BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: nollie on April 17, 2012, 02:26:22 am
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hi,
my second ds is 8 weeks old, BF, his routine is still erratic, .. at the moment i'm not sure whether he has colic or i have fast letdown (he's always end his feed by crying and has a couple of big burp) and he's either have a terrible nw or have his day and night switched.. not sure because i found that it took less time to put him to bed at noon than at night
i better post my EASY, so maybe you can spot something about this situation, here goes:
E: 06.30 - wake up
A: bye bye to DH and DS go to office and school
S: 07.45 ( i still hold and sway him as his cue to sleep, he's a tummy sleeper)
E: 09.30
A: Bath time
S: 10.15
E: 12.30
A: play together with his brother
S: 01.45
E: 03.30
A: Bath time at 04.30
S: 05.00
E: 06.30
A: play together with his brother
E: 08.30 - prepared bedtime routine, changed to jammies (hold and sway) , slept on his tummy, i reckon it's because his gas problem (but again.. not sure) so i let him sleep on me for a while till he's in a deep sleep, put in his crib then after 10 minutes.. another wail, so i hold and sway again.. it went on till his next feed, i wanted this feed to be his first cluster feed --> guess it's not working
E: 10.30 - same thing happened like his 8.30 feed.. but the crying intensified, did sucking motion on his thumbs, or on my clothes.. end up gave him medication for his colic, his eyes wide awake and it took a long time to make him sleep
E: 12.30 - finally i could feed him to sleep, burped and put him in bed, but he's very fidgety and restless. i have to pat and shush every time he fidget or he will be awake..
E: 03.00 am - pat shush or feed to sleep
wake up 05.30 - pat shush or feed to sleep
for my fast letdown, i take off the nipple until my letdown pass.. sometime it helps..
i'm afraid to start sleep training because of this chaos (in case he's colic)
it's really hard to steal time to sleep at noon, because of his big brother... soo i really need my night sleep.. if you can spot something .. please let me know ...
Thank you...
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hi again..
after a couple hours of investigating :) ... i think the problem is simply his day and night time switched...
any suggestion how to fix this ladies?
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Hugs Hun, I'll be back. No experience of day/night switch but I'll certainly ask around for you once I get a chance to properly read your post :-*
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Getting some more eyes on this for you hun, I'm uncertain if it is day night switch or colic/gas wind. My LO was a screamer all day, crash at nightat this young age so I'm not best to give advice ;)
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Hugs!! You seem to have a lovely day time happening there! What a lucky little bundle you have! I don't think the day and night are switched to be honest as his naps aren't too long and the A times are nice and long too. If i was seeing a baby with a confused night and day i'd expect to see a long nap of more like 4-5-6 hours in the day and then up all night.. Your naps are nice but not too long.
In the evening- he seems to be going from 6.30 to at least 8.30 before getting to sleep. This seems like a ling time- is there a reasonfor this? Is it that you can't settle him, or just that that's how it fits with your routine. I would perhaps try to get him down for the night a little earlier- say 7.30 or something. I found my little guy would get tireder as the day went along- and so i was always best having a short A time before bed.
Also- the crying in the evening and the first part of the night could well be that fussy evening period a lot of babies get before 12 weeks- they can be really unsettled and want to feed all the time. There's not MUCH you can do- other than try to keep things calm (hard to do with a DS#1 on the scene!) - you could try carrying him in a carrier so he's close to you...
Also- the night feeds- I'd feed him whenever he wakes as he's waking through the rest of the night at times that are similar to what you'd expect most babies to do... It's going to probably be easier on you than trying to shh-pat...
Other things you can do to make sure it's not a AM/PM switch is to keep those A times nice and long (as you have them- no longer at this point) and make sure he doesn't nap much longer than 3 hours. Also see if you can get plenty of sunshine onto him in the day as this helps his body realise it's the day time...
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Hi! I agree with Katy - your day looks fine (amazingly good actually - I'm a little jealous!) but he's got a long A time before bed. I'd try one of two things:
1. feed when he wakes from his last nap around 6:30, then feed again at 7:15/7:30 depending on how long he takes to feed, nappy change and bed.
2. wake him after 45mins - so at 5:45ish and feed then, do a cluster feed, then change nappy and put him to bed at 6:30/7 depending on how he goes after a catnap.
The NW's look to me like what DS was doing when he had gas and he had it BAD - he'd sleep happily for a bit after a feed then he'd wake screaming and be inconsolable for a while until we could get the gas out. He'd root as if he was hungry but he having more feeds would only make the problem worse.
In reality, the night is not too bad for his age but I think you may benefit from that last nap being cut back to a catnap and getting in a longer night (aiming for a 12hr night and a 12hr day) so if he's up at 6:30, bedtime should be 6:30/7pm.
In terms of the letdown - have you tried lying back a bit to feed? Esp. at night as you will make more milk at night when your body is resting and if you're engorged, bub is likely gulping to cope with the flow and taking in quite a bit of air.
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i know.. right.. i love my daytime.. because it's pretty smooth i thought maybe i switched it..
My LO was a screamer all day, crash at night at this young age so I'm not best to give advice ;)
my first son settled very easily after every night feed..coz in day time he fussed and cried a lot .. soo i'm clueless like you too Sara..
In the evening- he seems to be going from 6.30 to at least 8.30 before getting to sleep. This seems like a ling time- is there a reasonfor this?
i guess i'm still trying to figure out the perfect time to start bedtime.. under the assumption the more tired the baby is the more settled he sleep at night.. which is not true in my case..
The NW's look to me like what DS was doing when he had gas and he had it BAD - he'd sleep happily for a bit after a feed then he'd wake screaming and be inconsolable for a while until we could get the gas out. He'd root as if he was hungry but he having more feeds would only make the problem worse.
what did you do when that happened? once i tried feed to sleep every time DS woke at night and he vomited in the middle of the night .. aarrrggghhh... now after 11 pm DF he woke up to feed every 3 hr, at 2.30 and 5.30.. and every time he'd cried after feed so i had to burp and rock DS to sleep..
thanks ladies i'll try your suggestion.. and i'll let you know the result... finger crossed
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look at his little face!! Sooo sweet!!
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I had to deal with the screaming (he did scream blue murder night and day when gassy) and cycle his legs, burp him, pat him, sing to him - anything to get the gas out, calm him down and get him out of the cycle of eating and getting gassy. I did block feeding to reduce my supply, laid back in a recliner chair to slow the flow a bit (going against gravity instead of with it) whenever I fed. I also expressed in the morning before feeding him - this allowed me to store up a bit of milk and start the day off with lots of hindmilk in him and really helped with the foremilk overload situation. I even expressed and bottlefed EBM for a few days to make sure he was getting a good amount of the fattier bits of milk. Once I found out that the fat is in the latter part of the milk because it adheres to the milk ducts and requires more effort to get out, I would do a little bit of massage of the breast to get the fats to let go more easily and that helped too.
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His, have you also tried grpe water or infacol for the wind/gas? X
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:) thanks katy..
about meds for gas.. i gave him piptal .. not sure if we use the same name for the meds.. but it's for colic baby.. i'll ask my pead tomorrow.. :)
yesterday routine was a mess.. i have a couple of question tho.. please take a look at my EASY:
E: 07.30
S: 09.00 (i try to make the sleep and wake up time both one and a half hour)
E: 10.30
S: 12.30
E: 02.00 (i woke him to feed but he fell asleep again after feed for another half an hour)
S: 03.30 (he slept very restless, and everytime i put him to bed, he'd wake up.. so since grandma, hubby, and auntie all here he slept on our tummy)
E: 05.15 ( i woke him up again to feed, but he's getting cranky)
S: 06.00 (sleep on us again)
S: 07.00 (woke up and cried inconsolable
E: 08.00 (change to jammies and feed to sleep)
E: 11.00 (woke up and Feed to sleep)
E: 01.30 (woke up and Feed and wake up till ..
S: 03.30
S: 04.00 (woke up, feed, burp and rock to sleep)
S: 05.00 (woke up, burp and rock to sleep)
E: 06.00 (woke up, feed, burp and rock to sleep)
E: 08.30 (woke up, feed and sleep)
so my question is:
is it because i tried to stick to 1.5 hr sleep, and maybe he's too OT, he won't settle at night?
I even expressed and bottlefed EBM for a few days to make sure he was getting a good amount of the fattier bits of milk. Once I found out that the fat is in the latter part of the milk because it adheres to the milk ducts and requires more effort to get out, I would do a little bit of massage of the breast to get the fats to let go more easily and that helped too.
so basically you express the fore milk so the baby can get the hind milk faster. is it because the fore milk cause gassiness in baby more than hind milk? (am i saying it right.. fore milk as the first part of the milk and hind milk as the fat one?)
thank uu..
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At 8 weeks, you only really just follow the order EAS and wake LO if they're still sleeping for more than 2-2.5hr during the day so they can sort out the difference between day and night. 1.5hr A time is probably too much at this age - it would be more typical to be at 1.5hr by 12-13weeks moving towards 2hr around 4 months, so you could be right on the overtiredness front.
so basically you express the fore milk so the baby can get the hind milk faster. is it because the fore milk cause gassiness in baby more than hind milk? (am i saying it right.. fore milk as the first part of the milk and hind milk as the fat one?)
Yes, the milk is all the same when its produced, but if you express and see the milk after it's settled, you'll see there's a layer of creamier milk on top - that's the fatty stuff LO needs to gain weight and it digests slower than the watery stuff below. Not to say the watery stuff is useless - it hydrates LO and has lots of goodies that LO needs. LO needs a BALANCE of these. When there is an oversupply, LO can often get lots of foremilk which comes out first and is mostly the watery milk and a little bit of fat. As the feed goes on, the milk that's coming out becomes creamier. If LO gets too much foremilk over a period of time, the speed at which the foremilk flows through the gut can damage the gut - green poos and gassy screaming baby result. So foremilk is not bad but too much can be :)
Those frequent wakings at night seem to me like discomfort - probably gas or maybe reflux.
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Hi ladies.. yesterday went soo much better.. no long tantrums in the evening.. only a little bit of crying
i tried the 2 hr sleep time and catnap that you all suggested to me.. so basically started at 4 pm:
E: 4 pm
S: 5 pm - 6.30 pm
E: 7 pm
played in his cribs with brother and hubby till 07.30,
changed to jammies at 07.30 (he started crying already.. guess i missed his window)
then rocked to sleep till 08.00, but when i tried to put him to bed he started crying again..
tried to "feed to sleep" him.. not working, still cried and it went on till 10.30 pm
and finally he settled to sleep at 11.30...
then the usual 3 hr feed.. 2pm and 5 am..
all the fuzziness in the evening happend because i missed his bedtime, right?
the nighttime feed went pretty smooth, i massaged and expressed my milk before fed him.. even tho i still have to burp and rock him to sleep.. but at least we did it with less tears..
**happy jig** :) :) :) still not smooth enough but WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT :):) can't do it without all your suggestions :D
thank u
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Yeah, I think you did miss his window there.
I do wonder if partly he's a bit overstimulated having play time with his brother and father just before bed too. I know playtime in the morning isn't ideal but maybe he needs some special daddy time in the morning when he's just got up and you can work on keeping him pretty chilled out in the last A time of the day. Maybe daddy does his bath/jammies routine so he's getting daddy time but then says good night to everyone and has a feed with you, relaxes a bit and then goes to bed?
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at seems that LO really had a hard time settle down for bedtime..
please take a look for another missed window, and please bear with me.. i'm going to do a lot of experimenting with this..
the day EASY is 3 hr cycle, he wake up at 9am with 1 hr wake up and another 2hr sleep. start from 3.30 pm then..
E: 3.30
S: 4.30
E: 6.30 (activity: play in cribs, massage and singing)
7.15 (bedtime routine: change to jammies, rocked to sleep, rooting and squirmed a lot, maybe he tried to find a good position?, didn't work tho and at the end cried)
E: 8.30 (cluster feed 1, cried at the end of feed, try to burp him, but no gas out.. so i guess he just tired)
E: 9.30 (try to "Feed to sleep", didn't work)
S: 10.30 --> daddy put him to sleep, i gave up.. and finally he slept
wake up to feed 01.30am and 4 am and 7 am and since he didn't sleep well enough i let him sleep until 10am..
question is:
He woke him up at 9 am so he should start his night sleep at 9 pm right? but i wanted to set his wake up time at 7am so i started his bedtime routine at 7 ..
should i do this gradually, like 1hour shift rather than go straight to 7?
is this what makes him so cranky at his bedtime? but if i start his bedtime early, he should have 1 more cycle of EAS to begin with .. why he's so hard to settle down? ??? :-\ :'(,
even if it's only two hours of crying, it felt like a very long time of rocking, swaying, cooing and trying to make myself be patient .. it frustrated me soo bad.. i felt i'm being mean to my LO and neglected his brother.. :'(
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If he can only do 1hr A time before needing a sleep, he should only be doing 1hr or maybe a bit more (10 mins more at most) before bed, so I'd have fed him at 6:30, done the BT routine, etc. ready for him to be asleep at 7:30, so starting shush/pat in his crib at 7:25 or so. Does that make sense?
I think at this age, you can probably just jump to 7pm being bedtime (eliminate one EAS cycle or cut the nap short to get an extra feed in), but that doesn't mean start BT routine then, it means aim to have him asleep then.
Is he swaddled?
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yes he's swaddled, without both arms.. i just got to get both hands free because he's a tummy sleeper ...
i tried your suggestion today..
E: 4 pm
S: 5 - 6.30
E: 6.45
changed to jammies at 7 and started BT and rocked to sleep at 7.25 .. at 7.30 he's asleep and at 8.15 pm he woke up.. then all hell broke loose... :-X
i reckoned it's 45 mins jolt... and since i'm not there to soothe him back to sleep... he's fully awake and hard to put back to sleep till 10 pm... (daddy did the finishing touch .. again...guess he got better temper to settle LO to sleep)
i might as well let him cry for 1 to 2 hours until he feel exhausted enough to sleep.. i'm being mean... :-[ just need to vent a bit..
i just wish he'll outgrown it..
it's common at this age rite? at 12 week he should be practicing enough to settle better at night?
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DH had the touch when DS was that age too. He'd be wriggling and carrying on whenever I held him and he'd relax and fall asleep within seconds of being in DH's arms - I think it was the calmness. LO can feel the frustration and while its really hard to let go of the frustration, it made an enormous difference when I relaxed...
Have you tried hold through the jolts? Or just going in at 40min and patting through the next 10mins or so to help him get through the 45min mark? As he gets towards 3 months sleep starts to become more cyclical, so day naps may shorten as he has to learn to get through the sleep cycles during the day but night sleep cycles start to move towards being more adult-like, every 2-3hr.
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yes i agree.. being calm makes a HUGE difference.. last night he fell asleep with no crying .. :) :) :)
still a lot of rocking and swaying tho.. i didn't count the hour, just looked closely at his cue, here goes:
7 - start BT
7-8 sleep (with lots of jolts, rooting, waking up and rock, sway)
8-8.30 wake up (talking singing together and read a book in dim light)
8.30 - EAT
8.45 - 10.30 (sway and rock, lots of jolts, rooting, waking up and sleep again until he's in a deep sleep then ..
10.30 put to bed (on his tummy) --> pat until he finally settled
11.00 - deep sleep
12.00 - E, rock to sleep
02.30 - E, rock to sleep
06.00 - E
there's time after his BT that he fully awoke and wanted to talk.. (how to eliminate this?)
and about that lots of jolts.. any idea to minimize that .. or he'll outgrown it?
i didn't know his exact bedtime so i just waited on him and pat him everytime he stirred
This past 2 days i let him sleep till 9am in the morning to payback the loss night time sleep due to the crying, if i want to make his night sleep from 7.30 pm to 7.30 am, should i start by wake him up 7.30 in the morning, or gradually wake him up half hour earlier, than his usual wake up time?
and i'm a bit confuse with this:
As he gets towards 3 months sleep starts to become more cyclical, so day naps may shorten as he has to learn to get through the sleep cycles during the day but night sleep cycles start to move towards being more adult-like, every 2-3hr.
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This past 2 days i let him sleep till 9am in the morning to payback the loss night time sleep due to the crying, if i want to make his night sleep from 7.30 pm to 7.30 am, should i start by wake him up 7.30 in the morning, or gradually wake him up half hour earlier, than his usual wake up time?
Yes, the only way to get him to want to go to bed at 7:30pm is for him to be up for the day at 7:30am. I would just do this suddenly at this age.
there's time after his BT that he fully awoke and wanted to talk.. (how to eliminate this?)
This seemed to be mainly before 9pm, so still when 'day' was happening for him as he got up at 9am... Get him up at 7:30 regularly and this should decrease. Also, don't engage him when he wants to talk after bedtime. After he is put to bed, its only feed, change nappy if necessary and back to bed. No talking, no reading, no engaging. Singing only if it is your version of shush/pat.
and about that lots of jolts.. any idea to minimize that .. or he'll outgrown it?
This he will outgrow. It just takes time.
and i'm a bit confuse with this:
Quote from: becj86 on April 24, 2012, 09:40:05 PM
As he gets towards 3 months sleep starts to become more cyclical, so day naps may shorten as he has to learn to get through the sleep cycles during the day but night sleep cycles start to move towards being more adult-like, every 2-3hr.
Sorry! I didn't meant to confuse you. Just saying that around 3-4months of age, babies sleep gets more of a cycle to it - light and deep sleep and they have to learn how to get through the light sleep rather than waking up...
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hi.. I’d been experimenting this past 2 days.. Wake up & BT at 7. BT still a struggle for me but luckily DH always come to the rescue :).. i'm thinking that my own method of rocking and swaying is no longer effective, whilst DH's still ok.. and i can't depend on DH since he usually arrives home at 9pm ..
Usually it takes 2 hours for LO to sleep.. with a couple of extreme crying episode in the middle of BT routine : sleep, jolt, sucking everything reachable, settle down, sleep, jolt and so on… till DH home.
i'm almost at my wits end.. so i'm thinking to introduce paci for BT only... to avoid bloody murder cry at night… i didn't give paci and bottle to my first LO .. so with DS1 going well enough it’s quite a decision to make. Do you have any experience on that because I don’t want it to become his props…
Sorry! I didn't meant to confuse you. Just saying that around 3-4months of age, babies sleep gets more of a cycle to it - light and deep sleep and they have to learn how to get through the light sleep rather than waking up...
HA.. it's going to be another battle then.. :) :) .. the sleep training should start, rite?
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I did give DS a dummy (when he was 3 days old and the lactation consultant suggested it :o :o ) and it became a comfort item at 5 months when he could replug himself. It was never really an issue for us, as we only gave it to him when he was crying - not just whenever he spat it out and he never woke very frequently for it. It can become a prop however careful you are and if you're not prepared to get up in the night to replug, I wouldn't suggest starting with a dummy as you are signing up for some time of replugging and/or weaning down the track. Maybe you could introduce a lovey instead?
HA.. it's going to be another battle then.. .. the sleep training should start, rite?
Yes, but gently does it - shush/pat is best at this age and honestly, I drove myself mad trying to get DS to sleep in his cot during the day, then I let him sleep on me til he was 3.5months old and I decided we'd tackle it one weekend. By the end of the weekend, he slept a good 1.5hr nap in his cot consistently through the day. I do think there's something to be said for keeping LO well rested and getting onto a good routine before doing sleep training :)
I'm wondering if you should start BT routine a bit earlier for him. I'm reading that you're aiming for him to be asleep by 7 but he's still awake and screaming at 9 when your DH gets home?
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I was thinking the same as bec with regards to BT routine starting earlier, maye try 30 mins to start with?
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yes i moved his BT routine (jammies) half n hour earlier last night (he hates changing clothes) and he fell asleep at 7.30.. then half hour later he cried again and it's escalade till 11, when he finally fell asleep.. i noticed this past 3 days his tantrum always start around 8 and ended either 9 or 11 pm.. me n DH started to think that it's colic.. so at the end we gave him his med.. but then he still got 1 hour episode before he finally settled..
its happen again this morning at 10.. he cried hysterically then suddenly stopped after we gave him his meds (not sure he stopped because the shock of getting the meds or because the meds is working)
i reckon he cried this afternoon because he's cranky of not getting enough sleep at night (i read somewhere that OT can be a reason for colic episode in a baby) so my question is.. shoud i continue waking him up at 7 am?
and for catnap at the evening.. lets say i BF him at 4 and put him back to sleep at 5, when should i wake him up from his catnap? and when should i put him to sleep for night sleep? should i feed him again before bed?
thank u soo much
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That is progress ;) I would try even earlier for BT then. If you CN at 5-5.30 I would try to have him in bed by 6.30, so wake, Btroutine and feed then into bed. what do you think bec?
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Yeah, I'd go with no more than an hour from wakeup to back asleep after the catnap if you can manage it - that waking frequently after bedtime is probably related to overtiredness/discomfort or both. Keep waking him at 7am - it will take a little while to switch his body clock around and you may benefit from taking him out in the sunshine in the morning to help him make the day/night association better.
Also, to help with the gas, etc. you can bicycle his legs, push them up to his belly and do tummy massages - light moon-shaped left to right strokes (hip, up to ribs, back down to other hip) and light strokes down his belly (chest to hips) will help move it all through. If you do this when he wakes - just before a feed, the painful bit of actually passing it is done while he's feeding and it seems not to hurt as much (or at least LO's don't notice it as much :P ).
And yes, I'd feed and burp well before bed :)
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Hi bec, sara.. 2 nights in a row, we did the BT with no crying and no meds.. yeey!!.. :) :) :)
still rocking, swaying, bouncing and fuzzing until 9 pm.. (I just can’t make him fully settled until then) but at least no crying …
Only last night when he had his extra excitement at daytime .. he cried again (until 9pm)..
so I guess it will always be hit or miss everytime.. but at least I know what to expect…
Still dreading BT.. at 3 months his rhythm will change again, rite? .. so I just wait till then … Not giving up.. but it’s just easier to deal with colic if we accept the inevitable :)
thank u so much for all the helpful tips and attention.. it helps that there are people who cares and know that we’re not alone in this kind of problem.. :)
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Great progress, he is still so little and learning how to sleep - TBH Z never slept independently till 4 months and he was fine...esp when they are not 100% sleep training becomes a losing battle really.
HUGS :-*