BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: EloysH on August 22, 2010, 04:21:02 am
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Heya
We seem to be having a rough trot.
DS2 is 5 months has reflux is under control. When he was 4 months old we moved him from the sleeping in the sling during the dat to the cot. We nearly got hm sleeping independently but then he got a cold for two weeks, so we let him get held the last bit to sleep in our arms. Now his cold is better and he try to get him to sleep in the cot using shh pat but always relent at the end and put him to sleep in our arms (as he is so stubborn!).
Anyway, he used to wake 2 times a night if lucky. Now without fail for the last 3 weeks or so he wakes 5+ times a night. He wakes 45 mins after he is put to sleep, then about an hour later. We resettle by picking him up and he goes back to sleep within 5 mins. Then he wakes around 10pm, I feed, then 1am - feed, then 3-4am - feed. Sometimes he thinks he's up for the day around 4-5am too and won't go back to sleep for about an hour, playing etc then just has another 45 mins sleep.
To top it off, hes not gaining weight well, even though he eats every 3-3.5, hourly in the day and seemingly at night now. He's only been gaining an average of 50g a week for the last 6 weeks. He's not in pain, as I said he has silent reflux, he seems happy and content, if not OT, sometimes.
Honestly, I am just operating in autopilot during the day. On top of it all he has food intolerances which only seem to be mostly under control if I follow a strict Elimination Diet. So I am extra grouchy cause my diet is really difficult to administer and boring.
His feeds at night vary from really hungry to snacks. At least one of the feeds will be a snack, sometimes two. Last night all were snacks except the 5am feed.
I don't dare refuse a feed ast the moment due to his weight gain issues.
I posted on this board aout a month ago and the girls recommended to up his A times. It seemed to work, I upped him to 2 hours at 4months old. Now I think he's OT who knows? And I think the independent sleeping is now an issue.
E: 5am up for an hour.. or else will just cry in his cot for ages because he wants to play can't let him do that as he will wake Ds1 in the next room
A: 5-6am
S: 6 - 6:45
A: 6:45 - 9:00am
E: 8am
S: 9:00am - 9:45am
E: 11am
A: 9:45am - 12:15pm
S: 12:15 - 1:45pm
E: 2:30pm
A: 1:45pm -4:00pm
S: 4- 4:45pm
E: 5pm
A: 4:45 - 7:00pm
E: 7:00pm
S: 7:00pm
wakes 7:45pm
9pm
10pm - feed
1am feed
3:30am feed
5 am wake
Is there anything I can do????????
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Can't say I can help at all. But DS was like this at the same age. At 7 months we finally got him back to normal. It seemed for us 5-7 months was full of night wakings. We just rode it out and then around 7 months we started decreasing the amount of formula in his bottle and his waking stopped.
As for him waking DS1, our DD does this, she likes to wake up around 6 and chat for awhile and yell for us, so we ended up putting a white noise machine back in DS's room so he wouldn't wake up from hearing her. Seems to do the trick.
Sorry I'm not much help. Good luck!!
Good luck!
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Eloys - Can he actually put himself back to sleep or do you always have to pick him up to hold him to get him to sleep/back to sleep? When Ethan was about 7 months old, he was ill so had to AP him to sleep as he lost the ability so self soothe which also meant he couldn't put himself back to sleep when he woke in the night. This sounds similar to what you've got going on right now. I didn't feed him at all during these times as night feeds had stopped by then but had to go into him room several times a night to rock him back to sleep. That's when I came to BW help as didn't know what to do and was looking for an alternative to CIO. He was a bit older than Kai is now so just did shush/pat to solve them problem. It took a while but we got there in the end......
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*hugs* I can completely identify with your situation. We are having similar issues with Emory, except usually we are at 2 night feeds. This went from 1 to 2 when we went to a 4 hour feeding cycle.
I do remember that Lyle went through this as well at this age. Like Lisa's LO. And all of a sudden at 9 months, poof he started not waking after he went to bed for the night.
However, Like Karen. I no longer feed at night at this age. BUT, Lyle would take a bottle at night and I did the DF. So it was really really easy to see how much he was taking, etc. So I coulf feel confident that he wasn't hungry. It's a lot hard when they are EBF and won't take a bottle.
Sh/pat does not work AT ALL with Emory.
DH has been using pu/pd and that goes well for him. But, Emory is also very very stuborn with me, and I think the milk just smells way to yummy for him. He is through and through a booby boy.
Is there anyway you can get DH to help with some of the nightwakings? Like set time periods that you are willing to feed, and stick to those?
I understand this might be hard. As, chris has been on nights and he's leaving for a week. Sigh. So it's going to be fun times in our house this week as well.
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Thanks Lisa, Karen and Sherry :)
He can't put himself to sleep on his own yet. He does try but it goes on and on, he gets really frustrated with sucking his fists through the wrap and always ends up needing us. We just haven't had the determination to get him to fall asleep on his own I guess, he is fighting shh pat alot, thats why we are resorting to putting hin in our arms. I'm sure that's part of the problem.
I just got in to the new paediatric allergist for tomorrow (cancellation) - so I can discuss his weight gain and ngiht wakings with her. That will be relief as we are not too sure the best course of action - freq feeding, or 4 hourly feeding, would night feeds be important, early solids, or supp. with a bottle of formula?
Anyway, I was sort of hoping he would sort it out on his own and wake less, but do you think we will have to go the hard route and sort the independent sleeping before he wakes less? DH is prepared to do the NW's once we aer serious. We tried to cut him off a few times when he woke at 2.5 hours after the last feed, but after 30 mins of crying with DH trying to get him back to sleep I gave up and just told DH that I would feed, him, DH was not too happy!
I remember when Jarrah was well established on solids about - 7 months we cut him off at night also, he has still waking once or twice a night. It all worked really well, but he was independently sleeping and also didn't have any weight gain issues.
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I imagine the route of the problem is that he can't self soothe. Once he can put himself to sleep then he'll be sble to put himself back to sleep in the middle of the night. Until he can leave this skill though he's going to rely on you to do. When you're ready to do it then commit to it. Honestly, it's exactly where we were with a 7 month old Ethan and although it was very hard work at the time, it didn't take too long to start seeing results.
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I agree with Karen :-\
However, I do completely understand where you are at. I tried to extend Emory again today, and he just went on and on with the nonsense. So I went in to do pu/pd and ended up putting him in the swing. I'm really kicking myself right now though because Lyle was actually leaving me a long, so I should hafe stuck it out and just did it longer.
But, the thoughts that go through our heads are our own worst enemy.
He was refluxing a lot this morning, so I was telling myself, well.... maybe he's just not feeling well.... maybe he's too OT, etc......
I imagine those are the same words that go through your head.
We didn't have weight gain issues with Lyle, and I don't know if you'll have time to read this before you go to the docs, but I will say that his sleep did not get sorted at all at this age until I stuck to the 4 hourly feeds.
I would feed a little early sometimes if he was napping horribly but for the most part at 6 months is when I really buckeled down and tried my best to stick to 2 hours A time and 4 hourly feeds because things were just really really really bad at this age. So I had to have a game plan and after many many many posts on the EASY board I finally commited to this and it worked really well (well, better than anything previously.
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Eloise, I don't know if what I have to offer will help, but I'll tell you what happened with Ellen, and it sounds a lot like what's happening with your LO too. At 4 months, she went from sleeping 2-3 hours at a time per nap to 45 minute naps and from 1 or 2 NW to eat to 5-6 NW. I finally found this website and realized that she should have been on a 4 hour easy and was no where near that. I'm not an expert, not all that good at easy, and Ellen's naps still aren't perfect, so take all I say with a grain of salt, but I think your atimes are still way too short - especially your first one. Ellen was still at about an hour for her first atime at the same age as your LO (apprx 5mo) and I think finally solving that made the biggest difference. She was acting sooooooo tired and ready to go to bed an hour after waking up - and she still does. It took me FOREVER to get her up to 2 hours for the first atime b/c I was too much of a wimp to make her stick it out. But I finally did, and then when I got her to 2:15 first atime, I FINALLY got a 1:45 nap. I stayed with 2:15 for a few days and her nap eventually shrunk down to 45 minutes. So I upped it to 2:30 and she got a 2 hour nap. That one too eventually shrunk, and so on. I am now at 3 hours first atime (I never thought she'd get that far!!!) and I'm about to go up to 3:15 b/c it went from a 2 hour nap for several days down to a 1 hour nap yesterday and today.
I only worked on her first nap until I got that right, and then I gave her the same atime for for her second atime (which I realized quickly was too little) so then I did a 3 hour atime for her second and third atimes b/c she was just able to go longer after her first nap. Sometimes I'd have to do a CN, but sometimes her second nap would be long enough to make it to bedtime. I have never been good at resettling (she never woke up tired enough to be resettle-able b/c she was UT to begin with) so the only thing that worked for me was gradually upping her atime. Now she usually gets 1-2 hours nap in the morning and 45-1 hour in the afternoon. Sometimes her first nap is off and we have to do a CN, but not very often anymore.
Also, from your post, your LO is getting about 3 hours and 45 minutes sleep during the day. This might be why he's not sleeping very good at night... I have recently realized that if Ellen gets more than 3 hours during the day, she has a lot of NW. Maybe your LO needs that much, but it could also be just a little too much. Just something to think about. I think if you can consolidate naps (by tweaking atimes) you will be able to spread them out over the day evenly so that he doesn't need so many and thus his total day sleep time might shrink just a little and he won't be UT at bedtime.
In your post, your longest atime is 2.5 hours (945 to 12:15) and that is the only time he has a long nap. That is the atime I would work toward for every atime except his first. The first, I'd try to increase by 15 minute increments for two to three days each increment until you get a long nap. Then stay at that atime until his nap shrinks back down to 45 minutes. I think you will be surprised at how much more atime he can handle. I can't believe Ellen is about to be at 3:15 for her first atime where a month ago, she was barely at 1.5. It's not easy to increase atime. I always feel guilty b/c she acts so tired. But if I don't stick to my guns, I get UT naps. The first nap is the most important in my opinion. Once you get a good long first nap, your second atime can be appropriate and you will probably get a good second nap too. That kinda just followed naturally for us. I didn't have to do much purposeful work for it - I just didn't let her go down before 3 hours (though in your case I'd start with 2.5 since that's what got him his only good nap)
I really attribute a lot of my success to Mommy Mertel and Daylene too. The ONLY thing that has worked for me is sticking to my atimes, even if it's hard. If she wakes up at 45 minutes, I still do a 3 hour atime b/c I know if I don't, I'll get another 40 minute nap. The only time I shrink an atime is if she has two really short naps in a row I'll shrink it by 20-25 min or so.
Anyway, maybe some of this will be helpful, maybe not. I hope so. I know it's hard to stick to atimes, I find the last 30 minutes is really hard a lot of times and I just want to put her down so I can have a break, but I know that it's not worth it cuz it'll be such a short break.
Anyway, gotta go wake Ellen up so she will be ready to go to bed at bedtime. Good luck!!
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thanks luv I agree, will be back to read more thoroughly and with questions..... thanks again..xxx
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Megan, I am so hopeless, I completey missed that you were pregnant! Many congrats!
thanks again. Your A times seem scarily big, but good to know that it might just be the answer to keep pushing him for more A time. I would so love to be on two naps at the moment. I think I will work at extending that first A time and see where that leaves us. Do you find she is out of sorts at bedtime or is she ok?
We are also working oursleves up to do a bit more sleeping training and stop this fallign asleep in our arms business. he jsut had his shots yesterday, DH and I are just about ready to committ again. I just don't want to him to have long periods or weeks crying as it expends so much energy and I am still worried about his weight. Getting hm into the cot from the sling was seriously two weeks of crying for half an hour for most sleeps, just did my head in. I think or A times were too low also, which made him fight it even more. Even though we were comforting him all the way, it was such a big change for the poor guy, he didn't take it it to well. Maybe this time it will be easier.
Yet if I don't get him sleeping better, how can he gets the rest he needs to grow? Chicken and egg.
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Eloys - I think you are right about the A times last time. And I would say that in my experience getting the A time right BEFORE you start sleep training makes all the difference.
That can be hard though. We are working on extending A times right now. Why is it so hard for some babies :(
I ended up having to do PU/PD this morning. Luckily it didn't take too long. I wasn't having these problems before I tried extending the A time. :( But, I also know that we do need to work on it. Luckly PU/PD doesn't seem to aggrevate the reflux. Pat/sh really just does not work on him.
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Thanks on the congrats :)
My a-times ARE scarily big!!! It's getting easier, but when I first started, it was SO hard to play with her for so long. I was used to an hour awake, two hours sleep!! Now it's just a matter of keeping her occupied for 3 hours, which is really hard even though she's pretty good at entertaining herself for some of that time. But also, keep in mind, it took me over a month to get here and I'm still working on it, so you'll have time to adjust to it. That's where I had a lot of problem - I am not a patient person and I wanted the solution to happen overnight and it just doesn't work that way.
Her bedtime has really been the only thing that has always been pretty much under control. I think it's important to have a consistent BT for the LO, but what motivates me is my evening time and the knowledge that it will end at a specific time :) Her BT hasn't been affected by pushing her atimes, but mostly I think b/c if she needs 3 naps, I monitor the last nap very closely and wake her up at a time when it will work with BT. For example, FOREVER she was ending her last nap at 2ish and her BT was no earlier than 6, but ideally b/t 615 and 630 (I have now pushed it back to 7ish so she'll sleep later in the mornings). Earlier than 6 and it was guaranteed to be a nap, not bedtime. So first I tried splitting that 4 hours in half, but that didn't work b/c she wasn't tired enough to go down. So I'd wait until 2.5-3 hours (depending on her) and put her down and monitor exactly what time she fell asleep. Then I'd wake her up exactly 20 minutes later. Any more and she'd fight BT more than usual. Sometimes I'd push her BT back 20 or 30 minutes but usually she was ready to go to bed at her normal time anyway, even with the super short atime after the 20 min nap. But now that we have extended atimes and thus her naps have extended, they are also more evenly distributed throughout the day. So my day looks like this: up 3 hrs, down 1-2 hrs, up 3-3:15, down 45-1, up 3-315 so her BT is right on track. It took a lot of waking her up from CNs to get there b/c I don't let her go 4 hours w/o a CN if I can help it.
You are probably already doing this, but I also think it's very important to log EVERYTHING. That way you can see patterns specific to your LO and see what works for him and what doesn't. I finally got so frustrated trying to figure out atimes and adjust for them that I went and bought a wrisother bumch and synchronized all my clocks. I don't adjust atimes anymore - and that is when we made our real breakthrough, btw - but I log everything to the minute. I hear her peep in the morning, I look at my watch and remember the time even though I don't go get her right away. I log what time I put her down and what time she actually falls asleep. I log how much I feed her and at what times. Knowing how long it takes her to fall asleep is important - if it takes 20 minutes, I probably put her down a bit too early (this is why her afternoon atime is 315 rather than 3). I've also recently started calculating totals: total day sleep, total night sleep, and how many ounces. Also how many times she cries out or wakes up at night. I didn't expect to get much info this way, but I actually realized that when she sleeps more than 3 hours during the day, she cries out a lot at night and sleeps fitfully. This is really valuable info to me b/c now I know if I want a good night, I better not let her oversleep during the day, tempting as it may be!! :)
Just remember that it takes a long time. And sometimes it will seem like you are getting nowhere. Or you'll have a good day followed by 3 days of bad naps again. You just gotta keep working till you get that first nap sorted out and just do what you need to to get through the rest of the day. And also, a mistake I made was to try to make jumps too soon... what worked for me was to make a jump, get a long nap, and then stick with that atime until the nap shrunk back down to 45 minutes for at least two days in a row. Those two days are hard b/c you know the rest of the day is messed up, but you gotta make sure he's really ready for the next jump.
I'm sorry, I talk a lot and I feel like I'm not very clear b/c I over explain. So I'll summarize what worked for me and what in your shoes I would try. I don't want to sound like I'm telling you this is the only way to do it or whatever, I know you'll of course only do the things that make sense to you and work for you, and hopefully other people will also give you input too and you can combine all the pieces that work. But here's what worked for me:
Work on extending the first atime by 15 minutes every two days until you get a long nap or a 30 minute OT nap. If you get that, go back to the previous 15 minute increment for a few days. All other atimes should be 2.5h until you feel that needs to be increased just a bit or unless you get OT naps for two or three days in a row with that. If you get a long stretch between last nap and BT, try a CN but don't let him sleep too long depending on how long that stretch is. What worked for me is sticking to this plan no matter when Ellen woke... long nap or short, her atimes were always the same. That's what made all the difference in the world even though it was really hard to do, especially at first.
Eloys - I think you are right about the A times last time. And I would say that in my experience getting the A time right BEFORE you start sleep training makes all the difference.
I absolutely agree with this. I am a wimp too when it comes to her crying, and I was determined to do sleep training, but never really could stick it out. That's why to me atimes are so important. If you can get the atimes right, the sleeping really just follows. Or at least it makes it a lot easier. I only do sleep training (pu/pd or whatever) when she's super duper OT and I know she just has to sleep. If I have any doubt whatsoever as to whether or not she's tired enough, I just don't have the balls to do it. I'm a serious wimp. In your shoes, I def try to get his atimes right before trying to get him to fall asleep in his cot by himself... he'll fall asleep much easier if he's sufficiently tired.
Anyway, sorry for talking your ear off... hope some of it is helpful!!
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Megan - your LO sounds just like a LO that was on our BC before. Just a heads up - she will probably go to one nap very young, and she will probably drop the nap pretty young.
The mom of this LO found the same. If her LO slept longer than 3 hours in the day then she had NW problems.
Also when the LO was a little older than your LO she found that her daughter could not sleep for more than 1.5 in the morning. But, for the longest time she did 1.5 for both naps. She woke her after 1.5 for the first nap. I'm wondering if you did that, then maybe you could get two even naps.
Your A times are much much longer than most. My LO couldn't not even do 3 hours after a 1 hour morning nap at 9 months. I tried cutting the first nap to one hour to get rid of an EW problem, and finding that next A time after a one hour nap was impossible. You are doing a great job. I hope things continue to go smoothly for you, and that she stablizes at this A time for awhile for you.
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Thanks! Yeah, I was thinking they were a little high for her age. She pretty much slept through her first three months... I sure wasn't expecting her to make it to a 3 hour atime, but I guess she's making up for lost time! :) I bet you're absolutely right about dropping the naps sooner than average, not that I want her to :( And you're already right about her not sleeping very long in the morning. She has gotten some 2 hour naps when I upped it each time, but it soon drops down, and I don't think that she's going to have a 2 hour nap even with her 3 hour atime. Which I thought I'd have to up again, but I think I better not just yet. I'll just have to be happy with 1 - 1.5 for the first nap length. Which actually works out well b/c then her 2nd nap can be longer and not interfere with night sleep.
Also, Eloise, this is a really good point she's making. I'm definitely not telling you to try to get to 3 hours... I'm just thinking you should up your atime until your naps get to where you want them. It may be 2 hours, it may be 2.5 or 3. I definitely don't think you should work toward a particular time... I'm just saying go with what works for your LO.
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thanks again Megan, up in A is the way to go then ;)
thanks Sher :D
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thanks again Megan, up in A is the way to go then
I hope so... I'd feel really bad if you try it and things get worse instead of better!! :-\ Let me know how it works out.
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thanks again Megan, up in A is the way to go then ;)
So what are you going to do exactly Eloise?
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the last week or so been doing 2 hrs 15, and then falls asleep by 2 hrs 30 mins. Except the morning is more like 2hr - 2hr 15. Lets hope its not too much too soon.
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I hope it goes better for you, than it is for me in regards to upping the A time. I am having the opposite problem. Everytime I increase I have to do pu/pd because he is OT :(
I just wanted to let you know that I am having a TON of success with pu/pd, maybe you find that as a little bit of incourgement. I was actually going to post a thing on FB about it, I still might :) I did pu/pd at 1:15 this morning :) I was so proud of myself for not giving in and just feeding him.
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I was so proud of myself for not giving in and just feeding him.
Good for you!! That's the hardest time - the middle of the night!!!
Eloys - has it been working at all? Are your naps getting any longer?
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Sherry you are a stronger woman than me, I am sure that DH will be sent to PU/PD for the middle of the night :P I would cave for sure!
Let me know everything about it, what is your strategy, how many nights feeds do you have now?
Since Kai put on a whopping 300g this week :o we are not worried so much about feeding. We are working ourselves up to do some form of PU/PD shh pat so he falls asleep the last bit in the cot not in our arms. And them lets hope the nights get better, if not, then we will do some PU/PD at night (outside feed times) too. Just need to decide what feed times are allowed at night, he would like to feed 3-4 hourly still - 3 night feeds >:(
The little mite woke every 2 hours last night , I was not impressed! I do have to say though that this A time of 2 hrs 15 - 2 hrs 30 for the day is still working well (for past 4 days or so), he is now doing two longer naps (1.5 hours) and one shorter nap (45 mins). He is falling asleep pretty quickly in our arms because he is soo tired, lets hope that this doesn't backfire with OT in a few days! I have to wait a bit though, as he had his shots 4 days ago so he may have just been a sleepy little guy.
Wait and see!!!!
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Eloys - that is great news!!!! I think we are teething here. Showing a ton of signs and still hovering at 2h-2h15m A time, with resulting in good naps.
We still have two night feeds!!!!! He geniunely seems hungry though, and the thought had crossed my mind last night to not feed him at the 11 o'clock, but he was already extremely irritated that it had taken me as long as it had to get to his room and he was acting like he was starving.
so usually he wakes between 10:45-11:45 and then again anywhere from 3-5. So bettween 4 and 5 hourly. We got down to one night feed and then I went to 4 hourly during the day and then that feed came back :(
What has been working here is pick him up, and do whatever it takes to get him to stop crying. This can take a few minutes because he quickly realizes he's not getting fed (or in the case of naps, not let up to play) Usually it's loud shhhing, sometiems jiggling, walking around the room, etc. When he stops crying I cuddle him for just a few seconds. Then I put him down. He is usually crying before his head even hits the mattress. I put him all the way back down. Wait a few seconds, then pick him back up.
Shoot, he just woke.
BBL
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The little mite woke every 2 hours last night , I was not impressed! I do have to say though that this A time of 2 hrs 15 - 2 hrs 30 for the day is still working well (for past 4 days or so), he is now doing two longer naps (1.5 hours) and one shorter nap (45 mins). He is falling asleep pretty quickly in our arms because he is soo tired, lets hope that this doesn't backfire with OT in a few days!
Yay!!! That's great news!! I too hope it doesn't mean OT in a few days. Also remember if/when those long naps start to shrink, you might try adding 10-15 min to the atime but not until they shrink all the way back down to 45 or you might get OT. Woohoo!! Sounds like things are going great... weight gain and longer naps!!
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yay for the longer naps ;D
with the night feeds, when we had LOADS of nw we started with a do not feed before 3hrs, then when he had been on 4hrly feeding during the day for a few weeks we started not before 4hrs at night too. that still left us with 3 night feeds and he was showing zero signs of dropping one himself. so when he'd been on solids for 4 weeks with 3 meals a day we dropped the second night feed. so df around 10pm, then he would wake at 1 or 2am so DH would resettle and i'd feed again at the next waking. next waking moved a nudge earlier for a while (around 3am) but lately has been around 4/5am. when we get back from holidays we are going to tackle that second night feed as he isnt always really hungry in the morning and also wants to drop to 3 day feeds which i'm not prepared to do until he's on only one night feed. just worried that he will be
up for the day before 6am when we do this... we actually really need to tackle it now but are about to go on holidays.
pick a time when you and DH can commit to the PU/PD but definitely agree that you need to find the sweet spot for those A times first.
sherry, you've encouraged me to try dropping that night feed once we are back from hols as was thinking of waiting til DH is back from his work trip at the end of the month, hope i can stick it out too! (just hope he doesnt wake up ds1, sigh...) cant actually believe i am having to PU/PD to get rid of night feeds, ds1 did it all by himself by 3mths. health nurse said often littlies with dummies drop night feeds sooner as parents always offer the dummy at first waking and then feed when they wake again or dont resettle so the feed is always being pushed later and later. wonder if that is why we are having probs as our guys dont take dummies??does emory still not take one?
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thanks Kirry :)
Have a great trip. You guys have come so far with Nw's and everything! We stopped the solids, going to wait a few more weeks to start up again, the little mite is still feeding 3 times a night though. Best of luck with dropping that last feed!
The last few nights he has been waking around 4 time a night with 3 feedings.
We had one straight 45 min nap day this week ugh, today was looking the same then he pulled off a 3 hour nap for the afternoon nap :o I really think this "light" feed is working for us, it seems when ever I give an extra feed 20 mins or so before sleep more often than not he sleeps past 45 mins.
Kai still wants to feed 3-3.5 hourly in the day. We have had the added issue that I have been doing food challenges in my ED, so he has bene unsettled and taking smaller feeds, thus really needing the light feed. Just trying to work with that at the moment.
DH and I agreed that we would restart some form of PU/PD or shh pat within the next two weeks, basically as soon as he settles from this food challenge that I completed. I do agree with ther sweet spot. At the moment is being more like 2.5 hours by the time he's asleep, I think that we'll stick with that, of course put him down earlier if showing signs of tiredness.
His tired signs seem to be getting subtler now, and harder to read. He just has an overall "tireed look" he will stioll smile and play. I guess that's because he's not OT? Or because he's learngin to handle his new A time? Do you guys find the tired signs keep changing, or getting subtler?
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Eloys - I find Ellen's tired signs are harder to read. Also, she will act tired before her magic atime too but unless there are extenuating circumstances (like today she's sick) I push her as close to the magic time as possible b/c otherwise I invariably get a UT nap and it throws my whole day. Can't quite figure out why she'll rub her eyes or otherwise act tired before it's time, but it'll usually clear up quickly and she'll go back to playing. Not saying you should push your LO if it doesn't work for him, but that's what I've had to do with Ellen in order to keep naps on track.
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Kirry - You will have to be the one to give me encouragement when you get back. We are also still at 2 nights feeds :(
And Emory is constantly waking Lyle up. :( That is what is preventing me from trying to make him drop another feed because he kicks up much much more fuss if it is close to 4 hours since he has eaten.
Eloys - I do have to say. DH had to do PU/PD first, and had to gave a good few successes before Emory would even consider entertaining the idea from me first. He would not stop crying!!! Thus, making it really hard to do PU/PD. The first success I had were with nap time. That built my confidence up. What happens sometimes is I was going to put Emory down at nap time, and he would fuss and fuss. Whether OT or UT, depended on the time. So, in the "old days" if he fussed long enough, and then cried etc, when I went in I would pop in the swing.
So instead of doing that, if he fusses, now I do pu/pd, and it has been working really well.
Not, foul proof for us for sure though.
The other night, he woke at 10:45. Then he woke at 2:15. I was shocked at this. I really wasn't expecting it. So I sent DH in, and Emory was acting like DH was killing him. Seriously, the scream that was coming out of that child. It was horrible. And yes, he woke Lyle, and then yes. I went in and fed him. Ugggg. And then he still woke at 6 to eat. Not sure what was going on with that.
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Hugs Sherry Lynn!!!
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Thanks Megan :)
Shots today and very odd feeding, so curious to see how the night will go. I hope everybody had a great weekend.
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Hey Eloise!!
Haven't been on the 4-6 mo board... just wanted to see how things are going for you? Still better, I hope!!
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thanks Megan! Have you been busy? I haven't been on it in a while either, can't keep up!
NW's are now down to about 3 a night, no more of the OT ones, which he seemed to be having at 45 mins after sleep and before 10 pm. Now he wakes at those natural waking times 10-11, 1-2 and 4-5. He definantly can't put himself back to sleep, and I am still feeding him back to sleep at those times.
He has not beeing gaining weight well so I have just decided to feed him at those times. I am exhausted, but thinking that when he's on 3 solid meals a day I will look at cutting down the night feeds to 1 feed a night.
We are yet to sleep train either. We are still rocking him to sleep the last bit during the day ::) But one bit of good news is that he is mostly only mantra crying at bedtime now, and a couple of times he has fallen asleep independently. His A times are about 2.5 hours now he falls asleep pretty quickly, it just that mostly I am still getting in there and helping, where I probably shouldn't be. I do try and leave him for the mantra cry, (but not long enough) so a few times he has just fallen asleep ;D
We are going to sleep train soon!
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It's hard going backwards isn't it? It's good though that he's gone to sleep independently a few times. I feel like we are going backwards too. I haven't got J down for a nap without help for the past two days :( And then naps have been AWFUL. I'm hoping that it's just related to getting rid of the swaddle - I just can't keep him in it - he just busts out immediately and rolls around ::)
Are all your A times 2.5hours? Are you still doing a catnap? Are you still getting good naps? I asked about A times on the BC but only got one reply.
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Still getting really good naps 2 x 2.5 hours naps today :o Usually have a cat nap though with one of those first naps being shorter. I keep the cat nap under 20 mins or else he fights bedtime.
He's doing about 2.5 - 2.75 hours A time. I think 2.5 hours is the "sweet" time though.
I jsut can;t stop assisting him to sleep, he just calls out to me it seems forever, as soon as he hears the door open - he stops crying and makes noises like he's grateful and smiling :P I really shouldn;t be going in, but I do, EVERY time!
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Lol I think I probably would too!! I'm a sucker. The only reason I don't is b/c she's just always been really good at going down by herself - I didn't do anything to make it happen, I consider it just good luck. :) Glad things are still going well for you!!
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Are you still starting to get him down at 2h15m, and asleep by 2.5? That is great news on the naps!!!!
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its actually more like getting him down at 2hrs 30 and asleep by 2 hrs 45 mins. This morning he woke at 5am, and i tried to put him down at 7:30am - he fought like a monkey and asleep at 8am and only for 45 mins. This afternoon I waited till he was really tired so put him down after 3 hours A time, he went to sleep peacefully on his own for 2 hrs 10 mins!!! :o :o
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wow!
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That is awesome. Way to go mommy and Kai.
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some great naps there elo, that's great!
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and then last night he went to sleep on his own! ;D :o ;) :D ::) :P :) :D and only woke once for a feed, although up for the day at 5:15am.
Can I qualify that though, each time, I gave him a breastfeed immediately before, then sung him a song, then put him down. I think he loves the feed just before.
So I thought we were on a roll, but sadly today he wouldn't self settle to sleep for his naps or for bed, He was only mantra crying, one nap I let him go on and on for 20 mins... he was just whinging, stopping and starting but in the end i gave up and held him, he fell instantly asleep. Tonight he was pretty feral and cried hard, I had to go to him over 5 times over 25 mins. I think the longer A times must have been a bit much (closer to 2 hrs 45 mins and one 3 hrs today).
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Sorry to hear that Elo - I wanted to warn you about the long A times and OT catching up. But I didn't wanted to stick my nose in it. I hope you get back on track soon.
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ok I need to get this thread going again. We are still stuck with 2-3 NW's a night, and every 3 days getting at least one of the NW's a long one. I am soooooo tired, 6 months of waking 2-5 times a night is doing my head in! I am a permanent grouch.
Last night, the third time he woke it was only 2.5 hours after the last feed so I sent DH to resettle after he had mantra cried about 10 mins. As soon as DH came to resettle Ds2 cried hard and long arching his back the whole time in protest as if to say "where's my feed!' I relented and fed him, then he decided to chat to himself for another 30 mins, then start crying hard again, after 5 mins of him crying pretty hard I went down to his room and fed him again where he finally fell asleep, by this time it was 4am (and he had been up and hour and so had we) and we were sooo tired and not knowing what we were doing. What a mess.
This is his approx routine:
wake 6:30am
Feed: 7:00am
Top up 8:50am
Sleep 9:30am - 11:30am
Wake 11:30am
Feed 11:30am
Solids 12:30pm
Sleep 2:30pm - 4:00pm
Wake 4:00pm
Feed 4:30pm
Solids 5:30pm
Feed 7:00pm
Bed 7pm
Feed approx 10:30pm - 11:00pm long feed, hungry
Feed approx 1:00am - 2:00am snack feed
Feed: approx 3:30am - 4:00am long feed, hungry
This is his first week of solids, he is not yet on protein and taking 4 teaspoons.
I want to get serious about this NW'ing now and do something drastic but i don't know what? I am soo worried that Ds1 will wake with all the crying... I know that Ds2 won't take well to being resettled at all.
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Hey Eloise! Sorry about the NW - it's so wearying!!
There are two things I would try. Well three. First, I'd probably cut one of his naps by 15 min. (I'd probably try the morning one since it's the longest, but you know your LO best) Yes I know, you just got them long and beautiful. But he's getting 3.5 hours of sleep a day and while that's not bad by itself, the NW might indicate it's too much for him specifically. Especially since the NWs are sometimes long and he's just laying in there chatting away. If it doesn't make a difference after 3 days, I'd probably cut another 15 off for 3 days just to see. If it still didn't make a difference, then I might let him have that sleep time back.
The second thing I would try right away even if you decide not to cap his naps is to absolutely stop going to him if he's chatting or mantra crying. The *only* time I'd go in was if he starts giving you the "I need you NOW!!!" cry. For more than 15 seconds too (Ellen will cry like that for a few seconds and then suddenly stop). Ellen was waking at 4ish for the longest time and I kept going to her and she just kept on waking. When I finally stopped going in, she eventually stopped waking (it took at least a week or so). And I know that if I go in when she doesn't really need me I just make it worse and then we have all out crying unless i apop whereas if I'd have just let her sort it out herself, she'd have fallen asleep on her own.
I'd work on one NW at a time. So pick the one where he's not hungry and just doing mantra cries. Don't go in, don't go in, don't go in. It's hard - especially when he's keeping you up, but you'll only reinforce his waking habit. And if he's going to keep you up for an hour, better you be in bed awake than up trying to soothe him. I'm not telling you to let him CIO - only if it's a mantra cry, let him do it as long as he needs to til either he falls back to sleep or starts crying for real. Once that's taken care of and he either stops waking or he consistently puts himself back to sleep, then tackle the another feeding. So if he wakes and puts himself back to sleep and then wakes in another few hours and you know he's hungry, then get up and feed him. But pick one of those hunger feeds and shorten his feeding time by 1 minute (you're BF, right?) for 3 nights. Don't let him feed longer, even if he's still awake, just put him back in his crib and let him chatter or mantra cry til he falls back to sleep. Or even hold him a bit if you have to, but don't let him feed longer than that. After 3 nights, cut off another minute of time from his BF. Then after 3 nights, another min and so on. He will start eating more during the day to compensate. This is how I weaned Ellen's DF and she now takes a whopping 7-8 ounces each bottle whereas before I struggled to get her to take 5.
I hope some of these suggestions help... good luck!!
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Megan, thanks for your reply. You talk such sense. DH and I have been discussing leaving him longer at night to see where that gets us (for when he wakes outside feed times). I do lik the idea of shortenign his feeds, we will have to prepare for battle though when he is expected to fall back asleep bu himself (instead of falling asleep on the boob at night).
I take comfort from the fact that you were able to get her to eat more at day and wean her night feeds successfully. I am already seeing that his daytime feeding is affected by the big night feeds. What age did you do this?
One thing that bugs me is this - when he wakes say 2.5 hours after the last feed- we know hes not really hungry - we leave him to mantra cry and eventually he escalates to the i need you cry, we go in he thinks hes going to get a feed- he doesn't then its mayhem. Aren't we sending a message - when you wake you don't automatically get a feed. But then at other times... he wakes he gets a feed. Isn't that confusing for them? So far, I have inadvertently taught him to cry and cry and so he gets a feed.
Having a tough few days, - he is OT now, and also reacting to pears (day 3 of pears). I think the A time jump has been too much too soon, and I ignored his tired signs and we've had busted naps - so that his A time became 4 hours this mornign and yesterday morning. Last night he woke 3 times before 10:30pm clearly tired and not wanting a feed, just freaking out and not knowing how to get back to sleep. Gave him a cat nap today, lets see how tonight goes, so far so good, its 11pm on no waking yet.
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Ugh. OT is so awful, isn't it? Ellen was OT yesterday (my fault) and I apopped away to almost no avail. I'm sorry you've been having such a rough few days! I hope you get back on track very soon!
I started weaning her DF at 7 months-ish, but I think it would probably have worked at 6 mo too, I think the key with a full on feeding is to just do it gradually. As far as the other NW... that might take a different tactic. I was just re-reading BWSAYP and she says to try W2S about an hour before the habitual NW for at least 3 nights. I tried W2S a few times with Ellen at night and it seemed to work way better at night than for naps. It might be worth a shot for you? If that doesn't work, Tracy says use pu/pd. I'm not so sure that's the first thing I personally would try though. If he goes from mantra to real cry, there's a few things that i might try before pu/pd. First, does he take a paci? I'm assuming no. Also, what does he do at this time, just snack and then go right back to sleep? You could try the same tactic as with the full feeds and just let him nurse for decreasing number of minutes for 3 nights at a time until he's down to one or two min and then just pick him up for a few min and then finally not pick him up at all. He might cry a bit when you finally switch from 1 min to none, but he'll be more used to not nursing for such a long time at this time that it'll probably be an easier transition. I know when I was weaning DF, the first few nights if I stopped her bottle after 2oz she would start whimpering, but by the time we worked our way down to 2 oz, she was totally fine with it.
Or have you ever read Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution? She has some method for weaning them from bf in the family bed that goes something like pu/pd only it's latch on/take off... but you'd probably have to read it for the specifics.
And re: your question. It sounds to me that he's waking up and wanting to nurse for comfort. So that's why it's different when he wakes at this time rather than when he wakes and he's really hungry. When he needs comfort during the day, I'm assuming you don't always nurse him to comfort him... it can be the same at night to where if you know what he needs is comfort instead of food, you don't have to nurse him for this. I mean, it will be an adjustment for him and he probably won't like it, but once you've made the change, then you'll know if he wakes less than 4 hours from last feed you don't have to nurse him to get him back to sleep. But if he wakes 4 hours or more from last feed, you need to feed him - at least for now - b/c he's getting a significant number of calories at night instead of day. And eventually you'll gradually change that too so that *any* time he wakes during the night you won't need to feed him. Does that make sense? That's how I see it anyway. But I do think you're right about sending mixed signals... well, only to the extent that during that specific NW you first say no and then eventually give in and nurse him. I guess you could also do it that way - just cold turkey cut out that feed and apop him back to sleep even if it took hours. You'd have to have some steely resolve for that though and if you're going to do it that way, you might as well just do it right and do pu/pd instead of apop. I think if it were me I'd probably try the decreasing minutes first though...
Good luck getting out of OT, I hope your days get better!!!
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Thanks Megan :) No paci. Yes I would like to try the gradual minute by minute approach. I do have the pantely book, will have to take another look. I certainly don;t have an steely resolve... more like melt like butter at the sound of a little cry ::)
Well I am feeling that things are WAAAAAAY out of control. I thoguht he was OT but now I am not sure.
The good news is that last 2 nights he has woken once at 1am then at 5am, very hungry but awake for the day again! SO EW's are still back but NW is better.
Anyway now for the bad bad out of control news. I apologies in advacnce fo rthe verbage, got to get this out of my syste,. This morning I kept him up from 5am - 8am. He was whinging at 7:30am for bed, but it was 8am till I put him down. He proceeded to cry and cry pretty quickly to I'm very tired cry frantic, incolsolable cry. He didn't want to be held, he was arching his back in my arms, he didn;t want a feed, he was cry and crying. I kept going to him every few mins but it was no use I was no help at all. It took 40 mins to fall asleep. Poor Ds1 watched two shows on TV whilst this was going on I really hate doing that.
Then for the afternoon nap at the 3 hour A time mark he was happy as a lark not looking one bit tired. He had been out in the pram nearly all that time, I took Ds2 out for a walk - I need exercise. He had a brief play on the matt at the park. Maybe because he didn't have much exercise himself? Anyway, he just cried mantra cry on and off for 30 mins. I went in a few times, he just smiled and laughed! This went on till the 4 hour mark. At the 4 hour mark he was crying pretty hard but not closing his eyes or looking tired. He would be wide awake when I picked him up trying to communicate with me. If I cradled him he would fight and arch his ack in protest.
I didn't know what to at the 4 hour mark, so I got him up for 10 mins or so - he just played happily under his mobile. After 15 mins I thought - this has gone on too long! Even though he looked happy I put him to bed. Poor Ds1 had interrupted story time for 1 hour during all this.
Another 45 mins later of hard crying and rejecting being in my arms, rejecting a feed, but screaming when I put him down, finally he accepted the boob and fell asleep on the boob. Obviously I was desperate. So that was a 2.5 hour saga, the poor bugger had been up for 5.5 hours, and Ds1 was crying for the last 20 mins too. he had been in bed trying to get to sleep for about 1.5 hours but couldn't because he could hear the baby over his white noise, and I was so short with himn he was crying because he felt ignored and neglected.
I am just trying to forget about it now.... I have absolutely no idea how i got into that mess. That was so stressful and so wierd.
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Eloise, I'm so sorry!! That sounds like such an incredibly awful day!!
It sounds like OT to me too. How long ago did you go up to 3 hours? Maybe you could try going back down to 245? Has anything else changed or been different? Or maybe it's not OT and he's teething or it's the pears or something?
What were the few days leading up to that like?
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huge hugs elo :-* good idea to look at activity levels to determine A time. k is doing 3hr20 to 3hr30 first A time but isnt as active then (sits with us for breaky, sits outside while H plays, etc), whereas second A time is WAY more active as that's when H naps so we do sitting practice, standing, jumping, rolling, etc etc etc and he is super tired after this time and usually needs to be asleep by 3hrs, 3hr10 max.
on night feeds, megan has given you fab advice. no idea of the best approach but will just share what we did. once K was on 3 meals a day of 1tbs we decided to drop one of his 3 night feeds (was doing 10.15pm df, 2/3am and 5/6am), we ditched the 1/2am one and decided i wouldnt feed before 4am (30mins earlier max). after three nights he was doing great, regression on the 7th night. to avoid confusion, we went with the approach that if i was going to feed, we got him up for feed straight away. if it wasnt time yet then we went in to resettle and didnt feed til he had fallen asleep (sometimes that feed was only 20mins but he had settled to sleep so would then feed).
we are now dropping the second night feed, showed zero signs of doing it on his own ::). usually fed for 20mins, have been cutting down 2mins (1min each side) each night, am now due for 6mins tonight. not sure whether to go lower than that or not tho as feel it will be bit of a tease to only let him on for a super short time :-\
hope you had a bitter day today :-*
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Hey Eloys - sorry things have been so rough. I hope you have a better day.
We still have two feeds here. Currently I am sticking with the not feeding before 4 hours. However, I am getting ready to start trying to wean the 11-1 feed. Like K Emory is having his longest feeds of the day at night. And it is effecting the first feed of the day. I even waited to feed him this morning (that worked the other day) and he was still bobbing on and off, looking all around and just took a crap feed in general.
Kirry - I was going to share with you. I was still doing the DF with Lyle when he was showing signs of wanting to drop the 11 feed and I asked about it on the BF board and they said not to drop it until I was done dropping the DF. After I dropped the DF it was only a few weeks until he did infact drop the 11 feed. By then we were on bottles though, so it was really easy to monitor the ounces. Sometimes BFing is such a pain with all this stuff.
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thanks for sharing sherry. i'd love to get by with offering just a snack before first nap, just a shame this cant be a cheese or yoghurt ::) as otherwise he will be getting a bottle before each nap... at the moment he is quite happy to have milk at 7.30am and wait 5/5.5hrs for his next one.
elo, how are you doing hun?
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better :)
thanks read your replies advice.
Just been taking it one sleep at a time. Trying not to keep him up, yet trying not to have UT either. Yesterday had 2 x 2 hour naps, with about 20 mins of crying before each so quite irritable. Last night night woke 3 times and at 4am for an hour though, chatting. Thankfully after I fed him he chatted off to sleep at 5am. I am thinking too much day sleep then??
Today he did 3 hour and 2.75 A times with 2 x 2 hour naps again. If he has long NW's again, I guess it really is too much day sleep.
He also had his shots on Tues so was pretty irritable today. He has another rash around his mouth and cheeks, his skin is so sensitive. It seems that ANY food that gets on there causes a rash.
Sherry i haven't been to the PO yet, sorry. Will let you know when I get there.
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is he giving clear tired signs? any chance that he is protesting cos UT for the nap? what's his average day look like? (i'm wondering if it's more timing of naps rather than total nap length)
hugs hun, shots always meant crappy sleep for a few days here. night and day.
the rash, no sign of teeth?
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Been watching him for tired signs afresh. I think I was correct today with them as he went down without much drama, nice yawns in his room and protesting in a nice tired way when being wrapped. Although I fed directly before each nap I was a bit too traumatised frm the last 2 days, the feed always helps. ::) I have to admit he was really tired frmo lunch onward today with red eyes prob from the shots and the NW's.
No signs of teeth. I think his skin is sooooo sensitive. He has red all round his mouth and off to the sides up his cheeks a bit. Exactly where his food goes. It will be gone in the morning, then it flares by the afternoon nap after lunch. The red seems to be in diif spots every day. I am only using the softest of softest material to wipe his face since tonight, see if it makes a diff tomorrow :P
Feeds 11pm & 1am (he was hot at 1am didn't feed much, I peeled some layers off him)
(NW 4-5am chatting & feed at 4:45am)
NW 6:30am
Feed 8am (wasn't hungry until then due to all the night feeds)
Solids 9am (rice cereal w milk)
Top up 9:30am
Sleep 9:30am
Wake 11:15am
Feed 12:00pm
Solids 1:30pm swede & potato
Top up 2:00pm
Sleep 2:00pm
Wake 4pm
Feed 4:30pm (didn't want much)
Dinner 5;30pm (potato)
Feed 6pm
Top up 7pm (other side)
Sleep 7pm
NW 11:40 Feed
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Heck, I'd definitely top up if that helps him sleep!! Esp since that gets more calories in during the day and thus less at night!! I'm so glad yesterday went so well, what great naps!!!
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Eloys - dont' worry about the PO :)
When you top up, he's not sleeping, right? But, it going to sleep soon after that? I just noticed that the top up time and sleep time are exactly the same, so I was thinking...hmmmm.... Sleep would be a little after, right?
We are in a mess here. And I think I'm just going to have to power through A time extensions, even with teething. We are doing the UT then OT dance here, and I'm so tired of it.
Kirry - I was thinking of posting this kind of question on the EASY board, but did you notice with some LOs that they just had to keep extending to finally get better naps. I've tried so many different increases and nothing seems to work.
If I stick to about 2h-2h5m (so asleep at around 2h15m) he takes great naps. Any increase and he takes 50-1h120m naps :( But then every couple of days I get an UT 35min nap.
The other day I had him down at 2h15m and I had to wake him up at almost 2 hours to go out. :(
Oh, we are also not having any long night wakings, or early wakings, so I would say we don't need to worry about upping A time, but I know that's just not the case because he is refusing a third nap almost every day, so then either has a super early bedtime, or goes to bed OT. And then that also makes it hard to be a stickler about night feeds.
Kirry - you are down to 2 night feeds? DF +1? How have the last few days gone with gradual weaning?
I think we are going to have to do cold turkey, and it's going to be very hard. He was screaming and screaming at me last night, simply because I didn't whip out the second boob fast enough, sheesh :( Then ate very little this morning. So then starving by 3 hours. So we are just in a huge mess.
I really thought that since he is such a good sleeper that moving A times with him wouldn't be so hard. Hopefully he'll just make a big A time jump again like he did to get to 2 hours.
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Do you guys have coconut yogurt over there? I have Emory some for the first time last night and he loved it.
I was gone, so I couldn't give him the bedtime feed and DH gave him that and some avocado.
However, he went to bed OT (no catnap) and he woke 3 times last night, and I fed him each time :(
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I should clarify - coconut milk yogurt. :)
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I just wanted to share some successes we've had last night and today.
The last few days have been really rough because the second nap has been very short, with him still refusing the catnap.
So... I've come to the point where I have to do SOMETHING!!!!
I am pretty sure feedings at night are impacting a lot. So DH and I talked about it, and we are going to stick to one night feeding.
It came about last night well.... because he kept waking before the 4 hour rule. No, wait, that's not true for the first one.
He fed at 5:45pm.
Woke at 9:45. I told DH I was willing to go in if he wanted, because tech it was 4 hours and he said he would try to settle him. I put ear plugs in and told him to come get me if he needed me.
He said he was easy to settle.
He woke at 1ish and I fed.
He woke at 4ish. (only 3 hours) so again DH went in and did pu/pd.
He woke for the day at 6:40.
I feed him and he was not starving. So that showed me that he really doesn't need the night feeds, hes' doing it more for comfort.
So I stuck to normal A time for the first nap today.
Asleep at 2h15m.
He slept 1h20ish min.
Yesterday I tried upping the A time again. I did in bed at 2h15m. And he had a really rough time, I ended up having to AP him.
He slept 40 min :(
So, normally I would just go back to the old A time. And I'm sure he probably would have slept 1.5 or so for the afternoon.... however.... that is getting us NO WHERE!!!!
So, instead, I put him down at 2h25m. It still took him about 20 min to go to bed. (this is 10min longer than normal)
He also did wake at 40 min, but he was tired enough to go back to sleep on his own.
So this is great!!!
I also think, he would have slept longer, but I think he was hungry. It had been 4 hours by that point and he took a really really good feed.
So I was wondering what you guys thought I should do about that. ???
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Yay for the successes Sherry Lynn!! That means you're on the right track even if you get a few regressions in there somewhere! YAY!!
As for waking hungry from naps - when I was trying to get Ellen on her schedule, I'd sometimes feed her to get her to resettle, esp if it had been a long time since her last feeding. I figure that sometimes sleep is more important that the eating schedule and I myself have trouble settling if I'm hungry, so I have a hard time doing sleep training if I think she's hungry. Now that she's (finally!) eating solids, I just try to feed her as much solids as I can before her naps to prevent EW from naps. Does Emory eat much solids yet? Also remember that if you cut out some night feedings, he'll probably start eating a lot more during the day so you might have to feed him more often for a while to adjust your supply.
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sherry, we have done the last two nights with no early morning feed. he is FINE! settles pretty quickly, i have had to pick him up for a quick cuddle tho whereas most nw i can just put a hand on him and pat him a bit. will give one more night of picking him up and then i'll try to settle him in his cot. that sounds great with your night feeds, well done!!
hmmm now the napping... if he is mostly refusing the catnap anyway, then maybe just work on extending that second A time for now? and maybe the answer is to keep him up much more than you normally would so he is OT but tired enuf to be resettled, not OT but refuse extending?? (i would never normally recommend that BUT i know you well enuf that you would know when to quit with it ;) ). so instead of shooting for an A time that gives a good nap, shoot for a time that he will prob wake but you can resettle him. do you have much luck resettling?
as for the first nap, seems he really likes that early sleep. if he is so sensitive to this time that 5min increases arent working then maybe you have to do something crazy like increase in 1 min amounts every 1 or 2 days or so? small enuf for him to hopefully not notice the extra A time but would get you extending it by 15mins in 2 to 3 weeks? have you thought about how you want to do the 2-1 switch this time?
will look for coconut yoghurt too!
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Thanks Megan :) Do you do the solids one hour after BF? He is a wonderful solids eater. So I might have to play around with that a little.
Kirry - so are you sticking with the DF and then going to work on dropping that? Sometimes I really wise we would have persisted with the bottle feeding. I would have loved to do it the way you are. But, neither of my LO would take the BF for the dream feed. Well, and when I tried with Emory reflux was still bad so it ended in a nightmare. Every time I try to get him to take a bottle he acts like I'm trying to kill him, and then he behaves the same way for the next feeding. I think because I use a nipple shield, so he feels the plastic and just freaks :( oh well.
Resettling is a no go here. :( Only the swing will work for that, and that's only about 50% of the time.
He will either resettle on his own, or not at all. Today though, DH and I talked about it and if he woke at the 40 min mark for the second nap we were going to try pu/pd, or pat/sh. He seems to respond better to pu/pd. But, we've never tried it much during the day.
Funny enough (must be the EASY minds thinking a like) I have been thinking about how I would like to do the transition. I actually called Lyle's school today to confirm starting and ending times as I was thinking about this.
Lyle is starting Pre-k next month. 5 days a week, 3 hours a day. Soooo..... Emory really is going to have to do the short AM long PM. I thought about it today and as long as I don't start getting EWs then I'm just not going to stress too too much about that super short A time. But, I like your idea of a min or two at a time. Oh, I also thought... if he is just going to keep taking 1h10m naps anyways then I'll push it out, if I can get a good PM nap. The PM naps have just been so hit or miss that I have been reluctant to mess with the morning one too much.
I know I can do asleep at 2h20m and still get a 1h10m nap so after a few days I'll work on that.
This will be Lyle's School routine Mon-Fri 8-11.
It is 15 min away. So I figure we will leave no later than 7:40
Emory and I back home 8:15ish
Leave the house to pick him up 10:40 (so he will have to be up a tad before this)
Back home 11:20ish
So, I can't really every get a super long nap in the AM 7 days a week.
So I'll have to just push out the A time enough to keep EWs at bay.
With all the early bedtimes I think wake up might be creeping up a bit, but.... before that I had noticed that Emory seems to sit at a natural wake up time of about 7:20.
So, that already puts us at
Asleep 9:30ish.
And he'll already have to be back up at 10:35ish.
So, I'll either have to start waking him early, or just except an hour nap there.
What do you think?
Eloys - how are things going with the teething.
The second top tooth still hasn't popped through here.
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No, if I do it that close to her bottle, she won't take hardly anything. I have to wait at least two hours so I'm doing it about an hour before she goes down (her atime is about 3) but sometimes if we are out and about and I get home right before nap, I'll feed her first so that she won't be hungry for her nap. So sometimes it's up to 2:45 or so after her bottle.
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sherry, with that timing with school runs, i'd be inclined to stick to a 9 to 9.30am nap window for first nap. it may naturally shorten a little earlier than you'd like but i cant see any other way around that. other thought for getting better second nap is to shorten his first one (eeek! - dont know if i'd be game enuf myself), longer second nap and then short catnap, so same total sleep in day as two good naps. and i'd use nothing but the swing for the third nap. may be hard to get him on that if he is already resisting 3rd nap regularly tho :-\ this works for us when we have playgroup or outings on weekends (he actually often does a 2 hr nap for his second one instead so dont need the third). otherwise yeah, i'd go with 2hr20 second A time, 2hr21, 2hr22 etc etc. as you said if he is only going to have two naps in a day well you may as well work on pushing it out. maybe try something a bf top up before second nap (or split feed one side before and other after nap) or maybe give him a coconut yoghurt or something to hold him out and see if that helps him nap any longer. yes we are keeping df for now, will give it a couple of weeks and then start to drop it.
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Yeah, I was thinking about cutting the first nap a little more, to see if I get a longer second nap. Reread part of GF this morning and, of course, that's what she recommends. I also keep thinking about the one little line in BWSAYP were she talks about most nine month olds being on a 45min morning nap.
So what is your routine looking like these days Kirry?
Megan - I think I might try moving out solids a little.
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typical day here:
6.30am wake and meds
7am bottle
8am breaky
9.45 cracker and water
10 - 12 nap
12 bottle
1 lunch
3 to 4.15 nap (often only doing an hour here but i wake by 4.15 atm to preserve bedtime, was 4.30pm last week but he was taking a while to fall asleep)
4.15 bottle
5.30 dinner
6 snack (rice cake, rice stick or something with our dinner)
6.20 meds and upstairs for bath, massage, pjs etc
6.50 bottle, story
7pm in bed
10.15 df
sherry, if you are shortening the am nap then i'd keep offering it as early as you can get away with (ie. as early as you can without causing ew) so that you can fit a nap into that time before you have to pick up lyle for as long as possible. emory isnt much of a sleeper while out and about is he?
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Thanks Kirry :) That routine looks really good.
Can you believe that that second nap is only an hour, already!!!!! Things were know where like this with Lyle and Hunter. (and Jarrah too, if you're still reading Elo :)
Nope, he's not a good napper out and about. I wish he was because then in a few months I could just do a nap in the car while running errands or something. He's like Lyle and takes FOREVER to fall asleep in the car, if he does.
We had a great day today. Only thing is he was was OT by bedtime. I did the same A time. The only thing I can think of is sleep begets sleep and having two slight extensions in A time today caused him to be a little more tired.
We had one waking already, but he put himself back to sleep. HURRAY!!!
I'm going to type the routine, mostly because I need to organize my notes for my journal anyways. :)
I had a thought. He's night sleep is really long, often. But, this is with NWings. So I guess that effects naps as well. ???
I saw somebody do this on the BC board, so I'll do it. They put the time the LO is in bed in ( ) then the time they fell asleep outside of them.
Bed last night: Bed 5:46
asleep 6:05ish (seriously!!!!)
Eat 10:56
Cried out 2:00ish, put himself back to sleep. YEY!!
Cried out 4:26 Fed one side at 4:56am. He was not impressed with feeding on one side only. I sent DH in to do pat/sh :P
Stir 6:36 (he always stirs here, sometimes he wakes for the day, especially if the feed was a long time ago. (that's why I fed one side at 5ish :P )
7:37 wake for the day
E 8:00
Solids 9:00
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Hit tab and it posted, sorry :)
7:37 wake for the day
E 8:00 Solids 9:00
A (2h7m, asleep @ A time of 2h15m)
S (9:44) 9:52-11:27
E 12ish Solids 1ish
A (2h20m, 2h30ish)
S (1:47) 2:00ish - 3:37
E 3:40ish Solids 5:30ish
A
E 6:35
S (6:50) Very settled at 6:56, but I don't think he was a sleep until slightly after 7.
Cry out 7:56
So 2x1h35m naps today!!!!
I've been feeding at 3 hours A time after second nap and then putting into bed. I might start trying to have him in bed at 3 hours A time as the last few days this does seem to be too much as the other A times are extending, makes sense, he's more tired now.
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Hi :)
Muddling through a bit here. Absolutely exhausted from Ew's and DH keeps going out to bucks nights, we have three weddings coming up - which is really stressing me out as to how I will feed Kai and still attend etc.
Second bottom tooth is one corner through, he is demanding breast feeds left right and centre and I'm letting him, he's very grouchy. He's eating a little more solids now. He is very very good at his finger foods but hopeless with feeding mush off a spoon, he still wants to suck it off (and hold it all himself) and not open his mouth very much.
He's EW again, but summer time just started so that fixes it over night ;) Still NW'ing 2 to 3 times. I am about to start reducing the minutes of all other feeds other than the dream feed. He's been on chicken two days so I have some confidence to start reducing the night milk intake.
Good to read what you guys are doing so I know what I've got coming next ;)
Kirry I admire how you are so organised wuith your routine and have tackled each issue one by one sucessfully. So only one night feed then? :o
What is this cracker snack you have found?
Sherry: wonderful news about your great day, you are doing a fantastic job! You'll get to where you want to be in no time :)
Megan: I am doing that too... trying to have some sort of food before the nap (feed or solids) IN the past few days I put him down without a feed or solids close to nap time and he only did 45 mins naps. This happened twice.
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Today is horrid, horrid, horrid.
He woke at 1:30ish for a feed. Took a good feed.
Woke at 4:45. I was going to feed but I had to use the restroom so I asked DH to go in, and he actually got him back to seelp.
Well he woke at 5:45 :( So DH tried it again and Emory lost his mind, so DH came to get me, but then Emory got quite and looked like he was going to go to sleep.
Oh well....
Both boys are having a very very rough day.
First nap fine here. But second A time he was grouchy, but I kept him up. Then he was screaming and screaming. I ended up putting him in the swing because I was trying to get Lyle down as well.
Guess the new A time was just too much today.
Not expecting a good second nap. But, I'll up the A time and see if I can get a catnap out of him.
Eloys I Hope that tooth comes through quickly for you.
How are you going about feeding the chicken?
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hugs girls, hope you get some better nights very soon, those PITA teeth!
elo, cracker is just a rice cake (unfortunately not something exciting ::) i'm wondering what i could make with pears, gluten free flours and maybe quinoa flakes instead of oats... i'm such a recipe person tho so will take a LOT of trial and error.
sherry, some good naps on that day you posted. i'm sure you are aware of this, but just watch out for too many early bedtimes in a row as you dont want to reset his morning wake up time :-* k has been eating chicken steamed, then puree with a little water. have just progressed to small chopped pieces last night and he LOVED it.
well we have been on one night feed for a week (only wish that meant one nw...) BUT both my boys STTN last night til 7.15am ;D too bad i was up twice tho and awake from 6am ::)
thinking of you both :-*
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thinking of you too Sherry and all of Emorys teeth and the poor darling up every hour! You weren't to know that he was teething! Heck I didn't see Kais first tooth until the whole surface was through... whilst the poor thing was miserable for days!
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Thanks Elo :)
We have 7 now. So we should be good for awhile as soon as the 8th comes through.
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well I tired to cut down the minutes that he feeds at the first feed (11pm) and it backfired so badly! He woke and cried on and off for 1 hr 40 mins, we kept going in and getting him back to sleep, then he would wake a second later crying again. He was defo quite unsettled, I am wondering if the kaffir lime leaf is still causing trouble - he ate one two days ago (he's intolerant to them) or whether it was the teeth - but both surfaces are fully through. We gave meds anyway but it made no difference.
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when does he typically feed at night now?
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so typically hes feeding between 11-12pm for a feed lasting about 7 mins and then waking about 4:00 - 4:30am for a very big long feed lasting about 15-20 mins, the last 10 mins would be slow comfort sucking to fall back asleep. I usually let him do that as I am so tried I don't want to hear him cry!
During the day his feeds are about 5 mins of very fast efficient swallowing.
Every few nights we get an additional waking somewhere between those two feeds. He wakes around 6-6:30am.
I have a theory that he he is getting too much day sleep and thus having long NW's cause he has a sleep debt. He averages about 3 .5 hours day sleep in total so I have started trying to cut his naps to 2 x 1.5 hours. Yesterday he did 1 x 2 hour nap then 1 x 45 mins, but still had the long NW'ing.
Going to try again tonight and see what happens, and keep limiting those day sleeps and see where we get in a few days.
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hmmm well i agree to start reducing that first feed like you have been then if that's the shortest. all you can do is stick with it for a few nights and you 'should' notice improvement in his settling time after 3 nights.
the long waking could def be related to nap length. i've just started capping kingston's second nap to 1hr or awake by 5.15pm (8pm bedtime now dst has started). he usually has 3hrs total day sleep. only caution i'd mention around capping naps is i wouldnt cap both of them if he normally does a 2hr one. whichever nap is typically the longer one i personally would hang onto (and shorten only if going over 2hrs), and shorten the other one (as this will put you in a better position when doing the 2to1 nap switch).
so hard when there is always something else at play (teeth, intolerances, etc) isnt it!
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only caution i'd mention around capping naps is i wouldnt cap both of them if he normally does a 2hr one. whichever nap is typically the longer one i personally would hang onto (and shorten only if going over 2hrs), and shorten the other one (as this will put you in a better position when doing the 2to1 nap switch).
I agree. I think Ellen is ready to start her 2-1 transition and so far I have been unable to get anywhere in straightening out her naps... I tried to extend her morning atime to get a longer nap and then cap her 2nd nap, but every time I try I get an OT nap. I think I'm going to have to start capping her second nap b/c she's been having tons of NW. Last night I had a nightmare 2hour marathon. Yuck.
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Since you only had 2h45m of sleep yesterday, I'm wouldn't guess too much sleep. I would guess pain, or maybe not enough A time before bed, or too much.
I also agree with Kirry about keeping the first nap at 2 hours, if that's what he usually likes, which ever one is currently the longest. Just a caution make sure to keep an eye on the last A time if you cut the second nap, because you might start getting OT wakings.
We are still at two feeds here. I'm just trying to be at peace with it right now. Maybe once he's done teething we will deal with it again. We are getting lots of early evening night wakings again because the second A time is still too long. We just do pu/pd until it has been 4 hours since last feed.
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Hey girls.
Just realised I never replied to you, although I read and pondered your replies at the time with thanks :)
So it seems that more often than not, it is just two night feeds now and maybe one random waking with a resettle every other day. So that is alot better than a moth ago when I started this thread. It doesn't really feel like much progress, I had higher expectations, but one mishap has lead to another and now we are a month down the track with not much sorted out here!
K is 7 months old tomorrow, my baby is growing up :o This is the month that he will be 'cut back' to one night feed, there is nothing that can hold us back except some bad teething. It is very hard to know what is teething and what is not at the moment. Do you find that? He seems generally a grumpy old grouch and wants ot be carried and not happy on his tummy, very tired and refluxing after 2 hours A time. He's not dribbling or chewing though.
The long NW'ing I think was more related to teeth than too much day sleep. Keeping my eye on the day sleep thing though.
We haven't had a long NW for 3 nights and today he had more day sleep than usual 2.5 hours and 1 hour naps. I will laugh if I have to report in that we had a long NW!!!!
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How'd it go?
So, we are getting major morning nap resistance here. He has discovered the joy of messing around in his crib. I'm sure this is due to needing an increase in A times. Our nights are also proof of that. BUT.... his nights were so crappy that he is still tired in the morning.
Yesterday morning he was a wreck. Yawning and carrying on about 1.5 hours after being up. So I put him down at normal time, even though I was going to keep him up.
Then it took me an hour or so to get him down. He fell asleep eating at the breast, which he hasn't done in months. Even when really OT, at bedtime, etc.
So I was afraid to increase the PM A time, and again, it took me about an hour to get him down :( Then he only slept 30 min.
Last night was better, he went 6 hours before feeding, which he hasn't done in so long.
So, kirry I need your advice.
I don't know if you will get this in time.
But, last night was like this:
30 min nap. ending at 3:07. In bed 6:05 again, it took an hour to get him down. Clearly, ot, but also just messing around in the crib, etc...
So asleep at a little before 7.
Awake and crying a little before 8
Woke again at 9 something.
Woke at a little after 12 and I fed. -DH had to go in and get him back to sleep after feed.
Woke a little after 4 and I fed.
Woke at a little before 6. -DH went in and got him back to sleep. YEY!!!! He is my hero today.
Wake 7:15.
(was aiming for a 15 min increase. Had trouble with Lyle, so in bed 2h20m) which was 9:35
Asleep 10:30 -12:20
I'm not sure what A time to aim for. This was a good nap. I was doing 2h20m when he was teething. I'm afraid to increase too much risking OT. But, he got OT yesterday anyways when I had the same fear. I put him down UT and he ended up OT.
What would you do?
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Sherry, so hard to increase his A time when he's going to have such a hard time getting down for the nap! I would tend to try to get to 3 hours as cloase as possible still though :)
Well K indeed had a long NW and indeed I am not NOT laughing >:( He was up at 4:30am for the day! Crying his head off by 5:30am demanding to be taken out of the cot, as an hour in there was just getting beyond the joke for him! So we got him up at 5:30am! What a mess. I can;t beleive I was able to push him out till 9am his first nap.
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elo, hugs for the ew :-*
sherry, if you think he'll give you a crappy nap anyway, i'd personally prob just add the extra A time regardless :-\ i guess if you are going to end up with at least one OT nap or an OT bedtime i'd prob shoot for extending the second A time in hopes that bedtime goes a little more smoothly. (however i realise that the second nap time is prob when lyle is tired and needing to rest/nap too so that makes it a little trickier if you cant guarantee you have to time to settle emory...)
is he recently unswaddled and that is why he is messing around in the crib? or do you suspect UT? any APOP options you could use for the second nap? (i'm thinking to extend the second A time, will prob get OT, but APOP him to sleep until he gets used to the extra time)
i'm having to resettle for most naps ATM, PITA teeth >:(
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actually, with the increase in A times we are in the same boat that you are. as soon as I get emory down I am waking up lyle. happened both days, even though the times were vastly different. Actually yesterday was such a mess that I was still working on getting emory down when I had to go in and wake Lyle. Lyle wasn't too happy when I had to go back into Emory's room.
Well, today has been kind of a mess.
I just shot for 2h45m A time this morning.
The up side was he went down in 10 min, with no playing around. The down side is he was OT and crying the whole time. I patted his bum to sleep.
He woke crying after an hour and ten.
So I lost my nerve. And put him down early for the second nap. WEll, I mean, I still extended his normal A time, but I was going to try for 2h45m again.
I ended up having to feed him to sleep. then lyle woke him by kicking his stupid gate. Then I fed him to sleep again. :( So we'll see what kind of nap he takes. Actually, I'm going to go get Lyle right now because he is causing a ruckus and I don't want him to wake Emory at 30 min.
I was wondering if he woke at 1h10m today because of food. It was getting close to 4 hours. He woke at 11. Yesterday I didn't feed him until 8am.
Anyways, we are still a mess. Oh, and bedtime was a mess again yesterday.
I spend well over 3 hours getting this kid to sleep yesterday.
I also don't want him to get used to feeding to sleep :(
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40 min PM nap. I was so happy when he made it past 30 min :(
Kirry - I forgot to say, YES we did just wean from the swaddle. I didn't even think about that really being part of the issue other than him discovering he could sit up etc. in bed :) but that's why he did realize. Heh!!
Any advice on that?
I also took the incline out of the bed because he kept sitting up and toppling over and hitting his head because of the incline.
Are you guys still doing inclines?
Eloys - it's getting late here. I wanted to send a proper message. But, I just ran out of time. I got the book today!!! It came so fast. PM me your paypal number and I'll get some money off to you :-* It's been a very very very long 3 days, with NO mommy time. These are the days I hate working, and I hate that we got rid of TV, lol.
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Hey Sherry,
Huge hugs, hope you get a break soon :) Don't worry about cash, that book was for a friend here, she didn't want it.. so you get to inherit it ;)
Still using the incline. K can't sit himself up yet, but is trying... very cute.
I am at my wits end again. I am ready to take serious action. I have had to start a new thread.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=180271.0
Sherry, I think you would get alot more help and focus if you started one for your NW'ings. You deserve your own thread :-* :-*
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Ok gals I will lock this one for you and direct to the new link:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=180271.0
Sherry let's hear what's happening!