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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: clairebear79 on September 29, 2011, 20:54:31 pm
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We went cold turkey to 1 nap almost 2 weeks ago with my 13month old DS. We tried the following routine: wake: 6am (ish), set nap: 11am, BT: 6.30pm ish.
Prior to this we were doing a 30min nap at 10am(ish) & attempting to do a 1.5hr nap at 1.30pm(ish), but he kept resisting the PM nap & would often not fall asleep until 2-2.30pm, meaning not enough A time to BT. His WU started to creep earlier & so we tried to make the jump to 1 nap.
The first couple of days he did 2hr+ naps, then OT struck. We stuck with it in the hopes that his bodyclock would kick in to wanting the set nap at 11am & then his naps would lengthen. Sadly, things got even more wonky - he was waking repeatedly through the nap & then at night, then his WU got earlier & his nap cut back to 30/45mins. Despite APing a C/N at tea time & doing EBT we couldn't keep the OT at bay & after 12 days we got a 4.55am WU. :o :o :o
I came to the conclusion he may not be ready for 1 nap as not only was he very OT, he was very miserable, crying all the time, constantly looks tired & has huge bags, so in the last few days, we reverted back to 2 naps to help him get over his OT. HOWEVER after just 2 days of catch-up, today we got nap resistance YET AGAIN. ::) The last few days went like this:
Wed:
Wake: 4.55am (after just 10h 15 night sleep - due to being exhausted from 1 nap days)
Nap: 9.00 - 9.45 (held him out til 9am earliest as he is a former chronic EWer. Woke him after 45mins to ensure we get PM nap)
Nap: 1.25 - 3.10 (he was actually a bit OT for this nap - woke a couple of times. Woke himself after 1h 45)
BT: 6.45pm (he was crying for bed at 6.15pm despite the nice long nap today, as still OT)
Thu:
Wake: 5.10am (10h 25 night sleep. Several WU's in early part of evening due to OT.)
Nap: 9.10 - 9.55 (Pushed nap out 10mins so as not to encourage EW. Woke him after 45mins.)
Nap: 1.20 - 3.00 (PD a little earlier than yesterday. He settled well & slept a solid nap of 1h 40)
BT: 6.45pm (slightly early to keep a lid on OT arising from long day)
Fri (today):
Wake: 6.10am (11h 25 sleep. BUT woke repeatedly every 20mins from 3.50am onwards, crying for a minute then back to sleep)
Nap: 10.10 - 10.40 (at MIL's house. Cut nap to 30mins so as to encourage earlier PM nap so he has enough A time to BT)
Nap: 2.50 - 3.50 (fought being PD for his PM nap for almost 1.5hrs with full on screaming like I've never heard. We aimed for 3hrs A after a 30min nap & he was having none of it. After 40mins in bed we got him back up & tried again a while later. Took 3 attempts before he would settle. We woke him after just 1hr to preserve BT)
BT: 7.00pm
I really don't know where to go from here :'( :'( & am in desperate need of some help/guidance.
He is a 'Touchy/Spirited' combo & I believe they thrive on routine, however I am really struggling with this. He has NEVER really been in what you would call a good or consistent routine. Not for lack of trying, but his days are always so different that it is almost impossible to stick with a set A time OR a set nap time. B/c one day he will sleep 11hrs overnight & manage a nice long 1st A time & do a great nap, then the next day he wakes up an hour earlier, then can't handle the same A time b/c he is not so well rested. Same goes for set naps - works great for a couple of days then an earlier or later WU throws us for an absolute loop b/c he is either majorly OT by nap time, or seriously UT. I am just really struggling to find the right A times for him. To add to this, he rarely shows tired signs, yet he looks tired ALL THE TIME which makes me worry he is in fact chronically OT.
We have tried long AM/short PM with limited success b/c DS will just refuse his PM nap & I am unable to AP a CN in the car every day b/c of work commitments. Short AM/long PM nap has so far worked most successfully for us, however with the PM nap resistance today, we find ourselves back in the same position, wondering how to get him to take 2 naps or whether he does need to be on 1 nap after all. AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH???
- Is it really feasible that he wasn't tired enough to go down 3 or even 4hrs after a 30min nap (when he has already done 4hrs A time before it)???
- could he just be chronically OT & this is why he is fighting the PM nap, rather than b/c he is UT ??? Maybe I am putting him down for his AM nap too late & so he is already OT when I try to put him down for his PM nap ???
My gut feeling is that rather than jumping straight to 1 nap (which ends in disaster every time I try :P) I either need to:
a) find the 'right' A time after a 30min nap so he goes down readily (any ideas anyone ???), OR
b) cut the AM nap back even further to say 15mins, to bring the PM nap even earlier & stop him from resisting it (what A time to do after a 15min nap though ???)
If anyone has any suggestions/advice I'd very much appreciate your thoughts.xx
p.s.Sorry for the long post & all the questions, I'm a bit lost right now :-[
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Anyone?
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Despite APing a C/N at tea time & doing EBT we couldn't keep the OT at bay & after 12 days we got a 4.55am WU.
Based on this and this:
I came to the conclusion he may not be ready for 1 nap as not only was he very OT, he was very miserable, crying all the time, constantly looks tired & has huge bags, so in the last few days, we reverted back to 2 naps to help him get over his OT. HOWEVER after just 2 days of catch-up, today we got nap resistance YET AGAIN.
I would have stuck to 1 nap for a while longer APing a CN every 3/4 days. during those 12 days was it just one nap the whole time? It took us a good 3-4 weeks to settle totally into one nap. What did you do to extend the naps when he started to waken early?
I think given that you are getting PM nap resistance after 2 days of 2 naps it may not work long time. What A time does he do in the morning before his nap normally?
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Hi Claire perhaps you need to persevere with one nap, late morning, and early bedtime for a week and see where it gets you? Aim for 5/5.5 hours a time either side?
X
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Posted with Charli and agree with her too xx
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Hi ladies thanks for the replies.
Shiv/Charli - yes - during the 12 days it was just 1 nap the whole time. The only time I resorted to a CN was a couple of days where he slept 30-45mins for his nap & he just zonked out when we went out in the car in the afternoon
WRT extending naps, it is impossible in our house. If he wakes mid-nap I leave him to self-settle, which he usually does. If he doesn't, then that is nap over. If I go in the room there is absolutely NO WAY he will resettle. He is also really difficult to AP naps with - the only way is in the car & that isn't even guaranteed. To add to this, he now spends 1 day at nursery & 2 days at MIL's & so there is no option to AP naps on those days to keep ontop of his OT.
He is so, so much happier since going back onto 2 naps too, but I agree its not looking good that we are getting PM nap resistance already. Do you think its not even worth trying the very short AM C/N ??? Before trying 1 nap we were doing a set nap at 10am, so his A time would vary depending on WU, but it was generally around 6am so roughly 4hrs A.
With the 1 nap routine we tried 11am nap to start with (5hrs A) but obviously as his WU got earlier this made his A time increase to 5.5hrs+ & I think this is what put the final nail in the coffin. The last 2 days of 1 nap he slept a 2hr & 2hr 40 nap, but then was crying with tiredness by 5pm & then of course we got the EW. I actually think 5hrs A time is too much for him & 4.75hrs is more what he can handle.
If we end up back on 1 nap:
Would we be better sticking with a set A time in the AM rather than a set nap time in order to keep OT at bay? Is this going to work with a LO who can be very inconsistent with his WU times as won't it mean that his naps & BT will vary greatly from day to day?
If the same EW situation were to arise again (I suspect it might :-\), are you saying we would need to hold with the nap at 11am regardless of how OT he is or whether he is crying with tiredness, and even though that would be 6hrs A time after a short night ???
My biggest worry is how on earth to keep OT at bay if I can't AP him to extend his naps ??? He is such a tricky baby & the prospect of very EBT doesn't really appeal as he has been a chronic EWer for many months & putting him to bed early generally just leads to him waking early. Not an exciting thought when DST change is fast approaching. :-\ How early would I actually need to do BT ??? Is 6.30pm too late ???
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WRT extending naps, it is impossible in our house. If he wakes mid-nap I leave him to self-settle,
I wouldn't. I would go straight in when you hear him stir and resettle him to sleep. I had to do that with M. if she woke too much she wasn't going back to sleep ever. Get him if he stirs and give it a good 20-30 minutes before giving up. Its the only way I found to get them to extend and manage the one nap well. You can gently say your sleepy phrase and say 'its still sleep time, back to sleep' if you need to. There will be OT and OT wakings in the nap so you have to be prepared to resettle. Would that work? And I mean as soon as he stirs.
Do you think its not even worth trying the very short AM C/N Before trying 1 nap we were doing a set nap at 10am, so his A time would vary depending on WU, but it was generally around 6am so roughly 4hrs A.
I wouldn't as i would feel really really mean waking my LO after 15 minutes and the aftermath would not be pretty.
If the same EW situation were to arise again (I suspect it might ), are you saying we would need to hold with the nap at 11am regardless of how OT he is or whether he is crying with tiredness, and even though that would be 6hrs A time after a short night
I always stuck to set nap give or take 15 minutes and set bedtime. So yes I would maybe do the nap 15 minutes early otherwise you end up in a cycle of then needing an early bedtime then you get an earlier wake up so earlier nap and on it goes.
Although thinking of what you have written if he only managing 4.75 A time I really dont' think one nap is feasible TBH. Given that he generally does an 11.5 hour night you will need a 3 hour nap every day at the least to make up the 24 hour day and i think that could unrealistic longterm.
Maybe you do need to go back to 2 naps and try the very short nap and make your goal getting him able to manage 5.15-5.5 A time consistently before you make the shift to one nap?
Sorry Claire, not much help but really until LOs can manage at least 5/5.5 hours A time without issue one nap will be really tough.
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Just seen he's still only 13mo, had it in my head he was older! Ok so is a morning car-nap possible on days you/grandma have him? Say:
A 6am
S 9-9.20 in car
S 12.45/1...not sure for how long?
And although set times can work, I'm thinking that could be really tricky for you/him given he's not in the same situ everyday? So maybe he needs alternte 2/1 naps, with you working hard to extend that one nap on days you have him?
Sorry if I'm not making a huge amount of sense, tired :P
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Hi Claire, Hi Ladies,
Having followed Oliver and Claire, by way of a friendship formed through BW'ing site, I pretty much know all there is to know about Oliver and what he will and won't do.
I have suggested to Claire that maybe she should go for the 1 nap again, with a 2 nap catch up day when Oliver isn't coping, maybe every 5 days or so ??? He does well for a few days then the problems arise but on 2 naps there is no consistency so I thought this may be a temporary solution untill he is completely ready.
Do you think this may work ??? We also considered alternating 2 naps an 1 nap days but that is trickier as Oliver is with other carers for 3 days.
A cat nap later in the day is also something we've tried, but Oliver doesn't always take it, so it's unreliable as a solution.
(X)
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That had been my original suggestion. CN every 3/4 days to keep on top of OT and then a later bedtime on those days. But I worry about his A times. He needs to beable to manage at least 5 hours really well.
Were you doing a set bedtime on one nap Claire?
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Yep, I think that makes sense, like I said with C attempting the 1 nap on days he's home with her xx
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Vicki - hiya - I PM'd you. ;)
Shiv - our normal BT is 7pm but when doing 1 nap days we did EBT at 6.30pm. We have suffered many months of EW & Oliver doesn't often tack on lost sleep to his night, so we are reluctant to bring BT much earlier as his WU will generally just get earlier. However, I realise that pushing him at both ends of the day will just compound the OT problem so maybe its something we just have to suffer short-term.
WRT his A times - I find any more than 4.75hrs in the AM leads to a broken nap with repeated WU's. But if he did a decent 2hr+ nap, he would definitely manage longer than 4.75hrs in the PM, maybe more like 5.25ish. So if we could get a 2-2.5hr nap each day then a 1 nap day would be just about feasible right?
Just thinking out loud as to whether it may be possible to just go for it. I feel that he may still need the tiny CN in the AM, but then that will never give us the opportunity to extend his A times to 5hrs+ will it? So maybe I would be better starting off with 4.75hrs A time, & AP'ing a CN as & when needed, or do EBT as you all suggest.
I am still a little worried about the current EW situation though. He was up at 5.30am again today so we have had to do 2 naps. I am hoping I can get the timing right for that PM nap & get a decent nap to push his WU later tomorrow - I truly think today's EW was due to OT from only 1.5hrs sleep yesterday. If his EW's continue though, how on earth do we get through a 1 nap day ??? i.e.:
wake: 5.30am
A = 4.75hrs
S = 10.15 - ??? maybe 12.30 (wishful thinking!)
A = 5.5hrs - this is just guesswork!
S = 6pm - is this the sort of BT we'd need to do? And wouldn't that just encourage him to wake even earlier the next day ???
WRT dropping in a 2 nap day as & when needed - he is at nursery 1 day/week & 2 naps is just impossible there. If they PD for an AM nap (even only 30mins) he will outright refuse to sleep. They tried to AP him (rocking/cuddling/pushchair) & he wouldn't go down for the rest of the day. So we have already agreed with them that he will just have 1 nap at nursery, & last week he did sleep for 2hrs there so we have some progress with that. So the 2 nap days may need to be done when he is with me, as no-one else can spot his tired signs (and I struggle too ::))
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or do EBT as you all suggest.
I actually don't agree with that. I think you do a set bedtime give or take 10/15 minutes. With your LO not tacking on at night I see no point in an EBT. I actually think it is counter productive to what you are trying to do.
On a day like today when you got an EW I would have done normal A time to nap then APed a CN to get you to a proper normal bedtime.
If you set the nap at 11am (so presuming a 6am wake up and 5 hours A time) would he just having OT wakings through the nap?
Do you think there is learned tiredness in the am? I'd have thought if he can manage 5-5.5 hours A time after a 2 hour nap he should be able to easily manage that after a good nights sleep?
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With your LO not tacking on at night I see no point in an EBT. I actually think it is counter productive to what you are trying to do.
This is why we tried to keep to 6.30pm earliest at our last attempt at 1 nap. B/c EBT can just mean EW for us. He will only tack on at night when he is really really exhausted. Say if he only slept 1hr or less during the day.
WRT setting the nap at 11am, this is what we did already & yes he had OT wakings throughout the nap.
I don't think learned tiredness is an issue in the AM, simply b/c we have never had a consistent routine going. :-[ His naps always vary greatly from day to day, so he never gets tired at a specific time of day. I think I have confused his bodyclock & it never knows what is coming. :-[ WRT him managing 5.5hrs after a good night's sleep - yes if we did a 1 nap day as a one-off he would manage it ok, but once he is doing it every day after just a few days he is severely OT & his naps & nights both shorten. After 11.5hrs+ he would manage a 5.5hr A, but when he sleeps 11hrs or less then its a real struggle for him. :-\
Today has gone:
Wake: 5.30
Nap: 9.30-10 (held him out til 9.30 (4hr A) but TBH he'd have gone down earlier. we woke him from nap)
Nap: 1.30-3 (PD at 1.05 as he was shaking his head. He went quiet at 1.15 & 5mins later woke coughing. Took another 10mins to resettle. We woke him from the nap. This was a good solid nap with no mid nap WU's.)
BT: 7.00 (that's the plan anyway. This still makes for a 13.5hr day, so I am worried we will just get another 10.5hr night - it seems the longer his day, the shorter his night IYSWIM)
When he EW's, I keep holding him out for 4hrs before his AM nap b/c I am scared to let it fall too early in the day, as I know in the past this has been a big problem for us & just reinforced his EW. But then I am keeping him up a LONG time before a short nap - so could this in fact just be causing him to be OT even before his PM nap, hence why we are getting nap resistance ??? He woke up happy from his nap, but just 2 hrs later was already shaking his head (a tired sign for him). Surely he has to be getting OT from somewhere as he shouldn't really be tired 2hrs after a 1.5hr nap should he? So do I in fact need to try getting him down earlier for his AM nap, rather than pushing him to 4hrs A?
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Hi there how you getting on? With my DD2 even now (at 15.5m) a 4 hour A time in the morning can be too long, especially if you've got NWs/EWs/short nights at play too. I do think you could try that nap earlier, say 3.5 hours after WU, still cap at 30 mins, then next nap approx 3-3.5 hours later, what do you think? It's tricky because I know what you mean about messing with his body clock but he's still so young you need to read cues too. ((hugs)) xx
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Hiya - We're in a bit of a mess really! Yesterday we stuck with the same nap times as the day before & it went ok but EW again today ::)
Wake: 6.20 (great 11h 20 sleep, BUT he started stirring at 4.50am & was waking every 15mins crying out then resettling til 6.20am)
Nap: 9.30 - 10.00 (even though this is a shorter A I decided to risk it as he looked tired. He settled easily)
Nap: 1.30 - 3.00 (TBH I think I maybe should have PD earlier as he was showing some tired signs at 12 midday. Good solid nap though - we had to wake him at 3)
BT: 7.20 (PD at 6.50 but took him a long time to settle. Coughing a lot so may be down to this - or OT/UT???)
Today:
Wake: 5.10am (only 9h 50 sleep - why oh why ???)
Nap: 11.15 - 2.00 (2h 45 nap at nursery)
BT: 7.00pm
I really can't fathom what is going on here. Its not like he's getting too much day sleep. The EW has only started since we went cold turkey to 1 nap & he got OT. So my gut tells me its OT that is the culprit here, but I am struggling to get him caught back up & out of the EW cycle.
Today he went to nursery. I asked them to PD when he was ready, & if it was before 10am then they were to do 2 naps, if it was after they were to just let him sleep as this would already be 5hrs A. They didn't PD til 11.15 & so he slept 2h 45mins. :o :o :o
So yes he did a great nap, BUT only b/c the A before it was so huge. This left us with a predicament about BT, b/c he needed enough A time after that huge nap to make sure he wasn't UT at BT, BUT he had already done a huge 6h 5min A time in the AM, so a long A to BT could potentially make him OT. B/c I don't know what his A times are/need to be I am clutching at straws here - its a total guessing game. :-\ He seemed quite happy, so we went for 6.45pm BT, he was asleep at 7pm.
I am a little scared he will wake early again tomorrow through OT, but am also scared he will wake early b/c he had too much day sleep today. He averages around 13.5hrs sleep in 24, & he's already had 2h 45 today, so that only leaves 10h 15 for tonight IYSWIM ??? So if we get EW again tomorrow, where the hell do I go from here? Doing 6hrs A time before his nap every day just isn't sustainable. So do I cut it right back to say 4.5 or 4.75 & let him sleep & then try for a CN in the PM to get to our normal BT?
It seems silly to persevere with the 2 naps now if he's just going to carry on EW. I really thought it would help but so far it hasn't. Or is it just that I need to spend a good few days cutting back his A times in order to help him get caught up again??? It worries me that bringing his AM nap earlier will just keep the EW continuing though - its a vicious trap to fall into & I have been there before & shifting his nap to 10am was what we had to do last time to stop him from EW. :-\
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Hi hun, I know this isn't what you want to hear but maybe you need to roll with these EWs for a while :-\ He is (currently) doing GREAT naps, and good nights apart from EWs. I know you had a 9.5 hour night but that isn't the norm is it? I fear you'll just confuse him more and more if you keep trying to tweak...
Sorry that's not overly helpful :-\ I'll see if I can get more eyes on this xx
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Hi Claire...mind if I pop in and offer my two cents? ;)
The reason all of this is going on is because he is in the middle of a transition. This isn't how it's going to be forever; it's an ebb and flow: 2 steps forward, one step back until finally, finally he's able to handle the A time that a one-nap routine requires. His sleep needs are shifting, but his A times aren't ready yet. It is completely normal for what's happening to happen. It's normal for nighttime sleep to drop a little bit as they have more daytime sleep. I would be very hesistant to say that a 9.5h night--during this transition with two naps--is an OT night. He's waking earlier in the AM because he's getting too much daytime sleep spread out between TWO naps, not because he's necessarily getting too much daytime sleep, total-wise. Does that make sense?
I think what you need to do is keep his A times where he needs them. I know you're trying to figure it out still, but I wouldn't keep making his A times shorter. That will only prolong this.
I think your options are these:
1) Alternate one-nap and two-nap days. For example, he wakes up early on, say, Monday at 6am. That's a 2 nap day, which preseves a decent bedtime. He might still have a shorter night just because he got 2 naps that day, but an early bedtime does NOT work if LO is not a night sleep tacker-oner (how's that for a made up phrase? ;)). That's exactly how my DS was, so our days got a bit long there towards the end, but it was the only way we could get through the 2-1 until his A times were closer to 5h.
So, he does a 2 nap day. Then the next day, say he sleeps until his regular wake up time of 7. That's a one nap day. The next day might be another early day...so a 2 nap day. And so and so on.
2) Like Shiv suggested on Page 1, you can keep the set one nap and APOP a catnap every few days to keep the OT from building up too much.
Unfortunately, we can't force their little bodies to do certain A times...though, some can handle a bit of a push to a point; but eventually, too much is too much and we just have to wait for them to be ready to finish the transition. It sounds like your DS is able to handle longer A times (like the day he was put down at nursery at 11:15 and slept almost 3h), but just not every day. That's a good thing!! He's getting closer to being ready for 1 nap.
What really helped me--and granted, hindsight always helps--is to view the 2-1 truly as a progression and not so much a cut-and-dry deal. DS did do okay once he got to the 1 nap and 5h A times on each side; but the consolidation/convergence of the 2 naps leading up to that point was hard.
I hope that helps you a little bit, or at least gives you comfort that you're not alone in wanting to pull your hair out. *hugs* :-*
ETA: Thought you might enjoy seeing my 2-1 thread wondering what in the world to do with DS (before then, I hadn't really posted because I just accepted the longer days/short nights). You are definitely no alone, hon!!
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=172745.0
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Hiya Sara, this makes total sense and is without a shadow of a doubt exactly what is going on with Oliver.
(X)
(X)
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Hi Sara - Thanks so much for that, it does make a lot of sense. I shall enjoy reading your thread later too! ;) I do have a couple of questions though:
For example, he wakes up early on, say, Monday at 6am. That's a 2 nap day, which preseves a decent bedtime. He might still have a shorter night just because he got 2 naps that day, but an early bedtime does NOT work if LO is not a night sleep tacker-oner
So, he does a 2 nap day. Then the next day, say he sleeps until his regular wake up time of 7. That's a one nap day. The next day might be another early day...so a 2 nap day. And so and so on.
1) If I go with this, please tell me how on earth to make it work when every day is an early day ??? ::) His regular(ish) WU time (if you can call it that) is around 6am. We rarely get any later than 6.30am. And obviously at the moment he is waking even earlier. So where do I draw the line & say ok, he's waken up late enough to do a 1 nap day ???
2) If I keep offering an 'early' nap on a 1 nap day i.e. before lunchtime, it will always mean he has a really long A time to BT, which is more likely to lead to OT which may then lead to EW. However, when he EW's it is almost impossible to get the nap any later. ::) So how do I get round this if he carries on waking early? I realise the ultimate aim is for the nap to fall after lunch & this should help to prevent OT at BT & encourage a later WU. How to get there ???
but an early bedtime does NOT work if LO is not a night sleep tacker-oner
3) I agree that doing EBT esp. on a 2 nap day is risky, esp as Oliver doesn't always tack on at night. However, I also know that repeatedly doing 13-14hr days is really not a good idea as it will just lead to OT & misery. So if he has woken 6am ish & we do a 1 nap day with nap at 11am, should I be bringing his BT much earlier than 7pm ??? I am so worried that pushing him at both ends of the day - from EW to nap & from nap to regular 7pm BT is asking for trouble b/c he is going to get very OT - leading to more EW. Doing EBT scares me as it *may* lead to EW, but then we are never giving him the opportunity to sleep longer if we keep pushing him all the time IYSWIM ???
Today for example, went:
Wake: 5.50am (10h 50 sleep - following a 1 nap day)
A = 5h 10min
Nap: 11.00am - 1.30pm (at grandparents while I was at work today. I asked them to PD no later than 11am, or earlier if he needed it)
A = 5h 30min
BT: 7.00pm
He was quite happy right til BT but was verging on loopy & clearly very tired when we PD. So just 2 days of 1 nap & the tiredness is creeping in again. No surprises as he's done 2 very long days with huge A times. I am thinking we maybe should have done 6.30BT here???
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And today he woke at 5.30am, only 10.5hrs sleep. Ugh ugh ugh!!!! And that's after a 1 nap day. So, it seems he EW's after a 2 nap day & he EW's after a 1 nap day. I don't think he looks particularly well rested either, he's playing happily but has dark circles under his eyes. It surely HAS to be either too much day sleep, or the day is just far too long??? 2.5hrs+ of naps is A LOT for him, it really is.
So what to do now? If I just stick with a more suitable A time for him of 4-4.75hrs, he will be napping somewhere from 9.30-10.15, this is surely far too early to do a 1 nap day??? So I just AP a CN in the car later on, but what if he doesn't sleep (as he will often refuse PM nap if he's had a long AM nap)? We can't do EBT as that would be 5.30 or 6pm, so we have no choice but to push him to be OT do we? This just feels like a big nasty trap. We're stuck with EW yet again & the clocks change in only 3 wks meaning 4.30am WU's will be on the cards if we don't have this sorted. Gross!
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((hugs)) I know you're not the only one dreading the clocks going back :-\ Tbh I think you need to plough on with 1 nap if you can keep the day to around 13 hours (so 5.30-6.30) and hope he does another 11 hour night...If you're needing to do more like a 14 hour day then do the 2 naps like Sara says. Personally I think 2.5 hours nap is great for his age and doesn't need capping...Tbh hun you really just need to ride this out for a week, stick to a plan and see where you're at, it won't fix itself straight away, but man don't we all know wish it would with these LOs ;)
WHat did you end up doing today? x
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Hiya. Today went:
Wake: 5.30am
Nap: 10.15am - 12.40pm (2h 25mins - BUT woke at 45mins & 1.5hr mark - resettled himself)
BT: 6.45pm ()
So, this morning he was shaking his head quite a lot at about 9am (tired sign), but same as usual, I thought - 'no I can't put you down yet, its too early' & so I kept him up for 4.75hrs A time. He did play happily for the entire A time but was clearly rather tired when I PD. He had 2 mid nap wakeups so I know he was already OT before his nap today. Am I making a HUGE mistake here ??? Doing an early nap puts the fear of God into me b/c I know it can just encourage the EW, but how will I ever get him over his OT if I don't put him down when he is actually tired ???
I tried for a CN in the car this afternoon between 4.15-5pm but he didn't sleep. We aimed for 6.30pm BT to keep us to a 13hr day, so I put him down at 6.15pm. Took him 30mins to settle. Clearly OT. So, day 3 of 1 nap & even with a shorter A time before the nap, OT is starting to take hold. How can I alleviate it though when he won't take a CN??? I suspect a 13hr day is even too long for him when on 1 nap.
I am seriously thinking about doing a 15min AM nap to get him through to his big nap after lunch although starting this from a 5.30am or earlier WU will be tricky. Its the ONLY thing I haven't tried yet.
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Personally I think 2.5 hours nap is great for his age and doesn't need capping...Tbh hun you really just need to ride this out for a week, stick to a plan and see where you're at, it won't fix itself straight away,
I agree with Charli.
The aim in the 2-1 switch is to get them to the stage where they are managing 5 hours + A time so whatever plan you decide on, if your over-riding aim is to get to 1 nap then you need to have a time in the day when you are pushing out those A times consistently. His body clock needs a chance to adjust.
I also agree with Sara then a 10-10.5 hour night in the 2-1 switch would not necessarily be OT and would be an OK nights sleep and he should be able to manage a proper amount of A time after that amount of night sleep. And after a 2 hour + nap he should beable to handle at least that again.
I think I would do:
Wake up (presuming 10 hours + sleep)
4.75 A time
Nap (2.5 hours + based on what he has been doing, I wouldn't cap)
4.75-5 hours A time (more likely 5 hours is over 2 hour nap)
Bed
That gives you a 12/12.5 hour day which probably isn't going to result in a 12 hour night with your DS yet. I would do this for 4-5 days (if nap is short or if you think he is getting OT you may need to AP a CN and have slightly later bedtime on day 3 or 4 but that should combat any EW you may be having and lead to a better wake up. And you will need the later bedtime to make sure he gets enough A time that day). Then when he is used to that I would up the A time in the am to 5 hours in the A time for 4-5 days and the same in the evening.
It is really tough I know xx
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Thanks Shiv. I will try to keep with the 4.75hrs A for the next 4 days while he's at home with me & see where it gets us.
I am only worrying about all of this so much b/c he is starting off from an OT & EW position. I am CERTAIN there is OT at play here & this is the sole reason for him doing shorter nights all of a sudden. We were generally getting 11-11.5hr nights before we jumped to 1 nap.
I'll let you know how we are getting on in a few days time.
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{{{{hugs}}}
There will be OT. Like any transition I guess. We'd terrible OT after dropping the CN and I think all the tweaking made it worse in the long term. Only once I set the naps and went with it did it get better after a few weeks. With one nap I went cold turkey and it was by far a much better transition after 3-4 weeks of getting used to the longer A times and riding out the OT.
It will get better xx
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I know I said I'd update in a few days time but UGH!!!! That's about how I feel today.
He was up at 6am, 11h 15 night. We did have several crying NW's, he resettled each time though.
This morning he had HUGE bags & looked dreadful. He was also excitable, squealing & a bit loopy & spinning round in circles pretty much from the moment we got up. Does this sound like OS/OT behaviour to you ??? Can he actually be OT as soon as he wakes up after a fairly decent night's sleep ???
I almost PD at 9.15am for a short 15min CN but I put him in bed & after 10mins I wasn't convinced he was going to sleep so I got him up & stuck with the 4.75hrs A this morning. It took him ages to settle & A time ended up being 4h 55mins, & he napped for just 1h 15mins. I left him for a few mins to resettle as generally he will resettle himself & my going in will just disturb him more. He didn't & then started to shout 'poo' down the monitor. Changed his nappy & there was NO WAY he was going back to sleep. He was wide awake & happy.
We've been out in the car this PM & he hasn't slept (which I'm rather surprised by) & he started being all 'loopy' again when we got home & then rubbed his eyes during a nappy change so I put him in bed at 3.40pm. Nap attempt abandoned at 4.10pm - he just absolutely isn't going to sleep. So even if I do EBT at 6 or 6.30pm thats still around a 6hr A time after a 1h 15min nap. Its just too long.
WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THIS CHILD????? Does it sound like he was UT for his nap??? In my gut I don't think so - I am pretty sure he's horribly OT & so 'wired' he can't sleep properly.
Ladies I know you all keep saying to be consistent with him but how on earth do I proceed when I can't get him back to sleep or to even take a C/N if he short naps ??? He just gets more & more OT with each passing day, which is what caused the EW in the first place.
How can I EVER be consistent with him when his naps & WU's vary so much on a day-to-day basis, as surely what works as an A time one day will never work the next??? Yesterday he did a 10h 50 night followed by 4.75hrs A & did a 2.5hr nap. Today an 11h 15 night followed by 4.75hrs A & did a 1.25hr nap.
Where do I draw the line & say OK this isn't working? My gut is still saying to me I should do the short AM C/N.
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Today we have 5am WU. 10.5hrs sleep - & that's even after only sleeping 1h 15 yesterday & doing 6.25hrs A time to BT. He is so so OT. If I keep him up 4.75hrs A again that makes a 9.45am nap. Surely that is far too early for 1 nap. And you see what happens when I try to get a CN - it just doesn't happen. He is so so OT - currently crying at 7.15am & we are in a right old mess. I really can't see the wood for the trees right now & have no idea how to get us out of it.
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Claire I think you need to AP a morning cat nap, pretty much as early as he will take it-is that poss? I say AP (ie car) as it'll just be too mean to put him in bed then wake him 20 mins later! Then aim for about 3 hours A time after it (even less if he's a mess) and do the long nap..Whatcha think? X
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Agree. Had a talk with DH this morning & this is more or less what we agreed. I am aiming for around 9am & I'm reasonably confident he will go down. I'm not sure his PM nap will fall after lunch if I do it so early & only give 20mins nap though. We shall see!
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Hi Claire. Perhaps what you're seeing is just his need for a catnap every couple of days to offset his 1 nap days. There's nothing wrong with that.
Also, regarding night sleep, the general rule of thumb is that anything over 10h of night sleep is good.
So, by all means, try the catnap for a couple of days, and then after that, do the 1 nap days again. Another idea I had is if he's consistently waking at 6am now, have you tried wake to sleep to see if you can get anymore zzzzs out of him?
He's not teething by any chance, is he?
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Hi Sara
No teething atm. Canines are already through so we shouldn't have any more for quite a while unless he gets his 2 year molars incredibly early!
WRT night sleep - I would totally agree 10hrs was OK if what I was seeing was a happy, well rested baby but he is not. He has permanent huge black bags under his eyes & is constantly acting 'loopy' excitable, squealing, crawling round in circles, and he is having meltdowns at the drop of a hat. He is most definitely 100% very overtired. Also only a few weeks ago we were having 11-11.5hr nights on 2 naps. I've no choice to do 1 nap again come Mon-Tues due to his daycare arrangements, but while he is at home with me he will be having an AM CN all being well. I really think he is not quite there with his A times yet & needs that short CN to keep him going til lunch.
Today I actually let him have 30min AM nap 9-9.30 & then he slept a solid 2hr nap with no wakeups from 12.30-2.30pm. I woke him from that to keep us on track for BT. Lets hope that he wakes a touch later tomorrow & then I can shorten that nap down to 15mins & see if that helps us over the weekend.xx
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Today I actually let him have 30min AM nap 9-9.30 & then he slept a solid 2hr nap with no wakeups from 12.30-2.30pm. I woke him from that to keep us on track for BT. Lets hope that he wakes a touch later tomorrow & then I can shorten that nap down to 15mins & see if that helps us over the weekend.xx
I agree to let him catch up on some sleep :) Keep us posted!
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Thanks Sara
This morning he stirred at 5.10am & was then dozing on & off until 5.45am when he was up for the day. I know continually offering him a 30min AM nap from 9-9.30 is not a good idea b/c it will keep encouraging him to wake early, esp if he needs 3.5-4hrs A before he will go down for his nap. Its a vicious cycle I have been in before, & it does not help. Only a month ago we were getting 6-6.30am WU's every day & we were doing his AM nap no earlier than 10am, so I know we need to get back to that.
So, decided to aim for 9.30am nap for 15mins & then a 2hr PM nap from 12-2. He started looking a bit tired just after 9am so we did quiet activities until I put him down. He laid down straight away & grabbed his teddy, but then kicked up a right old stink, & took until 9.37am to settle. So 3h 52A time. I've never done 15min AM nap before so had no idea how long he'd last until his PM nap but thought 2.5hrs might be about right since he does 3hrs A after a 30min nap. PD at 12.05pm aiming for asleep at 12.20pm. Took him until 12.35pm to settle. He chattered & shouted away & I can't for the life of me figure out if he was OT or UT - though I suspect OT from the stupidly long morning
I am aiming to get the CN to 9.45-10am & PM nap from 12.30-2.30 & want to stick rigidly with it for a week or 2 to see if it helps us. This will be tricky especially at nursery, but I'm going to ask them to do it.
I do have a wee concern though. If he refuses to settle for his AM nap until he's had 4hrs A time in the AM, then with a CN from 9.45-10am we are never going to get him to wake any later than 5.45are we? And if we do keep with a 4hr 1st A time, then that means every day will be 13-13.5hrs long, which to me, seems REALLY long when he is only doing such a short CN in the AM.
I am also having thoughts I hardly admit to - that maybe by keeping his A on a 1 nap day at 4.75hrs I am actually causing an UT/OT loop, whereby he doesn't sleep long enough at nap time, so is OT at bedtime & so wakes early the next day & it perpetuates. And maybe I am throwing in the towel too soon - one disasterous day & that's it - its not working & we need to try something else. Is it all my inconsistency that's really mucking things up for us? Please be brutally honest?
I feel like I almost need to start again - as we don't really even have a routine to speak of - every day is totally different. And he's just exhausted all the time & its not fun for any of us. So if I was a newbie to BW & wanting to implement a routine b/c we've never had one, - what would your advice to me be?
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Hows it going Clare?
Is it all my inconsistency that's really mucking things up for us? Please be brutally honest?
So if I was a newbie to BW & wanting to implement a routine b/c we've never had one, - what would your advice to me be?
If you were a new poster and you posted your last two weeks I would say it is impossible to know what is working and what is not as no two days are the same. I would say the best thing to do at this stage is to pick a plan and stick to it for at least a week-10 days, more if you are seeing progress. I would say that tired cues at this age are not wholly reliable and not to be changing your plan based on an eye rub or yawn, only on a series of tired cues across a decent time span. (R is 12 months and always seems to give tired signs at 9.30/9.45 (about 2 hours after waking). If I get her to sleep she will do a short nap but I don't and i hold her out to her proper A time and then get a decent nap. But if I was relying solely on tired cues at this stage I would be all over the place).
I would also tell you OT is cumulative and LOs need 1-2 weeks to enable their bodies to get used to a new routine and to push through the OT. By reducing A times again you are lengthening the whole process. I think its also important to know that OT is cumulative and that an EW is not necessarily caused only by the previous day. It can be caused by the past few days which is why I wouldn't change things based on what happened on the day that led to an EW. I would also tell you that a 13-13.5 hour day at this stage of the 2-1 is totally normal and totally fine and if you get more than 10-10.5 hours night sleep then proceed with normal A times and don't reduce.
So i do think you need to decide what your plan is and stick to it and do not change it for at least a week, 10 days at best.
Either do your short am-long pm
or
1 nap with CN every 3-4 days
or
alternate 1 nap and 2 nap days
I would make sure whatever your plan is that you are sticking to at least 4.75 A time first thing if you get anything more than a 10 hour night and I would think of doing 5 hour A time at one side of the nap to give the one nap a better chance of working. I liked Sara's plan for the switch where you base whether you have 1-2 naps based on wake up and i would stick to a fairly set bedtime of 7pm.
When we switched to one nap (with CN every few days) it took 3-4 weeks for the nap to lengthen out. The days were long but she got used to it fairly quickly.
HTH xx
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Hi Claire! I agree with everything that Shiv said, hon. I know it's tough and sometimes hard to see the forest for the trees; but I think picking a plan is the best option at this point.
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Ladies, I wholeheartedly agree. :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
I got my BWSAYP book out again yesterday & re-read a couple of chapters. And the realisation has just smacked me in the face.
It seems in my efforts to be a responsive parent & follow DS's tired cues, I have lost sight of the crucial fact that he NEEDS routine & consistency. I always harp on about how hard it is to have consistency when he wakes & naps at such varied times, but this is only b/c I ALLOW him to. He needs me to take the lead & guide him.
I always followed the EAS pattern just as Tracey suggested but could never figure why DS's naps were'nt consistent or how to get us there. I obviously totally missed the bit in her book (p177) where she says that the naps need to be at more or less the same time every day (give or take 15mins). What on earth have I been doing for the last 9 months ??? I think I got so entrenched in solving his EW that I forgot all the basic principles of BW :-[
So, like Shiv says, we need a firm plan & to STICK to it. I like the suggestions you gave Shiv & I also have a possible plan of my own. I'd really appreciate your opinions ladies:
My biggest concern right now is this: He is still very OT. I think if I try pushing an already OT baby 5hrs to nap time every single day it is not going to be pretty.
So, say I start with 4hrs A (so 10am nap assuming 6am WU) & allow a 1.5hr nap, & then similar A followed by PM CN & do that for a good 3-5 days. This should help eliminate any OT that he's currently harbouring, & encourage his wakeup to shift later. Then, I extend the AM A time by 15mins to 4h 15 & let him sleep as long as he wants & do a PM CN if necessary. Then in another 5 days extend it again to 4.5hrs & so on until we are at 5hrs & then hold it there consistently. This is the method Tracey describes in BWSAYP to transition to 1 nap & I just wondered if it would be a gentler way for him to get there, without getting so OT in the process as he would if I push him straight to 5hrs when he is used to doing around 4. That way we are working towards our goal & keeping a consistent A time to his nap, whilst hopefully eliminating the existing OT & encouraging his WU to shift later. Obviously there is a risk of PM C/N refusal, but once his A time is upwards of 4.5hrs it shouldn't really matter as we can just do EBT.
What do you think? Is that totally pointless & a long winded way of getting there?
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Hun I don't think it can get any more longwinded now ;) ;) :P I think it's a very good plan. My only concern is him potentially refusing a PM cn, but if he does refuse consistently perhaps you could fast forward to the second stage of the plan?
I think the very fact that you have a plan and want to stick to it is perfect ;D
xxx
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{{{{hugs Claire}}}}}
I think that sounds great. Its a good idea to eliminate the OT before moving on but not taking too loing about it because once O is caught up he starts refusing the nap and then you end up in the same cycle. So I agree with Charli and think if after 3 days he starts faffing about at PM CN then move to 4.15 A time the next day. I would stick with that plan the whole way through. If you find at 4.15 he is taking a great nap and PM CN is not happening get to 4.30 A time after 3 days. KWIM? I think what you are suggesting sounds great and i do think the consistency will pay off.
It seems in my efforts to be a responsive parent & follow DS's tired cues, I have lost sight of the crucial fact that he NEEDS routine & consistency
No one can fault you for that. I think though for me BWing is so so much more than EASY and sleep. So by the time my DD1 was 1 I used the BWing methods much much more for all the other areas in her life. But you are right. They do need a consistent routine at this stage. It is much less about cues once they get to this age and more about consistency. But you can move your cue watching to all the other areas in O's life xx
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Thanks so much for bearing with me ladies. :)
I already ran my plan by Vicki (SammysMammy) & she also thought it sounded good, bar the PM C/N refusal risk (thanks hun ;)).
Shiv that is a sensible suggestion WRT the CN refusal i.e. to see this as my sign to shift the nap out later. Right, tomorrow DS is at his grandparents for the day & trying to work in a PM C/N may well be difficult, so Wednesday is day 1 of 'THE PLAN'. I will report back in a week.
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Hope it goes well xx
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Siigh - we're not off to a very good start ladies - he's poorly again.
He woke repeatedly last night, up for the day 5.45am. He's picked up hand, foot & mouth disease (from nursery I suspect) & has blisters on his hands, feet & in his mouth & more are appearing on his legs. He's very fussy & whittery & was yawning at 8.30am.
I still went with 'the plan' & he fought the first nap even though I was sure he was tired. Asleep at 9.55am (4hrs 10). WU crying at 30min, 50min & nap was over at 1hr 20. He's been fussy all day & is constantly rubbing at his eyes/nose/mouth & I can't tell if he's tired or just sore. So I've risked it & tried to put him down for a nap for 3pm & he's kicking up a stink. He's been in there 20mins now so I suspect I will have to get him back up & try for a CN in the car. I've a sneaking suspicion we will be having yet another 1 (very short) nap day, so he will have been awake since 11.15am right til bedtime. How early do I do BT if he won't nap? Even if I do 6pm that's still 7hrs?
What the heck am I going to do ??? He is so, so overtired he is sleeping terribly all the time, night & day.
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Oh no poor baby :'( OK maybe you need to delay the plan by a few days and revert to AM cn and PM nap, maybe one nap days after 2 2 nap days? Try and avoid that OT whilst he is so poorly...
x
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Thanks Charli. I finally got a 10min CN in the car & did 6.30pm BT. He woke at 4.50am coughing & coughed continually until 6.45am when I got him up. He was quiet in between coughs so I'd like to hope he got a bit more sleep. Like you say I think I have to play it by ear til he's better & then try again.
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good luck and ~~~~~~~~~~~~healthy vibes~~~~~~~~~~~~~ to little O xxx
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Thanks. We got antibiotics from the Doc for his cough but the hand foot & mouth virus has to just run its course. Hoping he'll get better soon. He was ready for sleep after just 2hrs A today but I had to hold him out til we got home from the doctors. He went down for a nap at 10.30am (3h 45 A) & was asleep in minutes. Hoping its a better nap than yesterday!
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Awh poor wee man. Hope he is feeling better soon xx
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PLEASE HELP ladies. I really don't know what to do & I am at the end of my tether. :'( :'( :'(
Even though he is poorly, we got PM C/N refusal today. :-\ Day went:
Wake: 6.45am (after very disturbed night & coughing 4.50-6.45)
Nap: 10.25-12.10 (earliest I could PD due to docs appt. He had been showing tired signs at just 2hrs A. Asleep 2mins after PD. Had OT WU's at
30min & 1h 15. Nap total 1h 45)
CN: - failed (attempted in car 3.50-5pm. He was fussing 3.30pm but thought was due to mouth sores. Looked tired 3.50pm so went for drive. Yawned as soon as put in car seat & spent next 15mins rubbing his eyes/yawning, then started to fuss/cry for rest of journey but no nap - OT???)
BT: 6.20pm (straight to sleep after 6hrs 10)
We all knew going with PM C/N was risky but I can't believe he refused even when he is poorly.
Did I totally miss his tired signs ??? Surely this nap refusal cannot be UT ??? I mean, if he was yawning/eye rubbing/fussing he had to be pretty tired, right? He HAS to be OT, he HAS to be. So that means I just took him out too late, right? He's waking repeatedly at night, early every morning & his naps are disturbed. He looks shocking, is constantly whittery & this is not just down to him being poorly. I honestly feel like we only got in this awful mess since we started pushing him to 1 nap. Maybe all this nap resistance really is plain old OT & I actually need to shorten up his A's???
Shiv, I know you said to increase A & push towards 1 nap if we get CN refusal but surely I can't do this while he is poorly??? He is so, so tired & how will I ever know if he really does need more A when he is THIS tired?? I really have no strategy left & I am at my wits end. :'( :'( :'( :'(
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((hugs)) sweetie, why can't we revert to am catnap and pm long nap? He may have been OT, but maybe he was genuinely a bit UT from having had a long albeit disturbed nap?
Fwiw my nearly 16mo is still in the 2-1 and generally still takes 2 naps! X
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Shiv, I know you said to increase A & push towards 1 nap if we get CN refusal but surely I can't do this while he is poorly??? He is so, so tired & how will I ever know if he really does need more A when he is THIS tired?? I really have no strategy left & I am at my wits end.
{{{{hugs Claire}}}} That was my advice if all was ok but I don't think you can apply it if he is ill. I do though think he may well have been UT after such a good nap.
I think you need to let him get well before you push his A time. DO you think he would go for a short am-long pm tomorrow to get him caught up?
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Thanks ladies - MIL is looking after him tomorrow & yes she could definitely do short AM/long PM.
What length AM nap do I go for? And what sort of A time? Does a 45min AM/1.5hr PM nap sound OK for a few days to help him catch up???
He's waking so early I can't really do 15min nap as this will make the PM nap fall before lunch, unless I push his AM nap to almost 10am, & with how OT he is, I really don't want to be doing that right now. He really needs the rest & doesn't need to be pushed at all.
Thank the lord he's not at nursery next week (he's banished until his blisters/sores are all gone!) & I can at least have a good stab at getting him through this OT.
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Does a 45min AM/1.5hr PM nap sound OK for a few days to help him catch up???
I would do 45 minute AM and let him sleep as long as he wants in the PM xx
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Thanks. He slept 12.5hrs last night & went down for a nap at 9.35am 2.75hrs from waking. He is so very tired ATM.
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Ladies I asked MIL to do a 45min nap this morning. She PD at 9.35am & he went straight to sleep. She woke him after 50mins, at 10.25pm. I got home from work & he suddenly went a bit hyper & then fell over & rubbed his eyes so I put him straight into bed at 1.55pm (3.5hrs A). He went down ok, no crying or anything & but chattered on & off for 20 mins, asleep 2.15pm (3hrs 50 A).
How long do I let him sleep if I want to do 7pm BT? If he does 1.5hrs he will be up at 3.45pm - won't that be too late with a 7pm BT? Or do I need to do BT later in order to give him enough A to BT & shift that WU later?
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I think I'd be tempted to let him sleep 2 hours then do a later bedtime xx
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Thanks Charli. How late a BT would we be talking with a 2hr nap though ?? He just did 3hrs 45mins A after a 45min nap so wouldn't he need even longer after a 2hr nap - more like 4-4.5hrs? That would put BT at 8.15-8.45pm ??? I was more thinking along the lines of 7.30pm BT at the latest.
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What did you end up doing?
I'd have done 2 hour nap then 8.15pm bedtime.
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I've probably messed up again, but we did 1.5hr nap & even with that he started to fuss with tiredness at 6.20pm. We did a long bath & PD just after 7pm, asleep 7.15pm. Bit scared as tried to point out to DH that was only 3.5hrs A after a 1.5hr nap, which is less than he did after his 45min nap, but we both had to agree he was definitely tired. We'll have to hope it doesn't come back to bite us tomorrow.
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fingers crossed for a good night for you xxxx
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Last night was the first night in WEEKS that we didn't get any OT wakeups in the early part of the night. That has to be a good sign right? He stirred at 4.50 & 5.30 & woke for the day at 6.30am, so 11h 15mins sleep. I PD at 9.30am again today & he chattered for a while until 9.43am so I think he may have been a tad UT for his nap. Again to my mind this is a good sign that he is catching up as yesterday he went STS when MIL put him down after just 2.75hrs A.
We are going to keep a close eye on his naps over the next couple of days then gradually shorten the AM one back down to 30mins & give that a fair try b/c tbh we never really tried that for more than a few days before jumping straight to 1 nap. If he is still UT I will shorten the AM nap further & further until it is just 10mins & then it will be time for us to make the jump, but hopefully this time we can do it without so much OT.
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Hi ladies
We did another 2 nap day yesterday - it went:
Wake: 6.30
Nap: 9.43 - 10.25 (PD at 9.20 for 9.30 nap but took him a while to settle. No crying or fighting so suspect a tad UT. We woke him at 45mins)
Nap: 1.40 - 3.10 (PD at 1.20 as he was constantly head shaking. We had originally planned to do 2pm nap as per the day before but he seemed too tired. Took 20mins to settle again, but no crying, just chatter. We woke him after 1.5hrs)
BT: 7.00pm
We had an 11.5hr night last night - up at 6.30am. O's still got big bags under his eyes but they are definitely looking better than they did a few days ago.
I think I have made a bit of a boo boo this morning though. PD for 9.30am nap as per last 2 days. He didn't go to sleep yesterday until 9.42am so I thought he might need a bit more A today, but he started head shaking at 9.15am so I got him upstairs at 9.20. He was UT again, took him 30mins to settle to sleep. So don't know what this head shaking is all about.
Its so tricky b/c as he catches up he is obviously going to need more A, but its knowing how much. I don't want to push him too much b/c I honestly think he has been in a permanent state of OT for quite a while. The difference in him when I lay him down for naps is quite unbelievable. Last week, when I PD he would excitedly tear from one end of the cot to the other, and now he is just laying straight down quietly.
So, I was thinking maybe we should do nap at 9.45 for a couple of days & cut 5ish mins off the nap length, then shift it to 10am, at which point we need to cap it at 30mins so PM nap can remain at 1.30-3pm. Do you think that sounds ok?
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Claire I think it's def a good idea to keep to 2 naps whilsts he's recovering and still
OT, like the idea of gradually shaving too. Great night hey! Xx
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I hate to say it but I think we're heading back into another UT/OT loop.
Yesterday:
Wake: 6.30am
Nap: 9.43 - 10.25 (A = 3h 13) S = 42mins
Nap: 1.40 - 3.10 (A = 3h 15) S = 1.5hrs
BT: 7.00
Today so far:
Wake: 6.30am
Nap: 9.47 - 10.25 (A = 3h 17) S = 37mins (PD 9.20 due to tired cues, took 27mins to settle so he must be UT. I woke him at same time as yesterday to preserve PM nap as I thought he was a little less tired)
Nap: :-\RESISTANCE :-\ & still awake at 2.15pm
I PD 1.15pm as he started fussing & getting excitable - thought he'd already got his second wind so got him straight down. He's still chattering/playing in cot 1hr later, so A = 3.75hrs & counting. He's now starting to fuss/whine as I think he's getting fed up of being in there.
How do we rescue/recover the rest of the day??? Do we cut the nap shorter than 1.5hrs to keep BT on track? Or do we need to push BT out to 4hrs from WU from his nap, if he ever actually goes to sleep ???
Then what for tomorrow - would you suggest we need to get the AM nap capped at 30mins max? And maybe from 10-10.30 (assuming we get a 6.30am WU?) In which case when do we do the PM nap ??? Is 1.30 a reasonable target or are we looking at more like 2pm? & I guess BT would also need to be later right - more like 7.30pm to give him enough A after a 1.5hr nap?
ETA: he finally fell asleep at 2.28pm after a 4hr A time (after a 37min nap). ::)
ETA: we let him sleep 1hr, up at 3.30pm & did 7pm BT. He was rather tired. Siigh.
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Ladies we were up today at 5.45am. I can't believe how easily O is affected by OT. One messy day & we're back to repeated NW & EW. Siigh.
Had been planning to do 30min nap 10-10.30 & 1.5hr PM nap (assuming we got a 6.30WU again) but am now scared that its too much of a jump in A times from 3h 15 to 4h 15 overnight. Does 9.30-10AM sound better & hopefully we can nudge it back towards 10AM over the next couple of days with some later WU's? And then cut the nap back to 15mins?
My gut feeling now is that none of this is doing what its supposed to b/c DS is just about ready for 1 nap. We had this same scenario 2 weeks ago. Trouble is, DH doesn't agree. He thinks its just a case of us not having found the right A times for his PM nap & if we crack it he will be able to carry on with 2 naps. I'm really not convinced. However, I don't see how on earth we can make the jump when he is waking early already & is so easily upset by becoming OT. Siigh.
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Claire...I think you need to go back to this for all the reasons we discussed before.
So, say I start with 4hrs A (so 10am nap assuming 6am WU) & allow a 1.5hr nap, & then similar A followed by PM CN & do that for a good 3-5 days. This should help eliminate any OT that he's currently harbouring, & encourage his wakeup to shift later. Then, I extend the AM A time by 15mins to 4h 15 & let him sleep as long as he wants & do a PM CN if necessary. Then in another 5 days extend it again to 4.5hrs & so on until we are at 5hrs & then hold it there consistently. This is the method Tracey describes in BWSAYP to transition to 1 nap & I just wondered if it would be a gentler way for him to get there,
But i am confused...are you now saying you are going back to short am/long pm?
A few more thoughts....I would be worried about continuing as you are going as he spent a really LONG time yesterday settling for naps. A half hour for his first nap and 1hr15 for his second. That is the biggest indictor that the A times you are using are not working. And as we said before tired signs can only take you so far at this age. So he spent nearly 2 hours of his day trying to settle for naps. Please don't take this the wrong way but that is alot of time to be in a cot on your own not sleeping when he should be up and having fun. I think you are maybe concentrating too much on trying to sort these naps and putting too much stock on tired signs so yesterday when he was getting fussy and excitable at the pm nap I'd have changed activity, went for a run round the garden etc. His tired signs are clearly not reliable at this point hun and i think for the next few weeks you need to clock watch and get him on a consistent routine.
The other issue I see is you keep cutting his PM nap to preserve bedtime. I don't think this is fair on O. You are not allowing him a restorative nap in the day time. He needs at least 1.5 hours. At least. So I think if you are continuing down this 2 nap route (and even in the move to one nap) you need to accept that you have to allow him at least 1.5 hours and then a proper amount of A time after and if that means bedtime is 8pm then you have to be OK with that. I think cutting his PM nap to preserve bedtime is not doing you any favours in the longterm and actually going to contribute to the UT/OT loop more than a longer day.
but am now scared that its too much of a jump in A times from 3h 15 to 4h 15 overnight
No I think move to 4 hours like you were going to do originally. Remember what i posted last week....the effects of the routine are cumulative. It is not just yesterday that effected last night. KWIM? He was handing 4 hours a few days ago. If he's caught up in his OT then go back to 4 hours. I think at 12 months anything less than 3.45/4 hours is not appropriate anyways so I do think you need to pick a base A time and go with it even in OT periods. You have to let him get used to the A times and push through the OT.
SOrry i am rushing out the door for nursery run so excuse this being short but wanted to get back to you before your am nap. I think pick a plan and give it at least a week without changing anything.
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Hi Shiv - thanks so much for your reply.
We were doing short AM/long PM to let him catch up on his OT yes. Yesterday I wasn't sure he had fully caught up (even though the signs were there :-[ as he took 20mins to settle for all naps the day before), so I carried on. Clearly the A times we are using are too short.
I also agree that capping the PM nap doesn't help. All it did was make him OT. I tried to argue a case for making BT later, but DH doesn't agree. He thinks stretching the day is worse than not giving him enough A before bed whereas I disagree with that, as insufficient A will just make him EW, and cutting the nap means he hasn't had enough sleep.
DH & I talked & we both agree that my plan to do 4hrs A long nap & PM catnap won't work b/c he just won't take the PM c/n. And 4hrs A in the AM is just not enough to get him through the day, esp when we are starting with an EW. For example, if I go back to 4hrs A today, that is only 9.45am. Even with a nice 2hr nap, he will be awake before midday & so we are looking at 6hrs+ A time to BT if he refuses the CN, which will just make him more OT. So how do we get round this ???
I know some OT is inevitable in the transition, but you have seen the effect it has on O. Just a tiny bit of it & we get EW virtually straight away. Then it makes it so very difficult for us to carry on.
I think maybe we need to do a longer first A than 4hrs, more like 4.5-4.75hrs & maybe we have a fighting chance of a decent nap & getting through the day. My biggest problem ATM is that DH really doesn't agree. He thinks 1 nap just makes him OT, and yes I agree it does, if we keep allowing stupidly long days like 13+hrs. So I feel like I am stuck trying to muddle through with 2 naps.
Siigh. I'm off today since he's not allowed to nursery, so I actually have a full week where I could implement a decent routine. Do I just go for it?
ETA: I am an idiot & I have chickened out again. :-[ He started rubbing his eyes at 9.15am despite changing activities & then at 9.35 got really fussy & yawned so I PD (we hardly ever get yawns so def a good tired sign). He fussed/cried for a good 10mins, not at all like yesterday when he was chatty & playing in bed & most definitely UT. I think he is already OT & I'm not surprised after the mess we got in with his naps yesterday. Asleep 9.50am, same as yesterday. 4hrs 5mins A. It looks like I have no choice but to go with the short AM/long PM again today though. I can't risk this being the only nap of the day can I ??? So I will do 30mins AM nap, 1.5hr PM nap & we will take your advice & stretch BT if needed, Shiv.
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((hugs)) hun I know you're finding this all really hard :-*
Trouble is, DH doesn't agree. He thinks its just a case of us not having found the right A times for his PM nap & if we crack it he will be able to carry on with 2 naps.
Thing is hun, we can't "prove" to your DH that O needs one nap, it IS going to be a messy transition and maybe EWs are something you just have to accept will happen for a good couple of months, and something you need to combat every few days with a cn of some sort. Having said that, you are still juggling his routine a lot, after saying you've realised he needs more set times yk? I *know* that set times are really hard to do when you have EWs, but you'll never know if you don't stick to it for a WHILE.
And the fact that you don't really want to compromise his 7pm bedtime works well with this, b/c if anything you can bring bt forward to 6.30 (if you've had a 5.30am WU)
Having said *that* :P
Claire...I think you need to go back to this for all the reasons we discussed before.
So, say I start with 4hrs A (so 10am nap assuming 6am WU) & allow a 1.5hr nap, & then similar A followed by PM CN & do that for a good 3-5 days. This should help eliminate any OT that he's currently harbouring, & encourage his wakeup to shift later. Then, I extend the AM A time by 15mins to 4h 15 & let him sleep as long as he wants & do a PM CN if necessary. Then in another 5 days extend it again to 4.5hrs & so on until we are at 5hrs & then hold it there consistently. This is the method Tracey describes in BWSAYP to transition to 1 nap & I just wondered if it would be a gentler way for him to get there,
I agree this is probably the best course of action for a few days whilst he is OT and poorly. Sorry if this doesn't make a huge amount of sense, I've had 2 NW girls and not enough caffeine!!!!!!
x
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I tried to argue a case for making BT later, but DH doesn't agree. He thinks stretching the day is worse than not giving him enough A before bed whereas I disagree with that, as insufficient A will just make him EW, and cutting the nap means he hasn't had enough sleep.
I agree with you. I think making him get through the day on two short naps is very very unfair and then to expect him to make it through the night OT is unreasonable. A longer day with proper A times and one proper restorative nap and a later bedtime is much fairer on O and in the long term helps the shift to one nap. A 13 hour day is normal in this 2-1 switch, even 13.5 before the jump to one nap (which is why then people make the jump as the day is getting so long) so if you guys are going to stick to 2 naps then you need to accept a 13/13.5 hour day.
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Thanks ladies. I know we are juggling a bit but we were just trying to get him through being poorly. And we have stuck with the same nap times, its just him who hasn't LOL! Obviously I know its b/c he's not tired enough & things need to change.
Shiv - I just went up at the 30min mark to wake him up from his AM nap & he is so fast asleep he didn't even stir when I put the light on & went in the room. So I came back out. :o :o Since he did 4hrs A I have done what you suggested & gone back to 'THE PLAN' of long AM nap, since we never really had chance to get started with it last week due to him being poorly.
I am so scared of this b/c its so early in the day for a 1 nap day. I am scared to death he won't take a PM nap. So, do I just let him sleep as long as he wants, or do I need to wake him at 1.5hrs in order to make sure we get that PM C/N?
On the one hand I think I should wake him, however if I do wake him & he still refuses to C/N then he's only had 1.5hrs sleep all day & that's really not enough. If he takes a 2hr+ nap, what sort of EBT should we be doing? 6pm ??? Is that really an EBT when he was up at 5.45am ???
I am going to try & keep to this now he's getting over his illness.
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So he went down at 9.45am ish? I would let him sleep as long as he wants but no longer than 12.
But say he does 2 hours you will be looking at at least 4.30 A time so aim for a CN around 4.30pm (better to be OT then UT) for 15 minutes or so then 2.45 or so to bed at 7.30pm. Do not be tempted to go for a CN before 4.30 or it will get refused. You aim is to make sure he is getting enough A time through the day. I'd forget how long the day is for a week.
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Oh and run him ragged before the CN. Make sure he is physically tired. Jumping on the bed and obstacle courses work well here x
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Hiya
He went down at 9.50am & woke at 11.10am - 1hr 20 sleep. 4hrs A really isn't long enough for him is it?
What would you suggest as a decent A time - around 4hrs? So nap 3.15pm ish ??? I think he's going to need a bit longer than 15mins to make it to BT though - maybe allow 30mins?
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I would think 4 hours isn't enough for him.
I would try 4 hours to CN but make sure he is done in. Lots of physical play as I think that still may be short.
After 30 minutes CN you will still need a decent time to bed. Both my LOs could manage practically all their usual A time on a 30 minute CN. So presuming he'll need time to settle and is awake from the CN at 4pm give him a really decent A time to bed. I would probably do 7.15/7.30pm.
I think he has shown he can do great A times on short naps or one naps so I think its best assuming he can handle more than you think. So maybe decide what you would go for and then add a half hour ;)
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Highly recommend lots of outside time! Totally poops my two xx
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He's not walking yet so outside play is a tad tricky atm - but I will engage him in many games of crawling chase!!!!!!!! Thanks ladies. I will keep my fingers crossed that he will take another nap this afternoon.xx
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Hi ladies I just told my dh what I've done & he's not happy at all. I pointed out yet again that there is no point in being consistent with A times that are totally wrong for DS. I do understand his reservations re: the PM catnap though as its almost impossible.
AND to top it all off I think that DS is going to fight the PM nap due to OT. He is already rubbing his eyes & shaking his head & falling over & that is just 2hrs A time. Siigh.
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He'll probably bounce back Hun, sometimes I think dd2 is sooo tired but if we manage a change of scene and entertainment I can usually hold her off. Take him outside in the buggy maybe? I really think the fresh air helps :)
Why's dh not happy then??
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he just thinks DS can't cope with 1 nap & that I am being inconsistent changing yet again, even though what we were doing was a temporary measure while he was poorly. I must admit every time we've tried 1 nap so far we've had lots of OT & EW to boot & it certainly makes me doubt he's ready, but the other option is spending hours every day trying to get him to nap. I agree we haven't got a handle on what A times DS can actually do, but I think if we ever do figure it out it will be a horrendously long day & DS will probably get less sleep than he would with 1 nap anyway.
Lets just hope DS takes the CN & doesn't wake so stupidly early tomorrow eh?
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Good luck and don't be tempted to try too too early for thar cn xx
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I won't. ;) He's playing OK atm though I can tell he's tiring. We'll do 3.30pm earliest which is 4h 20 A time. It might even be a tad later at 3.45pm. I'm going to take a drive I think, and hope for the best!
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How'd you get on Hun? X
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Thinking of you too!
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I think I kept him up too long. We went out in the car at 3.30pm b/c he had started to get fussy & hyper, though not a single yawn or eye rub in sight (bearing in mind I said he rubbed his eyes after 2hrs A). I reckon he was already OT at that point. He is so darn sensitive to it & he doesn't help me out by having absolutely no tired signs until its too late. He yawned as soon as we got in the car before we'd even set off. Got driving & he just cried for a good 15mins & fell asleep at 3.45pm (4hrs 35mins A). I was going to allow 30mins but he woke after just 25mins & hasn't stopped crying since. He's not a happy wee man. OT nap for sure. And DH will not be happy when he gets home & sees him like this. I'm expecting some 'I told you so's
So does 7pm BT sound OK with that? I'm expecting we'll get EW tomorrow though being OT if I'm honest.
And what do I do WRT the routine tomorrow? Do I repeat 4hrs A knowing that it is too short ??? Or increase to 4hrs 15. I am at work tomorrow so there will be no chance for a car C/N so if he needs a PM nap it will have to be in the travel cot at grandmas.
This is really not fun ladies. My baby is tired & miserable & we are just on day 1.
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To be fair Claire what you set out to achieve, worked. You got him to take a CN. it is far too early to know if it isn't going to work.
& we are just on day 1.
Yes hun. It is JUST day one. You have to stop changing things based on one day. He has been great all day. Take him for a walk round the garden and give him a snack and am sure he'll cheer up.
I would stick with it TBH. I don't really know how you can be sure it won't work until you give it a go consistently.
I would do 4.15 tomorrow to increase the chance of a longer nap.
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I agree with everything Shiv said. Don't let DH give you a hard time, either, since it's only been 1 day. Besides, it's not like you're unaware of what might happen if he gets OT...you're home with DS all day.
*hugs*
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Hi ladies. I know I need to stop changing things b/c it is this that is making my DS so tired & miserable - I know.
I absolutely intend to stick with the program - its just about doing the right A to get us through the day. Shiv WRT saying I need to do it consistently - would I be better sticking with the 4hrs A for longer just to be absolutely consistent ??? Am just conscious of the need to get a longer nap (with 4h 15 A) but to do this means we are changing things on him AGAIN. It doesn't seem fair, but is it worse to keep him in an UT/OT loop?
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No do 4.15. 15 minutes can only make a good difference. A change of 10-15 minutes won't make the biggest deal but its the changing from short am to long am, capping his pm nap, altering his bedtime that will cause the biggest issue. During this transition you will alter by 15 minutes at the most on occasion as thats how you get the A time up to beable to cope with one nap.
I also really caution doing bedtime too early. I would do AT LEAST 3 hours A time after a half hour nap. My 12 month old is pretty low on A times a the minute with silly teething but will still do at least 3.5 hours A time after her CN.
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Thanks Shiv
I also really caution doing bedtime too early. I would do AT LEAST 3 hours A time after a half hour nap. My 12 month old is pretty low on A times a the minute with silly teething but will still do at least 3.5 hours A time after her CN.
This scares me. He is still crying & its been almost 1.5hrs since he woke from his C/N. He just won't calm down & is just rubbing his eyes. Isn't doing a late BT just going to make him more OT leading to a shorter night? I would totally agree with the longer A if there wasn't OT involved, but there is. Am I just being too soft?
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I think you have to go with your gut. Do 7pm if you think he really needs it. Not too soft no. Its hard to see them upset. But I would not go earlier than that. Bedtimes on short A times frighten me much more than anything else especially if there have been UT A times and naps the day before. And in this 2-1 nightmare remember any wake up after 5.30(10.5 night) is a GOOD night and so normal A times (4.15) will be fine.
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And in this 2-1 nightmare remember any wake up after 5.30(10.5 night) is a GOOD night and so normal A times (4.15) will be fine.
This^ doesn't fill me with confidence! 5.30am WU's are not what I want to be seeing a week before the clocks change! :o
We've done 7pm BT. I am scared for tomorrow. :-\
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Hope you get a good night.
5.30am WU's are not what I want to be seeing a week before the clocks change!
See both my girls only ever do an 11/11.5 hour night. We don't get 12 hour nights here so I never ever do bedtime before 8pm as I am not starting my day before 7am! M's bedtime was 8.30 with an 8am wake up for a long time. Its now 7.30pm since she's started nursery. R is still 8pm and tends to go to 7/7.30am. I would NOT be a pleasant mummy with 5.30 wake ups or 6.30 for that matter!
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I would NOT be a pleasant mummy with 5.30 wake ups or 6.30 for that matter!
LOL that made me smile. I don't think O is a 12hr night baby either, but I do need to be up at 6.30-7am for work on certain days of the week & am a fairly early riser by nature anyway, so a slightly earlier start of 6am onwards doesn't bother me so much. Just not 5.30am early! Yuck!!!
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What will also make you laugh is that my 12 month old had a long am nap at 11-12.50 and then REFUSED her CN and just went to bed at half 7 and was asleep in seconds! Rascal!
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Fingers x'd for tonight Claire, tomo is a new day :)
Shiv there's something in the air cos DD2 has been loopy today-didn't wake til 8.15am, was planning on keeping her up and the kid was falling over herself so I let her sleep 11.20-12.40 (I woke her) Then she took another nap at 4.10pm-4.40pm (I woke her) and asleep at 7.15pm :o I feel quite convinced I'm in for a 4am start to the day ::)
xxx
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Silly babies!
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Sam was an 11 hour night baby ALWAYS untill just recently and BANG! suddenly a 12 hour a night baby. You just never know ;).
Claire: Stick with it Hon. You did get a result today :). I'll PM you tomorrow.
(x)
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Thanks ladies. Woke crying a few times at 9-10pm & again at 5.40am then was up at 6.45am today. 11h 40 sleep & boy did he need it!
Grandma txt me to say she PD at 11am (4.25hrs) & he slept 2.5hrs! Up at 1.30pm. So shoot for 6.30 or 7pm BT?
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wow great nap hun!! Erm i'm not too sure, play it by ear? Or aim for 6.45! xx
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I'd go for 6.45/7pm!
Great nights sleep!!! Fab nap too!
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Woohoo! That's a good night...I'd also try to get as close to 7pm as possible, since he's not a 12h night sleeper.
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thanks ladies. yes it was a good night but I believe this was only b/c he had a lot of catching up to do from getting OT over the last 2 days. I am also sure this is why he did such a long nap today. Though I did ask grandma if she could come over to our house every day if he naps that well for her! ;)
Can I ask your thoughts on DS's behaviour tonight, ladies?
I got home from work at 5.30pm, he was excited, squealing & shouting at the top of his voice, charging from one end of the room to the other, despite DH's efforts to keep him calm with quiet activities like reading. When he started to fuss/cry at around 6pm we got him ready for bed. What a performance - crying, arching his back, throwing himself backwards, fighting to escape me & for me to chase him. PD at 6.20pm & its taken him until 6.50pm to fall asleep.
Now to both me & DH this seemed like he was already overtired. Did your LO's behave like this through the 2-1 too? And are we missing the boat & putting him to bed too late here? Or could it just be a case of overstimulation from being lavished with attention from grandma all day ???
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I'll be honest and say that is pretty normal 1YO behaviour. I'd say it has little to do with tiredness and more to do with being excited to see his parents and wanting to have some fun and he was disgusted you kept trying to quiet him down and thats why he fussed and cried and then the reason he got upset was because you started getting him ready for bed. I'd have let him play and not started quiet activities until much later. I'd say 1.5 hours of 'quiet' time is far too much for a 6.45/7pm bedtime.
I think 6.20 was far too early to try for bed hun. Its too early when bedtime is supposed to be 7pm. 6.45 is as early as I'd have went. When being consistent 15 minutes either way is ok but more than that can mess things up. I also think at this age they need to be physically tired to sleep well so lots of parents run their LOs ragged in the evenings and then a half hour of wind-down for bed.
So in short it sounds like normal 1YO behaviour to me. R just crawled about like a maniac and we played on the slide and trampoline then had supper and read books and relaxed before bed and she's out like a light.
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Hiya Hon,
I just wanted to add that Shiv made a good point about WD. Sam used to have to be quiet and low key for so much longer when he was younger, but now he can be doing high energy play close to BT (with Daddy of course! I used to tell him off LOL ;)) and then 30 minutes is enough to allow him to calm down when he's exhausted. Goal posts really do move quite quickly when babies become Toddlers.
(X)
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Thanks for the honest opinions ladies.
I thought the idea was to do all the really physical stuff earlier in the day & to keep things a little bit calmer after tea so as not to let LO's get too overexcited before BT, b/c if they get a second wind they will struggle to settle to sleep ??? I guess I don't need to worry so much about that after all. :-[
Having said that, I don't want you all to get the wrong idea from what I wrote - we don't EVER spend 1.5hrs doing reading/quiet time! Its usually just 10mins after his bath/wash & before his bottle. Tonight, DH was just trying to encourage DS to calm down a bit b/c grandma had been playing chase with him before we got home & he was very excitable. He played nicely with his toys & kept bringing books for me to read with him & then all of a sudden he started bursting out into tears for no apparent reason & this is why we got him ready for bed.
He woke 30mins after he went to sleep & again at the 1hr mark so I know he was OT, even with a much shorter day & a fab nap. Lets hope he wakes at a reasonable time tomorrow.
Oh, can I also ask about EBT as I am a little bit confused ??? All the 2-1 sticky info says when you start pushing out the AM nap you need to combine it with EBT to mop up OT. So isn't that what we should be doing in this situation ??? Or does it not apply for us b/c we don't really have a routine to speak of so we need to do set BT until the routine is well established?
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Oh, can I also ask about EBT as I am a little bit confused All the 2-1 sticky info says when you start pushing out the AM nap you need to combine it with EBT to mop up OT. So isn't that what we should be doing in this situation Or does it not apply for us b/c we don't really have a routine to speak of so we need to do set BT until the routine is well established?
OK sorry I probably confused things because you can do early bedtime but after a good nights sleep and a fab nap it is the time to keep things as consistent as possible. OT is inevitable and if you have a good night and nap then that is the time to push through a bit. Early bedtime yes if you get a silly nap and can't get a CN. I tended to keep bedtime fairly set whatever though.
So what is your plan? Are you going to alternate 2 nap days with 1 nap days? I take it you will stick with 4.15 first thing for a few more days and then up it if you aren't getting a CN?
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I take it you will stick with 4.15 first thing for a few more days and then up it if you aren't getting a CN?
Absolutely the plan. We said 3 days before upping to 4.5hrs didn't we? And if no CN then up to 4.5hrs immediately & keep it there for a good 5 days.
Ugh he's crying now (9pm). Not good. :(
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UGH! Hope he settles xx
Is he totally better Claire? When is allowed back to nursery? I think it is so weird how they ban kids for so long when they caught it there in the first place!
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He seems better. He can go back to nursery when the blisters are gone so I'm hoping next week.
He's really crying now, I'm going to have to go. I think its OT.
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FX'd he settles quickly Honey.x.
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Hi ladies. Took around 10mins & lots of cuddles to calm him & settle him back to sleep last night. I'm sure it was an OT waking. He woke briefly at 4.40am then up for the day at 5.20am. He is already fussing, head shaking & rubbing his eyes. 4h 15min A time puts us at 9.35am for his nap. Too early to last all day on just one nap, so a CN is inevitable.
Ladies yesterday his nap was at 11am, today it will be 9.35am. With this much variability in the timing of his WU's & therefore his naps, how am I ever going to get his bodyclock used to napping at a certain nap time???
ETA: I am beyond help ladies. I can't do this. :'( :'( :'(
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At the minute you are trying to get his body used to napping after certain A times not a certain time of the day. So do 4.15 A time then nap. Even if he sleeps 2 hours he'll be up at 11.30 which is plenty of time for 4.15 A time again (at least) then CN then bed at 7pm.
You can do this. Do you think you need to stick to 2 naps for a while and not alternate? I had thought thats what the plan was? So yesterday maybe he should have been woken at 1.5 hours to allow for a CN. And not aim for 1 nap days until he's at least 4.45 A time?
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Hi ladies.
Yesterday went totally awry. I PD for 4h 15 A time, he settled well but woke after just 45mins. He'd done a PP (pesky poo ::). I couldn't get him resettled. I am 99% sure this was not an UT nap b/c he'd done a short night & he most definitely seemed tired, its just that once I go in the room nap is well & truly over, no matter what. He did a 1.5hr PM nap & BT was 7.10pm - up again today at 5.20am. Night sleep = 10h 10mins. Siigh. :'( As soon as I push his A times his nights have shortened loads. Last week with the 2 naps we got 11.5hrs nights & 6.30am WU's. I still can't help thinking he is just plain old OT from being pushed too much. :-\ Regardless, I plan to do 4h 15min A time again today & am hopeful we won't have the PP issue (as he's already been this morning).
Shiv - wrt to sticking to 2 naps or alternating, I was planning to do 2 naps every day but grandma got such a great nap from him the other day that there wasn't time to do the CN. I think I'd planned to cap nap at 1.5hrs while A time was 4hrs but let him sleep once A time was longer, but I think you may be right I need to cap the nap at 1.5hrs until his A time is 4.75hrs. I am very scared though that he may refuse a CN & then we've capped his day sleep & got a very long A time to BT IYSWIM?
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Ladies I need some help here please. The 4h 15min A has not gone well at all & I am feeling at an all time low.
Yesterday went:
Wake: 5.20
Nap: 9.40 - 10.10 (PD at 9.25am, asleep 9.40am, woke crying at 30mins. Tried to resettle him & got screams. Eventually gave in & got him up & I cried. )
Nap: 1.35 - 3.05 (PD 1.10 & he screamed, so got him back up & PD at 1.30, STS at 1.35. Woke at 40mins, 1h 1h 15 & I woke him from nap at 1.5hrs much as I didn't want to.I realise now I probably put him down way too late for a 2nd nap yest as the first time I PD he screamed & I thought he wasnt ready.)
BT: 7.00pm
Today - awake 5am. 10hrs sleep. I spent the first hour of my birthday laying in bed sobbing. DH was almost in tears too b/c he is just fed up of us all being tired & miserable. I just really don't know what to do b/c this just seems to be making him MORE and MORE and MORE OT. This is the 3rd day of 10hrs sleep & crappy naps. 10hrs sleep is really abysmal for Oliver - he's only had 12hrs sleep in 24 & that is on the low side. He is tired this morning, looks dreadful & is incredibly fussy & whiny. 4.5hrs A is going to put us at 9.30am for a nap again today. I feel like things are just going backwards. Every single time I push his A times this is what happens. Maybe we are ALL wrong & he does need shorter A's & I am just missing his cues. I don't know what to think any more.
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((hugs)) sweetie and happy birthday :)
Listen Hun please don't feel like any of us here are "telling" you what to do and we'll be angry if you don't! What do YOU think feels right? If you didn't have any of us to ask, what would your gut tell you to do?
Xxx
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{{{hugs}}}
Happy Birthday!!
I think hun if I were you I would totally take a break from A times. Totally step back from it. Follow your gut for a week. Don't time anything. Just live. I remember another mummy on here getting herself into a state about routine and her DH actually sitting her down and saying 'this baby is not a robot, you cannot programme him with A times' and that really stuck with me. Its not worth it hun if you are crying on your birthday over sleep. I think just follow your gut and stick O down when you think he needs to sleep. Keep a rough note of when he sleeps but do not calculate A times until a week is up. Just use his form and demeanour to help you decide when to let him sleep and maybe that'll give you some clarity as to what is working for him?
He's a tough kiddo as what works for him one day doesn't necessarily work the next so its really tough.
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Claire I just want to post some (HUGS) for you - I know this is not the couch but I also know how hard you try to do what is best for O and that he is tricky with sleep and it is NOT worth feeling this rotten about. You will end up missing out on the good stuff. I totally agree with Charli and Shiv, just let it all go for a week, let DH do some naps over the weekend so you get a break from the sleep part of routine. Ignore those bags you think you see under O's eyes as you will only focus more on them, instead play with him during his A's give him lots of cuddles and have some early BTs with a book or snuggled in with DH. I have been where you are sweetie and there is a point where you gotta let go and just go with the flow.
O will be okay.... :-* :-* :-*
After a week, and once you feel a bit better you may even see something new that just pops out and makes all this sleep mess a little less hard :)
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Ladies - I really don't know what to do for the best. I am so so confused. :'( :'( :'(
I truly know the real root of all our problems is MY inconsistency with him, but I don't know how to sort it out when I don't have any real handle on what his A times are. I'm not sure if 4hrs+ is too long or way too short & I'm not sure if he needs 1 or 2 naps. My gut says 2 but I feel like we are just prolonging the agony as he's well & truly headed towards 1. All I do know is that he is TIRED. And so am I. :'( :'( :'( :'(
I agree I probably do need to take a step back & watch him & see if he can show me the way. B/c I spend FAR too much time fretting over his sleep & its making me feel very stressed & quite honestly I can feel I am slipping back into PPD. I am totally lacking any confidence in what I am doing these days & I am so worried that whatever I do (with the best of intentions of course) it just makes things worse.
I am worried if I 'go with the flow' we will just carry on as we are with inconsistent & rubbish naps b/c I am getting the timing wrong all the time, although I think half the trouble is that I am constantly clock watching & worried about fitting it into the day rather than watching him & when HE needs to sleep.
He has pretty much cried all morning today & was rubbing his eyes at 8.40am, & then again at 8.50 so I took him up to bed b/c quite honestly, I'd had enough of the crying. :-\ Asleep at 9.03am. 4hrs A.
So if I do what you suggest Shiv, - do I just let him sleep as long as he wants/needs at one or both naps ???
I am so scared of falling back into the early wake, early nap, early bed cycle again & if I let him sleep as long as he wants in the AM, he will use this nap to catch up on his night sleep & continue to EW. Or should I not worry about that with 4hrs A in the AM?
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Many *HUGS* Claire!
It's no wonder you are tired - please take a break and see if DH can deal with O this w/e :)
I am so scared of falling back into the early wake, early nap, early bed cycle again & if I let him sleep as long as he wants in the AM, he will use this nap to catch up on his night sleep & continue to EW. Or should I not worry about that with 4hrs A in the AM?
I'd say yes! He's still EW anyway, so if Tracey is right, he'll sleep more at night if he's slept better in the day :) It's worth a try. :-*
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although I think half the trouble is that I am constantly clock watching & worried about fitting it into the day rather than watching him & when HE needs to sleep.
Honestly hun i think you need to let this go. I do think that is the problem half the time as you are capping naps before they are restorative or putting him to bed before he's ready because you are trying to fit it into the day.
So if I do what you suggest Shiv, - do I just let him sleep as long as he wants/needs at one or both naps
Personally i would allow as much day sleep as you can get out of him with it getting silly. Let him sleep as long as he will and then give him a good A time to bed. Even if bedtime ends up at 8pm that would be fine with me because at least it will push the EW out a bit. Obviously you want want him sleeping past a certain point in the evening.
I wonder though if he does need the longer A times to sleep well but needs good naps to cope with the longer A times long term?
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Hi Sweetheart,
I want to say 'Happy Birthday' but bless you it doesn't seem to be so far :'(. I haven't PM'd you because I want the Ladies to also see my thinking:
As I've been with you for months now I know that Oliver has been here before. You allow him to catch up, he has a few days feeling a little better then you're right back in the mess. I can't help but think that every time you and Oliver get to this stage he is so unhappy that you are forced into going back. The one thing you haven't tried is to push through after getting to this stage. I can't help but wonder if he needs to go a little further for his body to surrender and finally take the sleep he needs ??? If I was to make any change I would stick to the A times but allow him a longer am nap of 2 hours to help him catch up and try and counteract the OT
Do you wonder the same thing Hon ??? Ladies: Could I be right about this or way off ???
You were advised that it has taken other LO's 4 weeks of extreme OT to finally get with the routine. It hasn't been that long yet, so what if you are once again stopping shortly before it's going to work. Then the last fortnight you've commited to trying to make it work and Oliver getting those A times into his head has been for nothing.
I'm sorry what I'm saying here is contradictory Darling. Like I say it's just because we've been writing for so long and I see everything coming full circle time and time again. I desperately feel for you and DH and of course Oliver. I feel he is desperate for consistency and the only way he's ever going to get it is to push through. You are so commited Claire, you're amazing, I would have had a nervous breakdown by now...you can rest assured you have tried everything else to no avail. I honestly don't think you're missing anything by observing Oliver. I think he is a gorgeous but tricky baby who was always going to be harder to get on a routine than most.
Big Hugs to you Honey..and Oliver.xxx.
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As I've been with you for months now I know that Oliver has been here before. You allow him to catch up, he has a few days feeling a little better then you're right back in the mess. I can't help but think that every time you and Oliver get to this stage he is so unhappy that you are forced into going back. The one thing you haven't tried is to push through after getting to this stage. I can't help but wonder if he needs to go a little further for his body to surrender and finally take the sleep he needs
OK given that PP knows you guys so well I will admit that this was my first instinct but I didn't want to say it because you are so upset.
I do think pushing through and sticking to the routine is the BEST thing to do. Even the last few days has been a bit up and down as he had a one nap day and then he pooed yesterday and the first nap couldn't be extended so they could also be contributing factors.
I guess my thinking in telling you to follow him for a week was to help you see it is no better and then maybe you'd feel better about pushing through the OT as you'd know you've covered all bases.
I would stick with 4.15 A time first thing, nap for 1.5 hours at least, longer if wake up was silly but wake in time to be able to fit in a CN and proper A time to bed. And accept the days may be long and bedtime later than you'd like for a while but as he gets used to the A time that will pull back.
HTH xx
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Claire, so sorry you're having a tough time with this again :(
I do think that this:
I wonder though if he does need the longer A times to sleep well but needs good naps to cope with the longer A times long term?
And this:
You were advised that it has taken other LO's 4 weeks of extreme OT to finally get with the routine. It hasn't been that long yet, so what if you are once again stopping shortly before it's going to work. Then the last fortnight you've commited to trying to make it work and Oliver getting those A times into his head has been for nothing.
are very good points and something to keep in mind.
Hope you have a lovely birthday and get a bit of a break over the weekend x
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Oops, post crossed with Shiv. Totally agree with everything she has said x
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Hi hun :)
I think you are right Vicky - I do need to see it through this time, b/c yes, we HAVE been here before. And it isn't getting any better. And we need to get ourselves through it & onto a routine that will actually work. I need to stop panicking & stick with it don't I?
So I have messed up a bit today b/c I backtracked & PD at 4hrs A & not 4.5hrs like I'd originally planned. I guess not so bad, its only 15mins earlier than yesterday. He went to sleep very quickly & is still asleep 2hrs later. I will go & wake him up now, & hope to God I can get him down for a short CN later on, maybe 3.30-4pm. If I can get 15-20mins out of him that would see us to a 6.30pm BT & it doesn't make the day so stupidly long & maybe, just maybe we have a chance of pulling that wakeup later.
Shiv - Agree about stopping clock watching. I will do my best to just watch him & not worry so much about fitting it into his day. Though he really does need to be in bed at 7pm latest today b/c we have a meal booked at 7.30pm tonight for my birthday. ;)
Thanks so much all of you for your continued help & support. I'm going to try & enjoy the rest of my day.xx
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Sounds like a plan lovely xx
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Hi Honey,
I don't think 4 hours is disastrous...in fact considering his 2 hour nap it sounds like you made a good call ;). That should go someway to helping him feel better and hopefully make getting the cat nap easier.
Stick with it Sweetheart. We all know how hard it is when our LO's are unhappy as it's the opposite of what we want for them so badly. Try and focus on the long term goal and try and and enjoy your Birthday meal. Once he's in bed tonight there's nothing to worry about untill morning! ;) So raise a glass and toast your Birthday and your total dedication to Oliver. I hope you and Stuart can emjoy being a couple without the parental strain.
Big Hugs.x.
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Thanks hun. I agree 4hrs isnt a disaster, just a bit backwards from where I wanted to be today. He really did need it though.
Ladies....I have tried my hardest to observe him for tired signs this afternoon & have struggled TBH. He has been playing well but over the last hour or so has been lolling all over the floor & keeps arching his back etc. He's rubbed his eyes a couple of times & I have tried different activities with him to make sure he's not bored so I've put him down at 3.10pm, 4hrs 10 A time. It took him til 3.40pm to go to sleep so I clearly PD too early again.
I think the difficulty I'm having is b/c he constantly appears tired/displays tired signs & its very difficult to tell if they are real 'I need to sleep now' signs or just 'I feel a bit tired out at the moment b/c you keep messing with my routine', IYSWIM?
So folks my next dilemma is how long to let him sleep for ??? Do I go for the shorter CN of 15-20mins & PD at 6.30pm to keep the day that bit shorter, OR go for the longer CN of 30mins & do 3hrs A time to BT? I would like to achieve 7pm BT but if doing that stretches his day to the point where he sleeps a shorter night then IMO its not worth it. I'd rather PD at 6.30 & have him sleep 11hrs+ than PD at 7 & have him sleep 10hrs. We can get to 7pm BT in a few days when his WU gets later, right?
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Morning ladies.
So yesterday went:
Wake: 5am
Nap: 9-11
CN: 3.40 - 4.00
BT: 6.55 (PD at 6.30 but it seems after a 20min nap that was too early)
Today - started stirring at 4.40am & I nearly cried......5am all went quiet...... & up for the day at 6.45am - 11h 50 night sleep. :o :o :o He must've really needed it.
So, as for today - what do I do?
Its not feasible to repeat yesterday exactly as I'd need to do a 14hr day which makes for an 8.45pm BT. I am prepared to do a slightly later BT but I really don't want it that late. Ideally 7.30pm latest. I know I could cap the CN at 10mins to make the last A even shorter but I'm still not sure it will be short *enough* to fit into a 12.5hr day.
Also if he's had a better night, then he might not be tired enough after 4hrs A to a) fall asleep and b) give a 2hr nap as yesterday. I think yesterday was just catch up. So..... should we be straight back to 4.15 A or even 4.5hrs A as this is actually what I was meant to have done yesterday ???
And if I do 4.25/4.5hrs A, this puts the nap at around 11am, if he sleeps 2hrs again then he needs 4.5hrs A time after the nap, this puts CN at 5.30pm. Would I be better doing a 10min CN and 7.30pm BT or just shoot for EBT at say 6pm? I really don't care if his WU is earlier than today, the most important thing is to eliminate the OT, and if EBT is a better way to go than stretching the day then I am happy to do it.
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Morning Honey,
Super night ;) Rather than thinking of it as a catch up night let's think of it as the start of the beginning of Oliver falling into place :). What to do today ??? IIWM I'd take the opportunity to do 4.15 A time or 4.5 if he's happy and seems to be able to go that far, he should be happier after such a good night. Then after that you really can't know what to do untill you see how long he naps.
If he has a good 2 hour nap it seems you'd need to go for a 1 nap day with EBT..don't you think ??? That probably scares you but it would be a great result :D.
Otherwise a shorter nap would have to be followed by a short cat nap but you're going to have to play it by ear depending on just how short his nap is...I see the predicament :-\. However a later BT with 2 naps just might get you a geat WU in the morning.
Would you say that a shorter A time to bed than usual would definetely have an adverse effect if he's starting to fit into the routine ??? It's hard to strike the balance between the right A times and not pushing too far when he's starting to do well.
It doesn't seem right the a great WU brings a different challenge ::) GRRRRRRRRRRRR.
(X)
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Great night! What about doing 4.5hrs A time but capping the nap at 1.5hrs so there's time to fit in a catnap?
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I would do 4.15 A time, cap the nap at 1.5 and then CN and later bedtime.
I honestly would not do EBT as I think after the long nap at Grannys the other day is where the OT really started to set in.
I would stick to the plan of long nap then CN then later bedtime for a few days. You may have to accept an 8pm bedtime though but that does not make for a longer day than he normally has.
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Thanks for the input ladies.
KDee - Such a deliberation to cap the nap at 1.5hrs. It frightens me more than EBT! It would still put the catnap at 5/5.15pm - am scared it would be too late & he would just refuse. And if I attempt & he refuses then it will end up pushing BT later by the time we have got him up & got him ready for bed.
Vicki - I agree if I let him sleep & he does a 2hr+ nap really the only option is 1 nap. This is what happened the other day when MIL had him, but I think we did BT too late & we got EW the next day so I'd have to be REALLY careful with this.
WRT a shorter A to BT - I don't think its a problem if he's already done 2x 4-4.5hr A times in the day. But TBH I think that at this stage its just making his day too long. He is awake for 12hrs every day - he is going to get exhausted & this could harm our nights as much as anything else. We've been here before & 14hr days are just not sustainable long term.
My biggest worry this AM (Vicki - WRT thinking of the long night as him getting used to the new routine, rather than 'catch up' ) is that he is already yawning, only 2.5hrs after WU. I fear pushing til 11am is going to result in an OT nap. :-\ I am going to stay with it but think I will probably go in the middle with 4.15 A time, unless he seems like he can go the 4.5hrs.
I'll update tonight with how it went.x
ETA: Shiv - just saw your post. 4.15 is what we'll do. Hmm still undecided on the capping of the nap but we'll see.
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He was asleep at 11am, 4h 15 A time. If I did cap at 1.5hrs, does 4hrs A sound about right (he did 4.5 after a 2hr nap yesterday) so CN at 4.30pm? And how long for? If we do 30mins to give him enough day sleep (2hrs total) then he will need 3-3.5hrs A to BT which puts BT at 8-8.30pm, I do worry that is a bit too late really ???
If I cap the CN even shorter at say 10-15mins he may do something like 2.5-2.75hrs A after it (this is a total guess of course), which would put BT at 7.15-7.30pm, HOWEVER he will only have had 1h 40-45 total day sleep which is on the low side for a 13.5/13.75hr day isn't it ??? Which is worse ???
Ladies I think we are almost at the stage where we need to keep pushing the nap out & go with EBT until we are at 5hrs A b/c writing this I realise there just isn't enough time to fit it all in. Is that more sensible in the long run than stretching his day??? I just get the feeling he will get more OT with a longer day than with 1 nap & EBT while we push it out. I want to do whatever we can to make sure we can stay with this plan.
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I think the problem you are going to find with that is you then need him to do a 13.5 hour night (based on 4.5 A time and 2 hour nap and 4 hours A time to bed) and I just think that is not feasible.
So yes you could do 2 hour nap now and he'll be up at 1pm but then bed will be 5.30pm if you give him 4.5 A time? So if he does an 11 hour night you are looking at 4.30am wake up? Or even 5.30 if he does a 12 hour night. KWIM? And i think given that his day only consists of 8.5-9 hours A time he is not realistically going to sleep more than 11.5 hours.
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Would that still apply if he slept say 2.5hrs & we did a 5hr A time to BT so 6/6.30pm BT? Or is that just going to cause OT?
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You'd have to judge but if you don't think he would be able to handle 4.5-5 hours after an 11.45 night I think he would be pushed to manage it after a 2.5 nap given how you are finding he is so sensitive to OT. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying don't be surprised and be willing to accept a wake up 11 hours later after a day like that. So do a 6pm bedtime but don't be surprised if you get a 5am wake up.
How often would he do a 2.5 nap for you?
If you are thinking that it really is better to just do a one nap day and EBT then I'd start with 4.5 A time tomorrow and get it upto 5 hours within 2 weeks. KWIM?
I'm not a big fan of EBTs (can you tell?!) although neither of my girls tacked on. They both do 11.5 hours ish so I keep the day at least 12.5 and always get to a proper bedtime or else it would be a cycle of EBTs then EWs then a really long day and so on. Not worth it to me. I prefer the later bedtime and proper wake up. Both of mine need good long A times through out the day to sleep well too. So if they only got 8.5/9 hours A time in a day there is no way they would be tired enough to sleep longer than normal at night. So you have to weigh that up too.
{{{hugs}}} Such a rough transition. We have that with dropping the CN which is why we did cold turkey to 1 nap!!
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Hmmm - yea I see what you are saying. It is a big risk to do EBT esp if he's not had enough A time over the course of the whole day. I would accept whatever he throws at us though, of course.
I also totally agree that if we go with 1 nap & EBT then we would definitely need to get the A time increased to 4.5hrs & then up to 5hrs over the next couple of weeks. That was my aim anyway.
I would honestly say if we didn't have OT hanging round our necks all the time then he would handle a 4.5-5hrs A in the AM fine. He may have done it today but I didn't dare to push him b/c he'd shown definite tired signs.
Gosh it is a very tough call to make. You never know he might make it for me & wake up at the 1.5hr mark anyway!
One last Q though - if I do the CN - how long do I give? I'd be happier just doing 15mins with a 7.15/7.30PM BT, but then his total day sleep is less than 2hrs - which like you said the other day, is being a bit unfair on him. But if I do 30mins I am worried he'll still be awake well after 8pm & even with 8pm BT this is making a 13.25hr day which I don't like to make a habit of really. I have done far too many long days & I know from experience that if I can keep his day to 12.5hrs tops then I can often get an 11.5hr night if the naps are timed right.
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LOL decision made - he woke himself at 1.5hrs. CN it is!
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but then his total day sleep is less than 2hrs - which like you said the other day, is being a bit unfair on him.
I was refering to the day when you did a short am nap and then woke him at 1 hour into his PM nap. You have to make sure ONE of the nap is restorative enough to maintain him.
So a 15 minute CN should be fine and then judge if it needs to be longer x
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You have to make sure ONE of the nap is restorative enough to maintain him.
Ah - got you now! ;)
We had a lovely afternoon at the beach & came home at 4.30pm (hoping for a car nap on the way home as he'd had 4hrs A & lots of fresh air & yesterday he did a CN 4.5hrs after a 2hr nap) . He didn't sleep. ::) He was rubbing his eyes & yawning but seemed too awake, though not in an OT way. We even drove to the next motorway junction past our house & back again to see if he'd go off, b/c of the yawns. Got home at 5.15pm. Of course b/c we were late home, we couldn't do BT as early as he probably needed b/c he hadn't had any tea, so I had to shovel some into him quickly & get him ready for bed. He was asleep at 6.20pm, 5hr 50 A time after a 1.5hr nap. Siigh. :-\ He's woken at 7.20pm crying & again about 8.45pm. He's OT again. :-\
I think we in an UT/OT loop. Yesterday was catch up for sure, & that's why we got the long night. He was better rested this morning, so although he was tired for his nap (asleep in 5mins) he wasn't tired *enough* to sleep a long nap of 2hrs+. I probably should have pushed 4.5hrs A before his nap (hindsight is a wonderful thing eh? ::) - I thought I'd done the right thing this morning b/c he was giving off tired signs & he fell asleep quickly for once! ). He was super happy this afternoon & his eye bags looked so much better, so I was confident he was caught up on his sleep. Of course this meant he wasn't tired enough for a CN, even though he only did a 1.5hr nap. And of course then this means he goes to bed early, and OT.
So tomorrow I already know he is going to be tired in the morning, and will probably need to sleep after 4-4.25hrs A. And if I let him he'll do a whopper nap to catch up & so it carries on.
So.........I think even if he wakes early &/or he is super tired tomorrow I need to increase his A to 4.5hrs. Would you agree ???
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Sounds like a lovely afternoon.
I really think in all honestly Claire I would do 4.5 A time tomorrow and for the next 3 days then 4.45 for 3 days then 5 hours and just get to one nap. I honestly think pushing through the OT over a week-10days is going to be much less painful that these awful OT/UT loops. I really think he isn't able for 2 naps anymore without you needing to do a really really long day. KWIM? And TBH once you start upping the A time beyond 4.5 there really isn't time for a CN anyways.
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I am actually glad you have said this. I think I have finally come to realise this is what I need to do & so I will just have to go with it. Its not going to be easy, esp b/c I am working 3 days next week & naps are out of my control but I will keep at it & hope & pray that we get there. Agree that once A = 4.5hrs+ , CN isn't really an option, as today has proved! So EBT it is.
Am pretty scared of this esp with the clock change coming up in 1 week aaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!!
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Definately is the way to go. Like today he should have been wrecked for his nap after being out at the beach all afternoon and he just wasn't at all!
I actually think he'll handle it better than you think. Just push through the OT!!
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I totally agree. But Claire, you have started him off more gently with the longer A time this time round instead of the giant leap, so let's hope this helps him.
Come on Oliver you gorgeous little monkey! Let's do this 1 nap thing and let Mammy and Daddy sleep better too ;)
Nitey Nite.
((X))
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Come on Oliver you gorgeous little monkey! Let's do this 1 nap thing and let Mammy and Daddy sleep better too
I second that :-*
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Thanks ladies. We had a 5.30am WU here. Kind of expected even though I live in hope that EBT will give us a longer night one day!!! We are ploughing on ahead with the 4.5hrs A today.
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No advice just wanted to say I LOVE your new pics :)
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Oh poo - another wonky nap day. he has been rolling & lolling all over the floor all morning and I KNEW he was tired. Still I went ahead & did the 4.5hrs A. He's woken after 1h 15 mins. Siigh. Its going to be a VERY long day, esp if he refuses a PM nap again.
Ladies it really does frustrate me that EVERY SINGLE TIME we do a 1 nap day we get EW the following day & an OT nap. Siigh. :'(
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Argh!!! he went back to sleep (yay!) & now I'm having a trauma trying to decide whether to wake him at the 2hr mark! Its only midday, so if I do wake him & he refuses CN then he will have a good 6hrs to EBT at 6pm & then of course he'll be OT & wake early for nursery tomorrow (which I really don't want or need) BUT if I don't wake him & he sleeps 2.5hrs+ & then does EBT at 6-6.30pm then we will most probably get EW anyway!!! Argh!!!
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Oh poo - another wonky nap day. he has been rolling & lolling all over the floor all morning and I KNEW he was tired. Still I went ahead & did the 4.5hrs A. He's woken after 1h 15 mins. Siigh. Its going to be a VERY long day, esp if he refuses a PM nap again.
Ladies it really does frustrate me that EVERY SINGLE TIME we do a 1 nap day we get EW the following day & an OT nap. Siigh. :'(
Oliver a J are living parallel lives! ;)
This is what happened to us a few days ago. :( J was finally on an awesome schedule (for a few weeks)! Even though it was still 2 naps, it was working nicely. Since he was finally waking at a decent hour I decided to go for the 1 nap. That completely backfired and we've had EWs (again) for the past 4 mornings. UGH!!! I'm about to post another thread for help.
Claire, LOVE your new pics! He is such a cutie!
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What did you do Claire?
I'd have woke at midday, did CN at 4.30 for 15-20 minutes then 7.15ish bedtime x
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I let him sleep b/c every time I wake him he is never getting the sleep he needs, even though I know it can sometimes backfire. He did 2h 15mins, woke at 12.15pm. I'm doing an early tea & getting all his BT things ready & then we're heading out in the car at around 4.45pm in the hopes that sometime around 5pm ish he might take a wee CN. Thats 4h 45 A time. If he does even just 5-10mins max it should be enough to tide us over for a 7pm BT. If he doesn't sleep, we'll be home just before 5.30pm in time to get him into bed for 6.
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Hope it worked!
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No CN. A few yawns & eye rubs & a glazed look at around 4h 45 A time but that was it. No surprise really is it? TBH after yesterday, I don't think he'd have had a C/N even if I had woken him up at the 2hr mark. He is sooooo difficult to C/N - has been for months now.
So.....we had to go with EBT at 6pm. Aaarrrrgggghhhh - I am a wee bit scared about what tomorrow will bring, though I am anticipating it will be in the 5am hour, so as not to get my hopes up that he will do the magical 12hrs. Not really what I wanted for his day at nursery but it can't be changed now.
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Yeah I'd prefer for 5am as that is reasonable and anything else is a bonus!
What will nursery do tomorrow?
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They say they will do whatever I ask them, but sometimes he does go down a lot later than I ask. I will have to make a judgement based on how he sleeps overnight.
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Will you have a chance of a CN tomorrow or is it too hard with work?
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If he wakes super early I will ask nursery to try for a C/N before DH collects him at 5pm. We only live a 5minute drive away from the nursery so there's barely time for a car C/N. And I don't get home from work til 5.30pm.
I don't want to rush him in this transition & want to make sure he can really cope with these long A times, but honestly, are we just dragging this out doing it this way? I feel like gradual is a better approach for O with how sensitive he is to OT (being Touchy) but it is making it awfully tricky, esp with the EW & outside care.
If we get a really decent night, would we just be better to push his A time a bit & go for the 4.75 or 5hr A & hope pray for a really decent nap followed by EBT? I reckon I could just about get him down for 6pm if needed, but no earlier.
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I'd say if you got a 6am wake up you could do 4.75 A time, fingers crossed for a 2 hour + nap then bed at 6pm ish and that would work for sure. I think the fact he is doing 2 hour + nap means he is more ready for one nap than you think. It took M about 3-4 weeks to lengthen her nap from 1.5 -2.5/3 hours..
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Yea the 2hr naps are good. Usually what happens (this is 2-1 nap attempt no. 3) is we get a few days of fab naps then they shorten & shorten, then his nights lengthen (b/c he's exhausted) & then it happens all over again. But a lot of the time we've perhaps stretched his day too long & he's done 5-5.5hrs either side of his nap. Maybe that is a bit too much just yet.
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I think keeping on upping the A time will help with that issue though. Because chance are the long nights are making him really well rested and he could be doing with 5 hours A time to keep it all together and so on.
So 4.75 tomorrow?
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Well last night he woke crying at 7.40pm & again at 8.25pm & 9.10pm. Then woke at 5am chattering & shouting. At 5.20 all went quiet again & he woke for the day at 5.33am. So he had 11h 10mins sleep altogether. OK, but I was secretly hoping he might do a solid 11.5hr night, YK?
So, with a 5.30am WU this makes his nap 10am again, or 10.15 if I do the 4.75hrs A. I am a bit worried about his nap starting so early in the day b/c every single day this means he has a long afternoon to BT, ends up OT by BT & does a shorter night.
WWYD today (bearing in mind he's at nursery so he can't be AP'd for a CN)???
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Hey Claire, sounds like you're nearly there with the one nap! You just need to keep pushing the nap on slowly to stop that OT at bedtime and to try and get your BT and EW moved on a bit too. So I would keep moving the nap and do 4.75hrs today. I think catnaps might be a lost cause with O! But he seems to be coping really well :)
Best if luck for today x
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I'd do 4.75 today too and I would try and get a CN when you pick him up, even 10 minutes to get him through to bedtime without being crazy OT. Can DH drive the long way home?
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LOL there is no long way home!!!! One route only!!!! I will be calling nursery to see when/how he slept & make a decision from there.
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He did 2hrs from 10.20 - 12.20. So that was 4h 50mins A time this morning. Do you think it is feasible to just go with 6pm BT? I can ask DH to take him for a little drive but if he doesn't sleep then that's our only option, right?
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Can bedtime be any earlier? can DH get him at 5pm get him home and straight to bed? give him a quick bowl of porridge or something and straight to bed for 5.30?
My gut tells me 6pm is too late for an EBT after such a long A time and my instinct is to get him to take a quick CN and get a proper bedtime. I fear he'll be up even earlier tomorrow from OT if he has to be stretched to 6pm.
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I have that same worry too. This is where we get caught out every single time. B/C of the EW we have a long A to BT every single day. He gets OT & the already short nights get even shorter.
What can I do about this though??? If I felt sure I could get a CN every day then I'd readily cap the AM nap at 1.5hrs every time. But he even refused a CN after a 1.5hr nap the other day, so there seems little point in capping it, as I am just depriving him of the sleep he needs & creating an even longer A time to BT IYSWIM?
Are we just going to crash out with awful OT yet again?
I can't even reach DH to see if he'll do even earlier BT as he's driving home right now & will be just about to pick DS up. By the time he's home it will probably be around 5.10pm, I'm not sure he'd be able to get him into bed by 5.30pm. & I'll already be on my way home by then.
Siigh.
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How did bedtime go in the end? x
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Was hoping you got your CN and can have slightly later bedtime and a chance of a decent wake up and one nap day tomorrow xx
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Hi ladies. DH actually took him for a drive b/c DS rubbed his eyes as soon as he got in the car. But he didn't sleep. They got home at 5.30pm & we got him ready for bed straight away. He was in bed at 5.50pm & asleep at 6.05pm.
Ladies is there anything else I can do to help our WU situation when he won't take the CN? We have the clocks changing on Saturday & our current 5-5.30am WU is going to become 4-4.30am. We really don't need that & I am getting rather scared.
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Nothing really hun.
But on the day after the clocks go forward if you get a silly wake up then that next day is definately a long nap and CN day.
I do think you are going to NEED a CN on those days when you are going to have 5.30 + A time to bed though.
where is he tomorrow?
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But on the day after the clocks go forward if you get a silly wake up then that next day is definately a long nap and CN day.
Ah & we should manage to achieve that shouldn't we b/c his nap should fall really early in the day. I will definitely wake him up at the 2hr mark on that day. Didn't think of that!
I do think you are going to NEED a CN on those days when you are going to have 5.30 + A time to bed though.
I see what you are saying - how the heck do I get one though??? Some days he'll take it easily, but other days he won't entertain it for a minute. I suppose all I can do is offer him the chance, & if he refuses, get him in bed as quickly as I can. Do you think I need to keep that PM A time at 5hrs max???
Tomorrow he's at his grandparents for the day. Would you say I go with 4.75hrs A again? I'm getting a bit worried I pushed too much too soon & really don't want to push too far tomorrow & get an OT nap. Depending on WU/nap times/length, if he needs a CN I will ask grandma to try putting him down at her house, or not to sit in the back of the car with him on the way home (she always does, bless her) and there's his chance to take a CN.
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Claire is there any mileage in going back to am cn then longer pm, and pushing BT out a bit? X
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I don't know Charli. Is that just as a short term means to get us back to a later WU & BT again??? Or are you saying this b/c you don't think he's ready for the final push yet ???
If I did it, what times do I go for? Esp b/c he is now waking rather early??? I always wanted to go with a 10min CN at around 10am & a 2hr nap from 12.30-2.30, but I always struggled to get there with the really early waking.
Ladies I am not saying I am going to do this, b/c I am worried that switching things up on him YET AGAIN is just going to confuse matters even more, but it does make me wonder a bit b/c at least I can guarantee I'll get both naps. :-\
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Claire, when he wakes at 5.30am does he refuse to go back to sleep or do you think if you stuck with treating it as a NW it you could get that EW fixed and a later WU. this would help fix your day if you could get it... :-\
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I treat 5-6am as a NW generally and do whatever it takes to get them back off :P
Perhaps if you reverted to short am long pm you might be able to push back BT and then WU, and be on more of an even keel to go to one nap? Maybe try it for a week? Then reevaluate? I personally don't find 10 mins is long enough in the am. I would start with 20-30 mins about 3.5 hours a time, then aim for a decent one about 3 hours later. But that is based on MY baby, who is quite high sleep needs and doesn't tolerate long a times. On 2 nap days she generally does:
A 7am
S 10-10.20
S 1.30-3.30
Bed 7.30-8
One nap is more like 7-7 with 2-2.5 hour nap around 11.30am.
Hth xx
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I think the issue Charli is he is just not ready to nap that early on. Is that right Clare?
I think you need to cap the long am nap on the days where you are going to need a CN. So today I would have got nursery to wake him at 1.5 hours and then i think he would have napped on the long way home.
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One nap is more like 7-7 with 2-2.5 hour nap around 11.30am.
Yes this is what worked for us, and the first thing I had to do (a few months back) was treat the EW as NW, push out that AM nap and Zac came right. I think as long as you have the 5.30 WU you cant really get to 1 nap without reinforcing it by needing mega EBT IYKWIM?
Ohhh I see Shiv...:-\ tricky
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Its tricky because with a normal wake up EBT is fine but O doesn't consistently tack on. So 11.5 hours is the most you can depend on really. So 6pm bedtime is likely a 5/5.30am wake up. Which is why I think on day where you get early wake ups I think you are going to have to get two naps in either by capping the first and getting a CN however you can get it or else doing short am-long pm. But i think to try a one nap day and EBT is going to cause the most problems overall.
I think Claire has tried to get him back to sleep but unless he resettles himself he will not go back over. Same for extending naps.
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I think Claire has tried to get him back to sleep but unless he resettles himself he will not go back over. Same for extending naps.
This is right. when he wakes early we just leave him to it in his cot in the dark. I don't go in b/c he will & does expect to get up. Sometimes, he will chatter a little then go back to sleep for a while, but it doesn't happen often. We don't go to him or get him up until 6am at the absolute earliest. Sadly no amount of APing will get my LO off to sleep. And trust me we tried when we had the 6 month stint of EW before. ::)
But i think to try a one nap day and EBT is going to cause the most problems overall.
This really worries me. B/C this is what we've done again today. What choice do I have though??? I wish someone could get us out of this hell hole. Seriously I cannot wait for my child not to need a nap at all anymore. How awful to wish the time away, but the 3-2 nap transition took 6 months to put right & I CANNOT face another 6 months of EW & messy naps. I NEED to get this sorted.
Charli - I like your routine, but Shiv is right - I already know that my DS won't go down after just 3hrs A in the morning. And he can do more like 3.5hrs A after a 30min nap. I do actually think I *might* be able to get him down after 3.5hrs A for his morning nap, but I really would need to keep the nap fairly brief in order to have him sleep for his PM nap AND give him enough A time to BT.
Shiv - I think if we are carrying on down the long AM nap route (which I will certainly do for a little while longer at least) then I may have to concede & cap the AM nap at 1.5hrs. I really don't like it though, b/c if he still refuses the CN anyway, his BT will need to be even earlier & his OT will worsen. Its a very risky strategy for me. Also, do you think I would be better sticking with a set time for the nap rather than a set amount of A? The fact that his nap started at 10am the last couple of days isn't helping our situation at all - as Sara said, this combined with EBT is just reinforcing the EW.
The only time we've actually had decent WU's in the last few weeks was when we got rid of his OT by doing 2 naps again. So maybe it IS what he needs. I really can't keep trying for PM naps in the car every day long-term, its costing me a FORTUNE in fuel.
Thing is, I need to do whatever I can to push his WU later ATM don't I? B/c while he carries on waking early, we can't really give him the EBT that he actually needs to cope with the 1 nap transition. Oh ladies, am I really best to proceed with long AM nap??? If I revert back to short AM, how do I do it? Just go cold turkey with set nap times & hope that he gets it within a couple of weeks ??? As this will make him OT to start with too, if I push him til 10am nap & cap it right back to 10mins.
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Claire, FWIW I think you're best sticking to the plan. It's going well, you're getting great naps, and yes there's some OT at bedtime but that's to be expected during transitions like this. If you keep at it, pushing the nap on by 15mins every few days then you'll soon be able to push on BT and wake times. And if you can get a catnap in any day then all the better.
He does seem like a boy who needs consistency so I'd be afraid changing again would mess things up :-\
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Claire Honey,
I agree with Kdee ;) Stick with it Hon..please (with the greatest respect) don't change it up again. The great naps are a sign that Oliver is getting with the programme and I believe that every day he does that (uncapped) his OT will improve and because of that his night times will improve in turn. 'The more he sleeps the more he will be able to sleep' (yes The parrot' returns LOL ::)) Even if 6pm BT becomes the short term norm and he sleep untill 5am or 5.30 :o :o :o I know God forbid..but if it he consistently sleeps 11 hrs minimum at night plus 2 hour nap then that's 13 hours which is pretty good and I do think that would be enough for you to be able to push on and get the day later once the poor Bubba feels better. I guess it's all about keeping the faith through the wobbles ;).
(X)
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Thanks ladies. I did say earlier that changing things up was a worry for me too (don't know if you saw that). I'd really rather just work him towards 1 nap but I am so, so frightened that its all going to come crashing down again & we will be getting up at 4am come next week. So please understand why its a tempting thought.
He's had a little WU at 9pm tonight, but no crying at 7/8pm like last night. So here's hoping tomorrow's WU isn't too horrendous & we can carry on with the plan.
Ladies do I keep with the 4.75hrs tomorrow? We made a bit of a big jump as we only did 1 day at 4.5hrs before pushing on again, b/c I had fears he wouldn't nap very long at nursery today so I asked them to do 4.75hrs.
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I'd stick to 4.75 A time. I think given that a CN is difficult to get you are best getting to one nap as soon as possible within reason obviously!!!
Honestly in 2 weeks you'll be wondering what all this fuss was about xxxx
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I really hope you're right!!!
He woke at 5am, chattered/dozed on & off til 5.15am & then shouting. Had a quiet 5mins from 5.30-5.35 but I'm not sure if he actually went to sleep or not. We got up at 6am. So bit unsure what to class as his wakeup for today. I think it was 5.15am. Siigh.
It seems he is not going to extend his nights, doesn't it?
He's just gone off with grandma. I've told her to do 10am nap, but wake him after 1.5hrs & then try again for a 30min nap from 3.30-4pm. I can't believe I am having to cap his nap when he is doing 4.75hrs A time before it. Is that a really bad idea or the only option for our current situation???
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I think you need to get him through to proper bedtime tonight otherwise your option is let him sleep as long as he wants and then another EBT so if he sleeps 2.5 hours to 12.30 then he really would need to be in bed at 5.30 at the latest which I think is getting silly KWIM?
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Morning Claire and everyone,
Shiv: Sam was younger than Oliver and going 6 hours after a 45 minute nap in the early stages of the transition...is there no way Oliver can go longer ??? I'm concerned that he's finally extending his naps and if they're capped he's not being allowed to catch up which is what he desperately needs. If his naps extend then his nights should follow suit shortly after. I have a feeling he is going to refuse that cat nap always, now he's at 4.75 A time.
Hey Claire, I PM'd you sweetie...as always ;).
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Maeve was always able to manage 5.5 hours at this age which is whenwe switched cold turkey to one nap. I did though AP a CN every 4-5 days for 3-4 weeks just to keep OT at bay. My concern is Claire is pretty sure if she pushes the A times too much he will be in an OT mess.
If you did think it was worth the push Claire I would cap the nap today and make sure you get a CN (give a really really decent A time after 1.5....so more like 4.15/4.30pm (you need him to sleep so slightly OT is your friend here) and then 7pm ish bedtime. With a decent bedtime hopefully you'll get a more reasonable wake tomorrrow and then you could definately push to 5 hours either side of the nap. And if he does a 2 hour nap or more then you are set for at least a 12 hour day.
My concern with the way it is going is you will get to one nap but your day could be 5.30-5.30 with all the EBTs and then you'll have to start shifting everything which could take ages. KWIM?
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My concern with the way it is going is you will get to one nap but your day could be 5.30-5.30 with all the EBTs and then you'll have to start shifting everything which could take ages. KWIM?
This is absolutely my concern too Shiv. And I could cry b/c I've just had enough of getting up so early.
Vicky I totally know your thoughts re: why we need to let him sleep & boy do I want to today b/c his eyes are red-rimmed & he has huge bags again. But I fear that if I do, Shiv is right, we will get CN refusal & be stuck in an EW, EBT cycle. And the only way to get out of that is to keep on pushing his AM A time anyway.
Oh I am so torn. I want to let him sleep in the hopes he'll tag onto his night, BUT on past experience I just don't think its going to happen. He only ever tags on when he gets so OT he crashes. So I think today capping the nap is worth a shot, even though he is probably going to be OT with it. It might give us the nudge we need to help shift the nap back nearer to 11am.
Shiv - I will ask Grandma to watch him carefully & decide when to put him down - somewhere between 4-4.5hrs A. How long do I let him sleep? If he goes down for a CN at 3.30pm I could let him do 30mins & BT at 7pm. But if he goes down nearer 4pm if I do 30mins he'd need a 7.30pm BT which makes his day 14.5hours. I can't see this is going to help things either. 15mins?? But then thats still only 1h 45mins sleep for an almost 14hr day.
Oh I am so lost ladies. Why is my boy so tricky??? All the other folks on here seem to just switch to 1 nap & it works.
PS Shiv - lasttime I followed O's cues in the AM for a 1 nap day, he didn't actually show he was tired until 5.5hrs A. And he did a fab nap. But combining that with 5hrs A on the other side of his nap was too much & he struggled the next day. I do wonder if I could get him onto a 5.5hr A time, 2hr nap, 4.5hr A to BT he might do a 12hr night. Eventually
Wake: 7
Nap: 12.30-2.30
BT: 7-7.30
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If he goes down for a CN at 3.30pm I could let him do 30mins & BT at 7pm. But if he goes down nearer 4pm if I do 30mins he'd need a 7.30pm BT which makes his day 14.5hours.
I think that is fne for 1 day when you look at the overall goal. Honestly I don't think you'll get a CN before 4pm at the earlier. I would be careful of using his cues to judge it as he was yawning yesterday at a longer A time than 4 hours and he didn't sleep on the way home. I would do 30 minutes.
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He's starting to short nap on us again ladies. Grandma just text me to say he slept 10-11.30am & woke himself at the 1.5hr mark. This was after 4.75hrs A. She said he's in a very good mood. UT/OT??? So C/N is a necessary today. I REALLY hope Grandma can get it!
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Personally I wouldn't class that as a short nap! Bearing in mind that my ridiculously low sleep-needs girl old hasn't had a nap that long since she was 12 months ::) I think it could be a sign to increase to 5hrs tomorrow. Hopefully it'll be a good chance to get a catnap in today and get to a reasonable bedtime. Fingers crossed x
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I don't mean short like 30mins short, but I mean shorter than the 2hrs I would have expected!!! Lets hope it IS a sign that he needs longer A & not a sign OT is building. FX'd.
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Yes I'd say it's a sign of needing more A time. Even if it is OT you are at the stage where you just need to push through it now. You're lucky in that at least you get some long naps. M was 1.5 hour naps until 3-4 weeks into one nap.
He really needs a CN today so I hope he plays ball. I'd still aim for a good long A time after 1.5 hours before you'd get her to try for a CN.
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Oh ladies I could cry. :'( :'( :'( :'(
He refused the CN. MIL put him down at 3.45pm (4h 15 A) b/c she thought he looked tired & she left him in bed until 4.15pm but he screamed the whole time & wouldn't have it. So she got him back up.
They were late bringing him home & didn't get here until almost 5.45pm. I got him ready for bed immediately & PD at 6.10pm. He's just fallen asleep at 6.30pm & I am sure I'll be in for some OT NW's tonight. So our day has been:
Wake: 5.15am
A = 4.75hrs
Nap: 10.00 - 11.30am
A = 7hrs :o :o :o :o
BT: 6.30pm
This really isn't going well is it ??? We are now in an early wake, early nap, early BT trap & he is all way OT yet again & I don't know how to get us out of it. And he looks absolutely horrendous again. It wouldn't be so bad if he was waking at a later hour b/c I COULD do EBT to keep ontop of OT, but a 6pm BT is'nt really EBT when he's getting up at 5am every day. What is going on??? Is he still UT, even with almost 5hrs A??? Or have I just pushed too far ???
I am so close to taking Charli's suggestion to reinstate an AM CN. Maybe it would rescue us from this situation ??? Or do I need to just increase the A time to 5hrs tomorrow & then gradually work on shifting the nap later & later, by maybe 5mins every day until the nap is nearer lunchtime, in order to shift his WU later? And in the meantime keep BT at 6pm or 5hrs A time whichever is later?
Any thoughts ??? (Please!)
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Oh Claire, sorry you're upset :( This transition is tough going but my thinking is that the catnap refusal is showing that he's well ready for one nap and you should push to 5hrs A time tomorrow. My worry with going back to the AM catnap is that you might not get a decent PM nap. I had this with DD when we were going to 1 nap in that any kind of catnap in the AM usually meant a 45min PM nap for us and then we'd end up OT with two short naps, neither of which were restorative enough so we had no choice but to go to one nap. With O refusing a catnap as it is I worry that he would be the same.
I would suggest a 5hr A time tomorrow and to just ride out any OT for a little while longer. You're nearly there! And I do think O is showing he's ready by refusing the catnap every day.
Best of luck for tonight. He might surprise you and do a good one after the shorter nap today x
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Hun I think you need to stick with it and be consistent. This is going fine and is normal for a transition. I wouldn't change anything yet. Hopefully with a normal (ish) bedtime you'll get a later wake up tomorrow. I would do 5 A time tomorrow.
I honestly would not use sleepy cues hun to determine your CN. I think 4.15 was too early to try whether he looked tired or not. I'd have run him ragged for at least 4.5 if not more then tried. In this switch you need to make sure they are really tired for it to be a success. As I said earlier, a bit OT is your friend to get a CN.
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Thanks ladies. I am going to stay with it, I'm just having a little wobble I think.
As for CN today, after our discussions earlier I gave MIL a guide of 4-4.5hrs & left it up to her to decide when. Clearly that's not a good idea anymore. I'm hoping that C/N shouldn't need to be a worry anymore anyway as I shouldn't be needing to do it if he's doing 5hrs A right?
If we get another early start tomorrow say 5am do I just do the 5hrs A & EBT? Or would you suggest I try for a C/N to push BT later? Or only try for C/N if he does another short nap? It feels like I am wasting my time with the CN TBH. We spend almost an hour driving around, it costs me fuel & he doesn't sleep. Wouldn't I just be better running him ragged at home & doing EBT?
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I would do 5 hours A time and let him sleep as long as he wants and then at least 4.5 hours to bed, and I would push that to 5 hours if he does a 2 hour nap. I think you need to make sure you are getting a decent(ish) bedtime to ensure you do get stuck in the EBT loop.
To be fair to O he is actually doing really well with the transition. He has done a proper nights sleep and a great nap every day for ages. His waking isn't actually an EW as it is at least 10 hours night sleep (just earlier than we'd like!) and his naps have been at least 1.5 hours. So do try to see the positives too!!
I would push the A time out tomorrow. And stick at 5 hours for 3-4 days.
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So do try to see the positives too!!
That is very true. I know the WU isn't technically EW but it is very early LOL!
If I keep with it I guess we'll get there. Yes def stick with 5hrs for the next few days
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I honestly think you are doing the right thing.
I do think even if you reverted back to short am-long pm you'd still end up in a pickle as he'd refuse the pm nap at stage anyways!!
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Woke crying several t imes before 10pm then woke again at 4.40am for 5mins then up for the day at 6am. 11.5hrs of sleep (albeit a bit disturbed).
Ladies I am going for the 11am nap but I am extremely worried about his OT. He is most definitely tired this morning, his eyes are red rimmed & puffy, his face is grey, he is fussing a lot & he keeps laying down on the floor & rubbing his eyes & its only 8.30am. I think going 5hrs might send him over the edge into short nap territory again. :-\ Please tell me things are going to get better ??? Its this that makes me doubt he's ready for it.
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Amazing night! And yay for a proper wake up. (See the positives!!!)
Yes he may be getting OT but this is where you need to push through. The OT is inevitable unfortunately. It may take 3-4 weeks to get through it but you're getting there. No point confusing his poor wee body now by reducing A time. His wee body needs consistency to get through this.
5 hours to 11am sounds great. let him nap as long as he wants and then proper A time to bed. Remember anything over 1.5 for a nap in the transition is fine.
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Ladies, we made the 5hrs A time, it ended up a touch over by the time he settled at 11.07am (he was a wee bit loopy & took a little longer than I expected to go off). And he has just woken at the 45min mark. Sounds like he is resettling. I suspect we are going to get an OT nap of no more than 1.5hrs today. I sure hope I'm wrong. :-\
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1.5hr nap. ::)
Not really a surprise. I just KNEW that would happen after yesterday, & esp when he woke at the 45min mark. If I'd have done a 4hr A time I bet he'd have slept 2hrs+. Is this b/c his A time is still too short or is it just the way it goes while adjusting to the long A's i.e. its an OT nap ???
I'm going to my mum's this afternoon & we will be coming home at around 4pm so that's his only opportunity for CN. I don't think he'll take it since it'll only be 3.5hrs A. So guess it looks like another 6pm BT right? And that's STILL 5.5hrs A after his nap. Siigh.
This means to match today's WU he'll have to sleep 12hrs overnight, which I suspect is rather unlikely. Ladies, I had it suggested to me to count A time from the time we get up i.e. 6am rather than from the time he wakes. So If he wakes at 5.30am then we don't get up til 6am & then count 5hrs A from there so 11am nap. As if I just count it from when he wakes, his nap would be 10.30am, which is again way too early to start the day. Obviously if he wakes later than 6am then we just count 5hrs A. So its kind of like saying the absolute earliest I will put him down for a nap is 11am. I certainly think it could help to stop encouraging his EW, but if he wakes super early eg 5am then he could be in for a super long A time to his nap. What do you all think? Is this a better way to help stabilise his WU & nap ???
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Hi Honey,
Sorry for the late reply I've been out all morning. I know it doesn't seem like a great result but 1.5 hours is a good nap. Like I said yesterday the 45 OT no resettle nap (we had one today ::)) are the really dreadfull ones as even with 6 hrs to BT it's too early!
WRT A time..I absolutely wouldn't count from getting up. I feel like you're understandably desperate to speed things up and make it better sooner, but patience and consistency is the key..I know you know that sorry ::) it's just that I know how hard that can be when you're in the thick of it to keep the faith. And as I've said before because you've been trying to get Oliver into a good routine for so long it's hard for you to visualise anything actually working anymore..but it will and Oliver is closer than he has ever been at this stage. Stick with the 5 hours and let's wait for those 12 hour nights to kick in ;) Personally I'm not sure I'd even give the cat nap (we never did) as it may prolong things..I have a feeling others may disagree with that though LOL. I guess what I mean is I'd keep it for days when there's no option, like if (God forbid) he has a 45 minute nap, no resettle.
Bye for now Hon.
(X)
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That's a shame he didn't do a longer nap BUT it's still great progress - it's the same nap length as yesterday but a whole hour later! :)
Personally I would aim for a 6.30pm bed again as it worked well yesterday. I know it's 6hrs A time but he should be more able for it today after the later wake-up and later nap. I think if you can work towards a set bed time around 6.30pm that might be the best way to stabilise WU time and nap time. What do you think?
x
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Is this b/c his A time is still too short or is it just the way it goes while adjusting to the long A's i.e. its an OT nap
Its just him adjusting. 1.5 hours is totally fine for a nap at this stage.
I would not set his nap at this stage, I would keep counting 5 hours from wake up like you are doing. Doing 5 hours from a wake up is totally fine and would not be encouraging it plus I don't think we can refer to O's early wakes as EWings in the true sense as he always has a proper amount of night sleep. KWIM?
I agree I wouldn't do a CN and just do 6pm bedtime.
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How did you get on?
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Hi ladies
He didn't sleep in the car - I didn't really expect him to anyway, it was just there as an option if he wanted or needed it. I did 6pm BT b/c he most definitely needed it, he was tired at 5pm. PD at 5.50, asleep 6.10pm.
Although I don't like doing BT so early, I am not going to push it atm b/c I have been here before & stuck with a 6.30pm BT b/c of my worry he wouldn't extend his nights & it really was just too much for him - he got far too OT. So I'll stick with the 5hrs AM A time (from WU ;)) & the EBT of 6pm, until his nap is late/long enough that the A time to BT is 5hrs max. Does that sound like a plan?
Thanks so much to all of you for your continued support. I bet you will be as relieved as me when this is all over! ;)
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Glad he settled so well. Yes I wouldn't push bedtime out just yet.
Sitck with 5 hours for the next few days and see where that gets you. I think he is doing really well.
How is his form?
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And just wanted to add you guys are doing great!
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Thanks. He's doing ok. Reasonably happy, but he really does look tired. He's doing a lot of laying/lolling on the floor & flopping backwards all of a sudden. I am not sure if this is something he's doing just for fun (b/c he's learned how to 'flop' backwards) or if its b/c he's feeling a bit lethargic. I'm hoping its just for fun!
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Sounds like he is coping well then! Good boy O!! He must know how much you need this!!!
Oh and I'm voting the flopping is for fun too!!!!
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5.15am WU here. Nap will be at 10.15am. Ladies I don't like how much his nap is jumping around. Yesterday it was 11am, today its 10.15am. I know I am keeping to a set amount of A but how is his body ever going to get used to napping ata certain time of day if it moves around like this???
Even if he sleeps 2hrs we are still going to have a 6hr A time to BT at 6pm, if nap is shorter then its longer. I just don't feel like we're making much progress yet. Siigh.
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Slow progress, but still progress!
How do you think he's coping with the 5hr A time? I think you have two options today
1. Stick with 5hrs but then you'll need to try yet again for that elusive catnap if nap is 1.5hrs again. Do you think he'd take one if you tried as late as 4.30/5pm? That would allow you to push bedtime out, which you'll need soon since the clocks are changing!
2. Push on to 5hrs 15 A time. Did he have a less disrupted night last night? If he had a solid 11hrs then it might be a good time to up the A time some more.
I do think there are some windows of opportunity during a transition like this and I hope we didn't miss one yesterday. I feel like somehow we didn't capatilise on that later WU, but not sure what else could have been done :-\
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KDee - its hard to say how he's coping with it yet - we've only done one day so far!!! I think if we didn't have the long day/EW issue he would probably cope ok with it, but while we still have that he's just getting OT.
WRT the options you suggested - who knows if he'd take the CN ??? If the nap is short again I will certainly try & I will make the A time even longer. more like 4.5-4.75hrs to see if he'll take it. Like you say, I will NEED to do this for the clocks changing anyway.
As for stretching his A again, I don't think I've given the 5hr A a long enough shot to say its not working yet. His night was less disturbed than previous nights - but we still got a couple of brief WU's at 8 & 9pm. That said, he is clearly very tired again this morning. he's incredibly fussy & shaking his head. I think unless we can get his day shorter & he sleeps a longer night he's going to struggle to cope with these A times for very long.
I actually had a look at all my sleep books last night & all the experts seem to say the same thing about this transition, keep shifting the nap time later by 5mins every few days until its after lunch, & in the mean time, keep doing EBT. I am wondering if once the clock change is out the way, this might be my best option. I just feel like we are trapped in this early wake, early nap early BT cycle & unless I do something proactive we are not going to get out of it. I know from my past experience with EW the only way to get out is to push the nap later. Maybe this would be the best plan of action for our situation - what do you think ladies???
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Sweetie, I would push that nap out a touch to at least 10.30 to combat ew cycle but not much more or you may get more OT. Do you think you could do a 10 min walk around then 5 min extra wd or read a book to get him there? S x
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Yea I'm sure I could get him there Sara. I am just worrying about not being consistent though. We've literally pushed his A time from 4.25hrs to 5hrs in 3-4 days & its a big enough jump already without going another 15mins. But I definitely agree that doing early nap is just encouraging the EW. I think I am going to have no option soon but to be brutal with this 1 nap business & just push it forwards 5mins every day regardless of how long he's been awake b/c I think if I don't then we are going to be stuck here for a VERY long time. I can't believe he is taking his nap so early now. This is as early as he was taking his AM nap on a 2 nap day some weeks ago. Siigh. I am actually feeling pretty lost & pretty close to tears right now b/c NOTHING I do is helping. We are at the 5hrs A & are STILL with a 10am nap. Its just not good. And I am getting so tired of EMW. Surely after 9 months of it we deserve a break. Please. :'( :'( :'( :'(
ETA: we didn't make 10.30am. ::) He was getting too tired. Falling over & eyelids drooping. PD 10.10, asleep 10.20am. FX'd.
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But I definitely agree that doing early nap is just encouraging the EW.
Claire, I am going to be really honest. The early nap is NOT encouraging the EW. It is not a case of him not having enough A time so he is catching up on night sleep. That is not the case here when he is doing a proper amount of A time. That is only the case if it is a true EW (less than 10 hours sleep) and then they are doing way less than appropriate A time before they want to nap again.
O is NOT EW hun. He's not. He did an 11 hour night. If you have him in bed at 6pm, asleep for 6.10pm then 5.15am is a great wake up.
The early waking is not being caused by the nap being too early. it is a part of this transition. It is a combination of not handling long enough A times and going to bed early. KWIM? I hate to think of you being so upset over this because actually O is doing great.
I think you need to give it a few more days and see does the nap lengthen out again.
TBH overall I think the early bedtimes are the issue. I know O has done a few nights where he has tacked on his night sleep but I don't think he is truly a kid who tacks on.
For me if things are still wonky in a few days I would set a bedtime that you are not going to go earlier than. And I would pick 6.45/7pm so that with an 11 hour night you still get an ok wake up. I pretty much set bedtime and nap when we moved to one nap give or take 10 minutes and we just got through the OT. If OT was coming into play I did a CN and a later bedtime to catch us up. But i think you need to be fair to you and O. He is doing great. TBH if you weren't so concerned about OT I would tell you to set the nap and bedtime and just go with it for 2 weeks but you have me terrified of how he is when he's OT ;)
{{{{hugs hun}}}}
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Shiv - thanks hun - I do know he's not technically EW'ing, but rather we are in an early wake, early nap, early BT cycle. I am just so tired of it though. We've now spent 9 months of O's 14month life with really early starts to our day. Sleep deprivation is so exhausting, both mentally & physically & I've really had enough. :'( :'(
I agree I don't think O is a kid who tacks on, ::) so where does that leave us ???
As far as I see - and I think from your post you agree - we need to shift his day later. If I keep offering the nap after 5hrs A when he wakes at 5am then he will keep needing EBT & we will carry on getting an early start to the day.
So to my mind, there are 2 ways to deal with this.
1) push the nap later (gradually so as not to risk an OT nap), which should mean BT will also be later OR
2) like you suggest - stretch BT to a set time.
Is there a reason why the 2nd option is a better approach than the first? In the past when I have stretched BT as a means of shifting his day later it has always backfired & he has woken even earlier the next day through OT, so I am a bit hesitant to try it. Do you think its a less risky approach than pushing the nap out, b/c if if I push the nap too far he might short-nap & thus need an even earlier BT ??? I thought the former might be a more gentle way to do it than say 'ok you napped 10-12 but you've got to stay up til 7pm no matter what' IYSWIM?
TBH if you weren't so concerned about OT I would tell you to set the nap and bedtime and just go with it for 2 weeks but you have me terrified of how he is when he's OT ;)
I am actually beginning to setting the times might be the best route. Its got to be more consistent than what we are doing now. I think I am brave enough to handle his OT. I think the worst bit is probably my guilt at how tired he looks as opposed to how he is in himself. :-[
I think if things are still looking wonky by next week then this is what I may need to do. What time would I set the nap with a 5am WU though??? This is why I wondered whether saying nap is 11am (regardless of WU) & then gradually shifting it 5mins later each day would be the best idea, until its at midday. Thus its still a set nap as such, but we are working it gradually towards where it wants to be (after lunch). What do you think?
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KDee - its hard to say how he's coping with it yet - we've only done one day so far
Ha! I was sure it had been at least two days!
I've always found pushing the nap later to be the best option before stretching bedtime as an OT nap is easier to recover from than an OT night IYSWIM. If he wasn't so sensitive to OT I think you could do something like a set nap at 11 and a set bedtime of 6.30pm and gradually push both on over a few days.
How is he getting on today?
x
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Thanks KDee. Day so far is:
Wake: 5.15
Nap: 10.20 - 12.20 (woke whinging)
BT: ???
I guess its another 6pm-er right? Don't really see how I can push it on today with the WU & nap being so early. What do you all think?
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Great nap! Yes, I would think a 6pm bedtime is best. He seems to be doing well on 5hrs. I think you could push on a bit more tomorrow if you get another good nap.
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I think you could push on a bit more tomorrow if you get another good nap.
Do you mean do a slightly later BT or push the nap a touch later - so 10.30am rather than 10.20?
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Sorry! I meant push the nap on a bit more if you get another good night.
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Yea I will do. If he woke substantially later tomorrow say 5.45 or 6am would I still do more than 5hrs A or do I stay with it, b/c nap would be at 10.45-11 instead of 10.15 like today.
This is where I get a bit confused - esp when you are doing set nap times, b/c if I keep to a set time & start nudging it forward, if one day I get a later WU then do I stick with the usual naptime (meaning a shorter A to naptime, or do I need to go later so the nap is not UT???
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I think keep nudging the nap out at this stage, especially if he wakes later (FX he does!). So 5hrs 15mins tomorrow?
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We'll see what his WU time is first! I think if its same as today (5.15) then yes, I'll do 5h 15min & a 10.30am nap. If WU is earlier then I'll keep to today's nap time - does that sound fair?
BT today was 6.05pm so 5.75hrs A time to BT. Am hoping for a decent night's sleep.
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Sounds like a plan. Best of luck for tonight!
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Well, he woke a few times 1-3hrs after BT, then woke at 3.40am (though I didn't wake up for that one!) & then up for the day at wait for it.......................6.10am. 12h 5mins sleep!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!
He's actually looking more tired today than he has all week, despite having had a longer nap & longer night yesterday, so I have considered it a lot but am going to stay with the 5hrs A time. Its only day 3 & I think if I push too much too soon I could end up sending him into an OT spiral. Grandma is at our house this morning while I'm at work & will be doing nap at 11.15am. Lets hope this is the start of things falling into place.
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Great! That's a decent nap time. Well done!
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Ladies, Grandma put O down a touch early for his nap (4h 55) as she thought he seemed a bit out of sorts & tired this morning. He napped 11.05-1.05 with a WU at the 1hr mark. When I got home from work he was whiny & very flushed - I took his temperature as he felt hot & it was 38.6 degrees. Siigh I think he's getting poorly again. Stripped him down, dosed him up with calpol & he seems to be a lot better now though temp is still raised at 37.9.
We were thinking about a 6.30pm BT which would be 5h 20mins A after a 2hr PM nap. Does that sound OK or am I pushing it too much. Just thought it might be a good idea to nudge BT a touch since we had a later WU & a much later nap.
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Poor O.
Yes I'd do 6.30pm. I think you have to push when you get the opportunity. Fab night last night and great nap today.
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Aaaaw Oliver Sweetiepie! :'( I'd be tempted to check out a childminder Hon, poor little mite.
However, great nap :) despite the half way WU. I agree to push BT as long as he isn't feeling/looking too poorly. If he is it may take him a while to settle and you'll end up with a longer A time than planned. Also possible NW so I'd keep an eye and decide using your instincts and your thermometer. Claire Hon, do you have Oliver on a multivitamin? Sam has been on Abidec since he was getting ear infections and since (please God it's continues) he's been able toward off even things we've had. I know it's the nursery germs that are affecting Oliver but it can't do any harm to try and boost his immune system. You don't need to worry about vitamin overdose, it's extremely hard to overdose on any vitamin as the body gets rid of what it doesn't need. I have this on good authority from a health professional.
Hope it's a short poorly blip Darling.x.
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Oh poor O! But yes, great chance to push on bedtime after the later WU and excellent nap. Hope he sleeps well and gets better soon x
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Hi ladies.
O was rubbing eyes at 4pm so we actually took him for a car ride. Of course he didn't sleep, but we felt we had to offer him the opportunity, especially if he's feeling off colour. He was clearly very tired so we decided not to go all the way to 6.30pm so PD at 6.15pm, he was asleep by 6.20pm, 5h 15mins A after a 2hr nap. Bit earlier than I'd have liked but I think even that might have been a touch too much b/c he has already woken 20mins after BT. Lets hope we don't have a rough night.
Vicki - no we don't give him a multivitamin but I am beginning to think it might be a good idea! How do you administer it - is it a chewy tablet/drink/syrup/powder ???
I am so torn re: nursery/childminder. He is really enjoying nursery b/c of all the fun activities he gets to do there, but boy am I sick of him being ill. He's had a streaming nose for the last 5 weeks solid, a chesty cough for 4 weeks & antibiotics haven't shifted it, hand foot & mouth & now something else brewing! It really does make me want to send him to a childminder, but then wouldn't he get these illnesses at some point anyway??? So are we just better getting them out of the way now rather than when he starts school IYSWIM?!
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I'm glad you PD early. I think though he slept well, if he is sick he needs the shorter A. Hope your night goes well
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Hey Claire,
Abidec is a multivitamin with Omega 3. It comes in syrup form which I used to give Sam..5mls in a dropper syringe IYKWIM ::) but now as it doesn't taste that great I give him it in drops form which is 10mls in a dropper which goes on the back of the tongue.
I hope he sleeps well tonight Hon and is all better when he wakes.
(X)
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We had a very unsettled night. Didn't have to go to him but he woke repeatedly in the early part of the night & then he woke at 3am, 3.30am & then at 4.30am I seriously thought he was up for the day. Don't know how long he was awake but he did eventually go back off to sleep until 6am. So 11h 45 sleep but very disturbed.
His temperature is back to normal & he seems ok this morning, but he looks even worse around his eyes than he did yesterday & he keeps laying on the floor & he has also been head shaking, which we've not had so far.
Ladies I was thinking about the clock change today & the fact that we need to get his day stretched. I am very worried that if we do 5hrs A & nap then shoot for a CN later he may well refuse & then that leaves us with a 6pm BT which means 5am or earlier WU tomorrow.
What if, as a one off, we do a 45min AM nap from say 9.45-10.30 & a 1.5hr pm nap something like 2-3.30 or 2.30-4 & then shoot for a 7.30-8pm BT. We'll likely only get 11hrs sleep overnight but it will give us a later WU, may help him with OT if he is feeling more tired today AND I am certain I can get the 2 naps. Just seems like it might be a better way to handle today & then we can get back on with the 5hrs A tomorrow. What do you all think?
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Haven't been in your position hun re turning your day around. I think if you know you can get that PM nap - even if you have to APOP it, then it wont mess up your progress so far as a 1 off :) (HUGS) on the rough night. Could have been because he wasn't well you think? :-*
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YEah I would do that Clare especially based on the clock changing. We're doing CN and later bedtime here too. It wouldn't be unusual in this transition to need the odd 2 nap day to keep on top of the OT either so I think it sounds like a good plan.
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Hiya ladies.
Yes rough night may be down to illness but his temperature is normal today & he doesn't seem to be ill (except for the ongoing cold ::))
We didn't do the short AM nap today - decided it might be better to keep with our routine & try for the elusive PM C/N in order to stretch the day, rather than changing it up on him & doing short AM/long PM, despite my worries. However, I think it was a big mistake.
We stuck with the 11am nap (5hrs A) but Oliver really struggled with it. He has looked dreadfully tired all morning & kept bursting into tears. He cried really hard when I took him up to bed, where normally he doesn't, so I was half expecting an OT nap. He woke after 20mins & took almost 10mins to resettle & has just woken again after another 30mins but has gone back to sleep now. And now we're onto the 3rd mid-nap WU after just 10more mins at 12.10pm.
I've attached a pic of him today so you can all see what I am seeing ATM. Forgive me its not the best of pics but I just want to know if you all think he looks as dreadfully tired as I do. This is how he looks ALL THE TIME. MIL has just called to see how he is, & she said she thought yesterday he looked 'really weary' & like he's utterly worn out.
I am very very worried about this. He is having disturbed night sleep every single night, disturbed naps & looks dreadful. This is our 3rd or 4th attempt (I forget ::)) to do 1 nap now - but if he is getting this OT with the transition surely that is a big enough hint in itself that he isn't ready. What if all this PM nap refusal isn't b/c he is ready for 1 nap, as they say it can start WELL before they are really ready. And I learned yesterday there is a big sleep regression at around 13months where they can start refusing naps as they assert their independence/authority. What if its just been a case of the latter all along???
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I don't really know what to say Claire. From all your pp 2 naps just does not seem feasible as you don't think he can handle the longer days consistently (which is what you have to have to fit it all in without capping naps) and you don't want to have a later bedtime than 7/7.30pm.
And I learned yesterday there is a big sleep regression at around 13months where they can start refusing naps as they assert their independence/authority. What if its just been a case of the latter all along???
Well if that is the case then you are still going to be stuck with a one nap day anyways and all you can do is keep offering and if he doesn't take it then do EBT and accept the early wake ups.
So i guess it is upto you. I personally would keep going with what you are doing but you will probably need a 2 nap day every so often and a later bedtime to keep on top of the OT. That is totally normal and fine. I hope you get your CN later. I would make sure you give him a really good long A time or else he is likely to refuse it.
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I personally would keep going with what you are doing but you will probably need a 2 nap day every so often and a later bedtime to keep on top of the OT.
Thanks Shiv - we have just been talking & we are going to keep going at it. I am just finding it all so very worrying & stressful b/c I think he is incredibly tired & I have this huge fear I am doing the wrong thing. But you are right, there isn't much room to go back to 2 naps now as he is doing such long A times & gets less sleep overall that way than with the 1 nap. I need to kick my 'poor baby syndrome 'in the butt & remember why I am doing this don't I?
WRT throwing in a 2nap day with a later BT every so often - how do I do this if he won't take the PM C/N ??? Do I need to offer a short AM/long PM since that is the only way I will get it for sure??? Or is that the wrong approach b/c it breaks with the routine?
He's had an awfully disturbed nap with 4 WU's & it is over after 1h 45mins, at 12.45pm. So we will be trying for the C/N. What length A time do I try after that length of nap - would I be better to just do 4.75-5 hrs to completely avoid the risk of refusal? If I do that, nap will be 5.30-5.45pm. How long to let him sleep??? Say 10-15mins & then do 7.30/8pm BT???
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would I be better to just do 4.75-5 hrs to completely avoid the risk of refusal? If I do that, nap will be 5.30-5.45pm. How long to let him sleep??? Say 10-15mins & then do 7.30/8pm BT???
Yes. I'd do at least 4.75, let him sleep 15-20 minutes then bed for 8pm. Hopefully then you'll get an 11 hour night which will actually be a 6am wake up which isn't too bad.
With the 2 nap day...it is a break from the routine anyways so it doesn't matter if you do long am-short pm or vice versa. I used to AP a CN every 4-5 days when I just thought she was getting too tired and just did later bedtime that day. M's naps were only 1.5 hours though initially so O may not need too many 2 nap days through the transition as he is generally napping well. But it is something you can use when you think he needs to catch up or if you wake up is getting too early and you need to push bedtime later again.
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Ah thanks for that. I thought I had to keep with the same routine I was doing (long AM) so that's good to know that it shouldn't matter if it is just for the odd day.
PD for PM nap at 4.75hrs & just gone off at 5hrs A, 5.45pm. Going to allow 15mins & then do BT at 8 (if he is good for it).
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He made it til 7.45pm. He was starting to get loopy so I decided better to PD a tad early than PD at 8 & have him take 30mins to settle b/c he's OT. He went to sleep pretty quickly. All I can do now is wait.........
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Good luck for tonight hun xx
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He wasn't asleep when I wrote that last post - thought he was but he fooled me! Asleep 7.55pm.
He woke repeatedly every 20-30mins until around 11pm & then who knows how many times overnight. He did 9h 50 of broken night sleep & was up for the day today at 5:45am - & then I remembered the clocks changed so that was actually 4:45am. :o :o :o He wasn't very happy at WU & we left him 45mins before getting up in hopes he'd resettle but he didn't.
We got a proper EW :( :'( :'( :'(
Seems we'd have had the same WU if I'd have just stuck with a 12hr day. Hope you had better luck ladies.
If we keep with the 5hrs A then nap will be at 9.45am, and if he sleeps 2hrs he'll have 6hrs 15min A time to BT & if he sleeps less then he'll have even longer to last. I think today we have no choice but a 2 nap day. He is so very tired today & he NEEDS it, esp with nursery tomorrow.
Ladies, I think the time has come for me to stop seeking advice on BW. Its such a fantastic resource but I think I am becoming over-reliant on it & am seeking advice from others when I should have the courage & confidence to make my own decisions about my LO & what he needs. I know I have issues with lack of self esteem & confidence & in relying on others I am not taking steps to help myself. For my son, I need to take a few steps back & make my own judgements (of course taking on board all I have learned ;)).
Thank you so much for all the time & effort you have spent helping me ladies. I am going to stay with it & hopefully in a few weeks/months things will look & feel very different.
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(((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))
xxx.
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Hugs Claire xx
Trust your mummy gut. It is rarely wrong, if ever xx
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Ladies - just thought I'd give you an update. I'm staying with the routine (bet you thought I never would ;))
We've had a very messy week courtesy of the clock change, with mostly 5am WU's. Last tuesday he pretty much fell asleep in his highchair at 9am at MIL's house so that was a 2 nap day. We did 2 naps again on Saturday to push his BT (& hopefully WU) later. It worked - he did an 11.5hr night :)
Yesterday
WU: 6.50am
Nap: 12.05 - 2.05 (PD for 11.50am - took a while to settle. WU at 1hr mark but resettled. Not surprised as he was rubbing his eyes at 9.45am & going round in circles by nap time.)
BT: 7pm (PD at 6.40pm aiming for 6.50 asleep.
NW: 8pm, 9.30pm, crying every 5-10mins from 4.30-5.15am
Today
Wake: 6am
Nap 11.05 - 12.30
BT: 6.15pm (PD 5.55pm)
We are around 3 weeks into this 'routine' now & are still not getting consistently long naps or nights. I can't bring myself to believe he's LSN b/c he constantly looks tired & his naps/nights are short & disturbed so I am putting this down to OT from the transition & the unfortunate timing of the clocks changing ::)
So...... do you mind if I ask your thoughts on this:
While we stick with the 5hr AM A time & he keeps doing less than 12hrs at night, his WU keeps getting earlier. This means nap gets earlier each day, & as we stick with 6pm BT at the earliest, his A time to BT gets longer & longer, meaning he gets OT at BT. I really need to try & get his WU stabilised b/c it is still jumping all over.
I am thinking it may be time to stick with a set nap of say 11am, no matter what wakeup we get (even if its 5am :-\) & gradually push it forward by 5mins every 3 days until we're at a midday nap & 7pm BT. I think while I keep offering an early nap we will keep getting an early wakeup time & the cycle will continue. Would you agree ladies or do you think I am better staying as we are with the 5hrs A time in the hopes that things eventually settle down.
Am not going to debate/question/analyse anyone's response, I guess I'm just looking for a bit of reassurance that we are heading on the right track.
Thanks ladies.xx
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Hey hun
I would start to think about setting the nap, yes. I set nap and bedtime in our transition and i do think it made a big difference to success. So I guess my advice is to set nap and bedtime give or take 10 minutes and stick with it. He has been doing the longer A times for a good while now so he should be ready for the next set and it actually might help the naps lengthen and WU set a bit better if the nap and bedtime are set.
Well done you for sticking with it xx
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Go you claire! I think you sticking with this through those tough weeks is amazing :-* I agree with Shiv. I found this really helped us when Z finally made the transition to 1 nap.
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Hi Sweetie,
I agree at this stage. Oliver's definetely stuck in the early nap early BT cycle so it seems the most sensible option. It may not be easy but I'm sure in time it will pay off.
So proud of you for sticking with it Honey. It must take an awful lot of strength and determination ;).
Sleepy Vibes your way.xxx.
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Thanks ladies. We had another early start today - he started crying out at 5.07am, every 5 mins or so until 5.40am when he started to shout. Not exactly sure when he officially woke, but we got up at 6am so I held him out til 11am for his nap. He did 2hrs from 11am-1pm & BT was 6.10pm. I'm hoping for a decent night's sleep so we can start on gradually shifting his nap later - 5mins at a time.
I'll let you know in a couple of weeks how we are going.
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I reckon that is a great day Claire :) Good luck for the next few weeks! x
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Great nap Honey :)
Let's hope it's a good sign for the future!
(X)
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So ladies, we're still on 1 nap and 4ish weeks in now. The last few days we've been on set nap of 11.10am. Today was the first day at 11.15am (we are shifting it later by 5mins every 3 days).
We had a crazy day saturday where he woke at 5am & I managed to get him back to sleep at 6.30am (ish) for another 1.25hrs. Of course I knew he'd be UT for nap at 11.10am so I pushed it to 12.30pm & he napped 2h 15mins. BT at 7.30pm
Yesterday went:
Wake: 6.15 (10h 45mins of solid sleep)
Nap: 11.25 - 1.15 (he took a while to settle - and woke at 1h 45, back to sleep for 5 mins).
BT: 6.25 (aimed for 6.15 asleep but took a while to settle again)
NW: 8pm, 8.30, 9.30 (more like a cry out rather than a NW where I had to go to him, but still disturbed)
Today:
WU: 5.35am (11h 10 sleep)
Nap: 11.15 - 12.45 (at nursery)
BT: should be 6.15 but I suspect we'll need to bring it earlier to 6pm given the early WU and short nap.
Ladies, I am not opposed to an 11hr night, but he still looks very tired so I can't believe that is all he needs. And if he is only doing 11hrs at night, surely he should be doing a longer nap than 1.5hrs??? Do you think this looks like OT is setting in???
He is doing some super huge 5.5-6hr A times in the AM now, followed by 5 in the PM - b/c I am keeping him to his set nap time (which I am trying to push later to push his WU later), except it seems to be having the opposite effect & his WU keeps getting earlier. I am trying to keep his day as short as possible to reduce OT but this does not seem to be giving us a later WU at all. Its just making for an earlier WU the following day & therefore even longer before his nap IYSWIM.
Can you spot anything in my routine that needs tweaking? Should I be giving him more A time after his nap to BT (given that he's not doing any longer at night) ??? I am frightened to stretch his day to 13hrs every day for fear of OT setting in & him falling asleep in his highchair at 9am again. :-\
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We are still struggling on ladies
Mon: WU: 5.35, A = 5h 40 Nap 11.15-12.45 (1.5hrs) A = 5h 40 BT: 6.25pm NW BT-10pm every 30mins 1hr NW: 11.30-12.30
Tues: WU: 6.00 A = 3h 30 Nap: 9.30-10 (30mins) A = 4hrs Nap: 2-3.30 (1.5hrs) A = 4hrs BT: 7.30pm No NW's
Wed: WU: 6.55 A = 5h 30 Nap: 12.30 - 2.00 (1.5hrs) A = 4h 30 BT: 6.30pm NW 8pm, 8.30, 9, 9.30, 9.45, 10
Today: WU:5.20 Was tired at 9am so down for nap at 9.15. ::)
We are getting no more than 1.5hr naps with the 1 nap & I know this is b/c his A time to nap is too long & he is going down OT.
Admittedly, yesterday I made a silly mistake to push a full 5hrs A time b/c of the 7am WU. Was scared of him being UT - duh! I PD for 12midday & it took 30mins of squealing before he went to sleep & then he did a short nap. In hindsight I should have stayed with the 11.20am nap time b/c he probably only slept in later to catch up on OT.
So ladies, we are stuck in an early (and OT) loop & even the set nap doesn't seem to be pulling us out. Any suggestions anyone? Set nap plus set 6.30/7pm BT to try & force a later WU??? Still do 2 naps when WU is before 6am??? Carry on as I am but don't push the nap later if we get a later WU ???
I am trying to go with the flow a bit more & try to decide for myself in the main, but would appreciate any suggestions
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Claire I can only tell you what I have been doing....
So I have been putting Cassie down at 9.30 waking her at 10 and back down again at 12 and bed at 7. I then started to move the morning nap forward by five mins and move the lunch time one back by five mins
So it would look like 9.35 am in bed lift at 10 nap at 11.55.
We are now at her being put down at 9.40 and Lifted at 10. I moved the lunch time nap earlier to 11.30as she was tired. She is sleeping to 2pm on the dot, you can set your watch by it! In bed and asleep at 7pm and wakes on the dot at 6am.....another 11 hour night kid here :)
This is working for us. And I feel that even if she doesn't nap in the morning she has that down time and is revived for another hour and a half or so!
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Wow Amy - she will actually go down just 1.5hrs after a 20min nap???!!! We are still doing some 2 nap days but if Oliver has a 30min AM nap there's no way on this earth he'd go back down at 12!!! He needs 3.5-4hrs A time - no kidding!
I've come to the conclusion we just have to keep doing 1 nap days & just throw in a 2 nap day with 30mins 9.30-10 and 1.5hrs from 1.30/2-3/3.30 & BT 4hrs later. This seems to be giving us an 11-11.5hr night & we are then good to carry on with 1 nap the next day.
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thats exactly what we did Clare. One nap and CN every few days to help with OT. We did do set bedtime too though.
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She wouldn't actually sleep for the full 20 mins. We would go into her room at 9.40 she would have a bottle of milk and would probably sleep max 10/15 mins. This is enough to get her over the hump of tiredness!
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Ah I see. Kind of what we did today. He had 25mins from 9.35-10 (was amazed at this since he got up at 6.40am so only 3hrs A) & then he's gone down for his PM nap at 1.55pm. Will let him sleep 1.5hrs max & he'll have BT at 7.30pm. This should hopefully see us a post-6am WU for his nursery day tomorrow where he'll only have 1 nap.
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Yes we can do one nap with the wake up is later say after 6.30 but if it is before that then she needs the little power nap :)
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Ladies we are still ploughing on with 1 nap with 2 nap days thrown in when we get an earlier start. I have now gotten his nap to around 11.30am (give or take 15mins) & this, combined with the 2 nap days has resulted in a general improvement in his WU's YAY ;D (today excepted ::)).
The last week went like this:
Mon WU: 6.15 A = 5h Nap: 11.15-11.45 (OT nap) A = 4h Nap: 3.45 - 4.15 (OT nap) BT: 6.30 (at nursery today)
Tue WU: 6.50 A = 4h 45 Nap: 11.35-1.35 (2h) A = 5h 10 BT: 6.45
Wed: WU: 6.45 A = 5h Nap: 11.45-2.00 (2h 15) A = 5h BT: 7.00
Thu: WU: 6.00 A = 5h 20 Nap: 11.20-1.50 (2h 30) A = 5h 25 BT: 7.15 (PD for 7pm but took ages to settle poss UT due to long nap???)
Fri: WU: 6.00 A = 3.5h Nap: 9.30-10.00 A = 4h 15 Nap: 2.15-3.30 (1h 15) A = 3h 45 BT: 7.20
Sat: WU: 6.40 A = 5h 15 Nap: 11.55-2.00 (2h 5) A = 5h 5 BT: 7.05 (late PD for nap - my bad - took him ages to settle & he woke at 30min mark - OT)
Sun: WU: 5.45 A = 3h 55 Nap: 9.40-10.00 (20min) A = 4h 5 Nap: 2.05-3.30(plan to wake him & BT will be @ 7.30pm
His WU's are still fairly erratic & this is making things difficult. On days when he wakes earlier than 6.30am we have a problem b/c this means he has to do over 5hrs A to nap time at 11.30am & this seems to cause an OT nap (with mid-nap WU's). Even more so now that he is walking - his A times seem to have taken a bit of a dip. Up to now I have been doing 2 naps to combat early starts, but TBH, its getting more & more tricky now, and I am actually wondering if we may have to stop offering them altogether unless he is literally falling to sleep on the floor.
Today for example, he was up at 5.45. I decided on a 2 nap day - & he's protested at both of them. UT for the AM nap for sure. Not sure on the PM nap - I tried to PD at 1.30pm & he screamed & cried as I took him to read a story for his WD & he wriggled out of my arms & ran off back to play with his toys. I tried again at 1.45pm & put him in bed & it still took until 2.05pm for him to fall asleep. Does it sound to you like the 2 nap days are no longer an option???
Having said all that, we are also getting protesting at naptime even on 1 nap days & its especially bad if DH is at home. Is this normal for this age??? Could do with some reassurance as its getting rather stressful. :-\
So, I'm quite prepared to just try 1 nap days, but wondered if any of you lovely ladies had any tips or words of wisdom on how we can bring some more consistency to our wakeups? We seem to be having around 11hrs on 1 nap days & often only 10h 45 (unless he needs to catch up from short naps at nursery) & I'm sure this is a little on the low side??? I feel it may be down to nailing the right mix of A times & the right length of nap, to give us a consistent length night - but cannot figure out what this is! I've tried capping his nap at 2h 15 as longer def. seems to cause shorter night, but not sure if I need a longer A to BT or a longer A to nap.
Any ideas/suggestions welcome.
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I would go for a consistent bedtime. I don't think you can expect a consistent wake up if you are doing varying bedtimes xx
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Thanks Shiv. We are trying to keep to nap 11.30 & BT at 7pm give or take 15mins. Obviously if we have to throw in a 2 nap day the BT goes a bit later. The last few days has gone:
Mon: WU 5.30 A = 6h Nap: 11.30-1.35 A = 5h 5 BT: 6.40 (he was knackered due to very long AM A time)
Tue: WU:5.40 A = 5h 55 Nap: 11.35-2.10 A= 5h 10 BT: 7.20
Wed: WU:5.10 A = 4h 5 Nap: 9.15-9.30 A = 3h 5 Nap: 12.35-2.30 A = 4h 30 BT: 7.00
Today we were up at 5.40am again. 10h 40 night sleep. I had high hopes that the 2 naps would help recover our EW situation & its helped a little but not enough. So, what to do today? This is the 5th day in a row that will be 13.5hrs+ in length & the 3rd day this week where he's had to do 6hrs A to nap. This can't be good. I know for sure that the 2.5hr nap on Tues caused the EW on Wed so I know I need to cap his nap, but aside from that I can't see what else I need to do. Do you think he needs the nap pushing later??? Or just a longer A to BT, maybe 5.5hrs, even if he does 6hrs A to nap in the AM??? Or do I just need to accept he's not even going to do 11hrs night sleep while on 1 nap?
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I think i would stick to 7pm bedtime and no give or take to see does that help. because there is such a variation between bed at 6.40 and bed at 7.20 across 2 nights. Plus after a good 2 hour nap he should be able to manage 5.5 A time no bother.
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Thanks Shiv. So you think it all rests on that A time to BT then? I guess that makes sense since the nap is already fixed.
I've done that tonight, even before seeing your reply b/c I thought that was maybe what I needed to do, so day went:
WU: 5.40 A = 5h 50 Nap: 11.25-1.40 (2h 15) A = 5.5hrs BT: 7.10pm. Am hoping this gives us a better night.
Here's a Q for you - I've read other posts where folks suggest that you need to take the A time for the whole day into account so if they do a longer A in the morning they might not handle so long in the PM & vice versa. I've been keeping this in mind & hence why I haven't pushed him so far in the PM when he's woken early & had a 6hr A time to his nap. So do you think I need to disregard that & push him the correct amount of A after a 2hr nap i.e. 5.5hrs, regardless of how long he's already been awake in the morning ???
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I guess for me I feel if you base bedtime based on overall A time and don't have a kiddo who consistently tacks on to night sleep then I think it will perpetuate the EW. Or not EW I guess but just wake up 11 hours or so later. I think you've given it a good go and he's still not tacking on so I think setting bedtime is the way to go. I also think that even if he does have a 5.5-6 hour A time in the morning, if he has a good 2 hour nap then he should be fine to last to a reasonable set bedtime.
HOw is he at bedtime these last few days? Is he totally exhausted or do you think he will manage it ok? What wake up are you aiming for ? are you thinking 7pm bedtime?
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Yea that does make sense. I do think we have given it a pretty good go & we are still only getting around 11hrs, sometimes a little more or less. I know we're never going to get 12hr nights but I did hope for 11.5 once we got on the 1 nap, but I think even that's a pipe dream!!!
He's ok at bedtime TBH. Not crying or anything, and sometimes not even rubbing his eyes. And since his nap moved later & he's been doing less than 6hrs A to BT we're not getting all the ENW's like we were having when his nap was at 10am.
WRT WU, anything post 6am would be good, but 6.30am ish would be even better. I realise as I type this though that I'm probably not going to get it unless we do a 7.30pm BT are we? In which case I suppose I need to shift the nap later than 11.30,b/c I already know that 6hrs A to BT is too much for him.
I think to start with I'll try the consistent 7pm BT & try & avoid the 2 nap days. If no improvement in another week or so then I'll have to think about working on shifting the nap & BT later by 30mins. Does that sound like a plan?
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I think to start with I'll try the consistent 7pm BT & try & avoid the 2 nap days. If no improvement in another week or so then I'll have to think about working on shifting the nap & BT later by 30mins. Does that sound like a plan?
Yes that sounds great. I would start with 7pm set bedtime and give that a week and see how wake up goes and then yes you'll need to move the nap up a bit. I think though when he settles into it you will hopefully get an 11.5 hour night though and can stick to a 7pm bedtime with a 6.30am wake up. Hope for the best!!
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Shiv I could cry this morning. :'( :'( :'(
Yesterday went WU 5.40am A = 5h 45 Nap 11.25-1.40 (2h 15) A = 5h 30 BT 7.10pm
This morning he was up at 5.20am so only 10h 10 sleep. It seems that the more I push him to comply with set times, the worse his sleep gets.
Was 5.5hrs too long after having already done the 6hrs A time in the AM???
Is 2h 15 too much day sleep??? Last week he did a 2h 15 nap & slept 11.5hrs. I don't know what's changed. Nap is at the same time as last week & so is BT.
The only thing I can see is that his A to naptime is too long. But how can I shorten it when his nap is already early at 11.30am??? Or do I actually need to do this for a while? Pull the nap early & go with some EBT's?
I really don't know anymore.
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{{{hugs hun}}}}
I wouldn't think 2.15 is too much day sleep. I think with O it seems things are cumulative and its not one day leading to the next days wake up etc.
Could you pull the nap a bit early and let him sleep as long as he will and judge bedtime from there?
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Hiya
We had another 5.40am WU today so 10.5hrs sleep. After a week of 10ish hrs sleep he is now getting rather OT & has been very irritable, whiny & bursting into tears a lot today. We did nap at 11.15, he woke at 1pm, resettled at 1.10pm & slept til 1.30pm so 2h 5mins total sleep. BT was 6.30 & so far, so OT WU's. Am hoping an earlier night/shorter day might give us a longer night. FX'd
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Fingers and toes crossed for you xx
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Thanks. He had 2 crying NW's at 9.15 & 11pm ish & then was up for the day at 5.30am. Still early, but 11h sleep so an improvement on the last week. Seems like some earlier naps & EBT's are in order!