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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: kiansmam on July 27, 2011, 11:20:26 am

Title: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 27, 2011, 11:20:26 am
As alot of you know i've struggled getting k to wake a bit later in the mornings and my mind is working over time trying to figure out why he's awake so early. This has been going on for a couple of months now and i'am now at the point where some days i can't see straight through tiredness.
Here's his routine
Awake 5am give or take 15mins
nap 12:30-2pm give or take 15mins
bed 07:15-07:30pm

His room is nice and dark and even at 5am in the morning his room is still dark. Any ideas plz
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: Sam-n-Max's Mommy on July 27, 2011, 11:54:20 am
Hi kiansmam - (((Hugs))) - I don't know how much advice I can offer here, but can tell you that we go through the EXACT same thing.  Sam's schedule is almost identical.  We go through cycles where the WU is a bit later (like 6am after a 7:30 BT), but the past two weeks have been ridiculously bad.  We've also had some NWs next week. 

My DH laughs at me and it has become a joke because I am always saying it's because of Sam's teeth, but I really think it is...I don't know what else it could be.  Is Kian teething?  This has been going on since Sam turned 1 (on and off) and it was then that he started with his molars.  He currently has all of the molars in (as of last week) and has one canine to go (which is causing major issues now).  He is a very slow teether.  I am wondering if this is what is happening with Kian?   When he wakes, does he cry or is he happy in his crib?

Many people on here recommend a meds DF to get the teething toddler to sleep a bit longer in the AM.  It hasn't worked for me because I can't seem to not wake him up when I'm doing it ::), but it is a good idea if you can do it right (I am inept at it unfortunately). 

I am hoping for both of our sakes that it is definitely teething -- because then at least we know there is an end in sight! (((Hugs)))
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: Sam-n-Max's Mommy on July 27, 2011, 11:55:12 am
and I often feel the same way as you've titled your post!
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 27, 2011, 11:55:59 am
My guess would be a) teeth and b) overtired. He's only getting 11hrs in 24. I'd try bringing his nap and bedtime both earlier.
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 27, 2011, 12:02:07 pm
He's cut all 4 molars and doesn't show any signs of teething atm, he always wakes up crying and has done since a baby. I'll try the earlier nap/bedtime and see how that goes for a while. If this works, how do i move his day back again so that he's napping at 12:30 and bedtime at 7:30, with hopefully a later wake up? Thanks
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 27, 2011, 12:03:58 pm
How old is he now?

I'd start by getting some consistently longer nights and then move EVERYTHING 15 mins later every few days - meal times, naps, bedtime routine etc.

What happens now when he wakes at 5am do you just get up and start your day?
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 27, 2011, 12:13:02 pm
Hi anna, he's 17 months old. Initially when he started this a couple of months ago (previously sleeping till 6-6:30am. I think it was when he was cutting his molars it all started) I tried a couple of methods and was consistent with them for a while, but nothing helped. It has now gotton to the point that yes we start our day at this time. The other day he did wake at 4am, but there was no way i was starting the day then. I gave him a little cuddle and put him back down to which he started crying straight away. If i held him he was ok. I kept trying pu/pd till 5am when i gave in as he was waking the rest of the house up.
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 27, 2011, 12:28:09 pm
Well that's the other thing, to decide what is the earliest time you will start your day and don't budge on that. If he always gets his morning milk at 5am and his breakfast at 6 (for example), he'll wake because he's hungry for them. Have you done WIWO at your morning wakings? I'd try that for at least a week, and then failing that I'd cuddle him in his bedroom in the dark and quiet until 6am, and then open the curtains, be happy mummy and 'hello good morning!' and then do breakfast etc.

Re the teething, has he got his canines through?
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: Sam-n-Max's Mommy on July 27, 2011, 13:06:59 pm
Kiansmam, our sons sound like twins.

I was going to ask about canines too.  It is hard to see when they are coming in due to their placement in the mouth, and sometimes even when the teething isn't affecting the daytime, it's affecting the night time (that has been hard for me to get my arms around, but I think it's true).  I think Sam started teething the canines way before any actually popped through and tbh while the molars were bad, the canines have been worse.  I think they really bother LOs even when they are moving beneath the gum, not just cutting.

The unfortunate thing is that bad teething often does cause OT (as Anna has suggested) and then you get stuck in a cycle.  I agree with Anna's suggestion to try bringing everything forward temporarily.  I have been trying this and it has helped a bit. 

 
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 27, 2011, 18:44:30 pm
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to give it go and see what happens. Tbh I didn't he was teething but I've just had a look and his two top canines are about to pop and I can see the two bottom ones are really close to the surface. Can this be causing the ew? X
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 27, 2011, 18:47:47 pm
Canines are brutal, seriously the worst teeth we had to contend with, so yes I would say they can DEFINITELY mess with sleep. One thing you could try is sneaking into his room with a syringe of Calpol or Nurofen at about 2am - that will give you an ideal if it is discomfort waking him.
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: sianie on July 27, 2011, 19:04:30 pm
I agree with Anna, canines can reek havoc on sleep so I'm sure they are to blame!
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: Sam-n-Max's Mommy on July 27, 2011, 20:04:07 pm
I've about had it with the canines myself, so (((hugs))) :)
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 28, 2011, 04:26:25 am
Ok, I'm going to give it a go. What time should I do nap and bedtime x
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 28, 2011, 07:07:08 am
I'd try a 5.5hr A time in the morning, nap as long as he wants, and a 6.30 latest bedtime (6pm if the nap was less than 2hrs).
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 28, 2011, 07:29:30 am
Ok, I hope it don't back fire and he's up earlier lol. Thanks
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 28, 2011, 07:56:04 am
Me too! ;) :-* let us know how it goes.
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: Sam-n-Max's Mommy on July 28, 2011, 11:57:28 am
I did an early bedtime myself last night and DS was up early, but he did get more sleep than he's been getting so even though I'm tired, I'm hoping it's kind of like a short term investment in long term later sleep (like maybe in time for the weekend??)   ;D
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 30, 2011, 06:32:36 am
Well it has back fired and I've been having 4:30am wake ups. He's also cried out once or twice in the nights but settled himself. What do I do now? Xx
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 30, 2011, 07:23:12 am
Are you doing WIWO when he wakes up? How long is he sleeping for his naps?
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 30, 2011, 07:32:26 am
Hi I did wiwo but he was iterally screaming. I did it for only 20mins. He slept a total of 1.5hs yesterday, split into 2 naps though due to the early wake up. His first nap was 11am but he only slept for 30mins.he had another nap then 2 to 3pm and bedtime was 7:15pm. What would be best to do today as he's moaning already x
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 30, 2011, 07:46:16 am
((((hugs)))) I dunno, that's really hard. I think he's still overtired, because that's really not a lot of nap, and a 14 hr or more day. Plus the canines and plus the 18month sleep regression (which is a doozy). How come you decided not to do an early bedtime, was it because he had a second nap?

I'd probably keep him up til 10 and then hope and pray for a longer nap. He needs to be asleep in bed by 6 at the latest tonight, you could even do 5.30.

I know you know this but if you're doing WIWO, you need to keep up with it. Or do something else to keep him quiet in his bedroom (cuddles/whatever). I do think it's really important that he doesn't get to start his day and have breakfast until a reasonable hour.

More hugs to you though. I remember those days so well, I remember raging at CBeebies that they didn't start broadcasting til 6am! 6am??!? I had been up with a mardy toddler for two hours by then!
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 30, 2011, 07:47:14 am
Desperate times desperate measures and all, do you think he would have a longer nap if you laid down with him in your bed and you could both catch a couple of hours?
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: Sam-n-Max's Mommy on July 30, 2011, 10:53:21 am
(((Hugs))) kiansmam. I don't have any advice at this point, just hugs.  We really are having a similar experience over here. I think teething has really put my little guy into an OT spiral which is even affecting his days now (he has been really irritable).  I started a desperate thread yesterday because I'm at a loss.  I will say, however, that I have been trying to work with an earlier BT and moving the nap up and things have improved slightly over the past day or so.  My only hope is that this will be a gradual improvement that gets us back to good sleep and less crankiness in general.  I hope both of our LOs get back on track soon.  More (((hugs))) for you, I know how you feel! 
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 30, 2011, 12:17:38 pm
Thanks both I really appreciate it. I know I need to stick with wiwo longer but my neighbours don't understand and will moan at a drop of a hat if he crys. I have tried lying down with him to sleep but it makes him angry. Will have to go with the early bedtime tonight and see how it goes x
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: sianie on July 30, 2011, 12:46:01 pm
Sorry things are still rough!

Have you tried doing a meds dream feed for the teething? DS's canines are also coming through ATM & the DF is really helping!

Also agree about the earlier BT!
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 30, 2011, 14:36:31 pm
Just wanted to run through a checklist of things that might be waking him so we can rule them out...

Hunger?
Light (it is light so early in the mornings now)
Noise (dawn chorus? The birds can be really loud)
Pain (try Nurofen at 3am by syringe so as not to wake)
Discomfort (super-full/leaky nappy)
Habit (try wake to sleep)
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: nelliestar on July 30, 2011, 17:57:05 pm
Following along and sending hugs to you.xxxxxxxxx

Anna - i am looking at your check list for us too! Can you do W2S for a 2.5 year old or are they too old then? DH just said he thinks Bram is in the habit of waking at 5.50 rather than through pain. sorry to hijack the thread.

Nell xxxxx
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 30, 2011, 19:40:22 pm
TBH i think he's doing it through habit now rather than anything else. I've gone through the check list and i really don't think it's any of the others. What would be best to do to break the habit? x
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 30, 2011, 22:31:46 pm
Wake to sleep can definitely work if it's habitual. It is scary though for EWers, means going into their room about an hour before they habitually wake, and get them to stir (NOT wake up). The idea is to bring them out of deep sleep to start a new cycle, so that by the time their wake up time rolls around they are in a deep sleep again.

Nell, at 2.5 I would definitely consider using a Groclock or something similar. If you can explain to Bram that we sleep at night and wake in the daytime, he will be able to look at the clock and see if it's time to get up yet. We had terrible EWs for ages, totally resolved by the Groclock at 24 months old and still going strong.
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: sianie on July 31, 2011, 11:10:29 am
I agree with the Gro-clock suggestion, we have one for DD & it has really helped with understanding WU time etc.

I've not personally used W2S with either of my 2 LO's as toddlers but I know some Mum's have used it successfully but they do it earlier on in the night, so around midnight or so, when their LO is still in a deeper sleep. The risk to doing it later in the early hours is that they are in a lighter sleep & therefore are more likely to be fully woken & then won't go back to sleep.
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on July 31, 2011, 11:32:34 am
Just a quick update. He slept till 05:35 this morning but wanted a sleep at 10:15 and slept till 11:30 so he def needed it. What would you advise for the rest of the day? X
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: nelliestar on July 31, 2011, 11:45:48 am
Thanks anna and sianie - going Groclock shopping after i post this!

Kiansmam - hoping one of the others replies to you soon - I don't know what to advise and following along for help too!

Big hugs!

Nell xxxxx
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: anna* on July 31, 2011, 17:24:58 pm
Sorry Kian's mum have been out all day. What time was bedtime last night? How did the rest of the day go?
Title: Re: ow i give up
Post by: kiansmam on August 11, 2011, 18:40:18 pm
so sorry for the late reply, things have been really busy. Things are a little better with kian sleeping from 7/7:30pm till anytime between 5:30 and 6:30am. His wu times are really inconsistant. The only way i can see this being is that his nap times in nursery are 1.5hrs approx at 12:30, but at home he strugglers to get till 11am and on times will only sleep 45mins all day. Any ideas on what i can do? I have managed to stretch him till 12:30 on times but he still takes a short nap. thanks