BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Grants on June 07, 2011, 11:11:08 am
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Hi ladies,
Some of you already know that M has trouble with his sleep. Nws + Ews. We seemed to have 'almost' fixed his Nws (we still have a few bad nights but not as bad as it used to be).
I never thought I would write a post about this ( my posts used to be more about M’s Nws) but I can’t take M’s EWs any longer!! I used to say “ as long as M sttn I’m fine with the Ews” I was so wrong. I thought I was really tired because of the NWs+EWs combo. But the Ews don’t help with the tiredness. I mean, I def feel better having uninterrupted sleep but the Ews are driving us insane!! Dh is even thinking about taking a day off , on a day that M is at nursery ,just to sleep.
Current routine:
Wake up: between 4:45-5:05am
Nap: between 11:30-12:00 (1 hour only)
BT: 7:30pm
We try rub his back to help him go back to sleep every single morning but he won’t have it. Sometimes it looks like he goes back to sleep, I leave the room and then 5 mins later he is awake again.
I have tried everything!!!
-We have blackout curtains.
-Groclock is set for 5:30am atm. He is not allowed out of the cot before 5:30am.
-Long nap (longer than 1 hour)=Nws and Ews( even when M has bad nights he still wakes up between 4:45-5am)
-Long nap and late BT= the same wake up time
-BT earlier than 7pm=even earlier wake up
-Early nap and allowed to nap for as long as he like= even earlier wake up time.
I have tried so many things. I have even tried leaving some Shreddies, with no milk, for him in the cot for breakfast but he just ignored it and wanted out of the cot ::)
This kid just doesn’t like sleeping! He is only 20 months and has been on 1 hour nap for the last month. I don’t even think he has enough overall sleep for his age TBH. He only has an average of 9.5 hours night + 1 hour nap. Is it 10.5 hours overall enough for a kid M’s age?
I don’t know if anybody will be able to help. Maybe someone has a novel idea?
Many thanks for reading :)
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{{Hugs}}....sorry things aren't too much better!
Is there anything developmental/teeth etc going on?
When you were getting NW's, was his WU time later or were you still getting EW's?
Have you thought about trying W2S? If it's more that the EW has become a habit rather than something making him wake at that time (the light mornings/noise etc) then it could be worth a shot?
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It's neverending isn't it?!
I wonder about doing something like not giving him a nap and doing an early bedtime and see what happens OR giving him a super late night to see what happens and hope he sleeps later to shift the whole day?
The only other thing I though is it may just be his body adjusting to STTN. Remember he isn't used to sleeping 9hrs straight and he may just sort himself out?
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My lo woke at that time for her first 15 months, got so much better whenshe was on one nap at 11 months and has started waking at four again so am gonna nap cut again as I knowits exhausting all round. But she n other kids I know do tend to wake early when getting used to sttn xx
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Siane, No teething etc … He has always had EWs since birth. He never ever woke up after 5:50am even when he was having all the Nws. I haven’t tried W2S. I always thought that W2S should be used with much younger children??????
Laura, I like the idea of a ‘super late BT’. I should try that on the weekend. What is a ‘super late BT’ for you? I have tried 8:40pm and it didn’t work. I mean, I couldn’t try long enough( like 5 days or so) without having to fix it with a longer nap the next day as he still wakes up early with a super late BT and then can’t cope with only 1 hour nap. How much later BT should I try with 1 hour nap? The ‘no nap’ scenario is not for us atm. He is really tired by 11:30am most days as he wakes up too early. I don’t think he can cope without a nap.
Huby, I’m not so sure if I can cut M’s nap for now. He is so young and is only having 1 hour nap. How old is your lo?
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I meant like go out in the evening for dinner and put him down maybe at 9.30pm - I probably would let him have a longer nap that day - it just may get you on a better footing to start the next day later with perhaps a later nap? IDK - thinking out loud here!
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Does he have ALL his teeth then Grants?
I personally don't believe that EW is set in stone. I have seen it for several months in our house whereby there were days I had to wake up my kid after 7! And this was a kid who was the same, anywhere between 5-5:30 for over 2 years of his life. Now he's back to EW. So for us it's partially routine, partially developmental. There's no magic answer, but there are things you can do to stay sane.
My two cents is to let him have a long nap and do a late bedtime. And yes, by late I mean when he is tired enough to go to sleep. I do believe he will sort himself out soon but I also think you guys need to be happy in the family and EWs is not happy making. I totally understand. I always felt EW were far worse than NW because your whole day shifts to an unreasonable point.
I know you say you have tried a long nap but when was that and how long did you do it for?
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Wendy, M only has 16 teeth. He is a very slow teether. I don’t think the EWs are related to teeth at all. I know it can happen with a lot of los but M has always had Ews even when he was too young to be teething. M has had Ews since birth really.
Yeah, I know what you mean about F. I have read some of your posts in the hope I could use some tips. Miguel is a bit different from Finn in the sense that F has been a great napper M is not such a good napper. He normally sleeps for 1.5 hours if left to it. He will do 2 hours if he is really tired after long Nws and busy days. But he won’t do 2 hours nap for a few days in a row, iykwim.
I kind of like your idea if M was a bit younger but I don’t want him to have long naps for the sake of a late BT.I would love him to learn to sleep longer during the night, really. I love the only few hours I have with DH in the evenings plus I don’t want him to start having long naps when I have to cut it in a few months anyway. I have tried the long naps a few weeks ago(for +-7 days) before starting him on the 1 hour nap( I was reluctant to try him on only 1 hour nap as he is so young, so I tried everything I could before doing the 1 hour nap) . Then I tried it last week for only 1 day and it was a disaster! He had 3 NWs, one of which was for 1.5 hours . :(
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Hi
LO is 21 months, and didn't nap at all today. I tried, she wouldn't, so I left it and asleep by 7pm. Tonight will probably be hellish.
She was doing 2 hrs, but we were getting EW to start with then really EW and now NW and EW, so tomorrow i will do one hour or 1.5 hrs and 7.30 bedtime.
If she has a 2 hr nap now, she's awake til about 8.40 / 9pm and then EW and NW whereas before I was getting 8-8am for a bit with a 2 hr nap. We are teething here, but it's impossible to get her back to sleep again as she so well rested from her nap, while before it was possible after an hour or so with meds.
Hmmm, it's all fun and games.
If it's any concilation our NW can be around 2 hrs right now. x
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Hiya, have you tried sticking with the 1hr nap but having it much later in the day, like 1-2pm? I think that would help. My DD has her nap at 1pm at the moment. I've noticed that if I put her down earlier her wakings creep earlier and earlier. And then she needs the nap early and we get into a vicious circle of early naps and EW. The timing of her nap really seems to matter and she just won't sleep to 7am if her nap is earlier than 1. So at the moment we have a longer A in the mornings and a slightly shorter A to bed.
I think the previous suggestion was good, if you can do a later bed as a once off to try and get a later morning and then move the nap later.
Hope this helps...
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I'm trying the above suggestion with some success, but cut to 1.5 from 2 hrs...seems to be helping her sttn.
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Gosh Ruby, your lo is the same age as M and she is already refusing her nap!?! M still needs his nap though, mainly because he wakes up so blooming early!
I knew I had to post here :) I have been avoiding posting as I’m tired of complaining about the same thing over and over again. It sounds like a plan ladies. So I will first try the ‘super late BT’ then if it doesn’t work I will start shifting his nap to 1pm. I have tried it twice( once before 1 hour nap and once when he was on 1 hour nap but it only lasted for 2 days both times and on the third day he crashed at 10:40/11am). I guarantee if/when I shift M’s day I will have to cut his nap again as he really needs his A time before BT otherwise he is so UT, jumping, playing in the cot etc….
Laura with the’ super late BT’ I don’t think M will sleep much later than 6am. Do you think this will be enough to shift his day?
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She didn't nap yday n slept from seven til 6.30am. No idea whats going on but ur little seems low sleep needs to me....like mine!
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Grants, I'm also thinking about super late bt. It might take a good few days to see the effects but the immediate effects might be perhaps more NWs. Be sure to do it with some fun acitivities for you and your DH as well. AND perhaps try to go to bed as soon as you put M down. Hopefully after a week or so, he will be tired enough to at least sleep 9.5h from the late bt, say, at 9:30. Write down a plan like so and discuss with DH about the plausibility and stick with it at least for a week (or specific time) before evaluating. (If you keep tweaking everyday, you will 1- go insane and 2- NOT be able to see if it might help).
Just make sure you and DH don't expect this late bt to magically shift it in a blink. But if it can get M to fall back to sleep after waking up at 5, that alone will be worth it because you can then start at shifting bt earlier! But the downside is that your evenings will be very short. xx
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Grants I actually meant a one off super late bedtime like 10pm, if he wakes before 7am then you treat it as an EW and I'm sure he'll go back to sleep!
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Laura, I did that many time but not intentional, but DS just woke at the same EW time, usually 5:00-5:30, and had much less sleep than usual and a few NWs also :(
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Hi Koe, I don't really tweak every day I always try to do at least for 7 days . I used to do it for 10 days but I haven't got much patient for it
These days.the last tweak was for 1 day as I want to see if he needed a longer nap as he was/is having very short nights but he had 3 nws and one of them was for almost 2 hours that's why I didn't do it the next day as he was not having nws with only one hour nap. But I normally don't tweak for a day. Laura ,I understood that you meant an one off super late Bt. That's what I intend to do. If it doesn't work I will then slowly shift his nap to 1 pm. Koe, I don't really want to do the super late bt for longer than a day. Miguel crashes and burns after 2 days and wants his naps too early (like 10am) defeating the objective that's why I want to try it only once.X
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I was just wondering as m seems to be doing all the same things my lobwas doing before I cut her day nap down. EW then two hrs of night waking. The bedtimes got later by default and yes she did sleep in later a wee bit but it was a hell of a night to get there and then had catch up nap then same thing wld start again.
It's tricky I know. My lo was on a four hr motorway journey last night starting at her bedtime n didnt fall asleep til 3 hrs later!!she was happy playing with her toes and singing then sttn. Wish I knew how to figure em out sometimes!
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I hope it works for you!! :) hugs xx
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Hi ladies,
Last post was bit rubbish as I posted from my phone. I only managed to get to a computer today.
Thanks Koe. TBH I don’t really think it will work, but I must try. There is no logic to M:( He woke up at 4:30am on Wednesday, 5:20am on Thursday and 4:30am today. We had the same BT and the same nap length every day so I why does he wake up at different times?????? ::)
This morning we brought him to our bed at 4:30am and he didn’t fall asleep again. Dh and I spent the whole hour trying to keep him quiet. I have never heard of a kid who doesn’t fall back to sleep when brought to the parents bed. *sign*
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Laura. Do you think I must let M nap longer on the day I try the’ super late BT’? I’m worried he might not be able to be awake until late on only 1 hour nap?
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Yes I definitely think let him sleep as long as he will.
We're also getting rubbish sleep again too - I told you our two were really separated at birth ::)
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No Kidding! M also had a NW last night I just didn't mention anything as I'm trying to deal with the EWs atm
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Love your avatar! He's gorgeous!
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Thanks Laura :) I finally managed to upload a pic :)
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Did you see the gro clock thread? ALl the hard core EW's slowly started waking later and later....
Pardon me if you have already been through this before.... he seems old enough for it at 1 year 8 months.
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M is indeed gorgeous! So sorry that u had 4:30wake up. :( DS won't fall asleep in our bed anymore either. Xx
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Haha, we had a 4.30 aswell. Tsk tsk n it's 2pm and she won't nap x
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Hugh and grants, I'm so sorry about your EW! :( it's so hard.
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Hi Eloyse. We have been using the groclock for the last 8 months :( it hasn't worked with M yet :( . Thank you for the support Koe. Ruby, h
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Sorry posting from phone so touched the wrong button by mistake. ... Ruby, how did it go today ? Did your lo have a nap in the end ? I put ds down at 9:40pm today. I wasn't planning to but he was in a very good mood so I took advantage of it. I wanted to hold him until 10pm but dh wanted to go to bed himself as we were all up at 4:30 this morning. Let's see how it goes .
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I had set the groclock to 7am (wishful thinking).No NWs and awake at 5:10am. I spent 1 hour 10 mins trying to get him to sleep again.At 6:20am he decided he had enough started crying pointing at the clock(I was in the room for the entire time, reminding him that we need to wait for mr sunshine). The crying wouldnt stop and he was also trying to climb out of the cot. Then by 6:43am I couldn't take it any longer and manually switch the clock on and took him out of the cot. I'm so mad at him! >:(Why everything in the sleep department has to be so blooming hard! Now what do I do with a kid who only had 7.5 hours sleep ???????? ::) wanted to do it again tonight as only one day doesn't feel like tweaking. It feels like I could get somewhere if I try for another few days??????(or is that just a gambler's feeling to keep on 'playing'until you win but it never happens and you lose all your money?) I wanted to try taking him swimming to keep him busy and put him down at 1 pm for the usual 1 hour nap and see if this will help to set the routine I want ? I'm not sure? M hardly gets OT so he might be able to cope with it. Any suggestions ?
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Hmm, well not so well. problem is now she's refusing a nap before 2pm (ouch) and then sleeps 2, but I have to wake her by three and she's very tired. She takes forever to fall asleep at bedtime (she cried until 9.30 from 7.30 on and off y'day and only then slept with me helping her) last night and then woke at 3am and took an hour to resettle but then slept until around 7am ish....then refuses nap at 1pm again.
We had later and later bedtimes and now naps are getting later. Eeeek.
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Grants - sorry I'm too late!
What did you decide? I think if it had have been me I would have done long nap and super late bed again just to see...
((((hugs)))))
Huby - do you have your own thread going? Might be worth starting one if not to get you some extra help, just so we don't confuse this one iyswim?
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I did but no one knew what to do so I gave up in the end. Sorry will just watch this one n take a step back
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You could start a new one? I'll hop on and am I'm sure grants will too :P
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Hi ladies. It has been so hectic changing M’s routine that I was too knackered to post last night.. lol
Yesterday, we did loads of stuff with him to stop him sleeping early. We went out by bus instead of car to avoid him sleeping in his car seat. He had his nap at 12:40 (1 hour 20mins) on the buggy. BT at 8:40pm ( he was exhausted so I could not hold him any longer).Groclock set for 6:30am. And………slept until 6:30am!!!! Yeah!!!! The latest wake up time ever!!!!! ;D After a super late BT and only 7.5 hours night plus 8:40pm Bt on the following day really tired him out.
Now my question is: If I give him 1 hour nap at 1pm will he be able to have BT at 7:30pm and still wake up at 6:30am again? 11 hours nights are extremely rare here. What do I do next? Do I cut his nap to 45 min instead and hope that he sleeps 11 hours night? I don’t mind having BT at 8/8:30pm for a few days but I wouldn’t like having such a late BT on a permanent basis. Is the answer to that to slowly cut his nap for the sake of a longer night?
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I would do the 1hr nap and bed at 8pm and see if that helps and do it for a few days.
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1 hour nap at 12:30. Bt at 8:40 again. He was quite happy and could be pushed to 9ish but I was too tired myself to do it. He is more likely to sleep between 9.5 to 10 hours night, that's why I put him down at 8:40 instead of 8pm. I hope it works again.
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Hoping for a long night for you all. :-*
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How did it go? X
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I hope it went well, too!
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Hi ladies, Yeah it did go well!!! :D groclock set for 6:30am. He wake up at 5:50 then Dh went in and managed to put him back to sleep ( a miracle as he* never* wants to go back to sleep once awake). He slept for another 30 mins then woke up (6:20am) crying and wanting out of the cot so we had a terrible 10 mins until ‘Mr Sunshine’ showed up. Overall very good results though! :D
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Good news!! :)
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Yay :D
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All going well (He still complains a lot if he wakes up before the clock but that is a minor problem compared to NWs/EWs). But BT has to be between 8:40 -9pm if I want him to have 9.5 nights. He won’t do more than that. Perhaps 10 hours on a good day. He is still on 1 hour nap but really hates to be woken up ( he also takes almost 30 mins to come around after I wake him up) but tbh I don't mind the battle of waking him up after 1 hour if it means no NWs and EWs. So what next?! I want to keep the routine the way it is at least for 14 days but I really think that 9 pm Bt is too late for us. Do you think it is wise to re-access the situation in a fortnight to see if I can start cutting the nap?
We have another problem now. DH keeps on being late for work ( he leaves at 7am) because Mr. Sunshine only shows up at 6:30am. Lol What a nice problem to have for once . ;D
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Hun I'm not sure that he'll be able to sustain himself on 10.5hrs sleep a day. I think if you are going to try the late bedtime for a while I would do a longer nap maybe 1.5hrs? I would perhaps do the late 9pm bedtime for another couple of days and then slowly bring it forward and cut nap at same time. So 8.45pm and 1hr 15mins nap, 8.30pm 1hr nap, then 8pm bedtime with 1hr nap and see what happens?
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Hun I'm not sure that he'll be able to sustain himself on 10.5hrs sleep a day
Do you think he will crash and burn soon? TBH I'm scared of changing anything now. What if I increase the naps and get NWs and EWs again?( last time I increased the nap for 1 day trial we had an awful night) He seems really happy all the way through BT. He is especially happy in the afternoons/evenings.
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Do you think he will crash and burn soon?
Yes :-\ 10.5hrs sleep in 24 is *really* low. I guess the other option is to keep the nap at an hr and slowly bring bedtime forward and see what happens?
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Ok . I think I will try that then. I'm actually scared of trying this tonight. We had 3 really good nights. I just don't want to
mess it up. Funnily enough he actually seems to be adjusting to the late bt as the first 2 nights he was really exhausted and went to sleep straight away whn placed in the cot but the last 2 nights You say 10.5 hours is really low. what is the average ?
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...Sorry posted from my phone so posted by mistake. I wanted to add that it took him a good few minutes to fall asleep on the last 2 days as he doesnt seem so exhausted anymore.
What's the average 24 hours sleep for a low sleep needs toddler?
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I would say at his age perhaps a 10.5 night and a 1-1.5hr nap would be low sleep needs.
The taking longer to fall asleep may just be one of those things, I had the same with O last night. Usually out in seconds - last night more like 5mins!
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Gosh Laura M is 1 hour off the mark. He is only getting 10.5 instead of 11.5 :o
Laura, but I’m a bit confused as M has been on 10.5 for months??????? The only difference now is that he doesn’t wake up at 4:30/ 5am anymore. We shifted his day forward with the super late BT+ the later nap( at 12:30 or 1pm), but otherwise the total sleep is the same. ???
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That's why I wondered about slowly bringing bedtime forward, hoping he'll still sleep in till the normal time but will catch up on a bit more at the beginning of the night.
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Managed to put him down at 8:05pm asleep by 8:10. Let's see what happens. He was in a bad mood this evening. Hands in his mouth etc. I looked in his mouth and saw I tooth coming through. Poor kid. I gave him neurofen at BT I hope it helps.
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I had an odd nw. M woke up at 11pm crying ( very desperate crying ) I had to pick him up as he was panicking . Took him to our bed and when he calmed down I took him back to his cot. ( at 11.35pm)Then sttn ????? I thought he was going to have a horrendous night but it wasn't that bad. Such a weird nw ? AnywayvIt's now 5:55am and he is still sleeping .
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Probably his teeth or perhaps a bad dream? What time did he wake?
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Yeah, I also thought it was a bad dream as if it was teething he would have woken up the whole night.He woke up at 6:10 and waited until 6:30 for Mr sunshine. ( for once he didn't cry asking to come out of the cot.I just had to go in when he started crying but then waited with him in the room without major drama). Because of the NW he ended up having the same total sleep even though I put him down earlier .
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Ok but a positive start esp. as it wasn't one of his normal NWs.
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3 nws after another earlish BT. :( his tooth is out ,but I still medicated at Bt just in case. Perhaps it was the Neurofen? It is not easy on the stomach. Anyway,I won't medicate tonight to see if it makes a difference and if I get more nws I will go back to 8:40-9pm BT.
Laura, my gut feeling says that M might go through 1-0 much earlier than most kids. I will have to re-evaluate after 14 days but I can't / dont really want to have very late BT for the sake of 1 hour nap.
What do you reckon?
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Btw love your avatar . lol
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Hi grants, just caught up with the latest. First off, go with your instinct. We all know that mama's instincts are the best, ask Laura ;). Shall we try cutting nap to 45mins, and moving bt to 8:30? I am also trying to move DS's bt earlier but I do notice every time making major shift, like more than 30mins, I would get a lot more problems, like major tantrum/refusal at bt, ending up in tears for all of us, well not literally but ykwim.
Or cut it down to 30 mins and bt at 8:15? Xx
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Hi Koe!
I will wait at least 2 or 3 weeks before doing anything.I don't want to make changes right now as I have already made major changes with routine. I will give him a break for now. Poor kid. lol
BTW I saw in Laura's thread that you already have a very late BT. Does your lo have naps? If so, for how for long does he nap for?
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Seriously what is going on? M had his 1 hour nap as usual today . He had a super busy day . I even took him swimming this afternoon. I tried putting him down at 8 pm and he is not going down. He is happy and chatty . No signs of tiredness at all????? What is going on ? I took him out of his cot and switched the groclock back on as there is no way this kid is going to go to sleep anytime soon. The thing is he def needs his nap. I can't imagine him not having a nap. How weird? Is that the beginning of 1-0 ? How do I deal with this ?
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You don't think it's adrenaline kicking in from not enough sleep? :-\ Perhaps you could try a no nap day and an early night and see what happens?
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I gave my lo a half hour in the car today. Awake by 1. 30pm and she fell asleep for the firsttime in weeks in ten mins without crying and fussing and that was at seven. Will let u know how it goes. Xx
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It could be Laura. I think he was just making fun of me really. Dh took him to bed 15 mins after I tried and he fell asleep. I seriously can't manage a day with no nap. That's one thing I'm 100% sure we can't do. Perhaps he is not ready for 1-0 yet as I know many kids who actually refuse their nap. M hasn't refused it yet. He can keep on going as he can handle A times better now that he is older but as soon as I do a quiet time or put him the pushchair or car seat etc at nap time he is off in seconds.
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BTW I saw in Laura's thread that you already have a very late BT. Does your lo have naps? If so, for how for long does he nap for?
Hey Grants, sorry for not replying earlier. DS is definitely having naps for about 1h40 and back to sleeping 11h but at bt 9pm, or sometimes 11h30! But we had 5:30 EWs plus multiple NWs from 8-23mo! Suddenly at 23 mo, he was sleeping longer if I could put him down at 7pm and not a min late, almost 12h nights with 2h nap. That lasted a good few months and then things just changed again. He was basically on a total A time of 10h and then he could sleep 12h at night and now he can go on much longer and can handle OT with minor NWs that I can deal with and go back to sleep! But it is very hard to have decent A time now as he is waking up so late!
So I think DS was just OT all those months constantly, so I couldn't tell anymore if he's behaving differently. Once he's sleeping more, he has become much happier and much easier to handle. I really couldn't believe that he could sleep so long. We had a rough 3 weeks abo ut 2 weeks ago that he had very short nights again, so it was tantrums after tantrums. It could be due to teeth and/or chickenpox.
How was today?
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How are things? Hoping you are at least still getting STTN.
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Thanks for asking ladies :)
I’m having a hard time with everything atm. M’s behaviour is shocking! Everything is a battle! (it started before the teething and the pain is just not helping the matter). NWs are back as he is teething (there is nothing I can do about the NWs now :( ). EWs are gone but now he is going to bed too late. I want to change this but I need to wait for the teeth to come through first . He needs at least 6.5 A time before BT . Early BT used to work when he was younger but now it is impossible to do it as he def needs his A time before going to bed.
Oh well what can you do?!?!?!
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Can you try and earlier nap - also I would def let him nap longer than the hour.
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If I give him the nap earlier he might go back to his Ews again though. We put a lot of effort in shifting his day and he is finally napping later than he used to be. I'm worried we might regress again if he naps earlier. He needs 6.5 hour A time with 1 hour nap god knows how long he can keep going with a longer nap????? I think we are kind of stuck ATM. :(
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What does his day look like? How long is he sleeping at night and is it straight through/
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I think it's a second wind at bedtime. Really 6.5 hrs is a really super long time. My kid included, super low sleep needs. He can only do it if we keep him stimulated enough and keep going. But that's because he's full of adrenaline and those hormones that push through tiredness. We are super struggling on a short nap here as it is. It is fine for a day or so and then the behaviour gets shocking and things go a$$ over teakettle.
I know you are trying to curb the EW, believe me I tried everything too, but sometimes you have to accept the short night/long nap combo until they are ready to make the shift.
(((hugs)))
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I know you are trying to curb the EW, believe me I tried everything too, but sometimes you have to accept the short night/long nap combo until they are ready to make the shift.
(((hugs)))
ITA with Wendy - unfortunately this was the way with DD for a long time... HUGS
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Laura, M doesn't really have a fixed wake up time. He can wake up anywhere between 6:10-6:50 am. The thing that is really nice is that he can go back to sleep in the morning now, something he has never done in the past. So he goes to bed between 8:20-8:40 pm and wakes up most days at 6:40am(if he wakes up before Mr Sunshine(6:30am) he goes back to sleep and we let him sleep past the clock if he will. He is doing an average of 10 hours night + 1 hour nap. He does STTN. Last night was really bad as he kept waking up in pain. But thank God he actually went to bed at 7:10 pm tonight. He def needs to catch up because of last night.
Wendy and Karen, thank you for the replies and encouragement. ;). M's problem is not only EWs but also NWs. The only way I managed to stop the NWs was with 1 hour naps. I have tried everything in the past and didn't really want to give him 1 hour nap because of his age but this was the only thing which stopped the NWs. Before the 1 hour nap he would be awake for hours during each night due to UT, I now know. So long naps is not an option for us as this will def bring those horrible NWs back.I'd rather put him down earlier and I try it everything single night but he wouldn't have it but tonight thanks to the bad teething night he went down at 7:10am.
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Sorry I meant to say tonight he went to bed at 7pm not 7am. lol
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Terrible night again even though he went down at 7pm. He is medicated but it still doesn’t make a difference. Up at 5:50am this morning and went back to sleep until 6:10am.
He is going to nursery today and I left up to the carer to judge his nap time and length. I said to her that doesn’t matter what we do today with his nap he will still have NWs so he might as well have a good rest.
His behaviour was shocking this morning! :o He saw an empty pot of yogurt, I ate last night, on my bedside so he decided that he want one too. But he wanted to eat it upstairs all by himself. We said no as it would make a mess on the carpet. So we took him downstairs, sat him down and gave him his yogurt.He wouldn’t have it and cried for 35mins non-stop as he wanted to eat the yogurt on his own term! ::) Argh!! To top it off he had a major tantrum at nursery because I forgot to let him put his backpack on his peg ::) Anyway I’m glad he has gone to nursery today. I couldn’t take him like that today. I had him the whole day yesterday and I’m knackered because of the behaviour. This morning I left nursery crying, I feel so drained. I never knew this was going to be so difficult. :'(
This behaviour thing is not even a sleep issue as he has been doing well on 1 hour nap for the last 2 months. It is def a developmental thing. He only does that to us. We spent last Sunday at the ILs and his behaviour was like a dream. It is just the teething pain which is not helping at all. So for now I will give him a good nap because of the teething and then I will need your help again to get back on track. :P
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Hi ladies, I have to be brief as I'm on the move and typing on my phone .
M was teething so I wasn't doing the 1 hour naps anymore. Last week I was letting him nap up to 2 hours. We learned a few weeks ago that M has to have the minimum of 6.5 hours A time before bed if we wanted to avoid BT drama. ( even when he was on 1 hour nap , with 2 hours nap is a bit harder to put him down but we enforced it anyway otherwise Bt was getting later and later). We accepted that.
Now he is having EWs again :( The problem is that he is also having short nights as he won't accept bed before 6.5 A time. I tried earlier nap and putting him to bed at 7am but then he was up at 5:30 am.
I thought EWs was shorted :( good wake up times only lasted for 2 weeks and are now Ews are back again ????? I don't know how to tweak anymore as his nap is as late as it can be ( to avoid EWs ) and his BT is also really late these days. ( 8 pm for a 1 hour nap and 9 pm for 2 hours nap ). Yesterday I asked nursery to give him s 1.5 hours nap and BT was at 8pm and he woke up at 5:40 this morning.
I appreciate suggestions . Thank you for reading.x
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Btw he is not teething anymore .
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I also forgot to mention that Nws are also back. So last night he had 9.5 night sleep ( 8pm- 5:40 )but had a 1.5 hour Nw so leaving us with a 8 hours night if we count the long Nw. ::)
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Ouch, do you think it could have been the weather. LO was up for two hours the first bout of hot nights and then up four times the second but STTN last night. It was so uncomfortably hot in her room and she ended up with heat rash everywhere too. Just a thought? I really hope tonight is better for you x
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I'm not sure Grants! Hugs though - will think on it and hope you can all get some rest soon.
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Thanks for the hugs Karen ;)
I'm hoping someone will have a suggestion soon. I asked nursery to give him another 1.5 hour nap today as I have no clue what to do and he actually needs to catch up a bit but he can't really nap for too long either otherwise BT will end up at 11pm or something silly. So I thought 1.5 was a good compromise?????
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I wish I knew what to suggest... my feeling is he'll be like O until the nap is gone and we had a long NW last night too - obviously something in the air! I think ours was down to preschool and OS as he was chatting away to himself, saying how he needs to go to the dr and then to the chemist to get his scription ::) you can tell what he spends his life doing poor little thing!
I would suggest that you go back to longer nap - stick with 1.5hrs and try and get it earlier and then your bedtime will hopefully be earlier - so maybe a noon nap and then 7.30pm bed?
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I wonder if a lady named Traci that used to be here is still around at all. She had a son named Cole (and then a second son I believe) and no matter what she did, Cole still had sleeping/NW/EW issues. The general consensus was that he might just have these issues until he was ready to drop the nap. This was like 4 years ago and I'm not sure what ended up happening - I can try to find some old posts?
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Ladies thanks for coming on:) I really need the support ATM . Laura I think it is really impossible to get M down any earlier at BT . He really needs his A times. If he was a bit older I would feel inclined to cut his nap altogether . Although he might be ready for it now as I have always had to push him on the transitions as he never seems to be ready/ know how to go through himself ????? I really don't know. I think I'm going to have to take one day at the time :(
Karen thank you soooooooo much for your kind offer. I would love to know what went on etc....
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Btw sorry about your Nw Laura. Although I found it super sweet O's talking in his sleep. X
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I did just find this old thread, Grants. I feel like more came after this though. Can keep looking... http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=92528.0
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This is her profile - maybe something here can help you or you can PM her? http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?action=profile;u=13190
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Thank you Karen :) I will have a look on her posts.
Do you guys think he is too young to start the 1-0 ? I know the answer is no but given the circumstances ? This Monday he had only 30 mins nap, accidentally as he was on the pushchair and he napped from 11:30 to 12. That was the day I managed to put him down at 7pm. He actually asked to go down at 7 for the first time in weeks. So on that day he had 30 mins nap and 7 hours A time before BT and only then he would feel really tired to go down ??????
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No I don't think he's too young. It's not the norm but some kids have dropped their naps by or before 2. I think Deb's kids did actually! Maybe he would do best for now on a 30-45 minute nap? So hard to say.
We are having a rough go lately too. For days now DS hasn't napped more than an hour and 15-20 minutes (he used to sleep 1.5-2 easily). Today only 45 minutes and that's after a bad night. Le sigh.
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I thouht my LO was dpoing the 1-0 at age 2, as it turns out it was the 2 year molars moving about, and after a month or so he went back to sleeping well.
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Sorry about the hard time Karen. I wish Deb could give me some insight into the situation :(
Eloyse , M never really slept well. It's always something with him. This time is not teeth as he has just had his 4 incisors .
1.5 hour nap yesterday and 9.5 hours night. Not a bad total for him . But he was up at 5:20am this morning. ( I'm going to have to change the groclock again as 6:30 is not an option anymore. Dh has to sit with him Until sunshine comes on and 1 hour waiting in his room with him is not a option ) We are knackered ! He went down at 8 and up at 5:20. We have no life :( . Do I go back to 1 hour nap ? What do I do ?
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On a positive note: No Nws last night :) I just don't get why I'm soooo tired as we didn't have a bad night?????
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It often
Just catches up on you, I remember those nights well. Has he always EW as this will make a difference
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Had M on the pushchair this morning, to go to de doctor, and he fell asleep on the way back at 10:15am. I transferred him to the cot and will let him sleep for as long as he like (as it is quite early) and will put him down at 8pm again , unless he shows any sign of wanting to go to bed earlier . I’m just soooooo tired of controlling/tweaking M’s sleep and never ever get any results :( So its a ‘whatever day' today :(
Sorry about the rant ladies.
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If hes always been an ew he may continue to do so whatever though Ive heard u can push it to more reasonable times. My friends lo is 2 and woke at five each morn now it's 6 or more likely 6.30. She gave up tweaking as hes always been an early riser n naps two hrs a day instead. It just depends on whether they've always ew or not sometimes x
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Y'know, sometimes 'whatever' days can be a good thing! I've had lots of those recently! ;)
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My friends lo is 2 and woke at five each morn now it's 6 or more likely 6.30. She gave up tweaking as hes always been an early riser n naps two hrs a day instead. It just depends on whether they've always ew or not sometimes x
The problem is M's A times Huby. He needs long A times before BT so if he has long naps our BT is going to end up 9:30 or 10pm. I can't cope with late BTs . I'd rather cut his nap altogether instead of having late BTs.BTW he has always been a early riser since birth.
Ladies, he woke up at 11:30am from his nap today (1.15 hours nap). I wanted to put him down at 7pm so I entered his room at 6:45pm thinking he would be asleep by 7pm. It took him 30 mins to fall asleep( No drama this time.He just wasn't tired enough) This kid is never tired :o :o 8 hours A time with only 1.15 nap and he still took 30 mins to fall asleep. ::)
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Oh Huby I meant to ask, how is your lo doing these days? Is she sleeping better?
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Grants do you know after reading your post on Wendy's thread I wonder if you should just *try* the no nap - we did probably at a similar age and this is what happened - great night sleeping for about a week and then it just fell apart again. It's really only now with no nap and an older child that things have improved.
Given he typically is a good napper (unlike O) perhaps try the nap no nap scenario unless you are going to be able to have him in bed at say 5.30pm?
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I agree. Honestly I don't think it's that M isn't tired, I really think he's likely overtired but just doesn't know how to settle himself. He's sleep totals are exceedingly low for a kid his age. Not to say that he can't be low sleep needs but since you also see behavioral issues, I do believe that's related to his sleep. Kids just need a lot of sleep - especially those with busy days ala daycare.
What does your day look like right now? Can you post awake, nap and then asleep by - sorry if it's elsewhere in the thread :-)
I think you could try a no nap day just to see how far he gets without one. For F it's around 10 hrs and then his body just gives out and he crashes. So as you can see the issue with that, unless he's magically going to do 14 hrs at night, we're stuck with a nap.
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I'm not sure I'd go to no nap yet. You haven't really tried less than a one hour nap right? Maybe go for 30-45 minutes and see if that gets you a reasonable BT and decent night?
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Hi ladies , thank you for posting :) just to make it clear. I wouldn't like to rush with 1-0 as I do think he is a bit young for that+ he is not resisting the nap yet. But it bothers me that he has such short nights+EWs+NWs and won't go down early at BT either! That's why I wondered about cutting the nap, hoping he would have decent nights and decent BT time and no Nws of course. Lol
He never liked much sleep since he was a baby TBH. He was super alert when he was a newborn and wouldn't sleep much. Thanks to BW I managed to 'teach' him how to nap but I have to accept that this is his nature. I agree with you ,Wendy, about kids needing sleep but M is def on the bottom of the scale , unfortunately :(
Its hard to talk about his routine ATM as we haven't been back on track properly since last set of teeth. I would say he wakes up at around 5:20am naps for 1 -1.5 hours at around 12:30pm and goes to bed at 8pm.
Let's see what you girls think.
Laura, was O fighting/ refusing his nap when you tried a no nap approach?
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Nope never refused nap and was still napping at 11.30am ! Moved nap back a bit made no difference. He was just taking longer to settle at bed and still having NWs etc.
I think you have 2 choices - longer earlier nap OR trial nap cut / no nap and early bed.
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See. This is the same with M, he doesn't refuse his naps but he is taking ages to settle at BT. Like today for example we tried to put him down earlier. Dh Entered the room at 6:50pm it's now 7:40pm and he is still awake. There was a time,when he was younger ,that he would accept earlier BTs to catch up for lost sleep and 2-1 transition. But he can handle his A times much better now so it's impossible to have early or even normal BT time :(
What about shorter naps ? Have you tried those ? I thought O was a bit older than M (2.5 YO)when you tried no nap?
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Yes he was but I did try it around 18mths as well in desperation! Like I said the no nap worked for about a week. We didn't really do nap cuts - just now do car naps or whatever.
I'm really not convinced he's UT though :-\ Although easy for me to say I know. How about trying a 30min nap and 7pm bedtime.
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I have a low sleep needs LO and she takes a one hr nap and does an 8 or 7.45 bedtime with a post 7 am wake up. I did try a nap cut recently n it worked. If she takes anything more she chronically ew s and takes ages to settle at bedtime x
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Why don't you think he is UT Laura ? Wendy also says the same. Lol seriously if I take into account who he is since birth plus the fact that he used to feel tired to have early BTs and now just isn't tired enough to go to sleep anymore. If he was OT long naps would sort it right?! But he only took long naps without messing his BT when he was teething now that he not teething he just seems too rested with all the sleep,
, even 1.5 hours seems too much for him these days . Trust me on this . It's not the lack of trying to give him more sleep, I really wish he would sleep longer but is not up to me these days. All i can do is offer but he doesn't take it.
I think I would be more inclined towards 45 or 30 mins nap like Karen suggested. I just think he can't handle no nap yet. A few months down the line might be another story but right now he won't be able to handle it . He has STTN the last 3 nights with 1.5 hours nap!!!! It's just the settling at BT which is the problem ATM hence the nap cut.
Huby , your lo seem to be doing well now . 7 am wake up time is fantastc!!! :D
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In which case Grants you have to go with your gut, I can only tell you of our experience ::) !!
I would try the 45min nap first as it's a more natural time to wake him. Good luck! :-*
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Thanks Laura. I will do it when we are both ready. I'm not with it at the moment as the allergy treatment I'm going through is affecting my hormones etc.... I will go with the flow for now until I feel better. Plus after reading Karen's comment on Wendy's thread I think we don't have much hope with M as kids this age dont seem to catch up on sleep ??????So we might just have to put up with the EWs, short nights and BT resistance for now until he gets older ????? IDK ???? We will have to see. But as long as he doesnt have NWs I think we will be able to cope.
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"Some" kids don't tack until older - some do. Hard to say which kind M is until you try! But yes, no NWs is a good thing!
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Grants, great on no NW. Yes, my LO is doing well at the mo, but it's never totally consistent with her so Im not holding my breath, but a one hr max nap at 1-2pm and then a 8pm bedtime is working and giving so much less BT resistance than her old 1.5 hr nap and 7.30pm bedtime - in which case we had 2 hrs of bedtime struggles minimum.
Teeth did play a part, but masked by all that was a change in her sleep needs and developmentally shes changed hugely too so perhaps all in all it goes with her sleep needs changing. Some kids just need less sleep.
One thing though Grants, is that before we had the bedtime struggles we were seeing earlier and earlier wake-ups...then later BTs.
Nap refusals have only happened a few times, I can count them on one hand so that's not always a clear indicator of whether they are ready to have their nap slashed or not. I'd personally go with the struggles at bt means nap to long theory.
They can be well-rested at nap time, but then if you have a BT struggle, then take longer to fall asleep and lose valuable nighttime sleep. It takes a while for them to adjust and we had to APOP her back to sleep often in the early hours until she did.
Just a thought, I know they're all different which is why it's so bleedin' hard. Stick in there tiger, you're doing you're best. x
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Grants, big hugs on feeling crappy after the treatment. I have been very tired, too but at least i am not I'll.
Like Karen said, some kids tag on sleep at night and some can do it when they are much older, mine is such and during the chronic waking months, he was so OT all the time, very much like M that I never thought he was tired. When he was so sleep deprived it's hard for him to tag on the sleep.
You might ask how we got rid of the OT monster? It wasnt until DS started getting ill a lot and he got so tired and slept more, then was he really exhausted enough to sleep longer and after illness, he could sleep a tad bit longer.
I hope that M can sleep longer soon!
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Thanks for sharing Huby and Koe! :)
Score last night = 9.5 hours night+ 2 Nws + Ew . :(
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Aww b*g*er, I'm sorry to hear about that. What have you decided to do?
x
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Big hugs!! Grants, you have holidays now if I understand correctly. Why not choose a night before nursery day and try long nap and early bt? If it doesn't help, you could catch up with some sleep during the day and back to whatever you were doing. We were too scared to try super early bt but I got no help back then in the day at all. What do u think?
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What have you decided to do?
Why not choose a night before nursery day and try long nap and early bt? If it doesn't help, you could catch up with some sleep during the day and back to whatever you were doing. We were too scared to try super early bt but I got no help back then in the day at all. What do u think?
I’m going with the flow Huby and Koe . I haven’t got the energy to tweak atm. I’m in the middle of a treatment which is ‘killing’ me. I’m very irritable, impatient, tired and anxious lately. So I’m not in the frame of mind for doing a tweak and stick with it for a few days. Iykwim
M is also ill atm. He has caught a cold and has conjunctivitis as well so I’m giving him as much sleep as I can (I hope he takes it) as there is no point tweaking when he is sick. I also find it easier to put him down at BT when he is not well. BT resistance is more common when he is not sick. So long naps will be fine for now, I at least hope.
He went down for a nap at 11am this morning and I’m letting him sleep as much as he likes and BT will be at 8pm and if he feels tired before 8pm I can put him down earlier then.
Thank you so much for all your support lovely ladies :) Please continue to hold my hand. xxxx
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Oh no! Big hugs to you and M!! Xx
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Why don't you think he is UT Laura ? Wendy also says the same. Lol seriously if I take into account who he is since birth plus the fact that he used to feel tired to have early BTs and now just isn't tired enough to go to sleep anymore. If he was OT long naps would sort it right?!
No. Just because he isn't sleeping does not mean he isn't tired. That's the one thing I have learned through all of this. Sleep is about 90% developmental if you ask me. The other 10% gives us something to work with. And yes some kids are low sleep needs, from the beginning maybe, or some can become lower sleep needs as they go. But I would not chalk up him not sleeping to being UT all the time or not needing/wanting the sleep. Kids always need way more sleep than we think they do, and they have studies that show this time and time again. He's surviving on it because it's what he knows and he hasn't worked out how to take more when offered.
You are right though; you can only offer the conditions conducive to good sleep habits. A tweak here and there may help for a day here and there or you may even get spells where it just goes along tickety boo...only to end up at the same place. It's not easy at all but it sounds like you are keeping an open mind as possible, which is the one way I have tried to make it through this. We're still standing after all this time, Laura, Koe, Karen, me...and so will you be. We're here for all the venting and cursing along the way :-)
(((hugs))) and double ((((hugs)))) for the illness, that sucks!
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Thanks for the post Wendy;) it really means a lot! :)
Quick update: he only napped for 1.5 today, even though I was willing to let him nap fir as long as he would( 11 to 12:30). Asleep by 6:45pm!!! I entered the room at 6:30 and it only took him 15 mins to fall asleep !Yeah!!!! I finally managed an early BT!!! It took me 1.5 hours quiet time but I did it!!! :D I miss early BTs hehehe
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Hoping for a good night for u!!! Now u go to sleep yourself hehe
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Awesome with the early BT!
And yes, we are here for you the whole way!
Still thinking there could be a physical component here? In addition to developmental?
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Hoping for a good night. :-*
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Thank you ladies !!!
I'm not sure if it's developmental or ilness Karen ????? I never know with this kid. Even when there is nothing going on he still give us a hard time with his sleep . I have done the maths and it doesn't look that good though . I mean with the early BT. He had to have 6 hours A time( it's normally what does anyway) + 1.5 hours quiet time to be able to go to bed early plus he had an early nap, so it wasn't a victory at all :(
Update: awake at 5am on the dot. So 1.5 hour nap+ 10 hour night= 11.5 total sleep. It is the best he can do tbh. I dont expect much more from him. The good thing is that there was no NWs!! ( I gave him meds at BT as i didn't want him to be uncomfortable with the cold/ conjunctivitis ). I don't think we will be able to get rid of the EWs tbh. we are going to have to live with it until he is a bit older????? Poor groclock,has never served Its purpose at our house. We can't even leave him by himself in the room as he can get out of the cot. So this morning, for example, DH had to go in at 5 am to wait fir the groclock which is set for 6am *sign* I'm going to have to change the time again. Perhaps 5:30*sign*. Perhaps we should open a thread of support for groclock unsuccessful stories ? Lol
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Oh dear... I was hoping that you could take advantage of him being ill and get some more sleep in him! If you want him to wake at 6, and he can only do 10h night, then 8 would be the ideal bt. Is that still too late for u?
I guess accepting is definitely going to help. Cnstant puzzling and tweaking takes a lot of energy. We also gave up from around 21mo, just so that we could live and try to enjoy life a little. M perhaps does need a long wind down, maybe that would be the way to go to avoid very late bt. Hugssss
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8 pm BT is Okish. I would rather have 7 or 7:30pm. But Oh well we can't have all we want. ::)
I had to put him down at 6:30 last night because he had an early nap( 11am). So I made the most of it and tried to get him down earlier to help him catch up. But of course he won't . He is feeling much better though. It was only a very mild cold. Plus the conjunctivitis is also better after being 3 days on meds. I must admit 11.5 hours sleep is the best total he has done in weeks , perhaps months ( probably due to the ilness) and he won’t sleep much more than that TBH. It is useless trying to fight against his nature.
M perhaps does need a long wind down, maybe that would be the way to go to avoid very late bt. Hugssss
Yeah I wil def invest on longer wind down ( I already knew that and we normally used to do more or less 45 mins wind down with him) But It will have to be in conjunction with 6/ 6.5 A time otherwise we always have resistance. He just won’t go down with less A time *sign* ::)
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Yeah fighting isn't what we want. Hopefully you can arrange the day in a way that suit all of you!! :)
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Just going with the flow, not beating yourself up and just trying to sleep when he does sounds like a plan. I'm wishing you better and sending plenty of hugs. You have one lovely, happy boy there from what I can see on the avatar. Well done you, it's so hard when they just don't sleep. I know it drove me mad for the year and a half she didnt and you must be totally exhausted. You're right just letting it be. He'll grow into sleeping more xx
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Thanks Huby :)
Another 5 am wake up+ 2 nws . Total sleep 10.5 ( 1.5 nap + 9 hours night)He went down at 7:45pm( dh put him down I wasn't home) it's almost impossible to put him down early on nursery days. He is just too wound up to relax plus he goes down at 12 when he is in nursery so it's a bit later than the 11ish nap I can offer at home.
I realise that if I want him to have a minimum total sleep of 11.5. I have to put him down earlier for a nap and early BT. He will wake up at 5 doesn't matter what I do :( when he sees any sort of day light through underneath the door he will not go back to sleep *sign* he know it's morning and that's it. And that's is another thing that drives me mad! He *won't *go back to sleep and he won't wait for Mr sunshine either . I'm actually off to the groclock support thread now Grrrrr
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I have a towel under the door and complete total blackout in her room
And that helps a lot. Can give u details if u like xx
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You could put a rolled up towel outside his door to block out that crack of light - not sure it'll solve the issue but it may.
I don't think hun he is just like O and until you work out whether it's discomfort or the nap you'll have to do what you can. I actually would just suggest the early bedtime at least then if he wakes in the night he may lie in?
Posted same time as Huby about the towel!
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Thank you ladies :) I will def try the towels. I still think he senses its day as it is not pitch black like night iykwim?! We do have black out curtains but it's not the same as night. But I will def try the towel tonight and will let you know how it goes .x
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I have actually - after LOADS of research found a blackout blind that does give you TOTAL blackout and I'm talking you can't even see your hand in front of you. I use that, and then a rolled up towel under the door.
I can give you details if you like because madam was the same and waking at the slightest suggestion of daylight, but this does work. PM if you want me to give you then name and sure advertising on he forum is a no no.
You can also try cardboard on the window - not a great look but i've done this while we're away and it's worked. Or throw a blanket over the curtain rail after he's gone to sleep so it blocks out more daylight and see if that helps. Some people use tin foil too.
I went for this specific option though as is permanent and looks nice too.
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Sunlight is definitely a problem for us until I got foil on windows plus black out curtains!!! We also use a rolled up big towel for the door!!
Not sure if it applies to you, but I also figured that when we turned off white noise, DS would always wake, it was around 11:30. I found out that the little clock I had in there to watch for bt and NW and EW, etc was ticking so loud that it disturbed him. Groclock probably doesn't make a sound. But light was the worst!!!
Posted the same time as Huby! It is definitel worth trying.
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Thanks Huby ;) We are using a dark blanket over the blackout curtain ATM and it still doesn't work :( I put a towel today as suggested I hope it helps though. I'm not very keen on buying another blackout curtain at this point in time as this is our second one and we could do with saving some money ATM. By all means please PM me the link I perhaps can keep it for future reference.
I'm saying it might be the daylight but tbh I'm not sure if it's as he used to have the same EWs even in winter ??????? I think I subconsciously try and find a reason for the EWs to make myself feel better :(
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Hi Koe , posted the same time as you. Lol groclock doesn't make any noise. X
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I also wondered but we had EW and NW also in winter but these foil really helped!! Hehe Can it be sounds of birds?? Garbage trucks or buses which start running around 5???
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Garbage collection doesn't happen that early in our area. The foil can look really dodgy Koe lol. People will think that I grow marijuana. Haha. We did have some paper on the widown in the past but it drove me mad trying to take the paper off every morning.
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I was worried that my neighbors opposite might complain but they haven't! I guess I am beyond caring about physical appearance and it goes for myself also.. Hmmm not good LOL
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Lol. Same here for the appearance. I need to lose some weight but can't be bothered dieting :(
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Lol it isnt just the weight, hair, clothes, just the general appearance!! ...rather sad :(
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At least you ladies have an excuse...
As for the blind - it's around £24, it's not really a blind per say. It's a large piece of thinck cream blackout material (looks like normal material) and you attach it to the PVC bits at the side of your windows using removable velcro). The velcro comes off using nail varnish remover or anything with acetate, but otherwise stays in place)
So it sticks to the actual pains and therefore a) looks good, b) achieves total blackout c) during the day, you just roll it up and clip it in place (I use clothes pegs in wood with little dinosaurs on them to match her non blackout blind)
Anyway, it works and you get total blackout without the dodgy look.
As for appearance. I need to lose a stone and a half, dye my hair and shave my legs (and I'm getting my sleep now)...what's my excuse!
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1 Nw +4.30 wake up.The towel didnt make a difference. Its not even that bright this morning. Its cloudy and raining.
I know I said I would go with the flow but this is ridiculous !!!! He was asleep at 7:45pm last night( this is the earliest I can managed on nursery days as he is just so wound up to go down early ). He is on a 1.5 nap. Perhaps it's too long . He is with me today . What should I do? The only way this kid sleeps a bit longer in the morning is when i push him too hard with short naps and late BT. I had enough of this!!!!Argh!!!!
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And God help me today.4:30am wake up and M is with me the whole day plus it's raining ::)
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I took him out this morning and he slept in the pushchair at 9:50am on the way back home.(I’m not surprised after 9 hours night and 4:30 wake up) ::) I will leave him to sleep. He could do with catching up and I could do with the break :P
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Oh no!!!! More hugs!! I wonder if kinesiology can ask his body what he needs to sleep longer, like our friend who needed to lose weight to qualify for competitive sport and got the answer from kinesiologist on what not to eat to lose the weight and it worked!!!
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Perhaps I can ask my practitioner tomorrow . I was going to ask her to test him fir serotonin . Perhaps I can ask her to ask that ? Not sure she would do it ? Do you think that Naet practitioner would do that kind of thing ?
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Haven't read through all the thread but have you tried shortening the nap a little? Sounds like it's a bit too long and eating into his nights. There's only so much these kids will sleep!
I think we use the same blinds as you huby! They're great.
x
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I don't know what her background is. I think mine was trained in kinesiology, quantum touch, etc, so she is doing all the asking. You can perhaps ask if she could find out what is causing him to wake in the night? Perhaps why is he sleeping so little at this young age. Just wondering..
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Mine also does all the asking . I think they all do as it's part of the whole Naet principles. I will try and ask tomorrow. I will also ask to test him for serotonin.
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To be honest I was having the same wake ups at 4.30am for weeks n weeks and bedtime battles for hrs until
I cut the nap for an hour n eventually she did sleep in x
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Huby we have been there with the 1 hour nap. The problem is that his total / overall sleep doesnt improve with 1 hour nap. He doesnt tack. I'm trying to give him some more sleep, iykwim. He is a chronic early riser though. Not even with 1 hour nap helped with the EWs.
We had a good night last night. No NWs !!! Early nap at 9:50am(1.45 hour nap) + asleep at 6:30pm at BT ( after 7 hours A time ). He woke up at 4:50am. Total sleep 12hours. That's much better overall sleep. I think NWs are more common on nursery days as we don't have such a long wind down routine and he is too wound up on those days. He is spirited after all . Monday he was with me the whole day and we he had a long wind down and no Nws. It was the same yesterday and we had no Nws. Who knows with this kid?????
Today I'm going to have to cut his nap as he will have to nap a bit later due to an appointment we have today.
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Grants, I think u have hit a very key point. It's the wind down which is part of the routine, not schedule. I used to rush and rush to meet a bedtime. On daycare days, already too late to get home, after dinner, bath, bedtime was just a hyper mess and me rushing to put DS to bed didn't help at all. So perhaps on those days, try to continue with the long wind down to see if it helps. What do u think?
I thought NAEt only uses kinseiology to test whether the body accepts a substance or not, the healing process is based on Chinese medicine and acupuncture. There are practitioners whose background is in other disciplines of medicine, ie, chiropractor, homeopath, or others might be not so full on with kinesiology. I hope you get some answers today! Hugs
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I already do a long wind down on nursery days.but he seems very wound up on those days. Perhaps he would need a longer wind down routine for nursery days but this would make BT very late and he doesn't really tack so meaning late BT and still Ew. I don't even give him a bath on nursery days. So not sure what else I could do???
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I have read somewhere, perhaps one of tracy's books that says if bath is part of the routine, and when it's taken out, it might affect sleep. Another mother told me that the bath was the relaxing part of their bedtime routine and she could see his high strung son (who started walking at the age of 7 months, trilingually brought up, talking fluently before 2) relaxing when water is poured over him.
But then... We also had that... Skip bath, still nothing worked until DS is old enough to handle it. Hugs hugs hugs
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The lack of a bath is def not a trigger here. I know with Miguel that if I'm going to give him a bath it has to be at least 2 hours before BT otherwise it winds him up. It's just something we figured a few months ago.
Ok. I have just left the NAET practitioner and she said that kinesiology is part of the NAET training so she knows/use questioning as part of the treatments all the time. I will book for M soon.
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Oh cool!!! I am thinking of taking the courses myself. But haven't found one in English!!!
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Quick update: yesterday he had to nap a bit later because of the NAET appointment. He napped in the car from 11:40-12:40. I woke him up after 1 hour as he napped a bit later and I wanted to try early BT and didn't want refusal. I woke him up, then went to the Practitioner's officer where DH was doing his treatment, then I started with my treatment and Ds rested, willingly ,on DH 's lap for about 30 mins so it was 1 hour nap and 30 mins rest.
We had a long wind down again and asleep by 6:25pm. It's 5:35am now and he is still sleeping :) and again no NWs!!! :) I think I'm on to something here but I don't want to speak too soon :P
I finally managed to get hold of " Raising your spirited child" yesterday afternoon and I read the sleeping issues chapter first. It was all very reassuring! I was glad to find out that I'm already doing what is necessary to help M sleep, thanks to BW! :) It was also so interesting to gain some more insight into M's traits :)
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Awake at 5:40am only 5 mins before Mr sunshine :) 11.20 hours night!!! Wooooohoooo! :D
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AWESOME!!!!!!
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Great news!!!
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Great stuff! I'd def stick with the early bed.
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Thank you ladies.:)
I couldn't have early BT today as we had a birthday party and he was very wound up. He was asleep at 7:45pm. I think what is crucial for him is the wind down (RYSC confirms this). It has to be very long. He had 1.30 wind down today and it still took him 25 mins to fall asleep because he was so wound up with the party.
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Awake at 5:10am. 9.25 hours night. I think we are going to have to settle for short nights on special occasions day and on nursery days as he doesn't tack when he has normal / late BT times.
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My friends son wakes at 5.30 no matter what, doesn't tack on sleep either and takes an earlier nap than most but still arms 12 ish for two hrs. She settles for a long nap a shorter night as he wKes 5.30am no matter what tweaking she does. Early risers are perhaps just early risers....and bright little children it seems x
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Hi ladies!
Laura, Sianie, Wendy, Huby, Karen, Eloysh and Koe. I would like to thank you for all your guidance, support and patience. :)
We are doing much better these days. The insight about M’s needs of long wind down was a turning point! He def needs help switching off much more than I ever imagined. Our normal 45mins was useless . It’s more like a 1.5 hours in a normal day and perhaps even longer on busy days. This has made such a difference in our nights with Nws and BT resistance. I’m also offering him a very early nap (10am) on the days he is with me at home and super early BT ( 6:30pm) after 6.5 - 7 hours A time and long wind down. Last Thursday he had 13 hours of total sleep!!!! :o :o Unfortunately he still EWs every morning but we have accepted it, now that he is getting quality sleep. He doesn’t have good total sleep on nursery days as he finds it hard to switch off at BT (having the occasional NW) and never sleeps longer in the mornings but we catch up with sleep on non-nursery days. Reading about his traits on RYSC has been a blessing as well. :)
Anyway, I’m just posting to thank you ladies for holding my hand! You are a bunch of special ladies!! ;D :-* :-* :-*
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I am*so* happy for you, you deserve it.
:) Now don't disappear on us will you?! ;)
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Thanks Laura :) Of course I won’t disappear , I would not leave my BW sisters! ;)
He is still not a great sleeper, yk. But the fact that I get him more and *accept* his sleep traits has helped immensely. The EWs (everyday) and NWs (occasionally) are not completely gone but I think the *acceptance * and *understanding* were key factors for stopping me getting so frustrated with him and the whole situation. :-[
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He is still not a great sleeper, yk. But the fact that I get him more and *accept* his sleep traits has helped immensely. The EWs (everyday) and NWs (occasionally) are not completely gone but I think the *acceptance * and *understanding* were key factors for stopping me getting so frustrated with him and the whole situation.
This is so true & I'm glad you've got to this point as it will make things a lot easier to deal with & accept!
So glad things are a bit better! :)
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So sso happy for you that you are on to something good!! You beat us. We reached that point when DS was almost 24mo! It's really good to know why so that you can accept and deal with it, instead of constantly guessing and wondering! Wooohoooooooo he will soon grow to a point that he can handle the stimulation better and then can sleep even better even on nursery days. Yay!!
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Awesome news!
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Thank you ladies! ;D
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Xx good luck with everything xx
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I spoke too soon :( we had the worse night ever last night :( M was up from 11pm to 2:45am. And awake at 5:10am . 6 hours 40 mins night! :o :o :o we never had such a short night before ! What do I do today with his nap ? He is at nursery but he won't nap earlier there . I have already asked. Carer tried and he refuses as he knows the other children are playing.
Please I need a reply before dropping him off this morning.
At nursery he has 1.5 hour nap (12 to 1:30 pm). Anymore will result in very late BT . I'm confused as we never ever had such a short night :(
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Sorry, I meant NW from 11pm to 1:45am. So it was 7.40 hours night. It is still bad but not as bad. We had a 7.30 hours night once when we were pushing him hard to stop EWs and shift his day forward. You guys probably can remember it as it is somewhere in this thread.
Another question: Is it possible that children this age have nightmares? I thought he was a bit too young for that. But last night he didn’t want to stay in the cot. As soon as DH entered the room he wanted out of the cot at all costs, which is very unusual for him as he doesn't really like to be picked up when having NWs????? He was really upset, crying for ages. I also had to pick him up then brought him to our room as he was freaking out in his room. Then he didn’t even want to lie down on our bed. He only wanted to lie on my chest. In the end DH took him to his room and it took ages for him to fall asleep again as he was crying and very upset . DH tried for about 30 mins then I swapped positions with DH and it took another 15 mins for M to fall asleep.
So what do you guys think? Was it a nightmare?
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It's me again. I asked the carer to follow the normal routine today but if she thinks he wants to nap earlier she can put him down earlier and let him sleep longer. He was so happy this morning!!! He even gave the carer a big and long hug when I dropped him off. I don't know how he can be so happy after such a horrible night ??????
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{{Hugs}}, sorry for the tough night!
Only just catching up with my posts so this is probably too late for you I'm afraid!
What you have described does possibly sound like a nightmare, DD behaves in a similar way when she gets them.
I would probably have aimed for an earlier nap after the short night but FX he manages to catch-up a little today!
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Hugs Grants. ITA with Sian. Hope he has a good nap today and sleep tonight!
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Agree 100% with the early nap. But he is at nursery today and that's why asked them to watch his cues and put him down earlier. But according to the carer he refuses early naps there as he knows the other kids are playing and he wants to stay awake. But I hope he gives in to the tiredness and goes down earlier today. He is at home tomorrow so we will catch up. X
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Vibes for a better night tonight!
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Thanks Koe :) no early nap today at nursery. He had his normal 12:00 to 1:30pm and was in a wonderful mood at drop off and pick up. It took him 45 mins to fall asleep with our help. After 25 mins and lots of jumping on the bed and singing ::) I gave up and swapped with DH. M has no respect for me when he is OS, I'm too soft at BT and he knows it, so he just carries on trying his luck with me. He was asleep at 7:45pm. I will def do a big catch up tomorrow.
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How are you doing?
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We are doing fine. Touch wood. Lol Thanks for asking Laura :) M is sleeping better at night. It def seems to be mostly linked to M's finding it difficult to handle stimulation. Inability to switch off. It only took me 2 years to figure it out . Lol On the days I'm not able to do 1.5 hours wind down he ends up having NWs. It def seems to be a correlation. But... Correlation doesn't mean causation, so who knows what will come next????? Nevertheless, I'm enjoying the moment :)
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M has been up the whole night with a fever.Poor thing :( Who said we, parents, are allowed a break :-\
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Oh no! Hope he's better soon!
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Thank you Sian! He is 100% better now. It was probably a weird 24 hours virus :-*
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Good news!
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Hi ladies,
Things a pretty bad, yet again. *sign* M is back having long NWs again. Last night he was up for 1 hour or so and the night before 2 hours, and of course he never wakes up later than 5:20am. ::) I really don't know how he manages to carry on like this. I'm knackered !!!
All I'm doing at the moment is making sure that I offer as much sleep as I can with early naps and early BTs whenever is possible. I'm not trying to fix the EWs anymore as I know nothing really works but having NWs and EWs is a bit too much. I also don't understand why he never ever has a lie in after having a bad night????
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Big hugs!! It's so hard :( do you think it might be UT after having caught up with a bit of sleep?
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Who knows with him????
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Are you still capping the nap?
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Not anymore. Only at nursery (1 1/2 hours) as he naps later there so if I allow him to sleep for as long as he like he will not go to bed until 9:30 or 10pm.
At home I will let him nap for as long as he likes(which is normally only 1 hour and 45 mins) because I put him down at 10am so I know he will have enough A time until BT.
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Teeth - shall we blame them?! ;)
I wonder if the change in the schedule doesn't help? So one night he's going to bed at 9.30pm and the other nights 7pm?? I would think it *may* be unrealistic for him to do 11hr nights some nights and only 9hrs another (not that I know what the solution is I'm afraid!)
Could you cope with a later bedtime until he drops the nap?
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Yeah let's blame it on teeth lol. His nose was a bit blocked last night (I put Karvol on the plug). It was also a bit colder last night as well so perhaps he was cold?????? Who knows?
He is going to bed at 6:30pm when at home with me as he has early naps and at 7:45/8pm on nursery days because of later nap. I'm trying to put him down as earlier as I can at BT as he will inevitably wake up in between 5 and 5:30am regardless of BT. At least this way I insure longer nights.
The melatonin solution is looking better and better. I found really good scientific studies about it. And it’s pretty safe when it is used to regulate the circadian rhythm and in specific circumstances such as illness, trips, or changes in routine such as holidays. But the only problem I have is the fact that I’m not sure what kind/form/dosage of Melatonin to give.( the studies have dosages but not sure how to combine the two forms - fast release and controlled release). My GP will *not* give us a prescription for that. I will have to sit on it for a while before I search for it on Amazon. Nothing is ever easy :(
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He is full of a cold now so I'm not expecting a good night :(
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Poor thing. At least you know why. Lots of hugs and early night for u, too!!
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Thanks Koe, yeah at least now I know why :)
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Better night last night 10 hours night (7:30pm to 5:30am) with only 1 short NW. How sad is that a good night for us is a 10 hours night ::)
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TBH, that's a decent night for us too! 10.5 is considered quite good here and anything more than that is not the norm and a homerun! Hope he's feeling better.
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It's good to have good nights! Hope they will be more often and consistent and get longer as they get older!! Hugsss
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I just think M is a bit too young for having such short nights :( His normal length night is actually 9 hours.that's why I said 10 hours was a good night for us. I see so many kids his age having 12 hours night! :( Anyway, what can you do. It's one of those things.
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My DS did get above 11h from 23 mo! You just do what you can now. Hugssss
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Hi ladies,
Things are alright atm. We have accepted the fact that M is an early riser( wakes up between 5-5:30am every day).He is having 1.5 hour nap on nursery days and when at home he is allowed to nap for as long as he likes as I put him down early at around 10 or 10:30am. BT is fixed to 7:30pm every day. So we are consistently doing a total sleep per day between 11 -11.5 hours. Low sleep needs, I know. But this is the only thing that seems to work atm and he is happy with that amount of sleep. I allow him to catch up when at home but he doesn’t really have long naps (normally 1.45mins max and on a very odd day 2 hours). So I decided to keep his BT the same as not to mess up his body clock with early BTs.
However, he is having 1 NW *almost every night* between 11pm-1am. What do you think this can be? I have to go in as he wakes up crying and needs DH or I to rub his back for a few minutes until he can re-settle. He is a ‘busy bee ‘when sleeping and I can sometimes hear him moving and moaning but he re-settles quickly, I think it’s him changing positions in the cot. But the constant NWs are different. He needs us to resettle him if we don’t and leave him to it he then is wide awake and takes longer to re-settle.
What do you think about these daily NWs ? Any bets?
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All bets are off!!! I have no idea if I did I wouldn't have an 11pm-1am NWer myself ;)
(((((((hugs)))))))) What's the deal with teeth atm?
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All bets are off!!! I have no idea if I did I wouldn't have an 11pm-1am NWer myself
LOL
He has just had his 4 canines. Only molars left now.I'm 99.9% it is not the molars as he is a 'super slow teether' so the molars might come throught when he is 3YO lol
I'm still waiting for the other ladies' bets!! :P
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For us, NWs from 10:30-2 am (anywhere in that range) are generally discomfort - often cause by digestive issues.
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Does Matthew wake up crying? Does he re-settle quickly or is it long NWs?
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When he has stomach discomfort/ate something that bothered him he will be half awake and moaning/crying every 30-60 minutes usually starting around 10:30 pm, getting better around 2am (usually). Often we don't have to go in, sometimes we do to run his back and try to comfort him. Luckily it's been a bit since that's happened but he seems so uncomfortable when it does.
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I see. M’s is different, Only 1 NW, briefly but need us to come in. I wonder if he gets himself tangled in the blankets as he changes position all night long? But I tack the blanket in on the sides of the cot for that reason????
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I have just found this topic on this board and perhaps it could be the answer for me and you Laura???? It could be the sleep cycle thing.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=214498.0
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We had a horrendous night last night! 4 NWs! And of course 5:30am wake up! Argh!!
What could this be??? Very disturbed sleep. When he has that many Nws it’s mostly due to discomfort but there is no tooth/teeth coming? One of the top canines still has a little tiny bit to come down(It had broken through the skin ages ago but still has a tiny bit to come down). Do you think it could be that? One of the NWs was because his blankets were off. He wasn’t crying I heard him talking/complaining to himself so I just went in and covered him and left.
Or perhaps it was the fact he had 2.5 hours nap????? It is very rare that he naps for this long. He was at home so I put him down at 10 and he slept for 2.5 :o , but still had 7 hours A time before bed though.
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I'd suspect the long nap as the main culprit. That's a really long one, even if early in day. Hugs!
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I agree with Karen that the long nap is more than likely to blame (can't win, can you!?)
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Thanks ladies! :) I thought it could be. Especially when he never naps for that long.
The Great news is that I have just got back from my NAET appointment and M's body wasnt producing enough Melatonin. He got treated for it today so I hope it can solve his sleeping problems for good. :D
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Well that's good - something to work with, no? So will he be taking melatonin for a few days as well or just the NAET treatment? Hope it works!
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Just the NAET treatment. I will let you know how it goes. I will also post on the allergy NAET thread later. X
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Great news, at least you have some answers....it could explain a lot of the problems he's been having!
What does the treatment involve?
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That is great, Grants!!!! Did she say if one treatment is enough to fix the imbalance? I certainly hope so. Hugs!!!
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Karen, I was on my phone so I couldn’t answer your question properly. I did look into the Melatonin supplement but I can’t get it in the UK without doctor’s prescription. So I researched it and found out that there are different forms of Melatonin and different dosages to be used etc… So I didn’t pursue the idea as I don’t want to be guessing dosages and forms of Melatonin without a doctor and my GP is nor willing to help. Plus I would have to buy it on Amazon, which is a bit dodgy as well as it would have to come from outside the UK. So I’m glad that NAET by itself can bring his Melatonin levels back. :)
What does the treatment involve?
First the practitioner tests if DS has a Melatonin imbalance with Kinesiology ( muscle testing). If he does she has a specific way to massage your back/spine (to unblock the meridians) while you hold the vial containing Melatonin. After the massage DS had to hold the Melatonin vial (I put it inside his nappy) for 15-20 mins while he played around in her office. And then all he needs to do is to avoid Melatonin for 25 hours, which in DS’s case won’t be necessary as he is not taking Melatonin supplements.
Did she say if one treatment is enough to fix the imbalance? I certainly hope so.
She didn’t say Koe. We will have to wait for next appointment (Friday) to check if he needs a booster or not. Either way I’m glad that I found about it. It has been on my mind for quite a while but I didn’t book because we were focusing on his eczema treatment first.
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Perhaps when he gets more sleep, it would help with his eczema. I think everything isi kind of intertwined!! So complicated and intriguing but no fun when he and we are suffering!!
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Really interesting....hope it works, you must keep us posted!
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So DS is still waking up every single night *sign* :( The Melatonin treatments hasn’t changed anything. :( I had high hopes when I found out his Melatonin levels were non-existent. We still have another appointment this Friday to check if he needs a Melatonin booster and we still need to test Dopamine and Serotonin levels, which also have an influence on sleep.
Anyway….. Why is he waking up every blooming night????? I tend to think it’s 1) a habit and/or 2) he is getting too much sleep during the day (1.5 nap) and/or 3) the blanket off (every time I go in he is *not* covered, I tack in the blanket on the sides of the cot before I go to bed but somehow he managed to wriggle himself out of it ). DH seems to think he is uncomfortable. For example: I went in last night(11pm) covered him and moved positions as he was right up with his head touching the cot rails, then tried to leave but he cried again, So I rubbed his back for a few minutes, long enough to keep me wide awake. Argh!! , then I left. The thing is that I can’t just leave him as he moans /cry until he is wide awake then it takes ages to get him back to sleep). 20 mins later he cries again so DH goes in just move him away from the rails and he slept until morning WTH??!?! What is going on???? Needless to say that I was wide awake after that. I’m sooo tired all the time as I really struggle to go back to sleep after NWs. I don’t even mind the EWs anymore. It is just impossible to live on NWs. It is really hard to survive on broken sleep :(
Do you guys think I should cut his nap? What do you guys think the problem is?
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Have you tried sending DH in to do all the NWs I know with O that *sometimes* helps (well for a bit!)
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I might be tempted to wait until you've had your appt on Friday before you do any tweaking but you could well be right about the NW's being habitual.
Hoping you have a better night tonight!
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He woke up 3 times last night! Argh!!!
Have you tried sending DH in to do all the NWs I know with O that *sometimes* helps (well for a bit!)
Yes. Dh did 4 nights in a row and last night too. :(
I might be tempted to wait until you've had your appt on Friday before you do any tweaking
I think you are right Sian. I better wait as he might need a Melatonin booster and he might also be low in dopamine and serotonin? Who knows?
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Ugh so sorry Grants. Hope you can figure something out and get some rest soon. HUGS
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Oh, rubbish!! :P
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How are u doing?. Xx
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We are alright. Thanks for asking Koe :) DS STTN last night but woke up at 4:50am instead of 5:20 ::) The first STTN in 4 weeks!! :o I can't wait for my appointment tomorrow! I hope it will be a Melatonin booster and all sleep problems solved! Fingers Crossed!
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I cross everything for you, too!! Xx
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Let us know how it goes...FX!
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Everything crossed here too!
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So? ...... hoping no news is good news :)
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No. Just being lazy to update Lol I haven't had a chance to sit in front of the computer in the last few days. House is a total mess! DH has decided to take all the carpets off upstairs, fix a few boards and sand the floor boards all by himself :o so life is very messy right now. It's almost impossible to keep a spirited entertained when it's raining and the house is in a total mess :(
Anyway... Lack of sleep still the same here. We had 2 STTN with the normal EW this week but last night we had 2 NWs. Appointment with NAET went fine. He didn't need a Melotonin booster but we found out that his Serotonin and Dopamine levels are 'non existent'. So we going to have to treat them first. There is no point tweaking again if something is not right physically. We are going to have to wait until we can treat the Serotonin and Dopamine and then see if the sleep gets better.
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Grants, when can she treat them? I hope at least you have STTN until sleep can extend!! Hugss
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Grants, when can she treat them?
I’m not sure if she will treat him for one of them this Friday? We are also treating the eczema . We will have to use Kinesiology to find out what is the priority treatment for this Friday.
Funnily enough he is sleeping better this week(touch wood). Apart from the tossing and turning in the cot and losing his blankets ::) . So perhaps the Melatonin treatments made a difference even though he still has a Dopamine and Serotonin imbalance.
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Good news on better sleep. I, too slept better yesterday without sleeping pill hehe... I have lowered my expectations
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Hi ladies, it's me again. I know I have been away for ages. TBH I don't even come to the sleeping board at all as I'm really traumatised by DS's sleep. But I need to ask you a question. I'm quite serious about cutting DS's nap. I'm really fed up with these NWs! There
is no ilness going on, no teething and this kid just doesn't sleep. I think he is old enough to take the cut and to be quite honest I don't care that much anymore as I have been protecting his sleep for ages for no apparent reason :(
Anyway... My question is that DS is moving to a more 'mature' room at nursery on the 5th of September and I'm worried about cutting his nap just before it as I think he will be a bit too busy in there and might need it then???? Everything seems to affect his sleep so the move to the new room most probably will affect it. What do you reckon? See, I say I don't care anymore but I do . Lol :P
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What happens on a no nap day? Have you tried it ever? Has the testing shown anything? Sorry haven't read it all but I recall something about NAET. What does his day look like now and how many times is he waking at night? He has all his teeth now?
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((((((hugs))))) hun. I get it :-*
At around 18mths we completely cut O's nap as a trial and he slept better for about a week but would fall asleep in his dinner!! We ended up doing about a 30min nap for a while and it actually made no difference in the end hence we stuck with the nap. I hate to say but we are still not getting consistently STTN either :( I would say we get it maybe 3 or 4 times a week which is an improvement.
What is your routine?
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Thank you for replying girls! :) :-*
quote author=*Wendy* link=topic=211545.msg2300132#msg2300132 date=1314067414]What happens on a no nap day? Have you tried it ever?[/quote]
I haven’t tried no nap days yet. As you can see I have been a wimp regards no nap :-\ You know what I mean having a spirited yourself Wendy. I’m always scared of cutting his sleep because of his personality. Plus in case the nights get any worse as well :( He still takes his nap when offered. He is not refusing it yet, which makes it harder. But I have always had to push him for sleep from day 1. He went through 2-1 at around 10.5 months. I had to push him then as he never transitions by himself he always need my help through it.
[Has the testing shown anything? Sorry haven't read it all but I recall something about NAET.
We have been doing a NAET treatment with him for his eczema end his sleep issues. He has been tested and treated for most of foods. We still need to test him for food phenomes, which I reckon we will do this Thursday. On the sleep front he tested weak/imbalance for Serotonin, Dopamine and Melatonin. He was treated for all of them and is testing strong on those now. Last Friday he needed a booster for Dopamine and Melatonin but now he should be fine for those.The only thing I can think of now is to ask my practitioner to test him for Cortisol and Cortisone. He can’t relax and he wiggles all night long so perhaps he has an imbalance on his cortisol and Cortisone production. But after this I’m at a loss.
I had amazing results with NAET myself and I know it works. I even have a thread about it on the great news board but it hasn’t helped M on the sleep front yet. His eczema is looking 85% better but the sleep is awful. :( As I’m writing this I realize that he got a booster for Dopamine and Serotonin last Friday he body could be still working through that treatment.He also got treated for Histamine. For example. I got discharged from my treatment last Friday and had my last allergen treated (Dust) but since treating for dust I’m having hayfever symptoms every night as soon as I get in bed, which means my body is still working through the dust treatment. Perhaps that is what is happening with M after his Dopamine and Serotonin booster last Friday? This week his sleep is even worse. :( It doesn’t help the fact that he is in the middle of a growth spurt.
So main reasons I’m not sure about cutting his nap 1) spirited personality, 2) Growth spurt, 3) still having the NAET treatment, 4) moving to the big boys room at nursery in 2 weeks(more structured activities, bigger playground etc.. so he will def be more tired there)
What does his day look like now and how many times is he waking at night?
What is your routine?
-Awake at 5:30am
-Nap at 12pm for 1.5 hour(have to wake him up and sometimes he wakes up by himself). Sometimes I let him sleep a bit earlier when he is with me at home in case he needs an extra 15 or 30 mins rest, in that case the extra rest doesn't interfere with BT.
-BT at 7:30pm
He has all his teeth now?
Only molars left now. He has just had his 4 canines (1 month ago). He is a *very* slow teether so that’s why I don’t think he is having his molar yet considering that he has just had all his canines.
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Sorry Wendy, I forgot to answer about how many times he wakes during the night. It varies really. Like last night he had 2 NWs and on the second NW he was wide awake from around 2am to 3:30 am and of course he was still up at 5:30am as usual. Other days he wakes only once or twice but brief NWs. The main thing is that we hardly have full nights in our house and it is killing DH and I. DH is not being productive at work and I’m catching colds, having cold sores etc Plus I’m back to my studies in September and I really need to get this sleep sorted. I will have to write my thesis and I need sleep! Argh!!
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Does he fall straight asleep at bedtime? I know at around 2yrs our nap was no longer than an hour. I wonder about you trying the 1hr nap and crucially keep bedtime the same.
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Yes he does fall asleep fairly quickly no longer than 15 mins most evenings, some evenings takes a bit longer (15 mins is not great as we have to stay in his room with him but I recall from Tracy's book that 15 or 20 mins is the average. Plus he does find it hard to switch off. So 15 mins is not too bad for him.
What about these reasons here?
So main reasons I’m not sure about cutting his nap 1) spirited personality, 2) Growth spurt, 3) still having the NAET treatment, 4) moving to the big boys room at nursery in 2 weeks(more structured activities, bigger playground etc.. so he will def be more tired there)
Do you think it is wise to cut it now because of the reasons above?
He used to have 1 hour naps. Remember? Nights got better for a while but then the total sleep in 24 hours wasn't great ?????
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Perhaps give it a week for the naet and see what happens. WRT nursery I think they'll *always* be something :-\
Growth spurt never made any difference here ::)
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I'd ride out the NAET just now too. If you can have those kind of reactions, who is to say that's not bothering him. I also do think teeth are a factor, if they aren't all in yet then technically he's teething. They are always teething as those teeth are shifting, moving, etc. long before they break through. Slow or not.
15 or 20 mins seems to be a lot to me for falling asleep. F falls asleep in under 5 mins these days. But he's that tired. You may find a difference when he's in nursery anyway. His sleep may totally change up.
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Growth spurt is always a big issue for us but we dont have a spirited. Does he nap longer at nursery? I do remember that when DS was having his transition to the big kids room, he was playing there whenever possible for the month before, he got more tired and slept got a bit better. That's when we got out of the EW/NW hell. He was suddenly doing 2h nap and then 12h night if I got his total A time right.
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WRT nursery I think they'll *always* be something
I couldn’t agree more! Plus the lack of sleep doesn’t seem to bother him at all!!! He is always in a good mood and full of energy ????? I wish I could be like this lol :P Instead I'm here struggling with normal daily tasks. It's a good thing that God make them so cute! lol I can't be cross with him when I see him in the morning in such a good mood ;)
Growth spurt never made any difference here
The same here . Plus his behaviour seems to be better now that his 5 day course AB has finished. But the sleep is still rubbish though. He woke up 4 times last night and was moaning most of the night :(
After he got treated for Dopamine and Serotonin( the week before last) we had 2 AMAZING nights. He slept the whole night without a single noise and stayed in the same position I left him at BT(he never stays in the same position. He moves around the cot all night, often ending up at the other end) but then he had 1 bad night after the 2 good ones. I knew he was having discomfort and took him to the GP the next day. The doc said that there was a very mild ear infection and it would be better to start with a short course of AB straight away. So we did it and we also gave him pain meds . He is done with the course but the sleep is still rubbish and I don’t know if it’s because of the AB or if it’s because of his last NAET treatment. Either way I will ask the practitioner to test him for his AB tomorrow just to make sure he is alright with it.
Does he nap longer at nursery? I do remember that when DS was having his transition to the big kids room, he was playing there whenever possible for the month before, he got more tired and slept got a bit better.
He does not sleep longer at nursery. They know to wake him up after 1.5 hours otherwise I struggle to put him down at BT. I only allow him to sleep a bit longer sometimes at home(only an extra 15/ 30 mins) when he happens to go down for the nap a bit earlier then 12pm.
He is spending quite a lot of time in the new room for over a month now and he has been doing “stretch and grow classes” in there for about 4 months. They have a massive outside playground area in the new room with loads of more challenging/developmentally advanced outdoors equipment and this doesn’t seem to make a difference to him???? He is not more tired because of the new activities ????
Wendy, do you think that this extra energy is due to his spiritedness? I think I know that the answer is a Yes! ::)
I also do think teeth are a factor, if they aren't all in yet then technically he's teething. They are always teething as those teeth are shifting, moving, etc. long before they break through. Slow or not.
Agree Wendy!! M is a very 'slow teether' but the teeth seem to bother him way before they come through.
15 or 20 mins seems to be a lot to me for falling asleep. F falls asleep in under 5 mins these days. But he's that tired.
Hummmm he never really fall asleep that quick and on nursery days he seems to take longer as he is so wound up! ::)
You may find a difference when he's in nursery anyway. His sleep may totally change up.
What do you mean by that? You mean when he moves to the new room?
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Where are you girls ? Lol it took him 30 mins to fall asleep this evening. A nap cut it's looking like the answer here. Especially after Wendy tells me that F only take 5 mins to fall asleep. What do you think ladies?
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Hugs! Wanna try cutting 15 mins and the same bt?
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If it was taking F 30 mins, I'd be crapping myself. I would know something is up. But that's F. He's always gone to bed without issue, he's always had an early sleep phase too. When we get bedtime 'just right' it's a walk in the park on a beautiful sunny day. When we miss that window or muck it up, it's like a walk in the park on a -30 degree day trudging through snow in a swimsuit...well you get the idea.
Sorry I meant yes when he changes rooms. The shift in rooms had a huge impact on F because he's Spirited and likes things 'just so' and when his world changes up he gets upset.
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M always takes long to fall asleep. I think he finds it hard to switch off, but I also think that he might be too rested to fall asleep straight away ?????
So did Finn sleep better after the room change? I must admit that I'm a bit nervous about the change. He is very attached to his carer. Plus I wonder if the nights are going to get worsr :(
Koe, I think I'm leaning more towards the 30 mins cut. 1 hour nap instead of 1.5.
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If it was taking F 30 mins, I'd be crapping myself. I would know something is up.
Same here. O now falls asleep within minutes. When he was smaller it would be 10mins tops and anything over that I knew it'd take *ages* I'd definitely be cutting that nap.
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I wouldn't say he slept 'better' just different. First off he moved from infant to toddler room, he was only 18 mths and still heavily needing that nap. The nap conditions were different and he responded well right away, but was often disturbed by the kids that didn't nap well. So that coupled with more stimulation, interaction and activity made for one tired little boy. And we struggled to get bedtime early enough to cope.
This latest change was much harder on him because he was older, just 3 mths ago. Again the sleeping conditions are different, he's on a cot by himself in a room he can come and go from on his own. The first day he didn't 'get it' and screamed at her for 30 mins, told her not to touch him and generally gave her a hard time lol. And a couple of days after. But by the end of week 1 he was napping fine. And we've been playing with the nap length ever since.
So he coped but there was a transition period and yes for us it included NW where we never had any in the past.
I guess the truth is we don't know for 100% when F falls asleep, unless it's one of the occasions we take the monitor with us ie if we're going outside or what not. But I do know it isn't anywhere near 30 mins. Now some kids may need that time but I suspect there's more of a loop going on here.
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M moved from the baby room to the toddlers room when he was 16 months. The sleep got much worse then. He didn't have problems napping in there but the nights were horrendous for about 2 months! :( I think there was too much stimulation for him to handle. Now this new room is in between the toddlers room and the preschoolers room and I'm dreading it on the sleep front plus a bit concerned with change of carers.
He STTN last night. But only 9 hours night(8pm to 5:10am). I thought he was tired as he was very moody when DH brought him to our room after the groclock(5:30).but then DH offered to take him downstairs and he was back to his very loud happy self after the offer, so he wasn't tired at all he just hates being quiet upstairs when he is awake. ::) I just don't get it! At 5am was pitch black , he only had a 9 hours night and the groclock was not on yet. Why doesn't he just sleep in those conditions like 99.9%
of the kids ?????
So from what I wrote what do you think? I'm thinking 1 hour nap regardless his 9 hours night and keeping it that way. I'm hoping that when he is in the new room he regulates himself as he will be tired with the new activities and on only 1 hour nap hopefully having longer nights? Do you think this is a good plan?
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We are out and about today as my mum is here visiting. DS fell asleep in the car at 9:20am. There is nothing we can do about it now. We are going to have to play it by ear today. I hope we can have an early BT today to catch up and start a fresh tomorrow with 1 hour nap. Looking forward to hearing your views on that ;) :-*
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like 99.9%
of the kids ??
I think you'll find it's 99.8%.... you forgot mine :P ::)
I think this is a really tough call and it definitely sounds like he is tired. O wouldn't fall asleep in the car unless he was super tired.
I'm wondering about you doing an early nap at say 11am cap it at the hour and then bed at 7pm if he sleeps till 5.30am you have your 10.5hrs but I wonder if he may sleep more. I'm really sorry hun if that's something you have already tried. :-*
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But he did sleep. He slept 9 hrs. Finn still does this! And he can be a total chipperoo on 9 hrs sleep, but over several days, the facade cracks and out comes this totally tired demon. If Miguel is happy, never melting down, eating well, staying healthy - well then I'd say not to worry. But regular NW we know are not healthy for us as a species. Is there any possibility he has sleep apnea?
If it were me, I'd go for the longest nap that doesn't interfere with his nights. And that would be experimental on your part. It might mean 1 hr or it might mean 45 mins or it might mean no nap at all. You have to try these scenarios before we know if it will work. Going this long with NW, I'd want to try a no nap day (or two if that's what it takes) and see if you can get him to stretch that night a tad. Then add in a nap and go from there. Now because he's so young he may crash at 9 hrs or maybe he'll go the distance, who knows. Then you can see when his mood deteriorates and how far he can go. I have had to do that with F more often than not because he never gives adequate signs (until way too late) and I have no idea if he's UT or OT because it looks the same. Now we're so much better at making that determination (better than we were, we're still not figured it out completely) and can respond.
If it weren't for all the NW I'd say leave it. And I'm not totally unconvinced it's not teeth because they just made such a difference in our house once they were all through.
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Thank you the replies ladies :)
Yesterday he had one 40 mins nap in the morning and another 30 mins at 1:30pm, both in the car. Then DH put him down at 7pm( I tried but it was a disaster so had to ask DH to do it. BT with me these days is a nightmare, anyway this is another thread). He STTN again last night until 5:30am :) Unfortunately I think the groclock woke him up this morning. It was pitch black so the clock looks much brighter at 5:30( the brightness setting is already on the lowest but he is sensitive to light). The reason I think the clock woke him up is because he woke up crying and calling me, when I walked in he lay down again so I think he could have slept longer. I changed the setting to 6am but I think I will put it to 5:45 to start with. I don't want to push my luck. Hehe
We had NAET appointment yestrday. M is fine/strong now for Melatonin,Serotonin and Dopamine. I asked the practitioner to test him for Cortisol and Cortisone and bingo! He was also weak for it. So she treated him yesterday for both hormones and I hope this will make a difference with the switching off during the night and at BT. These are stress hormones. "Flight or fight response " so I reckon this can make a huge difference.
Laura, I have done that one before. I have found that he will go down earlish at BT if DH puts him down, independent of nap time, but when I try to put him down there is so much drama and stalling ! It's unbelievable !! I think DH will have to do BTs for a long time. I just would like to be able to do BT somedays :(
Wendy, I have thought about Apnea too. I read Vicki's thread as I asked about it the other day on the spirited support thread but DS doesn't have any signs as I have watched him sleep and the breathing looks peaceful???? But I have also heard that some people don't show the classic signs. Now try convince our GP to do a sleep study with him.
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WRT sleep apnea the sleep clinic told me if DS had it he'd be *really* sleepy all the time i.e. falling asleep at a drop of a hat and being hard to wake in the morning. They wouldn't even consider testing DS in the end as they said he showed no signs... ::)
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Laura, I'm hoping that the NAET treatment alone will sort it out! I hate dealing with GP's. They are so unhelpful most times. >:(
WRT sleep apnea the sleep clinic told me if DS had it he'd be *really* sleepy all the time i.e. falling asleep at a drop of a hat and being hard to wake in the morning.
This is rubbish as Vicki's girls are spirited and not good sleepers either, but they did show signs. But I have heard that some people don't show the classic signs. This is what I mean, most times these professionals just don't want to take things further or have different opinions or think we are exaggerating and its all normal. It depends a lot on which professional you talk to and if he/she is willing to listen to you and take things further. ::)
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Totally agree with everything you just said! ;)
I personally think they should've ruled it *out* just in case.
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{{Hugs}} Grants!!
I agree about the sleep study....DS has had a few over the last year & a half & as you may know, recently got diagnosed with sleep apnea (but he had shown a lot of the symptoms) but if you have tried everything else then I would have thought a sleep study would have been the next step (although I'm sure it'll come down to funding etc... ::))
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Hope it goes better already!! Hugs
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Thanks ladies :) Sian I think it will be really hard or almost impossible to get a referral for a sleep study for DS. The only time I ever discuss DS's sleep with my GP was when I was trying to get a prescription for Melatonin. They were so against it saying that DS is a very healthy and happy child and there was no need for Melatonin and its normal for kids his age not to sleep bla bla bla... Now can you imagine trying to get them to refer him for a sleep study?! ::)
On a positive note we are getting better nights for the last 3 nights and I'm def capping the nap to 1 hour at first to see how he goes. He is taking too long to fall asleep these days so I really wonder if he is too rested at BT. I think the NAET treatment is starting to kick in. I don't want to speak too soon though lol :P
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Hi ladies,
Yesterday we had 1 NW after 3 good nights. It used to be 2 good nights and then it all would start again ::) . Yesterday was M’s first day on 1 hour nap(crashed at 11:20am). Asleep by 7:30pm(still took 20 mins to fall asleep) and awake at 5:30am. He had one 15 mins NW at around 2am, which is better than multiple ones and/or very long ones. I still took ages to fall asleep again after the NW. Broken sleep sucks :(
I have few questions to ask:
1) Is it normal for toddlers to have NWs when there is a tweak in the routine? Does it get better after 5 or 7 days? I know M can’t be considered ‘normal’ on the sleep front as he has NWs in any scenario but the reason I’m asking is because he had 3 good nights but after the tweak he had 1 NW. So I’m hoping this NW is due to the tweak and as soon as he gets used to the 1 hour nap it will stop????
2) Is it OK for him to have 11 or 11.5 hours total sleep in the long run? As long as he sleeps through the night? He might not prolong his nights at all. Like yesterday he only had 11 hours total sleep in 24 hours. A few months ago he was on 1 hour naps but his total sleep was shocking as he won’t tack.
Thank you for holding my hand again lovely ladies. :-* :-* :-*
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Yes, any routine change (especially nap cutting) can take a few days for some LO's to adjust to. I would try to be as consistent as possible over the next few days & see if things settle down.
I would say 11/11.5hr night would be pretty good whilst he's still napping, M was doing 11/11.5hr nights when she was still having a 1hr nap.
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I meant 11 hours total, including the nap. That's what he normally do. I know it's low but if he STTN it's worth it , right ?!
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Grants you've been working very hard to get more sleep into this kid, yes 11 hrs would be considered on the low end for his age but you know, there's not much you can do about it. If the NWs stop then I'd consider that a victory for now.
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Yes. I was thinking exactly the same thing Wendy. Thank you for confirming that :) BUT, there is always a but ::) I'm here right now trying to get this kid up from his 1 hour nap and I'm struggling. He won't move! I even put the dog in his cot and no reaction! He is tired. We had a really busy morning doing some trekking etc.. Im calling DH now to help me wake him up.
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just want to offer hugs and thanks for all your support. Following along.
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Awww thank you Sabs :)
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We had a smooth day with the second day on 1 hour nap. DS was in a lovely mood. No tantrums?????
He was asleep by 7:35pm. It still took him 20 mins to fall asleep though. We were super busy today. Went trekking in the morning and after the nap we went to the shops and after that the park. This kid just doesn't get tired ???? DH and I are exhausted as usual. lol
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Better night last night . Only a few moans at 2:30am then moaned at 4:30, I went in and covered him and he was awake for the day at 5:45am. Only 5 mins before the groclock. Overall a better night :)
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That is great!!
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Glad you had a better night....FX for another good one tonight!
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Hope the good nights continue!
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Thanks ladies :) he is still having NWs and waking up at 5:30am even though his clock is set to 5:50am. It's only day 4 on the 1 hour nap. I will leave it another few days to see if it improves. I will keep you updated. I'm hoping that the NWs will stop. I don't have as much hope for the EWs though but as long as he can STTN we can manage the EWs by going to bed earlier.
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What time is the nap at?
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Nap is around11:45- 12pm. We tried later nap at one stage to try and resolve EWs but it didn't make a difference so we went back to the 12ish as this is the normal nap time at nursery. Plus he needs at least 6 or 6.5 A time before BT which makes BT too late if we go for a later nap. Catch 22 :(
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But does he still need 6-6.5 hrs after a 1 hr nap?
A wise BWer once said to me 'what hasn't worked may work now' or something along those lines meaning don't think because you've already tried something that it won't ever work. These kids are just always always changing and what didn't work in the past can't be ruled out indefinitely.
F can barely cope with 5 hrs these days after a 1 hr nap. 1 hr has been completely different than 1.5 hrs.
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Yes. He can still do 6.5 with 1 hour nap plus still takes him between 10-20 mins to fall asleep???? I agree 100% about what hasn't worked in the past might work now but for M anything less than 6 hours means long NWs. I have tried less A times many times as I wanted him to get more overall sleep but we end up having long NWs as he is not very tired to STTN :(
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I am going to jump and and ask a really basic question - pardon me if you have been through this a thousand times before!
How much of this NWing and EWing do you think is related to food issues?
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None TBH. He is fine with foods. My gut feeling tells me its his temperament. He is super spirited and finds it very hard to 'switch off' . So I think it will only get better once he is able to handle the stimulation without a nap plus I will have to teach him a few relaxation techniques when he is a bit older to help him relax in the evenings.
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Ok. Listen to this!!! Day 6 of 1 hour nap. Yesterday evening it took him 30 mins to fall asleep at BT. So he was asleep at 8pm. Unfortunately we didn't manage to enter his room earlier than 7:30pm as it was nursery day yesterday and he was too wound up at 7pm. He was happy and in a good mood, no melt downs just too agitated from daycare. Anyway he had a NW at 11:50pm of 1 hour and 40 mins. ( please have a look on the discipline and socialisation board as I opened a thread about him not let me in his room in the morning and at NW. He did that at the NW last night and got all wound up and had a long NW. Sorry I can't post the link as I'm on my phone).
So DH slept in his room for the whole night since 11:50pm. DS is awake since 4:50am and it's pitch black here. I mean DS is wide awake! I could hear him at 5am calling his dad really loud. DH is still in his room from 11:50 last night and now is trying to keep him quite until groclock comes on. ::)
So he slept at 8pm. Had a 1 hour 40 mins NW and is up at 4:50 am. He had a 7 hours and 10 mins night!!! :o WTH!!!!!! Seriously I had enough of this!!!! This is not a life!!! He is 2 and his sleep is worse than a newborn!!! Sorry about the rant but I'm so fed up with it!!!! >:( now I have no choice. I will have to let him sleep super early for his nap after the horrendous night. We are going to pick up the in laws at the airport at 9am so he will certainly fall asleep in the car. Ladies I need your support. I'm falling apart. I'm tired! I'm fed up! :(
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Here is the link ladies for you to understand the silly reason behind last night NW ::)
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=216628.msg2308063
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(((((hugs))))) hun. I wish I could suggest something more constructive but given he is still having shocking nights and long NWs I definitely would be trying to get him to bed earlier. I mean even with O's long NWs we were probably giving him the opportunity to sleep up to 11.5hrs even though he would do the long NWs.
I feel like you have two options really. Either just let him nap and do bed at say 8pm and he'll fall asleep when he does OR just try getting rid of the nap completely and do bed by 6pm.
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I will try letting him nap for as long as he likes today and will do an early BT. He will sleep in the car going to the airport. I know he will. So it will be early like 9am so I think we will still manage a 6:30 or 7 pm BT because the nap will be early. This is just today’s plan because of the shocking night. Last night was impossible to put him down early he was so blooming energetic that we only managed to get him into his room at 7:30pm. I honestly don’t think he can manage without a nap, otherwise I would do it. Trust me if I could I would :(
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Then I would def go for a nap and just do a late bedtime. I think his happiness (and yours) has to be paramount. If you speak to Koe this is what she did (maybe still does) her LO has a nap and like a 9pm bedtime.
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Oh no! I couldn't do late BT on a daily basis. I'd rather cut his nap for sure. I'm fixing last night with an early long nap and BT as early as I can(perhaps 7pm. I will have to play it by ear). But after today I plan to go back to 1 hour nap. If it doesn't work it will be 45 mins then. It has only been 6 days so I'm hoping it will get better? I normally like to try at least 10 or 14 days to be sure if it worked or not. Fingers crossed!
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Sorry just to go back to foods..... you got him checked by your NAET practiioner... did anything show up? Even though I know some are not allergies that have manifested yet I just wonder if there is a food sensitivity, given you have allergies yourself? What I am also wondering is, has he always been a touchy sleeper and prone to NW? Or is this just something recent? If he has always had troubles with sleep I would really be looking closely at food intolerance.
If anything is "off" for Kai woith foods, he NW's and when things are getting bad with foods he Nw's then Ew's on the same day, then has 1-2 good days then back to looong Nw's again. I know the night waking is the single most biggest symptom for food intolerances, followed by irritability and ADHD behaviour (this is for the toddler/child).
Anyway, feel free to pop me back in my box if this really is barking up the wrong angle. ;)
I am thiniking that if this is related to anything other than routine and OT then you won't see any results soon,and I hate to see others going through the wringer!
Unless it is truly just a horrible long drawn out nap dropping phase. :-\ :-\
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Grants you think you'd rather cut his nap but that's not all that fun either. Whilst we are not getting NW (and I do agree that's no life) we have a chronically tired Spirited kid.
I agree with Eloys in that this has been going on so long. What does your practitioner say about the NW?
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Thanks for posting Eloise. I don’t mind it at all. I appreciate all comments :) You have a point about intolerances/allergies. I have wondered this many times myself. I even had a food journal going on for a few weeks just to see if I could find a connection. But I didn’t find anything. He had good and bad nights even though he was on the same foods. I also cut dairy for a few weeks to try and sort out the eczema. And being dairy free didn’t make a difference for the eczema and the NWs.
I just wonder if there is a food sensitivity, given you have allergies yourself?
I have never had allergies/intolerances to foods.DH and I have always been very good sleepers as babies and toddlers. My allergies are to medications only. It started in 2007 after I took some tablets for migraine. I was fine for all meds before 2007.
you got him checked by your NAET practiioner... did anything show up? Even though I know some are not allergies that have manifested yet
DS is still having the NAET treatment. He has already been tested and cleared for all the basic foods. We still need to test a few food phenomes. BTW is Salicylates a food phenome? Could you please give me some examples of foods which contain it? All the food allergens have been tested more in relation to the eczema but once it’s treated it might also help with the NWs? On the sleep front he was tested for various things and was found weak for Melatonin, Serotonin, Dopamine, Cortisol and Cortisone.He was treated for Cortisol and Cortisone last Friday, tomorrow I will find out if he still needs a booster for it. He was also found to be weak in one other thing sleep related but I can’t remember what it is and I forgot my treatment sheet in my practitioner’s office.
What I am also wondering is, has he always been a touchy sleeper and prone to NW?
I will tell you a bit of M’s story. M has never been interested in sleep. He was very alert as a baby and would not nap much. I found out about BW when he was around 4.5 months old. It took me just over a month to get him on an EASY and he STTN from around 5.5 months until around 9 months.So he had 3 months in his life of good sleep but he has always had EW even when he was STTN. EW is his natural rhythm so I don’t think we can change it much. He had his first tooth at around 9 months which also makes me wonder if his NWs are related to teething. He could be very sensitive to the tooth moving under the gums which means he will have bad nights until all of them come through???? IDK. It is just another theory. Lol
I know the night waking is the single most biggest symptom for food intolerances, followed by irritability and ADHD behaviour (this is for the toddler/child).
He def doesn’t have ADHD. He is very spirited and needs to channel his energy but he def doesn’t have it. I say it with certainty as Psychology is my passion and it will be my profession as soon as I get my doctorate. There is a major debate in Psychology and Psychiatry about ADHD. Many professionals question the existence of this disorder. Some even argue that it doesn’t even exist. Although I do know about both sides of the debate I tend to lean toward the idea that ADHD is a social construct. Some kids might have it but nowehere near the amount of kids that have been diagnosed with it.My guess is that loads of spirited and gifted children are probably diagnosed with it as the parents might not know how to channel/deal with their energy and brightness. The pharmaceutical industry makes billions with Ritalin in the US and UK. Now they are trying to ‘create’ ADHD for adults. Most of the new scientific papers are focused on ADHD in adults. Anyway… I could go on for ages about this. lol :P But I will just leave it as DS def doesn’t have ADHD. He does have a lot of traits associated with it but we work with those traits and not against them, eg: not trying to keep him still when he is a very energetic child and needs stimulation, iykwim?!
I’m not sure what you mean about irritability though. Could you please elaborate a bit more on that as I would love to explore that further?
Grants you think you'd rather cut his nap but that's not all that fun either. Whilst we are not getting NW (and I do agree that's no life) we have a chronically tired Spirited kid.
I know... but something has got give and I’m not willing to have very late BTs as this is the only time I have for myself and DH.
I agree with Eloys in that this has been going on so long. What does your practitioner say about the NW?
We are still treating and she is testing him on different things for his sleep .
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I forgot to mention that DS had an early nap today (9am to 11am)after the horrible 7 hours night and BT was at 6:20pm. Hoping for a good night!! Fingers crossed!
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7 h night??? I am so sorry. Fingers crossed for M's sleep tonight!
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I know! How bad is that?! :(
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Just seeing your update....{{Hugs}}!
Is there any difference at all to his sleep if you give meds (just thinking if teeth are in part to blame)?
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It sucks :( I wonder if you should let him nap longer than 1h on nursery day as you can't get early bt and it seems like it was OT last night. I wish I had a magic wand to solve all these problems!!! Hugsss
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Not sure Sian. He has just had his 4 canines so I assumed that he doesn't need meds for now as I don't think his molars are cutting yet but it could still be bothering him under the gums though but what can I do for that? I can't give him meds for months until
the molars decide to come through :-\
Koe, I don't know if I want to go back to longer naps??? Last night I don't think it was OT ??? He has this thing ATM about not wanting me in his room and because I went in to sort out his blanket he went mad and was wide awake for ages :( I put a link of the other thread about this behaviour issue a few posts back.
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Those last molars are tricky as they take so long to come through & move around in the gums a lot before you can see anything coming through ::)
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Hello!!!
{{{hugs}}} on the tough sleep journey you are on xx
Had a random thought coming from your other thread and then after reading here.
I wondered do you think you need to teach M to settle independently? we did used to sit with M until she was asleep but it got to the point when she was about 18 months where it was just too much stimulation for her and it would just help her fight sleep even more or stop her going back to sleep in the morning. I also wondered if this is going to be M's sleeping pattern for the next while would it be best to teach him that this is nighttime and you just stay in bed until the sun comes on and mummy and daddy stay in their bed.
I just wondered with the bedtime carry on you are getting with you not being able to settle him without DH and the fact you have to go in and sit with him until the clock changesin the morning is just too much stimulating for him and gives him a reason to stay awake? And if you took a different tack and worked on independent settling he may very well get to the stage where he'll wake, see its not time to get up and go back to sleep?
Please excuse me if this is totally not even an issue but just it was a random thought!
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It's not looking good :( it's 21:40 and DS has already complained twice :( DH said that perhaps I should move into the lounge as I didnt have a nap this afternoon ( DH is off work this week and had a nap this afternoon) and he could sleep in our bed with DS. It's hard to sleep on the floor in DS's room so we will try to get him to sleep in our bed tonight so DH can at least have a better night. Let's see if it will work . DS doesn't settle in our bed. He just doesn't like to sleep on it :(
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I have just seen your reply Shiv. Thanks for jumping in ;)
I know what you mean. We don't have to sit with him to wait for the clock. We used to when he was younger but now he will wait for it. He complains but he waits though. He normally wakes up at 5:30 and clock is set for 5:50am. When he wakes up earlier then 5:30 he complains quite a lot as he doesn't like to stay in his cot for too long. But we don't come in before the clock even if he is complaining. DH did it this morning because he was already sleeping in his room and DS woke up too early 4:30 :(
Re: BT. It's hard to not stay with him. We have tried a 5 day course of WI/WO and it was awful! DS would scream the whole 5 days for 1.5 hour. DH gave up after 5 days and then we decided to stay with him and it took a whole week for DS to wanting to go into the cot again. He was truly traumatised by the whole WI/WO experience. GW also doesn't work as he doesn't relax, constantly watching to see if we are going to sneak out ::)
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Btw he has never ever fallen asleep again if the clock is off. Once he is awake he is up and that is it. He is the only unsuccessful story for the groclock :(
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Sorry i picked that up wrong about the clock earlier in the thread. I thought you went in but didn't get him out until the clock changed. But its a non issue though if he does just stay in bed and you in yours.
Its a pity about the bedtime though. Although I can see how difficult it is. I just think a later bedtime of 8pm would be workable if you could just plonk him in bed and then have time to yourself but its hard it you then have to stay. How long does he usually take to settle? What age was he when you did the WI/WO? How is his understanding now?
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He takes between 10-20 mins. When he is very agitated from nursery can take up to 30 mins. But this is with DH though with me can take longer, almost 1 hour :( He finds it very hard to switch off at BT, even now on shorter naps he still takes the same amount of time to fall asleep :(
I think the WI /WO trial was 3 months ago. He def has a better understanding now. But I would rather try again in a few weeks time as there is too much going on in his little world right now. He is going through a GS, he is moving rooms at nursery next Tuesday and I'm also cutting his nap right now. So if we are going to try the WI/WO again I would rather wait a few weeks.
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Well 10-20 minutes isn't too bad.
{{{hugs}}}
I'll keep following along incase I have any thoughts about your routine xx
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He is the only unsuccessful story for the groclock Sad
Sorry my kid claims that title :)
You know DH and I do bedtime together almost every night, I think it does seem to help.
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Thanks Shiv :) I didn't think 20 mins was bad either. But ladies in here have they kids asleep in 5 mins. So i thought DS was taking too long. I suppose they are all different.
I didn't know the groclock didn't work for F Wendy? It used to? Doesn't it do the trick anymore? BTW I LOVE your new avi! It is hilarious!!! ;D
We have tried doing BT together but it's even worse that way. He gets too wound up with both of us in the room. He asks to have both of us in there most nights but just because he wants to take the mick ::) So now I just go in with DH, say goodnight to the sun, give DS a kiss and leave .
We had 2 short NWs yesterday. DS slept in his cot last night but I still slept in the lounge. I finally had a full nights of sleep. It's good for me to sleep downstairs every now and again to get a full night. It's DH's turn to sleep in the lounge tonight . We agreed to take turns until DS's sleep gets a bit better. I think cutting his nap at the same time as transitioning rooms in nursery was a bad idea. I can't win :(
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No it never 'worked' in the sense that he never went back to sleep. It 'worked' in that we had another reason to make him wait to call us. Started training up at 16 mths that he has to wait until sunshine is on before calling daddy (he always calls daddy in the morning and at NW - probably because he knows I'm more no nonsense, it's good cop bad cop around here it seems)
There was a period, he was having major SA and was yelling as soon as he was awake - DH calls through the door and says 'Finn call me when the sunshine is on' and again, we make him wait no matter what.
Most days now he'll wait but then start yelling 'Sunshine ON! Daddy sunshine ON!'
I do think 20 mins to drop off is on the high end but if your kid needs that time to unwind and switch off then all you can do is build that time on. On a good day F is asleep within 5-10 mins max.
*sigh* these kids are slowly driving us insane
Re:avatar - yes he selected wellies for the beach, was quite adamant lol It was a scorching day too. Everyone at the park laughed - I just said 'oh he dressed himself today' lol
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Ladies, I was thinking about trying another early BT tonight to see if he can catch up? Perhaps he is very OT but it's hard to know as he doesn't show any signs ??????? I'm not sure he is going to take the early BT plus I'm really scared of the long NWs. Everytime we have done a few early BTs in a row he would have long NWs :( . What do you think? We are back on 1 hour nap today. I was thinking about 6:30 BT again like yesterday?
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As you know, we get no signs either so I always say 'it can't hurt to try it'. Especially since I really don't see how things could get much worse in your case...but I do get what you are saying about long NW. I wish there was a straightforward answer, but I've been looking for nearly 30 mths and coming up pretty darn blank lol
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Do you think having every other day of early BT would work better instead of a few in a row? I have never tried that one before as I prefer to keep all days the same just in case his already messed up body clock gets even worse .
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Yeah it may, I've never tried every other day of tweaking because frankly it drives me around the bend to even tweak in the first place (why is my kid broken?! lol). But then you know, NW would drive me too so I'd probably give it a whirl. We got no body clock working in our favour either. It's a Spirited epidemic, which seems to match exactly what I have been reading in RYSC.
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We couldn't resist :-[ We are doing an early BT today for our own sake. Plus I also think DS is tired. I think we might have been missing his window. I never know with him. It's so hard to tell????? On RYSC the author says that the energetic spirited has a very short window. I think M's window is super short :(
Wendy, I can't remember the part about the lack of body clock and spirited epidemic ?
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Yeah she talks about certain Spirited types and not having a set time of doing anything, they aren't hungry at the same times, they don't poop at the same times, they don't want to sleep at the same time every day. It's not that extreme with us as he likes predictability and hates change (imposed change, but he can change his mind on a whim!) but we have never had luck forcing F onto a routine, BW or otherwise. BW has helped us teach him independent sleep (thank God!) but we never had an EASY.
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I remember now it's the 'regularity' extra feature of spirited. M scored off the charts on that one. He is very irregular . Blooming hard to read!
Btw Asleep by 6:30pm on the dot! It only took 10 mins this time so we could have been missing his window all along that's why he has been taking long to fall asleep :( who knows ? I will only be able to tell after a few days as there is no much logic with him and I think this is def linked to the irregularity trait.
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Yep when I think we've cracked it with an 'aha!' moment, we always end up regretting saying that lol I don't know how two predictable people like DH and I got a kid who is a big question mark. It's interesting if nothing else.
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STTN last night 6:30 to 5am :) but of course mummy and daddy are OT so we were both wide awake at midnight after DS made a little noise in his room. DH went downstairs to watch TV and I stayed upstairs playing games on my phone :( I only managed to fall asleep at around 4am and DS was up at 5 :(
Anyway, listen to the disaster... I went into DS's room in the hope I could get him back to sleep as it was pitch black at 5am and of course there was no chance after 10.5 hours night, then he didn't want me to leave ( on the positive note no tantrums when I walked into his room :) ). Then I took him out brought him to our bed, thinking that perhaps he would chill out there.(DH was sleeping in the lounge). Of course he didn't. So I convinced him to go back into his room to wait for Mr Sunshine. I had to get into the cot with him to wait for the sun. ILs are back from their holidays so DS is sleeping at their house tonight to give us a break. I hope he forgets the fact that I took him out of the cot before Mr sunshine :-[
Yesterday DS had a NAET appointment and he needed a booster for the Cortisol and cortisone. I wonder if that was getting in the way of his sleep hence the bad nights. When I needed a booster for my dust treatment I spent the whole week having heayfever symptoms and once I got the booster it went away, so perhaps the need of a booster could have had an major impact on his sleep. He also got treated for Acetylcholine Chloride, another neurotransmitter which can influence muscle relaxation etc He was weak on it and needed treating. So let's hope it was all just a glitch related to the treatment.
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Hey I get insomnia or sleep problems as an effect right after a treatment. I hope it is just a reaction to the treatment also! I am so happy for you that you could have a break!! Hugs
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Yes. It could def be a reaction to the treatments especially when he has been treating for all these hormones and neurotransmitters associated with sleep.
He is sleeping at the grandparents tonight. We dropped him off at 2pm and I had a lovely nap from 3 to 6pm ;D
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I wonder if that was getting in the way of his sleep hence the bad nights.
Interesting....hoping this is the case so at least you know what's going on!
Hope you & DH manage to get a good nights sleep tonight!
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Thanks Sian :-*
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It is all the same over here. NWs and EWs . He had 3 early BTs as i was concerned he was OT but it didn't stop the NWs, he STTN on the first night of early BT but the NWs came back after that). I was hoping for an early and long nap today ( for my own sake as I need a break) but he won't go down for a nap early today he is full of energy, running around and in a good mood. So I will have to give him only 1 hour nap as he won't go down early enough for a long one :(
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{{Hugs}}!!
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I'm letting him nap a bit longer. I will do a later BT if it's necessary. I just need the break. The only thing I worry about is the fact that tomorrow is nursery day and it will be the first day at the new room. So if he has a late BT or loads of NWs he will be really tired tomorrow. The kids in the new room sleep on mats on the floor so it will be very different from the other room. I’m so stressed about it all :(
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The kids in the new room sleep on mats on the floor so it will be very different from the other room. I’m so stressed about it all
It's the same here! DS is starting nursery this week (settling in sessions & then starts properly next Mon) & he will be napping there the 2 mornings he's there (on mats!). I freaked out when DD went through this & thought that there was no way she would sleep on them but she did, no problem! I'm giving nursery one of DS's Gro-bag to put him in so he can't move around so much!
Hoping it all goes well, I know how stressful it is!
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Yes . You are right these kids can adapt to anything. Did your DD sleep on the mats on her first day? I just worry that it will take DS a few weeks to get used to sleep on the mats on top of his sleep issues will make him super OT. Or perhaps the lack of decent naps will sort his sleep issues at once LOL
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Yes, she moved up from the baby room where she had been in a cot & went straight to the toddler room & sleeping on mats. I did find she used to settle pretty easily at nursery as there was so much going on that by nap time she was really tired.
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Same as Finn. He was in infant room in cots in a dark quiet room and then he moved to sleeping on a mat with 20 other kids in the bright room he played in. The only time he struggled to sleep is because the other kids woke him up. Otherwise he followed routine and went straight to sleep. He might surprise you Grants.
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In the infant room DS slept in vintage silver cross prams, then at the toddler's room was in cots , now this new room it is in mats.
He might surprise you Grants.
I'm hoping this transition will sort his sleep out! Wishful thinking :P LOL
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DS napped for 1 hour and 20 mins today. I wanted to try something different tonight, so I played loads of wrestling in the afternoon and evening (needless to say I'm his favourite person ATM lol), DS helped DH with a bit of DIY and we had a very quick quiet time (3 mins) sang 3 songs and time to go to bed. DH entered his room at 7:30pm let's see if burning loads of energy just before BT plus a bit later BT can make a difference ????
BTW I have been thinking if the NWs don't get any better after his GS I will def go to the GP. This is not normal. I'm struggling to survive. Perhaps he does have a kind of sleep Apnea. Who knows ?
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DS STTN! ;D and……slept through the Groclock! :o :o :o :o It was only 15 mins past the light but still.... What a nice feeling ;D I just left DS in there as he was happy and chatting to himself. After 10 mins he started to moan, then I went in .
To those of you who have the Groclock what do you normally do when your LO’s sleep past the light?
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Celebrate :). It's only happened a handful here. If it became habitual you might think about adjusting the sunshine time.
Way to go Miguel!
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Thanks Wendy :)
I'm not sure about habitual though. I will only believe it if he does it for at least 7 days. He is so blooming irregular for everything ( sleep, food, bowel moviments ) so its hard to believe until it happens a few times in a row. Do you think it's OK to leave him in the room for a while if he is happy and chatty even though he woke up after the time set?
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Yay! So glad to hear about sttn ;D
I admire your persistence with this and trying everything to help your little one, and not giving up :D and I know how this can bring you to your knees, my DH and I were at eachothers throats not long ago due to Kais sleep as we were just so darn tired and cuold not function in any normal way. We were in pure survival mode. :(
I just read back about 7 pages. What I hear is this. He is consistently NW'ing - not every night, but enough times a week and for a few weeks to be able to rule out sickness, NAET reaction, teeth. Is that right? That's what I think. I think that he has a food sensitivity, I really do. :o Now feel absolutely free to discount things I have said and also correct me, as I am basing this on what little I know if him just from what I have read, and I know words can distort things a bit :P
It just seems so similar to Kai's story. Kai had 6 weeks of Nw'ing every 2nd or 3rd night coupled with EW/s of 5am or so at about the age of 12-14 months. Because it went on for so long it was kind of a blessing in disguise because we were able to say that no, we have ruled out any prop issues, no, you can't be teething for that long. No, sicknesses are finished. We finally cracked it when we eliminated troublesome foods. He was always a bad sleeper, but we got to place where he was sleep trained so many times that we knew he could do it if he wanted but he continued to wake at night and EW.
This is based on the assumption that you can rule out 2 year molars, the reason I am ruling out the molars is that he seems rather happy during the day?
These are my other reasons that think he has a food sensivity. He has eczema. We know skin is an indication of the gut health. This is the first major indicator to me. I know eczema can be related to environmental factors, but we are building a case here. I heard the other day eczema is linked to egg intolerances - this was from a paeds personal experience just heard this a few weeks ago.
Anyway, these are my other reasons: - You said he has always been alert as a baby and finds it hard to get to sleep taking a long time, this is a food intolerance symptopm. I know he is not ADHD, but you have said he can be quite restless and spirited, this links to the hyperactivity and irritability trait which can be a food intolerance symptom. Bascially the foods upset their nervous ssytem and they are a frayed, alert, more highly strung version of their true selves. When you take out the foods they come down a notch and calm down a bit and sleep gets alot better.
You said he finds it hard to wind down (I am asssuming that is a norm as opposed to OT?). Babies and children don't have to have ADHD or completely hyper for a food sensitivity symptom. Kai isn't hyper as such but if he is having troubles with food he is certainly restless in the day a little wired and distractable and grouchy. I can see the difference. He is also more demanding, and cranky as if he is OT, but it goes on and on for weeks.. and is linked to the NWing. You could say of course he would be like that - he NW's. Well that could be true too. ::) But we have evidence because by taking the foods out, the NW's disappeared.
And lastly your little one has the regular Nw'ings. Big clue there. Again, if the NW's are food intolerance related, the nervous system is set off, wired, frayed. The detoxifcation chains involved in digesting food don't work properly, the hormonal chain reactions that need to take place dont operate as well so you get broken low quality sleep. :( If hormones and detoxifcation are off, normal food chemicals build up to toxic levels thus irritating and causing food intolerance reactions.
Anyway, this is my rant, and you know I really into this stuff at the moment and coming from a very different angle, but some food for thought! :D :)
I can provide links to websites discussing food intolerances, food sensitivities, symptoms and diagnosis for further info.....
take care and hope the sttn's continue so you can all get some rest xxxxx
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Thank you for posting Eloise! I really appreciate all your thoughts :)
It just seems so similar to Kai's story. Kai had 6 weeks of Nw'ing every 2nd or 3rd night coupled with EW/s of 5am or so at about the age of 12-14 months. Because it went on for so long it was kind of a blessing in disguise because we were able to say that no, we have ruled out any prop issues, no, you can't be teething for that long. No, sicknesses are finished. We finally cracked it when we eliminated troublesome foods. He was always a bad sleeper, but we got to place where he was sleep trained so many times that we knew he could do it if he wanted but he continued to wake at night and EW.
Did Kai have a good stretch of sleeping through the night consistently like M? DS slept through the night from around 5.5 months to around 9 months. Almost 4 months of good STTN every single night but still EWs. But I’m not too concerned with his EWs. DH and I are early risers and this is very much DH and mine body clock. I’m more concerned with the NWs. Can he have food intolerance even though he managed to STTN for all those months in the past? Did Kai sleep through the night consistently for a few months before his NWs started?
This is based on the assumption that you can rule out 2 year molars, the reason I am ruling out the molars is that he seems rather happy during the day?
M has never been affected by teething during the day. He is always happy during the days. He was like this for all 16 teeth. Teething only seems to bother him during the night. I never gave him meds during the day for teething.
You said he finds it hard to wind down (I am asssuming that is a norm as opposed to OT?).
Yes. It’s more like a norm, even when I’m 100% certain he is not OT due to good naps and good nights he still takes a while to switch off at BT. I think this is more a trait thing. I used to be like this myself. Not as a baby/toddler but when I was a teenager and young adult. I have learned how to relax now, so I don’t have that problem very often anymore.
Kai isn't hyper as such but if he is having troubles with food he is certainly restless in the day a little wired and distractable and grouchy. I can see the difference. He is also more demanding, and cranky as if he is OT, but it goes on and on for weeks.. and is linked to the NWing. You could say of course he would be like that - he NW's. Well that could be true too. But we have evidence because by taking the foods out, the NW's disappeared.
This is a difficult one to put my finger on as he is very, very happy even though he has NWs. Some days, not always, when he has bad nights he will be a bit grumpy in the mornings. But still energetic and happy, if this makes any sense?! And his mood will get better after he has his nap. I think this would happen even to us, adults, if/when we had a bad night, iykwim?! Plus this in only on rare occasions he is not grouchy every day after bad nights. He is very energetic but he is spirited so it’s hard to draw the line between temperament and food intolerances. Like for example, distractibility or perceptiveness, a more positive way of calling it. It’s very much a spirited trait. So he will stop at every corner to watch a flower, a stone, a cat, a bicycle, a truck…etc… but this is part of his spiritedness, yk?! But he can concentrate very well. He can sit for at least 30 mins to work on puzzles if he feels like it, so although he is very energetic he has no problem concentrating.
Phew! There was a lot of food for thought on your post. I think I have managed to ask you all the questions I wanted. I hope I’m not missing anything
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Interesting analysis, Eloise.
Grants, did M get re tested on things that he was strong on at the start? Remember I keep getting new allergies that were ok before. Worth considering.
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Was away for a few days and only catching up now... HUGS Grants. As Eloise has said too, as you know I've always strongly suspected food intolerance(s) with M.... Have you tried eliminating anything for at least two weeks?
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Thanks for that Koe. I think I will contact my practitioner about this. If it needs be she can get prepared with all the vials before we arrive on Friday. The only thing is that it might be charged as a first consultation as we will be re-testing him on loads of things. I don’t care about the price if it solves the problem.
We are going to end up bankrupt just now :(
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We have just started leaving F when the sun turns on, we have told him that he can call us when it turns on. So he has that option. He likes his private time in the morning so we never rush in (unless he's overslept for some rare occasion and we have to wake him). He now immediately yells when the sun is on BUT that's because he's EW again and he's already been in there an hour or more on his own.
So what happens when you leave Miguel if he wakes BEFORE the sunshine? You mentioned he's good for 30 mins, what do you do for the rest of the time? Do you call through his door to remind him? Or just ignore it? Also, what does he do when the sun comes on - does he call for you?
I'm more a believer these days of food having adverse effects. I don't think a trial or ED can hurt anything at this point. It's not like you would be depriving him of anything, he can still eat well and healthily while doing a food trial.
(((hugs))). Hope things continue on the upward trend of STTN!
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I have just seen your post Karen. Thank you for posting again :) No I haven't . I have only eliminated dairy for a month or so. I have read that you need to eliminate for 4 to 6 weeks to be sure :( Do you think if M had food intolerances would he be able to have 4 months of STTN every night from 5.5 to 9 months of age?
Either way I'm secretly hoping it is not food intolerances as I don't even know where to start plus I won't have time and energy to do an elimination diet with him. I'm back on my studies in a week and I will be super busy and stressed working on my thesis :(
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Very possible with the STTN/food. Did he start new solids around 9 months? Possibly wheat or the like? Or it could have built up more in his system?
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Grants, do you have an inkling as to what might be causing the eczema? Did he get treated on wet heat as I remember that it got worse when he player with wet sand but not dry sand. What did your practitioner say about why the eczema is still there?
Woops posting the same time as you! You didn't prepare your thesis during your holidays?? Hehe sorry just teasing!! Hugsss
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So what happens when you leave Miguel if he wakes BEFORE the sunshine? You mentioned he's good for 30 mins, what do you do for the rest of the time? Do you call through his door to remind him? Or just ignore it? Also, what does he do when the sun comes on - does he call for you?
We have to leave him. Any human contact will drive him mad and he will want out straight away. He even makes himself cry real tears. So calling through the doors doesn’t work. We have tried that a few times. So for an easier life we decided to set the clock for more or less about 20 mins around his WU time. I just hate to hear the whole moan and cry for too long. But of course it doesn’t work that well sometimes when he is awake at 5am and the clock is set to 5:50am (it happened the day before yesterday when I forgot to re-set the clock as he had an early BT), In that case he will moan and cry after 25 mins or so of wait but we still leave him there until Mr sunshine come on.
I'm more a believer these days of food having adverse effects. I don't think a trial or ED can hurt anything at this point. It's not like you would be depriving him of anything, he can still eat well and healthily while doing a food trial.
For me it is not about the deprivation of nutrients as this can be worked at quite easily. The hardest bit for me is time, patience and the *social aspect* of things. I’m not a SAHM and not a very good and inspired cooker either :P LOL .M will be in nursery for 3 days a week ,then I will have to go through the whole 8 weeks meal plan at nursery, then watch very carefully every single event at nursery that might involve food. What happens when M really wants something that other kids are eating at a birthday parties or event at nursery and outside nursery? Then we go to the supermarket and he can’t have one of his favourite healthy snacks that are on the shelves , then we have to educate the grandparents , which can be challenging at times etc… You get the gist.And on top of it I will be super busy this year until June. So that’s why I’m secretly hoping it’s not food intolerances. I just can’t imagine how hard it must be for the other mothers to deal with an ED. I take my hat off to all the moms who have to do this.
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Or it could have built up more in his system?[/quote]
we did baby led weaning. We were pretty relaxed about the foods, so I didn't remember introducing anything new when he was 9 months that he wasn't already eating at 6 months.
Grants, do you have an inkling as to what might be causing the eczema? Did he get treated on wet heat as I remember that it got worse when he player with wet sand but not dry sand.
Thanks for reminding me about this Koe! :) I have just written it on my notebook; I have been writing all the things I want to test d
You didn't prepare your thesis during your holidays?? Hehe sorry just teasing!! Hugsss
I know….I’m rubbish aren’t I? I wanted to but I couldn’t be bothered lol :P Even if I did I would still need to collect data, write the results section and the discussion after the holidays anyway, so I thought I might as well do this when I’m on full mode !
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Do you think if M had food intolerances would he be able to have 4 months of STTN every night from 5.5 to 9 months of age?
I have suspected R to have dairy intolerance for a while. She slept really well from 3-7.5 months (well not really well but much better than 7 months +) and now her sleep is pretty rubbish. we saw the pead dietician and he said that it absolutely be food intolerances causing the disruptions. So even though she was exposed to dairy and sleeping ok doesn't mean the dairy isn't affecting her now and making the sleep worse. He stressed the build up and irritation of the gut and the knock on effect. we are back on monday so will be asking him more about it then.
What happens when M really wants something that other kids are eating at a birthday parties or event at nursery and outside nursery? Then we go to the supermarket and he can’t have one of his favourite healthy snacks that are on the shelves , then we have to educate the grandparents , which can be challenging at times etc…
This is one thing I am sad about. But for me if she needs to be off dairy for a while then so be it. Now M is older so will know more what he wants but you'd have to just provide alternatives he could have and be consistent with it. A little boy in my class was gluten and casein free and his mum sent in treats he could have at parties etc.
YAY for STTN last night!
{{{hugs}}}
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I have suspected R to have dairy intolerance for a while. She slept really well from 3-7.5 months (well not really well but much better than 7 months +) and now her sleep is pretty rubbish. we saw the pead dietician and he said that it absolutely be food intolerances causing the disruptions. So even though she was exposed to dairy and sleeping ok doesn't mean the dairy isn't affecting her now and making the sleep worse. He stressed the build up and irritation of the gut and the knock on effect. we are back on monday so will be asking him more about it then.
Shiv, if I can remember correctly you are in the UK? You can reply to that via PM if you prefer. If so, how on earth you managed to get a referral for a pead dietician? :o These GPs are so unhelpful!!!! :( How your dietician could be absolutely sure about the food intolerances? Have you done an ED with R before? Was she having sickness or refluxes ? M never had sickness or reflux. I think because of that the already unhelpful GPs won't want to give a referral
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Am indeed. My GP was flipping useless. I went in and showed him in writing how I started weaning and things changed when she got dairy and then how i eliminated it and symptoms decreased (but didn't disappear) and how I wanted to speak to someone about an ED and food alternatives for the dairy etc. The only symptoms R had were mucousy nappies and really bad tummy pains after eating dairy and really bad NWs. He was totally scathing. Told me to just keep giving her dairy and she'd get used to it. So i said well actually I had read that it was best to do an ED and rest the gut and he bumbled about and told me to contact my HV!! Said she would get me to try dairy and then eliminate it and see if there was an issue. So basically do what i'd already done!!
So I rang the HV and explained it all and she said she could refer me on to the paed dietician and the feeding team herself. She basically said the doctor was a halfwit. So that was at 7 months and we just got a phone consult recently and have an appt at the feeding clinic next week. So it has taken a long time to come through given that i wanted help with weaning her. I removed all dairy from her diet for 6-8 weeks but not from mine. I cut back on dairy when she was very little and her symptoms got much better so I continued to cut back and only had milk in tea. I then started butter on toast which she seemed to tolerate well. Then some cheese. Then milk in cereal. But as i've increased the amount her NWs have gotten atrocious again. Really bad. And I know its discomfort in some form.
And at this stage I would love some sleep so am willing to try her on an ED again and probably me too as am still BFing to see if things resolve. We were all set to sleep train this week as DH is off work but I think she is in discomfort so there is little point.
Could your HV refer you? TBH I am really blunt with our GPs and did just say i wanted a referral to the dietician and he said the route here is through the HV. Had it not been I would have been back to him to get him to do it. Waiting lists are atrocious though.
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See, DS didn’t/ doesn’t have any physical issues (reflux, mucous poops, bad tummy pains or any other kind of sickness), apart from the eczema which started a few months ago and is getting much better( 85% better with the NAET treatment). The way to go about it will be to complain about the sleep issues then. I have been to different GPs at my practice (they have quite a few in there) and all they do with the eczema is give different creams. One of the doc’s kids even has eczema themselves and all she does is changing the creams? So conventional professionals, at least in the UK, don’t think eczema is food related :(
DS seemed to be fine for dairy. I breastfed him for only 4 months. As true to his spiritedness one day he decided he didn’t want my milk anymore. He refused for hours then we had to give him a bottle and he took the bottle offered. 2 days later, after I had been suffering from mastitis and in so much pain, he decided he wanted the breast again. By then I was like, No way! I will not give you the breast for you to refuse and I end up with mastitis again. LOL So that was that and we started to use the Hipp Organic formula instead. So I can’t really make any obvious connections with his food though???? Plus his diet doesn’t change that much as he is a picky eater and he seems to have good nights and bad nights on the same kind of food???? But of course I would not tell the GP that otherwise they will rule out the food.
TBH I am really blunt with our GPs and did just say i wanted a referral to the dietician
Yep! That is what we have learned! I’m not very confrontational. I find it hard to put my foot down with these GPs but when we need it done DH comes with me to the appointments. He has a way of talking to them that in the end they just agree with him and even apologise. Lol I love watching DH in action Lol So if we are going to do that I’m def going to take DH with me :P
My current plan, before all this discussion about food allergies start was to 1) To finish NAET treatment. This Friday we are going to test another few things and if DS is strong for them I will give him a break on the treatments. I def think his body needs a break now. Plus we are completely broke ATM .it was not cheap to have all these treatments. 2) To wait for him to go through his GS, 3) Go to the GP if the NWs continue after the treatments and the GS. I would not go to the GP, at first, saying that I wanted a referral for the dietician. I was planning to say " this is what is happening (xyz) I have tried(abcd….xyz….) everything and nothing worked so what would *you* suggest? " I want him to give me suggestions first instead of me giving him the answer. I'm tired of telling these GPs what to do. They must come up with something. I was planning to book with a really lovely doctor there. He is very good and helpful. But unfortunately I don't get to see him very often as he is a part-timer and it takes ages to be able to see him. But for something like this I can book in advance .Do you guys think this is a good plan?
Please also bear in mind that DS has already been treated through NAET for Melatonin, Serotonin, Dopamine, Cortisol , Cortisone and Acetylcholine Chloride. These are all hormones and neurotransmitters associated with sleep issues and DS was weak to all of them, hence the need to treat them. So DS seems to be a bit messed up on the sleep front regardless of the food intolerances. What Koe and Eloise think about these NAET treatments?
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Do you remember what might have triggered the eczema a few month ago? New environment, new food, weather change? I would definitely get her to check warm humidity. That could very well be the cause. I was allergic to cold, heat and I think I am still allergic to cold/wind, wet/wind.
If only we could test and treat others ourselves!! I think you are very close to the root.
Hugss
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Do you remember what might have triggered the eczema a few month ago? New environment, new food, weather change?
Not any idea at all??? It started in the end of winter and lasted the whole summer but slowly getting better with the NAET treatments. So weather change doesn't make sense in this case?
Re: the sleep issues. What do you think about the quote below in relation to the treatments? Any personal experiences and/or thoughts?
Please also bear in mind that DS has already been treated through NAET for Melatonin, Serotonin, Dopamine, Cortisol , Cortisone and Acetylcholine Chloride. These are all hormones and neurotransmitters associated with sleep issues and DS was weak to all of them, hence the need to treat them. So DS seems to be a bit messed up on the sleep front regardless of the food intolerances. What Koe and Eloise think about these NAET treatments?
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My experience with sleep issues is always with allergies, environmental and food. I haven't even got tested with those things u listed but I mostly sleep better now except a few odd occasions and then we found out yet another allergy. That is also why I suggest to retest 15 basics. I think u have come a long way having resolved the problems with those hormones.
I am sorry that I have no idea. My practitioner usually listens to what my feelings were and what I did and I told her about anything unusual that I noticed. She would then pull out boxes of vials to test and she has a good guess of what to look for. But like last appointment, she tested so many things in a very short time. Perhaps she had no idea either, just test as many as possible until she found it. She found the allergy that caused the back pain and back stiffness which is pretty much gone but I have muscle pain elsewhere. Plus I have unusually heavy period right now, so my body is changing. So M has been going through a lot of changes or perhaps these treatments triggered developments also, like the production of those hormones, etc.
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That is also why I suggest to retest 15 basics.
Yes and thank you for that its already on my notebook. hehe
Plus I have unusually heavy period right now, so my body is changing. So M has been going through a lot of changes or perhaps these treatments triggered developments also, like the production of those hormones, etc.
This is so true! DS’s body had an imbalance on all of those hormones and neurotransmitters . So it def takes a little time for his body to adjust or re-adjust.
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DS had a lovely day at nursey in the new room. He didn't even want to come to me when I walked in to pick him up! This was the first time ever! Apparently he fell asleep straight away on the mats. So thank God he had a whole hour nap.
We had another super busy evening after nursery with loads of wrestling, DS helping DH with DIY etc... and a short wind out. I was trying to replicate yesterday evening. I always find myself replicating BT from the day before after a good night. he was asleep by 7:50pm about 10 mins later than yesterday. Hoping for another good night.
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That is great!! Perhaps he will get regular nap in the new room!
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That is great!! Perhaps he will get regular nap in the new room!
He has always had regular naps at nursery. I was just a bit concerned about him taking ages to adapt with naps on the mats in the new room, but luckily he was fine with it on the first day :)
Ladies, another terrible night! Argh!! DS had multiples NWs (11pm, 3am, 3:30am and was on and off from 4am until 5:50am.I gave him meds but it didn't help????? Needless to say that DH and I are knackered. DS woke up in a mess. He was in an awful mood ( he is rarely likes that in the mornings). Laying on the floor, not wanting to go downstairs, crying, moaning. He was back to his normal self when we took him dowstairs for breakfast.Bad nights like this+ the mood would mean sickness to most los but M has horrible nights like this even when he is not sick :( He could be teething as his nose was running first thing in the morning but it stopped as soon as I got him up. Who knows? I can’t read him. I’m at a loss.I asked nursery to give him extra 30 mins sleep today. There is no point pushing him for 1 hour nap when he is so tired. Plus he has been on 1 hour naps for 10 days now and I can't see any difference :( . The fact that he moved rooms in nursery is not helping the situation. It took him about 2 months to get better sleep after moving from the baby room to the toddlers' room. He was OS for 2 months after the move :( I wonder how long it will take in this new room?????
Anyway, I have 2 new threads investigating possible solutions to the problem. Here are the links if any of you want to post. I welcome new ideas as well. Thanks
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=216980.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=216981.0
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Hey Grants, sorry you had a bad night :( I haven't read back through the entire thread but whenever we get one good night followed by one bad night it's a routine issue - usually the nap is still a bit too long and after the good night LO is too rested to sleep well the next night. I would usually try to stick the regular nap length, even after a bad night, (maybe give an extra 10mins if they're really hanging but I prefer to do earlier bed instead) and then cut the nap a bit more after the next good night. If that makes any sense!!
For us, giving a longer nap to make up for a bad night just perpetuated the cycle :-\
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Thanks you for your input KDee. How bad are your los’ nights? Do they have horrible and constant NWs independently of routine change? Are your NWs sorted now?
The thread has developed to a different discussion.I also had other threads in the past. Our issue seems to be more than only a routine issue. It has been going on for too long and I have BTDT thinking that the longer nap would mess up the night. I think there is an underlying issue here. I just need to find it out.
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I do really think there is something food related going on. And since I haven't seen the greatest results in NAET IRL (those that live close to me), I do think you might have to investigate beyond that with food eliminations. Since you already tried dairy for 4 weeks maybe try wheat/gluten as it's another common problem? HUGS for the bad night...
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Apologies for butting in.
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No problems Kdee. I'm still curious about your lo though. You didn't answer my questions :P ;) are your Los sleeping better?
Karen, Did your IRL friends have food intolerances? Is that why were they treating with NAET? It's so odd that NAET doesn't work for some people ? It did wonders for me. Did you see my good news thread about it a few weeks ago ? It cured me from my Allergies. I can now take medications again. M's eczema is also so much better with the treatments.It's really strange that NAET doesn't work for some people ?
I'm not sure if I want to start an ED right now? It's like shooting in the dark. I have no clue where to start and how to start plus I also don't have a gut feeling about the culprit as M is always happy during the day? I was thinking about doing a IgG test at least I would know where to start. I started a thread on the food allergy board about the test. I'm still waiting for UK replies.
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From what I've heard from IRL people it works better for allergies than intolerances and better for adults. But I don't have personal experience with NAET beyond that. If you can get an IgG test (and a celiac test perhaps) that would be a great start.
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I forgot to mention that I also booked an appointment with the GP. I will try to push for a sleep study. I also have a thread on that. I'm trying everything I can ATM. I hope I can find the answer soon.
Posting at the same time.
How does the celiac test work? What does that involve?
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They can run a blood test for celiac at the same time they do an IgG test. The IgG test would show if he has an INTOLERANCE to wheat/other grains, the celiac test would show if he actually lacks the antibodies to digest them (which is a lifelong management issue if so).
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Thanks Karen, so the Celiac test is also done by a holistic doctor as opposed to a conventional doctor ? So I can't really ask my GP for a celiac test or can I ? Sorry for asking all these questions. I just have no clue where to start as I have no experience with this. Plus I would love to cut costs as we are broke atm doing the NAET treatments. So if the GP would do it could be a great financial help for us.
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A regular doctor or a holistic one can run a celiac test. DD's Ped ran one for us easily when she was less than 2...
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Ok. Thanks I will put that on my list to ask the GP.
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Thinking about doing GW with him at BT to get him to sleep by himself again. WI/WO doesn't work at all.It really winds him up, so my only option is GW. I have tried GW before but he keeps on watching me to see if I'm going to leave the room. He doesn't relax. Any tips ladies?
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My boy has bags under his eyes :( it's his birthday party today. He is so happy and jumping around helping us blow up balloons since 6am this morning. But I'm so worried about his health :( I don't know how long he is going to be able to handle this lack of sleep????? Im so concerned about his general health. I remembered something today: Bach's remedies. I used to take them ages ago. I will look for the children' version today.
Have anybody had success with Bach's remedies for children before ?
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Hugs Hun.
Never heard of Bachs, sorry.
With GW you would have to move through the steps quite quickly at this age. Given M's age and temperament I would start on a chair at the door. Into bed and say your sleepy phrase then sit on the chair. I probably wouldn't say anything else from that point except your sleepy phrase but even then I wouldn't say it. Sit with your back to him and don't comment on him checking you or anything. I'd do that for a few night then move the chair out the door. Once out of sight you stay out of sight and reassure with your voice. I wouldn't do WI/WO as he'll be confused and think if you are coming back in the you may be staying KWIM?
Can I check about the gro clock? So he'll wait on his own when he wakes until the sun comes up? But only for 10-15 minutes? So do you change the time the sun comes on accordingly to what time you think he'll wake? I wonder should you start being stricter about it and making a set wake up time that is reasonable for you and DH? So if he can wait 15 minutes without protesting start making it 20 for a week o
then 25 until you are at a set reasonable wake up?
From what you are saying M is happy and makes it through the day great and full of energy so at this stage I think making sure you and DH are getting proper rest is the priority and I think I would start with working on a consistent later wake up and getting him to settle independently at bedtime. Does he settle independently for naps?
Hope you all have a lovely party today and M enjoys all the fuss xx
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Thanks for the reply Shiv. Yes we are already doing the GW. It was day 2 last evening. We did exactly how you suggested, apart from the chair . DH is standing near the door with his back to him. It's going well so far. It's a bit easier as he didn't need touch only our presence in the room. We def won't do WI/WO as it doesn't work with him . Last time we did it he would not give in even after 5 days. He screamed the house down for 1.5 hours, then developed a ' cot fear' after that. It took around a week for him to get comfortable in his room again :(
Yes. He does wait for the clock for about 15 mins. We have tried to length the time several times but he just gets so irritated and won't wait for long periods. So for our own sake we set the clock around his wake up time. DH and I can't take the moan and cry at that time in the morning. Plus we have to consider the neighbours :(
Yes. The Groclock is set for 5:45am every day. I only change it when we have early BT. But this is very rare here. Last time we had an early BT I forgot to set the clock and oh boy! He was moaning and crying for the last 20 mins of wait. We didn't go in but it was hard work to wait through the whole drama :(
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wow - this IS a long thread (thought you meant a long post!!) - will read it all once the LOs are in bed tonight ....
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Grants, I am going to trawl back and try and answer your questions re food intolerances now. I am finding it hard to keep up, Maybe a new thread ? or else we can take this convo off line. :)
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Thank you for posting Eloise! I really appreciate all your thoughts
Quote from: EloysH on September 06, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
It just seems so similar to Kai's story. Kai had 6 weeks of Nw'ing every 2nd or 3rd night coupled with EW/s of 5am or so at about the age of 12-14 months. Because it went on for so long it was kind of a blessing in disguise because we were able to say that no, we have ruled out any prop issues, no, you can't be teething for that long. No, sicknesses are finished. We finally cracked it when we eliminated troublesome foods. He was always a bad sleeper, but we got to place where he was sleep trained so many times that we knew he could do it if he wanted but he continued to wake at night and EW.
Did Kai have a good stretch of sleeping through the night consistently like M? DS slept through the night from around 5.5 months to around 9 months. Almost 4 months of good STTN every single night but still EWs. But I’m not too concerned with his EWs. DH and I are early risers and this is very much DH and mine body clock. I’m more concerned with the NWs. Can he have food intolerance even though he managed to STTN for all those months in the past? Did Kai sleep through the night consistently for a few months before his NWs started?
Quote from: EloysH on September 06, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
This is based on the assumption that you can rule out 2 year molars, the reason I am ruling out the molars is that he seems rather happy during the day?
M has never been affected by teething during the day. He is always happy during the days. He was like this for all 16 teeth. Teething only seems to bother him during the night. I never gave him meds during the day for teething.
Quote from: EloysH on September 06, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
You said he finds it hard to wind down (I am asssuming that is a norm as opposed to OT?).
Yes. It’s more like a norm, even when I’m 100% certain he is not OT due to good naps and good nights he still takes a while to switch off at BT. I think this is more a trait thing. I used to be like this myself. Not as a baby/toddler but when I was a teenager and young adult. I have learned how to relax now, so I don’t have that problem very often anymore.
Quote from: EloysH on September 06, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
Kai isn't hyper as such but if he is having troubles with food he is certainly restless in the day a little wired and distractable and grouchy. I can see the difference. He is also more demanding, and cranky as if he is OT, but it goes on and on for weeks.. and is linked to the NWing. You could say of course he would be like that - he NW's. Well that could be true too. But we have evidence because by taking the foods out, the NW's disappeared.
This is a difficult one to put my finger on as he is very, very happy even though he has NWs. Some days, not always, when he has bad nights he will be a bit grumpy in the mornings. But still energetic and happy, if this makes any sense?! And his mood will get better after he has his nap. I think this would happen even to us, adults, if/when we had a bad night, iykwim?! Plus this in only on rare occasions he is not grouchy every day after bad nights. He is very energetic but he is spirited so it’s hard to draw the line between temperament and food intolerances. Like for example, distractibility or perceptiveness, a more positive way of calling it. It’s very much a spirited trait. So he will stop at every corner to watch a flower, a stone, a cat, a bicycle, a truck…etc… but this is part of his spiritedness, yk?! But he can concentrate very well. He can sit for at least 30 mins to work on puzzles if he feels like it, so although he is very energetic he has no problem concentrating.
Phew! There was a lot of food for thought on your post. I think I have managed to ask you all the questions I ewanted. I hope I’m not missing anything
To answer in order:
1. Kai never really was a good sleeper. He was prop dependent on and off , it wasn't until he was weaned from BF at 12 months that I really got a handle on his NW'ing. Having said that, I need to say that food intolerance symptoms can crop up at ANY time. THe nature of food intolerances that reactions are the result of a build up of the intolerabe substance, at one point the gut can no longer process/digest the food properly and symptoms start to show.
2. The jury is out on teeth, I would read between the lines to say it is not teeth.
After reading back through the recent posts, what I really have to add now is this: -
If you can be sure that you have ruled out all the behavioural reasons for the night waking , you can rule out teeth, then there are not many places to explore left. That is why I am bringing up food intolerances. But it looks like you still have some avenues to put to rest re the independent sleep at bedtime... so maybe really have a good go at that first, then if he is still having long night wakings every few nights, then proceed with elimination diet - food intolerance route.
With Kai, we were 100% sure that he was able to go down for all sleeps independently before we decided that all this Ap'ing during long night wakings really was related to pain (sore tummy and food intolerances) and not behavioural. We really did feel that he was in discomfort at night, as he was falling asleep many times into a lgiht sleep and then waking up again to us with what seemed discomfort.
Does that help ?
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Have given up trying to read the whole thread!
How many hours did he sleep before he dropped the 2nd nap?
Do you consistently put him to bed at the same time each night? If he takes a long time to wind down what time do you start this process? We feed Murray (very spiritied!!) at 5.30pm then he goes for a long bath, then story etc so is in bed at 7pm so he actually has a quiet 1.5 hours before he has to sleep.
Do you have music in his room? I find this really helps Murray - maybe classical music, or hypnobirthing soundtrack (Steven Halpern, the Comfort Zone) - we keep it on all night ...
When he wakes would he lie in bed next to you or go back to sleep if you were in his room (cot,even!!?)?
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Yes Eloise, I also think that we have to get him back to sleeping independently. He knows how to do it but he just chooses not to at home. He has no problems falling asleep independently at nursery. Around 4 months ago he started to insist on having us in the room then we tried WI/WO and it was a disaster as mentioned above. So we have been staying in his room since then.
BTW, M doesn't have long NWs all the time though. Long NWs normally only happens when he is in pain or/and due to UT.
Lucy, you have a point about the music. We will def look into that. Funnily enough, one of the carers in the new room at nursery mentioned the same thing as they also use music in the new room at nap times. Does Murray sleep well with music? How long have you been doing this for ?
Re: wind down. I have tried it all and it doesn't matter how long or how short the wind down is it doesn't make a difference in his nights. In fact a very long wind down can wind him up ::)
up.
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we tried WI/WO and it was a disaster as mentioned above. So we have been staying in his room since then.
gradual withdrawal? each nap/night get a few steps closer to the door, or every few mins take a small step to the door ...
Does Murray sleep well with music? How long have you been doing this for ?
We did the music in his room from when he was tiny - it was the hypnobirthing and Mozart cd I listened to when I was pregnant. Over time we used other cd's and recently we put the radio on (Radio 1 etc now!!) - I know that when I am studying etc I actually work better with background music/tv on so guess Murray is the same. Also, if I can't sleep at night the tv gives me something to focus on and I end up falling asleep .... (not that I suggest tv for lo's!!)
I would talk to the nursery and see how they put him to sleep and try it at home - talk about it before hand and do the same as they do ..... hopefully if he is getting to sleep without you in the room (Eventually) when he wakens he isn't expecting you there so may fall back asleep again.
Sorry you are having a tough time - I reckon we should keep a note of their sleep and when they are teenagers go day-by-day through their routine for a year or two (ie get THEM up at the times they got us up as our bodies will be so used to nw/ew it will be hard to get out of the habit, while they have their hormones to tire them out) ;)
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Maeve falls asleep to music and it really helps her relax and gives her something to concentrate on. For a while there she was flat out listening to a christmas cd she found and it was driving me bonkers so have hidden it until its a bit closer to christmas! So now she's listening to my IPOD and whatever random music is on there.
Hope you'd a good party today xx
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Lucy , it's impossible to replicate the nursery setting. All the Los who still have naps go on matts on the floor after lunch and sleep. Apparently M is brilliant at it. Fall asleep straight away with no problems ::) at least I know my sleep training was not totally in vain lol
Yes. The music idea is brilliant! M used to have an old IPOD in his room with classical music. We only used it when he was a baby for bath and wind down but not for sleep.
Shiv, the birthday party was fantastic !!! ;D M enjoyed himself so much! He was a perfect host. He would run to the door as soon as he heard the bell. Opened all his presents by himself. Blew candles very nicely. It was lovely to see him enjoying himself with his little friends. :)
But all the excitement meant that GW today didn't work . He was super agitated at BT was chatting very loud. In the end DH had to caress his hair for a minute or so to help him relax.
Question for you ladies , at what age Los start to have nightmares? M has started to wake up once a night, instead of numerous times, calling me with a very distressed type of crying :( he is def anxious/ fearful or perhaps even having some nightmares ?????
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Sounds like a lovely party :)
Murray had the occasional nightmare around that age - he just needed a cuddle and got back to sleep. Poor wee boys, wonder what they dream about!
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Karen and Eloise I have a question for you. I just want to clarify that I’m not challenging or doubting your views. I know you both have a valid point and I’m really grateful for your ideas and input. I just want to understand the whole food intolerances scenario.
OK , to ask the question I will have to tell you about M’s routine and foods yesterday.
He had Weetabix (wheat cereal) with rice milk for breakfast, and then at around 8:30am he asked for shreddies (another whole grain wheat cereal). He was really tired and started to moan and cry for no apparent reason around 10:10am. (Remember yesterday he had bags under his eyes :( ) So I took him upstairs and he napped from 10:30am to 12:15pm. We had his birthday party at 13:30 so I let him sleep for as much as he wanted. I let him choose from the birthday nibbles for lunch. So he only chose unsalted tortillas, red and green grapes ::). He didn’t want any of the homemade quiches and little sandwiches that I made and of course didn’t touch the guacamole. Then his little guests started to arrive. He ate tortillas and grapes on the go for the whole afternoon. He had quite a lot of juice (not from concentrate, natural orange and apple juice). I normally don’t give him juice but it was his birthday so I let him have it. After the guests left he asked me for cheese and olives I gave him some. We went upstairs for wind down with a glass of rice milk. That was it for the day. He STTN last night from 6:55pm to 5:50 am.
So here is my question: If he had food intolerances to dairy or/and wheat, fructose, citrus fruit etc…how could he have slept through the night have eaten quite a lot of those? As you both said it is cumulative. So he has wheat, dairy and lots of fruit every day?????
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Well that is alot of dairy wheat and salicylates :) and happy birthday M! Glad he had a great day. ;D It might be preservatives or additives, maybe his threshold is high enough that he can handle quite a bit of whatever he is intolerant to and then tips over the edge. When Kai was having his episode of 6 weeks of night waking the pattern was sttn the night 1-2 nights then NW for 1-2 nights. He was having varying amounts of dairy, somedays none and other days more. Sometimes we got 3 sttn but never more than that. So sttn is part of the equation with a food reaction for us. I guess he was sttn because he would get really tired from the NW's, then once he had made up his sleep debt with somesttns and long naps he would be awake and restless throughout the night and falling in and out of light sleep, clearly uncomfortable. (mind you he was only napping 1.5 hours a day at 12 months old and about 10 hours at night... since we sorted it out ne naps more (2 hours) and has longer nights sleep 10.5 -11 hours). So again the persistence of the night waking is a major clue.
Just going back a step, I think food intolerance is only probable once you have ruled out props and feel 100% that he is going down for all sleeps independently. Behavioural & tempermanent is so much more likely to be the culprit for night wakings. We weren't ready to blame food until everything else has been ruled out, which is why it took 6-8 weeks of hell to figure out :)
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So glad you had a lovely day and M enjoyed his party and yay for STTN!
I think doing an ED is a huge challenge for all involved. And you do have to be sure that there is nothing else at play before you do it. So i agree with this:
Just going back a step, I think food intolerance is only probable once you have ruled out props and feel 100% that he is going down for all sleeps independently. Behavioural & tempermanent is so much more likely to be the culprit for night wakings.
I would put your plan for GW in place and stick with it. I know you said he was very OT last night and DH ended up stroking his head but once you put the plan in place you really have to stick at it. Certainly help him winddown but once you say your sleepy phrase and move away, you are away. Its not like doing GW with a smaller baby where you can go back to check and help if they are getting worked up. At this age you don't as it is just too too confusing.
You have to beable to let go of the fear that he is going to wind himself up and go to bed even later and then you might have NWs etc because you are teaching a skill and he has to be allowed to relearn getting himself to sleep. Its not the biggest deal as you were only 1 night in to your GW but once you are a few days in going back to help him settle will set things back further again as the LO learns 'ah i just need to do x and they come back anyways' and they will always up the ante. You have to be in a position to let him learn he is starting to settle himself and ride out the nights as best you can until he has learned the skill.
Which is why I think you need to move through it quickly. 3 days in the room. 3 days at the door. 3 days outside. Then out of sight reassuring just with your voice.
How do you settle NWs? Do you go in reassure and leave? Or stay with him until he is back asleep? Again from a food intolerance point of view until he is resettling himself or even with you just popping in and saying 'still sleepy time' and kiss and out, you will never know if its because he needs you to be there or because he is in discomfort. And obviously that is me assuming he doesn't resettle for NWs alone or with minimal help.
{{{{hugs}}}}}
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Thank you for posting ladies :) I want to use your quotes but I'm on my phone.
Eloise , it's interesting that you found a pattern with Kai. If after all the efforts DS still continues with the bad nights. I will start a new diary with the NWs. I have done it once but I couldn't find any pattern with his nights. It is also very interesting the comment about high threshold. My NAET practitioner also said that.
Shiv, last night was our third night of GW. DH started by standing near the door with his back to DS. This evening he standed outside DS's door but left the door open. So we will do it with the door open another 2 nights and then we are planning to close the door and leave him to it with a little book or/and a toy.What do think about the book and toy idea ? It only took DS 12 mins to fall asleep tonight. He was pretty loud though shouting DH by his name . Pretty funny and cute. DH ignored most of it but when he got super loud DH used the sleep phrase (only twice more). Is the while techinique sounding alright to you?
At night we tend to leave DS to it. If the moan persists we go in. For example: If DS moans a few times and stop I won't go in. But if he moans for too long I go in and cover him. I don't say anything just walk in , do a sush sound cover him and leave. Now he has a new thing about shouting for me in a very distressed type of cry. In that case DH or I will go in as otherwise it escalates to the point that he is wide awake. TBH we were/are traumatised with the long NWs and by the fact that if we left him to it for too long it took twice as long to settle him so we started to go in more often just in case he would wake himself up to a point of needing us to stay in his room with him. All too Complicated :(
Anyway, I forgot to mention that DS also settled by himself at nap time today. So far so good :) . I'm amazed by the fact that he hasn't forgotten how to settle by himself after 4 months of having us in his room with him???????
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That is sounding really positive :)
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Shiv, last night was our third night of GW. DH started by standing near the door with his back to DS. This evening he standed outside DS's door but left the door open. So we will do it with the door open another 2 nights and then we are planning to close the door and leave him to it with a little book or/and a toy.What do think about the book and toy idea ? It only took DS 12 mins to fall asleep tonight. He was pretty loud though shouting DH by his name . Pretty funny and cute. DH ignored most of it but when he got super loud DH used the sleep phrase (only twice more). Is the while techinique sounding alright to you?
This sounds perfect! Its fine to use your sleep phrase just don't go back in or move from your spot. Well done M!!!!
Thats great about how you tackle NWs.
Is he having night terrors do you think? I remember M having those at about 2 YO and they were awful. Were worse if she was OT. Even now if she if really tired her sleep is disrupted and she thrashes about and calls me and talks in her sleep. The other night she was crying in her sleep and shouting that DH took her milk and to give it back! The good thing is although its hard for us to hear they don't remember it xx
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Is he having night terrors do you think? I remember M having those at about 2 YO and they were awful. Were worse if she was OT. Even now if she if really tired her sleep is disrupted and she thrashes about and calls me and talks in her sleep. The other night she was crying in her sleep and shouting that DH took her milk and to give it back! The good thing is although its hard for us to hear they don't remember it xx
M had only 1 night terror so far. It was awful! :( These could be nightmares? But these are def not night terrors. How do you deal with your M night terrors? Do you go to her room? When M had his night terror we were not sure what was going on? He was crying inconsolably. Nothing would stop him :(. The next morning I did some research on it and found out it was a night terror.
Shiv, Do you think It is a good idea to give DS a book or/and a toy on the night we are planning to close his room door (in 2 nights) ?
I will never know what helped DS though. NAET or GW or both????? Last Friday the practitioner also treated his fear and anxiety at BT and during the night( by a technique called NET) Plus he was treated on Adrenal glands together with Adrenaline. He only has another 2 treatments left (related to his eczema, not sleep related treatments) Too many variables so I will never know……
Now I’m the one who can’t sleep. It is 3:30 in the morning and I’m here typing :(
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OMG!! Another STTN! ;D But this morning was a bit of a disaster. DS was up at 5am on the dot. He started to shout DH in a good mood voice. DH told him ,through the door, to wait for the sun and he went quiet for 30 mins! :o :o :o Then from 5:30 until the sun came on (5:45am) he cried really hard. We didn't go in but it was torture to leave him so upset. DH reassured him only once more through the door during the 15 mins drama, then DH went in at 5:45am and DS was understandably very touchy as he was left to cry for 15 mins, plus he was very confused as when he looked through the windown it was pitch black. It must be so hard for them when the seasons change :(
Moral of the story. We will have to go back to 7:30/ 7:45pm BT instead of 7pm as 5am wake up is def a *no* for us. ::)
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Good news on STTN and staying quiet for 30 mins!! Wow
Can u tell me more about NET perhaps on PM?
Do you still have the living pain free book, there are points for insomnia and it might help falling back to sleep! Or ask at M's next appointment. Being away at specific hours can indicate blockage in the corresponding meridian. You can massage the gate points also and think about sleep. HTH
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Hi ladies,
I just want to let you know that M is finally STTN, ;D with the odd bad night due to teething or any other normal variable. He still has EWs and short nights but at least now I’m not concerned for his health as he doesn't have disturbed nights. I hope it lasts... Thank you so much for all your help and support.
:) :-*
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WOW - fantastic news!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hope you haven't jinxed it by posting (that always happens to me!) ::)
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I know I was thinking the same about jinxing it. That's why I was avoiding to post but I wanted to thank you ladies before I go ;) :P