BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: riverratmomma on February 15, 2012, 00:49:20 am
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My 14 week old son wakes up every half hour (if I'm lucky every hour) during the night. We just learned about BW's EASY a couple weeks ago and have been trying to implement the method and principles. It works great during the day, he will nap for 30 mins, then I go in when he cries and shh/pat him until he is asleep. He then will sleep only another 30 min to an hour. The problem is that the same pattern seems to continue all through the night (except E and A). We established a bedtime routine (after he wakes from last nap he is fed, then shower, then books until tired, then do 4s's to put to sleep) but he still wakes up. I'm wondering if we are putting him to bed too late. He gets up for the day at 9:30 and gets put to bed about 11:30pm. But we've tried earlier and he just keeps waking up crying every 20 minutes until midnight. Please please please please help! I've been looking through this forum and in the BW book trying to find the answer. All I know to do now is when he wakes up crying to go in and shh/ptt until he falls back asleep. Our whole family really needs a good nights sleep soon! Thanks.
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Hi, I think he's going to bed way too late. We aim for a 12hr night and a 12hr day. Body rhythm-wise, it's probably better to have him in bed around 7pm and getting up for the day around 7am. He sounds like he's really overtired.
I'd stick with sh/pat when he wakes.
I wonder if he may also be in pain - does he have reflux? If so, is it medicated and under control? Does he sleep better when he's more upright, like in a car seat?
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I'll try to put him to bed earlier... should I just go for putting him to bed at 7pm or move bed time back 15 minutes each day? And the car seat is about the same, about 30 minutes to an hour at the most. We took him the the doc a couple times and he doesn't think he has acid reflux.
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I'd go straight to 7pm bedtime and then get him up for the day at 7am - push his awake time in the morning so he's not tacking the morning nap onto his night sleep and resettle the OT waking. Take him for a walk outside in the morning if you can... seems to help them set their body clock to differentiate day and night.
Let's know how you go :)
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Okay we'll try it. one more question: is it bad for LO to start the day off at 9 rather than 7? And go to bed at 9 rather than 7? I have a morning class from 7:30-9, so I BF him at 6:30, go to class and then come back to feed him by 9, 9:30....
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Thank you for your help! I really appreciate your quick replys and advise!
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Generally speaking, 12 hours is 12 hours. Probably to not be going to bed at 9PM - I read someplace a long while ago (and of course now I can't remember where, sorry!) that it's best to get as much sleep before midnight as possible.
That said, if 9-9 is working, then by all means go with it for now.
I also wonder about reflux; why does your doctor think it isn't? I had to really bully to get Josie seen in the first place (once she spewed in the exam room there really was no question LOL), but some docs don't know about silent reflux either. Can you give any more details about that? J's reflux was at its worst from about 3 to 3-1/2 months, but some babies don't outgrow it by 4 months, even without visible spitup.
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Hi just jumping in to maybe give some other suggestions...
It sounds like he is OT. If he is only napping 30 min at a time and staying up for a 14hr day, that is too much for his little mind and body to handle. I would pat/sh him as much as possible and maybe even rock him to sleep, whatever you need to do to get some really good naps into him. If you can get a few good naps then it will help get over being OT. Once he is well rested, then it is best to stick with a 12 hr day as pp said. Also it may help if you post your EASY so we can see whats going on.
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(HUGS) It definitely sounds like discomfort to me hun, Z would wake 20mins into sleep screaming in pain, waking this frequently is unusual for a well/settled baby IM. I think Deb is right in that this could be silent reflux related, or otherwise a problem with wind/gas, intolerance's.
Does your LO exhibit any of these symptoms?
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0
How are your LOs poops?
Does your LO have a paci?
Are you Bottle or BF?
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Thanks for all the help! :) sorry for the delayed response - I was taken away from the computer for a bit. Deb- I don't know, or remember what the doc's reasoning was. When we asked the doc just said he would be crying every time we laid him flat for any amount of time?? DS will play on his back fine without crying and falls asleep fine, it's just getting him to stay asleep that is the problem. I've tried having him sleep in the car seat and sleeps the same amount in there as well. I have not heard of silent reflux before... Zacmume- No, when he wakes he'll cry but it's not a pain cry, he starts to sputter and then works himself up. I will wait a moment in hopes that he'll soothe himself, but 98% it will escalate into a real cry and I'll go in, Shush/pat, and he'll go right back to sleep. For another 30 minutes that is :). I will look at the link and let you know about the symptoms. His poops are a brownish/yellowish straw in color, somewhat watery with the little curds too. He poops regularly whenever he eats. He does have a paci, but only will take it when he's going to sleep, and even then sometimes he'll refuse it. Not a big paci boy. And he is BF exclusively. We've tried having DH feed him pumped milk by the bottle and that worked up until about a month ago. Now he will refuse it or just play with the nipple- not eat form it. Mama C I'll post the easy schedule here is a moment: going to try and put him down earlier right now :) crossing my fingers that it works!! Thanks again for all your help!
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Here's my notes from today. The last few days are similar except we were out and about a lot more during his wake times:
tuesday:
down@ 11:30pm (mon night)
asleep by 12am
woke up @ 12:20am
ssh/pat. attempted dream feed: no success. asleep by 12:40
up @1:30
asleep by 1:45
(woke up at 2:30, self soothed)
up @3:30
asleep by 3:50
up @ 4:00
asleep by 4:20
up @5:00
asleep by 5:20
up @5:40
asleep by 5:50
up @6am , fed in sleep
8am woke up (diaper)
8:30 asleep
9 am awake for day, fed
-played in baby gym, in bouncy chair with music, played with him
10:45 nap. woke up once, then back to sleep @ 11:20.
woke up @ 12:20pm, fed
sat in bumbo w/mom in kitchen, talked to himself in his chair during some quiet time
asleep by 1:30p (tired by 1:20)
up @ 2:30 (DH got him up, he thought he was done with his nap)
walk in park, 15 minute cat nap,
fed @ 3:30pm
gym time, moby time, looked at painting in bouncer, played with him.
4:40 nap,
up @ 6pm
fed@ 6:15pm
(mom took a very needed nap)
daddy time until 7:30pm, then nap
woke up at 8:30, fed him
now getting him in the shower and then doing bedtime routine. Later than I wanted, will do it much sooner tomorrow night.
I will look at this again here in a bit after I shower him/ get him in bed...
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he would be crying every time we laid him flat for any amount of time?
IMO and from experience this isn't true really :-\ I suspect the Dr doesn't have much experience with refluxing babies. My DS slept on his back all night long fine, but was a write off all day. Reflux can be a bit like that, it doesn't necessarily last all day and night, but usually it is worse at night, or during the day...for for us it was from 4am-4pm
he starts to sputter and then works himself up
When you say splutter, is it like he is choking on a tiny bit of milk? Silent reflux can occur up to an hour after a feed, for us 20min WU during naps were usually interrupted with a bit of acidy milk coming partially up the throat causing a gagging/gurgling noise followed by crying.
Ill be back late, gotta go feed DS :P :-*
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:) sputter as in more of short bursts of sound- like he's protesting something, a "awut! (pause) awut! (pause) awut!" for a few moments, then transforms into a longer cry, then it just escalates. He will keep crying harder unless I go in.So i try to catch him as it's turning from protest to cry, he settle s down faster that way. Every time I hear him stir on the monitor I hold my breath and pray that he will settle back down. Before the protesting I can hear him breathe a bit more... forcefully?? a couple snorts maybe, then fast breathing, then the protests start.
I tried putting him to bed earlier tonight (be it only an hour and a half earlier, I know that it needs to still be sooner from your responses but that's just what happened tonight. It was my bad-I didn't mean to fall asleep but DH let me take a nap. I have had hardly any sleep lately) so we will see if it helps a little. I'm hopeful that it will! But I am now aware that I need to make more of a change to his bedtime/wakeup timing.
I am wondering if I am overstimulating/making him overtired. From the responses it sound like it could be that or the silent reflux (I will call my doc in the a.m. to ask him) DS loves to look at new things, just stare and stare and stare, and used to get fussy staying at home, so I started taking him out to different places each day. He would calm down and just stare at new things and people. At church or other's homes he is very good and gets passed around. It is rare that he will turn away from something. He just stares at them or his surroundings. I thought it was making him happier but now I'm wondering... In the past he would just get fussy for a bit then konk out on my shoulder or where ever he was. And in my ignorance I thought that was a good thing. Now I'm learning that maybe it's not... I tried having take longer naps today (which only happened this morning), and stayed home to help keep him from more stimulation, and he has seemed happier. But does OT/Overstimulation cause that many wake ups?? Maybe a combo of both...
Thanks for all the help. I feel incredibly lost and incompetent, it's good to get feedback. :)
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I would pat/sh him as much as possible and maybe even rock him to sleep, whatever you need to do to get some really good naps into him. If you can get a few good naps then it will help get over being OT.
Would rocking be introducing a prop? And how do you know when he's "over being OT"? I'm willing to do whatever, I'm just fearful of adding more baggage that I'll need to get him out of hte habit of later...
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Quote from: riverratmomma on Today at 04:14:21 PM
he would be crying every time we laid him flat for any amount of time?
IMO and from experience this isn't true really I suspect the Dr doesn't have much experience with refluxing babies.
ITA here. My girls were fine when laid down sometimes and horrific at others and there was absolutely no pattern to it.
This amount of NWing is also telling me discomfort. We had to push for our twins to be taken seriously and tbh, a LOT of Dr's aren't overly familiar with reflux and/or intolerances. I'd highly recommend if this continues to go back and push for either a second opinion or a referral to a paediatrician.
As far as introducing a prop, that's where we call it Accidental Parenting On Purpose or APOPing. When a lo is in discomfort they also commonly get very OT'd and a very vicious cycle begins. APOP'ing is highly recommended if your lo can't stay asleep long enough to get proper rest. I'd do whatever you can to get him to have some good long naps and get everyone some sanity.
You are not incompetent sweetie. You're parenting a lo who I think is in some discomfort
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My big girls were the biggest performers ever when they were out of the house. At the Dr's office, they laughed and played it up while at home screamed the house down all day. I get that, I really do.
The sounds you are describing do sound like reflux to me. E would get a sound going that was similar to a sink drain :(. She would be up all night but have an aweseome 3 hr nap during the day and I let her have it just for all of our sanity.
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Thanks for posting Vicki :D You reminded me with the long nap thing that they often sleep well at night or day, rarely both. Mine STTN from share exhaustion at 10 weeks, then would wake starved but he just couldn't sleep during the day.
He also was a darling for my Dr, luckily she had a refluxer so understood. I guess what we are trying to say is that a refluxer doesn't have to vomit a lot, or hate being flat or scream in pain all the time to be in discomfort ;)
Try to take some notes of when LO is unsettled and be aware of the symptoms to see if they start to jump out at you. A classic one is crying on the bottle/breat and aching during feeds or when in pain.
I would APOP as much as you need to right now. Reflux or OT the sleep is more important at the moment than independent sleep just for now :-*
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I will call the pediatrician first thing tomorrow morning. My DH just brought something up: today DS has been smiling and happy, attentive and talkative the entire time he's awake. Not fussy, but happy. If a kid is OT do they do that?I just read your post and it's good to hear that he's not the only one that is a performer. :) It's just at night and naps that he's having a hard time. And he has just begun spitting up the last few weeks, usually about 30 mins after he eats.... i had just assumed that it was normal. He'll just a bit fussy and act uncomfortable for a few minutes, spit up and then grin like mad. It looks like a few teaspoons at a time. I will call the ped tomorrow and just do what I can to keep him asleep and happy tonight. any tricks on keeping him happy and sleeping tonight? I'm wondering if I should just let him sleep in the car seat or in my arms while I'm in the rocker.... Thank you! You guys are wonderful! So amazing of you to share your knowledge and experience. It is very appreciated :)
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Have a sniff of the spill...does it smell acidy at all? Curdled?
The OT can be hard to tell with some LOs, if your L is an angel/textbook he may just cope well with it.
I should do whatever works to get LO to settle, car seat is probably not the best if there is another way. Is your Los cot elevated? I would possibly see if you can sneak into His room before he usually stirs and see if you can get him back off quickly. If he can get into a good deepsleep he may sleep longer. We used to rock in a rocking chair for like 45 mins on bad nights then PD into cot. if your LO will take a paci I would use it to help settle too :-*
Let us know how the dr visit goes :-*
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It does smell very curdled when he spits up, and there are large curdle pieces it. Not sure what acidy smell like, but you can smell curdled milk on his breath and clothes within a few inches, even on his breath after I change him you can still smell it. The spit up is part watery, part very thick creamy chunky stuff that's hard to wipe off clothing. Like chunks of semi-dried laytex paint
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Just to give you an idea, my girls would projectile vomit and it would smell like rotten mushroom soup. E never spit but her burns smelled like rotten applesauce aol it really can vary so the acidity is a big key.
and when you're making your notes, try to focus on behaviours more than the bad sleep. Its a huge indication to you but many Drs have heard a lot about bad sleep and tend to dismiss it quickly. Look at his behaviour when he's waking and really mention that coughing noise. That screams reflux to me.
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I will- I'll make sure he gets in to the pedi tomorrow. Hopefully this is it so he can feel better soon :) And the coping makes sense, too. He's a combo of spirited & textbook baby. He used to be very vocal, jabbing non-stop while awake, now it's more limited. I thought that was just him changing as he was growing. Up until a month ago he was sleeping in a bassinet that has an incline (fisher price rock and play sleeper), so I went and put him back into that. Maybe that will help. He's been asleep 1 hour 15 minutes already!! That is exciting for me!! :) Poor kid. I'll make note about his behavior, too, and be sure to tell the doc this stuff: the smell, the consistancy, hoe sleep changed once we moved him to a flat crib mattress and the timing of the spit-up after feeding. I'm going to try and sleep a bit while he's still sleeping. Hopefully it takes :) thanks for your help! I'll let you know what the doc says and how it goes tonight
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My spirited gets more and more 'happy' when he's OT. No-one ever believes that he's OT as he just seems so happy - vocal, chatting, huge grin, etc.
Hope it goes well with the doc and they listen to your concerns.
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Last night went much better- he slept for about three hours at a time! And so did I! I feel like a new woman with that much sleep :) I put him in the sleeper with the incline around midnight ,and when he woke at 3:30 I let him fall asleep on my shoulder, just cuddled with him. When I laid him down he stirred for a moment then settled right away. He still jerked around trying to get him to sleep but if i just held him tight, then shushed and lightly patted after the jerkings, he calmed down a lot quicker than he has the other nights this week with just shushing and patting while laying down.
The doc is out of the office until tomorrow, but I had them schedule me in for first thing tomorrow morning. Today I'll try to make sure he gets some good 2 hour naps and stays inclined, and see if that helps. Thank you everyone! I am so grateful! Much love and blessings to all of you! I'll keep you posted :)
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So glad you had a better night. Those longer stretches of sleep is a good start to getting over any ot'ness. But sometimes it takes awhile before they are well rested and sleep better... fingers crossed for a helpful visit to the doc
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Great progress, I feel the incline helped us a lot to. z would fall asleep on my shoulder too after his night feed then I would put him into the cot. :-*