BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Khalam's Mama on March 21, 2012, 20:45:29 pm
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B is 11mo today and he has never sttn and is still waking at least 4x per night.
I have had a number of posts since he was little to try to work this out with no real change.
I figure there must be a reason but I have no idea what it is so am hoping someone might spot something/suggest something else.
He is BF and we started solids around 6mo but he still isn't that interested and is eating far less than DS1 at this age.
He can go to sleep independently for naps and BT and has always been able to since a tiny baby.
He had reflux but we are now off meds. A recent xray showed the reflux had resolved. We are on a milk and soy free diet and symptom free with this.
He is still in our room because I do not want to move him in with DS1 who has the other BR when he is waking so much. I have tried staying on the sofa when DH is working to see if we are disturbing him but he still wakes the same.
He self weaned the dummy at about 3mo.
This is our routine.
E 6.30 BF
E 7.30-8 breakfast
A 3.75hrs
S 10.15-11.45 (1.5hrs)
A 11.45
E 12-12.30 Lunch
E 2pm BF
A 3hrs 15 total
S 3pm-3.45/4pm (45-60min)
A 4pm
E 4.30 Dinner
A 3-3.5hrs total
E 6.30 BTBF
S 7 (or 7.30 depending on length/wu of last nap)
Usually then wakes 3-5x in the night. Sometimes I can soothe him back to sleep with one of his blankie/shush/pat/pupd in a few mins and other times he will cry for 1-2hrs (sometimes even after I feed him so I don't think hunger is the cause). Sometimes it is every hr and sometimes it is every 3-4hrs.
Any less DTS (either 1 nap or only 30min 2nd nap) and he is very grumpy for his A time but NW are unaffected. Any more DTS (either 2hr am sleep or 1.5hr pm nap) and he will fight BT but the NW are no better or worse.
Last night he woke at 11.20, 1.50-2.50, 4 and 5.30. I fed him at 4am in case he was hungry after the long NW at 1.50 but otherwise he settled in 5mins or less without a feed. Most of the time he goes until 5 or 6am without a feed though.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated. TIA. :-*
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Your wee one sounds SO much like mine. Its so frustrating isnt it! Especially when you feel like you have been investigating forever and covered all your basics.
According to a highly qualified friend of mine this kind of pattern is really common with spirited temperament babies who are highly intelligent, highly inquisitive and who seem to be constantly going through a "developmental" shift instead of once every few weeks.
I am finding that some of our night wakes are habitual - I have used Wake to Sleep successfully (some nights it works some nights it doesnt, but I think over time and in general it has improved things). I jiggle him until hes breathing changes 15mins before he wakes usually. I had to keep a log for a couple of days to check when he woke (it wasnt the exact same time but more or less about the same each night)
I have kept the white noise up and found a lower rumblier one which is better for older, more highly tuned in babies
We also use natural melatonin (tart cherry) at night
I think with babies who are soooo used to waking frequently after such a long time and those who are also really spirited its almost like you have to "practise" sleeping through with them for awhile. I find that when I let my little man sleep in bed with me (even if he feeds more) he actually sleeps better all night and is easier to turn over to face away and put back to sleep after a very short feed. At the moment our sleeping has fallen apart due to learning to walk and teething, however before then through doing this for a week and then putting him back into his own bed and weaning the night feeds cold turkey until 5am at the earliest he had started sleeping through the night (aged 11months) and it took 3 nights. I started feeling more confident letting him cry (unless he sounded really upset) as I feel like looking back a lot of the crying I used to respond to was in fact mantra crying.
Just a few thoughts for you, I know how hard it is....good luck!!!!
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Oh hugs hun, it must be so frustrating and tiring for you. I am stumped too, as your routine and everything looks good. Do you think that discomfort of some sort could be causing the NW? With you saying about being dairy free, do you think there could be other tummy issues going on too? Other allergies maybe? Does B seem in pain when he wakes?
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Thanks for your replies. I have always wondered about discomfort but it is so hard to know.
B is not spirited. Textbook in fact. He is speaking well but not unduly advanced.
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KM - wonder if you've let him try to settle himself? Does he get worked up or is he just waking, making a couple of noises, moving around? Logan wakes a few times in the night but doesn't actually need us to resettle. If he's uncomfortable, he will cry for us and I'll get up and help him - meds, feed, cuddle or whatever is required but usually he will just make a couple of noises and go back to sleep.
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Sometimes he settles alone. I always wait for a full cry.
For example last night he cried a few mins at 9 and 10.40 but both times I did not need to go in. I don't usually even count these as nw. He then woke at 12mo and 4 and 5.15 and all 3x it escalated and he took 10mins to settle. I fed him at 5.15 since his last feed was 6pm which was unusually early for him. He woke 6.10 for the day.
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Fair enough, just wondered what you were counting as NW...
Does he have a lovey? I know Logan rumbles around in his cot til he finds his dummy (usually he just holds it :P ). Takes a while to make that connection with an item though.
I shall have more of a think this afternoon and see if anything pops into my head.
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do you think it could be teeth KM?? How long has it been that the NWings have been like this?
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I'm really watching with interest, this is soo much like y little man and like you I feel like I've covered everything :-(
Have you ever tried keeping a night log to get exact times and see if something habitual might be going on?
His day looks really good! I cant see what you could tweak - although my wee man is on 1 big sleep a day at 11 1/2 months instead of 2 and he couldnt do it any other way - even though his previous routine was age appropriate this way seems to be working better for him (not suggesting you do this - just showing how all babies are so different and it can pay to look at trying something new if what you're doing isnt working, even if on paper it all looks like its ok)
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The nw have never really been better. No different if I Medicate.
He has a blankie he has for all sleeps. Most of the time he is holding it in his hand when he wakes. Often he has brought it to his mouth when he is crying. The 1st thing I do if he is not settling is bring it to his face subtly. Sometimes this will settle him. He actually has 4 in the hope he will always find one. When he goes down he will stop crying if he is the minute I give him a blankie but not in the night.
Posted with you Louise. We are definitely moving to one nap. We have had a few days of one nap. I do log nw but they vary so much I can't make any connection. They are not the same from one night to the next that I can see.
Thanks for your time and ideas.
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Are there any other signs of tummy issues hun? Funny poo or anything? Does DS suffer with wind at all. Up until well over a year old C used to wake with awful wind pains. We only found out that was what it was when I picked her up one night and she did the biggest trump and then instantly fell asleep without another peep!!
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He does sometimes toot when he is crying and I am never sure if it is why he is crying or just that he is wiggling so much. It certainly isn't every night though. The funny poops were the symtom that led us to start cutting dairy and soy but that had settled down since we did. I did eat something at the weekend I think as he had a few days of runny poop but the nw have been this bad forever. I have wondered if we should cut more from our diet but the NW are really the only symtom now so not sure where to start really.
What did you do for the wind?
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We just had to ride it out hun, as we never found out what was causing it. Things just got better as she matured. DD has silent reflux thought (medicated still, no wean success yet) but I always thought that had something to do with it really. We never had any issues with poop or any other symptoms, just NW and the wind. One way we could tell it was wind was that her tummy was hard and if we gently pressed it she would clearly be in pain then. Pushing her knees up to her chest when she was on her back usually used to get it out and then she would be OK.
SO many hugs hun, it is no fun I know. :-*
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It not related to when there's a storm/change in atmosphere is it? Logan wakes just before it starts to rain with the heightened humidity and somehow picks up on lightning before it even happens (all wound up and screaming til it hits then he almost sighs with relief... Don't know what the weather's like there or whether your house is open enough to notice what its like outside.
Amount of light in his room - too dark and can't see it for the familiar place it is or can't find his blankie or too light?
Can you tell I'm clutching at straws here? All things that have bothered Logan but no idea if they apply to B.
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Thanks Bex. I am considering cutting some more things to see if it helps. I will try some winding and see how it helps. Interestingly he tends to be worse if I feed at night for the wakings. Not sure if it is discomfort or more he comes to rely on it.
He has put himself to sleep on his tummy for the 1st time ever tonight so we will see if that helps or not. TBH I am a bit nervous about him tummy sleeping even though he is old enough now but I am secretly hoping it will help him. I am clutching at straws aren't I? LOL
Posted with you Becj. Funny I said the clutching at straws bit too before I saw you had posted. We haven't had any storms or bad weather here (iminient hose pipe ban actually) and he is the same every night despite the weather but good thought.
The room is dark but I did try to use the mobile a few times which has a light but it made him cry harder. I could lose the blackout blind so it is less pitch dark but it would be really light by 5am and I think this would wake him even earlier.
He has 4 blankies and pretty much always has one in his hand when he wakes, often in his mouth.
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Ooh reading yours and Bec's posts has just made me think about C and her NW at this age. So around 12 mo we started to use a night light, mainly so C could see to find her dummy. But for whatever reason it really helped her sleep. This from a baby so spirited it had to be pitch black for her to even consider sleep! We still use the night light now but also have blackout blinds up so it doesn't get too light in the morning.
Also when C slept on her tummy, things were always better. I guess it pushed the gas out or something. So fingers crossed that helps. I know what you mean about the tummy sleeping worry, even when C didn't wake I used to be up checking on her! Lol.
Have you tried tummy massage bafore sleep? We used to do this as part of our BT after bath routine and that would sometimes help with getting wind out. Plus I still rub C's back now after her BT milk to make her burp! Way too old for needing that I know but if it helps her I don't care. Hope some of that helps lovely.
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I still rub Bs back after milk just to be sure too. I did try the tummy massage a while back but seem to have forgotten about it lately. It is hard because he is so grumpy by the end of the day he is barely still for his BTBF let alone a massage but will try to use it consistently for a while to see if it helps.
I will turn on the night light on his monitor and see if this helps as it isn't too bright.
He has usually stirred several times by now but not a peep out of him yet (it is 10pm) so maybe he likes his tummy? FX.
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I wonder if he's more gassy when you feed at night and is waking from that? Logan was always gassy at night if I fed him when I was a bit engorged - just a bigger flow of milk had him gulping... would you try lying back a bit if you feed at night?
Hear you on the light thing - we have ended up with a backlit clock radio in our room that lets a tiny bit of light across the hall to his room. Its enough to be able to tell there are white bars on the cot but I can't see where he is in the cot with that amount of light... Any more and he can't get to sleep, and less and he doesn't know where he is.
Are his blankies all the same? Would he be looking for a favourite one that smelt a certain way or had a particular feel?
Maybe the tummy sleeping will help. Hope so!
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Finges Xd for you here, let us know how you go on tonight. If the NF seems to make things worse I would be even more inclined to think tummy issue of some sort though. If anything else does come to mind I will post back, going to sleep on this one!
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Thanks. I should too. Will let you know.
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Wow you have been SO vigilant covering everything!!!
Ok - more straws......
Have you tried melatonin / white noise / keeping him awake longer in the day as I heard it can be general UT that can do this (although Im pretty sure you would have looked at this :) )
It's 6pm here and reading your posts reminds me of the mental battle I'll be going through in about 4 hours time.....is he in pain? is this habitual? Should I go in? SHould I leave him? Is he OT? WHAT THE HELLS GOING ON!!!!!!!! hehe
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Sorry becj I didn't see your reply last night. Generally I don't feed until the 3rd or 4th nw at 5ish now I know it only makes him worse so I can't blame all nw on that.
The blankies are all just plain muslins and he doesn't mind which he gets at bt so I doubt he is looking for one in particular.
He slept 4.5hrs on his tummy and woke at 12mo, 3.50 and 6am last night. No long nw at least.
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Louise I haven't tried melatonin but am hesitant to tbh. I might look into some natural sources 1st.
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Hi hun, well like you say at least the NW were quick and not long! How do you manage to settle him? DO you have to PU or just a hand on him? Did you feed last night at any NW? Does he always tend to wake at 12, is that habitual do you think? Sorry for the 20 questions, just trying to see if we can figure something out for you. :-\
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Ask away any thoughts are appreciated. He often wakes before 12mo but it seems to be getting later. I think dh coming home from work has been waking him then last few nights.
I had to pick him up. He is never happy with a hand.
He came up in a rash tonight and the Dr said it is chicken pox so who knows what we get tonight.
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Oh no hun, poor little B! :( How is he doing? Well no doubt that will really stuff your nights up for a while... the joys of illness hey? Sending get well soon vibes. :-*
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I am about the jinx myself but he only woke 2x last night at 12.50 and 4am then slept until 7am so no worse than normal and infact the best I get from him.
We managed 1 nap today (3hrs 15mins). I didn't deliberately push him but let him sleep as long as he wanted at his nap and then he seemed perfectly fine at BT. He seemed UT at BT tbh but I think maybe it was OT really as I can't believe he was UT after 5hrs A. He kept standing up and crying and getting on all fours in the cot. But maybe just feeling a bit out of sorts. The spots seem slightly better than yesterday so I am hoping we are past the worst of it and he only has a mild case.
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Hi KM! I'm following along to hear any ideas b/c DS is just the same. We've had lots of issues, but there are none left that I know of and he still wakes every 2-3 hours. I can't figure out why...
I'm interested to hear how your night goes after the one long nap... ?
The only thing that I can think of is that maybe you could try to extend your morning atime just a little bit. When DD was going through her 2-1, she suddenly started having lots and lots of NW and it was finally resolved by lengthening out her morning atime. She was always so tired for her first nap and would go right down and sleep a long time, so I never extended it, but when I finally did, her NW stopped. The only difference is that she was pretty good about STTN before that :-\ The other thing is maybe he's actually OT and needs slightly shorter atimes... I say this b/c your 2nd two atimes are shorter than the first and yet you say he's grumpy in the evenings, kwim? So yes, I realize I'm contradicting myself here, but you could try one and if it doesn't work, try the other. I HTH and I hope you figure out what will fix these NW and when you do, let me know what does it so I can get Milo to STTN!!!
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Lol I will let you know if I work it out.
Not 100% sure about times last night as my phone automatically put clock forwrd but not sure when. Anyway he slept from 7.15 bt to 1.40 am, then woke at 4ish and 6.15 and up for the day at 8.15 which is 7.15 to his body. So we did get a long stretch in the early evening.
I will try to stretch the 1st a and do a 12 or 12 15 nap and then bt at 7.30, which will be 6.30 to him and only 11hr day. Assuming he takes a decent nap anyway. I think some of the later wakings were in part due to him itching as I didn't redo the cream o/n. Maybe I should have.
I think part of him being grumpy in the evenings is I often wake him from that 2nd nap.
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We use natural tart cherry melatonin. No word yet on if it's helping though!!!!
Have you tried a safe t sleep for tummy deep pressure?
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He was sleeping on a wedge and had a wrap very similar to that for a while but he is too mobile now. He started pulling up on the bars and taking the whole matress with him so I had to get rid asap.
We have been getting 2 NW for the last few nights. He did 2 naps and 2nd was really late today so am imagining a bad night.
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Last night was the same.
Tonight he has screamed for 40min already. I feel like he is bwproof. Nothing I do makes any difference. Not shushes, pat, pu, more sleep less sleep. He just wakes and nothing settles him until he cries himself to sleep. Dh is getting fed up. He wants to just ap all the way because nothing we have done so far has helped. He still wakes as much now as he did as a NB. I used to get annoyed when people said I was lucky K slept well because I had worked hard with him but I have done a million times more with b and he is still an awful sleeper. Anyway I sound like a couch post.
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Oh I SO feel your pain. I swear my wee man is BW proof too. I actualy think they all go through so much (teething, developmental stages, separation phases etc) that the time left over for some babies to get actual long nights just isnt there!
I just read this and it has kind of helped me feel a bit better. I'm not saying I agree with practising all of this stuff or whatever, just that it kind of made me think that I just need to cope and get through this and find better ways of managing as opposed to playing detective all the time. I don't know - I do think some babies are more adaptable than others and I do think that my LO has coped better since he has been on more of a routine, but then he would never have coped with 4 hourly routines when he was under 5 months, while others thrive on them....
Anyway, I thought of you as I read it and thought you'd like a look.....
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detsleepthrough.html
At least, if nothing else, we are breeding highly trusting, secure wee lads haha (for what its worth!!!!).
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oh KM...I feel the same way about M. xx
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Hugs Becky.
Thanks for the link Louise. It makes me feel better for sure. Tbh after all this if B would cosleep I would let him but he has no interest and he has always been this way. He is in our room still.
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Hi KM, do you feel it could be discomfort ie wind or similar? We had nws with Olly until he was 14 months and fully identified the foods that upset him.
Re co-sleeping we started doing ths from about a year on, when necessary, he was too little before that for me to feel safe doing it. Luckily Olly liked cosleeping and it was a comfort to him. I know many kids just want to be on their own!
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I have cut dairy, soy and wheat with no longterm change in NW. he is not a very windy baby at all.
What foods did you find were upsetting O?
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Not 100% on the real culprits but dairy eggs wheat (allergies) and high fructose fruit. It was the fruit actually that stopped the NWs completely. He was windy tho, the NWs were painful trapped wind.
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Hun, I haven't read back on your thread, but I have been thinking about you and B a bit. I really feel for you as Z never consistently STTN from 4-12 months. We would get 1 week bursts, then back to NW ::)
Is he still on probiotics? - these did seem to help us a lot, we started around 11 months.
Do you think that having him in our room could be possibly disturbing him? I find Z is a super light sleeper and if 'woken' rather than stirs on his own, he is awful to get back to sleep. Dark room, not too hot, white noise and crazy consistent routine is what helped us at this age
Can DH settle B? At 13 months we did WI/WO for the first time. It sucked. DH had to do it, and obviously we had to both agree Z wasn't in discomfort. Since then he has actually become a pretty good sleeper. Still NW with teeth, and I do think part of it was that he grew out of the NW and his body just matured. BUT it did happen and he STTN most nights now.
There is hope! as you can see I never thought Z would get there but he did. B will do it....in time. So many hugs :-*
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Thanks Sara. I can't move him in with K when he wakes so much. I have tried sleeping downstairs when dh on late shift but he still wakes in there alone. I think he might wake less alone but we have 2 rooms only.
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Oh hugs lovely! I have been giving this loads of thought too and I know you have tried everything. You know that I agree with the whole pain/discomfort theory. My DD still has nights when she will NW for no apparent reason and it always turns out that the next day she will be teething, have funny poops, etc. So always related to pain/illness/reflux, etc. I feel it has always been this way and like Sara's Z, C didn't STTN consistently until over a year old. That probably doesn't fill you with much hope but just so you know you are not alone and we sympathise. Wish I could work it out for you hunnie. :-*
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Sorry missed the reply before but thanks for the foods. Do fructose fruits pass through bm?
I am only 3w away from 1yo so if he started then I would be happy.
Oh and dh can settle him but it takes about the same time as when I do. He works shifts so either he gets in 2am or he leaves 3am so it is hard to get him doing many nw. He will if he is around. He knows how soul destroying I find the screaming day in and day out so he often takes over when he can.
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Not sure on the fructose but I dont think so, it isn't an allergy or intolerance just the way his gut deals with the sugar tbh.
As with Sara and Bex Olly was over 1 when he started to STTN and so I totally get how sick of the screaming you are. Hugs as you have a toddler too xx
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Great so I don't need to avoid that. Will watch it with him maybe.
Thanks Ladies.
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He knows how soul destroying I find the screaming day in and day out so he often takes over when he can.
So is he unhappy during the day too? What foods do you currently feed him? It could be more than just wheat... Milo can't tolerate any potatoes or grains at all: no rice, no wheat, no oatmeal, nothing. Also no dairy and I don't give him any fruit other than avocado. Actually, we have had him on the intro GAPS diet for about 7 wks, so he gets chicken&vegetable soup for breakfast, lunch, and dinner (we are also still BF) and it has truly made a huge difference in his daytime behavior - mood and interaction, both (he still wakes every 2 hrs at night though :-\) When I *stopped* his probiotics, he got even better, and now when I am completely and totally 100% dairy free, his days are just beautiful. He's young enough to do this intro diet with (I couldn't get away with it with DD)... maybe it's worth looking into for you too?
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He is crying to go down to naps and bt atm. He is often grumpy in the day lately but think partly SA. I don't think he has symptoms sufficient for me to cut such a lot out of his diet. We are not far off 1 nap so maybe that will help. I omitted his probiotics for a week or 2 lately but he is no better no worse.
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Once we moved to 1 solid nap things improved at night a lot for us...hang in there Hun :-*
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Crying for naps and BT is normally a routine tweak for us. NWs were always discomfort. Hate to say it but even with ollys multiple allergies they only showed as NWs and a bit of eczema. Tho as I have said the NWs were followed by big farts as the gas released!
Hang in there chick. I was also thinking this morning that past 1 they become more active and I think it helps with their night sleep.
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Am attempting to tweak routine as we transition to 1 nap. He does it ut and ot though so not sure what to tweak next.
No poop issues for you? NB?
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No poop issues, never had mucous or even bad nappy rash. What is NB?
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Sorry I tried to shorten your name to BB and got autocorrected. Dyac!
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Lol :D
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He just started walking now so maybe that will get him tired enough. I think part of the difficulty settling is developmental because he springs up the second he is down or wakes like a reflex. I am hoping that will settle soon.
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how are things KM?
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I started a new thread to reflect that sleep in general is now rubbish.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=228706.0
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Uggh, sorry...just read and posted xx