BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: lil_ginge on April 23, 2012, 14:46:04 pm
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Hi peeps.
So - 6 month old DD has had a rough couple of months. She had green poo for 16 days meaning she didn't have any weight gain - then she had a bad cold - then teething.
All of which I was concerned she wasn't getting enough milk. When she woke in pain - she seemed to want feeding. Because she couldn't breath/had stopped gaining weight/seemed uncomfortable while teething so I thought didn't take as much - I gave her milk most times when she was waking in the evening.
This all came a bit after she started EWings...(between 4.30 - 6.30... ) before all this she was sttn from 7pm + DF since 10ish weeks(!)
When the NW's started they were irratic and not every night. I didn't need to feed her every time either - now she wakes (last couple days) between 2-2.30 for a feed. We are guessing it is habitual. Last night DH tried to see if he could comfort her without getting me. (We have a flat with really REALLY poor sound proofing so the lil 1 yr old upstairs and his mum wake when our DD wakes so we had put this off for their sake.)
1 hr 50 mins later - a screaming baby. Calpol didn't help (incase she still feels pain from teething - we can't see any more coming but she is acting like they are! Content during day though...) Water didn't help. Daddy's arms didn't help. P/SShh didn't help.
- I fed her.
I have read that if you're formula feeding there is a gentler way than going 'cold turkey' in which you dilute the feed down every evening till they can't be bothered to wake anymore! I saw somewhere on here - the suggestion for BFing Mum's to do a similar thing with minutes. How do I do it?! Has it worked for anyone?! What if after a few mins on (She is so efficient she only takes 5-7 mins anyway) she then screams for more!?
A sideline to this is the HV. Today she said that - she didn't need that feed (which is what I agree with!). In order to help her to sleep she said up the carbs in her diet so she'll sleep through. She even suggested porridge before bed.
I am just so confused. Fiver posted a link last week about kellymom's article on iron etc - but the link doesn't work when I go to it! (probably my bad!) The BW mentality is "food before one is just for fun" - where is this coming from because my HV's just seem to say how important 3 meals a day are and with the added comment of upping the carbs... I AM CONFUSED AND TIRED AND CLUELESS!
She said after nearly 2 hours of trying last night - DD has cottoned on and knows how to play us on the whole getting a feed thing. She said "You don't need to feed her to comfort her"! - I am sure this is true but after almost 2 hours of trying I wold love to know if there's a better way forward.
Sorry - really sorry to ramble. I would appreciate wisdom on how to help the AP ...
Other notes:
Her A time (which I thought was the issue back when NW, EW started - ) have now got to a great 2.45 - 3 hr depending on day!
She has 4 hrly BFs (but they're stretching with nap, solid, A time) and a DF at 10.30!
Could the DF be disrupting sleep!?
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A couple of thoughts:
If the DF hasn't disrupted her sleep yet, it probably isn't now.
There's a growth spurt around 6 months, have you hit that yet? That might explain some of your issues. 2 nights isn't really enough to be a habit yet, that might be waking out of genuine need. Will she settle right back to sleep after a feed? My dd2 and ds both needed night feeds until close to a year and I found that if they took big full feeds and settled right back to sleep after, then they were only waking up for hunger -- if, after the feed, they still had trouble settling, then I would look for other reasons for waking.
The "upping carbs" thing sounds weird. Honestly, if anything would make her be settled for longer, it would be some good fats, like avocados. However, nutritionally speaking, breast milk has more fat and calories ounce for ounce than any food you'd feed her anyway.
If you feel that it truly is a habitual waking, there are some good tips here on how to address it:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=213387.0
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Hi, how long is it now that you have been feeding at night? There is a growth spurt at 6 months and it could well be that.
Your HV is pushing for 3 meals and more carbs at 6 months?? Milk is a nutrionally complete meal and has more calories than the small amounts of food she would be ingesting at 6 months.
The iron thing is that babies natural stores deplete around 6 months - as I understood it that is why it is recommneded that meats can be introduced around that age.
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Hi Erin
Well she had an absolutely MASSIVE growth spurt at 4 months so for some reason I didn't think we would hit a 6 monther hard. When she is on the breast during the day - she is more interested in other things so isn't on for long at all. Usually, when she's on a GS - she comes off and frantically comes back for more - or arches back at me to say "NOooooooo don't take me offffff yettttt!?!?!?" Lately, she will sit herself up and play with the sofa throw rather than come back for more! She's very stressy atm about getting it at 4 hours but when she is on it's like "O not a big deal after all!"
Hmm. Yes, I am confused about if it actually is a habitual waking. I suppose because she WAS sleeping through the night for such a long time very happily. (MONTHS!) Then the last month and a half has seen many NW's for different reasons so when they started to be less "all over the place" and more consistent I was concerned. They used to hit the 4 am mark too...
Will she settle right back to sleep after a feed?
Well, yes - almost always! But she has always taken a full feed whenever. Infact - at the beginning she would chunk down extra feeds when I was feeding on demand and misreading coliccy cries for hunger then projectile it all up. Also, when she had the 16 day poo-a-thon that was because she continued to take both breasts after her major GS and was getting too much foremilk. (well - atleast that's what I thought it was because when I went back to one breast it stopped!)
Yea... carbs thing was weird to hear. But then I keep getting so many mixed messages from the HVs!
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Hi, how long is it now that you have been feeding at night? There is a growth spurt at 6 months and it could well be that.
Buntybear - thanks for asking. Well, on and off for the last month and a half due to the different medical things that were happening at the time. It wasn't every night - sometimes she would settle without, but it's become more and more frequent! Infact - sometimes when you work out if she's woken twice it's almost like she's doing a '4 hourly schedule' through the eve too! So, when she had a cold if she woke I fed her extra if she seemed distressed (and was signalling for grub) because I thought "O she prob couldn't breath and take as much in". When she was teething really bad I gave her a NF or three as she seemed to not be taking as much from my left side due to it hurting her...
This is why I am concerned that dodgy patterns have occured. :( I really was worried about AP'ing but it's been one thing after another and with the EWing too... We are so tired after she slept so well before!
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P.S. If they're having a GS - can they take in alot more solids as well?
Just... yesterday she ate loads of rice and pear for brekky one hour after her morning BF - then later that day she had a big roast potato.. a slither of chicken and a carrot baton (which I thought was pretty good going for only having started food for 2 weeks ... she ate this without help!)
Then this morning she downed loads of banana and apple grated and this eve ate her way through most of a one egg + potato omelette. This was 1 1/2 hour after nursing then she had another BF top up after this before bed.
O man. GROWTH SPURT!?!? AGAIN!?!? No WAY!?
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Our 4 month GS lasted till 6 month and beyond! Nightmare! We also had NFs until around 1. Personally I believe it is just someting you have to live with if you choose to BF - not everyone will agree - plus we had food issues and so it was a sacrifice I chose to make.
Anyway, I digress! If she is less interested in the day as she becomes more aware and interested in what is going on around her it could be she is making up calories at night? Maybe someone more expereinced could advise better ;)
Ah - you have just posted about solids - I was going to ask!
That seems like A LOT Of solids for a 6 month old.. Is she just 6 months? When did you wean?
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Sacrifice... exactly! I am trying to work out what is a healthy and right sacrifice while I am bf'ing and what is actually a habit that I have fostered due to AP. Hmmffff.
- Go buntybear - carrying on with the food allergies too. *high five*
Weaned 3 weeks ago... she wasn't taking this much at all till now! A couple of tea spoons (until the teething stopped spoon strike!) Then went more BLW... and because it is BL(!) I thought - that seems alot but SHE is the one picking it up and chomping it down! I don't know what is 'too much' as every baby we are around seems to take such different amounts. My nephew woofted down LOADS of solids and still had huge milk feeds!
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p.s. oops - when i say BLW... We have used a spoon for the breakfasts the last two days but are ever so careful not to give her any unless she is leaning forward with her mouth gaping and her eyes screaming "MORE MUMMY MORRRRRE!" (Therefore, this isn't classicly BLW so I apologize - it's some weird combo)
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I think the increase in solids and milk at night would point towards a growth spurt? My only other thought would be that she filling up too much on the solids and so needing the extra calories at night though BM?
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thanks buntybear.
so a plan of action: do you think i should try w2s to see if it makes any difference? Then tomorrow try going for a 3 and a half hour feed time? make sure i definately TU before bed?
would this make sense of if she wakes at 4 or 5 and i feed her that she actually then goes back to sleep better than ew!?
I think i would feel more comfortable if i eliminated hunger as the issue before trying to correct accidental parenting. Just have the guilt thing, "The longer i bfax at night the longer i an affirming a prop!"
Thanks so much mods for your help again. I know i was only here last week but your support is so appreciated when Dh and i are so confused (and cream crackered!)
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Agree with PPs - there's a GS at 6m and this sounds just like it. Often BF babies will wake for a feed at night up to 1y (and sometimes beyond). With the greatest respect, your HV doesn't live with you or know your baby like you do. It's not up to her/him to say whether another person "needs" a NF (I wouldn't want a HV telling me I wasn't allowed a drink of water in the night if I was thirsty, for instance). It also sounds like (s)he isn't up to date on current guidance regarding BF or weaning.
I'll try reposting the iron info - hopefully it will work this time - http://kellymom.com/nutrition/vitamins/iron/
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thanks fiver - link worked! :) v insightful.
on bf bubbas often needing an extra feed for a yr - did your LOs ever sttn? Autumn did happily from 10 wks - 4/5 months (when some nws started!)
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Also on hv front. No i am not offended ... actually after finding out my sis in law was told absolutely solids first then milk by one hv
- then a friend in the same area was told defo milk first....i have come to realise i need to have more confidence in what I feel dd needs.
Being a FTM I didnt realise how many opinions i would get and i have found it utterly overwhelming. I don't want to fall into a AP cycle but i also want to listen to whats really happening.
Ha ... ! Every Mothers dilemna I am sure!
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Yes indeed, it's a tough one, but what I've done is try to take the advice and then make my decision about which way I'm going to go based on DD/DS.
As for the STTN, yes, my DD STTN for a couple of weeks around 9-10w and then it all went a bit pear shaped when she got the 4m GS/sleep regression.
At 16m, she's getting much better at doing so now and we haven't really done anything much to promote that, just gone with her.
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The increased solids could be a GS most definitely. If she's having trouble getting to 4 hours, 3.5 is a good compromise for now. Try it for a few days and see if you can push her back out to 4 in a few days.
It is SO hard to know what's well and truly "right", with all that is out there and it doesn't help when you've got people misinformed. ::)
We had in and off nfs with ds, though there wasn't a point until recently where I felt that they were truly "gone" (it's been almost 2 months since I dropped them) -- my ds was like your LO too, would never refuse a full feed! We just kept feeding at night until he quit acting so ravenous and wouldn't necessarily settle after a feed at night (so the NWs were due to other things).
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Thanks for your advice ladies...and your kind words.
Tried w2s last night and she woke at 2.45 so she nursed. EW bout 5.30 fed 6am!
Erin - Dd is able to stay up almost 3 hours now so a 3 1/2 hour easy would be difficult for naps. Well... even a 4 has been! Could i feed her when she wakes thena t.u. after solids? :s
The other thing i was thinking was Dh and i are discussing when to start formula. If I introduced a bottle before bed do you think she may be more sustained? (Atm she doesnt even take expressed bottles ..eek) I have so much respect for you guys keeping going with nfs. Its so difficult but if this is not actually a GS after all but the way its going I dont know whether i will physically handle it. I have had a chronic painy fibromyalgiary type thing which has been calmer since wonderful pregnancy hormones sprung. When i am exhausted by broken sleep i feel quite pants.
boo.
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Sometimes with BF babies it's a slightly modified EASY, so could be EAESY for a while (trying not to actually feed to sleep if possible) simply because they're less able to get to the 4h mark, so yes, you could do a top up BF after solids (think of it as a drink!)
Is there a reason you're thinking of starting formula? Sometimes it seems to make a difference with sleep, but other times people find that LO is more disturbed at night because formula is not so easy for LO to digest and can end up giving them wind and so making them sleep less well.
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So what does your EASY look like then? Amanda is right, you often end up with EASAE at this point just to fit in the feeds and keep the appropriate A time.
Regarding the formula, I imagine you'll find if she won't take expressed milk from a bottle, there's a good chance she won't take formula either, but some persistence should get you there. The other tricky thing is that introducing formula adds another variable to the mix, so if she's waking you won't know if it's the same issue or the formula upsetting her tummy. If its just the one nf, is it possible for dh to bring her to you, you can nurse without actually getting up, and then he puts her back to bed? Might help you get some more sleep.
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Well - our EASY the last month has been a bit tricky as we've been trying to push out the A and are working on dropping her CN - to help with the EWs!
Before today a general day has been....
DD wakes anywhere from 5am-6am...
E. 6 am
A. including solids approx 7am..
S. 8.45ish (depending on cues and when she's tired... difficult as she's a quiet morning waker often!) 1 hr 1/2 usually
A.
E. 10.15-10.30 ish
A. including solids about hour after milk feed.
S. 1-1.30ish for an hour (sometimes more)
E. Approx 2.30 ..
A. ....Sometimes I have tried solids in this gap here - but I have also sometimes skipped this slot and gone for dinner with us at CN... we're trying to work out what is best!
S. CN starting Anytime from 4.00 - 5ish (depending when she woke!) usually 30 mins...
A. (dinner ...*see above*
E. 5.30 - 6.30 ish... she usually can't do 4 hours at this point!
Bed - Aim for 7 often goes down 6.45 or earlier if really early wake!
DF - 10.30
NF - Used to be nothing from 9 weeks (after looking in my log today that's when she started to STTN), from 4 months due to nappy rash + teething = every now and then, last 4 or so days - between 2-4am 1 NF and then potentially 1 feed at 5am!
Today looked like above but to see if it was a GS I tried to add a few extra bf's. She had two before her first nap and two in the late afternoon and two before bed!
She seemed to be REALLY fussy on the breast. Pulling away - grunting ... she seems a bit constipated (didn't have a poo for 3 days and had two harder ones today) so I don't know if that's it - or whether the general distraction.. She also seemed really upset when solids ran out (or she ate what we had given her to eat)...!?
In the past with GS's she never woke in the night but ate ate ate away in the day making me really question my supply. She just seems grumpy this time if it is but this evening she was rooting more and obviously - upset for more solids.
Hmmmm... DH and I had a chat and we're going to keep going like this for a few evenings to see if we feel it is a GS. If it is - we'll try ride it out. If it doesn't seem like it we were thinking of gradually reducing the minutes she is on the breast to see if that helps her eat better in the day and to see if she then can leave this one for now.
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Sorry, it's taken me a bit to get back to you
Hmmmm... DH and I had a chat and we're going to keep going like this for a few evenings to see if we feel it is a GS. If it is - we'll try ride it out. If it doesn't seem like it we were thinking of gradually reducing the minutes she is on the breast to see if that helps her eat better in the day and to see if she then can leave this one for now.
This sounds like a good plan. How's it working?
Do you think the solids are adding to the constipation? You might try offering some water with meals, or reevaluate what you're giving her to eat for solids. The CN dropping is a pain, though I was much happier with the routine that all of mine grew into when it was done.
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Hi Erin... well last night she didnt wake for the feed(!!!!) Well she woke a few times made some fussing noises which then completely died down after a few mins and she then slept till about 5am. Dh brought her to b fed and then took her off! Woo!
Not sure if it was because I just upped and upped the bf or wheter no catnap yesterday helped! (early start but she did go to bed at 6pm with cn gone!)
The whole dropping the cn thing is difficult isnt it - with EW even though she can now do 3hr A time she'd be going to bed at 5.30 without!!! Looking forward to how routines take shape from here on out like your LOs! Makes meal times easier :):)
Constipation really much better. Now seeing 2 firm poops a day!
Thanks for advice re. upping feeds and bottle palava! Gonna hold off and see how she goes. Been bf'ing both sides today but then not lots of times so improving. (Just gonna watchout for any foremilk green poops overloads)
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Yay for improvement! I hate routine tweaks, we're slogging through th 2-1 right now and some days I'm sure we'll never see the end of it! (But I know we will and be better off because of it!)
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Ladies, ladies, ladies...
So - I think Autumn maybe teething again. I wonder if this has been the bother! Last night she was up again - this time at 2.45am and when I got her out of the cot to calm her she was eating my chin.
Still difficult to get to the source of the issue. Thought maybe NW/NF's were better with no CN days but yesterday was one of them and it was a 9.00, 10.30 and 2.45 with 5.30 extravaganza.
When she's feeding at the moment she hardly takes any. She seems really hungry then gets on and is on and off and on and off. She has bitten me a few times too. I have tried to just up the feeds again today to see if this helps fill her for tonight but I am still confused as to whether she is just so easily distracted or getting distracted easily because actually - she's just uncomfortable!!! DH noticed she's lil miss red cheek again at times. I've noticed she is doing this weird new thing on one side of her mouth with her fingers and she is doing a strange grunt cough type thing all the time!
Maybe she is waking hungry because either she's not getting enough in the day because it hurts her or is getting so distracted? (PLEASE ADVICE WELCOME!!!!) Or is waking for a feed out of comfort like she did with her last teeth!
Does this sound like teething to anyone? She has been spitting up alot of acidy stuff too... Clear smelly. Summary - seems like she wants to feed all the time but when she does she is very half hearted about it. I know it was only a few weeks ago with the last teeth - similarities and some differences this time.
You know when you're so tired you know you should know what it was like a couple of weeks back but so much has been going through your mind you just go into *HUH?!* mode???? *Puts hand up!*
Anyway - sorry to go on and on AGAIN but a few thoughts or words of advice regarding the popping on and off would be great! (P.S. I am doing two sided feeding again atm as I am feeding so often but she is so on-off-on...)
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P.S. When I say "bites me" - we're talking nipple (thanks to the wonder woman who told me to draw her into my chest when this happens - think this is why I still have a nipple left!) AND my finger!!! When I look away - NIP on my finger ... and those nashers... are sharp!!!
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Definitely sounds like it could be teething. The red cheek is supposed to be a tell-tale sign (although I'm not sure either of mine have ever had it) along with the bobbing and nipping.
Have you tried any teething meds before feeds (bonjela, anbesol liquid, teething granules)?
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Well we used bonjela before when we could see the tooth but i cant see it under the gum yet. I gave her calpol when she was v uncomfortable last time too but tbh it didnt seem to help!
Maybe i shall try nurofen and granules. I take it te granulesre forma between feeds in the day?!
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Mine always had the teething red cheeks too. And my ds definitely is troubled more with them before they actually break through. You might let her chew on a frozen washcloth before nursing -- and give some meds before bed, nurofen works better for tougher pain. The nf could be either comfort or genuine hunger -- is it a full feed or just nursing to get back to sleep?
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Thanks Erin. Well mostly a full feed though DD isla renowned forma taking anything anyone gives hermano! But bearing in mind she's been bobbing on and off all day maybe she was catching up. I just gave her lots extra feeds - 2 every A yeterday and she slept till 5ish this morning...woo!
Do you think this is ok for the moment and will pass after tooth cuts or am i creating a snacker?
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I've no experience of teething granules, but know some have given good reviews.
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It should pass but I'd try to space the feeds out again a touch just in case.
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Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay...
She slept through again till 5am. I tried feeding her like a NF and seeing if she would go down but - 30 mins later she was still singing to the giraffe on the wall so DH went to the rescue.
Yesterday she took good long feeds almost 4 hours apart and she wasn't bobbing AND they were one sided (I was so nervous about double sidedness but I did for a few days to make sure supply was up - I have overactive letdown and did not want to tred the green poo's of doom territory again!!!)
Defo acting like she is teething still - she keeps trying to eat my thumb!
Really appreciate all your help on here ladies. Helped alot these last few weeks.
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Great update! :)
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Ladies - reading up on dropping the df and with the current shindigs do you think dropping the might help!?/be good to work on while things are bit up in he air anyway?
She either wakes early for it or if i don't get in there for exactly 10.30 she is waking up and letting us know...
Now she is a few days from 7 months i wondered if its aactually disrupting her night sleep as she used to be completely out of it!!!
thanks ladies (again) last night was dodgy but i think we r going to have this till some teeth come!
Hope you and your los are well! Autumn is trying to stand and crawl at once. Funniest thing to see her lil ladylike butt in the air!!!!
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p.s. serious apologies for is misspells everywhere. My predictive text on phone has its own thing going on that my thumbs can't reign in!!!
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Might be worth a shot. All that development has got to mess with sleep a bit too
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Ok... any tips on doing this well with bf in your experience? Can't detract a few ounces! Is it best to limit mins on or start to bring df closer and closer to last evening feed!? Ta v muchly!
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I've never done it myself, but seen it suggested that you move it earlier and earlier so it meets up with pre-bed feed.
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Ok thanks - will have a look on the forums for a plan of bringing it forward! Oooooooo i don't wanna get too excited but if its a hit an earlier bed time :O
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Yes, move it forward by about 15 minutes every few days -- there's a sticky about it here:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65750.0
The best part about dropping the df is going to bed earlier. :) Good luck!
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Thank youuuu!
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Can i butt in? We dropped the dream feed about a week after the 6 month growth spurt (it was massive for us ::) ) - we essentially dropped it cold turkey- he woke up one night at DF time and made a little noise... and lazy mummy was already tucked up in bed... so i couldn't be bothered getting up.... he stayed asleep and that was it! He would still at times wake between 4-6am for a feed until around 8-9 months..
Just thought i'd tell you how we did it- I had planned on moving it further forward- but couldn't be bothered in the end!!
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Equally valid, Katy! :D
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ha ha thanks Katy... :D I sooooo wanna just try that but with the last months crazy NW I feel i shouldnt tred the brave-side too speedily!
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Understandable- and it wasn't so much bravery, but laziness at play with me!