BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: - butterfly - on October 02, 2011, 20:07:11 pm
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I am so at the end of my tether - we have been following BW since DD was 4 months old. She has never really STTN but just recently it's worse than ever. She is waking up almost every hour and she cannot self settle - she stands up in her cot and waits for me to go in to lie her down. Sometimes she settles straight away but other times she doesn't and I cannot leave the room until she is asleep and even then she is waking within a few minutes of being getting back in bed.
the nw start anywhere from midnight to 1am and then every hourish until we get up at 7am - I AM COMPLETELY AND UTTERLEY SHATTERED. She naps well and self settles in the daytime and BT. I really don't know what else to do.
I have tried so many different things to help her sttn or at least more than 4 hours at a time. I've even slept on a mattress on her floor but this made very little difference. The most settled she is is when she's in my bed but I'm so against this.
someone please please help me as I really am ready to give up on BW as it is making me feel like a failure.
E 7am
A til10.30
S 10.30 til 11.30
E 11.30
A til 2pm
S 2 til 3pm
E 3.30 (bottle) dinner at 5pm
A 4 til 5 play. 5pm dinner. 6 til 7 - quiet play, bath, bottle, story
S 7pm
Thank you in advance
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{{{hugs}}}}
It is very tough. I think your LO is OT and i think there could also be a prop issue at play.
2 hours day sleep at 9 months is on the shorter end. Generally LOs would be doing 2x 1.5 hours and if they've hit the 2-1 switch then one 1 hour nap and one longer nap of at least 1.5 hours. Has your LO ever done naps longer than one hour?
What A time is she managing? From your EASY it is 3.5 then 2.5 then 4 hours so you probably need to even those out to get a longer nap at one of your nap times. My LO always preferred her longer nap in the morning but it depends on the LO.
This is also the prime age for separation anxiety so there could be a bit of that going on too. Is she clingy during the day too?
How many oz of milk is she getting in a day?
Any thing going on? Reflux, teeth, hitting any milestones? DOes she use a dummy? Does she settle independently for naps and bedtime?
Can your LO lie back down when she stands up in the cot? If so I think you would be best not lying her down. just pat the mattress and say your sleepy phrase and let her lie herself back down so that she can start realising she can do that herself.
It WILL get better. we'll have a think and see how we can help xx
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Thank you for your reply.
She has never napped for longer than 1 hour each but she does sleep independently for these. A time is around 3.5 for each naps (typo on original post)
She is a bit clingy when left in a room on her own but other than that she is happy to be with other people (not just mummy). She has about 16oz of formula a day and 3 meals and snacks also.
Milestones are 5 new teeth in the last couple of weeks. Starting to cruise (hence standing up in cot).
I do understand that these periods will end but I've not had a full night sleep for over 9 months now and at the moment she is not sleeping any longer than 4 hours straight after midnight.
with regards to her standing in the cot - she can sit back down herself but she hasn't learnt how to go from sitting to lying yet - maybe this is something we need to practice.
Thank you again so much for your help
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{{{{hugs lovely}}}}
I totally get it. My nearly 1 YO is a RUBBISH sleeper and has only started doing 4 hour stretches recently. I was so sleep deprived at 9 months that i could hardly focus. Thankfully it has been getting better or I was threatening to put her in the bin!
She has about 16oz of formula a day and 3 meals and snacks also.
I wonder is this the issue? DO you think she is hungry? LOs generally take 30 0z of milk at 6 months and it goes down to 24 oz when they are on 3 meals. 20oz a little bit after that. I would say at 9 months a lot of people may have dropped one milk feed but would still be taking 3 good milk feeds a day (so 20oz at the least, probably more). The continued waking could be hunger?
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She has never been a big drinker of milk.
She has 8oz at breakfast. mid morning bottle refused. mid afternoon is between 2 and 3 oz and then 4 or 5 oz at BT.
It is a possibility that she is hungry but we dropped the DF at about 7 months as she was only taking a couple of oz.
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What quantity of solids does she eat? Would that be taking away from milk intake? The issue can be that milk contains lots more calories per oz than solids at this stage and so even if they are eating lots of solids it wouldn't be the same calorie content as they would getting from the milk.
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I agree with Shiv that it could be she's not getting quite enough milk calories. You could cut out the snacks in favour of milk too, I have two refluxers who were on the lower end of milk intake and they have never been able to have much in the way of snacks or they just don't eat their meals ::)
You could try giving her milk before her nap rather than after it, give dinner a little earlier if you can and she should be a bit hungrier for her bedtime milk and take a bit more. If she has a decent bottle before her nap it may help her to sleep a bit longer too, milk before sleep seems to be ok at this age just watch you don't actually feed to sleep.
If you aren't using the fastest flow teats that would be worth changing too.
What do you think?
Laura
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I moved DD onto solids when she was 5 months because her milk intake fell to 20oz. For her still to be having 16oz alongside 3 meals and snacks is actually really good for her.
I have tried reducing solids but her milk intake does not increase. She is on the fastest teats. She just never been a big fan of milk even when she was breastfeeding she fussed alot.
I was sooo tired last night that I APOP and brought her into bed with me but even this didn't work - she continually kicked and fidgetted all night. The only time she really slept was when I wrapped both arms around her to 'swaddle' her and then she slept!!!
Anyway after that I'm not brining her into bed with me again as it made no difference to the amount of sleep.
I'm just completely lost now . . . . .
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Does she show any signs of reflux at all? http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0 I do tend to see reflux everywhere from experience ::) but fussy feeding, low milk intake and sleeping issues can be indicators that there are digestive issues.
Have a look at the link and see if anything rings a bell.
Laura
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Hi Laura
Thanks for the link - I really don't think it's reflux. Thanks so much for trying to help me and my baby.
She seemed to be really struggling with her teeth today so maybe there are some big ones coming through at the back.
How am I meant to get through this?
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Are you medicating for the teeth? I always found that ibuprofen at bedtime and then a dream med of calpol helped when things were at their worst.
{{HUGS}} though. You will get through it, finding the right routine will help but it's not an easy thing to do unfortunately.
Laura
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yes have been medicating. did give a dream med also and then more meds when she woke in middle of night.
I've been reading through some other pages also - looking for inspiration!!!
Her naps are only 1 hour each so she is having 2 hours total sleep per day. Do you think this needs extending? if so how do I do it?
Thanks for the hugs! :-)
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Yes, I think you need to extend the naps. Babies sleep in cycles of 45 mins so anything less than 2 cycles, about 1.5 hours really isn't a restorative nap. The better they sleep in the day (at this age 2 naps of about 1.5 hours) the better they sleep at night. If the get over tired during the day is has an impact on night sleep.
I have always used shh/pat with my two and a bit of PU/PD (more PD at 9 months). Are you familiar with these methods? If not, here are some links which will explain them, the shh/pat is for younger babies but will give you an idea.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=208990.0
This should be useful too http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85498.0
When you put her for a nap, I would be hovering near her room around the 45 min mark and see if you can get in and gently shh/pat her in the cot just as she is starting to stir. The aim is to help her from one sleep cycle to the next before she wakes too fully. I wonder if you would get better results if you shorten that first A time a bit too, she isn't sleeping well at night so she could be getting a bit OT before her first nap. Average A time for 9 months is about 3.5 hours, but if she isn't rested she needs a shorter A time. Have a look here for examples of routines http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0
What do you think?
Laura
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Thank you. I have nothing on for the next 2 days so I shall look at extending those naps.
She is currently crying and has only been in bed since 7.15pm so am I right in thinking this is OT??
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Generally speaking nightwakings in the early part of the night do mean OT - with my two it definitly does along with early wake ups and restless nights ::). They don't warn you about this stuff do they ;)
Have a look at those routines I posted and start tomorrow really watching her cues and the time and see if you can get her down for a nap before she gets OT and extend the nap to hopefully 1.5 hours. Remember too that the A time is awake time, not just activity so it's all the time from eyes open to eyes shut. If she has a restless night she will probably need her first nap about 3 hours after she wakes up, maybe even a bit earlier.
Does she have any props like a dummy/ paci by the way? Has she got a lovie that she sleeps with?
Laura
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Hi laura
Thank you so much - I'm feeling more in control now and less likely to leave her to CIO.
We had a really really rough night - waking every hour or less. Apart from we had a 2 hour stretch from 1.30 til 3.30am. She does have a lovie and she likes to suck it's ears!!
Everytime I went into her room she was stood up so I just lie her down and give her the lovie she is fine until I attempt to leave the room and then she starts complaining. Unless it's a scream I have decided to continue to leave the room in the hope that she will self settle likes she does when she first gets put down for her naps and BT. But I think she must be spirited cos the complaining generally turns into SCREAMS!!!
This morning so far
E 7.30am
A breakfast, playing and shopping
S 10.10am
I have sent my timer to go up at 45mins and try and extend this nap to 1.5 instead of the 1 hour we normally get.
I need to be strong, I know I do, sometimes I get so annoyed though :-( I'm taking deep breathes to prepare for the continual PD I'm gonna get in a few minutes!!!!!
Wish me luck!
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Good luck!
If you can get to her before she wakes you should be able to put your hands on her with a bit of gentle pressure and a lot of shhh to try and keep her asleep.
{{HUGS}} for the difficult night. We had a lot of nights like that when DS was at his worst with reflux, it is hard work. My DH was better with him at night, but we both spent a lot of time lying on his floor because it was easier in the end than going in and out.
Let us know how the nap goes, remember if she doesn't sleep a full 1.5 hours you will need to kepp the next A time a bit shorter and try again. It may take a good few days to get better habits so don't dispair!
Laura
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I'm sorry I've had to walk away as I was getting really upset.
She woke as soon as I put my hand on her - I tried patting and shushing but she kept standing up. I spent the next 10 minutes lying her down but she thought I was playing. I then had to change her bum as she had done a poo.
So then back to her cot for more games of putting down. She thinks it's funny but I'm so bloody tired that I am getting more and more wound up cos I don't know how many more nights of no sleep I can do.
I feel like I'm such a bad mum cos I just shouted at her go to sleep which of course has made her cry and now I've walked away cos I am crying too.
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So after 10 mins of calming down I went up and gently put her down and patted her and told her it was still sleep time and I think she is finally going back off.
This whole extending nap has taken half an hour so surely this is now classed as nap number 2 rather than extending number 1.
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Half an hour to resettle isn't bad at all - that's actually good for starting! It's still the same nap as she hasn't had enough A time to be classed as A time and she has gone back to sleep - that's great, well done!
If she is standing up try not to lie her down but get her to lie down herself, pat the mattress, use your voice - chose a set phrase and repeat it over and over so she is getting the message but you aren't engaging with her, so something like "lie down now, it's just time for sleep". If she isn't crying or upset you can leave her to it, she may resettle herself. Listen out for her and only go to her to help her settle if you can hear an "I need you cry".
Was she actually stirring when you put your hand on her? How long had she been asleep at that point?
How much family support do you have - can anyone have her for a night so you can catch up on some sleep?
Laura
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Thank you so much Laura
She had been asleep 45 mins when I went in - she was asleep but as soon as I placed my hand on her - ding went her eyes - I then tried patting and shushing but she just kept rolling over to get up. She wasn't crying or upset so in hindsight you are right I should have just left her to it but I didn't want her to think I'd just abandoned her. Although cos we played the put me down game and I got angry I ended up abandoning her anyway . . . . this is soooo hard. I never thought I would still have so many sleepless nights at 9 months as we have been doing EASY since she was 3 months old!!!
Not enough family support to have her overnight. I am just going to have to go to bed early to try and grab at least a couple of hours undisturbed before she starts her waking up.
She wasn't crying or upset
Oh I tried to give her a bottle last night but she wasn't interested in it. I cannot get her to have anymore milk than she already has although I have made up a bottle to give to her before her next nap.
I am really unsure how to combat this OT. To get 2 naps of 1.5 hours each day it will mean reducing her A time down to 3 hours and I had just increased it to 3.5.
(hugs) to you because I really appreciate your help.
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The thing is, for the moment to get her out of the OT you need to cut her A time, so 3 hours shouldn't be a problem if it gets you better naps and nights. Once you are getting better nights she will be better rested so you can increase her A time again.
See how the next nap goes, only go in if to her if you see her actually start waking up before 1.5 hours (although this may be too late now ;))
How long did she sleep for altogether this morning with the 2 part nap?
Laura
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Thanks Laura
She did 45 mins first part and 1 hour 2nd part. so she woke at 12.30pm
I have given her a bottle and put her down for 2nd nap of day at 3pm but she is currently still protesting - but seems to be made worse when I'm there so I've come away for a break again. I can get her to sit down in her cot but not lie down so I am having to physically lie her down when I go into her.
If she doesn't go sleep until 3.30 which is 5 mins away!! so I'm wishful thinking I think!! and she sleeps for 1.5 hours then it will be 5pm when she wakes - what would be a good BT in this case?
xx
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As it's late in the day now, if she wakes after 45-60 mins I wouldn't try to extend the nap, but I would get her to bed for about 6.30 at the latest. She would still have had more sleep than she normally has so it should help.
If she does go to sleep later than 3.30 maybe don't let her sleep longer than 1 hour and make bedtime her normal time or even 30 mins later depending on what time she has the nap.
I would also give pain meds at bedtime tonight to see if it is teeth waking her through the night.
Laura
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I do give meds every night since teething is really bad.
Ok so I went into her because I could hear a banging and her whimpering. She was sat in her cot with her lovie in her mouth - when I lay her down she went straight off to sleep. So I think in the night when she wakes up and stands up, she can sit down ok but she then doesn't know how to lay down!!! How on earth am I going to teach that!!
I have a feeling she will wake at 1 hour which will make it 4.30pm but as I gave her the bottle before sleep I can give her dinner at 5pm and then look at BT at 6.30pm tonight.
Does that sound like a plan?
How do I get her to learn to lay down?
Thanks :-)
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I spoke to soon - she has woken after 30 mins - I'm gonna try and put he back down for 30.
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no good - she is up. So BT is going to be 6.30pm at the latest.
Still not sure how I'm gonna teach her to lay down. :-(
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You can spend some of her A time with her in her cot helping her to lie down. Maybe sit her in the middle and put things behind her just a bit out of reach so she has to turn and reach and may lie down accidentally and realise she can do it. Not sure if that makes sense!
Hopefully she's asleep by now! Did she eat well and have a good bedtime bottle?
Laura
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Hi Laura
Yes I will do that practicing in the cot - hopefully we'll have fun!!
Tonight has been DISASTER!!!! She did eat well at teatime (4.45pm) but then I gave her a bath early, read some books and attempted to give her a bottle which she completely refused (6.15pm)
Put her down in cot 6.25pm and it took until 7pm for her to go to sleep. She kept standing up, sitting down but just couldn't lie down. She didn't want to be touched and me being in the room just encouraged her to keep standing up so in the end I sat outside the room and kept going in to lay her down. She pretty much screamed herself to sleep :-(
Should I attempt to give her the bottle she didn't drink as a DF?
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Ok so I attempted to give a bottle as DF but she wouldn't take any - this was at 10pm.
At 10.30pm - she woke up!! only to be laid back down in the bed and given her lovie.
We then had 3 and 1/2 hours of sleep yippeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
So she woke up at 2.10am 3.30am 4.30am 6.00am and then up for the day at 6.30am
These wakings were very brief - literally just laying her back down with her lovie. Really wondering what the problem is!!
I feel better for having some sleep though.
This morning before her nap - we were playing in the cot and trying to lay down but she is so super active she just kept rolling straight over to her front, then up to knees and then standing!!
I thought I'd have trouble getting her to sleep for her nap but she went very easily bless her. This was at 9am - after 2.5 hours A time.
Currently been asleep for 50 mins
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Couldn't get her back to sleep at AM sleep. She went 9 til 9.50am but she woke happy and playful.
We have done some more playing in her cot trying to get her to lay down. My dad came to visit over lunchtime and so A time was actually 4 hours. I settled her in the cot and left the room - I could hear her moaning and went back in and she was sat up sucking on her lovie's ear with her eyes closed. I lay her down and she went fast asleep. That was an hour ago so hoping she sleeps a bit longer. Hoping things get better once she learns how to lay down!!
Also I've stopped going into the room too quickly (during Mantra cry) as I found that I was disturbing her.
:-)
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That's good progress - well done!
If she was happy after 50 mins she could have done with a bit longer A time, so tomorrow you can try the first nap a bit later if she has a reasonable night sleep.
It is hard to know when to step in, some babies have more of a mantra cry than others so well done for holding back a bit. You just need to listen to the quality of the cry to know if it's a mantra cry or an "I need you" cry.
Did she sleep longer than 1 hour?
Laura
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Hi she slept 1hr 15 mins.
she did 3.5 A time before bed and went down like a dream but then woke an hour later. then 11.30pm 1.30am 3am 4.15am 6.15 then up at 7am.
all those wakings involved me laying her down and finding lovie.
first nap this am was after 3hr A time but she woke after 30 mins. tried to extend but we both got extremely upset after 30 mins of putting down. She seriously thought it was a game but she can't lay down on her own :-(
nothing is working and i am so tired that i am starting to get cross and shout :-( this is obviously totally unacceptable.
Maybe I should give BW a break and do some APOP to get rid of the OT?? I'm thinking of taking her to bed for PM sleep. She has only been awake 2hr and she is yawning and rubbing her eyes - not good for a baby who is nearly 10 months old :-(
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Hi there,
I just wanted to offer some moral support as my DD sounds just like yours. She is 7.5 mos old, has slept a 5 hour stretch only a handful of times in her life and is currently up every 1.5 hours at night. She is getting 4 top teeth so I know that's some of it but before teething her sleep was awful too. We've had some luck with PUPD at her first NW but she still wakes and needs me to do PUPD at least once to get her back to bed. A lot of times she's up 5 minutes after I leave (just as I'm drifting off again). Most nights I bring her to bed with me around 2 or 3 am but she is also restless in bed with me and the little sleep I do get is not very restful. :(
Her naps are short as well (35-45 mins most days) and she usually wakes up happy so it's impossible to extend.
I just want you to know that I completely understand how frustrating it is. I'm at the end of my rope, I consider doing controlled crying everyday and I get so frustrated with PUPD at nap times that I want to scream.
I have no advice, only hugs and the knowledge that this HAS to get better someday, right?
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Hi Butterfly,
I just read all your posts and cried the whole time. I'm in the same boat with my DS who is 5 months old. He is a 45 minute napper and wakes frequently at night for me to sh/pat him and reinsert the paci. I've reached the point where I become physically sick to my stomach every time he cries during a nap and especially in the middle of the night. I consider CIO everyday now but can't bring myself to do it. I was spoiled with my first DD and thought the BW was the reason but I've come to realize that all babies are different no matter how much you try to establish a routine.
I don't have any words of advice as I am going through the same thing but I wanted to let you know that I (and I'm certain many others) share your pain and frustration. I`m still holding on to the belief that it WILL get better. It`s clear that you need a break, though and don`t feel bad if you need to take her in bed with you. Keeping your sanity is more important and really, at the end of the day, there are far worse things one can do as a parent than the occasional co-sleeping! Besides that, your perseverence shows what a dedicated mom you are!!
Hang in there...
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Thank you so much AmandaLynn and ccynderella - it really means alot to me that you have both posted.
I didn't take her to bed this afternoon I put her down in her cot as usual and she only slept for 45 mins. When I went into her room she was standing and crying but as soon as she saw me she stopped and was smiling so I decided not to put us through the torment of trying to extend it. She has been grizzly this PM but I think that was a mixture of tiredness and hunger - I fed her early and she only ate half so I then gave her the other half at the normal dinner time.
She went to bed after 4 hr A time like a dream. She has currently been asleep for just over an hour so fingers crossed I have a good night.
Once again - thank you so much and I hope things get better for you both soon too xx
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Ok so yesterday she only napped 1hr 15 mins ALL day and we had the best night we've had in a while!
What does that mean?
Woke briefly at 11pm then slept til 4am 4.40 then 6.30 then up at 7.30!
I was expecting a terrible night with the bad nap day!
She's gone down for morning nap but I found her asleep sat up! Hope she learns to lie down soon
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Things are much the same here.
We've had a couple of nights where she has slept from 11pm til 4.30am without waking and then brief wakings from 4.30 until 7am although I believe it is a light sleep state at this point.
Today she napped 1.5 hrs am and then 45 mins pm. So we'll see what kind of night we have.
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I was just thinking about you today and wondering how things were going.
I started PUPD in the middle of the night with my DD and have seen some steady improvement. 1.25 hrs of PUPD the first night, 50 mins the next and 20 last night. She has slept anywhere from 2.5 to 3.5 hours after that and then I feed her and then it varies how long she stays asleep after that. I will eventually have to PUPD for those wakings too but I'm taking things slowly.
Two things I did that might be worth mentioning -- though I'm sure you've tried everything! One - it's gotten chilly here at night so I started covering her with a fleece blanket, which seems to help a lot. Two, I'm doing PUPD at the first NW and feeding at the second waking. Not sure if your LO is still needing a feed but I was doing it in reverse before and could never stay with PUPD in the middle of the night.
Hope you get some rest and some answers from others more knowledgeable than me! Supporting you in spirit!
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Thank you AmandaLynn. Glad the PUPD is working out for you and things seem to be improving.
We have just had two much much better nights. We haven't fed her in the night since we dropped the DF at around 7 months cos she just wasn't drinking any of it.
Our NW really don't take any of our time - it's literally just to lay her back down and give her the lovie. Last night it was 11.30pm and then 5.30am and then 7am!!! This is FANTASTIC for us!!! Feel like a new woman!!
DD sleeps in a sleeping bag so we don't use sheets or blankets.
Her AM nap today was 1.5 hours but then she refused her PM nap!! I was panicking at 4.30pm so I APOP a CN from her and she woke at 5.15pm. BT and sleep was 8pm tonight.
I'm wondering whether we might be heading towards the 2-1 transition (now she isn't so overtired from all the NW!!!)??
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Things were getting much better for us until . . . . . DD has a terrible cold :-(
She is starting to feel a bit better I think.
NW seem to be getting better by leaving her if it's just a mantra cry. Only getting a 'I need you now' cry about twice a night now (instead of every hour) and this is just to lay her back down as she is normally sat up!!
She is learning how to lay down herself though so hopefully I won't need to get up to help her do this for much longer!!!
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Hi Butterfly,
Just seen this thread after we were talking in a previous one. Glad to see you are getting there :o) and that LO is starting to get over her cold. The joys of developmental milestones, hey!
xx
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Not really sure what's going on but today EASY went like this
E 6.50am
A
S 9.10am (she was rubbing eyes and yawning) so put her down and she slept until 11am!!!
E 11am
A
S 2.30pm
E 3.30pm
A
S 6.50pm
All these sleeps she went down without any fussing.
Can't quite believe she slept for nearly 2 hours this morning - this is most definitely a first!!!!!
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Fantastic night last night yay yay yay
ONE YES ONE very brief NW at 11.45pm I'm talking 20 seconds laying her back down and that was it until 6.30am!!!
One happy Mummy!!! :-)
Hope tonight is as good.
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Well done you! Xx
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hell dear,
I know how you feel.. i have been going through this... still waiting for someone to answer my post though :)
lots of huggz and i will send you some positive energy.
my DS drinks around 16-18 oz of formula a day and he is 10 months old... he is in the 97% wieght and hieght.. he is a healthy big boy... so don't worry about your LOs milk intake.
if you have any family members or friends that can help baby sit druing the day so that you can get some sleep... do take advatage... you will think straight and have the energy to correct the issue at night time.
Sorry, i can't offer much advice but i will let you know what happens with my LO
hang in there...and take care of you
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sorry .. i meant to say "HI Dear"