BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: EloysH on October 20, 2010, 09:37:39 am
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Hey All,
I had a thread going since 5 months old, but thought that since we are two months down the track with slightly different circumstances, and more stressed than ever, I better start fresh. I can't take this NW'ing for much longer, I have permanent dark circles under my eyes, and permanent short temper, this is ridiculous!!!
DS2 has been on solids since 6 months, eats 12 foods (due to food intlolerances) and eats protein twice a day. I feel that his Nw'ing is assocation related. I definantly think he needs one feed, but not anymore than that.
Some nights all the feeds are just snacks, some nights one feed is large and the rest snacks. He has been also having long NW'ings every 3 days or so sometimes around 4-5 am. this is really bugging me and was relsoved after we dropped the third cat npa and went to 2 naps, but now is back again.
He also NW's for at least an hour if I try to meddle with the feed, ie reduce the amount of minutes and take him off the boob. I have had a few "one off attempts" to do this in the last few weeks and he gets really unsettled and cries and cries (more than mantra crying) demanding to be re-fed, and won't settle for me or DH until he gets back on the boob. So he is quite stubborn about his feeding at night situation.
The problem is that during the day, I feed him about 5 mins before bed, then pop him in the cot. He's falling asleep peacefully in the cot, but only because he's had his windown with a feed. I've really stuffed this up I think. I as doing it whilst he was establishing on solids to prevent him wakign early from his naps from hunger. Now I know hunger is not an issue, I haven't pulled these feeds back from his nap time.
Today I fed him 10 mins before sleep and so by sleep time he kciked off for 40 mins, very very angry crying and if I put him back in the cot he would break out a new into a fresh angry fit, this went on for 40 mins and I gave in and fed him where he promptly went to sleep! He is swaddled tighly for bed BTW. He really needs the swaddle to settle.
Help! I need a plan! Do I choose a night feed and send DH to resettle without feeding?
Routine:
wake: 6am
Feed: 7am
Solids 7:30am
Sleep 9:15am (small top up before bed)
Wake 10:45am or 11:15 (1.5 - 2 hours nap)
Feed: 12:00pm
Solids: 1:00pm
Sleep: approx 2pm (approx 1.5 hours) (small top up before bed)
Wake: 3:30pm
Feed: 4:00pm
Solids: 5:00pm
Feed: 7:00pm
Bed:7:00pm
NW approx 10-11pm - feed (If I take him off the bobo early he will be awake crying alot on and off pretty angry)
NW approx 2-3am - feed (every 2nd day he skips this feed)
NW apporox 4:30am- 5am - feed and often up for a long time playing afterwards
thanks for reading
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((((hugs)))) I totally sympathise, Stan was still feeding 3-4 times a night at 9 months before I had to get tough with him!
I think you've got to put some space between those top ups and sleep. Maybe start by just shifting your wind-down around so that BF comes earlier in the sequence of things.
Then I'd also get DH to settle him without feeding at that 2-3am waking, since he's not always feeding at that time anyway.
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((hugs)) Eloise - I can only imagine how tired you are with all of this - I can see myself ending up in a very similar position though as some babies really do seem to need a full tummy to nap well.
What are you actually doing though? Are you feeding swaddled and then putting down almost asleep, or are you finished the feed with an awake baby then doing a WD?
Has he found his thumb at all (I know he doesn't have a paci?) Does he suck it during the day at all? I'm just wondering if at this age you might be best to free an arm for him so that he can find a way to self settle. I know LOADS of you would disagree with me on this but I find it hard to imagine how a baby can really self soothe tightly swaddled without a paci. Obviously a real issue if you also have a jolty baby, and partly I think why Megan has ended up a tummy sleeper. Jacob used to rub a cloth over his face to self soothe, and Megan either sucks her thumb or rubs her face into the mattress.
Routine wise how long has that final A been 3.5hrs?
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marking
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m@rking :-*
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thanks lovely ladies for your replies.
Anna: How does DH resettle him though? Does he hold him to sleep (since he is without a feed and its hard enough) or does he have to fall asleep on his own with the PU/PD?
Last two nights he was NW at 11pm chatting then escalating into crying so I have fed him. He hasn't gone back to sleep but has fussed and fussed. We've gone in, and then he's lost the plot when he leave, but if he pick him up he wants to lay awake in our arms! As if he are going to be doing that! I've even tried to feed again but he hasn't been hungry! So now its 12:30pm, hes been up since 11pm. Same as last night. I tihnk he's settling now due to being really over it and probably tired.
Its coinciding with him not wanting to be laid down in the day, demanding more and more to be picked up, I wonder if its SA? He won't really play on his own anymore, and gets so cranky with demanding crying If so how do I fix it? I feel so confused, why don't the feeds put him back to sleep?
Liz: The last A time is anywhere from 2 hours to 3.5 hours. Any longer and I will do a cat nap. Like yesterday afternoon, we had to do a catnap.
The swaddle is an aussie swaddle, so he can have his fists near his face and suck them if he wants, but he doesn't.
At the moment for naps I wrap him on one layer, feed him in his room on the chair, take him to cot and wrap him in the second layerquickly whist he is sleepy, sing a short song with a cuddle and pop into cot. He is usually very verty drowsy. If he falls alseep on the boob (often at bedtime) I just wrap him quickly and pop him straight in the cot.
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Long NWings often confuse me. For ages I thought they were due to being UT at bedtime or too much daytime sleep, but Megan has done it a few nights when neither has been the case at all so I think there is sometimes a developmental aspect to it :-\.
That does sound like a BFing prop to me :(. If he really is almost asleep before he goes in then the oxytocin in the BM is what is keeping him dopey while you quickly wrap. I would say try slowly increaing the time from the feed but I find that if M falls asleep on the boob that if I wake her completely I lose the sleep completely. So what I have started to do is feed her downstairs as I know she won't fall asleep there but will in her nursing chair in a nice quiet room. Then I take her up - do WD and put her down sleepy or fully awake if she is faffing about. I then only go back to her if she is really crying or not settling.
I wonder if that 3rd nap is backfiring on you now? There does come a time where you are better off without it and just do an early bedtime instead.
I do think you are going to have to remove that boob prop to improve the night sleep really - plus finish off the final stages or getting rid of that CN. I will confess that I have pretty much ditched it with M now as I would rather deal with an OT EW than deal with multiple UT NWings. I guess it depends what the individual LOs OT night pattern is though.
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thanks Liz, the cat nap is gone, actually, that was just a one off because everything went bust yesterday. ANyway he had good day sleep today but not asleep with this NW till 1am!!! that's two hours >:(
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Hello my dear :)
You are going through such a tough time right now :-*. I am no good with advice on NWs seeing as we are struggling with them too ::). Only things that jump out are have you tried a DF? Maybe at 10.30 before he wakes at 11? With Olly I would find that if I tried to cut a feed short he would not settle which says to me he is hungry. If he takes a good feed and still will not settle then I would say the NW is something else.
Also, your A times do look on the long side for 7 months. We only just went from 3hr15m on the 1st A time this week. Though I guess he is getting good naps so that must be OK?? :P
Maybe as he is getting so many BFs during the day he is not getting full on them properly? ie in the am he is getting feeds at 7, 7.30 and 9.15 - he may then not be hungry enough for another good BF at 12??
Just a couple of thoughts - HTH.
xxx
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I agree with Liz, I think you need to get rid of the BF prop before nights improve. Once he can fall asleep without the boob, then it'll be possible for DH to settle him at one of those NWs - I wouldn't send in DH to do PUPD if he's not sleeping independently yet.
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thanks, sigh, it seems too hard at the moment ??? Last night we were both up from 11pm - 1:40am he was beside himself with tiredness. This is just awful. I am soo wrecked today.
Yesterday for first sleep I tried to put him down with cutting him off to a short minute or two on the breast, he cried angrily for 40 mins and Ds1 couldn;t handle it I was on my own at home, DS1 was so emotional and worried about K. I gave up after 40 mins a re -feed him. Just feeling very low about all this.
He was so tired yesterday his A times were 2 hrs 45 and 2 hours 45 again he was yawning and carrying on by 1.5 hours though of awake time. I am shuddering at what today will bring, just about to get him out of his cot!
So we will try something on Saturday something when DH is here...maybe feed him in another room 10 mins before sleep then put him down without any breast? I hope its not too mean, I know he will loose the plot.
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So we will try something on Saturday something when DH is here...maybe feed him in another room 10 mins before sleep then put him down without any breast? I hope its not too mean, I know he will loose the plot.
I think that is what you are going to have to do - but totally understand how hard it will be for you.
I'm going to have a think and see if I can think of anyone who has got proper BTDT experience of breaking a feed to sleep prop as perhaps they can offer a bit more and explain what it will be like.
((hugs)) Eloise - I really hope today (or tomorrow for me as I haven't gone to bed yet!) isn't as bad as you are expecting.
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thanks Liz, you are so kind :-*
Something else is dawning on me. For the last 3 days I have been doing a minor food challenge for his food intolerances. Last night there was some mucus in his poo - he poo at 12pm. This morning when I changed him it was FULL of green mucus, hardly any normal poo. I think he may have failed the challenge and that explains some of the longer than usually NW'ing - maybe? He also hasn't been very settled i ntheday wanting to be held alot. But that's probably normal ::) Anyway, will watch his symptoms now the challenge is finished and see if they improve. Usually takes 24-72 hours to come good.
Pretty guttered if it is a fail, for the implications. :(
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*huge huge hugs*
We did have a feed to sleep prop, but it was so short lived (after vacation) that it wasn't that hard to break. I just stopped feeding before nap. And did pu/pd.
I am also getting a long night waking. Mine is after the 4am feed. So I think I need to tackle that feed.
I really hope it wasn't a failed challenge :( But, that would explain a lot. You are also dealing with teething as well, right?
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Jus marking this thread as I expect similar issues with my DS soon :-/
Hugs to you, Eloys. Hope it gets better soon.
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We decided to cut him a break before sleep training as we are pretty sure he was reacting to the food challenge I just did. So the good news is that these issues we are having are exacerbated by the food reaction. Its 48 hours since i stopped eating the troublesome foods and he is alot happier by day now.
We had one good night 2 wakings with straight back to sleep with a good day twice he went down without the boob!
That day went like this:
wake 8am (bedtime night before went bust and he wouldn't go down till 9pm!)
Sleep 12pm :o (feed before sleep at 11am - but not tired enough was playing in cot so got him up 30 mins later let him play a bit, put him back down without boob and traight to sleep!)
Wake 1:30pm
Sleep 4:15pm (this was a sling nap as it was so late we had to get him down quick)
Wake 5pm
Sleep 8pm
Last night he went down well at 8pm (straight after bedtime feed) woke at 1am then 4:20am I fed both times. Unfortuntaley after the 4am he played and played, then DH went in after he started crying a fair bit and rocked him back to lseep with lots of crying by about 6:00am :o Poor DH and I have no idea what this NW was all about. Probably the prop things again?????
Not it is 8am and Kai is STILL not hungry for his first feed of the morning. :o
Hopefully today his schedule will fall back on track , we was up at 7am.
If he is better today (again) then we will look at fixing the day naps, and then next Friday night doing the night settling. DH doesn't want to do it through the week - fair enough.
I will need to ask advice on how to do the night settling too..... I fear that it will be hard core compared to the day.
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Huge {{{hugs}}}
I had a very similar problem with DD1 and weaned the feeding to sleep for naps and NWs when she about 7-8 months. UGH! Weaning the feeding to sleep during the day was actually fairly easy and NWs were awful for about 3 nights and after that much much easier to manage. There was a lot of upset and crying the those 3 nights but after that it was so much better. Think it just took her a while to realise I wasn't going to be feeding every time she woke anymore.
I have a screaming toddler trying to wake the newborn so I'll be back but it will get better. The idea of it is worse than doing it, I promise!
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aww thanks so much :D you are an absolute angel to come and chat about this when you are obviously so busy with your new baby! :)
I really do take comfort from what you have said about the thought of it being worse that we think.... I am very very nervous about the night stuff.
We had another nap today completely without a feed... so I am thinking that we can crack the day time stuff with a little perserverence... I will keep this up for the next few days. Then come Friday night I really need to hear more about how you did it in the night.
What if they wake an hour later after they are resettled? Do you feed? Maybe they ARE too hungry to get though any more hours without the feed.. I understand it is habitual hunger but it's still hunger right?
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Back!!!
We had another nap today completely without a feed... so I am thinking that we can crack the day time stuff with a little perserverence... I will keep this up for the next few days.
This is what I did initially. I thought it was unfair on DD to tackle the nights until I'd broken the feed to sleep association during the day. Plus I knew I needed to make things as easy as possible for ME at nights or I'd totally crumble if DD was very unsettled. So I think thats a great plan to woke on not sleeping before naps until you are ready to tackle the nights. It'll also give you the confidence to know he can settle well without a feed.
What if they wake an hour later after they are resettled? Do you feed? Maybe they ARE too hungry to get though any more hours without the feed.. I understand it is habitual hunger but it's still hunger right?
I didn't go completely cold turkey on the night feeds for this reason. I wanted to be fair to her and me and give weaning the night feeds a fair go with less chance of me giving in. Probably took longer in the longterm but I don't think I could have managed complete cold turkey!
First few nights I didn't feed before 1am...from an 8pm bedtime as I assumed she could go 5 hours without needing a feed! She woke the first night at 12.15am and I just resettled using ssh-pat. It took at hour of screaming then settling then crying and so on but I persevered and she did go back to sleep without a feed. She slept then to 5am and I fed her then and that was her until 8am. Next night I did the same. Settled after 30 minutes and with much less upset. 20 minutes on night 3 so the next night I moved the goalposts and decided I wouldn't feed until 2am and on it went. If she did waken it was easy to resettle her without feeding. One thing I decided before I started tackling the night feeds was that if she woke and I started to resettle without feeding that i would work through it until she was back asleep even if it passed the time I had decided I was going to feed at. Make sense? So that first night I had decided I would feed after 1am and she woke at 12.15 and was still awake when 1am hit but i just kept going with the resettling as I didn't want her to be confused and think I would eventually give in. I was glad I'd decided that in my head before hand because when 1am did hit I do remember thinking 'should i just feed?' and i probably would have had i not thought that through.
I did find I had trouble resettling her if she woke after 5.30-6am in the longterm. I found she had had enough night sleep to put up enough of a fight and stay awake and we ended up with an EW and a tired bub the next day. So to be honest if she woke after 5.30am I did tend to feed to get us through to normal wake up. We weaned that feed about 2 months later with no bother at all. Not saying you have to do that or even recommending it but just trying to point out the pitfalls as I found them! That one NW didn't bother me as she still took a good feed and breakfast on wakening and I am rubbish at EWs so it worked here.
Does that sound like something that could work for you and DS?
Only other thing we found was resettling at night was easier when I did it even if I wasn't feeding. If DH went to settle the NWs were much longer and unsettled. I had thought it would be easier if DH went to her as she would be expecting milk if she saw me but in reality she was so used to seeing me when she woke, that she was not impressed to see DH. I think because I had also worked on the naps when DH was at work we'd half broken the feed to sleep association already so nights were just an extension of what we'd been doing during the day.
HTH. Longterm NWs are so hard and so exhausting longterm especially when you're the one dealing with them. I honestly dreaded tackling them but after that initial week it was so much better here. Starting at the weekends is great and really helped here. DH was able to get up with DD1 and I got a lie in!!
{{{hugs}}}
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How's it going?
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thanks again for your help!~ :D
I think I will use that method. Looking back witrh Ds1, that's what we did... resettled the first feed and let the other waking get naturally later and later.
Yesterday naps were a bit of failure... he was cranky and OT all day... and screamed the house down at nap time so I ended up feeding to sleep for both.
Sigh..
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Don't feel bad, Elo. We all know how it goes. But, hopefully tomorrow will be more successful.
FWIW, the other thing that helped me was to realize that even though J was genuinely hungry (he took a full feed at every NW!!) he wasn't going to be motivated to move those calories to the daytime if I continued to let him feed at night. But, remember, by this point, these babes have enough heft on them to miss a meal or two here and there. Yes, it's tough to get a hungry baby back to sleep, but it can happen and we found that it was a matter of days before he started to get the message that night time eating was no longer an option. Mind you, we didn't get tough on this until he was almost 11 months!!
Hugs, sweets.
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Things just sound so unpredictable. Hugs Eloys. XXXXXXXXXXXX You know our story probably inside and out. We had so many night wakings. The long ones only ended after night feedings ended, but he was up all the time. If you think it is a prop issue, perhaps try to work on that (maybe put off the food trials for a bit while you do this to reduce confusion; although teething is probably going to be in there regardless). If reducing the props does not fix the problem, then you know it is something else. And imho if you are giving it good effort and it is not cracking it, I think there is something else driving the behavior.
Ending the props (paci and feedings) did not improve things over the long term. And it was SUPER hard to end the use of feedings and paci (because there was a medical issue driving the need for him to soothe). Slow withdrawl of reducing milk and replacing it with water took a MONTH. I totally regret to this very day weaning those things on the advice of our pedi because they were not the source of the problem. They were a byproduct of the problem. Until we did it, we didn't know.
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thanks Jean :) I do have these points you raised in my mind. If after a good go of trying to drop one feed, we don't see progress over a few days, I will know to look at his relfux or food related issues and meds again.
Shannon: you read my mind. Today I was just contemplating how hard it is acutally going to be getting hungry baby back to sleep. Last night he woke at 9:30pm and woke 5 mins after putting him back to sleep and then did this 4 times... before I relented and fed at around 10:15pm. We are going to need steely resolve to do this properly. I really want my sleep back so I am working up the resolve!
I had a lovely day with him today, he was an angel, no hint of tiredness no hint of reflux. Going for his naps like a dream one with boob one without. And bedtime was a breeze too. Yesterday he only ahad a 45 min nap for his second nap in the afternoon so maybe he was just too tired.
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{{{hugs}}}
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Last night he woke at 9:30pm and woke 5 mins after putting him back to sleep and then did this 4 times...
I could see H do this over and over. He was actually trying to sleep, but the discomfort kept waking him as he was dropping off.
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Hi :(
We didn't plan to do any sleep training at night yet, since we have DS2's 3rd b'day party. (Its today) . I am posting at 6am......
Went to sleep midnight exhausted due to preparations. K woke about 1am for a feed. We got a new monitor set up last night. I woke at 6am to it with battery died :o and I raced downstairs with dread in my heart to find K in bed asleep, evidence of heavy sobbing to sleep, one arm out of wrap, face down, sideays in cot. He has obvioulsy CIO and flallen alseep exhuasted. :- :'(
Our room is upstairs, sometimes I can hear him if I am in a light sleep without the monitor, however, I was probably too exhausted last night. This is my worst worst nightmare :'( :'( :'(
The poor poor thing. I am devastated :'( WHo knows how long he was left to cry and how long he suffered for, crying for someone to come to him. I really hope he is not dmamaged and we haven't broken his trust. Now what do we do?
Do we start sleep training tonight so he has not gone thru that in vain so he doesn't have prolonged suffering? Do we back right off and see of his trust is broken and try to gain it back, then do sleep training?
Help :-[
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((((hugs)))) he is not the first and won't be the last. How has he been today? I am sure no harm will come to him from crying for one spell. If he seems fine today, personally I would be inclined to start sleep training tonight. He has gotten himself off to sleep once, and I do very much doubt that he will have lost trust in you from just one night.
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thanks Anna for your reply :-*
he hasn't woken yet, so waiting to see, its not usual for him to sleep in so late 7:15am - he must have been awake for a while last night : :-\
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OMG Eloise that is upsetting. Lots and lots of hugs and cuddles for him today. You will know in your heart if it right to sleep train or not x
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OMG he woke happy! and actually fed straight away --
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Super hugs, Eloys. I know you must be so sad. I think it is really your decision, hon. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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Hi, How has Kai been?? How was the party!
BBx
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Ah that's great! Babies are so resilient. Yes, if their cries are repeatedly ignored, it is bound to cause some issues, but I really believe that (depending on the baby) if it happens one time, chances are no harm will come. Things happen, you know? Mums get ill, they have to tend to other siblings - all sorts of things happen which mean that sometimes, some babies of excellent parents will cry themselves to sleep. It's not something to loose sleep over. You are doing an amazing job.
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thanks Anna :) I guess sh*t happens sometimes. :) We have decided to go ahead and resettle the first feed of each night. We have a rare window where he is not teething, reacting to a food, or doing a food challenge and his reflux has been quite good.
I think the main priority for my sanity right now is to try and get some longer stretches of sleep at night. And it was great to see him eat his solids properly today with just the one night feed.
So a quick question - he is due to wake (for the first night feed) in 2 hours or so - around 11pm.
DH will resettle him in his arms or as required until he falls asleep on his first waking. We know he will go ballistic and fully expect it to take about an hour. Whast if he wakes 10 mins later? What if he wakes 45 mins late? When do we feed? I know he will be hungry. I am inclined to feed him the next time he wakes provided its over 20 mins since he fell asleep. What do you think? Or should we work with a cut off time?
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This might be a daft thought, but I think I would wake *him* just a touch before 11, give a full feed (almost like an awake DF) and then settle the NEXT one instead, doing so as many times as necessary before 3am (ie. it is not unreasonable to push him to go 4 hours). I suspect if you can get those wee hours out of the equation, you'll all sleep better and have a better foundation on which to proceed?
Xx
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I like Gypsymom's idea. How did the night go?
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Yep - I agree with Gypsymom. I think that when trying to wean feeds it is the very early morning one (2amish) you try and get rid of first, leaving the DF and then the early morning one (6amish). Course that means you are awake in the small hours of the morning with a screaming baby but hopefully if you DF then you have got a few hours kip in first??
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Hugs about the CIO...when Myla was about 2 months old, the same thing happeend to us..but I woke to her screaming. I felt horrible! But it didn't do any damage to our trust.
I agree with keeping your dream feed for now, and getting rid of the other feed. When Baker was a baby he had alot of NW to feed. He would never take a full bottle in the morning until we cut out the middle of the night feed. He definatly had habitual wakings, because after just a few nights of pushings his feeds he just stopped waking up.
With Myla we never dream fed at all, so she just woke for her 12 and 3-4feed. We stopped the 12 one first though cause that's what worked for her, and then pushed the 3 am one and within a few days she was not waking at all.
Good luck hun!
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Eloys, I think you have gotten some great advice on that early evening feed. :-)
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thanks girls for your advice :)
So we braced ourselves last night for the worst.
BUT, he never woke until 3:00AM which is unheard of! He must have heard us talking and decided to sleep a bit longer ::) Or else the NW gods were kind to us. Or else that CIO made a difference...who knows.
So I just fed him at 3:00am - a very big feed (that was a 7 hour stretch) and then woke at 7:00am, what a cheeky monkey. He was hungry in the morning, that was fabulous too.
We are bracing oursleves again tonight for the worst though. I think he was just sooo exhausted, that's why he only woke at once.
Tonight not sure what to do..... since he has done a long stretch first up I can try for that again and not feed until 2-3am or else try Shannons idea. I am nervous to introduce a dream feed though, in the past it has meant extra wakings later on. And besides, he is doing 12pm and 4am feeds on a good day so 4 hour stretches already, I need to make him go longer than 4 hours.
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I do wonder about the dream feed actually causing more wakings with the reflux. It means he has something to reflux sooner in the night. If you have tried that with less success, I would follow your instincts to try to push it further in to the night. ;-)
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hi hun, you've gotten great advice already, just popping over here as requested :-* i'll explain my reasoning behind how we did it. we had a df at 10pm which was 50/50 whether he woke, 1/2am feed, 4/5am feed. we decided to drop the 1/2am feed first because we had a df but also because the lightest phase of night sleep is from midnight til 5/5.30am, so we wanted to teach him to sleep without a feed in the lighter REM sleep in which they are more likely to waken easily first (and also take longer to settle without a night feed). we then ditched the 4/5am feed, as figured we'd only have to get him back to sleep once and could then be up to start the day. and we still have the df which we will tackle soon, but because this is their deepest sleep phase of the night, it is 'in theory' easier to settle them.
with the first feed we dropped, my ideal feed time was 4am, i allowed 30mins grace to feed earlier. but anything before that (yep even 35 minutes) was a resettle, and we would resettle like pp described, until he fell asleep even if it went past the time i was planning to feed. that way there was no confusion as to 'is she going to feed me if i cry long enuf' or not. the first night was LONG, 1.5hrs to get him back to sleep, second and third nights quick resettle (under 15mins), 4th night regression, 1.5hrs again (this happened with both feeds we dropped), 5th night didnt wake.
dropping the 4/5am feed i reduced 2mins each night (1min each side) got down to 3mins each side and then dropped it. i started by picking him up for some cuddle time the first two nights to get rid fo the feed first, and then worked on settling him in his cot. took a few weeks for him to not wake at all at this time but i think there were some routine issues/too much day sleep/teeth at play there. he now STTN 50% of the time or needs a quick resettle at this time. i think i was helping him too much and sshh/patting longer than really needed so have backed off how much i help him the last two weeks and it has improved.
jean has a good point with the refluxing, my only other thought tho is that a df would be closer to when his meds are taken, whereas as it gets closer to morning he has been longest without medication (ie. more refluxy after the 4am feed), how is he usually after this feed?
i think the biggest thing, no matter what strategy you choose is to be consistent :-*
more hugs hun :-*
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oh thanks Kirry, I was just about to pick up the phone and thought I'd better check here first :) I have a clear picture of what you did, good. Is he still EW? Great that he sttn 50% of the time now! I bet that dream feed is really easy to drop for you, since you did the hard ones first.
It really helps to hear that we need to be consistent. For the first time in a while I feel I have the resolve to see this through. I think the CIO has alot to do with it, and also that I really want my cleep back. He is old enough!! I hope we don't get a regression night.. ugh. Each night we are bracing ourselves for the worst though.
So last night was night 3 including the CIO night. We have found ourselves on this path - resettle this first feed 11-12pm and when he wakes again, (provided its past 2am), he gets one feed. I'll be happy to go with one feed a night for a few weeks. Last night he woke at 12pm, and started to go quiet after a while, we thought he'd put himself back to sleep. Alas, he cried within a few minutes, then started getting really angry, so DH went to him, it took about 15 mins to get him to sleep! He woke at 3am (good boy) I fed him, then not again till 7am! (this is seeming tooo easy KWIM?). Maybe tonight we will get a regression... Two nights of only one feed a night feels pretty good though.
I am hoping the 3am feed naturally gets later and later over the coming weeks. Do you think that is feasible?
If the first feed is past 2 am hopefully it means that he will only have the one feed that night. Any other wakings after the feed are a resettle. Lets hope that we don't have to go through that too often.
Oh and yesterday I got him down for his naps without a feed - yay! (well a feed 10 mins before anyway).
thanks again
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Eloys, it sounds like great progress. :-) XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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I am hoping the 3am feed naturally gets later and later over the coming weeks. Do you think that is feasible?
def think that is feasible hun, sounds like you are doing great. if after a few weeks/month/whatever you're comfortable with ;) it still isnt getting later and later then you can resettle for the first waking and push out your 'not before' feed time gradually.
yeah the EW is mostly sorted now, still getting it occasionally but only once or twice a week at most now. his night sleep from DF til 7/7.30am is awesome and i rarely hear him now, i even see him wake completely on the video monitor and look around for a bit then go back to sleep. NW issues when he doesnt STTN are usually before DF (so i'm guessing some OT from napping dramas).
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YEY!!!! Eloys. We are down to one feed as well. Still have to resettle at least once though, usually. Although, as you know we had one night where we had a STTN. No repeats yet :P
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resettled for 30 mins at 12:00am, then woke again at 12:45pm.. I fed him. He slept till 7am!
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This baby boy is doing so well!!
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Brilliant Eloise!
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Woo-hoo!
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Hello all... sorry to jump in here. I have a post going on the BF Board and some of you have kindly advised me on other questions.
I have some questions if I may... we are in the next couple of weeks going to stop nursing to sleep, and we are thinking that dropping night feeds one by one as Eloise and others have done, is better for us as I have been paying attention to her feeds through the night and she seems sometimes to feed more through the night than she does in the day and I am too worried at the thought of her being hungry and having to put her back to sleep the whole night straight away.
DD is 11 months, so a bit older than Eloise's DS, so which feed would it be best to try and drop first? There are not really any 'regular' times, sometimes she can wake 2 times and sometimes 5! I am knackered!! We haven't ever had a dream feed. I am guessing that due to her 'spiritedness' when we tried the dream feeds on a few occasions, she would wake fully and then not be able to get her back to sleep for ages! And I think by now we shouldn't be doing a dream feed anyway (if we'd ever done one!)..!!
We will be tackling naps at the same time as at the moment she nurses to sleep for ALL sleep - I am very bad I know.
If we drop one feed at a time, how do the other feeds gradually get later? Is there something I need to do or will it happen automatically? Once the first feed is dropped, how long is it best to wait until the next one is dropped? How long does it take for them to readjust from losing each feed?
Eloise - just wanted to say that my DD went through a 'phase' from about 7 months to 10 months where she would be awake for up to 2 hours in the middle of the night, not crying, just wanting to play!.. it was a nightmare! But she seems to have outgrown it, so hopefully your DS will too?!
So glad to hear that things are improving for you!
Thanks
Sam
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nice work elo and kai :-*
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Hi Sam,
There is no right or wrong answers. From what you have said, I think you are right not to intriduce a dream feed at this late stage ans especially as she is spirited.
I have found it easy to drop the feed that is easiest first to get some runs on the board and get the confidence up. I think getting her down for a few sleeps in the day with the breast feed shortly before sleep but not fed to sleep will get your confidence up too.
From memory with dropping feeds for Ds1, once you drop one, it gets easier and easier, I think if you can get past the first few nights and stick to your guns it will be down hill from there.
If she is feeding randomly 2-5 feeds I would use a cut off time. No feeds before midnight, or no feeds after 3am etc. Pick a cut off time you can stick to and resettle within those times and feed the rest. That way she will be forced to go back to sleep without the boob within a window of time, but the rest she gets fed, so its not a huge deal. YOu may find that once she fuinally falls alseep after being resettled ( mind you it mioght be 1.5 hours of crweaming until she sleeps) shje might sleep a very good block of hours after that.
HTH
BTW wish us luck for tonight, no regressions please Kai!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Good luck Hun x
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Not a very good night last night ... he woke crying hard at 12:00pm and did a poo, I think he has fissures from his first hard poo. He screamed the house down as we changed his nappy. I had no choce but to feed. He took ages to resettle after the feed too probaly asleep by 1am. We thought that we'd be resettling in the early hours but no, he didn't wake till 6am!
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Thanks Eloise... all makes sense.
Sorry to hear your night wasn't so good, but not so bad in the end.
Poor boy if he is in discomfort, but at least you know why he has woken.
Hope you have a better night.
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really bad last night... is this the regression. Had great naps of 2.5 hours and 1.5 hours was worried about too much day sleep.
He went down at 7pm, woke at 7:45pm, resettled, 10:30pm resettled in 30 mins, then woke every 10 mins after that till 11:45pm after eing resettled. Finally fed him at 11:45am. He woke again at 5am, didn't have the heart not to feed. Ugh.
So back to the two feeds and loads of NW's!! He's fine today. A bit tired though.
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hugs hun, hard to say, could be regression, could have been harder to resettle from the longer daysleep. i remembered last night that i increased k's breaky from 1tbs to 2tbs dry cereal and also went from 1/2tbs to 1tbs protein/meat when i dropped the early morning bf. wasnt confident that he'd make it up with more milk during the day, and he didnt. hang in there :-*
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well he didn't eat much solids yesterday either and also had a chiro treatment in which he screamed the whole time.
We actually think now its the start of teething. He's been sleeping like a demon in the day, tired before usual A times, and this arvo he had red cheeks. All tell tale signs! There were just too many wakings last night too. Waiting and watching.
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Lots of hugs for the rough night, Eloys. I wonder why he screamed through the whole treatment? Has he been there before? XXXXXXXXXXX
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they said the tense babies usually scream due to their nervous systems being on red alert as they are tense all the time. He tends to over react at home like that too... like he is not a relaxed baby at all! Hopefully after a few more treatments and he is used to it, and less tight it will not be so traumatic for him.
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I was thinking it could be the new surroundings. What does he over react to? Perhaps a sensory thing like being hyper sensitive to certain sensory input? Have you cued in to anything like that?
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So the last few nights he's been waking ALOT, some long NW's smoe short, but now pretty certain he's teething. So glad that I was able to get several nights out of hinm with just one feed and lots of naps down without the boob. At least I know now that HE and I can do it, and we will pick up where we left off after he starts feeling a bit better.
Jean: he is definantly touchy and has alot of nervous restless energy, alot of the touchiness and sensory issues I think are linked to his nervous system being on red alert and adrenals turned on all the time... hopefully the adjustments help to settle all that a bit. We'll see, otherwise its just in his nature.
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Eloys, I really did like the book "Raising a Sensory Smart Child". It may put some of those sensory things in to perspective. (It connected a lot of dots for things that seemed unrelated to each other.) H has both hyposensitivity (under reacts) and hyposensitivity (over reacts) to certain sensory input. It does give some strategies for handling sensory issues. I was able to see that a bit of what he needed was certain sensory input to sleep well, too. And getting enough of the right sensory input during awake time also helped. ;-)
You are having progress! YEAH! :-) Hugs for the teething; I hope they come in quickly.
And congrats on the mod job!
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Jean: he is definantly touchy and has alot of nervous restless energy
Can you describe this a little more? What are you noticing? Is he uncomfortable (restless), seeking a certain sensory input (restless), or avoiding something (restless) by what he is doing? Or the behaviors can be a mixture from what I noticed with H. I really think the book may help give you some ideas; it describes a lot of behaviors that are the result of sensory needs.
More hugs and I hope the nights are going ok! XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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ok just an update: Kai STTN last night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So we just kept resettling after the first waking each night... sometimes it didn't work very well and I ended up feeding because he would keep waking 5 mins later after being asleep. But gradually he has been waking once a night and its been getting towards 3-4am. So last night he randomly just slept through from 8pm to 5:45am!!!
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Oh and I think the chiropractic is really helping, he doesn't seem so hyper or distractable or reactive.
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WOO HOO!!!!! there is hope for us all!!
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Yayyyyy!! Go Kai!!
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fabulous news hun :-*
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A long deserved for a wonderful mom! Did you manage to sleep through, too? I sure hope so!
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woke at 4:30am for 1/2 hour both nights..... ::)
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(((hugs))) for the mummy waking. Although I did (and still sometimes do) find a kind of pleasure in being awake just because I am awake, not because a small person woke me... and lying there listening to the sound of a baby not crying.