BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Eleanorz on February 14, 2012, 16:01:40 pm
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Just want to mention lately my baby wakes up around 4 and talks to himself. He is not unhappy or anything just awake and talk. I used to feed him around this time, but now I discover he is not hungry as he only takes 70 something milk when I feed him. Shall I stop feeding him at this time? What shall I do? Do I even need to go into the room? Also I do a diaper change at this time ... It usually takes about an hour with my intervention ie changing feeding shuupatting. I suspect without me showing, he probably will get tired and sleep winthin an hour too. Any suggestion is appreciated!
Btw, day time feeding is a lot better now. No snacking, just feeding every 4 hours. Thx for the advices earlier!
Hello! I would appreciate any suggestion on the situation...
Zac is 4month2week old now and is a big boy (16.5pounds, 25.5inches at his 4month check up. He is ok with day naps and feeding, although not perfect. But he wakes up frequently during night since the beginning of the 4th month. In the 3rd month, he was already sleeping for 6,7 hours through, but then the regression, really don't know why.
His night sleep time used to be from 11 to11, now I am gradually adjusting it to from8 to 8. Here are the issues:
1. He eats a lot between 6 to 10. When I put him to sleep at 8, he will wake up at 830 to eat and then 930. I tried to get him eat more during day time, but he will not just take any more than what he wants. Is there any thing I can do to avoid these catchup feedings between 8 to 10?
2. after 10, he will wake up at 12, 2, 4,5, 7. I used to do night feedings, now As I want to train him sleep throughou the night, so I stop feeding him when he wakes up inth evening, rather I will just do pup or shhhpat. But I will feed him at 12 as a df. Do you think I shall feed at 2 instead of 12, or I shall stick with 12 and add another feeding at 4? I am just afraid he will be hungry if he does not eat until 8 after 12? According to Tracy 's plan df at 11 and wakeup at 7, I should be ok with 12 to 8?
3. How to get him eat more during the dAy? Sometimes he is so into his fist and all sorts of plays
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Sorry, click the post button too soon...just want to finish the last question, he is not interested in eating during the day, anything I can do?
I am trying to have him follow easy, with e all over the place depending when he feels like eating.
8 wake up
10-12 nap
2-4 nap
6 catnap
8 sleep
Is there anyway I can regularize the e?
Thx in advance!
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Hi there and welcome to the boards. :)
So without seeing the E part of your EASY is your DS roughly feeding every 3 hrs? I would imagine your issues are down to the 4 month growth spurt (GS) which is a huge one. At this point LOs tend to want to feed a lot more but also increase their A times to around 2 hrs (which your DS has done). At this stage it is usually time to push your LO's feeds to every 4 hrs instead of 3 (4 hr EASY). This actually usually means that LO will take more at each feed because they are more hungry by the 4 hr mark. Have a look at this link, which explains a lot more... http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0
This link also explains how you can move to a 4 hr EASY in stages, as some LOs can't quite manage the jump from 3 to 4 hrs and have to d0 3.5 first... http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.0
Hope that helps. Let me know what you think.
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Thanks. But the thing is Zac does not eat according to the timetable given to him. Sometimes despite he has not eaten for 7 hour, he may still decide to have 60ml then eat his fist. It's very hard to ask him to eat only at certain times. What to do? I think he has passed the gs.the problem is when he had gs, the old routine was broken, and after gs, the routine is lost. I am so frustrated.
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So it seems that he is filling up on milk at NF rather than taking it in the day do you think? Does he take a big amount during NF or not? your routine looks good so it is just this feeding that we need to get straight.
I would probably limit the NFs as you have started doing and settle instead with shush/pat. So if you feed at 8pm before bed and he takes a good amount then I would not feed again before 11.30pm and if possible I would do this as a DF (so feed even if he doesn't wake for it). Then I would not feed again before 3am and then not before 6.30am and for both of these NFs I would only feed IF he wakes. Does that make sense? You can stretch it to 4 hrs if you think he can cope without being too hungry. Hopefully this will then encourage him to feed every 4 hrs in the day and you can start stretching out those NFs and dropping some. How does that sound?
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My original plan was to eliminate nf, but keep the df at 12. So he would go to sleep between 8 and 9 and have a df at 12 then morning feed at 8. However after 3 day experiment, I have the following doubts/questions
1.is it too much to have him sleep 8 hours straight, from 12 to 8? Will he be hungry? 1st day I didn't feed until 8, and he had frequent NWs between 3 and 8. I don't know if it was due to hunger or not. But after 8 at his morning feeding, he only took 60ml ! And don't seem to want to eat too much during the day? Am I ruining his appetite by eliminating the NFs? 2nd day, I fed him at 745 when he was still half sleepy and he took 120ml, then another 160 ml at 940. 3rd day, I took 150ml, but refused to eat again before the first nap. Should I add one nf at 4am? Or shall I just keep my original plan? I don't want to affect his milk taking by doing the sleep training? Do you thin he eats less during the day because he gets used to be hungry due to e elimination of nf?
2. Shall I Chang diaper during the night sleep time , 8pm to 8 am in my case?
Thanks!
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He does not take as much as the day feedings in the night feeding.
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I would think that at this age to just drop all NFs when your DS is taking such a small amount in the day is asking a lot of him. That is why I said to not feed before a certain time but to still feed yk? Also have you tried daytime feeds in a darkened room with no distractions?
Hun I have really limited experience of this so I am going to get more eyes on this for you. Hang in there.
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I would do as Bex suggested to be honest, don't feed until a good few hours has gone by. In the day, at 4 months he needs to be on a 4 hour EASY, so you need to start in the morning and feed when he wakes up and make the next feed 4 hours later. If you are aiming for a 8-8 sleeptime I would do a DF at 11pm at the latest (it can disturb sleep as much as help if done too late) and then resettle until 3am at the earliest. That way he should be able to go from 3am until wake up time.
If you can get a good first feed he should be able to go 4 hours in the day. If his first feed isn't great then hold him out for as long as you can to get as close to 4 hours as possible so he will be hungry for the feed. If you have limited his nightfeeds this should be fine. I would think that the reason he can go so long in the day is because of the nightfeeds, he has his day and night turned around.
What do you think?
Laura
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Thank you both! I am going to try what you suggested. I am going to do df and a nf tonight and will also try the day feeding in a dark room.
However For df, I was thinking of doing at 12, as his last day feeding is most likely at 8. Laura : after 11 is going to disturb the sleep rather help?
Also shall I change diaper during the night?
Regarding try to day feed at the 4hour interval, Right now I offer at the 4 hour time, but if he does not finish the bottle, And ask for it an hour later, I will give to him, as otherwise he won't get to nap. Is it ok?
Thanks again!
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Tracy said that the DF is beat done between 10 and 11 and any later can disturb sleep more than help.
If you feed him and then top him up an hour later it will be encouraging him to snack and then he won't be properly hungry by his next feed so won't take a full feed again and will need another top up. It's better to try and get him to take a good feed at the 4 hourly intervals. How much is he taking at a t feed now? What flow teat is he on?
Laura
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He takes about 180ml per feed when he behaves normal. Sometimes he took more like240ml, sometimes he took less if he decided to split his meal in two. He now takes around 1000ml per day (used to be a liitle more than this).
I will give an update in the morning on his NWs tonight (I had another terrible night).
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Right now he uses the born free level 2 nipple, which is for 3-6month.
Below is how he does yesterday and the NWs. I also have questions in brackets. Pls help me, pls.
E 745 - 150ml
S 945-1145
E 1145 -90ml
E 1330 - 160ml
S 1350 - 1550
E 1730 - 70 ml
E 1830 - 110 ml
S 1830 - 1900 (usually when I shall put the baby to sleep after a cn?)
E 1900 - 80ml
E 2030 160 ml
Sleep for the night at 9
Df 11 - 160ml
(he is doing 2 hour a time and 2 2hour nap and a 30 min cn. Does this sound ok? Should I maybe shortened the second nap to 1.5 h and increase the a time?)
Here are the nws. Terrible!
3 nws from 9 to 10 - very easy to settle, I just picked him up and pat and put down, one time I used pacifier, he used for 10 sec and go back to sleep.
1 nw at 11, so I did df. I think I could settle him by pupd or pac, but as suggested I did a df.
Woke up at 145. Took me about half hour to settle. Used pupd and pacifier.
Woke up at 420. I did a nf, he only took 110ml. I did a diaper change first. His eyes were closed in the beginning, but then he woke up after the change. He went back to sleep easily after the feed. ( shall I not change the diaper)
2 nws past 7, used pupd and pac to settle and went back to sleep. I woke him up at 8 to start the day.
he wasn't doing such nws in the past. Would the reason be my pupd and the use of pac becomes a prop? He used tp sleep for several hours until he asks for a feed, after feed, he went back to sleep. As now I an trying to eliminate the ifs and usedpupd and pac to settle, will he now depend on these to pass the sleep cycle?
I am in deep self doubt - is the sleep training making things worse- more nws and less milk intake? Pls help me.
Thanks
Eleanor
from 10
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Btw, he ate 980ml in total yesterday, is this ok?
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Hi again, OK I actually think that your A times and naps are fine and it is really the milk feeds in the day that is causing your issues. I totally agree with Laura that you probably need to avoid the split feed as he is snacking instead of taking a decent sized feed.
Also what jumps out is that PU/PD doesn't work effectively when used with a paci. So that could well be where your problem lies there. If LO has a paci then you will need to use shush/pat instead. HTHs.
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To feed only at certain times, will that cause the baby to eat less? He may decide that half full is ok and then gradually reduce his appitite, will it be possible?
Today at the morning feed, he ate 150ml. Then he turned to eat his fist. Right before the nap, he had another 70ml. Should I not to give the 70ml before the nap? Then I am afraid he will not settle for nap, or if he does he would wake up earlier. Also, for these timed feeds shall I wait for his hunger sign before offering? Oftentimes he does not seem to be interested in eating after wake up rather he will play and eat his fingers and fist first.
Thanks
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An update of last night, it got better.
Asleep at 9, Woke up a few times, 2between 9 and 10, 1 at 315, very easy to settle. Not sure if they are really wakeups, as he didnt even open the eyes. Fussed at 4, looking for fingers. I use woombie so he can't break it. He was trying to suck his fingers under the fabric then cried, I fed him at 440 and changed diaper. he took110ml and fell sleep relatively easily. Then slept till 8 when I woke him up.
Questions:
1. Since he only took110ml at his nf in the past two days, shall I work towards to drop the feed? The risk is he may not sleep well between that time and wake up time. I feel he was more looking for fingers than milk. Also this may affect his daily milk consumption, if he decides not to add his nf to the df. He had 1000ml yesterday in total
including the 110 nf.
2. Shall I change diaper for the both df and nf? It did wake up him more when I changed at the nf this morning. Thoughts?
Thanks
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Hi there, if you think his diaper needs changing then yes change it. If it is soaked then chances are it will wake him anyway if you don't change it. I always used to change before the NF so that if it did wake DD up properly she would get sleepy again when feeding. Maybe you could leave it during the DF and just change at NF if he isn't too wet. Only you can make this call really.
As for dropping the NF, for now I would just work on trying to get him to take more in the day at the 4 hr mark. You could certainly offer less for the NFs and this will encourage him to take more in the morning when you start your day. But I would just tackle one issue at a time for now, just my opinion though.
Then as for feeding every 4 hrs reducing his appetite, believe me if he is hungry he will eat. He will get what he needs in 24 hrs but ATM he has that mixed up and is wanting to take good feeds at night because he is only snacking in the day.
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Thx Bex! Tonight my husband is taking the turn, so that I can take a break. I need it!
I will report how they do tomorrow.
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Here is last night.
Asleep at 850, fussed a few times between 9 and 10, had a df at 1125, woke up at 4 and had a feed, fussed at 6, and woke up for the day at 745. Not too bad considering what happened in the past.
Questions:
1. Yesterday he had a catnap between 1807 and 1838. What time shall I put him in bed and aim to sleep? 2 hours after 1838 or 1.5 hour? I put him in bed around 815 and he had a feed and slept at 850. Is it too late? Did it cause the wakings between 9 and 10? Ot? Yesterday His morning nap was 2 hours, afternoon nap was 1hour 45 min, in the morning he got up at 8.
2. He had 130ml in the 4am feed, but only had 70ml in his morning feed and cried for the morning nap. Now he is sleeping. Since he got up 15 min earlier today, did the tiredness cause the lost of appetite in the morning?
3. Right now I try to set the wu time as 8. But for sleep time, it varies and depends on when he finishes his last feed. Is this ok? Or shall I adjust the wu time according to the sleep time? If so, shall I aim for 12 hours sleep time or 11 hours? Right now if he is still sleeping at 8, I will wake him up. But if he happens to game up earlier, say 745, I will just let him start the day. Just wondered if I am doing ok this way.
Thank you again!
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Really you want to try to aim for a 12 hr day and a 12 hr night. This is the ideal though and not all LOs will do a 12 hr night. My DD always used to do 11 or 11.5 hrs, so our day was 13 or 12.5 hrs to make up for this. So if your DS is waking at 8am and usually does an 11 hr night then your BT would be 9pm, does that make sense?
Personally I used to find that a BT that late would make my DD OT though, so we used to WU at 7am so that BT was at 8pm at the latest. She much prefered a BT between 7 and 8pm and no later.
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Thanks Bex. I will try to push the bed time a little earlier. The chanllege is we will also need to move our dinner time eralier. These two days zac woke uo around 730, so really he is getting only 10 hour sleep considering the nw time. Hope moving bed time earlier will make him sleep longer.
Eating is still the same. It is a lot easier to feed him when he is sleepy. And he takes a big volume before bed time. When he is active, it is so much harder. He is mostly taking ebm, but since he is taking less I am thinking to switch to fomular, as It is thicker. Do you think it makes sense? Or I shall stick to bm?
Also, in case ot teething, do you recommend We do anything to relieve his uncomftness?
Thx again
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For teething we find that ibuprofen works better than paracetamol. So we would give a dose about 30 mins before BT with DD's last bottle when she was teething. Just bear in mind that teething can put a lot of LOs off their food and milk anyway, so this may be having an effect ATM.
As for swapping to formula, only you can decide that really hun. There is no reason why you should need to swap to formula or why it would work any better than EBM. Some people do say that formula fills babies up more, if you want to give it a go you could try it for his last bottle before bed and see.
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Thanks Bex. The day before yesterday was very promising. Zac slept from 9, did a df at 1130 and sleep till 550. I then fed him and he went back to sleep again till I woke him up at 8. But yesterday was not that great. Did a df at 1130, but had nws at 2 and 3, fed at 4, nw at 5, then sleep till I woke him up at 815.
May I ask a few more questions?
1. For df, should I aim to feed as much as the baby can take? Last night I didn't as I was afraid of waking him as it took a long time to drink the bottle. I guess this is why he had nw sound 2. :(
2. For the nf I give sound 4, should I also aim to feed as much as he can take or just enough to keep him asleep?
3. 50% of the time, baby is still sleeping at the wake up time. I will wake him up in this case, but shall I? I did try to get him sleep earlier, but he always finish his last bottle at 830 so he almost always fell asleep around 9, what to do?
4. Also for nap, shall I wake him when the nap time is due?
Thx a lot!
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Hi, yes I would let him take as much as he wants for the DF as this will hopefully fill him up for the night. If he is asleep when taking it I doubt the amount he takes will wake him up during the feed. As for the 4am NF you could limit this as this will then encourage DS to take his morning feed when he wakes and feed more in the day.
As for advice on waking him from naps and in the morning I would need to see your EASY as it stands now to see what is best. Can you post it with E,A and S times and length of naps, etc please? We used to have a set wu time and found that worked best to set DD's body clock. Lets look at your EASY and see hey?
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Hi,Bex,
This is the easy I try to implement and what really happened yesterday is in the brackets.
WU 8am (I woke him up at 815when he was still asleep)
E/A 8-10 am (815 -1022) *as I mentioned before it took him a long time to drink his bottle, he will eat, play then eat, etc.
S 10-12 (1022-1152)
E/A 12-2 (1153-205)
S 2-4 (206-344)
E/A 4-6 (345-615)
S 6-630 (615-645)
E/A 630-830 (645-845)
S between 830 and 9
As Zac is towards 5 month now, shall I increase the a time? If yes, shall I reduce the nap time to make up the time? Although I want him to sleep for 2 hours in both his morning and afternoon nap, but sometimes he will only sleep for one hour and a half. If he woke up within 1 hour, I will try to get him sleep to extend the nap, but if he had one hour and a half, then I don't bother. Is it ok? Also I am wondering what caused him to wake up sometimes at the 45 mark, ot? Ut?
I also want to tell you about last night. He drank 280before sleep and Drank 120 in the df, then he woke up around 245. Since he was awake, I fed him but he only took 70ml. He also fussed at 415 and 640, but I used pacifier and got him sleep again. And I woke
up him at 8. I guess he was nit hungry, but why he kept waking up? Adain ot? Ut?
Yesterday he drank 1110ml in total, that is a mix of ebm and fomular. Does this sou d right?
Thanks again.
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He just cried from his morning nap, I gave him the pacifier and he fell asleep. I am just worried that he is not learning sleep independently. Sometimes he can fall sleep without pacifier, sometimes he screams for it. Sometimes I think I gave the pacifier to him too soon to get him sleep. What to do? Also he wears woombie for sleep, so I won't be able to teach him to replug any time soon.
He does spit out the pacifier once he is ready to sleep though
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Hi, TBH I really think that your routine looks fine. The 1.5 hr naps are common at this age and your DS is getting enough sleep in the day so I would not worry. I do wonder if your last A time is a little long before BT after a 30 min CN, so maybe if you moved his BT 15 mins earlier that may help. As for the 45 min wu, again this can be an age thing and developmental. Eventually he should learn to transition through sleep cycles and sleep for longer, if you can extend then great. If naps are 1.5 hr I would not bother trying to extend them though as that is a decent nap time anyway.
I really do think that your NW issues are still down to these feeds. I notice that he is still 'snacking' in the day, so although he is taking a lot of milk over a 24 hr period he is getting so used to having it so regularly that he then wants this at night too yk? I really think that you need to try to get him to take as much of his bottle in one go for feeds in the day as you can and then wait it out as close to the four hr mark as you can to feed him again. If he is eating then playing, eating then playing his body is getting used to being constantly full, so he is bound to then get hungry when you expect him to go long stretches in the night.
From looking at his feeds in the night I think that you are right and he isn't actually that hungry, but I think again he is just wanting to snack by taking small amounts, as this is what he is used to.
So, how about if you try to hold of the daytime snacking and feed only every 4 hrs (or as close to as possible) in the day and then only feed at night if it has been at least 4 hrs since the last feed? I would use shush/pat to resettle at other times. What do you think?
As for the paci it may become a prop if you keep replugging to get him back to sleep, although at the moment if he is spitting it out before he falls asleep it isn't a prop yet. HTHs.
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I agree with Bex, the snacking is probably part of your problems at night. A 1.5 hour nap is fine too - it's 2 sleep cycles which is a restorative sleep.
What do you want to do? Are you going to try and push the feeds to 4 hours and stop the snacking? It will be tricky for the first few cycles as he isn't used to going long but a bottle feed should be finished within about 20 mins so you can start by stopping the feed by 20 mins finished or not and then hold him out for as long as you can before the next feed. See how long he lasts and if he takes at least as much as he did the first feed you can hold his next feed 10/15 mins longer the next time.
We have given you some suggestions so if you decide what your plan is going to be we can hold your hand while you carry it out! Hope you have a good night!
Laura
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Thanks both. I am trying implementing the 4-hour non- snacking feeds today and will report back.
Btw, last night was a disaster with many nws. He had improved a lot In the past, but suddenly this. A sleepless night for me.
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Just want to add in that formula will not make baby sleep better or longer than EBM. Breastmilk does digest faster (about 60 mins) but formula is digested in about 90 mins... not exactly hours longer to ensure more sleep ;)
If he is doing well with the EBM, stick with it.
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An update on yesterday - I tried to feed every 4 hours only. Below are the feeds.
440am 160ml
915am 150ml
1300pm 160ml
1700pm 160ml
1930-2030 280ml
1130 df 140ml
Total 1050ml
As you can see the exception is the feed before bed time, I was trying to get him drink
as much as possible, make sense or it was not good?
As to the nws, last night was better than the day before yesterday.
1. Fussed at 954 and I used pacifier and he went back to sleep.
2. After the df, he fussed at 1229 and 128, I think it was due to gas. I burped him in both cases.
3. He woke up around 430, and started talking to himself happilly and loudly. This was something new. He recently developed habit to " talk". I fed him (he drank 120ml) and changed the diaper and he went back to sleep.
4. Fussed at 636, and I used pacifier to get him back to sleep.
This morning I lost track of time as I was too tired, I woke up around 840 and I woke him up at 9 instead of normal wu time at 8.
This morning I fed him around 1030, he took 180ml and then had a nap around 1 hour.
I need your advice on the following:
1. Regarding feeding time, do I need to feed at the same time everyday? I know ideally I shall feed after he wakes up , but he is just not interested in eating after getting up. Also unless I feed right after he gets up, it can't be every 4 hours for every feed.
2. Regarding df, although I burped him after feeding, because he is in deep sleep, he usually won't burp. But the gas is still there and will cause nws later. Will it be better I cancel the df, and feed around 2am or whenever he woke up and then feed again at 8? I just don't want to interrupt his sleep.
3. I normally wake up him at 8, but is it ok if he is still sleeping at 8, I let him wake up naturally but get him up by 9 for sure and then do a shorter nap in the morning? Will it affect his bed time or get him confused ?
Thanks
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Hi, so sorry that your reply has been missed on here. How are things going now? Have you managed to stick to the 4 hr feeds in the day and how are your nights?