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SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: orit78 on May 17, 2012, 07:55:59 am
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Hi There,
My LO is almost 3.5 months now. We are working hard on his day naps (sometimes we do have successful days!). Since there are also two older sisters around afternoon and evening are more tricky. But - we try to make the evening ceremnoy (BT, feed, story, etc.) so usually he goes to sleep at around 8PM (it takes him a while to settle but I think he's on the right way on that.
I BF him though his weight is quite low (his weight his 4.1 Kg = ~9 Pounds). I give him DF (sometimes my hubby gives him a pumped milk) at about 23:00-23:30. He wakes up at about 3-4AM and I give him his paci. Sometimes it works and I get more than an hour of sleep. I just wonder if that's right.. in the BW book that what she suggests. For how long can you expcet a 3 months baby to sleep at night?
This night he woke at 3:00, 3:30 and on both times I gaave him his paci. THen he woke up at 5:30 and I fed him.
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For how long can you expcet a 3 months baby to sleep at night?
My general rule was always to not feed them at an earlier interval than fed during the day. So, if he's on a 3-3.5 hr routine during the day, then I wouldn't feed closer than that during the night. At 3+ mo, I would say tops for a low weight EBF bub is 4-6 hr.
A couple of things...
The DF you have listed is quite late. It's generally recommended that the DF falls between 10 and 11 pm, with the thinking that after 11 pm it can actually disturb a LOs sleep. So, if possible, see if you can bring that back a bit. Then, you or DH can go to bed a bit earlier as well. :)
Secondly, if you give him the paci and he goes back to sleep, but wakes again within the hour (as he did last night), I'd go ahead and feed him. It's quite common to have the DF plus one or two NFs at this age. I think you're trending toward one, but if his weight is on the lower end, I'd lean toward feeding him.
What does your routine look like during the day? Are you doing any cluster feeding in the evening to 'tank him up'?
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Hey,
Thanks for the reply. I'll try to be more specific:
We have a routine of 3-4 hours of EASY (depends on his S stage) during the day.
For example this is what we had in the last two days:
E - 5:30 AM (still considered as NF)
E - 8:00 AM (that was a very short nursing. I guess that's because he ate at 5:30 a full meal)
A - 8:15-9:30
S - 9:30 - 11:20
E - 11:20 - 11:50
A - 11:50 - 13:25
S - 13:30 - 15:00
E - 15:00 - 15:40
A - 15:40 - 16:45
S - 16:45 - 17:13 (here he woke up. My guess - he suffered from gas, since he woke up a bit crying and I couldn't make him back to sleep. From here things got worse...)
A - 17:20 - 18:00
E - 18:00 - 18:20
A - 18:20 - 19:30
S - 19:30 -
Then I fed him (like a DF) at 20:30 and also tried at 23:30 to give a pumped milk - but he ate only 30ml (1 oz).
He woke at 1:45 and I fed him and also at 5:22 and I fed him. His morning started at 8:00.
E - 8:15 - 8:40
A - 8:40 - 10:00
S - 10:00 - 11:20
E - 11:30 - 11:50
A - 11:50 - 13:20
S - 13:20 - 15:15
E - 15:15 - 15:40
A - 15:40 - 17:25
S - 17:25 - 18:00 - and here again he woke up and seemed like tummy aces. This time I didn't fed him as I felt he's more tired and upset than hungry.
A - (part of it was crying :-( ) - 18:00 - 19:30 - this included in the end the BT
E - 19:30 - 20:00
And then he went to sleep....He doesn't fell asleep during BF. He fells asleep with paci. Sometimes we need to use pat/sh or to be next to him and more sure he "finds" his place (replug the paci or put my hand on his back).
The reason I give the DF late is because I'm trying to make sure he'll eat. Lately he doesn't eat (when it's pumped milked) or it takes an hour just to feed him with 60ml (about 2 oz).
I feel the evening routine is still confused since I don't know what to do when he wakes up after 40 min from the catnap. It's hard since there are two other sisters and this is the evening dinner and bath for them also....
What should I do?
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Looks like your routine is pretty good. I'm thinking that an ideal A time for him seems to be from about 1 hr 30 - 1 hr 45 min in the morning, and then he handles about 2 hr pretty well after that. I'm looking at the time from when he first wakes until he goes to sleep (the E is actually included in A time). It is definitely difficult when they short nap that last nap, but quite common at this age, because if he's getting two full naps in early in the day, that last one often ends up as a CN.
S - 16:45 - 17:13 (here he woke up. My guess - he suffered from gas, since he woke up a bit crying and I couldn't make him back to sleep. From here things got worse...)
A - 17:20 - 18:00
E - 18:00 - 18:20
A - 18:20 - 19:30
S - 19:30 -
Then I fed him (like a DF) at 20:30 and also tried at 23:30 to give a pumped milk - but he ate only 30ml (1 oz).
What I would have done here is to feed him upon waking, say 17:30ish and then again at about 18:45ish (could be just a top due to the 17:30 feed) and put him to bed at 19:00. This way, he gets a couple cluster feeds to get more into him and an early bedtime due to that short nap. Then, I'd wait and do the DF at 22:30 and just do the one. My guess is that he didn't take much at the 23:30 feed, because he'd already had somewhat of a cluster feed at 18:00 and 20:30, so wasn't super hungry and was also probably in a deeper sleep.
S - 17:25 - 18:00 - and here again he woke up and seemed like tummy aces. This time I didn't fed him as I felt he's more tired and upset than hungry.
A - (part of it was crying :-( ) - 18:00 - 19:30 - this included in the end the BT
E - 19:30 - 20:00
This time I actually think the A time before the nap was a bit too long, it was over 2 hr since he last woke at 15:15. So, I think it was an OT nap. Again, I would have fed him upon waking (after you soothed him a bit: rubbed his tummy/back, did a few bicycles with his legs, walked around, etc), so at about 18:15. Then, I'd do the cluster feed at 19:15 and aim to have him in bed at 19:30, with a DF between 22:30 and 23:00.
I think there's a good chance he's not taking much at the DF from the bottle because it's too late and he's in a deeper part of sleep, or he may just not prefer the bottle at that time. :-\ The DF doesn't seem to work for all babies, so if it's more of a hassle to try to get him to take it, you might try just letting him sleep and feeding him when he wakes. The two NFs he's got right now are totally normal for his age.
I feel the evening routine is still confused since I don't know what to do when he wakes up after 40 min from the catnap. It's hard since there are two other sisters and this is the evening dinner and bath for them also....
What should I do?
It's definitely hard to work everything out in the evening for everyone, I understand that. After a short CN, I guess I'd try to get him in bed earlier if possible and then you can concentrate on bath and such with his sisters. Would that work?
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Thanks again for the support :)
This night it was a bit better. I fed him at about 23:30 (I know it's late - but this is the earlier I could get to him - wasn't available before that).
He woke up at 4:15 and I gave him his paci (I've noticed that in the last few days - besides the day I've published - he woke up every night at this hour. - Is this a habit?) It gave me an extra hour sleep as he woke up again at 5:15. This time I fed him and he got back to sleep at 5:45. Unfortunately he woke up an hour later and we heared his gas :-( My DH holded him and he felt asleep in his hands (but that was the only way to calm him). Finally he slept till 8:45.
We went on a trip today but he managed to sleep in the car for his morning sleep and the 2nd sleep. Now we'll see how it goes this afternoon...
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Sounds like a good night, apart from the gas. :( Are you burping him after you feed him in the night? Both of my kids needed to get that out before going back to sleep peacefully. And if I didn't get it out in time with my DD, she ended up taking in too much milk and then spitting a bunch back up.
That 4:15 am wake could be habitual, but because of his age, it could just be that he's starting to get pretty hungry at that time too. If you don't want to be up twice (once to give him the paci and then again to feed him), I'd just feed him at that time. That's almost a 5 hour stretch from 23:30 to 4:15, which is pretty average for his age, I'd say.
Another thing I thought of last night... at that age and probably til about 4.5-5 mo, I APOPd the late afternoon nap or CN so that I could still get supper made and tend to DD. I either put DS in the wrap/carrier to sleep on me or in the swing. Since he went down independently at other times of the day, it didn't matter that this one time was 'helped' and it was what was best for our family. Any way you could do something like that with him?
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well - thing is that he's already had some nights of 6 hours (2 nights were even 7 hours) so that's why I give the paci. Sometimes it can give me an extra 2 hours of sleep, but I know what you mean.
As for the CN - yes, we do use the carrier so that we can have some quite around or I use the stroller (in which he sleeps in its cot).
What is APOPd?
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Just wanted to update:
Afternoon was not so bad (better than what I've expected) - we got home from the trip and he woke up so I fed him right after we got home (which was 16:25). Then he felt asleep at 18:00 while we were outside doing a short walk with the bikes andd the girls. At 18:40 he moved and I helped him continue his sleep. At 18:55 he was almost awake since my DD2 shouted but we've managed to extend his sleep (so at least we had dinner quitely). At 19:30 I woke him up and fwd him since I didn't want it would be too late for the evening BT and sleep.
This time he ate and then we did his bath. After bath I read him a little story and put him to bed. I was sure it'll take him some time to fell asleep but fortunately, except of twice that I had to replug the paci - it went smoothly.
My plan is to feed him at 23:00.
I just wonder whether I'm doing fine with the afternoons/evening - when he has short naps I try to extend his A time by holding him a bit and doing the BT before the meal. But like today when he had a good nap, I switched and first fed him.
Another question - in the BW book Tracy writes not to do cluster feedings after the age of 8 weeks. Should I use the cluster feedings when he has short naps in the afternoon?
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What is APOPd?
Accidental Parenting on purpose :) Which is what you're doing by having him in the sling for the CN ;)
Another question - in the BW book Tracy writes not to do cluster feedings after the age of 8 weeks. Should I use the cluster feedings when he has short naps in the afternoon?
I cluster fed DS til about 9 months - if it ain't broke, don't fix it :) I didn't do the DF though as it disturbed his sleep...
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OK - so though it has good potential the night wasn't so great...
I fed him at 23:15. I BF so I'm not sure how much he ate. At 3:10 he woke up and I was a bit disappointed - I mean, 4 hours??? I had it when he was few weeks old - so how come??? I gave him his paci and I think I gave it another time during this hour till at 4:10 I fed him. But he didn't eat much... and he pooped. I think this is what bothered him??? Anyway, I was too tired and didn't even change his diaper (yes, I'm a terrible mom) - just didn't want him to fully wake up! and then at about 6:45 he moved and seemed as he will woke up. I took him next to me so that he'll extend his sleep (I really didn't think he's hungry). At 7:45 he fully woke and I BF. Again - he hardly ate. So the next meal was at 11:00 when he woke up from his morning nap...
I know he's small but at this age both my DDs slept much more. The only difference is that I didn't BF them - and their weight was a bit higher.
Am I doing something wrong? God, I'm just getting too tired...
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He could be going through a growth spurt - there's one around this age. He could also be getting more efficient at eating (making you think he's not eating as much).
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no, I don't think so, since he had this growth spurt 2 weeks ago. I can't tell with this guy. The basic things that babies should do - eat and sleep - are things that he's not so good at ;)
I'm very confused with him and the fact that he doesn't gain much weight is quite depressing 'cause he stays little and I don't know whether this affects his sleep at night
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Sorry about the APOP terminology. I should have explained that. :-[
I cluster fed DS too way past 8 weeks, mostly because it just happened naturally. I always feed before bedtime, because it's my favorite feed of the day (we're both relaxed, it's a nice way to wind down before BT, and it's often the only feed besides NFs that we're alone, so no distractions). Anyway, the BT feed often came within 2 hr of the last feed, so that's just how it worked out.
He's definitely at the age where he's probably getting more efficient, so he may not be doing the little feeds you think he is. Since you didn't BF your daughters, have you met with a lactation consultant at all or gotten any BF support? It doesn't always come as naturally as some people claim and there can definitely be a learning curve. This might help with your concern about his weight gain as well.
I know you're frustrated with 4 hr, but I would say the normal range for this age is probably right around 4-6 hr. And not every night is the same... some may be 4 hr some may be 6, every once in a while you may get an 8. They should stretch out on their own over time. If you're not sure he's taking much at the DF, you can always drop it for a few days to a week and see if that makes any difference. Then, you can go to bed earlier too. :)
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I'm very confused with him and the fact that he doesn't gain much weight is quite depressing 'cause he stays little and I don't know whether this affects his sleep at night
My little guy was sleeping pretty well at night (12hr night with 2 NF's still at that age) and only small, so I don't think size is necessarily an issue. Are you tracking his growth on an EBF chart from the World Health Organisation? A lot of doctors still use the old FF charts and the poor BF mummies think they're not feeding their babies enough :(
Out of interest, how big is he?
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well, thing is my expectations were different, and I guess this is my fault :( His two sisters slept much more at night with no feedings at his age...
Tonight it was one of the worst but first I'll aswer all the questions:
1. I've seen BF consultant in the beginning especially since he took him 4 weeks to gain back his birth weight. He was born on week 39 at the weight of 2.5 kg.
2. I saw the EBF charts - he's still small :( He was yesterday 4.280 kg at the age of 3.5 months, but this is his growth.
3. Yesterday at the DF he got his first bottle of formula. After being at the doctor and after thinking of it I've decided I'll try to combine between BF and formula feeding.
So - yeaterday he had a 1.15 min nap in the morning. I've noticed that in the mornings his EASY cycle is more like 3.15-3.30. Then his 2nd nap was 2.15 min but that's because I had to extend it. After 20 mins since he fell asleep he seemed to wake up because something bothered him. I could see that he moves and do faces of discomfort. I used the paci and in the coming hour his nap wasn't smooth. I had to watch him carefully. After an hour I used the colic medicine and then he slept for about an extra hour with no interfere from my side. Unfortunatelly in the afternoon he slept only 35 min and then from the hour of 17:25 I had to make him awake. I used the cluster feeding (BF at 15:20, 17:30 and 19:10). Then DH gave him the DF with the formula and he ate 80 ml (which is quite good for him).
Unfortunately, he woke up at 1:30 AM and since I knew he ate well at 23:00 I gave him the paci. Then he woke at 3:10 and also replug the paci. The same thing was at 4:10 (then I also gave him the colic medicine) and at 5:45 then finally at 6:20 I BF him. He got back to sleep (I admit he slept next to me - once again APOP - I've learned to use this term ;)).
I just felt that he's not that hungry but I can't explain it - just my instincs. But to tell the truth - I'm worried. I'm not sure whether the paci hasn't become a prop...
On the other hand - I believe that if he was hungry he wouldn't fell asleep all the times. Wasn't? WDYT? I just don't want him to be one of those babies that keep waking up at night. I've had 2 successful EASY stories with my girls, and somehow her it doesn't really work....
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Ok, he's small but he's following along the same curve as he was born on, so its not all bad.
Then he woke at 3:10 and also replug the paci. The same thing was at 4:10 (then I also gave him the colic medicine) and at 5:45
This frequent waking points to either hunger or discomfort. It is possible he's got gas - that would be consistent with the grimaces, squirming and generally unsettled sleep. Do you have lots of milk? I had an oversupply and DS didn't gain weight much - 120g in his first 4 weeks of life and I kept getting told I should go to formula because I didn't have enough milk. I did some block feeding to make sure DS was getting more of the fattier milk by draining the breast better and he put on masses of weight (went from gaining 30g/week to 400g/week). Do you think this is a possible solution?
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well, that's the million dollar question - is it hunger or discomfort... I wish I could ask him ;)
I do have enough milk (at least when I pumped I get a full meal in about 15-20 min of pumping). As for the fattier milk - well, that's also a good question. He's a terrible "eater" and used to do me lots of troubles. After 6-7 min of eating he's getting upset and then I moving him to the other breast. Sometimes I have 3-4 "sides" of breast feeding. I was told (by the BF consultant) that the BW method is an old method and now the recommnedation is to switch between the sides since the fattier milk doesn't come only in the end of the meal.
I wish I knew whether he gets the fat part... I try to give him as much as possible from one side, but he's just frustrated (though I know for sure there is still milk on that side). My guess - he's a bit lazy and he like to have his meal with good stream of milk and he doesn't like it when it gets slowlier.
One thing that I think support my assumption that he suffers from discomfort is his day naps - where I can really see how he moves his tummy and ass while sleeping. I can see that he wants to sleep but something bothers him.
I'm so upset with that 'cause I don't know how to help him and me
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well, that's the million dollar question - is it hunger or discomfort... I wish I could ask him ;)
Wouldn't that be great? :) I think one way of determining would be to just feed him when he wakes for a couple nights. You don't have to go less than 4 hr, but feed him on the initial waking after 4 hr and then see what happens. If you do this for 3 nights in a row and he starts going longer stretches after you feed him, then I'd say it was hunger.
It does sound like he's in some discomfort, though, the way you describe his naps and wakings at night. I've heard there is new research that the fattier milk isn't only at the end, and while some of the BW information on BFing isn't completely up-to-date, I also know that there is a lot of research to go with the foremilk/hindmilk thinking. If he's getting too much foremilk, he could be quite gassy and gaining slower, which are both symptoms he has. I'll let Bec chime in on how she block fed as my knowledge of that will be much less than hers.
The other thing I was thinking is if he's been checked for reflux. Not all reflux babies are spitters, there is a version of it called silent reflux. This could be another cause of his discomfort and slow gain.
Ok, he's small but he's following along the same curve as he was born on, so its not all bad.
However, there is definitely something to be said for this. He doesn't have to be a big or quick gainer. Some babies and kids are just smaller. Staying on or near his birth curve is the more important thing.
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I wish I knew whether he gets the fat part... I try to give him as much as possible from one side, but he's just frustrated (though I know for sure there is still milk on that side). My guess - he's a bit lazy and he like to have his meal with good stream of milk and he doesn't like it when it gets slowlier.
Have you tried breast compressions? They worked a treat here :) Also, DS used to get fussy when the second letdown happened as it was a bit of a shock to him - could that be an issue? You could also massage the breast near the chest wall to get the fat to release easier/earlier in the feed - it sticks to the ducts more than the watery components of the milk. http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/basics/foremilk-hindmilk/
Block feeding is feeding off one side for a set period of time/number of feeds to regulate your supply down to what is actually needed so baby gets a balanced meal during a feed. Its usually recommended when LO is gaining well, but it is the reason my son is still BFing at 13 months, rather than having lasted 6 weeks. As I said, he gained VERY slowly and there was plenty of concern from doctor & child health nurse, etc. I fed him from one side for 6 hr (from wakeup feed), then 6hr on the other side (the afternoon) and did the bedtime feed and night feeds from the first side. I did this for about a week before my supply regulated to where it needed to be.
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Thanks, but I don't have "too much" milk - I don't think I should down my supply. I just think that my LO got used to weak sucking. But I can't actually know for sure. I do know that none of my children has a great appetite - even my girls that were fed by formula (in the end) didn't gained so much of weight. I just think it's genetic and I wish the doctors and nurses will understand that some babies have their own curves.
My LO development is great - he smiles a lot, turns from his tummy to the back, raises his head, tries to catch things... I guess my milk is not a cream and also my LO is not a great eater. So the combination gives a thin baby :)
But I'm more worried about his NW - as I'm not sure if it's hunger, habit or discomfort.
Tonight we had a better night - DH fed him with formula at 23:00. He ate only 50ml. At 3:45 he made some noises and DH gave him the paci. At 4:50 he woke and I BF him. This time I knew it'ss hunger and he actually ate a lot. THen he woke up at 7:40. I try to extend his sleep a bit 'cause I knew he won't eat much - and that was true. At 8:15 he hardly ate. Only few min and didn't want to eat more.
I'm still thinking whether this DF actually works...
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You can always drop the DF and see if it makes a difference. For me, the DF was a disaster, DS was up every hour or two with gas and he hardly took anything anyway ::)
I just think that my LO got used to weak sucking.
Try the breast compressions and see if it helps with his frustration at the breast. I don't think block feeding is for you, but breast compressions, I'd back that any day of the week in your situation :)
You could also add more good fats into your diet - nuts, avocados, etc. to beef up your milk a bit...
I just think it's genetic and I wish the doctors and nurses will understand that some babies have their own curves.
You can always come here for reassurance when you've been beaten up about it :) We've got healthy babies who are 98th centile and others who've dropped off the bottom of the charts but they're developing, meeting milestones, etc. FWIW, My doctor was so worried about DS she wanted me to go in between the normal checkups because he was not gaining what she thought he should. She met him at 12 months and I asked about his weight gain and she just said she didn't think it was an issue any more - he's meeting milestones ahead of time and clearly not missing out. The reason doc's are concerned about weight gain at this age is in case it affects development, so if he's developing as he should be which he is, don't worry so much.
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What is breast compressions? Putting hot towel on my breast?
We're doing the DF with formula now (had it for the last 2 days) - not that I think it'll make him sleep more, but more as a supply of calories. I'm temped to drop it, as for my DD2 it didn't really helped (she slept more hours without the DF) - but I'm concerned how it will affect his night, 'cause last night we had about 6 hours with no feeding.
When do they stop farting and burping? God, those things really kills his sleep...
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http://www.nbci.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:breast-compression&catid=5:information&Itemid=17\\
When do they stop farting and burping?
Sorry to say it, DS still gets bad gas now if I'm engorged and don't lie back to feed - wakes up screaming just the same as he did back when he was 3 months old :( For us, it got better (not perfect, but better) at around 5 months but that was when I got my supply under control.
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Hey,
Thanks for the information. Funny thing is that I was doing the compression without even knowing this is something that is known. I try to make hjim stay as much as possible on one side. Unfortunately sometimes he really cries and doesn't want to get back to the first side but when I switch to the other side - he continue eating.
I had a terrible day with him suffering from gas (I actually heard he farting in the end) - took more more than 1.5 hour to make him sleep his 2nd nap. When he farted I've understood that this was gas attack and not OT (as I orignially thought). Eventually he slept for 1 hour and 40 min without any intefere from my side - he was tired. But it caused my breast to be full of mlik since there were more than 4 hours between the meals.
I just hope the night will be better
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Gas can be really painful for the poor little things :(
Is his gas worse when you eat certain foods? DS used to have the most terrible gas if I ate egg...
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well, I haven't noticed to some specific food. I was just hoping that by the age of 3.5 months it'll pass, though DD2 was suffering from it till the age of 4.5 months - and god, it was terrrible with her since she was a sensitive baby so everything bothered her. I spend all my materinity leave just to teach her how to sleep. I really hoped that this LO will be different ;)
Tonight we had quite a good night - DH gave him a DF at 23:20 - he ate 85ml of formula and slept till 5:30am when then I BF him. Unfortunately he pooped and I changed his diaper so he was fully awake - but I didn't have eye contact with him (otherwise he start smiling to me and be fully awake) and though it took him some min to fall back to sleep, he slept till 8:30 with no interferes in the middle.
I keep wondering about the formula DF that we give. We've tried it for the last 3 nights - mostly because of his weight (I don't believe it makes him sleep more). But I wonder if it's better that I'll pump and give him a pumped milk (anyway in the last 3 nights I pumped at about 22:30-23:00 but not full meal - just to reduce the amount of milk).
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I keep wondering about the formula DF that we give. We've tried it for the last 3 nights - mostly because of his weight (I don't believe it makes him sleep more). But I wonder if it's better that I'll pump and give him a pumped milk (anyway in the last 3 nights I pumped at about 22:30-23:00 but not full meal - just to reduce the amount of milk).
This is your personal choice. If you want to BF exclusively, then yes, you look at pumping for the DF. If you're ok with the mix feeding, then do that.
Here is a thread where this question was asked: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=222356.0