BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Tecike on April 19, 2012, 07:58:38 am
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HI all !
Here I am again... DS2 is 9 mo and we've been having NW issues for a several months now. I had a thread going about it and since then things are slightly better - meaning he doesn't wake every hour, *only* every 2-2.5. We made progress in resettling, so I'm not picking him up every time. So NWs are now like this: for the first time he wakes 45 min-1 hr after BT, then between 12-1am (where he gets a NF), then between 2.30-3.30, 5-6 (where I feed him again in hopes of getting some more sleep, but nowadays he's up for the day that early! :o ). Now this is a good night, sometimes he has periods when he wouldn't resettle, so I have to shush him like every 15 mins. He's probably teething (has no teeth yet, but two are bulging for 2 wks now) but even if I give him meds, it doesn't change NWs. So my question is - can these NWs be habitual if they don't occur at the same time? It seems to me that he still can't transition past a few sleep cycles - like he sleeps 2-3 cycles and then wakes up and can't transition by himself. If this is so, how can I teach him to do it????
As for EW - after DST he had 2 wks when he woke at normal times (6.30-7), but for a few days now he started waking between 5.30-6...and wouldn't go back to sleep even if I AP him! I'm working on darkening the room more, but I'm afraid it won't help... :P
He takes 2 naps (am-45min-1 hr, pm- 1-1.5 hr), but on one EW day he had a short am nap, a 1.5 hr pm nap that ended at 1pm and he took a CN! This of course threw the BT too late, but again he woke early the next day! So, if darkening doesn't help, how can I make him sleep just a half an hour more in the morning?
And the third thing - can OT cause all these sleeping problems? He doesn't seem tired at all, he's a happy little chap all day long, but all the NWs indicate OT...and I wonder how could I make him catch up on sleep? He needs long A times 3-4 hr and I don't know where to fit in more sleep...especially if he won't take any! :-\
Any insight is welcome! TIA
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What time does he go down for the night? I'm hearing you on 5:30 being a little bit early for waking up, but he might be getting a decent night in before then. Can you write out his EASY so we can have a look?
Also, are there any environmental things that could be waking him then - noise from animals/neighbours, etc.?
The NW's do seem like discomfort/OT to me from the frequency. How long does he take to resettle? I don't think these are habitual. Does he have any props - dummy? I wonder if he's OT at BT as neither of those naps are likely restorative as they're typically under 1.5hr... we may need to tweak a bit to get a longer nap and a CN in but two 1hr naps is sometimes just what a baby needs at this stage, so you're the best one to make the call on that - you know him best, after all :)
One other thing and this could be totally off-base: how active is he? DS woke a lot with each new physical milestone and also if he doesn't get enough physical activity during the day, his arms and legs move around while he's sleeping and wake him up (restless legs).
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Well, he's super active - has been crawling for 2 months, pulls to standing for more then a month, wants us to walk him for over 3 weeks, cruises along furniture for over a week now...but he's doing that during almost all his A time, like 95%, so he practices loads, and we've been having NWs for like more than 4 months!!!! I know it still affects his sleep, as he wakes so easily and once awake he pulls to standing within seconds and he won't lie down (even though he can sit down from standing ::)). I'm thinking that I might rush to him sometimes, as he's in our bedroom and I wake up as soon as he does... :P
No environmental things that I know of, except the sunlight in the morning. He does have a dummy, but isn't dependant on it, he can resettle without it. About the time it takes - if I don't go to him as soon as he wakes up, it take ages, as he would first stand for a few minutes, figure that no one is coming, then start moaning for a few mins, then starts crying and then I have to pick him up to calm down...so about 20-30 mins. If I go to him as soon as I hear him stand up, I only have to put him down, or give him a short cuddle (like 5 seconds) and he falls back to sleep.
I'll write the EASY I aim for, and in brackets what I get, 'coz they differ... :-\
WU 6.30-7 ( he's usually up between 5.30-6), BF
E - solids 8.30
A- until 10
S - 10/10.30 ( 8.30 /9 if he wakes early) - 11.30/12.00 (although he does a short nap here most of the times a 45er)
E - BF upon WU, solids 13.30
A - until 15.00
S- 15/15.30 - 16.15 (now this is tricky, if he short napped at say 9 am, he would be down at 12ish for the pm nap, and then probably would need a CN around 16ish, and another scenario is if he does a 1.5 hr nap at 9-10.30, he usually takes a 1.5 hr nap at 14.00-15.30)
E - BF upon WU, dinner 17.30
A- until 19ish( incl. bathtime, and BT)
S- hopefully down by 19.30 the latest (but had nights when he took ages to settle, even until 20.30)
Then he's up as I wrote in my first post....
And he has 2 NFs still (no DF), which I'm reluctant to give up, as a while ago our dr said he might be hungry at night and he always has a full feed. And small but often BFs have helped with his reflux (before you ask, no, I don't think that's the issue now, he doesn't seem to be in pain when he wakes). Just yesterday we've been to a check up and the dr said anemia might cause NWs, but I'm hesitant about this as well, as he has enough food rich in iron... :-\
So I'd vote for OT, and I can't find a way to make him sleep more, even if I AP him... :-\
Hope you have some good ideas! :)
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He sounds like he's quite similar in activity level to my DS. Its great but can be exhausting! Those NW's do seem like OT and I suspect its the OT/UT loop - OT from not getting restorative sleep during the day, UT for the first nap setting up the OT.
I think he needs a longer first A time which may yield a better (and restorative) nap, setting you up for another good long A time and another nap. I'd suggest A time could go up to the 3.5hr mark, especially since he seems to handle 3hr A time after a 45 min nap (am I right?).
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The first A time is the one I've been struggling for a month now - he seemed not to be able to handle a long one after a bad night, he would start yawning after 2 hrs.. :P But then DS1 was sick and home from kindy for 3 weeks and it turned out that if he's home, DS2 gets more stimulation and we could easily move from 2.5 hrs to 3 hrs. So, today I took him out for a walk to get past the 3 hr mark... He was up at 6.30, ended WD at 10 sharp and he was out in minutes. FX that he does a decent nap now!
I thought that even if he had a UT am nap he could catch up if he does a decent pm nap and he shouldn't be OT at the end of the day, shouldn't he? So, should I aim at 3.5 hrs second A time and the same for BT? Before BT he can happily tolerate 4 hrs, but that maybe makes him OT? ???
And what should I do if he refuses to sleep? I mean if I put him down after say 3.5 hrs before BT and he just keeps playing in the cot what is to be done? He did that the other night, I didn't get him up and he played for an hour, so ended up crying from OT after 4.5 hrs A time!!! :o
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Oh, well, didn't work out as I expected...needed resettling at 35 mins. Luckily he went back to sleep after 10 mins... Was he OT from 3.5 hr A time???? Not sure... Hope he does better in the afternoon!
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The short A time first up allows him to compensate for the NW's and the EW's... give him a few days of 3.5hr A time first up, resettle the OT waking if/when they happen and it should come good. At least, that's what's happened in my experience :)
I don't think the A times need to be equal - but keeping that first one a decent length has always been key to sleep not falling apart here. If he's napping past 4pm, I'd cap the nap at 1hr or so - that way he should make it to BT but not have too much of an inclination to party rather than sleep.
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Well, today went well...after the am nap he had 3.15 A time and napped from 2.45pm-4pm (resettled at 3.30pm) and did an almost 4 hr A time, and asleep at 8.05. He did wake at 8.45 as usual, but I hope that if we can keep this routine for a few days, he'll catch up on sleep and finally learn to sleep at night! FX
Thanks Bec!
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Hey Tecike,
Sounds like you've gotten great advice from Bec and had a good day today. Just coming along to help encourage you. (((Hugs)))! :-*
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Fingers crossed for you :)
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Thanks ladies!
Last night was OKish until midnight, but then he woke almost every hour... :( I feel so disheartened right now!
I'm on the verge of just giving up trying and accept the fact that he's not going to sleep well no matter what I do... The past few months I just kept trying and trying and nothing worked. Virtually nothing I know about in theory has worked so far with him... And it seems like my body has gotten used to getting an hr or two of straight sleep, 'coz I function quite normally - I didn't even get upset last night as he woke so often... ::)
I'll keep this routine, as it suits me and him and keep hoping that some day maybe something happens and he clicks to sleeping!
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(((Hugs))), Tecike. It's so hard to get so little sleep and I'm sorry you're feeling disheartened. :( :-* :-*
While I know you're desperate for something to work, I don't think you can base success on any one night. So, I agree, stick with the new routine for awhile; hopefully he'll start stretching out those naps a bit on his own, and then he might start to do a little better at night. The other thing is... he may need to hit something developmentally before he really starts to sleep through. He's such an active little guy, it may be that he just has a hard time turning all the way off. You've also got a few factors working against you in that you're still feeding (and rightly so, I think) in the night and the possible anemia link. Until those are ruled out and you can be a bit tougher in not going to him right away, you might just have to try to get you both as much sleep as possible.
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Well, yesterday he surprised me with a long am nap... I stuck to 3.5 hrs A time after a 6.30 WU, so he was down from 10-11.30 and when I went in to nurse him, he fell back to sleep and woke at 12.30!!! ;D I was beating myself about whether to wake him or not, but then decided to let him sleep as in the afternoon we were going to my sister's and I knw he would have a hard time with napping - and he did fight the nap, so literally crashed in my arms at 16.30, I put him down and he did a 45er, which threw off BT. It was 9 pm when he finally fell asleep after 45 mins of fussing....He was up 4 times at night and up for the day at 6.10... :(
Oh, well it was just one of those days... Today he did regular naps (resettled, but fine in the end) I hope for a regular BT...
You're right Katie, there are so many factors involved, I feel it has to be a developmental thing for him to finally start taking longer stretches. So many times I feel I rush to him too early, but if I leave him and wait for the real cry then we're up half the night and we would never get out of OT... ???
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Fingers crossed for your bedtime, glad you're getting closer with the naps. Hopefully that'll help with nights before something else comes along to mess up his sleep!
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We did regular BT last night, he was down by 8pm, but still woke 45 mins later... Not sure whether this means OT or UT... ??? Then he did a usual night, up 4 times, WU at 6am, when I nursed him and then he went back to sleep till 7.30! Another surprise after all the EWs. He's down for his first nap, had to resettle after 45 mins... I do wonder when he'll learn to do a decent nap without resettling!
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Waking 45min after BT is often OT. Good he did a 11.5hr night albeit with wakings. Hope it means he'll catch up on sleep soon.
Resettling at 45min would indicate UT at the beginning of the nap to me... has he ever napped past 45min without resettling though?
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Well, yes, occasionally he napped 1.5 hrs, but I couldn't see a pattern there - meaning the same A time would either yield a short or a long nap... ???
I don't see how he can be OT at BT...we've been doing the new routine fairly consistently now- 3.5 hrs A time, and he does 1.5 hr naps... What else can cause OT?
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I don't see how he can be OT at BT...we've been doing the new routine fairly consistently now- 3.5 hrs A time, and he does 1.5 hr naps... What else can cause OT?
What does your last A, from end of pm nap to BT, look like? It could be that he can handle the longer As during the day, but actually needs a bit shorter one to bed. Yay for the later wake-ups, that's always a plus!! :)
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The last A time is longer, around 4 hrs. I make sure he's in his cot by 3.5 hrs,but he usually doesn't settle for another half an hour, maybe even more. He keeps standing up in his cot and I keep going in to put him down... I guessed he's UT as he's refusing to lie down, but can it also be OS??? How can I guess right?
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It could be OS. When he wakes, is he really wanting to go go go but a lot clumsier than usual? If so, its likely you have some OS issues.
Standing the in cot still happened when DS was spot on sleep time when it was a new thing and when SA was an issue, so it may not be UT.
3 x 3.5 + 2 x 1.5 is a 13.5hr day. This may just be too long for him and he may need a shorter A time at the end of the day. Maybe try having him in the cot by 3hr A for BT... A long restorative night is so important for fixing OT.
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Ah, I always forget to count it up! >:(
The middle A time was never 3.5, mostly it's 3 hrs. But I see he must be OS by the end of the day, 'coz that's exactly what he odes - go go go and bumps into things easily! So, I'll change BT time, and see what happens!
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All good, DS is so sensitive to short nights, so that's usually one of my first thoughts... If nights go below 11hr, he's an OT mess doesn't matter how perfect the day is ::)
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I agree, try the 3 hr A to bed. Claire was so the same, and I'm noticing that Graham will continue to do the pull-up thing when OT/OS as well.
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Well, for 2 days now I've been trying to set a 3 hr A time in the afternoon and I just can't!!! One day we had guests, so I simply couldn't put him down earlier than 7 pm, the other day he was in cot by 3 hrs, but with all the standing up-putting down show he didn't settle for an hour. He broke his own record! :o
Now he's having his pm nap at 2, if he does a 1.5 hr nap, I don't know if I will be able to put him down at 6.30, as Oli will have a playdate over and I'm afraid that'll throw off all my plans again! :P
The night was slightly better, though, I had to resettle at 2 am and at 5.30am, but he had 2 NFs (at 11 pm and 3.30 am). This was the first time in ages that he didn't wake 45 mins after BT! So, that's progress, I guess...
I could use some quick settling vibes, ladies! It's been about a month now that he does his show at every sleep time....quite frustrating... :P
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This was the first time in ages that he didn't wake 45 mins after BT! So, that's progress, I guess...
Yes, definitely progress. FX for tonight! And lots of settling vibes.... if only I knew the answer. :-\ G is *exactly* the same right now. ::)
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Its definitely progress, long may it continue! Quick settling vibes~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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To update:
Our nights are mostly the same...Still wakes up 45 mins-1 hr after BT, and then every 2 hrs or so. Has a NF after midnight (I'm pushing this out to drop it, but he keeps waking every 10-15 mins until he's fed... :-\ ) and between 5-6 am to avoid EW. He doesn't seem OT at any time of the day, though he probably is. He has 2 naps, am around 10.30 for 1.5 hrs, and pm 3ish, max 1 hr. Trying a shorter A time ends up in crib parties until he reaches 4 hr A time and then goes to sleep within minutes. So nights are from 7.30 pm-6.30 am.
TBH, I started wondering the other day if there are kids who simply can't learn to STTN until a certain age. I know Oli didn't STTN until almost 4 yo, but it was my fault in the beginning - we had loads of props, as I didn't know about BW. Now with Vic I know all in theory, and just nothing seems to work. And I'm afraid I'm missing out on enjoying time with him as I'm constantly worried about naps, NWs, A times and it always feels like I'm doing something wrong.... :'(
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My chn experience this when they have hit their threshold with food intolerances to salicylates, amines and preservatives. What is he like when he wakes? Hyper? Does he have tummy aches? Do you want to give me a basic run down of the kinds of foods he is eating? Is he silent refluxing or refluxing?
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Hi Tecike, ((((hugs)))). I really wish I had something useful to offer. :-\ I think your routine sounds fine, although if he's doing a 13 hr day, do you think he would take the extra 30 min in the afternoon nap? Are you waking him from that one or is he waking at the hour on his own? I know he's had reflux that's not medically treated, and I wonder if that's why he's waking so often and then once you feed him, the pain is soothed a bit, so he goes back to sleep. Do you think he's still bothered by the reflux? Those frequent wakings together (10-15 min apart) seem like discomfort to me. Or hunger, but he's probably a bit old for that. Although, I know he's been ill recently, so it could be hunger. Well, this is really clear, isn't it? ::) :-[
I don't think you're doing anything wrong, hon. He's not the first one who hasn't slept through by now. I think until you're confident in the amount of solids he's eating and maybe onto milk, you can get a bit tougher with the feeds and then hopefully he'll start sleeping longer.
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He wakes himself from the pm nap, sometimes it's even shorter. I know it's a long day, but I really tried to shorten the afternoon and he simply can't go to sleep before 7...he is so wired up during WD and then he's in the crib by 7, but takes him so long to settle. :-\
I'm not sure about his reflux. He seems not to be bothered by it, he doesn't cry in pain. He doesn't spit up at all...is it reflux if it kinda comes up and then he swallows it back? He does that often... ??? He doesn't have tummy aches.
He might be hungry now, as he's in the middle of a huge solids refusal, he hardly eats anything. I wasn't worried at first, thinking it's the teeth bothering him, but it's been almost 2 weeks now... So he would eat 5-6 bites only, nothing off the spoon. Of fruit he eats banana and apples, of veggies potatoes, carrots, peas, zucchini, mushrooms- only a few bites at a time. He used to love squash and yogurt, he won't taste either now. He still eats most from bread or toast with butter or cottage cheese and he grew fond of pastry from the bakery. Sometimes I give him chicken or chicken liver with bread. Oh and he has about 5 BFs a day...
When he wakes at night, he is wide awake and stands up immeadiately. If I manage to hear his first fuss, then I can put him down before standing up as his eyes are still closed. When he wakes in the morning or from a nap, he likes to laze around in the crib for about 10 mins, and then he's on the go.
If it's any kind of intolerance, what are the symptoms of it? I don't know anything about intolerances, have to read up if I have time...
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He doesn't spit up at all...is it reflux if it kinda comes up and then he swallows it back? He does that often... ???
I think this is still reflux, hon. I'll see if I can't get some more experienced eyes to come check this out for you. Do you ever frequent the CRC board? You'd surely get some helpful information there. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=13.0
I also think him being off food could mean reflux is bothering him as well. That, or teeth like you mentioned, but that's a long time to be off food if it's teeth. :-\
I know it's a long day, but I really tried to shorten the afternoon and he simply can't go to sleep before 7...he is so wired up during WD and then he's in the crib by 7, but takes him so long to settle. :-\
Do you do bath time as part of your BT routine? This can actually wind up spiriteds more, so you may want to try doing it at a different time of day and see if that helps. Otherwise, really low key activities before WD. Will he sit with you to read books or do you have a carrier you can put him in while you clean up from dinner? I think he's got to be tired enough to go to sleep by 7 if his pm nap is shorter than an hour, but I wouldn't beat yourself up over a 13 hr day if he just won't do shorter. All you can do is try. (((Hugs))) :-* :-*
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Hugs Hun,
I agree with Katie in that's think your LO sounds in discomfort.
If he is teething this will flare the reflux up and most likely cause increased spit ups, swallowing, hiccups and/or acid pain. It will also explain him being off food.
Will your LO drink water? Keeping fluids upwill help keep him hydrated :-*
Your LO isn't on meds right? Is he on anything for the reflux? Probiotics?
I'm not sure if I have missed you mentioning this but does he take a paci?
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Yes, he drinks water and I'm about the start him on probiotics - wouldn't imagine but it's hard to get infant probiorics here, so I have to give him half a dose of adult ones (by drs rec)...
And yes, he takes a paci.
I tried giving him nurofen in case his teeth hurt, and it hasn't made a difference... :-\
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I forgot this earlier...
No, bath time isn't part of BT anymore. We do it about an hour before so that he has time to run about after. I don't have a carrier, but he's too heavy for my to carry anyway. He likes books, but only if he turns the pages. Unfortunately he won't sit still anywhere - he crawls away, pulls to stand or grabs my hands to walk... The only position when he can't get out of is if I pick him up. Even then he arches back or wriggles like hell if he's not ready for WD... ::) What activities can be low key for such an energy bomb???
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One thing that helped us was once BT routine started we moved room, so it was bath. Then into his bedroom for change and getting dressed. Bottle, book and kisses/bed. We dimmed his room lights too so he just has a lamp on. total WD including bath 30 mins. Anything longer and too long KWIM...
I agrees with Katie that he could be OT by BT when we brought ours forward 30 mins we had easier settling etc.
I'm so sorry you can't get meds for him to help. Does wind or gas drops help? Massage?
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We have a boy of similar energy levels and at that age, books were so exciting it just made BT a disaster, so we did bath, bedroom for getting dressed, BF, cuddles facing away from me & singing, goodnight Daddy, bed.
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Thanks for your WD tips! TBH, he doesn't like long WDs since he was a newborn... :P That's why we do bath earlier, so WD is only change, darkening the room, cuddling while listening/singing songs, bed. And sometimes cuddling means holding him back as he would arch back and wants to get free - but I know he's tired, so I tell him no more play and just don't let go of him. ::) And he has to have a pitch black room , otherwise he'd never settle...
As for routine, summer is coming now and it'll be almost impossible to start the evening before 7. So I decided I'll try to focus on a longer A time in the am and a longer pm nap, so that we still have enough sleep time. And I'm hoping for a later WU in the morning! :)
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Oh, my mushy mummy brain.... ::)
I do tummy massage before bath, but I didn't try gas drops.... Should I?
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And I'm hoping for a later WU in the morning! :)
Along with STTN! ;) Sounds like you've got a good plan, hon. I'm crossing my fingers that it works. :-*
I don't know much about gas drops, but I think anything might be worth a try to see if it helps him.
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Have you got one end of the cot raised on a few books. That can help. If you are hearing him regurgitate and swallow without spewing, that's classic silent reflux. They get a double burn which is far more painful than projectile reflux. Watch your diet too. Spicy, acidic foods and chocolate can worsen the reflux.
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Yes, the cot is raised...
Ooops, I didn't know about chocolate - I've been avoiding spicy and acidic, but not chocolate... I'm a chocolate addict, it's going to be hard, but worth a try!
Routine-wise I managed to set up a 8 pm-7am day, which is great. Nights are not better, but at least days are. And we're still waiting for those first teeth to cut through.... :-\
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I'm a chocolate addict, it's going to be hard, but worth a try!
Anything is worth a try to get more sleep, right? ;)
Glad to hear the days are working out well for you, Tecike. Hopefully, the nights will eventually work themselves out as well. (((Hugs))), hon. :-* :-*