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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Khalam's Mama on August 27, 2012, 07:04:04 am
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I have been using Pupd to wean some ew. I have been doing it for weeks and we are now not feeding at ew but he is still waking daily at 5 or 5.30 and settles in a few minutes. I would just really like him to stop waking.
He is almost on one nap but gets ot with more than 2 days in a row only one nap. He rarely takes longer than 1.5 hrs. Before 11 he takes 1.5hrs and after 11 it will be less. His Wu is 6 to 6.30 am and his bt 6 or 7 depending if he has one or 2 naps.
I am considering w2s but not sure i can stir him without waking him. Also thinking I should iron out the routine.
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what happens if he has a 15 min am nap and then a longer pm? Does that help at all? M is the same, she cannot do more than 2 days on 1 nap atm without getting OT.
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He is just awful when I wake him so we tend to do short pm. I did 15min today so will see. I find he wakes the same time every day whatever his naps so I find it hard to judge. It also doesn't fit with my schedule to do long pm.
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ok so maybe long am and then a 15 min pm will work....it sounds like his A times just need to catch up a bit. We started 1 nap at 13 months but 2 months later and she is still not there.
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He can do a long A without to much stress but he gets ot I guess because he wakes early from it. If he would just do 2hrs or more he would be ok. Soon I will have K's nursery run to battle too.
Tonight he took a while to settle at bt and think I did bt too early.
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Ew at 5.20 then slept to 8.10! Don't know what that was about? Will do w2s tonight.
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We are having the same thing! However, we are feeding at EW b/c it was easier when it started and a way to get more calories into my boy who won't eat enough during the day. But now I think it is perpetuating itself b/c he gets those calories, plus the habit of waking at that time, doesn't take more calories during the day and continues the habitual waking. I need to break this before work starts next week!!!
We are also teetering between one nap and two. Mostly we were doing one, but we went away for the week to the shore and he's been running on OT from short napping or doing two catnaps while walking in the stroller or going for a ride in the car and so I have to catch him up before he'll be back on one nap again. I think OT def. makes it easier to wake at that early 5 am ish time. He will usually go back to sleep if I give that bottle, but if not then he's up for the day at the early time! Ick.
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I was lucky that when we 1st started to wean the nf at ew he did go back to sleep. I had to do it when dh was around in case he didnt and I knew I could catch up.
After the 8am Wu he short napped so had 2. My mum said he went down 11.20 which is a short a time but later than he normally goes. Not sure why he slept in though whether he needed to catch up then was ot from later nap? Hard to say when I wasn't there. Dh has them tomorrow. Not sure what to advise.?
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So I did w2s at 4am, I heard b call out for his nana at 5.30 and then we all slept again until 6.20. So Good start. I will do it a week or so and fx that will be that.
Will let dh work out nap I guess.
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good lucK KM - sounds like a good start x
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Hmm that only worked once. Other days he has woken 5.40 and mostly refused to go back to sleep.
It has been 5days now. Not sure what to do?
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KM - what time is he napping most days? We had an issue with EW at same age as your DS. At the time, my DS started waking around 5.30am, he was napping 11/11.30am for up to 2hrs & bed 6.30ish (earlier if nap was shorter). We were constantly doing early naps & EBT to try & prevent him getting OT from his EW & I eventually learned this was actually fuelling it. What we did was very slowly, push DS's nap later, by 15mins per week. I let him sleep 2hrs max & did BT 5hrs later. So:
Week: 1 Nap: 11.15-1.15 BT: 6.15
Week: 2 Nap: 11.30-1.30 BT: 6.30
Week: 3 Nap: 11.45-1.45 BT: 6.45
Week: 4 Nap: 12.00-2.00 BT: 7.00
In the first couple of weeks there were some days when he still woke early & he had a 7hr A before his nap, and he short napped, but we stuck with it & eventually his bodyclock 'clicked'. It was tough, & maybe not the preferred route for everyone (since it does push them to the brink of exhaustion), but it really did work. We found we had to get him to a 12.30pm nap for 2hrs & a 7/7.30pm BT in order to see a radical improvement in his EW.
HTH.x
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I think that you have struggled with his routine forever, is that right? I wonder if perhaps it's not a routine issue, but just a habit. When we had ew issues with e, we decided to stop feeding her first thing and teach her that she needed to sleep later. We gave her a light on a timer, initially set to about 15 minutes after she normally woke up; the first morning I went through when she woke up, told her it was still sleepy time and stayed with her until the light came on. When it did, I made a big deal out of it being morning and we got up. It took 3 mornings for her to understand - the 3rd morning she watched until the light came on then pointed at it and held her arms up! I think she was 17ish months, but I bet that b would get it if you tried it. I am waiting for x's last tooth to cut and I will do it for him as well - we haven't had any problems at all with e since we taught her about the light.
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Thanks girls. It was 5.46 today so slowly creeping later.
I am slowly pushing the nap later Claire. It is a struggle when he only does 1hr10min if it is later than 11 to do one nap though. He has managed 1 nap the last few days do hopefully wr are getting there.
On days I work it is esp. hard because HR sleeps with any buggy or car ride. I carried him 20mins today to prevent a second nap late in the day.
Yes Claire we have always struggled with his routine and it does not make a lot of difference what I do to tweak. It was nw but I think these ew are even more annoying.
I will cont with the w2s at least a week since the Wu is slowly slipping later and keep pushing the nap later too and just keep pushing through to bt.
I did put him down at 6.15 tonight though. He usually sleetps better with ebt so gets more sleep. He has cried out with ot several times already.
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In my house 6pm bt wud always = 5am wu! I think u are doing the right thing to push nap and bt later. Then if u can resettle the Ew u can get on a better routine. I think is normal to short nap during 2-1, so 1.5hr sounds gd xx
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I've only put him down 6ish 2or3x and he has always slept a longer night in total tg.
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:-) my lo is lsn so i had to push bt and nap and resettle ews for a few days to fix! Xx
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I figure if he ew in the early hrs the earlier it is the more likely I will be able to resettle?
I also meant to say, there is a gro clock in the boys room but b does not seem to get it yet. I will keep trying. Thanks ladies.
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I agree with Clare about it being a habit. M has always been an EW'er. It has been lots better the last month or so since I removed contact a lot more. This am she woke at 5am which is the earliest for ages and then talked for a bit but went back to sleep...so I agree, more likely to go back to sleep if they wake earlier. If she wakes around 5.45/6am then she is up for the day.
I am going to give her a gro-clock but not until about 18 months - let me know if you have success.
Hugs KM - I know what it is like dealing with it for so long!
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The light is easier for them to understand than the groclock so they will be able to understand it at an earlier age.
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aah, ok. I read for the gro-clock to start it at 2 but I guess the lights are more simple. Maybe I will try that if the 5am's continue!
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If you think about it, we actually start teaching them that dark=sleep, light=awake as soon as we put thm in a blacked out room for a nap - it's just extending it to a specific moment.
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But isn't the gro clock just a light with a clock in the middle?
I slept through the w2s time this morning and he was up 5.10 for a good 30mins the slept until 6.35.
He went to sleep independently with no crying this evening for the 1st time in ages so I hope that is a gd sign.
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M is doing this atm...waking around 5/5.30am but then going back to sleep. Not sure what it is all about.
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Did w2s at 4am then he cried out at 5 and then slept until 6.10. I am sure it is mainly habitual and depends on ut or ot whether he goes back to sleep.
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From what I have seen, the groclock has a picture of the sun when it is time to get up and a picture of the moon when it is time to sleep - it's a bit mor complicated than light/dark.
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I doubt I'm any help KM, but wanted to just jump in and say DS understood the lights on a timer after several days (I did need to stay in his room with him sometimes, and also PU as he was getting upset with waiting in the dark and me telling him it was still night time) when he was 17 months. I made the lights very bright so there is a big difference between the dark room and light room (energy saving bulbs come on reasonably slowly and brighten up which actually helps with the transition from dark to light too).
I did find though that we had SO many things go on (canines, virus, asthma, developmental leaps bringing a good dose of SA...the list goes on) that I could not possibly expect him to stay in bed until the lights came on. If he woke ill or teething at 5am it would have been cruel to make him wait, even with me there with him, until 6am or later. I had to ditch the lights on a timer and there's been no opportunity to reintroduce yet because these illnesses and teething have been on and off (mainly on) for almost 3 months!
Anyway - point being if it is purely habitual I think B will understand the lights in a short space of time. Like pps have said the lights are easier to understand, although B is young he'll get it.
xx
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There is a pic of a moon and sun but the moon is set with no back light so can't be seen in the dark and then the sun is back lite with a yellow light and you can't actually see the sun from across the room so it is effectively just a light on or off from what b can see. It is set at 7am for k so not sure how to work it. I don't want a light coming on as well or k will likely get up early. Hmmm. I will have a think.
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Oh crumbs I'm sorry. I totally didn't think about K! I'd be useless with 2 wouldn't I? I'd keep forgetting one of them!
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Lol, sure you would not if he was yours.
I haven't done w2s the last too days because he has woken around 3 or 3.30 himself, he puts himself back off again but it just seems too soon. He has then woken 5.30 and I have been resettling until 6. Most days he has been having 1 nap so it has been easier that way.
Have been pushing nap later but getting lots of short 1hr naps but just pushing to
7pm bt still.
Not sure where else to go really.
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Have been pushing nap later but getting lots of short 1hr naps
What's he like before and after the nap? Do you think the 1 hr might be his sleep cycle length and he's a bit UT for the nap? I don't know what time the nap is but is it poss to push a bit further even if it risked an OT short nap because I found it easier to resettle an OT nap wake up and result in a longer nap where as an UT nap wake up there is no resettling.
Have you tried a W2S on the nap? Rather than rousing be there for the last part of the short nap and begin to resettle either before he wakes or immediately he wakes so he doesn't get fully alert. I've done that with DS through certain phases and found I could nip in, get him back to sleep and out of the room again within 2 mins if I really watched the clock and went in at the right time.
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It is def ot because it is only when I push past 11am. Earlier he will take 1.5hrs without fail. It varies 1-1hr20 so it. Is hard to know when to go in and let k for any period of time.
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I see.
If he's getting OT from the EW and needing a nap too early to balance the day my only other suggestion is if you get a bad night (for any reason, teething etc), not be in too much of a hurry to get him back to sleep so that when he does sleep he goes past the EW to a much later WU (if that's possible with K there too) which could help move the nap later. I've done this with DS a few times, not disturbing him at night but when there's been a rough time from SA, teething or illness I've used it to kick start a change in routine.
Most recently a 2hr NW (for what? SA? developmental/language?) enabled me to push nap and BT. After a couple of days the nap went back to it's previous time (12.30) but was longer so BT could still be the new later time (8pm)...and that pushed his morning WU an hour later (more like 6 - 6.30 now instead of 5).
I know this isn't a great plan, worth keeping in mind if a bad night crops up though.
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Funny enough I managed to get him to sleep until 7.35 this morning after w2s at 4.30am and a resettle at 6am (as bt was 8.40pm).
He napped 11.30-1pm so not too short. He survived until 7pm Bt so lets see how tonight goes. Should I still do w2s at 4 or 4.30? Not sure???
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I'm no help with night W2S, every time I tried it with DS he woke up even earlier the next night, pre-empting my W2S. I still try once in a while though :)
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He woke at 5.40am again after w2s at 4am. Am I doing the right thing? I do not like these early mornings.
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This is driving me mad now. Last night he was awake on and off from 3am so no w2s. The few days before I was doing w2s at 4am and he was waking 5.30 to 5.50ish and not really going back off again. Argh so frustrating.
He has been having one nap but mostly 1hr20mins so nor enough and making the second A really long.
I just don't know what else to try...any ideas greatly appreciated.
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it sounds to me like he is high sleep needs KM....and a 1.20 is generally OT when on one nap. Could you not go back to 2 naps for another 6 weeks or so? I think you said a long am nap was better for your schedule than a long pm - is that right?
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it sounds to me like he is high sleep needs KM....and a 1.20 is generally OT when on one nap. Could you not go back to 2 naps for another 6 weeks or so? I think you said a long am nap was better for your schedule than a long pm - is that right?
^^ was going to say the same thing!
Hugs. We are in a similar boat although E is still having a night feed every night that I cannot bring myself to wean as I *know* she will just EW every day ::).
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I think it is actually quite normal for some lo's to need 2 naps up until about 18 months....DS did and DD is looking at being the same and tbh I would not describe either of them as being high sleep needs.
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He has been having one nap but mostly 1hr20mins so nor enough and making the second A really long.
When we moved to 1 nap (which was early) the nap was short like yours but it was just about impossible to get 2 naps. I just ploughed through with the short nap and EBT. Luckily nights went to 12+ hrs to make up for the short nap (at times up to 13hrs) and eventually the nap lengthened. It was possibly the best phases we've ever had (for me anyway) because morning WUs were 7am instead of 5am.
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When we moved to 1 nap (which was early) the nap was short like yours but it was just about impossible to get 2 naps. I just ploughed through with the short nap and EBT.
We were the same here - took a good few weeks for the nap to lengthen so just had to ride it out in the mean time.
One thing I will say is that I have found with DS his early waking is very strongly linked with the timing of the nap. If he naps early, he wakes early. I do wonder if that is the case with your DS, KM. I know you have the issue of him short napping if you push the nap post 11am, whereas before then he'll nap for longer BUT doing an early nap is likely keeping you in the early waking cycle. He will always be shattered come BT because his PM A time was too long, and he'll wake early because he can catch up on his night sleep with the early nap. The combination keeps him in an OT loop.
For my DS, pushing the nap later (gradually 15mins/week) helped break the EW cycle. We had to do this at exactly this age, & went from an 11-11.30am nap to a 12.30pm nap over the course of 6 weeks. We had a few hellish weeks of OT while we pushed the nap to lunchtime, & then he suddenly started sleeping in til 7am. I never believed it would happen but it did. Is that something you would be willing to try?
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The last few days he has been going down at 11.30am - 12pm so this is exactly what I am trying (make the nap later). Today he actually napped 1hr 45mins. TBH he is no worse with 1 nap than he was on 2 so I am loathe to try to get 2 back. He had started refusing a second nap when I had tried because of short am naps until about 4 or 5pm when obviously i do not want him to nap then or BT would be so so late.
I guess i will just grit my teeth and push through and just hope that it slowly creeps later over time. Now K is at school 9-12 5 days a week i will need him to nap later anyway as otherwise he would have to be up for me to pick up K by 12. It may well work out that he sleeps in teh bugy on the way to pick him up but TBH he sleeps as well in the buggy as he does in the cot so it may not matter. And if I am quick (like 1st 15mins) I can transfer to the cot when we get in.
Thanks for all your help.