BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: *Jo* on August 03, 2010, 02:37:29 am
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ok, so we seem to have gotten over all the sickness stuff etc but now we are having short naps, nights are ok for now, hes sleeping 12-12.5 hours at night, yet his naps are skewiff!
yesterday he was up at 6.30am and nap was at 12.20pm, he woke at 1.10pm in a screaming fit (i have a post about this, asking if its night terrors etc) so i thought he must be OT, so today he was up at 6.10am (12 hour night) and I was out this morning, told DH to put him down at 11.30am, he said that he cried quietly until he fell asleep at 11.50!!!! this never happens!! so anyway, hes woken up 12.20, half an hour later! we left him to grizzle, then he started getting worked up so i went in to pat him to sleep, he lay there letting me pat him and I could see his hand playing with the blanket so I thought "you are not going to sleep with me doing this so im leaving" so i left and he starts crying..... HARD. now we are doing WI/WO...he is absolutely distraught, he sounds like hes demon posessed, he keeps choking and nearly vomitting, this has been going on for 45mins now. hes STTN so whats going on? theres just no way he can survive on 30mins of sleep for a whole day and we cant drive him to sleep for a nap later as we dont have enough petrol!
what am I doing wrong??
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i remember reading your posts about you having to pat him lot recently,i wonder if he is just going into a different sleep cycle in his nap and stirring and instead of just carrying on sleeping he is wanting/needing you to pat him back to sleep?
in which case i think WIWO is the best thing to do.He does know how to sleep independently so he will get back there he is just putting up a fight!!! id keep with the slightly earlier nap tho just to keep OT away for now .
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Yeah I did wonder that too, hes just never been this hysterical and hes fine at nighttime. also the past few days that weve been putting him down for a nap he will cry for about 15-30seconds but go right to sleep and wake at around 50mins to 1 hour 20mins, today he went down a bit earlier and DH said he just cried quietly for 20mins which is really unlike him.
My heart was just breaking for him today though cos he had a friend here all day and he had to have his "fun" day ruined with 45mins of screaming and when he came out he just sat in my lap for ages before resuming play with the friend
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Jo it does sound like you need a bit of retraining here. He has to get back on the horse.
Also if he's having that kind of long night he may not have the sleep drive for a nap at all - he could be tired but just not tired enough to settle himself for a nap. At his age I wouldn't expect more than 13 hours in total. Which doesn't leave him with much time for a nap. Have you thought about cutting back his night a tad? Say 11.5 hrs to start?
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Hey Jo!!! I'm jealous about STTN :P 12-12.5 night sleep!!! WOW... perhaps due to the good night sleep, he needs a bit more A time before nap? He's perhaps a little UT to nap longer than 30 mins. Do you think it's likely?
good luck!! xx
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Wendy - if I start cutting his nght back then we will end up with a 5.30am start, I'm trying to get back to a 7am start :) yet I can't seem to push bedtime any further cos of these stupid naps! Now it's starting to affect his nighttimes as it's 1am as I write this and he's crying off and on :(
I am wondering if he's UT for the nap and then OT afterwards, 30 mins is OT for him though. I don't know, seems we've had so much "all over the place" in the last two months that we just don't know how to get it all back, and the fact he turned 18 months right in the middle of it all didn't help. Most people are dropping to one nap at this age, I'm nearly losing it altogether!!
So What do I do? I did a 6 hour A time and had him waking up at 50mins, I don't think I should push it any further than that though, what do u think?
Oh here he goes again, it's gonna be a long night.....
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Koe2moe - no need to be jealous now, he was up at 5am, a 10.5 hour night :(
I went in there and thought i smelled a pooey nappy so i changed it and that was all she wrote, there was no pooey nappy (mustve just passed wind) so I put him back to bed and he was hysterical, screaming till im sure he was blue in teh face, again sounding like he was posessed! so i took him to our bed, which we never do, but he was calm and kinda fell asleep for about 10mins at around 6am, which he never does, to him our bed is a plaything and hes never settled in our bed. So for hte next 1.5 hours I drifted in and out of sleep as he quietly lay next to me, i dont think he slept, sometimes i could hear him playing wiht his hands but he didnt move around alot, when he did I would keep saying to him "go to sleep Caleb" but he never did. so do I count that as lowkey A time? we eventually got out of bed at 6.50am I have no idea what to do with the day now
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ok im lost, i dont know what else to do, Ive just put him to bed for a nap now at 10.30am, obviously I left it too late as he is screaming his head off in his room now, literally he is hysterical.... Its breaking my heart, i go in to put him down, as he is standing up, and he grabs around my neck and clings on for dear life! and as I leave the room he is screaming with vengence!
I gave him pain meds at 9.50am just in case it was teething.... how do i deal with this?
Ive done WI/WO for about 25mins now, i went in and started patting him just to calm him down, hes absolutely exhausted, as soon as I left the screaming started back up again. I dont know what to do. I need some help please!!! Do i stick it out? it sounds like someone is stabbing him with a hot poker iron, hes intensely hysterical, but i cant keep patting him either, he knows how to get to sleep, what is going on here???
If i leave him he gets worse, if i talk to him through the door or go in to put him back down he gets worse, but I cant leave him this hysterical, that would be CIO!!! I feel like theres nothing else to do except patting and thats what we are trying to get rid of! unless he really isnt relying on the patting but is just in a bit of an OT loop, then if so, how do i fix that???
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Jo it sounds a bit behavioural. If he's not in pain from teeth or ill and he's just OT then he has to get himself to sleep. As you say he knows how to sleep, he's not a baby anymore really, he's a toddler who knows that if he gets himself entirely worked up that mommy will come back and pat him. I think you have to leave him to have his upset time, just do what you are doing through the door - he knows you are there and that it's time for sleep, and try to stay calm, I know it's hard. If he knows you are this upset it will fuel what he's trying to achieve. It's not CIO sweetie at this age, with an independent sleeper, it's just a bit of retraining and it's not easy :-( We have gone through it quite a bit in the last month and the more it happens, the more I realize it really isn't CIO. They have to put some of what we taught them to use and allow for self-soothing or we will undo all the hard work we put in in the beginning.
Hugs Jo, it sounds like you have had a really rough time lately with teething and his illness. He's just a bit lost at the moment and needs you to stay strong and to show him the way :-)
What routine are you guys on at the moment?
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routine??? haha thats a laugh!! lol
sorry, I got your post 5 mins too late, after 55mins of constant brutal screaming I went in and patted him, took 2 mins, he was exhausted! hes been up since 5am and its now 11.30!
Wendy, honestly it felt like CIO, it just didnt feel good at all. theres no way he should be screaming that hard for that long, his throat mustve been killing him, he was so worked up I dont think he couldve brought himself back down and the longer it took, the more OT he was getting. he wasnt going down a notch at all, there was no sign of him calming or settling, i think he was so hysterical he was at the point of no return.
so anyway, we were doing an A time of 5.5 hours, that was producing a 1.5 hour nap before the illness, after the illness it was producing a 1 hour 20min nap, then a 1 hour 15min, then 55mins, then 50mins, so we cut it down by 15mins and he cried himself to sleep for 20mins, usually he just goes to sleep fine then woke up at 40mins and 30mins. Of course I was ok with the short naps if the nights werent affected but lo and behold they always eventually do, so last night i gave him pain meds at 1am and he woke up screaming at 5am for the day.
He does have three Canines working their way through, two of them cut already, but like I said I gave nurofen well before the nap and he hasnt been acting in any pain during the day. I did ssee tired signs at 10am, but i figured that was too early, eventually he started getting a little unbearable around 10.15am so i think this was my fault for not seeing what he was telling me, he was blinking hard which i *think* is his sign for sleep. he wouldnt let me put the sleep sack on, wouldnt let me read him a story or cuddle him so he was already in OT by the time i put him into bed, roll forward 1 hour later of constant demonic sounding screaming, Im patting him to sleep. even when I was patting him he would have little bouts of whimpering.
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35mins later he woke up crying... Its now 1pm, hes been screaming for 55mins again, ive basically been doing WI/WO since 10.30am with a 30min break in between, thats over 2 hours of screaming in total, and we are going through lunchtime now so I will have to stop WI/WO soon to feed him, which means I feel like Ive actually just wasted all this time for nothing.
Im exausted and fed up, I just want to cry! He is once again absolutely hysterical. If i go in and put him down, hes back up to standing before I even leave the side of the cot. I feel really mad at him too, as well as sorry for him. part of me wants to just skip lunch and keep going to show him im not backing down and the other part of me wants to get him up and feed him....
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ok i know im posting alot but I HAVE TO, im going insane if i dont write this as I go through it. I got him up at 1.05pm, gave him lunch, hed been screaming for an hour at that point. then at 2.30pm he started getting majorly grumpy and tantrumish so I went to take him to his room for wind down, he threw a fit, threw the book in my hands and started clawing at my chest. I put him into his cot and left, boy did he scream!!!! hes in there screaming now. I dont know whether to stay out of there completely or what??
I recorded him crying, i know its sounds obsessive but I dont know if this is too much of a cry to have had going for now yet another hour!!!!
DSCF0079.AVI
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Big hugs, has he calmed down?
For us, if I go in it makes things much worse. I tell DD (who is 17months) that I'm coming back in 10mins and if she is still crying I don't go in I stand at her door and tell her to go to sleep.
Like Wendy said I think a lot of it is behavioural, it sounds like Caleb has gotten used to you APing him and wants you to be with him when he sleeps. If he isn't teething or sick you might need to get a little tough and take the control back. Just my opinion as that is what we had to do and it was hard work but things are much better.
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I stood at the door and said it was time for sleep, i went away for about 5 mins or so and came back, at one point i left him about 8 or 9 mins and it was just the same as if I hadve gone in. the weird thing though?? when i went in after an hour (because it was then dinner time and i had to get him) he hadnt been crying, there was no tears on his face, his eyes werent wet at all, which meant all that noise was just screaming. boy it sounded like crying.
He did it again when i put him down for bed (at 5pm!) screamed for about 3 mins, i thought "oh my gosh, here we go" and I waited but he just stopped after 3-4 mins. Because he had been up since 5am there was no way i couldve made bedtime any earlier really, so he ended up doing a 12 hour day on 35mins sleep, and i bet it felt like more due to all the three hours worth of screaming energy he used.
the only reason I quit with WI/WO today was because I had to stop in order to feed him or get him ready for bed etc.
when i did stand at the door and tell him to go to sleep he was screaming so hard he couldnt hear me anyway :( i feel so disheartened, WI/WO was never this hard before
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We had similar issues with naps (1x45min nap all day for weeks) and I found that I was so inconsistent with everything as we had such early starts that I had to make a plan and stick to it come hell or highwater. In the end I decided to get to a set nap time so went for 6A in the am to try and push the morning out and a shorter PM. I also decided that I didn't want to pat DD anymore as it was making things worse (she wouldn't settle anymore). The first few days were hard work, lots of crying but I kept popping back to reassure her. Some days it took 45mins-hour for her to settle although once she hit 6A she started settling for naps much easier and then we tackled bedtime.
Good luck, hope things settle for you soon. You guys deserve a break!
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im so sorry you are having to go thru this.i know that crying sounds so bad to you cos you are his mummy and it hurts you to hear him but tbh that really didnt sound too bad to me.He wasnt sounding hysterical,he just doesnt want to do it by himself.
i know it must be so hard but i really think you will have to just stick with it till he passes thru this and then hopefully things will settle down again and his naps will start to lengthen.im sure the short naps are cos he is so OT and also has got used to you patting him.
stick with WIWO,and tie you hands behind your back to stop yourself patting him!!!! Gentle (((((((((hugs)))))) Jo.its hard to hear your baby cry when you know you could just stop it with a pat xxxxx Be strong!
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Jo that cry is exactly what Finn does, as it escalates and wanes, escalates and wanes, it's not I need you it's I WANT YOU IN HERE NOW or WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING??? It's so so hard when we are so affected by their cries, I get the adrenaline rush and the hair standing on the back of my neck when Finn cries, but honestly he does not need you in there. He is just really really tired, his body is full of cortisol and it's so much easier if you just stay in there and assist him with sleep. He needs to re-learn how to do it on his own.
What about if you put some ear plugs in to mute the sound? Or if you don't have ear plugs put on your iPhone with headphones on a very low volume with your own soothing music. You will still hear him, as we do, but the effect won't be as bad. It will be like Caleb-lite. And therefore it won't get YOU as upset which will help you to do some sleep training with more confidence. If you are really upset and getting angry etc. then Caleb can tell and he won't back down, as JC says above, consistency.
Hugs my friend, it's so hard when they just fall off the wagon like this. It's not supposed to be this way is it???
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Hugs to you Jo :( it is very hard to do this. Just some thoughts...it seems that he is OT and he's definitely making up for it at night (which in my case my dd hardly ever does unless she is slowly catching up) and because he is having such a long night then he has almost reached his total sleep for 24 hours. My dd started doing 12.5 hrs total no matter what! So if she was doing less I knew she was getting OT. So let's say he's waking at 5am, then do nap at around 9:30/10 (yes it may sound crazy, but hear me out lol)..he'll probably only nap for 30 mins. if he had a 12 hour night (he'll probably be really grouchy in the afternoon but snack him, take him for a walk, etc.) and put him to bed by 6pm. I know that sounds like a loong pm A time and it is, but hopefully with the short am A it gets him a bit rested to get through a long day and he'll probably do an 11.5 hrs night because he'll be slightly OT for bedtime, but then he'll make it up the next day for his nap (hopefully with 1 hour nap), long pm again till bedtime 6:30 the next day. This worked with my dd because she was having these crazy short naps and EWs around that time, and it was because she was requiring less sleep in 24 hrs. Once I caught her up for 3 days though with longer naps (1.5 hrs max. is all she did), then the EWs continued, then it was time to push her morning A to 5.25/5.5. I sort of went from starting at 4.5 hrs. during and after 2-1 transition at 13 months to 5 hrs. around 18 months, then back to 4.5 hrs. to get her caught up like what your lo is doing now, to back to 5.25 around 21 (yeah it took me a while to figure it out..pff!) HTH :)
Regarding the WIWO, for my dd it would enrage her more for me to go in and comfort her so I modified it to that I had to close the door, count to 30 if cry was consistent, open the door if she continued and say "shhh..shhh...sleepy time" (that has always been our cue). It lasted for 30 mins. the first time I figured it out to just stay by the door (gruesome!) and then another time I had to do it for naps and just stayed by the door, it took 10 mins. and I haven't had to do it ever since. Right now she is going through separation anxiety so she cries when I lay her down, but I leave cheerfully and tell her the cue and leave. She wimpers on and off for a min. or two but then nods off. Something to consider as well that he may be going through SA.
Whew! sorry so long, but I just wanted to share my experience.
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Thanks ladies, I put him to bed at 5pm and he slept through without waking till 5.50am!!! So nearly 13 hours!!!
I can't do a short A time today as we are going to playgroup and I have to go as I help out there and we won't be leaving till 11.30am, he will fall asleep in the car so I don't have to worry about getting him to sleep.
That cry he does is just awful, I swear it sounds worse than that
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ok here we are at the nap situation, after a 5.50am wakeup, we went to playgroup, he fell asleep in the car at 11.45am, i transferred him from the car to the cot at 11.55am and hes been screaming ever since! usually the transfer is flawless, he stayed asleep on me, i put him in the cot and he just lost it as I closed the door....
So a 10 minute nap??? this is ridiculous
am now doing "talk outside the door every couple of minutes" because there is no "calming down" period where i think he might settle, otherwise I would be constantly trying to settle him
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Oh my goodness, i feel so bad. I went and re read the WI/WO guidelines and saw this : When he cries, count to 5/10/15 seconds (timing dependent on your child and his cues), walk in, lay him down and comfort him briefly and walk out again regardless of whether or not he is still crying. Repeat as necessary. If he stops crying during your count, do not go into the room. If he starts crying again, start your count over again.
He had been screaming for 45mins at this stage with me talking to him through the door or going in to lay him down every couple of minutes. I changed my tactic to the above, waiting only to the highest count of 15 seconds, then i would go in, put him down and say the phrase and leave. I only had to do it 3 times and then he stopped. If i hadnt have read that he would still be screaming right now. what he needed was for me to keep coming in, in short bursts of time, not leaving him as long as I had been.
I feel like crying, what a waste of our time, what a lot of horrible crying Caleb had to go through, if i hadve read the guidelines earlier instead of just doing it off the top of my memory this couldve all been avoided. its only been about 5 mins but its all silent in there, I think hes gone to sleep. I feel just awful, horribly horribly awful.
Now the other question is that how long do i let him sleep? if he did such a long night last night should i only let him sleep an hour (if he doesnt wake up earlier that is)
I just want to go in there and cuddle him, let him know that Mamma isnt going to leave him again :'(
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Be proud of yourself for re-reading the guidelines, you could have continued with what you were doing for so much longer and not known. <<<<<<<<<<<BIG HUGS>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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oh Jo, big hugs!!! we had to do so much and try to read as much as possible with so little energy left in us. Don't beat yourself up on this one. We are all learning :) :*
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Hi Jo, well I'm here to drop off lots of ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
As you know we are in the SAME boat. SA and teething these horrid canines seem to go hand in hand. :(
Anna is the slowest/most painful teether I've ever known.... so I don't have much advice for you. :( But hang in there, its is not fun times. :(
Sometimes I honestly cry b/c I'm just asking God 'why me'. I know what sound super selfish but seriously it took her 2 1/2 months to get a SINGLE canine in. And we are only on #2 at the moment. There is a 3rd bubbling up at the bottom. But she gets stuck in this serious OT cycle that I CAN'T get her out of when she's teething. She does the same 12-13 hour nights and 30 min naps. She has atrocious behavior during the day and is so exhausted.
Its 1am right now and DH (he's in town right now so that's great) and I are taking turns on her NW'ings. I also have baby LO who just started teething. I was up last night twice with him. DH is currently laying at the foot of Anna's crib as we speak. That is the ONLY way she will go back to sleep right now. And I of course can't do that when he's not here, b/c I can't hear for baby LO in her room.
I know the exhaustion and utter frustration. I told God 'I give up' a few months ago. Its all too much sometimes! I TOTALLY understand that!
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More ((hugs)) Jo. Believe me we have al btdt with things when we were desperate and doing things from memory.
Hope you're ok.
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thanks, i am ok, when he woke up from his nap i got loads of cuddles from him so i felt better (doesnt that sound selfish! lol) but at least i know now that tomorrow if this happens again, which im presuming it will, i know what to do.
Liana - I definately feel for ou with two little ones teething!!! how horrid!! But these canines are just unlike any other teething weve been through (that I can remember anyway)
I was just so confused that how can he sleep through the night with no assistance yet the nap was such an issue. oh well, i feel a bit better now knowing ive found something that works a heck of a lot quicker than what i was doing
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Jo cut yourself some slack hon. You are really doing the best job with Caleb and ensuring that you never leave him to CIO. Even in the worst case WI/WO scenario he knew you were there, that's the point. Also sometimes we do have to tailor these methods to what works with our LO - as part of Tracy's message is to follow LO. So for us to go back in so often would really really rile Finn up. We are better off to leave him to do his thing. It doesn't last nearly as long. If we go in too often, he will cry for upwards of an hour or more. He doesn't back down. So you find what works well with your boy and go with it :-)
Very pleased to hear he had such a good night, cleaning up OT is always the best foot forward so keeping fingers crossed for a great day!
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Yes welcome to the club misery. :( so glad u found something that works
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well perhaps i shouldve held my tongue on the STTN thing, i was up about 12 times last night! starting from around 9.30pm till 11.40pm and then again from 3am to 4.40am! I did WI/WO at the early morning session and thats just how long it took. at one stage I turned the ducted heating on because I was freezing and as soon as I did he fell asleep, the whirring sound of the motor running mustve helped him, but then, 15 mins later just as I was closing my eyes he started back up again :(
then he was up for the day at 5.40am so a 9 hour night in total with the NW's. I just wanted to cry being up for that long throughout the night, I got about 3-4 hours sleep all freaking night!! So i have no idea what to do with today seeing as the night was so ridiculous. Im not going to be home to put him down for a nap, DH will be so its up to him, but i think its gonna be a nap at 10.30am?
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What if you just put him back down as soon as he's tired? With a night like that I think he might need it.
Hugs Jo, it sounds really tough :-( Was he hurting do you think?
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He was already tired and losing it at 8am, it's now 9.30am. I don't know if he was hurting, I gave him nurofen at 10.30 and again at 3am so I figured that wouldve sorted it but I just don't know anymore with him
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Frankly on a day like that I would just put him back down and wing the day the best you can. He's got to be exceedingly tired, as you guys probably are too. You all need a bit of rest.
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Jo,
I know when Anna's really suffering she just runs around in utter exhaustion from being in OTville too long. I give her as MANY opportunities to rest as possible. She will ONLY take one crib nap a day PERIOD. So once I see she's running near adrenaline, I just put her down no matter the A time. THen I attempt a Apop nap later if necessary. And with baby lo this doesn't always happen and we go with a early bt.
For us its a huge cycle until that tooth pops through. Its terrible behavior, exhaustion exc........
Its NOT pretty. :(
I'm exhausted and overwhelmed as she is too. Motrin helps take the edge off but doesn't 'clear' up the behavior, fussing, exhaustion, SA, NW'ings, EW'ings exc........... It can help or lessen but doesn't for sure get rid of it. :(
Like I said before with as slow as she goes with teething, I've stopped asking God to speed it up (because that's NOT happening obviously) and now asking him to just help us survive until its over.
I've been at my wits end soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times!
So HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE (((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))
Hang in there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ok, we ended up with a 30min nap. when i looked in his mouth afterwards its clear there is a third canine pushing through right now, his cheeks are red and his hands are in his mouth. SO, now that weve established there is pain and discomfort, im gonna go back to patting until hes through it, It may sound like foolishness and inconsistancy but I know hes a good sleeper so for him to not respond to three days of Wi/Wo means something else is going on and I need to listen to that.
Liana - I was praying real hard at 3.30am that God would take away any discomfort or pain!! lol but as the natural progession of teeth comes through its clear to me I just have to go through what other Mums go through with teething. You are right, I am asking God to be my strength in all of this.
I actually have a night off tonight, Im going over to a friends house for drinks and a girly night and Im gonna stay the night there, so no NW's for me!!! yahoo!! that thought alone helps me to get through today :)
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Oh im stuffed! I just walked him for 50mins in the stroller hoping he would fall asleep, he cried most of the way, fell asleep near the end for 3 mins, then cried and fell asleep for 2 mins then cried and wouldnt go back to sleep!! he looks absolutely exhausted, his eyes are red and around his eyes its purple. He looks like he hasnt slept in a month! So this tooth and OT are really affecting him and I dont know how to get him out of it, ive tried APOP and its not working. DH tried for an hour this morning to get him back to sleep but had to get him up for lunch. so he had a nap from 10.30-11am. Hes mega hungry all the time, this morning he ate two biscuits, had his big bowl of oats (more than what i can eat) and two peices of toast!!!! Yikes thats alot of food!!! Dh said "i thought hes not supposed to be hungry when teething?" but I dont know...
the big question is how do I get this boy to sleep???????
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Maybe he's also hit a growth spurt? That would make him extra tired as well.
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Now don't shoot me.... he is clearly tired yes, but all your efforts to apop aren't working. I *wonder* if you just put him back on his routine (maybe with a marginally earlier nap and bedtime) and ride with it for a few days to see if he'll then at least start napping more consistently and then he'll get a bit less OT. I worry that otherwise you're gonna end up with 30min nap in the morning and nothing till bed? Just my thoughts though ;)
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How about a nice big bottle/cup of warm milk before nap? I've used that trick a few times when been in desperate need of getting a DS off to sleep xx
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I agree with Laura, I think it is def worth a try. That and meds, meds meds!
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Laura, im gonna do just that, thanks for that! Im gonna make naptime 12pm. he apparantly slept 12 hours, woke twice but put himself back to sleep, up at 5.20am.... but im gonna do a 12 naptime :) heres hoping!!!
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OH MY FREAKING GOODNESS!!! its 12.30 and hes still screaming his head off!!! Ive been doing WI/WO and its still not working! NOTHING WORKS!! its nap refusal every single day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want to SCREAM!
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Ok I really need some help PLEASE!!! In the middle of WI/WO Caleb threw such a tantrum that he smacked his jaw on the cot rail, flinging his head back so i had to stop WI/WO and get him out to check on him because he was hurt. Once I saw everything was ok I just screamed at Caleb, threw him at his father and slammed the door on both of them, then i pounded on the walls and screamed! this is total nap refusal every day, then when he does nap its 30 mins then because hes been up since 5am I have to put him down by 5pm which means hes up at 5am the very latest the next day.
I am NOT coping! It doesnt matter what i do, nothing works anymore, not the patting, not the driving in teh car or walking in the stroller, not WI/WO just NOTHING and I dont know what to do!!!
Is it possible hes giving up teh nap altogether>?? I dont know, I just dont know, Im a mess thats just about to fall off the edge right now. the last time i felt this bad I was pretty close to CIO
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OMG! I'm sooooooo sorry!
Well Caleb, what's up? Wish we could get in these lo's heads!
I know how feel! At your wits end! Anna-Li is cutting a new canine and driving me beyond bonkers. I feel like a terrible mother who can't stand her child ATM!
How is his behavior (other than the refusal of naps)?
What if you tried a full day of naps/bt's based on cues instead of A times? Have you tried that?
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He's happy as Larry apart from the sleep issue, I mean his tolerance for things is lower but he's actually fine while he's up. DH wants to try tired signs etc tomorrow, I just feel perhaps they are unreliable due to OT but he feels we are stretching him too far.
So it's now 4.30pm and he's slept 10mins since 5am :( we ended up driving him round to get him to sleep but he woke up as soon as the car stopped and wouldn't go back to sleep. I feel hopeless that anything is going to work at all! I mean this can't be normal right?
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im sitting here crying my eyes out, its 6.50pm, he went to bed at 6.15pm (due to being out at an appt) cried for a little bit then fell asleep, then woke up at 6.40 and hasnt stopped. No matter what i do i cant get him back to sleep. I get that hes in pain (he was saying "ow, ow" before bedtime and had his fingers in his mouth) I tried patting him because Wi/Wo obviously doesnt work, he just lay there quietly for 10mins, every now and then he would shuffle to make sure im still htere, then i leave and he just starts up again. There is just NO SLEEP happening in this house! Im at my wits end, i feel like im just losing it.
My legs hurt from walking him in the stroller for an hour the other day to try and get him to nap (which he didnt!) my back hurts due to a horrid bed i slept on last night, i cant keep this up!!! Even gradual withdrawal wont work because he gets upset with me just leaving my hand on his back
FFS WHOEVER TOOK MY BOY JUST GIVE HIM BACK!
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FFS WHOEVER TOOK MY BOY JUST GIVE HIM BACK!
No help but this is how a lot of people have felt with canines.
Did he settle? Sorry I wasn't around at your nap time, time difference. ((HUGS))
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Yes He did settle, I sprayed rescue remedy in his mouth to help calm him and then Dh patted him till he fell asleep..
In the car earlier he fell asleep at 4.35 so I made a decision to let him sleep in the car till 5pm with dh in the car with him, then bedtime was 6.15.
I'm so lost with him.
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well its 1.20am and DH has been doing Wi/Wo for the past half hour, that boy is screaming his head off, i think he may burst a blood vessel the way he is going.
This has got to be the worst hes ever been, even when he had reflux when he was little he never was like this.....
we tried patting him but it just didnt work, so DH said no more patting, it doesnt work, nothing does so we have to stick to Wi/Wo, but im so confused, if hes in pain with these canines arent we supposed to help him, if hes OT arent we supposed to do everything we can to get him to sleep???
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im sure he is absolutely OT by now.What about just calling to him from the door instead of goin in or start from scratch with GW? what happens if you just sit in the room with him...but no patting?
Have you given meds? id do bed and naptime meds and a dream med at your bedtime and maybe again early hours if needs be.i had to set my alarm to get up and give meds when we were cutting canines.
Do you think the inconsistency of patting then WIWO then patting etc is making him mad and this is behavioural?
you know him better than we do x
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if hes in pain with these canines arent we supposed to help him, if hes OT arent we supposed to do everything we can to get him to sleep???
But you are Jo, you are. There is some element of it being Caleb's responsibility, you have taught him how to sleep, guided him along this journey and learning to self-soothe, you can't do anything about the teeth coming through except medicate and be aware and at some point his body has to give in and take the sleep. It's a phase, and a crappy one, but you really really are doing everything you can. If patting isn't working, then you need to switch it up. I agree with Lucy, try GW, can you sit beside his crib and just let him know you are there through the bars, it will take you repeating the sleepy phrase in a monotone voice, completely relaxed and soothing - but no touching if you can get away with it, just very rhythmic - use some white noise even. If you start to relax and calm, it will pass to Caleb, honest.
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Hi Jo,
Many, many hugs! We've got all four canines coming through here and it sounds so much like what you're going through. They are definitely the worst teething experience we've had.
I agree with what Lucy and Wendy are saying, and I think a plan and consistency would do you both good. I am notorious for caving in when DD's teething and OT, because I feel like those are reasons for helping her. And in the past, I think they were, but now, honestly, in the long run it never helps. My inconsistency leads to her 'what will happen if. . .' behavior issues and it just spirals on and on.
So, decide what you want to do, GW, calling through the door, WIWO, etc. Then stick to it for a good several days. When I did WIWO at the beginning of canines, I gave both Tylenol (acetaminophen) and Motrin (ibuprofen) an hour before bedtime the first couple days, for DD's sake and my own piece of mind. It took a few days to get back on track, but it was worth it.
We still have little setbacks here and there, and I get all worked up. But, when I remind myself to stay consistent, she always does better. I know it's so frustrating, I've been there so many times. :-* :-*
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Jo,
You are getting GREAT advice here!!!
I'm a perfectionist Mom FOR SURE and this type of chaos does my head in!!!!!!!!!! As you know we've been through it with Anna-Li for LONG periods of time during what I call 'canine hell'.
She's soooooooooooooooooooo touchy/spirited and it makes things very difficult.
One thing I KNOW for sure is these teeth are WAY worse than any other and they cause LOTS of pain. With pain comes SA. I KNOW that to be true with Anna.
Different things work for different Lo's. So I just want to share what's worked for us. That way you can hear different things that have worked for different lo's.
This is our stance with Anna right now.
#1 bt & nap time are (1) non-negotiable PERIOD! She must go to bed and must take a nap every day. I give pain meds as needed and use real vanilla extract (just a little drop rubbed in her gums, instead of orajel. Works as well and is better I've been told) before sleep times.
#2 I give LOTS of hugs/cuddles during non-sleep times. I try to be very gentle and loving.
We've gotten to the point with Anna now that even though she's cutting a new canine she goes right into bed b/c she understands its expected of her. Wi/wo works best for her. GW does NOT work as it infuriates her that we are in there and won't take her out of the crib and let her sleep on us. We are very loving but firm at bt/nap.
How we got back to it was just giving her PLENTY of warnings 10 min's out from nap/bt. We remind her over and over again of what we are about to do. Then we carry through with it. If she puts up a fuss we pop the door open and tell her to lay down its time to go night night. If she keeps it up we just do it again until she goes down. With her doing it too often will prolong the process into a hour or longer. I know you said it works better for you to do it in short increments, whatever works for your lo then do it that way. We handle nw'ings like this: if she just moans or lightly cries (doesn't need us) we just let her be until she goes back to sleep. If she stands up and is screaming bad like she 'NEEDS' us then we go and give pain meds, check her diaper, vanilla on her gums, kiss and back into bed, then walk out. If she screams b/c she needs the reassurance of us being with her then we lay next to the crib till she's out. We no longer hold her while sleeping, pat her down, lay with her in bed exc......... This is just what we've found that works for our lo and our situation (being 2 lo's who are teething and dh is gone sometimes and I might need to attend to 2nd lo so I can't hold her while sleeping all night exc.....).
This is a VERY rough time where they run around completely exhausted (b/c they short nap/refuse nap and are just more tired from teething) and in pain from the teeth. Its not pretty or a happy time at all. :( The behavior is terrible here, tantrums, wanting to be held CONSTANTLY exc...........
It was so overwhelming and exhausting for me the first canine! It was terrible. So I've surrendered myself to the process (stopping praying it speeds up, praying the pain is alleviated, praying she'll sleep through the night tonight exc.......) and just realized it is what it is and will be until the process is over. Then I'll get my sweet girl back again, until then its like dealing with a maniac!!!!!! Hoping or expecting anything else just set me up for complete misery. I now go to sleep early (when we are in this cycle) and prepare myself to be up early or for nw'ings and I prepare myself to deal with bad behavior during the day. It doesn't excuse it but I'm ready mentally to deal with it. When we are in this cycle I no longer wake up hoping for a great day with great naps/bt's and sweet behavior. I prepare myself for a challenging day and if its anything less I'm smiling at the end of the day. That is the ONLY way I can keep my sanity right now.
So during these cycles nap/bt are 100% NON-Negotiable and we enforce it PERIOD! We are gentle and loving but DO NOT CAVE! We can't! If we do she'll expect it EVERY time and I just can't do that with 2 lo's! Its no longer physically possible, I have 2 to care for.
So we check up on her if she's throwing a tantrum about sleeping but we do not get her out of her crib and cave. She must nap/bt. We tell her we love her and all of that but its nap/bt and we will see her in the morning/after nap.
This has worked wonders and she dives in her crib and seeks no assistance from us unless she's in bad pain in the middle of the night and we medicate cuddle then back in bed. (unless its too rough and she needs someone to lay next to her crib until she's out).
Good luck and let us know how he's doing. Poor guy, this is a super rough time for him and you guys!!
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Oh forgot to tell you one more thing......... A times during illness/teething doesn't work for us. We have to go solely on cues. That is the only thing that we can rely on, b/c every day is so very different. :(
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Hey Jo - big hugs to you! You've offered me such good advice in the past that I couldn't just read this thread and not respond. You are a fab mummy and the fact that you are desperately seeking ways to help your boy just proves that. I think we have similar responses to our LOs being upset, and I hope the advice I'm going to give doesn't just confuse you more, as it probably conflicts with what others say. Our DD had a horrendous time with the last tooth she cut. We had some major screaming, major SA, high temp and major sleep disruption. I'm sorry, but I personally really struggle with any type of crying so our approach has always been along the GW route. With the last tooth, we resorted back to patting (and infact even some cuddling and bfing to sleep - shock horrror!) - anything to ensure DD was getting some sleep. Once the tooth came through, we were back to GW and I can honestly say it really didn't set us back too much. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you are really not coping with the crying - do what you have to do, DON'T beat yourself up about it and just be prepared to get back to where you were pre-evil tooth once its all settled down! This is exactly the advice I need to hear when we are having a rough patch, as I always drive myself crazy telling myself we will be back to square 1. We never end up being set back that far - probably because when you are ready to try training again, it's not the first time either you or LO have done it.
I realise some will say that consistency is key - and whilst I do agree with that on the whole, I firmly believe that during illness, we can make allowances. I know I have a very different routine on the rare occasions that I'm ill!
Hope this helps - hang on in there, and let us know how its going. I'm sure things will settle soon xxx
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thanks ladies, again I know you all have such wonderful BTDT advice. Wi/Wo only lasted 35mins last night at the 1am wake up so that was good.
a few questions though,
Liana - I tried the set naptimes etc but what happens if the naps just doesnt happen? so we decided 12 was the set time but it got to 1pm/1.30pm etc and the screaming kept going and he still wasnt sleeping, so how do you enforce naps when realistically hes making it impossible?
Also what happens if you get a shocking 9 hour night like what we did a few weeks ago? would you still enforce the set naptime with possible exhaustion setting in?
I cant do GW, hes spirited and ANY type of communication or my presence gets him worked up. I cant just sit in the room with him, he will scream at me for not patting him if i am anywhere near him.
Last night DH and I decided that we would BOTH get up to him when he wakes in the night, not both of us going in but one of us standing outside the door to support the other parent doing the Wi/Wo. we find that helps keep us calm knowing the other one is beside us.
We cant do any other kind of +APOP as it just doesnt work, he wont sleep in teh same bed as us, he wont be rocked/walked/driven to sleep anymore (if he does fall asleep in the car then he wakes upon the car stopping)
I do medicate but its causing him an upset stomach as Ive been medicating for so long now so i only medicate with paracetamol before naptime and nurofen at bedtime and in the middle of the night with a dreammed.
BTW, im starting an 18 month old sleep regression support thread so if you are going through this too then hop on board!!!
Ok, so he was up at 6am which gives us roughly an 11 hour night with the NW's involved. we are off to church this morning so we cant do a set naptime, he will fall asleep in the car around 9am (which im hoping will help carry him through till 12) then on the way home he should fall asleep too so will see how that goes. I looked in his mouth, that third canine still hasnt cut yet, but boy it looks painful and he keeps saying "Ow" and pointing to his teeth :(
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Jo,
You are a great mother and let me tell you Caleb is going to come out of this. It will just take some patience... NO A LOT of patience. Remember this little guy is in pain. :( And he just needs your love and comfort. I always try to ramp up the loving and cuddles during A time when lo's are teething... they need it.
Your question about enforcing the nap when he just won't do it.... he eventually will! I promise you. It might take a couple days but he WILL start doing it. When he knows mommy says 'nap time' mommy means nap time he'll do it. Just have a few chats with him about it. I know this seems silly at his age (Anna would often act like she wasn't listening exc........) but they do understand and comprehend. Just tell him that every day Caleb gets to take his nap so he can rest up for more play later in the day.. Maybe give the incentive of a favorite snack once we take a nap. Tell him everyone takes naps, his teddy bear needs to take a nap so he can have more energy to play later.... exc........... Just let him know its not negotiable and he's not coming out until he naps. It will be a few rough days but it will get back on track. Now I agree about making allowances during illness/teething.... But people who do not have a spirited child don't understand if you can't apop them there is NO WAY to get these lo's to sleep. Anna also will NOT be rocked down exc... Baby lo is not spirited and I am able to do a bit of GW with him if he needs it, there's no way EVER I can do that with Anna... just different personalities. If you have NO way to apop him and he's getting exhausted then it sounds to me like you have NO other choice but to help him with wi/wo to get him OVER the exhaustion. What I do with Anna is she ALWYAS takes a crib nap, she knows it and dives in her bed after lunch every day.. no matter how she's feeling. But if she's getting really tired and its not near bt, I do a car nap to catch her up a bit until we can make a decent bt. Now during the time I was having to teach her we have a nap/bt and its non-negotiable she did get very OT and we did a lot of early bt's as I couldn't apop as much with a newborn. Now with this canine, she ALWAYS dives right into her bed for nap/bt. And if I have to apop a extra cat nap in the car I do that. But let me tell you this is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than the 1st one (before I set clear boundaries for her). Its a act of love and comfort for them to have boundaries. Its loving and security. Wendy taught me that. (thanks Wendy)
I believe wi/wo is loving and comforting as well. Anna is like Caleb and VERY spirited. ANY form of GW makes her infuriated!! She goes bonkers and works herself into such a frenzy its scary!!! When I do it and DH is home we always go it together!! ALWAYS!! I need that support b/c its so tough. But it is loving. I NEVER EVER allow CIO. I believe caring for them and giving them everything they need while checking up on them is the BEST way that works for Anna. When she's in pain I give motrin and rub vanilla on her gums before bed (motrin 45 min's before so she's relaxed before sleep time). I give numerous warnings of sleep times ( During these rough periods I can't really rely on A times as they are ALL OVER THE PLACE during illness/teething). We CAN'T prevent our kids from ever crying, that's just impossible. But we can be there to reassure them when they need it. They will be sad sometimes and in pain, but we will be there to reassure them that its okay and they are loved exc.........
I enforce my 1 nap and bt rule b/c Anna needs this structure and routine. She NEEDS to know we do the same thing every day, she takes comfort in routine and structure. She's a totally different child now that she KNOWS she goes down for a nap and bt every day REGARDLESS of anything! It ALWAYS happens PERIOD and now she just dives in no matter how OT, or teething exc.........
I established this 'rule' at 18 months b/c we were going through the chaos you are currently in. Part of what makes them so anxious is they don't 'know' beyond a shadow of a doubt what's going to happen and they are experiencing SA from the teething..... its a rough time. We would talk about it a lot, play it out with a baby doll (you could use a teddy bear) and then I just held the fort until she knew the 'rule'. I was always loving and kind during the process of her understanding it. But that doesn't mean I ever caved.... EVER.
We played it out by her putting a diaper on her baby doll, giving her a sippy (pretending to be warm milk) and tucking her in a bed (a shoe box bed I made), telling her night night and covering with a blanket then leaving the doll to go upstairs to do the EXACT routine herself... This seemed to help her once she knew she was doing it next.
DH sits at the bottom of the stairs during wi/wo (or I do, whom ever isn't doing it) for encouragement. Then I walk in and tell her 'its night night time sweetie, mommy see you in the morning, love you' AND I WALK ALL THE WAY DOWN STAIRS as she screams in outrage. By walking down the stairs it helps me to not pop right back in and gives her some time to calm herself. If she's really going after 30 seconds I walk back up the stairs and shorten it to 'lay down its night night, love you'.... go back down stairs again... repeat the process but I always try to give her time to do it herself. After the 3rd visit I only say 'lay down, night night' Then after '5-6th time I only say 'night night'. I always have a VERY sweet and comforting disposition and a smile when I pop in to check on her and remind myself that she's okay and I NEED TO REMAIN CALM to show her that everything really IS okay and there's no reason to fight sleep.
That was 2 1/2 months ago and we are on our 3rd canine now and HAVEN'T had to do a single wi/wo in 2 1/2 months!!!!!!!!!! She now asks for nap time if she's tired and ready before I start her warnings. She also asks for her 'milk' which means she wants to have warm milk and go to bed. This is nice b/c she accepts rest times and can gauge when she needs it before I can sometimes (she just turned 2 and is able to communicate a lot more than 18 months). So she loves it, accepts it and needs it. Its not a bad time, it is good. We always tell her we are tired too and going to nap as well (used to before lo #2 came around). Same with bt.... If its neutral and a good thing... not a bad thing (no reason to feel sorry for them) they pick up on that and take it to heart.
What seemed to really help her is me being OVERLY comforting during A times and gentle but firm with nap/bt's. They need to know its okay to rest when they aren't well. and we are their guide to that. It is scary and hard for them during illness/teething but they really pick up on us. I am NOT emotional at ALL about sleep times, I'm loving and a bit monotone but no longer have the 'poor baby' feeling in my heart. It is simply nap time and time to rest. And that seems to help.
Can you give him some milk (and crackers if its day time) with the medicine to help ease it in his tummy?
Take care of yourself right now Jo! Its important that you don't get too run down,he needs a mommy who's on top of her game right now, b/c he's not. :(
Good thing DH is there with you for some sleep times. You can support eachother. I would get with DH and talk about how you want to handle it. Then communicate with Caleb before nap/bt about what's going to happen. Give him plenty of warnings (to prepare himself mentally for it,, no surprises.. spirited kids hate surprises!) then do what you and DH have decided to do and be consistent so he has the security of knowing what will always happen. It will take him a few times of you being consistent with whatever method you choose to really know what's coming and be able to take security in the consistency.
You are getting some great advice here from everyone.
you will pull through this. Take comfort in the fact you will have your sweet little Caleb back.... Just ask for strength to help you make it as long as it takes.
Take care! :)
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Liana you are a Godsend, thank you so much for sharing all of that with me, it definatley gives me somthing to work with.
Just on a side note, i just did 15mins of Wi/Wo and he stopped crying and started to fall asleep..... then the neighbours starting building!!!!! he woke up!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!
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Grrr. . . to the neighbors! But, great work on the WIWO!! It sounds like he's responding well; keep at it and he'll be back to independent sleep in no time!
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well hes still screaming..... we are still doing wi/wo though
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OMG!!!!!! JO I'm SOOOOOOOOOOO sorry!!! I HATE that. We have a neighbor who's ALWAYS pounding on his house! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
Can you turn on a white noise machine, and maybe a fan as well? Get a couple things humming in his room to wash that noise out.
That's really bad b/c this is not the time when he needs that happening. :( So sorry. grrrrrrrrr.
Glad it helped! Sorry I thought it was a rambling mess... very long! LOL!! I just remember the crying desperate mess I was when I was going through it. I REALLY felt like I was starting to have panic attacks over it all b/c baby LO was a newborn... just days old. And I was so exhausted and COMPLETELY beside myself. I remember it all too well. Even without the baby lo, it would have been HORRID! So I understand!
Katie is right he's going to get back to it in no time!!!
Take heart and ask for strength AND the ability to care for Caleb and love him even when he's a bit impossible. He doesn't mean to be.... He's doing the best he can at the moment, and you are going to help guide him and help him. Your teaching him with wi/wo.
It is very tough on us mommies who have spirited lo's that don't give us any wiggle room to do GW during these times. But your doing a great job caring for him!!!
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Oh looks like we were posting at the same time. So sorry he's back up from the neighbor's noise. :( GRRRRRR
Once he does take that nap when you go to him try to really build him up and tell him how proud of him you are. He did such a great nap, bet he feels better now that he's rested, lets go and do something really fun and have a super yummy snack... exc........
I'd really start to communicate with him about nap/bt's... have some chats about the 'rule' about how EVERYONE (this was one of the keys to helping anna) has to nap once a day (daddy goes into the bedroom like he's going to nap and Jace goes into his crib.... in the beginning, doesn't have to now though) and everyone goes to bed. Everyone in our house does it and its a good thing.
Try to play naps/bt out with a teddybear. Give lots of warnings 10 min's, 5 min's. I do after lunch we will take a nap. Okay its lunch time in about 15 min's we will nap. Okay lets clean up lunch, we will nap in a couple min. Okay all cleaned up, lets change your diaper and go down for a nap. Okay we are changing your diaper we will go upstairs for nap time. Diaper done, lets go put baby doll in her bed for nap. Dolly's resting so lets go upstairs for Anna's nap time. then we head up stairs. It takes her at least 15 min's (if she doesnt ask for the nap) to wrap her mind around going down for the nap.
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I started doing that today, in teh car on the way home i said "when we get home we will take a nap" "oh we are nearly home, almost time for sleep" etc, he fell asleep in the car for 2 mins, i transferred him to his cot and as soon as his head hit the pillow his eyes popped open. That was exactly an hour ago... he is still screaming as I type. he just stands up and I put him down. every now and then he stops for about a minute but then revs up even more than before.
DH wants to take over now that Ive been doing it an hour, but that will just disrupt him wont it?
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ahhhhhhhhhh yes when Anna wasn't accepting her nap/bt the minuet her head would hit the pillow she would go bonkers and pop up screaming in total outrage. grrrrrr. hate that. :(
We don't do the put down part. it makes her soooooooooooooooooooooooooo angry. But if it doesn't rev him up and tick him off royally then I would go ahead and do it.
We just walk in and tell her to lay down, us laying her down makes her sooooooo irate. I don't even step in her room, I just open the door and smile telling her to lay down its nap time, I love her and will see her when she wakes.
TBH I'm not sure if it disrupts it or not. We've had to trade off before when someone has to leave the house for a appointment/ errand or one parent is just too mad/exhausted exc........... I think every lo is different. You can try letting him take over and see how it goes. He does need to know both parents expect the same out of him. But I wouldn't trade back and forth every time someone walks in. Just only when necessary.
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ok, i am losing it with him now, its just gone 1 hour 20mins and hes still going strong. whats the bloody hell is the matter with this kid??!! I think I will let DH take over, when Dh was doing it at 1am it only took 40mins but it is daytime so that makes a difference, but i tell you what, i dont care if i have to go three hours with Wi/Wo this time we are not giving in, he HAS to sleep!
Update: its been 1 hour 40mins, still no sign of him giving up.. Dh just asked me "will it ever stop?" are we going to be doing Wi/Wo till bedtime????
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we are up to 2.5 hours of Wi/Wo........ when do I stop?
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ok we stopped at 2.5 hours. DH said if he wasnt going to sleep at that point hten he wasnt going to sleep, we are going to try again in an hour and if that doesnt work we will drive around for a little bit even if he just gets 15mins sleep, something to carry him trhough till bedtime. I feel like Im going crazy!
Hes still passing ALOT of wind.... maybe its not the pain meds because Ive slacked off on them alot for that very reason... maybe he has a tummy bug?
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still couldnt get another nap into him, so he literally slept 7 mins all day, in teh car! its 4.50pm and ive just put him to bed now, its early I know but Im going on the fact that hes not had a nap in three days....
Tonight i decided to take my time wiht him, ive been reading Raising Your Spirited Child in teh sleep part and it talked about how spiriteds cant destress once they get caught up in it all and its our job to help them be calm before bedtime, so at 4.15pm I took him to his room and we got dressed slowly then i decided to give him a little leg massage which he seemed to really enjoy. I kept talking to him the whole time saying "after your nappy is on we will read a story, then have our bedtime milk" then after that i said "now we will brush your teeth and read another story and after that its cuddles and into bed" which went really well. I cuddled him for quite a bit because I felt that he really needed comfort and everytime I said our key phrase he pulled my neck in tight as if to say "dont you go anywhere" but then i said to him "We really need to sleep, if we dont sleep then we wont have any energy to play! and we love to play dont we?" so then I sang him a song or two and just kept cuddling him, telling him I loved him... i really dragged it out, wanted to make sure he was really relaxed. then i said our key phrase three times instead of just one, i would say "Its time for sleep now sweetheart" then he pulled me in so i said it again and the last time i said "Its time for sleep now, Im going to pop you into your cot and it will be time for you to sleep" So i put him in and as i shut the door he began crying and after about 2 mins he stopped! so its all quiet....
Im going to try this same approach for naptime too, do a long wind down of about half an hour, really help him to be relaxed and calm for bed and hope that helps. Its obvious by todays escapade that Wi/Wo isnt working so I have no idea what to do but keep doing what Im doing and hope for the best.
Liana - just wondering again about your set times, if you were ever refused a nap did you still stick to a 7pm bedtime? I just pondered whether doing that today, he was just so exhausted I didnt think he was gonna make it, he refused lunch and dinner today so i didnt think I could do much else with him really
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Great job on bedtime, Jo! It sounds like the slow approach really helped. ;D I'd do the same for naps. We don't keep a set bedtime if the nap is a bust, like you had today. That just wouldn't work here! I think you did exactly the right thing.
With the nap, I honestly think it was the 7 min in the car that did you in. I think these toddlers get to an age where that little amount of sleep, then disrupted at an inconvenient time, prevents them from going back. I remember going to ILs when DD was about 16.5 mo. We stopped for coffee and didn't realize that she'd been sleeping for a few min. She woke and wouldn't fall back to sleep for 1.5 hours longer in the car; she was so upset! It was terrible! >:(
Next time, you might have to have one of you sit in the back with him to keep him awake til you get home. Then, proceed with your wind-down and nap. I think he'll probably do better with that than trying to transfer him.
Hope the night went well!
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DH said the same thing about the car rides Katie...
However we are now in a dilemma, its 2.45am, he woke up at 2.30am with massive explosive diarrhea, had to change his clothes and nappy etc and boy it stunk, ive never smelt it like that before, ive never seeen him wiht a nappy like that before, his stomach is making the most awful noises so its clear hes got some sort of tummy bug, some sort of gastro perhaps? that would explain the passing of wind. so we cant do Wi/wo when hes like this, hes dreadful upset and his tummy is making awful noises....
cant help but wonder if its the nurofen i keep giving him... however DH is patting him back to sleep now as hes really not well.
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Jo do you guys have paracetamol there? It's easier on the tummy and can help with teeth too.
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OMG Jo!! I'm sooooo sorry!! :( We just got back from being at my parents house after church.
Sounds bad. :( Poor little guy! He's really having a rough time. :(
Sounds as he does in fact have a tummy bug.
Since wi/wo isn't established and you have the ability (no other lo to care for) I would go back to your primary way of putting him down (patting). I never think its right to do new sleep training with any illness going on. In other words I don't 'change up the game' when they are ill. Its not really fair to him as that is the only way he knows how to go down when not well. You can always get a fresh start after he is well.
When on the set nap/bt and the nap was a 'no go', we just did bt when she could no longer tolerate being awake. So we did a couple 5pm bt's. Its okay to do that here and there until you get that nap well established, especially if they are teething and just can't make it. I don't do it ever on a regular basis as it will set their body clocks to that time... the older they get the easier it is (with constant early bt's) to set their clocks to that time if always put down then. Then you get in the early bt/ early waking cycle. :( So I stretch until I know we just need to put her down, and then I do it. I also find as they get older they don't fight nap/bt b/c of OT, they crash out.... baby and toddler sleep are quite different. As they get older things change.
Sounds like your extra communication is working for bt. I would keep that up FOR SURE! Really prepare him mentally and give him time to get himself ready to go down. Spirited kids need more time sometimes than others. Trying to portray it as a good thing sounds like its working too (we need to let our bodies rest so we can get up and play more, everyone has to rest so we feel better and can have more fun exc..........)
KATIE YOU ARE SOOOOOOO RIGHT!! If you or DH can stay in the back seat with him on the way home from church to give him snacks/ play with him to keep him up that's best. Then do wind down and nap time.... other wise he's at the age he'll start to sometimes refuse the transfer.
Sounds like you might need to just stick with the patting and ride it out until he's well. Later then you can asses it with DH and decide if you want him to learn to go to sleep another way. But I wouldn't forge ahead at all with him being ill. Just love and comfort for now.
Sure hope he gets better soon!
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Wendy - yep have paracetamol. will be giving it to him today :)
Liana - the patting still didnt work last night so we gave him a bottle (as he hardly ate yesterday, probably due to his sore tummy) then gave him lots of cuddles, did the whole "its time for sleep, will put you into bed in a minute so you can sleep" thing again and then put him into bed, he cried as I left, i waited, went back in and put him down and said "its time for sleep sweetheart" and he mantra cried himself back to sleep!
then he was up at 6am so with all NW's it was a 12 hour night :)
So this morning he was playing with his teddy and I had this conversation with Teddy:
"Good morning Teddy, did you sleep well? Oh you did? you slept ALL night?! thats fantastic! you must feel so good! and I saw you had a nice long nap yesterday too! I am so proud of you Teddy!! Its so wonderful when you sleep and get more energy, then we can all play together!" Caleb chatted away to him as well for a bit then started playing with him again, so i said "Oh i love how you have so much more energy to play with Caleb Teddy, it must be because you had a wonderful nap yesterday and a long sleep last night, it really do feel so good to have a sleep doesnt it! You are a very good sleeper, I bet you cant wait to take your nap today!"
So who knows how much Caleb took in but he started putting him under the blankets and they pretended to sleep a bit LOL
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so its naptime now and I did heaps of relaxing with him, but the screaming has begun and im back to Wi/Wo again..... Ive given pain relief, ive done all that I can to help him be calm but this boy is refusing to sleep. this has been going on for a week now of no naps.
He didnt fall asleep in teh car this morning but he was seriously tired by naptime
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Great night last night!!! Sounds like Caleb is liking playing it out with teddy. You would be surprised how much they do take in. Sometimes when DH is home before I put her down for her nap we go and tuck Daddy in first. She gets a real kick out of that! LOL!!
He's just having a rough time with this tummy bug and also the teething. :(
With the tummy bug make sure to keep him hydrated. One new trick I learned is to make homemade Popsicles with fresh juice/fruit and freeze them. I always give them to Anna when she's sick and its good vitamin C and hydration.
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looks like we were posting again at the same time.
I'm so sorry he's on a nap strike!!! I remember that. :( soooooooooooooooooooo frustrating. nothing like the sound of a screaming toddler to make you anxious!
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ok, i patted him to sleep... I just figured it was worth a shot, it hasnt worked the past week but he was so tired and hes been ill so I patted him and it worked! I had to pat him for hte entire first 20mins though (just like a newborn!) as he kept jolting, kept opening his tired little eyes to look for me if i stopped. So im gonna go back in in 10 mins and do HTTJ as well.
To be honest even if we do only get a 30min nap thats more of a success than what we have been having! never thought I would see the day taht I would be grateful for a 30min nap out of him!
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What about doing the nap then trying to get a car drive nap in later. Just to catch him up a bit and prevent a super early bt? Would that work?
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I think it could Liana, its worth a shot, I just have to share, hes been asleep 40mins!!!! I didnt even have to go in and do HTTJ! Praise the Lord!!!
I will have to take him to the park for this, I told him if he did sleep we would go to the park and Im so happy with this nap that I will take him for absolute sure!!!!!
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Oh good he's finally getting a rest! 40 min's is better than 0 min's!!!!!!! :) :) :)
I sure hope it works! This is what we do with Anna-Li whenever she's in this cycle. She short naps b/c she's in pain. So we just get a cat nap in later to stretch bt later.
Great! Get him to the park then see if you can get a little cn in.
Here's what I did with Anna today:
6:30 wake (I've finally got this to 7-7:30 on non-teething/ill days)
12:30 nap (only slept for 45 min's woke screaming in pain... and that was with meds)
Ran a few errands around 3:30pm and left baby lo with DH so Anna could have it quite on the way back from the market. I have a CD of scripture lullabies and I put that on when i'm needing a car nap out of her. it worked like a charm and she slept for 30 min's.
7:30 we made it to bed time!! yippie!!!
Now had we not had that car nap she would have not made it past 6pm. So on weekends when DH is able to care for baby lo, I always do a errand or two so she can have the chance to get a cn in before dinner. This helps us keep bt later and not get in that early bt/early wake cycle.
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Liana - again you are a Godsend!!! I did the carnap, he slept for 25mins before I woke him so heres how today went (first time I can actually put something down on paper!!!)
Wake 6.10am
Nap 1 11.10-12 (patted for the first 20mins to help him fall asleep, was already way OT by naptime)
nap 2 3.50-4.15pm (in the car)
Bedtime 6.15pm NO CRYING WHATSOEVER HERE!
He was major cranky pants after both naps, very clingy etc, whereas the days he had no naps he was happy as a lark, go figure!
Ive decided to stick with the massage before bed as he just lays there and lets me do it, this boy does not sit still so for him to lay there in teh same spot for 10mins is a miracle and MUST mean he loves it.
We also had three more major explosive diarrhea's today again so weve only given him dry foods today, toast, boiled rice and plain noodles plus water all day (little bit of juice in some of the drinks too)
I have no idea how tonight will go or how tomorrow will go, to be honest Im thinking while teethign is happening that his A time is dramatically reduced, i tried to get him to the set nap time of 12 today but he was SO tired by 10.30, his eyes were puffy red and he was rubbing them and closing his eyes, like a big blink all the time, laying his head on my shoulder, i just couldnt ignore that so I took him to bed, had trouble of course getting him to sleep but at least he slept! I wont be taking him to playgroup tomorrow as he has had diarrhea so will probably do an A time of 4 hours as that seems to be when he gets tired.
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Ya I wouldn't make him stay up if his cues are telling you he needs a nap. Just shoot for a car cn when he needs it until he recovers. Now I've found with Anna the car cn before the normal nap causes nap refusal most days. :( but all Los are different.
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Well I had a bad feeling this would happen, he's been up 4-5 times and up since 4.10am. Whenever he does two naps he always does a 10hour night. OMG will this EVER end?!?! The constant screaming from Wi/Wo is ridiculous. I've had a whopping headache for two days!!! We are sti doing Wi/Wo now to try and get him back to sleep. I'm so tired :(
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Hmmmmmmmmmm sounds like the two naps are a bad idea then. I guess your best option is to just do the one nap and shoot for as much 'rest' time as possible. Then just try to keep things low key so he can make it as close to bt as possible.
Will he sit down and do any activities? Play in his highchair with stuff? Scribble with crayons? Playdoh, stickers, sort through Tupperware exc...... These activities are how I stretch Anna. Also watching a 30min baby video. I'm not one for allowing much tv but desperate times call for this sometimes.
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I really think he's telling you that he's only going to do 1 nap at this point, regardless of how tired he is. He doesn't have the drive for 2 naps in a day. Agree with Liana, low key all the way if you can. Nothing wrong with TV in this scenario :-)
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He sounds very low sleep needs. In that case I wouldn't really worry about ot unless he's showing really ot cues.
If he weren't low sleep needs or ot I believe he'd be making extra hours up at night. And he clearly isn't. So he doesn't need a ton of sleep. My SIL's kids are like this, all 3 of them.
That's how it sounds to me. So once he is well you have to decide where you want his sleep at and move it there. If you want to push the day back to get a more reasonable wakeup then I'd do it once he's better.
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That's how it sounds to me. So once he is well you have to decide where you want his sleep at and move it there. If you want to push the day back to get a more reasonable wakeup then I'd do it once he's better.
I agree.
DS is the same - won't do 2 naps now. Once he's had a sleep that's it. I think do what yo can while he's unwell then go back to fairly structured times - for your sake too hun. :-*
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Sounds like you're getting some progress. Glad to hear it. Just a thought about the watching TV. I read that it's best not to watch TV (or a computer screen) an hour before you go to bed as it makes your brain think that it's still daytime and not a time to go to sleep. I don't know if the same would apply for a nap as it's still daytime then but just something to think about.
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well it took 30mins but he went back to sleep at 4.40am... for 20mins... then woke up at 5am on the dot! then DH did Wi/Wo again for 12mins and he fell back to sleep, then woke up 15mins later at 5.35am! what does that mean???
Georgeo, i read that too, in RYSC so have put a stop to that for now, its raining today so i cant take him to the park, however since about 8.30am hes been acting like hes already OT, he looks so tired, his eyes are puffy and red rimmed and hes extra cranky... seems to only be like that around me though, not around DH, hes quite happy with DH so maybe im annoying him?? lol. I dont know what time to put him to bed, i certainly cant put him to bed right now at 9.20am as when and IF he sleeps its only for about 45-50mins (yesterdays A time was 5 hours and he slept 50mins)
I think you are right, hes low sleep needs, before this he was doing about 11 hours at night and 1.5 during the day so only 12.5 in total which makes this really hard trying to get him back to a decent waking time and bedtime. i guess i can always do the pushing bedtime further 15mins extra every other day trick and hope that works, its just that if i put him to bed at 5/5.30pm he does 12 hours or so and so therefore doesnt leave alot of room for a day nap but if i put him down any later he still wakes around 5.30/6am and wont nap at all or seems so tired so early... I am really truly completely lost!
I dont know what to do today, i have no idea what time to put him down for a nap, its all a gamble no matter what i do. Do i keep patting him to sleep for his naps? his nighttimes we dont pat, we only do Wi/Wo and it only took about 5 or 10mins to get him back to sleep at night (until the 4am one that took 30mins) if i do Wi/Wo at naps we get complete nap refusal but if i pat theres a risk he will still refuse it and then im still giving him the patting... I jsut dont know anymore!
Do you think he has a cot aversion? someone else here mentioned that earlier and I did wonder, but it doesnt seem to be so bad at night so I dont know? Its just really intense for naps.
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Jo,
I'll be back on later, but wanted to tell you since he's low sleep needs and goes to bed pretty easily but just having trouble at naps, that means not tired enough for some kids.
They are exhausted by bt and just crash out, but at nap they aren't quite tired enough.
Not sure if that's the case for Caleb.
TBH- When Anna gets in the early bt/early wake it means I need to move her back and stop such early bt's. If she' not making up the sleep at night it means she's not really that tired. But that may just be her. Can you try keeping him really low key today and keeping things near the normal time? Is that at all do-able? Seems like if you don't push him he'll in up in the early bt/early wake cycle. Just a thought.
Will be back on later.
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I did wonder that too Liana but i tried a 6 hour A time and he was just wrecked and we had nap refusal that day too. Ive just put him down now and its 10am.... so um please dont hit me but hes fallen asleep with a DUMMY!! :o
While he was playing he found an old one that i hadnt thrown away (gross I know but it was somewhere that isnt used much so i didnt know it was there!) he wouldnt let go of it after that! as i was reading him a story his eyes were closing but he held onto that dummy. hten when i put him down to sleep he still got up and cried (with paci in mouth still) I did Wi/Wo about four times and now hes asleep!
He hasnt had a dummy since he was 5 months old. I sure hope its not gonna create a whole heap of more issues!
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wow.... fantastic, another 50 min nap.... its just about 11am and hes done his nap for the day..... great... just great... we will never make it to bedtime
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Ok, so he cried for about 10mins (seems the dummy didnt stay in after he fell asleep anyway so not a huge worry) and then i went in and Patted him back to sleep, decided it was worth it to get some decent sleep into him, to get him to a semi normal wake up from nap time. I patted for about 5 mins and he was out to it, then i stayed the rest of the time to watch and observe, now i havent done this kind of thing since he was 3/4/5 months old but i thought it would be a good idea to see whats going on with him. well he jolts.... ALOT and big time! i ended up keeping my hand on him for the rest of the nap so i could feel his jolts, a few times they were major jolts that actually caused him to lift his head up and look at me which required that i pat him again for another 30seconds and then back to just having the hand on the back. he jolted majorly every 10mins or so and I just applied pressure on his back and patted if needed.
at the end of it all it totalled a 2 hour nap. I think he needed it, I know I was there the entire time for the last hour but I dont think he wouldve made it to bedtime if i hadnt assisted him..
so what do you think of that?
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Congratulations on a 2 hour nap! He must have needed it and if it were me I would be feeling a lot better after it too, even if I was in the room for half of it :) I might be wrong, but isn't the jolting a sign of OT? Maybe it's happening because he's so OT from having a week with nap refusals and once the OT is gone so will the jolts and nap refusal. What about staying with him for a few days during naps if necessary to get over this OT and then try GW (although I think you might have said that didn't work with your DS) or perhaps since he is well sleep trained he'll be able to go back to having a decent nap without your help once the OT is cleaned up. Tracy does say "sleep begets sleep" so he might be needing more sleep as he catches up.
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WOW a two hour nap! Excellent!!! Now he can make it no problem to bed time! Great!!! He probably really did need it.
So funny about the paci!! I wouldn't worry too much about it. DD hadn't had a paci since two months old. Then after DS was born (she was 18 months) she showed some interest but after a few days lost interest. It is funny though!
Let see how tonight goes. Hopefully it will go good since the great nap!!
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thanks ladies, naptime was over at 12 so what time do you think I should aim for bedtime?
He seems in a really good mood after that nap thank goodness, hes still just clingy, i think, im pretty sure the third canine has cut through the gum, he only gives me little glimpses in there but im sure i saw its through
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I would still aim for no later than 6pm -I'm pleased you managed to get some sleep into him. Fingers crossed this is the start of a bit of respite for you both. :-*
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What's his behavior telling you? How does he look?
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I agree with both Laura and Liana, 6 p.m. at latest and also keep your eye on him, if it looks like he needs to go sooner I would consider it. The idea is to get him back on a routine rather than push the day out yet. He has shown his capacity to make up sleep at night if he hasn't had 2 naps so I think it's worth a shot. He may surprise you and do another 12 or 13 hour night! Hang in there Jo - I feel like we are in a boxing ring and you keep coming back to the corner *rubs your shoulders* lol Sorry it's not funny but if we don't see the humour we all might go crazy together ;-)
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Hello Jo. I've been following your thread for awhile now, cause your DS na dmine are the same age and yours seems quite spirited as well. I was just wondering if you just stuck to the same sched every day for a week, regardless how naps or night went, if things may turn around. I've noticed now at this age with my DS, we just keep everything the same (even if he didn't nap, had an early nap in the car, or woke early from his nap), we rarely deviate from bedtime by more than 1/2hr. Even a few months ago he wouldn't have managed well without a nap all day... or a long stretch before bed... (he would wake 1hr after bedtime and then STTN and often sleep in). But now he just sleeps. I wonder. Even if he got up early... just keep his naptime the same (12? 1?... ours is 1pm) and no matter when he wakes, get him up and go until bedtime. Stick with it for a week and see if all irons out. I know my advice is in stark contrast to the others on here, but it's what works for us now at this age... through travel, teething and crazy days! Hope things get better soon.
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LOL!! Wendy you are right!! It is the boxing ring right now!!!!!!!!!! Anna-Li is cutting canine #2 (takes her on average 2 months per canine... and we are in utter CHAOS!!) and looks like #3 is moving up. (from the VERY brief peek she let me have this morn)
This is survival time Jo!!!!
Just wait your next one will be a angel/textbook like mine 2nd. You'll wonder what all the fuss was about with Caleb. ;) LOL!!!!
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Just wait your next one will be a angel/textbook like mine 2nd
Will I get one of those too then ?!! That's not me announcing anything BTW before you all go getting ideas! LOL!
Hope Caleb sleeps well tonight.
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Hahahahaha sure hope you do! Mine are night and day opposites! Never knew babies could be so easy till #2 came along.
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Liana - I was thinking last night that I hope my next one will be an Angel, it would be a nice rest compared to this lol
well ladies, we watched for tired signs, he was tired by 4pm! but we managed to get him to 5.15 before he really looked like he needed to sleep, so off to bed, asleep at 5.30pm and wokeup at 5.30am!!!! no NW's but he woke with an explosive diarrhea nappy again so he may have slept longer if that hadnt happened.
Alethia - we tried doing the set nap time this week, he was just way too zonked to make it to the time. I had it set for 12 and he was crashing at 10am, managed to get him to 10.30am before he was literally closing his eyes for about 5 seconds each blink. I had to put him to bed, even then he fought it bad and it was 11.10am before he finally fell asleep (had to pat him of course)
Wendy - I do feel like im in a boxing ring! I think you put that perfectly!!!
This regression really does feel like one,its like hes regressed back to newborn again, having to pat him and do HTTJ!
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12 hours though! That's great. I really think you won this round Jo!
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12 hours though! That's great. I really think you won this round Jo!
Ditto!!
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:)
well we had a bit of a success today, Caleb decided he didnt want me, he wanted Daddy to put him down for a nap, so DH did that and of course Caleb cried but he only had to do Wi/Wo twice! then Caleb woke at the 40min mark so i had to go in and pat him back to sleep and keep my hand on his back, he kept jolting hard a few times and one time he looked up at me and I looked straight at him so eye contact was made and naptime was over. that was 1 hour 15min nap so today went like this:
awake 5.30am
Nap: 11-12.15
bedtime will be 6pm?? its 4.30 now and hes pretty tired. I did manage to get him to a 5.5 hour A time today as hed had a 12 hour night i thought he couldve handled it and he seemed to have *just* handled it, any more and I think it couldve been messy.
His third canine has definately cut, we saw it today so thats good but i know hes in a bit of pain, hes been showing classic signs of it. We gave him NO pain meds yesterday or last night and he did fine but I think i will just give panadol tonight with that tooth pushing through