BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: anna* on April 24, 2012, 08:28:18 am
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This is the worst age for babies I think. I feel like things SHOULD be getting easier, and sleep SHOULD be getting better - but it's not, and I'm tired, and A times are long, and babies want entertaining, and it all just feels like too much.
So here we are. Audrey is six months old. She has sttn maybe two times. At the moment she is waking usually about 4-6 times during the night. I will feed her two of those times. I don't believe she needs those feeds at all, as she is rarely hungry in the morning, and when she stayed at my mums overnight last weekend she took only 3oz of EBM the whole night. I don't really have any effective way of settling her. I am happy to undertake sleep training although I don't really know what we'd be training 'for' as she goes to sleep independently for naps and at bedtime and I do hear her settle herself at night as well.
pain meds
solids at tea time (doesn't really work she won't let me spoon feed her)
less solids through the day
top up of formula
top up of breast milk
more daytime sleep
less daytime sleep
longer A before bed
shorter A before bed
dropping the dream feed (she would always wake before it anyway)
She has been to the Dr to be checked over incase of any mystery illness i.e. ear infection and has been declare 'the picture of health'
For weeks now she wakes up after bedtime - anything from 1-3hrs after bedtime it's not always the same - and will cry on and off for hours. Then she will have a feed and sometimes the rest of the night is quite peaceful however sometimes she will wake again shortly after a feed and I have no way of settling her.
We weaned the dummy in the hope of breaking this pattern but it hasn't made any difference. I've tried giving the dummy back just because I need some way to make her be quiet so she doesn't wake up Stan (they share a room). But sometimes she won't take it and just goes on crying and/or shouting.
Last night we had our normal early evening - maybe a bit better than usual - and she slept til 12.45 when I fed her and she went back to sleep. She was awake then at 3.45, not crying, just shouting and yelping. I spent half an hour trying to get her to settle down, then, because Stan was tossing and turning and I was afraid he would wake up - I had to feed her even though she clearly was not hungry at about 4.15am. She went back to sleep but was up for the day at 6am.
Her routine is very variable but yesterday was:
6.30am awake
7.30am BF
8am breakfast
9.10am nap 35mins
9.45am awake
10.30am BF
11.30am lunch
12.15pm nap. Slept 40 mins then woke up, 15 mins trying to resettle, slept another 30mins in my arms
1.40pm awake
2.30pm BF
3.15pm catnap 30 mins
3.45pm awake
4.30pm solids
6.25pm BF plus top up of EBM (3oz) which I had in the fridge
6.45pm asleep for the night
Please help.
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Hi Anna,
She's in prime CN-dropping time now, how would she go upping A time to 3hr (gradually rather than jumping up if that's how she rolls), having two solid naps (would she do it?) and an 11-12hr night? I found around this age it wasn't about total day sleep but length of A time, not total A time but length being important to get good naps and good night sleep. That could just be how DS was/is...
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That's what we're trying for - 2 solid naps - but more often than not one of them will be short so we'll be left with either a catnap or a very long A til bedtime
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Ok, so are you putting her down after 2hr30-40min in the morning because she's tired after a bad night? We had to push through and resettle the OT nap for a day or two to get it under control... would that work with her?
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I'd agree about the CN - and it meant a lot of early BTs to give us a max of 3-3hr 15 final A time. Sofia has always been a low A times baby, so CN dropping was difficult as I couldn't stretch her out too much. So we brought in her BT and said that anything after 6pm was acceptable for us as I didn't want to get into the habit of putting her to bed at 5.30pm or something. Some nights it was literally 6.05pm and other nights nearer 6.30pm but we stuck with that until she dropped the CN. Bath time often used to be our saviour, as it would revive her and entertain her enough to just push on to that 6pm goal without getting too OT. That made the day feasible even on 2 rubbish naps, and she seemed to tag on the missed day time sleep onto the night and wake up at an acceptable time.
Also another thing that DH and I always forget in NWs are temperature - we didn't realise quite how chilly Sofia's room got at night and it was enough to niggle her out of sleep on a repetitive basis. Adding a vest under her sleepsuit and sleeping bag helped. Also - if it is teething, we found that Nurofen works a gazzilion times better than Calpol. Calpol just didn't even register with Sofia.
You may well have already ticked these off your list but just thought I'd mention them.
Hugs, and hang in there. xxxx
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She keeps falling asleep on the return leg of the school run :(
Sorry for super short replies, not being rude just on my phone today as DH has laptop!
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Big HUGS Anna, I'm sorry the NW have not gotten better. I don't really have much advice to give you unfortunately, but is there any way Stan could sleep in another room for a little while so that he does not get disturbed? I so understand the pressure of not wanting to wake him up at night, it is an additional stress that you don't need right now. I know when my friend did sleep training for her DD2, her DH and DD1 went to 'camp' in the basement, they made it into a fun adventure. I know there's no real sleep training to do since she falls asleep independently but maybe it would help lower your stress at least.
Might not be helpful but that was the only idea that came to mind so I wanted to share it with you. :-*
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We don't have another room for him to go in and even in our bed he finds it difficult to sleep if he's not in his own bed.
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I agree with becj86 - I would up her A times a little. M was doing 35/40 min naps constantly at that age and i do think she was UT. (in hindsight!!??)
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But even when we do get two good naps, the nights still suck ???
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I don't think it is always the nap length though. A lo can do a good nap but if the A times are not long enough it can still affect the nights....
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Please can you type out routine for me to try tomorrow. I have no idea what her A times should be. Yesteray went
6am A
9.10 S
9.55 A
12.30 S
1 A
1.30 S
3.15 A
7 S
She woke at 9 but let me resettle her. Then at 10.30 then at 1.30. She is not hungry but won't go back to sleep (now 2.15)
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Just reading up now and looking at your routine I also think there could be a bit of UT before AM nap...even though the 35 min naps indicate OT. Z did this for ages and I was so scared to increase his A as he woke cranky, which for me = OT. BUT he needed a longer A to get past that mark. He aws cranky, but not tired enough to sleep longer IYKWIM?
I agree with becj86 - I would up her A times a little. M was doing 35/40 min naps constantly at that age and i do think she was UT. (in hindsight!!??)
I would try this ^^^
But then looking at your day yesterday she did a first A of 3hrs 10 and you got 45 mins and I wouldnt think longer than 3hrs15 would be necersary ??? Maybe go for a solid 3hr first A for a week to get her body used to it.
If she short naps try 2hrs 40 or so. If you can resettle or she naps longer then do another 3hr A or a touch longer.
What do you all think?
And Anna - It looks like she 'can' nap longer (your yesterday PM nap at 1.30) so she WILL get there!
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The trouble is, I've totally lost faith that any of thus is going to improve our nights. I don't HAVE weeks, I am literally falling headlong into depression. I know it's stupid.x no I don't haver friends who can help, no I can't get out and about, no in not expecting miracles.
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I know it's stupid.x
It's not stupid at all Anna! Dh and I always say it's amazing how much a bad nap affects a person's mood and you've been dealing with bad nights for quite a while.....pretty much on your own! That's brutal. So although I'm not sure how to help I wanted to say that in no way are you being stupid, you're just being human.
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It is totally understandable hun. I also don't have friends who can help and getting out and about with 2 (one of whom is going through an aggressive phase) is very hard. You are not alone. And I have struggled with M and her sleep since day 1.
I would give Sara's suggestion a go. I always find it better to follow a plan. If it does not work then we can try something else. Try and stick with it for at least 4-5 days.
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HUGS Anna!
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Thanks ladies. I am so depressed. It is tiredness. A nap or a night's sleep (my mum had her Sat night) helps but only until the next bad night. I think Audrey is getting a bit stressed too because I don't really want to interact with her :`( and 3hrs A time is a long time when we are not enjoying each other's company :(
My mum has taken her away for a bit, I feel guilty because she does too much for us and I know it causes friction with my step dad.
At this point I would be THRILLED to just have 1 or 2 night feeds to deal with. It's the night feeds AND the extra wakenings together that are getting to me. Last night I was up with her from 1.30 til 3, then couldn't get back to sleep myself until nearly 4, then she was up again at 6.
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that is hard :(
I find it better to go out with M when I feel like that. Today I forced myself to go to an under ones group for half an hour. I knew noone but M had fun and I enjoyed her and appreciated the sweet little thing she is....staying in I am bored to tears most days and so is she probably! We have just started tumble tots and that too is fun and helps us get through the EW's and Nwings...
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So today went
7.10am A
10.15am S
11.20am A
2.15pm S 30mins, then 30 mins to resettle, then back to sleep for another hr
4.15pm A (this is too late to wake up really, but she was with my mum who has no concept of looking at a watch or setting an alarm)
So I guess I will make bedtime 7.15pm
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sorry - just seen this. How was bedtime?
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It was fine, thanks, but she always goes down fine it's just question of how long til the wakings start. I was going to put Stan in my bed and I would sleep in his toddler bed, but he insisted on going in his own bed. Really hope tonight isn't like last night, else he'll be awake for hours in the night too. I've just got no way of settling her if she wakes when it's not time for a feed (and I don't even really want to feed her because she won't take any milk at breakfast).
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(((Hugs.))) Take it she's AP proof then (Sofia was too - so I really feel for you.) xxx
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She will go back to sleep if I hold her - but wake up again within a few minutes if I lay her back in her cot. :(
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I've just had another friend suggesting she's really OT and to try some super early bedtimes... ugh it's all so confusing. How do you tell?? Audrey, please tell me what's going on...
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To be honest, your current A times are not all that far off where we are at 10 months but Sofia has always been behind the curve on A times so we're probably not a very good benchmark... I know we would have been OT if Sofia was doing Audrey's day, so we got through the CN drop with super early BTs.
R. x
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Anna, for sure try an EBT, but I really think as hard as it is whatever you try you need to give it a good 4-5 days for A to adjust. Then re-evaluate KWIm?
So many hugs. I, so sorry you are feeling so low. Have you talked to DH and your mum about how your feeling? Xx
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I know.
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Hugs Anna, so sorry that you are going through such a hard time. Wish I could offer some advice but we really just muddle through here! One thing though that I think helps is to have a plan and stick to it for a few days - as Sara has suggested. At least that way you feel you are trying something and have some control of the situation (that's what I find anyway) Hope you are doing ok.
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Last night she slept... Beautifully. The best night since she was born. Probably a fluke and I am still dog tired, but I'm grateful for it.
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hurrah!
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Yay Anna!!!!! :D
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great :)
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Hopefully a corner being turned... Glad you got some sleep. x
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Fantastic! Fingers crossed for a repeat tonight:)
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Glad you had a good night :D fx for tonight x
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Thanks everyone, I have felt much more hopeful today. Last night she went to sleep at just gone 7, woke a couple of times before 10 but settled herself, slept til 3.15am, fed, went back to sleep til 6.30am, then came into bed with me and dozed off again until 7am. Lovely.
I tried to replicate yesterday's naps, today, but of course it didn't work. It went like this:
7am A
10.05am S 45mins
10.50am A she absolutely could not stay awake a minute longer here, she was grizzling and putting her little head on my shoulder trying to sleep bless her, and actually fell asleep in my arms in the time it took me to carry her upstairs
1.25pm S 1hr20mins only, wouldn't resettle
2.45pm A
I couldn't squeeze a catnap in, so bedtime was 6.10pm. She woke up and I had to go in and feed her just now, at 10pm.
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Sounds like progress. :) So pleased you're feeling more positive. Amazing what a half decent bit of sleep can do to our outlook isn't it.
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Well it seems like Wednesday's excellent night was a fluke, I was up with her for 1.5hrs last night. We're on day 3 here and I can't say that things are going terribly well...
Tues
6am-9.20: A
9.20-10.05: S (tried to get her down earlier)
10.05-12.20 A
12.20-12.50: S - then awake for 30 mins while I tried to resettle
1.20-3.20: S
3.20-7.10: A
7.10: S
She woke a couple of times before 10 but I was able to resettle her. Fed at 10. She then woke up at 1.30, wouldn't feed, wouldn't settle, finally let me feed her at 3am, went back to sleep until 4.30, then I brought her in with me and she slept until 7.
Weds
7-10.15: A
10.15-11.20: S
11.20-2.15: A
2.15-2.45: S - then awake for 30 mins while trying to resettle
3.15-4.15: S
4.15-7.05: A
7.05: S
She has a brilliant night. She woke a couple of times before 10 but both times settle herself back to sleep within a couple of minutes without help from me. She slept til 3.15am, then fed and went back to sleep. At 6.30am she woke up and when I brought her in to our bed (expecting to start the day) she fell straight back to sleep until 7.15am.
Thurs
7.15-10.05: A
10.05-10.50: S
10.50-1.25: A
1.25-2.45: S - wouldn't resettle, couldn't fit in a catnap later
2.45-6.10: A
6.10: S
Back to feeding every four hours through the night. Woke at 10pm, then 1.30am, then wouldn't go back to sleep. At 3am I tried feeding her again (which was a fight because she had fed at 1.30) but she went back to sleep afterwards. Slept til 5.30, then I brought her into bed with me and she slept til 6.30.
Today:
6.30-9.30: A
9.30-10.30: S
10.30-1.30: A
1.30-2.15: S - I heard her cry out after 30 mins, then she woke up fully after another 15 mins and wouldn't resettle.
I really struggle to get her to CN so what now? Bed at 5.30pm?
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I guess BT as early as you're happy to go with.
My mental cut off was always 6pm, so in the same situation I would have done a bath at about 5.20/5.30pm then really low key after that, straight into PJs final bottle, into bed at 6pm. But it's a slightly risky strategy as could result in lots of OT wake ups all evening - what's she generally like when OT?
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LOL sadly I have no idea Rachel! Nights are always bad so I have no way of differentiating between OT or UT 'troubles'.
I've put her in her cot on the off-chance she might have a catnap - and to give me a 15 mins break from her - but no she's not going down. Dreading tonight, she's had even less sleep than yesterday.
She's supposed to be an 'angel' baby, why is this so hard??
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She's supposed to be an 'angel' baby, why is this so hard??
Hugs Anna, I ordered one of those too - they were out of stock on June 19th last year apparently... :)
It always amazed me during the CN dropping that Sofia just KNEW I was attempting a CN, but yet could give her a quick wash, final feed and in bed within a further 20-30 mins and she would go to sleep for the night. Maybe that 30mins makes all the difference, maybe it's the BT routine that does it, or maybe she is just bloody-minded and wants to do things HER way... I suspect the latter, much more spirited creeping in to my angel / textbook as the months roll on.
I'm sure your angel is in there somewhere and hopefully will re-emerge soon. In the meantime, I'm keeping everything crossed she settles well for BT and gives you a good stretch of sleep tonight. xxx
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She's supposed to be an 'angel' baby, why is this so hard??
FWIW - M is/was an angel baby and I always used to post this question - you can understand when they are spirited or touchy but not when they are angels.
How are things atm?
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Actually, things have been a bit better at nights. Not amazing, but at least she's not crying for hours in the early evening. I am not thrilled that she is still feeding twice at night and (usually) only going 4hrs between feeds round the clock (?? come ON), especially as that means she's very often not hungry in the morning.
The EASY is messy though and we rarely get long naps. Usually 45 mins or an hour, sometimes an hour and 10 mins. No idea if that means UT or OT - but I'm thinking that 3hrs A isn't right. Though I can't tell if it's too much or too little. It means we often get to like 2pm and have had two naps and then I've no idea how to handle the rest of the day because a catnap is a PITA but it's a long time til bedtime.
Ah there she is now. A 1hr nap after a 3hr A time. Should I post on EASY?
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Anna on those days is there any chance of APOP-ing a CN? In the stroller or car seat?
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I try and have her nap in the buggy while I pick up Stan from nursery but 9/10 she won't. Car seat isn't really an option because it's around the time I need to be preparing dinner and Stan is home. Sometimes she'll go down in her cot for a catnap, but it would just be a whole lot nicer for everyone if she would take at least ONE decent nap in a day.
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(((HUGS))) I so agree on this. Maybe post on the EASY board as you say, it can't hurt :-*
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yes if the nights are better try the EASY board. I have a bad napper so I feel your pain but cannot really advise. When things were very tough around 5 months I set naps with M and it did help but it was not until about 9 months that she started taking one good nap a day...hopefully A will be sooner!