BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Mackjack on September 02, 2011, 19:51:21 pm
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Hi again,
So, LO is 14 months. Good sleeper thanks to BW. Bed at 7.30, wakes at 6.30/7 at the very latest, naps at 11/12 for 2.5/3 hours at most.
She had a bug the other day which made her really sleepy annd she just wanted to sleep a lot during the day and lie-in in the morning. I let her as she was ill. But then the next couple of nights, she woke at night after 45mins - I gave her a quick cuddle and she went down again easily and slept through. The other day she seemed to be feeling much better so napped, but woke after 45mins and I had to cuddle her for a looong time to get her back to sleep and she slept for another 1.5hours (I woke her in the end). That night she would not go to bed til 10pm!! (but slept through). Yesterday she woke from her nap after an hour crying. I decided not to force her back to sleep and risk her having too much sleep again. She was fine and went to bed at around 7.30 - no NW but I had to wake her up at 7am this morn.
I put all this down to her having too much sleep while she was ill.
Today she's definitely over the bug. She slept 7.30 - 7 (I had to wake her) and was at granny's all day. Told granny to not let her nap more than 3 hours but granny mis-timed it and she did 3hrs 15mins. Tonight she went to bed easily at 7.40 but again woke after 45mins, quick cuddle and back to sleep.
My question is, is a habit forming here? Or is it because she's not had a completely normal day yet after being ill (i.e. went to bed late last night as she wasn't tired enough and today she napped 3hrs 15, so 15mins more than her usual maximum)? If it's a habit - I successfully used WTS months ago for early morning NW so would consider that but would it work when she's waking after only 45mins - I feel like it would just wake her up!!
I might try waking her at 6.30am in the morning to make sure she doesn't have too much night sleep and get her back on track.... Any thoughts??
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Hi there...
It could be that after being poorly & needing extra comfort from you that she has come to need/want the cuddling back to sleep. It could also be that's she's UT from the longer naps.
It can take a few days for LO's routine to get back on track after they've been ill & I've found that the key is to try to be consistent with nap times/ bed times etc as this seems to 're-set' their body clocks. W2S wouldn't work when she's waking after 45 mins, I think you 1st need to leave her to try to self-settle, listen to her & if she's mantra crying or just babbling then leave her...if her cries start to escalate & become more distressed then I would go in & put my hand on her (don't take her out of the cot) & use whatever sleepy phrase you have to let her know she needs to go back to sleep.
Is she teething at all?
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Hi,
Sorry for the delayed reply.
Thanks for your advice. I'm not sure if she's teething - don't think so but won't rule it out.
The night after I typed this , she went to bed at normal time and slept through until 7. She had a nap at 12 and I didn't want her to sleep too long so went into her just before the 3hour mark and she was already awake. That afternoon, she was really whingy as though she was still tired. So she went to bed at normal time, 7.30 and didn't wake at the 45min mark. But - she did wake just before 3am in the morning and didn't go back to sleep until about 4.20am. She wasn't crying just rolling about, messing around etc. (I did as you said and didn't cuddle - just sat in the dark putting my hand on her when needed. Couldn't leave the room as her cot is right by the door and she cried whenever I tried to leave).
My experience of her waking up for this long in the night is that she's UT and had too much sleep somewhere along the way. But I can't work out when she's had the too much sleep if you see what I mean. The night before she slept 7.30-7 which is the longest she'll usually sleep and then had an almost 3 hour nap which isn't unusual before.
So today I thought I'd try capping her nap at 2.5 hours. Other than that, I'm at a bit of a loss!!
Oh and this morning she's being whingy again and a bit destructive, throwing things around like she doesn't know what to do with herself.....
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Oh and this morning she's being whingy again and a bit destructive, throwing things around like she doesn't know what to do with herself.....
You know that does sound a little like teething behaviour to me....has she had her 1st yr molars through yet? It's around this age that they start coming through & can cause some sleep issues.
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Actually, it does sound like teething, doesn't it?! Sometimes these things are so obvious but I clearly miss them!!! She's only got 5 teeth (two top, three bottom) so she could be getting some more front ones - do these all come through before the molars or can they come in any order?
Yesterday I woke her from her nap after 2.5 hours. She was a bit whingy in the afternoon but not the whole time. Went to bed at 7.30 and woke up today at 6.50.
I have noticed in the past that teething sometimes makes her a little tired (anyone else notice that?). So maybe she is teething and that's caused her to sleep a little longer at night - only 20/30 mins - and on top of that regularly have long naps of 3hours and all those little extra 20/30mins are adding up and causing her to be a little less tired at night...?
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I have noticed in the past that teething sometimes makes her a little tired (anyone else notice that?)
Yes, teething can make LO's more tired & also more likely to get OT. Usually 1st year molars come through after the front teeth, then canines (both are tough for LO's to teethe).
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Her problem seems to have been getting more tired than usual and then later getting UT! I am looking out for teeth. Seems much happier this morning though (touch wood!).
Thanks for your help. I'll see how the next few days go - I could be back for more advice!
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Back again! Sorry, I feel like I post all the time!! Problem this time is 45 min naps. She's sleeping at night but the past three days has had a 30 min nap one day and then 45 min naps the next two (she only has one nap a day, usually at least 2.5 hours). She wakes up whinging/crying. I leave her for a while then go in and put my hand on her but she just seems to roll about as though she's struggling to go back to sleep. Ultimately, she becomes so awake that she stops being upset and is playful.
She seems ok during the day - a little clingy, wanting to be picked up. But even though she's only having super-short naps she still seems lively and active in the afternoons. Also, she had a slight cold a couple of days ago.
Teething again do we think?? I think it was teething last time but there aren't any teeth to show for it!!
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Teething again do we think??
Possibly.....what you describe could be teething. Have you been doing really early BT's after such short naps?
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...no, I've been a bit stupid here. Sounds like OT doesn't it? She's been really lively after her short naps so I've still been putting her to bed at 7.30 but clearly I should've been putting her down much earlier. Yesterday she was exhausted in the morning and fell asleep in the car at 10.30am - I carried her in the house and changed her nappy and she didn't wake at all. So I just put her down for her nap at 10.45 which is really early for her. She still only did 45mins.
Because I've not been putting her to bed earlier to help her catch up, it's obviously just escalated. OT only occured to me last night so I put her to bed as early as possible (6.50pm) but I reckon she would've gone down earlier.
I must admit, a few days before this started happening, we had a few nights where she went to bed a little later than normal (only about 15/20mins) but I'm thinking these slightly late nights might have all added up...
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but I'm thinking these slightly late nights might have all added up...
more than likely....OT can build up so I would stick to the early BT's to help her catch-up on her sleep & stop the OT getting any worse.
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Ok, one more question and I'm hoping it's not another stupid one...
As I said, the other night I finally realised OT was the problem and I put her to bed earlier (6.50pm - normal is 7.30). She slept fine but I could hear her restlessly shuffling/banging about from about 4.50am until she finally got up at 6.10am. The following day - i.e. yesterday - I put her down for her nap slightly earlier (11.30) and she slept 2hrs 45 as she normally would. Great. So yesterday she woke from her nap at 2.15pm. I thought to be on the safe side and make sure she properly catches up with her sleep, I'd put her to bed slightly earlier last night as well - 7.10pm - she normally goes down at 7.30. But last night from about 2am I could hear her banging about and then shouting out in an excited voice. She did it a few times until she got up at 6.10am. Each time only lasted a few minutes and she went back to sleep.
I've never had NW like this before. Normally I've had UT NWs whereby she's started whinging/crying and has then been up for 1hr 30. But what's this one about? Do you think I got carried away with helping her catch up on sleep and put her to bed just a touch too early?
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They do sound more like UT than OT NW's to me so if you feel that she has caught up a bit on the OT then try pushing her BT back towards her normal time.
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Thanks, Sianie. So I probably should've just put her to bed at 7.30, normal time, last night. I'm a bit confused now though because today after the NWs last night and waking at 6.10am, I put her down for her nap at 11.45. She's just woken at 1.15 so a 1hr 30 nap. I don't know whether to put her to bed early or normal time tonight now??
If it helps, to remind you, her routine before all this happened was:
Wake 6.30/40
Nap 12pm - for 2.5/3hours
Bed 7.30pm
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I would aim to have her asleep by 7pm...earlier if she seems tired. There's such a fine line between UT & OT, it could be she got into a bit of an OT/UT loop.
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UT/OT loop definitely makes sense! I'll do as you suggest - aim for 7pm or earlier (hard to tell when she's tired these days though!) Thanks so much - I'll report back!
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Ok, so, I put her to bed at 7pm that night, as you recommended. She slept soundly til 6am. Then she napped from 11.50am-1.35 so 1hr 45. BT that night was 7.15pm. This morning she woke at 5.55am and napped 11.50am-1.40 so 1hr 50.
She's waking up happy enough and seems happy all day but these 1hr45ish naps don't seem long enough to me when just a week or so ago she was having 2.5-3hours and I'm worried that in a few days some OT could build up. I'm not sure what to do tonight - put her to bed early??
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Do you think the naps could be OT or UT unless there's any teething going on?
I would maybe aim for BT around 6.30pm.
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I don't think teething's going on (but who knows!).
I'm inclined to say OT. I tried to get her to bed early tonight but she fell asleep in the car for less than 10mins on the way home from granny's and this gave her a bit of a boost. So when I tried to put her to bed, she was worked up and was bouncing around and shouting when I left the room. So I had a bit of a panic where I couldn't decide if she was OT or UT (though falling asleep in the car was a big OT clue!!) so got her up for a bit to calm her down. She ended up going to bed at 7.20. I reckon she's going to have an OT night and wake early tomorrow - around 6am. If so, and the nap is around 1hr 45 again, I will definitely aim for an early bedtime tomorrow night.
Sorry, feel like I'm asking really stupid questions!! Sometimes just typing on this board is a big help as it helps me think things through and often, realise the obvious!! Thank you!
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Even short car naps can give them enough of a boost to male BT later ::)! So it could be she was OT then UT by BT.
If you get lots of NW's etc tonight then it could be you try for a nap a little earlier to curb the OT. FX for a good night!
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Just a quick update - we seen to be getting back on track. You were right, I think, it was an OT/UT loop. The past couple of days she's gone back to sleepign 7pmish to 6amish with a 2hr45 nap in the day. So I'm going to see how we go and continue to adjust bed and nap times as necessary.
Thank you, again!
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Great news! ;D
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Sigh..I'm back again...thought I had this sorted but I just can't work her out at the moment.
As I said in my last post, after what seemed to be an OT/UT loop I got her back to sleeping 7pm-6am (which is a bit of an earlier wake up than I'd like but hey-ho) and having a nap of around 2.5/3hours.
But just a day later and she started having short naps again. So she's going to bed at 7pm, waking about 6 and having a nap at about 11.30/12 for only 1hour 40. Sometimes she wakes happy from the nap, other times she wakes a bit miserable but is fine once she's up.
The other day, she roused about 5.50am and got up at 6.10, I got her down for a nap at 11.45 for 2 hours until 1.45 - she woke a little miserable. I tried to put her to bed a little earlier - 6.40pm - but she wouldn't have it but I got her down easily at 7pm. The next day, her gran had trouble getting her to nap and got her down at 12.15 and she slept for just 1hr 40 again.
1hr40 naps - what do they mean? Surely they're not quite long enough for a one nap day? Or do I just have to accept that that's her nap lengthe now? I've tried putting her to bed early , putting her down for naps early etc but nothing seems to be consistently getting her to nap longer and wake later in the am. I don't think there's any teething happening.
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1hr 40 naps can be UT or OT depending on what's gone on before. Anymore teeth coming through?
Do you want to post your current routine?
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Sure. At the moment, it's
BT - 7pm
Wake - 6am
Nap - 12 ish (can be anytime from 11.30-12.30)
Actually though, yesterday her gran had a really hard time getting her down to nap and only got her down at 1.30 and she slept just an hour. So last night, I put her to bed at 6.35pm, she woke at 6am and then I put her down for her nap at 11.15 and had to wake her after 2hr55 (2.10pm) - hooray! I put her to bed at 7.15 tonight.
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I wonder if she's OT & the not settling at nap time is because her sleep window has been missed & she's got her 2nd wind by this time. If she's napping at around 12pm after a 6am WU that's a long A-time for her age (6hrs). From what you've said it's interesting that an earlier nap meant she slept for longer which indicates that later naps are making her OT. 5hrs A-time is probably around the most that LO's can handle at this age......
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Yes, I'm finding it really hard to read her nowadays so whenever she fights a nap or BT I assume she's UT and let her stay up a little longer but actually, she's probably OT as you say. Yesterday, she was up at 5.50am - I tried to put her down for her nap at 11.15 and she stood up in her cot, was shouting and banging so I went back in to get her and she was laying there kicking her cot. I got her up for a little while and when I put her down again she did the same again, only this time I left her and she eventually went to sleep at 11.45 for 2 hours. I should've just left her to it the first time around but I just find it so hard to judge if her behaviour is OT or UT.
Do you think I should try to go by the 5 hours A time and use that as a guide as to when to put her down? Before all this happened, she was having about 5/5.5 hrs A time in the morning and then sometimes as little as 4.5hrs before bed and sleeping just over 11hrs at night.
The other thing is, it seems to be no matter what time she goes to bed (as I'm adjusting BT according to when and how long she naps) she's waking around 5.50am which is just a little too early. Do you think WTS might help here? Or is this just something I've just got to put up with for now?
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Before all this happened, she was having about 5/5.5 hrs A time in the morning and then sometimes as little as 4.5hrs before bed and sleeping just over 11hrs at night.
I'd give this a go to see if you can get things back on track. I've always done set nap & BT's with my LO's as this 'set's their bodyclocks & generally gives us more predictable days, so you could try for a nap at say 11.30am for example.
It depends on what's causing the earlier waking as to whether it is a phase that will pass....some LO's are naturally earlier wakers; other earlier wakings can be caused by teething or the need for a routine tweak....as always it's a case of trial & error to try to get to the bottom of what's going on.
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When you say you've always had set nap times, do you mean you put your LOs down after the same amount of A time each day or that you put them down at the same actual time each day?
Today she was awake at about 5.45am then went quiet til about 6.10 (not sure she was asleep though). Put her down for her nap at 11.30 as you suggested (she cried a little bit but settled really quickly). She slept til 1.45pm (so 2hrs 15). So I tried to do BTat 6.45 (5 hrs A time, I know you said to aim for 4.5 but didn't quite make it!). She cried when I left the room and kept crying until it escalated and I had to go in. I kept the light off and put my hand on her back and she just kept wriggling around for ages until she eventually started playing. So I assumed she was UT and got her up for just 10mins and all of a sudden she seemed really OT and went down at 7.25. Again she cried but just for a couple of mins.
So, do you think that the first time I tried maybe she'd already been OT but then got a second wind so started acting UT?? I've been keeping a sleep log and I just can't work out the perfect A time in the afternoon especially as she keeps napping for different lengths. Do you think maybe tomorrow night, I should try giving her 4.5hrs and if she doesn't go down, give her another 10mins, try again and if that doesn't work, I'll definitely know she's UT (as usually a second attempt always works)?
God, I feel guilty saying it but I'm finding it really tough constantly over-analysing her BT, A time, nap time, UTness, OT ness..... Usually I manage to solve any sleep hiccups within a week or so (with this website's help!) but this one just seems to keep going....
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A-times can be difficult to work out.....some LO's prefer a longer AM A-time then shorter PM A-time or vice versa etc.....what do you think works best for your DD?
My 'set' times are a set time of day that they nap & go to bed (regardless of WU), I've found that this helps to set their biorythm so that they are naturally tired at these times. It definitely makes our days more consistent & takes the guess work out of constantly trying to figure out A-times.
It could have been that she was a little UT after the long nap (although at least you know that a nap around 11.30am does give you a good long nap so it sounds like it's figuring out the best BT...I would maybe try for around 5hrs A-time after a 2hr or longer nap).
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Set times sound a good idea. I've got to get her back to some kind of normality before I do that though!
So today after going to bed at 7.25 last night (after a battle) she woke at 6am. She was with her gran and she tried from 11.20am but couldn't get her down to sleep at all. She took her out in the pram in the end and she slept for 30mins. Then when she got her home, she managed to get her to nap again from 1.30-2.30 and she woke v miserable. BT was a struggle. Gran tried from 6.25pm until I got home and finally got her down at 7.05.
She's just fighting sleep all the time. Either laying there crying or playing around. Throughout all this she has been sleeping through the night which is the only positive. DOn't know what I'll do if she starts NW too.
I'm at a total loss. I think this is an OT nightmare but I can't seem to break it as she's fighting sleep so much. There have been just a couple of times during this period when she's had her normal 2hr45 nap but I can't see any pattern as to how that happened. I am right in thinking that at 15months she should still be having 2-3 hour naps, aren't I?? I'm not striving for something unachievable??
The only one slight thing I've noticed is that she is seeming a little tired sometimes in the morning around 9/10ish. I thought maybe I should try to get her to have a little nap then BUT if she fights that I'm going to be questioning myself as to whether she really wants to sleep and whether I should force her to or not. And I wouldn't know how long to let her sleep or when to let her nap again later in the day.
This has been going on 3 weeks now. I'm so sorry to keep asking for help, you are giving me great advice but I just can't seem to break this and it's getting me down. Especially as I'm back at work now so keep getting phone calls from her gran or dad saying 'help, she won't nap'!!!
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{{Hugs}} it will get better! It's just a case of trying to work through all the possible reasons for her resisting sleep which are usually UT/OT/pain or discomfort/teething.
Is her Gran doing a similar wind-down etc to you at nap time?
I would stick with the 11.30am nap time, start wind-down at around 11am so that she is as calm as possible by the time she goes down or you could try an earlier nap time of 11am if you feel she's really tired to see if this makes a difference.
Yes, the average nap length at 14mths is around 2hrs or so, but of course some do sleep less.
Remind me, where is she at with any teeth coming through?
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Thank you. It's nice to have a sympathetic ear.
Yes gran is very good at doing exactly the same routine, wind down etc as me!
Teeth-she only has two top ones and three bottom. They are all at the front.
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I do wonder whether it could be her 1st yr molars starting to come through.....might be worth trying to take a peek if you can!
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I kind of hope you are right just because I need an explanation!! Can molars commonly cause problems for three weeks?? She doesn't seem in pain- should I be giving her meds? And if it is teeth do you suggest the same tactics as you just said ie, nap at 11am?
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Molars can take a few weeks to come through as they are blunt teeth & take longer to get through the gum, because of this they tend to bother LO's more than some other teeth. Don't forget that teething is also worse when LO's are lying down.....teething also tends to make LO's more tired.
If it is molars then it's really a case of riding it out the best you can, give meds before sleeps & maybe stick to an earlier nap time to stop OT building up. Give an 11am nap time a go for a few days to see if it helps!
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After bt at 7.05 she woke this morning at 6.15. We put her down for a nap at 11. She played for quite a while then started crying. I eventually went in and she was exhausted. Put my hand on her back and she went off in mins. She slept about 2hrs45!!hooray! Woke just after 2pm. When do you think I should do bt?
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That's a good nap! I would probably aim for BT by 7.30pm.
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Did bt at 7.30and she slept til 6.40-great. Nap at 11.45-she still messed about and played and whined a bit but slept 2hrs20. Put her to bed at 7.30. So hopefully e are getting back on track. I think you might be right about molars.i can't see anything but she does still seem tired during the day for no reason.
Thank you so much for your advice-hopefully I won't need anymore for a while but I will see how we go!!
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That sounds better! :)
Molars are tough as they move around a lot in the gums on & off before you can see anything.
Good luck & keep me posted!