circadian rhythm, exposure to light and dark, melatonin and hormone levels, and just pure habit. If you get him going down for his naps at the same time for about a week, you may find that he will stick with that for a while. Once he's settled down into it, then you may be able to adjust within 15 mins or half hour. With Finn he doesn't have that adjustment flexibility - he just likes his nap to be a certain time every day period. Any adjustment and we get wonky short naps or he just seems 'off' for the day, or we get NW or some fun EW. So we stick to what he knows and it serves us well. But your LO may be happy with A time tweaks to get to where you need to be.
If he's sick though, his nap refusal can also be from discomfort or OT rather than UT or too much sleep. It just means you have to follow him more until you know he's better.
It's so nice to see you contributing on NW, I just wanted to say thanks for paying it forward and helping out all the peeps on here, you are doing a great job!
RE: the inconsistency, we moved to set nap set bedtime for that reason. It was too hard to manage anything else. Plus with his daycare schedule we really had no choice. But he was 12 mths when finally on 1 nap and it did take him a while to grow into those A times. They are quite long when you think about it, entertaining a kid for 5 hours or more before sleeps means you really need a game plan :-)
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This all makes complete sense to me re: body clock and those tips on signs for nap cuts are really clarifying to me.
However I feel like I am reaching around in the dark for his A times still. I think I have managed to set his body clock for the 1st A time, as he is going down around 3 hrs A time with little to no issue. It's the 2nd and 3rd that are driving me bananas. I really don't know if I should push or decrease - I try so so hard to study him and determine if UT or OT, but it's difficult to tell. For example, today he woke from nap #2 after 1h10min sleep - seemed generally happy for quite some time, then started losing it after 2.5 hrs A time. OT or UT? It is all a mystery?!
Here was our day today:
Awake @ 6:50 (only 10-10.5 hrs sleep)
1st A = 3 hrs (nap 9:50-10:45; shaved 5 min off today to see but he actually woke himself at 55 min, in a great mood)
2nd A = 3 h20; put him down at 3 hr and took 20 min to settle (nap 2:05-3:15 - didn't really seem OT upon waking)
3rd A = tried to get him to sleep by 6:45 - he fought BT for 30 min; really upset so not to sleep until 7:05)
I have this sense that he either needs more A time somewhere, or a nap cut as he has always been on the higher side of A times and is nearly 10.5 months old. Yet I am unsure what to do as I believe he is OT from the short nights and shorter naps. He seems over the sickness and my gut tells me that's not the issue. Is anything here sticking out to you?
In the words you so honestly stated way back when: Urrgh, argggh, pfffft and meh. This is right about how I am feeling ATM, boo.
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ugh....I'm just about to throw the towel in.
Today...
EW @ 5:40, feed and back down until 7:10 (11-11.5 hrs sleep)
E -8:10
A - 3h15
S - 10:25 (45-50 min nap; woke himself in a good mood)
E - 1:10
A - Here we are....put him down just before 3 hrs A time and he has been playing/fussing/refusing the nap for the past 45 minutes. Am I missing something here? I thought after a 45 min nap that he should have around 3 hrs A time? Didn't seem a lick sleepy....but he doesn't really give cues much these days.
By now I'm sure he is mega OT....hopefully we can get another nap in somehow. Thanks for hanging here with me....what a discouraging time this is.
I will be the happiest kid on the block when naps are no more.
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The issue could be that he needs more A time in the middle because his first A is shorter, you can try 3.5 before the 45 min nap, I would wake him at 45 mins and no later, even less if you know what his sleep cycles are. You want 1 sleep cycle only. You may end up at the 30 min nap sooner if he wants to play hardball :-)
Then he may make it to 3 hrs only after that OR he may need 3.25 OR possibly 3.5 if he's high on A times. What was his nap then today? It sounds a bit UT really.
The other thing that can interfere is that EW and going back down for more sleep, they can sometimes treat that as a nap rather than their extension of night sleep...which means he was really rested. If he has a longer night you may need to give him more A time in the AM.
Sorry it's so tough on you guys :-( I have had my share of tough nap shenanigans over the last 16 mths, but really once on 1 nap it does get so much better. Don't wish away napping altogether hehe :-)
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Hi Carrie,
Sorry you're still in the midst of a EWs :( I tend to be a couple steps behind Finn in terms of what to look out for next.
I actually don't think I ever got those 1.5 x 2 naps between 6.5 months - 12 months. I'm sure I had a few, but my memory is a bit hazy.
I have to say, I never did the short AM, PM nap..just bc I could -never- figure out my daughter's second A time. As the months went on, it just kept getting longer and her naps went from 1 hour...to 50..to 45..to even 38 sometimes. She would wake up crying (this was around 7-8 months) and sometimes I managed to get her back, sometimes she was like 'no thank you'. She's really precise with her sleep needs. If she gets more during the day, she does less at night and vice versa.
I kept her first A time pretty consistent, Carrie, for practically 4 months. I was always hovering around 3-3.5 hours of sleep and it always yielded me a nap of less than 1.5 hours. I think I can count the number of times she gave me 1.5 hours.
She was pretty happy to go down for her first nap. With her, and most babies, they get stuck in this rut of habits. Since babies are creatures of habits, they really do love the routine of their morning. Mine LOVES going to sleep in the morning. Goodness, I can't take her out in the car bc she'll just konk out in the car on the way home.
My lo was going through teething, for some time and this probably resulted in the low A times. As the weeks went on, her A time in the afternoon was getting high. It was a hit and miss but towards the 11 -11.5 month mark she would start to just sing in her crib and not go to sleep for, sometimes, 15-20 minutes.
So at 10.5 months...I can't remember but I was doing 3-3.5 hours for the first A, second A was nearly 4 hours and this gave me a 45 minute nap and then 3.5 hours to bed..which she could handle. Then by 11.5 months, things were not working and she was giving me crazy EWs that were just so unlike her. I realized the last nap was interfering with her sleep ...but..that's for another day ;)
I wish I had advice. However, it does take a week or two for some los to adapt. I -think- he's UT, carrie. I've always suspected that...but not sure how to proceed. Have you tried 4 hours of A time ?
*hugs*
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Thank you Wendy and Sarah for these suggestions. Really appreciate the confirmation on UT signs. I have been so caught up in seeing what everyone else is doing, trying to make my LO adapt to the 'norm' when really I think you are right - he needs more A time.
Today we are treading somewhat carefully, as he only ended up with one 45 min nap yesterday; nap 2 was a complete bust and had a few NWs and EW last night. However, I will say that today he managed a first A time of 3.5, woke himself after 45 min quite happy. Put him down around 3 hrs today, aiming to have him sleep around 3.25. He has been playing for 30 min so far so hmm....maybe this kid is playing hardball.
Ahh - that must have been an emotional moment for me to wish naps completely away, silly me..
I will say that I feel like with each reply you send, I am becoming more educated and confident that we can get this rough patch. Hard to not let it consume you when all you do is manage sleep all day ::)
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I tend to be a couple steps behind Finn in terms of what to look out for next.
That makes 2 of us Sarah lol
If he's taking too long to go down and he's just happy in his crib than I would say UT...when I got the A times right he was out in a few minutes. I ended up cutting back our nap wind down and everything by the 2-1 because he didn't need as much IYSWIM, he was tired, knew it was nap time and out he went. I practically just threw him in the crib after lunch. If you read my thread you will see that Stacy had to hit me up the side of the head with 'he's not going to transition how you want him to!' and that was the truth. I wanted it to all run tickety boo and smooth but alas it was a mad scramble for the middle A time, just as it always had been with Finn. And once that was sorted, it did work well for both of us. So it's just getting there really :-)
As for being all consuming, it's all I think about still lol Don't know if that will ever change ;-) But it's gotten easier to manage if that's any help.
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How's it going, Carrie?
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Hello lovely ladies,
ISWYM about getting the middle A right....though today....perhaps a little progress maybe?
EW @ 5:00 - feed and back to sleep
Awake @ 7:30
1st A = 3.5; nap 45 min, woke him
2nd A = 3.5 - the good news is I put him down at 3.25 and he didn't fight it one lick. I thought for sure this was the magic #, but he gave me a 1 hr nap - seemed UT as he was in a great mood the rest of the day.
A little battle at BT, but down by 7:30.
So if you were in my shoes, would you consider cutting the AM nap to 30, or increasing the 2nd A? OR just leaving it for a few days??
TY - I probably will be 80 years old one day and still calculating A times in my mind, lol.
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45 minutes is a complete sleep cycle which may leave him rested enough for a 3.5 hour A time. You -could- try 4 hours OR cut that first nap.
Ah. I couldn't handle that "what if" she didn't go down before her second nap.
Glad you had a bit of progress today hun.
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Hallelujah, hallelujah - the stars have finally aligned :)
We managed a long PM nap for the first time in a several weeks - I forgot what a long nap felt like!
Check out the day:
Awake @ 6:50 (after a rough night of NWs)
E -
A - 3.5
S - 10:20-11:05 (45 min nap)
E -
A - 3h40min
S - 2:45-4:30 (1h45min nap)
E -
A - 3.5
S - 8:00
Obviously our day was pretty long due to those long As, so my guess here is that we cut the AM nap to 30? Any ideas what that 2nd A could be, or what we might shoot for after 30 min nap?
I am afraid to rock the boat with a nap cut - today was just too much bliss :D
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hi sweetie,
So so pleased for you and your great nap! I hope you managed to enjoy the time to yourself!
If the first nap is capped at 30 minutes, I would think a decrease to 3 hours or less. Depends on your lo and finding the magic A time. I would imagine something between 2 hours and 30 to 3 hours. Again, I'm a bit inexperienced...but I always pushed my lo and preferred a possibility of OT than UT.
I hope you have a NW-less night :)
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Hi there Empowered Mama
just thought id put my 2 bob in if its ok, on a 30 min nap my lo did 3 hours exactly, would put her down around 2 hour 55 give or take 5 min more than 3 hours but would try to avoid putting her down after 3 hours as she would take much longer to fall asleep.
im now on 20 min AM nap, its ridiculious, being such long days need to preserve the last A time for bed. So just so you know on 20 min AM nap im on 2 hours 30 min
i also found that dropping to 30 min nap she was much better when i woke her, i think because at 45 min they are in a deep sleep again where 30 min on light sleep.
kirsten
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How's it going Carrie? Agree with the girls. Some LOs can do 3-3.5 after a 30 min nap but at his age I would drop that back and err on the side of caution.
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hi ladies,
DS has me a bit stumped today - here was our EASY yesterday starting with a 30 min nap:
EW @ 5:20, feed and back to sleep
Awake @ 6:45
A = 3.5
S - 10:15-10:45 (30 min)
A = 3.25 - didn't seem at all tired, so I pushed him a little...
S - 2:00 - 3:15 (1h15min nap - seemed UT *I think*)
A = 3.75 (MIL was here ::))
BT = 7:00
I thought for sure we would have an OT EW as always, but he actually woke quite happy and ready for the day at 6:00 (11 hrs sleep which is typical). He hasn't woken happy since 4/5 months old.....this was strange since he had that long last A and only 1.75 hrs naps yesterday. Very odd. The only logical thing I can think of is that maybe his first A time needs to be pushed a bit since too short of an A can cause EW. IDK - anything pop out to you? Maybe just a fluke?
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I do have a question for all of you - if your LO wakes happy in the morning and you leave them in the crib for say 15-30 min, when do you typically start the first awake time? I left DS for 15 min until he started fussing, then I think that threw us off today and our naps are all over the place. Haven't really dealt with him ever waking happy, so this is new territory...
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wow your boy is a stumper. He sounds like he's really low on the sleep needs, hey?
It could be a fluke but we wouldn't know until there's a bit of consistency. What did you do tonight?
With A time, I leave my dd for 20-30 minutes, but I count her A time the moment she starts babbling. Whenever their eyes open is when to start their A time.
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hi ladies,
We are still tweaking over here ::)
Been playing around with that 2nd A time....yesterday we tried 3hrs after a 30 min nap and he gave me another seemingly UT nap of 1h15min. So hmmm...
What has been your experience of these length naps? Typically UT or OT for you? Would you think if he woke fairly happy and in a good mood, that this was UT?
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We never got many 1 hr 15 naps...mainly 1 hr 20 which was OT for us, he woke crying. Once we were on a short AM/long PM anything less than a 2 hr PM nap was OT for us. After a good nap now he wakes chirpy and happy and looks at his books in his crib or just chatters. Anything waking crying is either discomfort or OT. I know that doesn't help :-(
What are the nights like these days? Is he still waking or giving you more solid nights? He may actually need more A time in the middle A. Some kids are like that. I'm thinking maybe even up to 3.75 hrs. Or you could try the 20 min AM? Feeling brave? ;-)
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for us it was always UT. always. However, I've only gotten a couple of 1.5 hours here. Increase in A would probably do it!
Congratulations ms. mod!
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Thanks ladies - great to be on the team! Now my mind can wander elsewhere instead of calculating ceaseless A times ;)
So...my word, this guy never ceases to elude me. Still trying to get that long nap:
EW @ 5:20 - feed and back to sleep
Awake @ 7:35
1st A = 3.5; nap for 30 min
2nd A = 3h10min; nap for 1h20 - definitely a little OT, I could tell he was still tired upon waking, kind of cranky.
What's with this guy? Yesterday 3hrs gave us an UT nap, today 3h10 is OT. I guess the only thing left to try is 3h5. Really??
I will add though that we were at the pool today getting lots of exercise, so perhaps that wore him down more quickly.
Wendy, his nights aren't bad really but every morning gets us an EW (OT 99% of the time). No more early NWs for the most part and typically ends up with 11-12 hrs night sleep when all is said and done. Have entertained the thought of that 20 min nap, but not too sure if I'm ready to jump off that cliff yet, lol.
Ah, well....that 1-nap routine is right around the corner; though I'm sure it will have kinks of it's own (but don't burst my hopeful bubble) ;-)
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Hi Carrie,
Yes..swimming is a big tire out activity. I used to take her swimming before her second nap in hopes she would get tired so she'd nap ;)
Okay, this may sound weird. I've been wondering about his EW at 5ish. Is he waking bc he's hungry? Do you think it's more of a habit now?
When did he go to bed last night? I'm just wondering if we should try starting the day when he wakes...get him two naps..and then maybe a decent bed time and hope he wakes at a decent time the next day?
Just thoughts, really...:)
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I welcome your thoughts always :) Even if we don't get this guy to sleep, the ongoing dialogue keeps me sane ;)
So here is my theory about this EW business....what I believe is happening is that DS isn't getting enough day sleep which almost always causes for a bedtime battle from OT. BT takes forever, then we get the EW from the previous OT day. The good ole OT/UT loop. Which is why I'm trying to hard to get this nap business sorted. There really may be a chance that he is waking hungry, especially after months of feeding at the EW it may be a habit now. However in those few instances where he did reach an adequate amount of day sleep, we didn't get the EW. Soo....
Today's EW was at 4:30 :-\ And I just can't fathom starting the day then when I know I could get another hour or two out of him yk? I'm also not sure how we would then get the day pushed out to a reasonable hour?
Here was our fun day yesterday:
EW - 4:30
Awake @ 7:30
1st A = 3.5; 30 min nap
2nd A = 3 hrs; 1 hr UT nap (!)
So today....I'm not going to take him swimming, going to push that 2nd A by 15 minutes and see what happens.
Also wanted to get your take on SA - I noticed when I put him down for nap #1 yesterday he was fine, then I left the room and he had a meltdown. Had 3 NWs last night and each time I was able to make my presence known and he went right back to sleep (which is kind of unusual). Have any of you experienced this before?
Thank you for your thoughts ladies - really appreciate you in this time!
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Two random thoughts...well not so random but not answering what you are asking above:
1) The short PM nap is a problem, I think you may need to think about cutting back the AM nap even more - the A time seems a bit elusive for this guy so maybe with the 20 min nap it will become clearer. Or let him do a longer AM i.e. 45 mins and keep his short middle nap. He needs more day sleep but served up in the right way for him.
2) I know what you are saying about EW, believe me I know, but I think you need to have a cut off time where you start the day and don't put him back down. I would say about 10-10.5 hours night sleep is going to be enough to get you through a day and start to get on track. The putting him back down is throwing things off, I'm pretty certain of it. Not 100% certain but it threw things for us when Finn was on 2 naps. We did the bottle back to sleep trick at the EW and it was nice and all, but then we never got out of the loop and on to a consistent routine.
SA, not sure. SA is always pronounced for us when he's in discomfort or his routine has been thrown off somehow. Meltdowns like that at naptime are typically UT for us. Like 'hey I'm not ready to sleep yet lady!' If he's getting a longer night by going back to sleep in the morning, then he may not be ready for that first nap. The NW are anyone's guess...
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I hear you on this Wendy - I need some sort of plan of action here...we are getting nowhere with the PM nap. Just put DS down around 3h10 A and he has been playing for 20 minutes already, argh.
So I have no problem shortening that first nap if things clarify a bit. Should I shoot for a 2nd A time of 3 hrs? 2h45?
Don't know that doing the 45 min AM/short PM would solve anything, as he would refuse the nap unless 2nd A time was around 3h40 (which made our day far too long and EWs persist).
About these EWs....I think I can drag myself out of bed if he hits the 10-10.5 mark. Is it okay to do this even though he still seems tired and wants to go back to sleep? I will be honest and say I'm a bit nervous about him getting OT.
But really....I will try anything to get us out of this most frustrating hole - anything!
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Wow....just got a 55 min nap #2 - definitely OT seeming. Don't even know what to do with the rest of the day, ugh.
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It's because he's going down UT and playing himself into OTland. I don't know what to suggest. I do know that at 10 mths we had to cut back to 20 min AM and he was on that for about 1.5 mths until I had to move him to 1 nap. You could do the 20 min AM and long PM and it might stabilize him for the next 6 mths! Some kids are like that.
I always hesitate to say cut the nap at 10 mths because it's really just the start of this journey, but I really think that because he's getting that extension of his night sleep, he needs a bit less day sleep than the norm. It's really hard to push the day with an EW but even after your tweaking of late he's not showing signs of waking any later so I think I would start toughen a bit and not put him back down if he woke at 5:30 or beyond.
Then you might try:
Awake 5:30
Nap 9 - 9:20
Nap 12 - 2 (second A time after a 20 min nap is between 2 hr 30 - max 3 hrs - start at 2 hr 30 at his age)
Bedtime asleep by 6 latest
The other thought I had was to let him have 45 mins AM and then he can handle a longer middle A time, so you could push him out and maybe he would do a 1.5 hr nap if he has a much longer A time??
So:
Awake 5:30
Nap 9 - 9:45
Nap 1:30 - 3 (maybe he can even do 4 hrs A time here???)
Bedtime asleep by 6:30
I agree that OT is nerve-wracking, and there is always a danger of that when making a routine change. But so is tweaking until your head explodes :-) So sometimes you have to get a bit radical to really make some progress.
Sorry about your afternoon and your bad nap day! These loops are really hard to get out of but it can be done :-)
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carrie..what wendy suggested was what I did at 6.5 months..hence the wondering about the EW :) she was really using the morning nap as her extension sleep ..
it's so frustrating isn't it...all these tweaks are enough to drive a mommy insane.
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I see very much what you both are saying here.
I will give it a go tomorrow and really hope he can make it to at least 10 hrs night sleep. The past few days he has been waking at 8-9 hrs (4:30 or so). I imagine that if this occurs again, that I would treat this as a NW and not feed? And hope he gets another hour or so before up for the day?
Feeling hopeful about this!
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Goodness :( I only attempted this when she did a 10 hour plus night. 8-9 hours is a bit too short..probably a good idea to treat it as a NW. I hope he gives you a long night today.
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hi ladies,
Well, I chickened out on the 20 minute AM nap :P and went for option #2 since we had success with that last week. Still struggling though - Here is our day so far:
EW @ 4:10 - left him to mantra for 10 min and went back down.
Up @ 5:45, had about 10.5 hrs sleep
1st A = 3h40 - tried to have him down by 3.5, but took 20 min to settle; almost seemed UT (nap 45 min)
2nd A = 3h40 - he was just exhausting me; fussy, crying every time I left the room, seemed tired so went for the nap. Yielded a 1 hr nap and honestly having a hard time telling if OT or UT. Woke pretty upset, so maybe OT?
IDK....feeling a little defeated here (and not much Y time these days!) Do you think I need to bite the bullet and go for the 20 min AM nap? The only other thing I can think of is that upon waking in the morning, I feed him for about 20-25min in the dark so perhaps he is counting that as sleep time? Perhaps I need to make sure he is wide awake before feeding?
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Hi Carrie,
When he woke at 5:45, did you start your day from here?
What I think may have happened is if he went down UT for his first nap, then the 3 hour and 40 minute A time following a UT nap was just too much for him. That second nap could've been OT...he's not teething anymore, right? Z wakes up at an hour sometimes during her nap ...it could also be UT ..tired enough to sleep for 1 hour but would up bc he wasn't tired enough to enter a deep phase..
Not sure about feeding in the dark..but I usually let my dd play in her crib for 20 minutes or so and then feed her 20 minutes later after a diaper change etc. I doubt he would confuse it as sleep..?
Just my hunch..as Z did this quite often. I could never figure her out too well...the second nap was just a hit and miss over here. :(
Not being very helpful...
I hope he yields a good night for you.
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Hi there Carrie, really not sure. If you go to 20 min and it stuffs up, it could mean some OT. I guess you have to be at peace with the OT should that happen :-)
The morning bit, well I would say that it's more like a NW so he's probably using it as night sleep.
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hi again Wendy and Sarah,
Thank you for hanging in with us. I think I've been enlightened - a few light bulbs have clicked and I'm noticing some things:
Today I went for the 20 min AM nap just to see. Believe it or not, Asher woke at 6 this morning - about 11 hrs sleep w/no NWs. But I was discouraged from yesterday so I fed and he (we) fell asleep for another half hour. All in all, 11.5 hrs. First A of 3.5, 20 min nap. Second A of 2h40 (once he settled in) got us a 1.5 nap (but still was tired).
So my theory is that if we would have capped the night sleep at 11 hrs, he may have made that extra 30 min up on nap #2 giving us a 2 hr PM nap (either that, or the 2nd A time needs a tweak).
Tomorrow I'm going to test it out - hopefully we get another 11 hr night tonight. I'm in super scientist mode!
Will stay posted ;)
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It sounds really promising! Hang in there, you will get through this 2-1 :-)
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hi again ladies,
Still a bit stuck here :-\ Can I get your take on a few things?
Haven't had much luck yet getting that 11 hr night w/o an EW. I've been going back and forth with the 20 min and 45 min AM nap - with the 20 min nap I can't get that long PM nap. But when I do the 45 min nap, I am able to get a 1.5 PM nap. Yet even with the successful naps, we are still getting EWs. For example, this was yesterday:
EW @ 4:45, feed and back down
Awake @ 6:15
1st A = 3.5; nap 45 min
2nd A = 3.75; nap 1.5
3rd A = 3h20; BT at 7:00
This morning we had an EW at 4:30, fussed for 5 min and back to sleep. Then back up at 5:00 when I fed and he went back down for another 1.5 hrs.
I thought for certain that with those decent naps we would escape the EW, but not so. It all seems to be pointing back to the EW, like you said. It's as if he is actually starting his day at 4 or 5, getting lots of 'naps', and going to bed at 7 which makes for a really long day. Does that make sense to you?
If this is the case, I cannot wrap my mind around how to get out of this loop other than start our day at 4 or 5 AM (which is when the EW has been the past 4-5 days). He certainly is OT when he wakes, so I don't know if he would make it with his usual A times being so tired. And this would also mean that his BT would be between 4 and 5, no?
Is there anything I'm missing here? Another way out? A magic pill that will make things right? :P These darn EWs are wearing DH and I thin...
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Carrie can't recall if you have tried W2S? I think we really really need to get rid of that morning feed back down trick. He may even be waking habitually now?
Where are we on teeth, refresh my memory?
Sorry - it's not a fun period. I tore my hair out as did Sarah IIRC. We all make it through, I promise :-)
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Ah, well it's promising to know that it really won't last forever. Some days I think it will!
We are good on teeth - nothing new that I can tell. TBH, I forgot all about that W2S trick. I tried it once or twice way back when and haven't given it much thought. Should I try it around 4 or so? And do I wake him fully?
Would it be worth a shot to do some form of PU/PD at the EW? I've thought about this too, but think it might take eons for him to get back to sleep.
It really is hard to say if he wakes habitually or not - the EW times are never consistently on the dot and occasionally the feed doesn't always work, by which I then pop in in the swing and he goes off (and he is about to burst out of it). Perhaps we need to 'teach' him to go back on his own?
I really appreciate the encouragement - yes, it will get better with time! (trying to convince myself :P)
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still reading along. I'm just wondering if he's EW due to habit or if he's really done sleeping. I wish he was EW closer to 6am so we could get a decent start to do the day and push the As.
Could you try to start the day at 5? And maybe push him until 4?
What was his bedtime after his 1.5 nap the other day?
Have you done a long A before bed time (I'm sure you have...)?
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Sarah, I'm pretty certain that he needs more sleep beyond those EWs because he wakes crying pretty hard - seeming really tired still. I am willing to try to start at 5, but how will I get his day pushed back out again?
Yesterday we put him to bed at 7 with a last A of 3h20 and he went out pretty easily (which is a rarity). I have tried longer As before bed and still the EW.
How did you ladies manage to get out of the EW loop? Just an early start to the day?
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First I would try W2S, do it for like 3 days at around 4/4:30 - yes totally make sure he is roused out of deep sleep. Just enough to have him turn over or something.
Then if that doesn't work, I think you need to try the tough route of not feeding him and just telling him that the day doesn't start until x time. For us that was usually around 6 a.m. Anything before that, we would just leave him in the crib, he was typically content there. But my son is an enigma. Your boy is crying when he wakes, and he's waking earlier, so yes either shush/pat or PU/PD to go back to sleep and help to teach him how to do it. Perhaps some GW to let him know 'hey I'm here but we aren't starting the day yet, might as well go back to sleep'. This may mean you laying on his floor just repeating the key phrase and/or patting him through the crib.
In retrospect, I should have sucked it up and did GW or even WI/WO a lot sooner and just told him to go back to sleep. But I was really greedy with my own sleep, and didn't want to deal with it, even though I never really slept from an EW onwards *rolls eyes*
EDIT: Carrie, I just realized that may have come out wrong, I just meant that I prolonged our EW longer than possibly needed because I didn't put him back to sleep AND I didn't do any sleep training. So we sat in limbo a long time just praying that he might start sleeping later one day...he didn't - so we had to work at it one way or another :-*
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ack. I meant to say push him until 9..not 4.
I've never tried W2S but so many moms have had great success with it.
I let my daughter stay in her crib since about 6 and half months and she knows that she can play around in her crib and go to sleep as I won't be getting her right away. And then..I just usually push her to x time.
So sorry Carrie that you're still in this rut...:(
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hi ladies,
Just wanted to pop in and say that we are still working some things out. Had some pretty rough nap days the past few, but are still trying W2S and have had a little success with shh/pat at the EWs.
Thanks for your fabulous pointers and tips - we'll get there eventually :)
Will stay posted...
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Hang in there, glad to hear that you are working things out with Asher. He'll get there :-)
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ok girls, I may need your perspective again - we are still stuck :-\
Have been trying W2S, but he has been beating me to it the past few days. Here was our EASY yesterday:
EW @ 4:00
Woke @ 5:15, was up and down until 6 when we got up (had 10.5 hrs sleep)
1st A = 3.5; nap 45 min (woke him)
2nd A = 3h40; nap 1.5
3rd A = 3.75 (tried for 3.5 but he took 15 extra min to settle)
- Our day was just over 13 hrs long
EW @ 4:00, shh/pat him back down in 5 min
EW @ 5:00, did shh/pat for nearly 45 min. I could tell he was trying to go to sleep - he would be quiet for a few minutes, I would think he was out, and then up and crying again. I could see this was going nowhere so I fed around 5:45; he was still trying to fall asleep and kept crying so I popped him in the swing where he was asleep for 15 min or so.
Up at 6:20 (had 10ish hrs sleep)
He is clearly tired - rubbing eyes, yawning, fussy. What I am unclear about is how long I should do shh/pat or whatever method at the EW. Do I just do it until say 6 when we start our day? Even if he never falls asleep? I have no problem continuing sleep training if I am convicted that this will solve the issue. Wendy, how again did you fix your EW problem?
Is there anything about our routine that looks off? I have been sticking to the 45 min AM nap because it's the only one that has guaranteed me a long PM nap so far. I am still torn as to whether the EW is routine or habit, or perhaps both.
Sorry for the long post....just a little confused, and a wee bit tired.
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ugh....a 30 min OT first nap. I really don't know what my options are anymore.
Would it be worth it to throw this kid on 1 nap? Or would that just make things worse....
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Let me apologize for all the posts I've written! Seems that typing is keeping my spirits up today.
Been reading away about EWs and am quite convinced that Asher is OT all the way. His day is too long, and his last A is too long. What I've been doing for weeks now is trying to push his day out, I think in the wrong way. I stretch the last A to get us to 7PM because I've feared him waking even earlier if I do an earlier BT. But I think this is perpetuating these EWs and I'm pretty certain his feeding in the AM is just a means to help him relax enough to doze back off and it's not really a hunger/habit as much.
What I cannot figure out is how to get his day pushed out since we are in 2-1 transition. So for example, today he woke at 5 which means he should be in bed by 5/5:30. It seems that others are able to push the day out by increasing that 1st A, but since we are doing a short AM nap, can I even do that? Will I just need to stick to a super early BT/wake until he is finally on 1 nap?
Does this make any sense? I hope it's not just rambles here...
Appreciate any thoughts you may have - things are just not getting better yk?
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Hi Carrie!
Oh sweetie sorry about the long days and the awful EWs:( It's terrible isn't it..
Carrie, I know you say he's OT...but how is that he can manage a 3 hour and 40 min A time from a 45 minute nap...but not a 3.75 A time after 1.5 hour nap? It just doesn't add up...
I'm not sure he's quite ready for 1 nap just yet but I do understand your yearning to do it.
Don't apologize for posting. We're here for you. I just wish I could figure out what's going on.
Did he have any NW last night?
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Thank you Sarah - if it weren't for my BW friends, I would be so alone!
What you say makes a good point....but what about the day's length? Wouldn't a 13ish hr day be cause for OT maybe?
He had a brief NW around 11 last night but resettled quickly. He just seems so tired in the morning - crying and eye rubbing - that I can't imagine him being UT.
Maybe I could try a 30 or 20 min AM nap again and try for the long PM which would make our day shorter (though still unsure as to how to push the day out). Do you have a guess as to what an estimate 2nd A time would be after those times?
I keep going back and forth between, "I can fix this" to "just let it go" - wish I could live in the tension of both, but it is just maddening!
Thanks for being there with me :-*
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I do agree he's OT though. My lo would do EWs..but would do a happy EW. He wakes up crying and you have to feed him right? Wendy used to give water in the morning with Finn when he was EW. Does he do bottles? I'm wondering if you could wean that feed as I'm suspecting that it's more of a habit than anything else.
I think he's accumulating OT through the day. I think it's right from the beginning of the day...just bc 1.5 hours of sleep with a 3.75 A time is very reasonable. He's 11 months..I think he should be able to handle 4 hours soon, if not already.
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How'd it go today, EM?
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TY Sarah....
Well today - had an EW at 5, tried to settle with ssh/pat and going nowhere so I fed and back to sleep until 6:45. Maybe it is a habit? But I do know that he is definitely OT - this kid is the king of OT I do believe.
1st A = shaved off 5 min to start, so 3h25 - nap 45 min
2nd A = tried to take off 10 min, so 3.5 - woke after 1h5min; seemed UT
I can't really get that long PM nap without a minimum of 3.75 A time it seems. I am considering cutting the AM nap again, but unsure about the 2nd A.
He doesn't really do bottles - I BF him at the EW. I could try diluting a bottle, but I have big doubts that he would go back to sleep afterward, since it seems that BF really helps relax him enough to go back down, YKWIM?
IDK - really unsure what route to take right now??
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Hi there, I think at 11 mths you would need to think about not feeding him back down. I know it works, and he's getting more sleep that way, but it's not helping him with the independent sleeping part of training and that's really what you need him to be doing when he's waking still tired. He needs to go back to sleep on his own. So yeah, it means shush/pat or some form of GW to let him know that 'hey, if you are still tired go back to sleep LO' and it means doing it until it's time to get up, yes. Shush/pat isn't going to work if he knows that you will only do it so long and then BF him. He will wait until the BF. It may mean some rough days at first, but it will help to teach him to go back to sleep if he hasn't had enough. At the very least, he needs to be able to manage himself in the morning until you get up.
In the above post you mention that he's comforted by the BF and needs it to go back down, therefore it's a prop. He's not truly hungry, he doesn't need that feed for sustenance.
What we did at the EW which was a really bad habit was to give him a small bottle of milk in his crib. We didn't even stick around. Just handed it to him and left. He would drink it and go back on his own. It helped to take us out of the equation a little bit, but it was still a prop and a bad habit for his teeth. We didn't do it long because we knew it was not the way forward.
If you are still getting a short PM nap even on a high A time then I would suggest cutting back the AM nap to 20 or 30 mins. The middle A is then around 2 hr 30 - 3 hrs, possibly more if he's a real high A time kid.
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Okay, I am starting to understand this a little better. I guess I was under the impression that if they had an EW due to OT, then it was pointless to try to get them back down because sleep training would not work if OT (not sure where I picked that up).
So if he wakes say 10 hrs after bed, then I do shh/pat until when? For an hour? More?
Is there a link somewhere about GW? I'm not entirely sure how I would go about it if I BF.
I do trust you both...just trying to wrap my head around things yk?
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I guess I was under the impression that if they had an EW due to OT, then it was pointless to try to get them back down because sleep training would not work if OT (not sure where I picked that up).
I think I heard that too and may have passed that info on. I think Tracy Hogg discouraged the use of PUPD when they EW. However, it's been so long since I've read this information I would have to double check that.
I don't know what to suggest for the EW :( Shush pat could work...it didn't work for my lo as it would stimulate her more and she would just go in and out of sleep until she was up for good (when she was very young).
Are you looking for this? http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0
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I don't know where I heard it Sarah....but I think I might try it for a week or so, just to see. Tough stuff, but at least I will have peace knowing I tried.
If you were in my shoes, at what point in the morning would you stop WI/WO and start the day? (assuming he doesn't ever go to sleep) Maybe 6:00?
And thanks for the link - it was exactly what I was looking for :)
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for me, when she was EW and would wake at 5something..I would start the day at 6am..and "start" her A time at this time as well. Then I stretched her to 8:45, 9 am...back when she was 6 and half - 7 months.
You sound so sad..you okay? It'll be okay..really. *hugs* A lot of babies go through this 2-1 silliness and it seems to even out when they start going on 1 nap consistently.
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Hi there Carrie, it's not something that is easy to do, that's for sure, so wait until you are comfortable with it. Remember this is a short time in his life so if you have to continue this prop until you feel ready, it's ok, really it is :-)
We didn't have a prop like feeding at the EW, we did a bottle for a very short time, but in the beginning we just ignored his waking and did nothing - lay in bed thinking 'why why why!'. In hindsight, I wish I had tried GW to see if it would have helped him learn to go back to sleep, or even shush/pat. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't but as you say, at least you know you tried.
I am sure Asher is tired at the EW, as is Finn. Now we just have 1 nap and a reasonable length night (10 hours most nights!), but I am always on the look out for some tweak or something that's going to get him sleeping longer at night.
Your LO has slept longer before, and I believe he will again. It's a blip right now, a hurdle to get over, a crazy transitional period as Sarah mentions. It's about figuring out his day/night sleep balance.
It might be worth a post on the Toddler board at this point, I know your LO is young but he's 11 mths so close really and he's in the 2-1. A lot on there have done GW and some broken the feed back to sleep bit. It's a new set of eyes on the issue, routine and new perspectives will be offered.
Not abandoning you hon, just recommending that you post for some support as you go through this. We never did GW so I am not sure what to expect or how long it may take realistically. I don't think WI/WO is recommended when breaking this kind of prop. But if you do a new post you will get some feedback.
(((hugs)))
I honestly cannot remember exactly what Tracy wrote about EW but I do know that she always advises not to become a prop.
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No I hear you, and I was considering posting on Toddlers sleep to get some more perspective.
Life is like a rollercoaster right now - one day I'll be fine with the chaos, the next it seems PPD is on the rise and I'm about to go nuts with this vicious cycle. I do hear that things get better after 2-1, but I don't see this EW problem going away on its own.
I see each issue causing the next - EW causes nap issues, which cause BT battles, which cause EW....which makes for a chronically OT fussy baby and one tired mama. Every day is the same in this regard and here I thought it would get easier the older they get.
Sigh. I really do appreciate your support and help through this. If anything, I have gained plenty of knowledge that I can pass on to the next mom in my shoes.
TY both - you've been so great and helpful.