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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: KathG on August 10, 2010, 09:16:58 am
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Hi. I know this is long but its to show you how much I've read to try and help myself but I'm at a dead-end and need help....please?!
Its 11am in South Africa and I WOULD LOVE some help/advice before the night time starts.
My 10.5 monthd old DS has, in the past week, woken up 3 times at 9/10/11pm for a 3 hour play session. He gets about 2.15 hours day naps (not matter how hard I push for longer) and 11 hours night sleep on a good day yet wakes and stays awake for 3 hours in the middle of the night. OT, UT?
I have been on this forum and in desperation, other book’s forums too, reading ALL The info about his EWs and now the new NWs. I have read all about day A times and day naps affecting night sleeps, developmental stuff, props, changes in sleep needs at this age making their sleep habits go wonky etc etc.
I am aware of the 2 to 1 transition and how to change their sleeping habits for them by doing the short morning nap and long lunchtime nap (link: 10 to 12 Month Old Sleep Gone Wonky and the 2 to 1 Nap Switch. MY problem is, with these long NWs, he needs to catch up on 3 hours lost sleep so there is no ways I feel I can a) push his A time out in the morning by that 15 mins and b) wake him up after 30/45 mins when he’s so short of sleep.
He varies his sleeping habits: 30 mins some mornings and 1h20 over lunch, and other days it will be 1h30 in the morning and 30 mins just after lunch. I don’t think he’s getting too much sleep –he never exceeds 13 hours in total which is the bare minimum advised by all.
I have charted his EASY for over 3 weeks trying to see patterns formed between A and nap times affecting his night times and there are no links!
I have posted my EASY in another thread (SLEEP / General Sleep Issues / Re: EWs for 10 mth DS - OT cycle not broken yet? (WAS: what to do in the EW moment)) but the advice is drying up. Perhaps my 1 week EASY scares people off from reading it! I totally understand :)
It SEEMS he’s overtired but he’s had some good catch up days and nights of sleep where I didn’t think the OT would lead to these NWs! He’s never been a big dap napper but never had night sleep problems… til now.
So my question here is: What do I do once the NW happens?
Of course, I want to prevent them, but I can’t seem to get any answers or solutions to that right now, so … what to do when they happen to prevent them getting more habitual is what I am also seeking answers for:
He wakes at 11pm after going to sleep at 18h30.
He’s been teething on and off for a few months and when he wakes with a yelp every hour or two, we don’t rush in and do AP. We wait and most times he settles and goes straight back to sleep. This has happened for over a month now. NOW, sometimes, after we wait a few mins for him to settle himself, we hear him start talking and we walk in to find him sitting up and wide awake. Content, not wanting us, just wide awake. If we had rushed in earlier and gave him his dummy, we might’ve prevented him getting so awake???… it’s a catch 22 situation!!!
The first time the NW happened, my DH spent an hour in his room trying to shhh him to sleep in his cot. I then took over for the next 2 hours but it was 3 hours in total of struggle and forcing him with rocking his body in the cot; on my body; holding him firmly to stop him from getting up etc. What a way for a little baby to spend 3 hours – being forced to sleep when his mind was not able to sleep. He never cried, just sucked on his dummy and silently rejected and rebelled against our efforts.
The second time it happened, 3 nights later, my DH did the same thing – didn’t let him play; tried to get him back to sleep in the cot and then eventually rocked him at 2 hours… he finally fell asleep.
Last night, 2 nights after previous one, he was so awake I realized I had to try a different route. I left him to play with some toys for a short while; then worried he might get tangled, I lay on the bed next to cot (he didn’t know I was there) and watched him play. He played contently then would flop over in the cot. I would then see that as a sign he was getting drowsy so would help him into a sleeping position, wrap him up and try shhhing him. He just lay looking at me with big eyes for what seemed forever and then would start trying to get up. I would persist for a while then see he was too awake so left him to sit and play again in his cot. He would stand up too. But never cried, never called for us etc.
This went on for 3 hours. I tried picking him up and rocking him. I let him lie on the bed next to me and look at books as this often gets him sleepy. All this was in a dark room with a faint night light on. Abs nothing worked for 3 hours. Not even rocking on me which is my last resort at times. Eventually at 3 hours, after putting him down from a sitting or standing position in the cot, and stroking him as I always do to put him to sleep, he finally drifted off.
Quick history:
10 mth old DS always been a brilliant STTN til about 8.5 months then started EWs (5am instead of 6am).
Always had on the lower end of sleep during day - been a 30 min napper at various stages of his life. It improved but now often goes back to 30 mins for one nap during day no matter what A time I give him! So, normally 1hr 20 and then 30 mins as minimum nap durations.
He’s not had to be rocked to sleep consistently – been an independent sleeper mostly.
Recently I started giving him warm decaf tea before naps as I found it soothed him and made him drowsy. Could this be a problem?
Am I over-stimulating him? I wouldn’t say so. We live a quiet life in a small town; we don’t have many outings to big places; no shops or malls; just playtime with our puppy and myself and our helpers in the house; the odd visit to the beach etc.
Am I dealing with his NW incorrectly?
Is there anyone out there that is up for some detail of his EASY in case we can try get to the bottom of this?
It seems, after reading plenty different websites, 10 months old is a time of sleep going wonky and sleep needs changing… so I am prepared to deal with hiccups BUT I so don’t want this to become a habit and how do I stop that??
And WHAT DO I DO WITH HIM TODAY?
He went to sleep this morning after 2hrs20 A time; only slept for 1hour 25 mins (not long considering his 9 hour night sleep) and I plan to put him down after 3 hours A time just after lunch. If he sleeps only 30 mins, which I often can’t prevent,even with HHTJ, then we really in a serious OT trap.
Thank you in advance if you can shed some light on his 3 hours play time in the middle of the night!
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Hi Kath it is me again! ?! 3 hours NWs sounds really long?!?!?
I feel for you!! It sounds really harsh to deal with.... :(
Your LO sounds like a angel baby though...so sweet of him not to complain when you tried to hold him down in his cot.
I know the advice is 13 hours total of sleep but I know some babies needs less I also think he is getting the right/good amount of day sleep for his age. But these NWs sounds really bizarre!
Is he crawling /walking etc?!? Do you think these NWs are due to developmental changes?!?! I hope this is one of those things that will pass soon though.
I know I haven’t offered much help here. I just hope people can come up with a plan here for you. If I can come up with an idea I will let you know. ;)
xx
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Hi Kath, I have been thinking about your case. I think your LO might need less sleep???? This is a long shot but I have a friend that her LO needed only 1 hour of nap total in day.( 2 30 min naps) and her baby also went to bed at 8pm.
It looks like that he waking up and wanting to play seems to me that he might need less sleep and more play time??!?!
It is just a thought...... ;)
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MY problem is, with these long NWs, he needs to catch up on 3 hours lost sleep so there is no ways I feel I can a) push his A time out in the morning by that 15 mins and b) wake him up after 30/45 mins when he’s so short of sleep.
It seems counterintuitive but it's all the more reason to push his A time in the morning and not to let him catch up on night sleep too early in the day. If he knows that he can party it up at night and catch up early in the morning, there is no incentive for him to stay asleep at night. At the same time, you need to be thinking about what routine he needs to be on at this age and adjusting it to meet his needs.
Several things happen at this age 1) they start to think about a reduction in day sleep i.e. 2-1, 2) they have developed object permanence so SA can be a factor, 3) they usually have teeth coming in which causes routine havoc, and 4) they sometimes have a pretty big jump in A time. And what pp mentions about the other developmental milestones...well it's a big time for LO.
I'm up for it, we need to see the routine so maybe just post last 2 days for me and we'll take it from there :-)
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Hi Grants and Wendy
Grants, to reply to you... thanks for being there in mind and empathy :-)....
He started crawling 1.5 months ago so is well into that. Not ready to walk yet.
You think he might need less sleep than average baby? It seems so as he's been on the lower end of the suggested times since he was an infant. I just wonder if I havent caused that through incorrect A times since early days or if its natural.
The sign I go by is: if he wakes up with that yelp/short cry after this 30 min nap or even his 1h20 nap, then I would think he's still tired. But he won't go back to sleep easily with shhhing or rocking. Usually, after any nap longer than 1 hour 20 he wakes up chatting, cooing but today he woke up after 1hr30 with a yelp and has been grumpy since. OT after a total of 2 hrs day napping (30 mins this morning)?
Hi Wendy, thanks for your input.
Can you tell me what you mean by "pp"?
I am confused as I have been on other websites with similar forums as most advise A times of 2-3 hours for this age. BW is the only forum where mothers/moderators are suggesting 3 - 4 hours A time for him. I was told to cut back his A time in my other thread on this website so ....., I am confused.
He was having exactly 3.15 A time before 1st nap and 3.30 A time before 2nd nap a month ago and sleeping so well - 1hr20 both naps with few 30 min jolts and easy to get back to sleep after a 30 min jolt. He started teething at 6 months and its been ongoing through the good and bad sleep cycles in the past months.
Ok, my EASY:
in the next para....
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EASY since Monday morning:
MONDAY
EW 04:15 - 5:15 (1 hr awake in which I left him to play for 20 mins; DH took duvet & lay on floor with toys; books)
S 5:15 - 6:45 (reading books put him to sleep)
Wake: 6:45
A 3 hours
S 9:45 - 10:15 = 30 mins (He was very tired at 8:45am (2hr A) so gave tea bottle in dark room but he livened up and got chatty; so took out room and tried again at 9:45)
A 02hr35
S 12:50 - 14:15 = 1hr25 (I went in for HTTJ and he woke at 40 mins. With dummy plug and turning him on side, he slept again; I sat there from 1hr10 and didn’t put hand on him; woke at 1:25 quickly with little warning)
A 4hr10
S 18:25 (very tired on bottle - went down in 3 mins)
Total Sleep: 11hrs10min. Day naps 1hr55 and night sleep 9hrs15
SHOCKER NIGHT: NW of 3 hours: 11:35pm - 2:35am!!!!
TUESDAY
Wake 6:10; 6:40 quick wake at 6:10 then back to sleep
A 2hr25 tried to get to sleep at 8:45 (A = 2hrs) but after bottle became awake and needed rocking to get to sleep
S 9:05 - 10:30 = 1hr25 not long considering night wake of 3 hours
A 3hrs
S 13:30 - 14:40 = 1hr10 he was VERY grumpy and clingy after this nap for the entire afternoon. I’ve never seen him so “off”. Clearly overtired but no rocking or shhhing after that nap would get him back to sleep.
A 3hr35
S 18:15 solid sleep through; no yelps; no NW; 4am yelp & self settle
Total Sleep: 12.35. Day naps 1.35 and night sleep 11
INTERESTING to NOTE here: after reading everywhere that poor day napping makes them sleep badly at night (lots of NWs etc), his minimal 1hr35 day napping after a short Monday night sleep resulted in one of the best night sleeps he’s had in ages – not a peek from him from 18:15 through to 4am next morning. ???
WEDNESDAY
Wake 05:15 content wake; DH tried to shhh back to sleep but he lay there calmy eyes wide open
A 3hr15
S 08:30 – 9:00 = only 30 mins! (I missed entering room for HTTJ in time; tried to shhh in cot and rock back to sleep; he was tired and didn’t fight me but wouldn’t close eyes)
A 03hr20
S 12:20 - 13:50 = 1hr30 Jolt at 30 min, proper wake at 40 min; looked at me; cried; I put my hand on chest; he slept again. From 1hr10 I put my hand him. At 1hr30 he just woke up and cried. Grumpy after this sleep.
Since I’ve been charting his sleep, 2.5 weeks now, his total sleep per day has gone like this:
13 - 13.35 - 14.1 - 14.2 - 13.1 - 12.5 - 12.3 - 12 - 11.15 - 15.4 (this was the day post the first 3 hour NW so he was catching up on sleep the next day); 13.15 - 12.35 - 12.45 - 13.2 - 11.1 - 12.35.
So you can see its gone downhill since 2.5 weeks ago, averaging on the 12 hour per day.
I am also having to do HTTJ with 90% of naps which doesn’t always work (this is hard for me and my 6 month preg belly leaning over the cot for long periods).
Ok, best I leave it here otherwise I won’t hear from you again! ;-)
Thank you both very much in anticipation!
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Hi kath. First of all please do not worry so much about total sleep time. My ds is the shame age as urs and some days he only has 11 hours in total and he is fine.some days my lo even have only 1 nap. I was worrying about total sleep time all the time and its not worth it.what i found at this age is that we have to go with the flow a bit more and watch our los cues. Some days my only might even due a 5.5 hours A Time. Some days he will only do 3 hours A times . Trying to relax a bit more about his routine and follow his lead a bit more. If u r tense and worried all the time he can feel it and will fight u even more. I was trying to control my ds routine too much and it all became a battle of wills. I was so stressed and wanting to control him too much that i completly forgot to follow his cues. After i started relaxing and following him more im much more tranquil and as a result he is sleeping so well and not fighting me when going down for nap. ;-)
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ok, I get you Grants. Thanks for giving me the bigger pic.
So if I don't obsess about total sleep time, what does worry me most is the effect this change in his sleep pattern is having on his character and state of mind. He has always been between an angel and text book baby. Rarely cries, moans or fusses.
Recently he has started biting me a lot... hard and intentionally. He won't bite my husband. He bites me when I am playing with him and loving him and then when he's tired and frustrated.
But more worrying for me, is that due to his wonky sleep pattern and INABILITY (no matter what HTTJ and A times I try do inthe day) to sleep longer in his PM nap, he always has at least a 4 - 4.5 hour A time before bed and by 6pm he is so unhappy and the "suicide hour" that everyone talks about sets in. iIts most unpleasant for us all and for him. If i could just get his mind and body to sleep longer in the 2nd nap, til 3ish, then the last A time wouldnt be so damaging to his mood and temparement.
Also, we could then move his bed time back to the good old 6:45pm which then means a wake up of 5:45/6am instead of the new pattern which is sleep by 18:15 and wake at 5am.
His whole nature has changed a bit from content and easy going to frustrated, grumpy and subdued at times.
oh dear...
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Can you tell me what you mean by "pp"?
This means previous poster, so in this case Grants. They have given some things to think about :-)
I am confused as I have been on other websites with similar forums as most advise A times of 2-3 hours for this age. BW is the only forum where mothers/moderators are suggesting 3 - 4 hours A time for him. I was told to cut back his A time in my other thread on this website so ....., I am confused.
He was having exactly 3.15 A time before 1st nap and 3.30 A time before 2nd nap a month ago and sleeping so well - 1hr20 both naps with few 30 min jolts and easy to get back to sleep after a 30 min jolt. He started teething at 6 months and its been ongoing through the good and bad sleep cycles in the past months.
The idea of BW is to follow LO, Tracy gives us tools and tips to teach independent sleep and to keep LO on a routine and to start as we mean to go on. BUt at the end of the day you need to know your own LO and follow what your LO is telling you. You mention that the routine was working about 4 weeks ago, but these kids are changing all the time. At this age, if he's still jolting at 30 mins into the nap, I would suggest that we haven't got the right A time - it sounds OT but it could have started with an UT/OT loop. These A times are averages and as you have seen, they can be so varied. The idea is to think about the average and then apply that to your LO. A 1 hr 20 nap can go either way, we need to figure out what it means for your LO. With such long NW, I suggest UT for some of his naps which then causes OT for the next nap and so on. All this waking and straying from his nice routine is telling us something.
The key is that when we get a short nap, we need to reduce the next A time. So after that nap in the PM, he should have had an earlier bedtime, especially with an EW. 4 hr 10 might have been too much. Definitely not enough sleep for him in the 24 hours.
Yes after a poor nap day some kids can make it up and tack it onto night sleep. But this isn't likely to be something they will do every night as their sleep debt accumulates. They will get more OT from the short naps and then it spirals into OT NW and unsettled sleep. So once in a while they do surprise us, but they aren't equipped to continue to make it up at night. They need the day sleep.
With the change in temperament, well it's partially OT and partially age appropriate. They get frustrated because their brain is ahead of their bodies and they know what they would like to do but can't. They do start to bite and it's mainly due to teething. Also to see what happens - cause and effect. Most LOs behaviour deteriorates when they are tired, much like us :-) But also at this age they are moving towards toddlerhood. It's a whole new world.
I'm not sure what to recommend since you have another thread going but this would probably be where I would start:
- if he wakes at 5:30 and has had 10.5 or more hours sleep I would start the day BUT leave him in crib as long as you can, toys books etc. in there for entertainment - no socializing, keep it dark, no interaction unless he's screaming the house down
- if he wakes before that or had less than 10 hrs, treat as a NW - try to get him back to sleep
- AM nap 1 hr @ ~3 hrs A time BUT not before 9 a.m.
- PM nap 1.5 hrs @ 3.5 hrs A time
- bedtime 6:30 (slightly earlier if PM nap was short)
You need to be sure he's not teething or ill or in pain but then you use PU/PD or shush/pat to get him back to sleep in all cases.
And you give this at least 5 days before changing anything.
It's what we did, with my chronic EW, and it worked for a while. I had a plan and that helped a lot, like pp says, stress is a major hindrance to routine tweaking. Not to worry too much about the sleep totals, but just focus on what he is telling you and how to get him back on a routine that works :-) AND get everyone some more sleep.
This could be the polar opposite to what you have been told on other posts, but given the information I see here I think that he got into an UT/OT loop and he's at the age to start dropping some day sleep - it's like 2 naps is too much but 1 not enough so they need 1.5 naps really and the ability to handle longer A times on less day sleep.
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Hi Kath!
Sorry about the terrible typing on last post but I was typing from my cell phone so that’s why couldn’t write properly. Anyway, I will tell you about our last few days and you will see that there is no logic and not a real routine at the moment!
Day 1:
DS kept on waking up during the night (8 times) moaning and sometimes crying?!?! I had to go in to his room every time to reassure him I have no idea what it is! He is teething but I don’t understand why he is only bothered during the night?!?! During the day he is fine and happy?!?! Can this be OT?
Day 2:
DS didn’t want to wake up from 40 min morning nap. He is quite good waking up after only 30/40 min nap. But it took me 15 mins to wake him up this time. He was so grumpy, unhappy and crying all the time for 1 hour after that!! I regretted not letting him sleep for longer. He only had 1 hour nap in the afternoon on that day as well. I thought he would have had a longer nap in the afternoon as I woke him up earlier when he was so tired?!?!?!
Day 3:
My DS never ever slept until 7! His record is only 6:00am
Today my DS woke up at 4:30am. He was quiet until 5:05 then DH went to his room, lied on the floor, no eye contact and then DS decided to go back to sleep at 5:20am. DS has never done this before!!! These babies are always surprising us!! He slept until 6:10am and had his bottle at 6:15. He felt tired at around 9:40 but then was full of energy again after I gave him a snack. He only went to sleep at 11:10am. I thought he would sleep at least for 2 hours and have only 1 nap. But he woke up after 50mins and then I thought he was hungry as he didn’t eat much before he went to bed( I offered food but he didn’t want much) , Then I gave him his afternoon bottle at 12:00( which I would normally do around 13:30) and he went back to sleep again for another 40 minutes!He has never done this in the past?!?!?! At 15:30 he started to get fussy then I tried to put him down for a cat nap. He lied quietly in his cot, with me there, for 20 minutes and then decided that he can’t fall asleep ,so I reckon he was tired but I guess he just needed some quiet time and not a nap?!?!? I took him out of the cot and he played happily until 18:45 and DH put him down at 19:00.
Day 4:
I came to the conclusion that there isn’t much of a routine at this age. Everything I do work for while and then next second DS changes the whole thing again! So all the routines I tried so far since he is 8 months have changed all the time! I feel that I have to be very creative all the time with his naps, snacks etc…
Day 5:
Today DS fell asleep (8:45am), after only 3.15 A time. Then I tried to wake him up at 9:30 and he wasn’t having it. So I left him to sleep (to avoid the grumpiness of the other day) and have a long am nap today and a short pm one. He slept until 11:00am!! So I guess I will have to watch his cues today and he might need a cat nap later in the afternoon and if he doesn’t want to cat nap I will have to do BT a bit earlier then. But then he had a very late catnap (16:00am) in his pushchair at the park ( I couldn’t avoid it as I was out so I woke him up at 16:30 and he was fine.) But he didn’t want to go to bed at his normal time, between 18:30 and 19:00, as he was full of energy after his late cat nap. He went down at 19:40 and woke up once during the night, I had to go in and just do a bit of reassurance , putting my hands briefly on his back and he went back to sleep. Then woke up at 4:30am but self soothed straight away and slept until his usual 5:30am.
Day 6: ( today)
DS doesn’t want to wake up from his morning nap again?!?!?This time he went to sleep at 10:10am, after 4.40 of A time. I left him to sleep again and he woke up at 11:45am. So I had to watch the cues again. At 16:00 he felt tired. But I decided to try hold him off a bit and do a earlier BT. He always wakes up at 5:30am regardless what time he goes to bed. I may as well avoid the late cat nap today and have an earlier BT. so I put him down at 17:25 and let’s see how the night goes!
So as you can see it is all gone pear shaped for me since 8 months!!
You said your LO used to be Angel/ Textbook. This is exactly what mine is and I thought there was something wrong with him and in the end I realized it was me who wasn’t listening /understanding his needs. Sometimes it is worth taking a step back and thinking about how you are reacting and what we (moms) are doing that is not working. Just some food for thought! ;)
xxx
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hi there Grants and Wendy
Thanks so much for your comprehensive replies. It gives me hope to know that you are out there taking the time to respond.
Its 10 to 9 in the evening now and I am trying to get super early nights myself in case of any more NWs!
I want to think positively and think it would not happen again (the 3 hour type!) but who knows what will come next :-).
I would like to answer to you both in the morning, but just want to ask you a few quick quesitons here:
Tonight, since going to bed, DS has made two quick but piercing phantom cries. He has done this often for the past month or so, except for his "sleep like the dead" night last night. Do either of you know what a phantom cry is all about? I thought it could be pained yelping from teething; or is it night terrors (apparently caused by OT?) or a combo. Intersting that he didnt have one last night.
What would either of you do with your DS/DD if they woke at 11pm bright eyed and bushy-tailed ready to play?
How long would you persist with trying to put them back to sleep; which method would you use (PU/PD) and shh-pat?
I've used neither of these to date as DS has never really cried when going to sleep (just remained awake by pulling at sheets or fiddling) so PU/Pd not appropriate for that... and reagrds shhh-pat... since my DS lies on his back to sleep, I can't pat his back so I place my hand on his chest and do a slight rocking motion on him whilst he lies there. if I get desparate, I pick him up and try sway/rock him to sleep. None of the 3 above help much these days if he wakes up from a 30 min nap or for a NW.
I find that spending 20 - 30 mins doing any of the 3 methods above feels like I am exerting real force on a baby that is unable to drop off to sleep -I start feeling that its cruel, that he will build up further rebellion and feel I am fighting him versus loving him.
How do we rationalise or validate spending over 30 mins trying to force something that is not coming naturally to our LO?
So, with the NW, would you try for as long as it takes to get hLO back to sleep (it took us 3 hours each time) or would you let LO play in his dark room untl he tires out?
Thanks again!
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This is a hard one to answer Kath! My Ds has never done this for 3 hours like your DS. When my LO did this in the past I just left him in the room and he eventually went back to sleep all by himself) . I taught my DS how to sleep independently when he was 4.5 months and now he won’t even let me rock him at all as he doesn’t like it anymore! Does your LO know how to sleep independently? Trying to put myself in your shoes I think I would just leave him in the room playing , if he is happy there is no need to do PD( at this age we should only do PD and not PU/PD. Shh-pat is not appropriate for this age either. So I think I would just leave him in the cot and would only enter his room if he has the “right” type of cry.
Not sure about phantom cry though. The first thing that popped into my mind when I read it was “Pain”. But I’m just using my intuition here as I don’t know anything about phantom cry?!?!?
Night terror is much worse than you are describing and is apparently quiet rare. My LO had it once. Babies who have night terrors cry for quite a long period of time and picking up, cuddling, talking ,nothing works. Very frustrating and upset for parents to watch. When my LO had it my DH and I were trying everything to soothe him and nothing worked. :(
I hope this helps! :)
Hope you have a good night
xx
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Finn cries out almost every night in the early evening, we have yet to work out what it is. Since he goes back to sleep (or possibly wasn't fully awake?) then we just leave it. Really it could be anything, growing pains, teeth, nightmare, switching sleep cycles, etc. Night terrors is different as Grants says. You would know if it was night terrors.
Agree with Grants on the not going in. Really, if he's not crying then he doesn't need you. He does need a routine tweak but that is something you are working on. So I would indeed leave him unless he starts to get frantic about being awake. Night should be as boring as possible. Then if it was 3 hrs I would certainly do everything you tried to get him to sleep. Including APOP.
We've never really had a NW that long either, when he was really young but that was because of reflux. Other than that we have always been able to get him back to sleep. Which is why I think your LO is UT. He's up to play and not too concerned with getting back to sleep. An OT kid normally kicks up a real fuss and a kid in pain, well they will settle with comfort but not for long.
Even though he's UT, I still think he has to understand that night is for sleeping and we don't socialize, play or any other niceties. This is how it works in our world. So yes it might seem harsh to 'force' this on one who is not really tired, but at the same time, he has to conform to what works in your family and what the norm is. And the norm is to sleep at night.
(((hugs))) you are doing a great job! Getting to bed early is the best gift you can give yourself right now.
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Hi Kath,
How did it go last night?
I hope you managed to read our posts before you went to bed. x
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hi there
thanks to you both for your speedy replies in my time of need. I didnt see the replies as fell asleep at my laptop in bed so DH removed it. :-). i shall reply this evening. I have a class for my pregnancy this afternoon.
DS had a very restless night, no doubt, due to the 4hr25 activity time before BT. I knew it would be a problem but he wouldnt even sleep in a car ride in the later afternoon. So his night was full of those phantom cries (I read about them elsewhere on this forum - a quick once off yelp in his sleep and he keeps sleeping). He almost had a proper NW at midnight but I managed to HTTJ and at 2am he awoke from his restless state.
I left him for 30 mins talking to himself in the dark but decided I didnt want a 3 hr stint so i went in, tried to put him to sleep in his cot for 30 mins then resorted to APOP rocking which I could tell he needed... he snuggled into my neck and fell asleep in 15 mins. so the NW was 1.5 hours in total for him.
He slept til 6:30 am so in total had 10hr45 night sleep.
I will write more about today a bit later....
but thanks sooooo much!
until later
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I just wanted to offer some ((hugs)) and if I can help as we go I'll pitch in. My DS also has very long NWs so I may have some thoughts!
I like Wendy's routine though. My DS was always a bad napper until at about 8mths we gave him a fairly structured routine. I really think (if you can and believe me I know how hard it is) you need to avoid the apop at night otherwise you'll end up in more of a pickle.
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Hi all
There is quite a lot to answer to for each of your replies or give comments on, so I can get to the bottom of this with your help. The day ran away with me. Thank you for your useful input!!!!
With such long NW, I suggest UT for some of his naps which then causes OT for the next nap and so on.
Do you mean UT for his BT or UT for a day nap? If its the latter, do you mean UT for a day nap leads to OT for the 2nd day nap? I'm not quite understanding that... sorry!
it sounds OT but it could have started with an UT/OT loop
IS there anywhere on this forum that I can read more about how the OT/UT loop comes about?
Tracy gives us tools and tips to teach independent sleep and to keep LO on a routine
I used to think I knew what a routine was for babies, but now I don't (after this new mudle with DS). The routine is exactly what i am desparately seeking to not only make his life more predictable and settled for him, but for our family unit. I thought all babies could be on a routine if their mother's worked on it? But you say sometimes not, and you just have to take your LO's cues?
BUT what is "routine"? Is it about the baby being clockworked into certain times of the day for naps, BT and A time or is it not so much about the actual times that it happens but more about his body working around specific A, nap and sleep times, as you have suggested above as a path for me to try and follow? My LO has never been on a clockwork schedule but more on the type of structure you suggest above. So it's never been that his first nap is always at 9:15 am but rather it's depended on his awake time that has varied within 30 mins each day, and his mood that day, which has led to his 1st nap varying 30 - 45 min around the 9am mark. That was a good enough routine for me. I followed suggested A times versus specific clock times.
The key is that when we get a short nap, we need to reduce the next A time. So after that nap in the PM, he should have had an earlier bedtime, especially with an EW. 4 hr 10 might have been too much. Definitely not enough sleep for him in the 24 hours.
I've been putting him down at 18h00 in past few days (an hour earlier than used to be) JUST because of pm naps being so short and ending before 14h00. are you suggesting I could put him down even before 18h0. Would he not start waking even earlier in the am?
Thanks Clazzat for the suggested routine tweaking times etc. I will post in a sep paragraph what I did today with it in mind.
Grants, thanks so much for your constant input. It does seem we are experiencing such similar stuff with our same-aged LOs. Your posting of last few days rings bells with me so much. Our LO's cycle so varied yet so much effort from us to get consistency, as promised is possible by everyone's recommendations on this forum .
Sometimes it is worth taking a step back and thinking about how you are reacting and what we (moms) are doing that is not working.
This is exactly what concerns me - my husband keeps telling me that I must not beat myself up about it all right now and that I cant control what is happening with LO to such an extent... BUT I SAY TO HIM, "but I'm the sole determinant of when he gets into that cot to sleep; how long he can play for etc... he can't determine that himself at this age (other than give cues with yawns etc) ... so IT IS UP TO ME and it MAY BE MY FAULT that all this is happening. so I am constantly re-assessing what I am doing that is not working.
my replies to posts following this last one... continued in next para :-)
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sorry, I meant: thanks WENDY (not Clazzat) for your suggested routine tweaking times etc.... my brain is getting fried :-)
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Hi Grants and Wendy
in answer to your para....:This is a hard one to answer Kath! My Ds has never....
For the recent long NWs, I've given DS at least 30 mins to be in his cot on his own and re-settle but he doesnt. he doesnt call for me or cry, he just talks, stands, sits etc. Gets himself more awake basically.
Does your LO know how to sleep independently
Yes, for many months now I could put him down awake in his cot without tea bottle, just dummy and he would fiddle with his rabbit or blanket and most times nod off. only recently, with his crawling dev, that he's been up to rolling over and trying to sit in cot instead of going to sleep.
I didnt know that at this age, shh-pat is not appropriate. Not that I do the real ssh-pat Tracy describes... I have my own "stroking-holding chest with hand" version, but if we don't do that, how do we get him to sleep if he's restless and rejecting sleep, trying to roll over etc?
I think the phantom cry for him is either teething (he's drooling a lot right now) or OT jerks. I'm not sure!
You are right, he's not having night terrors as what you describe about them is not what he is having.
Wendy...
Which is why I think your LO is UT. He's up to play and not too concerned with getting back to sleep. An OT kid normally kicks up a real fuss and a kid in pain, well they will settle with comfort but not for long.
I am surprised if he's UT as, as I said, he's not getting near 13 hours sleep a day in total, and always wakes up from his 30 min nap very grumpy. But yes, he doesnt cry when he wakes for the long NWS. Its as if he's on some stimulant drug - a little robot determined to stay upright and do something! I thought it was the stress hormone Cortisol that is too high in his body due to being OT and Cortisol kicking in. I read that this happens from being OT on another website or on this one... I forget now.
And to end off on all the posts thus far ...
Today his day was like they used to be:
After a good 1hr30 morning nap til 11:25 ( I couldnt bring myself to wake him up after an hour ... after reading Grant's non-success with this and becase I know my DS's 2nd nap is always so hard to push thorugh the 30 min), his afternoon nap at 15h00 (after a 3hr30 A time which is reasonable?) lasted only 30 mins again and I wasnt around to HTTJ.
But I didnt want him to sleep much past 15h30 as he needs a good A time before bed time as far as I can work out from this forum.
I started his sleep bottle and wind-down at 18h30 tonight, it normally recently takes 5 - 10 mins for him to pass out after the bottle (due to his bad sleep cycle at moment), but tonight it took 30 mins with some APOP rocking to get him sleepy. might be linked to his shorter A time this afternoon being 3hr30?
I don't want to speak too soon, but all I can say with regards to today is: due to his late waking at 6:30 am after a NW of 1.5 hrs awake last night, all his day naps were later than the past week of super early napping which meant his last A time for the day was not too long (like the others that have been 4+ hrs). So, 1) he could go to bed at 18:30 instead of 18:00 (although he battled to sleep til 19h00) and 2) his last A time was 3h30. Feels like the good old days.
Now, with him being less scratchy and tired before bed tonight, it will be very intersting to see what happens with his night regards his hourly sleep yelps, any proper NWs that involve my action and the EWs. I know things don't come right overnight so am not holding my breath right now :-)
My plan is to wake up at 5am tomorrow morning to try my first Wake to Sleep effort to try and break his recent habit of waking at 5:15 no matter what time he goes to bed. if I can use WTS for this, as seen a success by others on the forum, then hopefully we're on our way back to some normality. not sure!!!
phew, wish me luck. my brain is fried from all this... I hope you have been able to follow this and make some sense of it all.
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Good luck tonight. If he is awake but doesn't need you I'd leave him to it. I know it's hard but you don;t want him becoming dependant on you at 1am!
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Hi Kath!
If you have your own shh-pat and if it works for you it is fine but by the sound of it might become a prop if you keep on doing it in the middle of the night and when putting him down. If you don’t allow your LO to self soothe or to settle by himself he will become dependent on your shh-pat etc to go to sleep or go back to sleep. I agree with babybarr here! I think if you leave him he will eventually go back to sleep. Going into his room in the middle of the night might be stimulating him even more than if you just left him to it! As you said it yourself since he started crawling he started trying to sit up in the cot etc….this is developmental changes and it is normal at his age. It is one of thoses things and it will pass. Tracy says in one of her books that between 8 and 12 months great variations in routine will happen and we need to just try and go with the flow instead of panicking. She says:"Trying to reach for a quick fix can create greater problems later on."
As for the bit about to take a step back: There is nothing nobody can say to you that can change your attitude towards the whole thing. You need to realize it yourself that you can’t control everything that is going on with your LO and once you have reached that conclusion you will stop beating yourself up for it! It is not worth it Kath! Enjoy your little boy as this phase will pass and you will miss it ater on! I know it is hard to do this as you are in the middle of the problem. But with everybody’s help here you can do it! Have you already started the new tweak suggested by Wendy? How is it going?! At this age as I wrote on my long reply,there is no way of controlling everything. I used to be able to have a proper routine with my LO when he was younger but soon after he started pulling up, crawling and have a bit of his own will it is impossible to keep them on the same kind of routine. These babies change very quickly and it can be very hard to keep up with every change! This is just a phase and it will pass soon enough! ;)
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Do you mean UT for his BT or UT for a day nap? If its the latter, do you mean UT for a day nap leads to OT for the 2nd day nap? I'm not quite understanding that... sorry!
IS there anywhere on this forum that I can read more about how the OT/UT loop comes about?
Basically, it's when LO is UT for the first nap usually, they go down UT, have a short nap, and then they are OT for the next nap, and finally OT by bedtime. They might have a rough night because of accumulated OT, and then go down earlier again for their first nap, again UT and so forth. It perpetuates itself.
I used to think I knew what a routine was for babies, but now I don't (after this new mudle with DS). The routine is exactly what i am desparately seeking to not only make his life more predictable and settled for him, but for our family unit. I thought all babies could be on a routine if their mother's worked on it? But you say sometimes not, and you just have to take your LO's cues?
BUT what is "routine"? Is it about the baby being clockworked into certain times of the day for naps, BT and A time or is it not so much about the actual times that it happens but more about his body working around specific A, nap and sleep times, as you have suggested above as a path for me to try and follow? My LO has never been on a clockwork schedule but more on the type of structure you suggest above. So it's never been that his first nap is always at 9:15 am but rather it's depended on his awake time that has varied within 30 mins each day, and his mood that day, which has led to his 1st nap varying 30 - 45 min around the 9am mark. That was a good enough routine for me. I followed suggested A times versus specific clock times.
Ok well Tracy wanted a predictable series of events, which she calls EASY. So meaning your day has flow and LO knows what is coming next, and it is done in a particular order to promote good eating and sleeping habits and so that you can get a much needed break. It naturally evolves into a routine, based off your wake time. It's not about just the LO cues or just the clock times or even just the average A times, it's about the entire package and finding what works best for your LO. If you find that LO responds better to clock times, then you need to consider those. If you find that you can read cues really well, then you just need to follow those. If you find, like me, that you can't work either out, then you need somewhere to start, a baseline based on what you know to be true about your LO and go from there. For me it was set naps. It helped with both the dropping the CN and the 2-1 transition.
When LO gets to a certain age, they aren't just following a 4 hr EASY anymore. They are finding their groove and developing at different paces so the average A times vary. 3-4 hours is a huge variation. Your LO could be more or less, and they could be more or less at certain times of day. Some LO need a long morning A, others don't. It becomes very individualized in the 2-1.
What we do know about this age group is that they need like 1.5 naps. 1 is too little, 2 can be too much, so we need to start working out how and where to drop some sleep and still keep our days and nights intact.
I've been putting him down at 18h00 in past few days (an hour earlier than used to be) JUST because of pm naps being so short and ending before 14h00. are you suggesting I could put him down even before 18h0. Would he not start waking even earlier in the am?
Yes i am suggesting that sometimes you can put them down earlier to get a longer night. But yes, there is always the danger that they may wake earlier. But you want to keep as much OT at bay as possible as LO transitions to less day sleep.
I think you are doing so well, you are being too hard on yourself :-) I know how that feels though. And it's so easy to get caught up in the numbers and the tweaks, we forget to enjoy them at this age, every day with them is a gift and before you know it they are walking, talking and have minds of their own. Hang in there!
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Hi all
Thanks Wendy for your most recent post. Very encouraging stuff to absorb. My biggest problem today is that I am now way overtired myself as DS's night was very restless last night, I was up a lot as well as from 4:15am and with no sleep in the day, the last week is now wearing down on my phsyical and emotional state. I agree, I don't want to lose sight of enjoying him whilst he is so cute but I cant help feel depressed and energy-less from exhaustion and with no time for me at all at the moment, almost resentful of him at times. Like I just want to go away and have 2 solid days to myslef to catch up on sleep, muy life, my planning for the next baby in November, some personal admin... one's life feels out of control in situations like this.
I compiled my reply to Grants and BabyBarr before I saw yours now... so will continue with that...
Here’s a quick run down of LO’s night. Despite having had back to normal A times, an ok amount of sleep (2 hrs) and what seemed his old normal days, his night was very restless with the phantom yelps every hour or so in his sleep. At 11am he sounded like he was coming out of sleep properly into wakefulness so I went into to apply HTTJ. His little body was jolting and jerking a lot for 15 mins.
He had his usual yelp at 4am which normally passes and we don’t enter room, but this time, it turned into wakefulness. I left him for 30 mins then he got louder and more chatty so I decided I needed to put him back to sleep as this is considered a NW (as per pp) and went into hold him in cot. He wriggled under my hold for 20 mins, eyes closed. I got tired of the HTTJ position so went back to my room thinking he would settle on own. He started talking loudly. I asked DH to see what he could do. DH took some time with hand on LO’s chest and he went back to sleep for an hour til 6:30am.
So back to your advice – do I really leave him each time he wakes up? Its proven that every time I’ve left him to do his own thing, he’s woken himself up more by talking and sitting than going back to sleep. Sometimes he does get bored and start calling for us. So, I would only land up with a baby with 3/4s of a night’s sleep and then a pear-shaped day of naps resulting from that. I am confused, as I thought we were here to train them into better sleeping habits, not to leave them to their own devices?
And about the control thing, I guess I read everywhere that people work on these problems and fix them. Its amazing how many success stories are posted from mothers applying methods and techniques to get their babies out of bad habits and back to the good ones. So, I am therefore thinking, surely that is the reason for BW and the forum – to fix problems? Not to leave so that they babies get into bad habits that are irreversible? Sorry to sound so confused, but now I really am ;-(
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Sorry to confuse you. I would never advocate leaving a child who is unhappy or needing something, but just sometimes they need to learn to self settle - without a parent there. I know where you are coming from with wanting to help your baby sleep and wanting to do anything you can possible to get them a good night's sleep - just look through some of my previous threads and you'll see my journey.
I guess what I was worried about was you getting into the habit or rocking your LO back to sleep. HTTJ is a little different as you are not actively doing AP. I think probably with a routine tweak or 2 you'll get there. Only you know your LO best and you do what you feel is right.
Something that we found helped us at around 8/9mths was having a more structured routine, so even if DS woke a bit early or was up loads in the night we pretty much stuck with similar nap times and bedtimes. It kinda helped regulate him a bit.
What routine did you follow today and are you going by "A" times?
Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression :-*
Laura x
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I agree, I don't want to lose sight of enjoying him whilst he is so cute but I cant help feel depressed and energy-less from exhaustion and with no time for me at all at the moment, almost resentful of him at times. Like I just want to go away and have 2 solid days to myslef to catch up on sleep, muy life, my planning for the next baby in November, some personal admin... one's life feels out of control in situations like this.
It's normal to feel this way and especially with a kid who doesn't sleep at all or sleep well. I am sure Laura and I have both felt like this many many times :-)
Finn didn't nap really until 7.5 mths, not naps I could count on. And certainly he was always up before 5:30 a.m. 5:30 was a gift most days, if it happened. We really struggled with EASY as he had reflux and didn't eat as he was supposed to either. I kept thinking maybe Tracy's methods just wouldn't work for us. But in the end, I really had nothing else. I had no plan, no one to really give us advice on how to get our kid to sleep - most just said 'let him cry' and it was not something DH or I felt comfortable with. So we perservered and never looked back. Your LO is older than Finn when we started our sleep training so it might be harder to break some habits, like going in too soon and him not learning to self-settle. It's not to say don't tend to him, just to try to have a more defined strategy or a plan for NW. Him self-settling is not the bad habit. If it means he wakes and takes some time to go back to sleep, that's ok, as long as he isn't needing assistance then it's really the best way for him to learn. They learn by doing and repetition and cause and effect.
is there anyone who can give you a break at all? So you can get some sleep and clear your own head a bit? Sometimes it helps to step back before you step forward IYSWIM.
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Hi there gilrs!
Kath , I hope you had a better night last night . I don’t know what else to say to you ?!?! This very long NWs sounds like a torture to me! :( The leaving him to settle by himself during the night it is a hard one as it is so hard to judge what is the best time to go into your LO's bedroom and what time is best to leave him to self soothe?!?! With such long NWs It must be really hard to judge!? Especially when your LO is having these phantom yelps!?! My LO did this last night?!?! What did you say it was supposed to mean? Like Wendy I also thought that perhaps you could ask your hubby to do a few nights for you to have a break?!?!
I’m the one who need a bit of advice today! So Kath, Wendy and babybarr I’m open to any suggestions and insights.
My LO is finding it difficult to wake up from his short am nap. As I posted earlier I kept on leaving him to take the longer nap in the morning instead of the afternoon as he didn’t want to wake up! I know it is not a problem to have the long nap in the morning but the problem I find with my DS is that he wants to nap at around 10am, he wakes up at . But then he wants to have a late afternoon cat nap at around 16:00. This is too late as it mess up with his BT. My LO can do a 4 hours A time or a bit more even when he only have 30/45 min cat nap. I have spoken to other moms in this forum and lots of them don’t find a problem having such a late nap as by BT the day have caught up with their Los and they still go to bed at their usual time. My conundrum is if I leave him to have a long am nap he only wants to have pm nap at around 16:00/16:30 and now I even have to do AP( putting him in the pushchair for the short pm nap as he is resisting the cat nap) I haven’t done AP since he was 4.5 months when I implemented 4 hours EASY, taught him how to sleep independently( he only knew how to fall asleep if I rocked him) and taught him how to sleep longer the 30 mins ( he only would take cat naps and never would sleep longer than 30 mins) . I don’t like the idea that now he only wants to sleep on the pushchair for his short nap and also don’t like the fact that I’m caught on this cycle-if I don’t put him in the pushchair he will carry on playing until he is OT but when he does take his cat nap it is already too late and messes up with his BT. Some days he will skip his pm cat nap altogether and on those days we do a early BT (17:00/17:30) but I also don’t want to hold him every day until 17:00 , for a earlier BT without having a cat nap as if I do this every day he might end up getting OT?!?!? :( Last night he took his cat nap too late again and I put him to bed at 19:20 after only 3 hours A time. He woke up the whole night long (at least 12 times and wouldn’t go back to sleep, he was moaning, complaining and crying and also had those yelps like Kath’s LO. I first thought he was UT because I put him to bed only after 3 hours A time but then I realized that he wasn’t happy and didn’t want to play. He was moaning and crying. Like saying:” I really want to go back to sleep but I can’t! “He also would start self soothing but then the self soothing would become a cry?!?! So I gave him some pain med at 2am thinking that it could be teething. But the meds didn’t work.
Today he went down for his am nap a bit earlier than normal (8:50 am ) He woke up at 5:30am as usual. I think because he was tired from the terrible night. So I thought It wouldn’t be too bad to have his long am nap as he went down earlier than normal. But then he woke up after 40 mins?!?! I don’t think he will have his pm nap too late as he woke up only 9:30 today. But overall I don’t get it!!! I accept the fact that at this age it is hard to keep a proper routine, therefore I’m following his cues all the time. But I think the minimum I can do is to make sure he has his naps and doesn’t get OT!?!?!
So my questions are:
Could this be separation anxiety?
How do I solve this conundrum? Can I skip his afternoon cat nap and do an early BT everyday. Would this make him OT?
Sorry Kath for invading your thread. If you guys think I should post my questions on “General sleeping problems forum” just let me know. I just thought it would be interesting to exchange some experience here as you guys already know a bit about my DS. And Kath’s DS is the same age as mine.
Thank you guys!
xx
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Hi all,
Thanks for replies.
Its 3pm now, DH has taken DS out so I can try get a nap as last night was another NW at 8:30 - 10pm (after a 18h15 BT), most bizarre time to NW. Then a restless night but without proper wakes thank goodness, an EW at 5 but he self-soothed back to sleep til 6am. 10hr15 night sleep in total. Gone are the 11 hour sleeps to make up for bad day naps!
This morning, I tried to do a perfect appropriate A time for first nap (3hr A time) and I was there for HTTJ BUT he woke up very definitely at 30 mins and I am convinced my HTTJ was the problem this time as sometimes I think he senses my presence in his stirring and that makes him wake up. other times my HTTJ works like a bomb.
Its horrible to not have anything to rely on!
So, am nap was 9 - 9:30am.
A time was 2h45 til 12:15.
Pm nap: 12:15 - 13:45 = 1.5 hr (I didnt bother doing HTTJ as am too scared to do it or not do it - I just threw caution to the wind and he slept solidly). I thought he would do a 2 hour nap at least with all his lack of sleep recently but only did 1.5 hours.
It seems his day naps are now consistntly totaling 2 hours only, and his night sleeps 10.5hrs ... so we're just making the 12 hour total sleep mark these days.
We have a long afternoon A time now - if he is asleep by 18h00, it will still be over 4 hours! but what can I do!
I admit, I have had it easy and lucky til now - DS slept through from 3 months til 8.5 months; always til 6am; never had reflux for us to deal with etc. He was a brilliant night sleeper and more difficult day napper for some periods. So, perhaps I have to accept that now is my time of challenge and its due after a fairly easy time til now!
If I must accept it in that light, I will work on my mindset so I can get thorugh this time in a better way, BUT I just don't want what is happening now to become habitual IF I can help it. If others on this forum have managed through effort and work to get their LOs back to decent wake times and decent day naps, then I believe I should be able to. That is half my problem -I think "IF THEY CAN, WHY CANT I?".
I will most definitely reply to your post Grants ... sorry to end off now... I must just take this opportunity for some sleep. My DH is now geting agitated with the time I spend on this forum as he wonders if it helps us at all.He insists I get sleep, which is true too, so I'll be back a little later.
thanks to you all. What would I do without the internet, this forum... and your ears and eyes and minds.
xxxx
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Hi Grants
We really do seem to have the same issues with our LOs. My LO won't have an afternoon catnap at around 4 if he had a short early lunchtime nap so it also messes with his BT and makes him OT by bedtime.
Could this be separation anxiety?
How do I solve this conundrum? Can I skip his afternoon cat nap and do an early BT everyday. Would this make him OT?
I never think of SA as the problem for my LO... not sure why. But it could be... I would rather leave that guesswork to the moderators and experienced ones in this forum.
But just to say that my LO skips the catnap as I know he won't even take it in the car now which used to easily make him drowsy, so it means he goes down an hour earlier than he used to (18:00 instead of 19:00) which then I think results in earlier wakings in the morning which is a real issue for us. waking at 5am is much harder than his old 6am wake up.
So, I have no answer/solution for you here but just saying that I am prone to the same afternoon problem, I don't have much option other than earlier BT now and possibly an OT baby rather often... and perhaps all we can do is wait this time out until their bodies fit into the next stage which is the "less sleep" stage where this long afternoon won't make them OT and their sleep will settle again? I'm not sure.
Especially when your LO is having these phantom yelps!?!
Sorry, I am mixing terminology up here. My own wording I use for his short cries is "yelps" as it literally is just a once off shout/cry, as if its a yelp from pain or a fright from a dream... and thats it... he goes quiet and carries on sleeping.
The "phantom cry" terminology is something I either got off this website/forum in a different topic, or off another parenting website. But I might've got the wording wrong as I've just googled the word "baby's phantom cries" and what comes up is not what I understood or read in my flurry of reading on various websites the other day. if I come across it again, I'll let you know.
Good night for now. I have more to ask, say but bedtime calls.
x
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Thank you for the reply Kath!
I meant SA just during the 12 NWs in one night not for the late naps... Sorry my mistake as I haven't expressed myself properly! ;)
By you description the "Yelps" is different from what my LO had last night. He was crying like he lost somebody a really upset cry(more emotional cry) That's why I thought could be SA?!?!
Anyway....I will wait to see what Wendy and babybarr have to say.
I hope you have good night!!
:)
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I forgot to mention kath that my ds also used to wake up at 6am but now wake up at 5:30 sometimes 5 :-( like u i also long for a 6am wake up! i dont think there is much i can do about it as my ds has a full night's of sleep so i dont think i can really force him to sleep any longer.plus i dont want to do bt later as by 7pm im exhausted! It is amazing how our los r so similar! It must be the south african blood as my dh is also a south african! lol
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Grants - have you got your old thread hun? Just you may get a gew extra eyes there too then. Have you got any teeth cutting? Lots of NWs here indicates some sort of discomfort.
Kath have you tried fairly fixed nap times - I couldn't believe how much this helped my chronic short napper.
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Thanks for the reply babybarr! I thought it was discomfort thats why i gave calpol but it didnt help?! Thats why i thought about separation anxiety ??Good idea about my old thread. I will try to post it there as well or it may be better to open a new one as the old one was from almost 2 months ago.
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Start a new - always best to have the most up to date info. Put a link here and we can jump on!
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Hi Kath, How are things with your LO?! I was wondering how things are ?!