BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: lynners on October 19, 2012, 11:11:59 am
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My LO doesn't wake up loudly at night so I'm now wondering if it really is because of hunger - it's more of a whimper/chat/grunt, not a cry/scream. I've always fed him though as the NW's tended to be around 3 or 4-ish hours apart so I've assumed hunger. Granted he does eat when I offer it but that doesn't necessarily mean a lot.
I've decided if any NW's are less than 4 hours apart (which is how long he can last in the day) to not feed and either allow to re-settle or shhh back to sleep (doesn't seem to like the pat). A couple of times I've left him just chattering/whimpering at his first NW to see what would happen and it has escalated so I have fed him but maybe we should be shh-ing him to sleep. Do you think an NW is ever for hunger if they don't wake up screaming for it (DS1 woke loudly but I'm not sure if that's the norm)? I do appreciate that our nights are pretty typical for his age (one DF and 1 or 2 NW's) but if he is not waking for hunger I'd really rather not re-inforce the night feeds. Hey who wouldn't want their LO to STTN if at all possible.
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I think how they wake depends on the personality of the baby really! My two were never screamers for food, even in the night! At 3 months though if it's been at least 4 hours from the last feed I would definitly assume hunger and feed. I think trying to resettle if it's less than 4 hours is fine, if he doesn't settle quickly, the cry escalates or he wakes soon after settling then I would also assume hunger and feed.
HTH!
Laura
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Thanks for your advice. So with your two did the NW's for feeds just slowly disappear or did you have to settle them through NW's to teach them to STTN. IF so how did you feel confident whether or not an NW was for hunger if they didn't scream - as they got older I mean.
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We did activly wean nightfeeds, but my two were refluxers who wouldn't take a dreamfeed so they were a bit different. I can't remember what we did with DS, but with DD we activly weaned the nightfeed when she was just over 8 months. She was taking a good amount of milk and was fairly well established on solids by then so I knew she was getting enough in the day. We weaned the feed by reducing it by 1oz every 3 nights and then just offered water when the bottle got down to about 2oz.
It is quite common for babies to still need the nightfeed up until they are established on solids. If they take a feed in the night and are hungry when they first wake up you know they do need that feed, sometimes the night feed starts having an impact on the first feed of the day and then it's better to reduce it a bit or wean it.
As a rule of thumb though if you can settle them but they wake within the next 30 or so minutes it's generally because they are hungry!
Laura
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Thanks Lolly - really helpful.
Often my LO's first feed isn't great. I'm breastfeeding at the moment so to potentially reduce the feed at the NW is a bit tricky, but perhaps I could get my husband to try and re-settle and, if it's over four hours, assume it is hunger either if he won't re-settle or of he re-settles and wakes up within half an hour.
I know he's still young but what do you think?
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I would get your DH to resettle up to 4 hours, once you get to the 4 hour point I would assume hunger and just feed to be honest. Breastfed babies do need nightfeeds longer than bottle fed babies because breastmilk is so quickly digested - the nightfeeds are also good for your long term supply.
I always found feeding and resettling quickly much easier than trying to resettle only to be up again shortly afterwards feeding!
Laura
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We did shorter feeds for a bit-- one sided feeds work to get enough in them to hold them over but still hungry awake up time.
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Thanks ladies - much appreciated x
Erin M - I already only do one-sided feeds at night. When I decide to reduce them have you any other tips for making them shorter. Do I just keep taking him off in the hope that he won't want more, but give him more if he does? I remember that being along the lines of the 'Pantley's Removal Plan' which I used with DS1 so he learnt not to fall asleep at the breast.
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I'd try shortening the duration and then trying to settle him in his bed after that. The Pantley stuff works really well for some, but it seems to make others just frustrated.
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Thanks Erin. The theory of shortening is good but I'm not sure how well it would work on my LO. If he still wants to keep going he'd be very fractious I think.
Normally in the day time my LO is very much in control of how much food he wants i.e. he feed until he's full and then pulls off. Great in that he doesn't comfort suck but his day feeds can often feel shorter than his night ones and no amount of encouraging can get him back on ::)
With his night feeds sometimes he can feed effectively and then just pull off to sleep. Last night he woke at 1.20 and did just that, but the 5.00 feed he seemed to guzzle and then comfort suck, pull himself off then get upset and start rooting again. He did this about 10 times. I eventually thought maybe I was empty and he wanted some more so I relented and offered him the other side which he took (certainly not offering him less!) But now I think he really was comfort sucking because he was perfectly happy when latched on. It was only when off he was getting fractious...and of course when he woke up at 7.20 he wasn't the least bit interested in food and only had a tiny bit an hour or so later. Hmmm.
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Yes, that whole shortening thing is much easier in theory! Does it throw your day off to feed at 5 and then top up at 7? Sometimes it's just what they need to do at that age.
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No it's not a disaster but I suppose the combination of the fact that LO wakes so quietly at night and that his 7.00 morning feed tends to be negligible makes me question how much he needs the 4/5 feed.
PP Laura made me realise that not all babies scream out for food so my baby's whimper/chat may mean hunger, but today when he woke at 5 he literally was just kicking about in the moses basket for a while without being vocal at all for at least 5/10 minutes before he started making gentle noises.
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You might need a routine tweak to make the 5AM waking go away then -- wakings at that point are not often due entirely to hunger, but once they're awake, our LOs might decide that they are actually hungry and that a feed might be nice, YK?
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Hi Erin,
Feel like I'm juggling you on two boards now. Sorry about that but everything's so interlinked. Thanks so much for your response.
As you know from the Naps board I am trying to tweak my routine around my school runs so hopefully that might also help with the NW's as you suggest.
Last night we had an NW at 3.20 when I fed and then another at 5.50 - only 2 1/2 hours apart and I know I'd said I wasn't going to feed unless it was at least four hours but I did feed. Aaaargh!!! ::) I was thinking I need to get LO to be able to sleep until my preferred WU time of 7.15 to work around the school runs, so I just chose the easier way - feeding rather than settling. On the plus side he did go back to sleep and needed to be woken at 7.15. On the negative side, here I am trying to reduce the night feeds if possible but I seem to be adding to/reinforcing them. Annoyed at myself but also torn between the importance of a later wake up and not feeding at night when LO's not properly hungry. :-\
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Feel like I'm juggling you on two boards now
So true. I'll get with the naps mods so we can put these two together so it makes more sense for everyone. :)
Last night we had an NW at 3.20 when I fed and then another at 5.50 - only 2 1/2 hours apart and I know I'd said I wasn't going to feed unless it was at least four hours but I did feed. Aaaargh!!! I was thinking I need to get LO to be able to sleep until my preferred WU time of 7.15 to work around the school runs, so I just chose the easier way - feeding rather than settling.
Ugh, it's so hard isn't it, especially because you're trying to get him to sleep to get the better nap and get rid of the EWs, right? I'd see how your day goes and then if it doesn't go well, you can beat yourself up over feeding at 5ish (just kidding, don't beat yourself up at all over it...).
You'll have to let us know how your day works out!
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So true. I'll get with the naps mods so we can put these two together so it makes more sense for everyone. :)
Thank you :)
especially because you're trying to get him to sleep to get the better nap and get rid of the EWs, right?
Exactly!!!
The day went ok - will just have to see how tonight goes. Day was-
S 7.15
DF 10.00
E 3.20
E 5.50 ::)
WU 7.15
A
E 8.15
A
S 9.05 - 9.45 (1h 50 had been my A-10 for before 1st nap and after 40min UT naps but as it didn't work here and LO woke up happy I thought I'd risk 2h for the next reduced A - which worked!!! His A time seems to be increasing ridiculously but there you have it.)
A
E 11.00
A
S 11.45 - 13.45
E 13.45
A
S 15.55 - 17.55 (Had discussed with Sara that after a CN before bed I should only have an A of about 45-60m, but because it was a 'reverse day' I guessed that I would need a little more A before bed - ???)
E 17.55 Snack
A/bath etc
E Not a great feed (Before speaking to Sara re. A time after CN I tended to do about 1h40 ish and have an E at the beginning and at the end as of sort of cluster feed but as this A is less now maybe I shouldn't do this and just have the one last feed so it should be a good one ???)
S 19.15
...will be back with the fun of tonight in the morning x
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His A time seems to be increasing ridiculously but there you have it.
Yeah, they'll do some crazy jumps in A time sometimes, hard to keep up with!
Before speaking to Sara re. A time after CN I tended to do about 1h40 ish and have an E at the beginning and at the end as of sort of cluster feed but as this A is less now maybe I shouldn't do this and just have the one last feed so it should be a good one
He's probably old enough now that you could lose the cluster and just do the last feed before bed.
Hope the night is good!
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Ok so here was my night and today. Would appreciate your thoughts. (great to be posting in just one spot now - thanks Sara :) )
S 7.15pm
DF 10.15
NW and E 2.00
NW and settling with shushing (no E) 3.30 – 4.30 very cranky, pretty horrid, haven’t had NW’s this close together since the first few weeks but at least then slept to…
WU 6.55 (Which is great for us. I’m sure could have made it to 7.15 but my husband got up and that woke him. Thinking of moving LO to his own room next week which should hopefully help with that. Not a disaster that he woke before 7.15 because DS1 still ill and off school. He’ll be back tomorrow though so hope to get it better then)
E 7.10 WU (was quiet and happy and although feed was better than if we have a 5 ish feed as well, he still wasn’t starving after not being fed for 5 hours.)
A
S 8.48 – 10.10 (Put him down at 9.45 allowing his normal 10 minutes to settle but he was gone in 3 minutes and didn’t make the full 2 hours )
E 10.15 (Woke up cranky and much hungrier. Fine after he ate.)
S 12.15-2.10
E 2.10 (Again woke up crankier and hungrier)
S 4.15-4.55 (Woke up quietly on his own and started going back to sleep. Often stirs/wakes up for a tiny bit at the 40 minute mark. (Have a video monitor for spying with ;-) Decided to get him up as per Sara’s suggestion to just have CN and earlier BT in this situation. Fingers crossed we don’t end up with an EW but it certainly didn’t work having a long nap at the end of the day yesterday re. NW's)
A
E 6.00 (Ditched cluster feed - thanks Erin!)
S 6.35 (Had planned to do only about an hour A is Sara recommended but due to DS1 being ill didn’t quite go to plan.)
Knackered today after 5 days of DS1 being ill. Really would like to get DS2 on track.
Thanks ladies :-*
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OK, a few thoughts --
that long nap to BT would mess with our early mornings, so it could be that getting him up from the CN was a good decision (hoping for tonight!)
just wondering, have you ever tried not feeding at WU and delaying the feed until about midway through A time? I'm wondering if you let him eat a little bit later if it would help stretch out your naps and maybe have him not so cranky when he wakes? Do you think he'd be content to wait awhile?
The cranky wakings could really just be him getting used to the new A time -- you got some great naps out of it, so I think you're on the right track with the extended A times.
Hope your ds1 feels better soon, it's really hard when everybody needs you!
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Great night and pretty good day thanks. Could particularly do with comments on the second nap.
S 18.35
NW 2.00 (woke up grunting, left to self-soothe/mantra and he went back to sleep within about 10 minutes, no probs.)
NW 4.00 (Played it safe pushing for my later WU and fed. Next week DS1 is on school holidays so WU time not as vital. Would leave this a bit longer to see if he is really hungry.)
WU 7.15 (EBT after CN seems to have been our friend!!)
E 7.20 (Not great feed, although usually feed on his own and this morning fed in DS1’s room while getting DS1 ready. Juggling new routine, will try and get DS2 some quiet time for feed in future if possible.)
S 9.25-11.15 (Put down at about 9.10 when back from school. Took a little longer to settle. Had to wake at 11.15.)
E 11.15
S 13.27- 14.10 (Woke up quietly and tried to put himself back to sleep and just couldn’t. Started getting upset. Needed feeding to calm down. Perhaps would have been better if I had fed I middle of previous A as suggested by Erin. Unfortunately had to feed before I went out with LO that particular A. Maybe look at usually feeding in the middle of A’s, particularly while adjusting to these new A’s. Not sure if I need to look at pushing this A to get a full sleep or if I was just unlucky. Only been on this A for a couple of days. Increasing the A again already would also make it tricky to get a full nap in before the pm school run so would rather not, although of course better to get an almost full nap than just 40 mins.)
E 14.10
S 16.35-17.15 (Put to bed at 16.00. Took ages to go to sleep but was very calm)
E 17.55
S 18.40
Many thanks
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Great night! :)
That second nap -- I'm really not so sure you need to push that A time much farther -- 2 hours at his age is where we'd expect him to be -- what is your sense, has he always been on the high side of A times (well as much as you've been able to notice in a little less than 4 months?) -- I might keep to 4ish hours for a few days and see where it gets you. Although the fact that he did a full A time and then took some time to fall asleep after that short nap makes me wonder if he does need a touch more A time. I'm going to say try it for a few days at 2 hours and then if it's not working maybe push it out a touch again.
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Thanks again Erin. It's always such a relief when I get up bleary eyed in the morning to see a post from you. It is so appreciated :-*
Now on to something fabulous....our night. I couldn't wait until the end of the day to post our whole EASY because I was just too darn excited about our night. So here it is...
S 18.40
DF 10.30 (Normally 10 o'clock but DH and I actually went out for a couple of hours together last night. Yay for MIL)
NW 3.00 (Left to self soothe. Gentle mantra then back to sleep in no more than 10 mins...Bliss)
NW 4.30 (Left to self soothe. Gentle mantra then back to sleep in no more than 10 mins...Double bliss)
WU 7.15 (Had to wake up - insane amounts of bliss :D :D :D)
That's right, no feeding from DF!! And when he woke at 7.15 he actually a great feed rather than the pathetic snack I've been getting used to. Hooray! Onwards and upwards.
One other question though. The clocks change here in the UK on Saturday. It goes back an hour so we need to extend our day's EASY by an hour. I've been reading lots of suggestions about how to do this on the site and I think I'l try extending tomorrow by half an hour and then the following day by half an hour. Do you think it would work if rather than waking him from his long naps at 2 hours it was 2hrs 15 mins (if possible) on both days. I don't know though if that would create a bit too much daytime sleep and affect our fab night though. Maybe I add 10 mins to each nap and 10 mins to our final A before bed for each day. What do you think ? Of course if I could let him sleep the extra hour in the morning I would do that.
Aaahh the joys of time changes just when we're doing well ;)
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Sorry also meant to say yes I agree re. A times. He has tended to be higher re. A times but I think we'll stick with where we are for a bit because there's been such an increase recently. Fingers crossed.
DS1 was back in school yesterday because he seemed better but only made it to lunch time and came home again very poorly :( On the plus side though because he's off today and it half-term next week we've got a week and half to get DS2's routine happening (and possibly moving DS2 in to his own room) before we get back to school.
Thanks again Erin.
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WOOHOO!! :) :)
LOL, I always do one last check of posts before I go to bed, so I'm probably posting while you're (hopefully) sleeping!
Ugh, the time change, I think we've got ours in 2 weeks here! The 10 minute plan might be a big gentler, though TBH I always wait until after the clocks change and then just try to make it work from there. I don't think there's very sound logic in that approach though. ::) With all the tweaking and pushing you've been doing lately, I would think it's not actually going to be that bad (we can hope). How's that for a vague answer?
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Not quite time for sleeping but yes hopefully I'll be doing more of that tonight than I did last night. I was just so excited by all his self-soothing I couldn't sleep at all!
So today was this -
DF 10.30
NW 3.30 (Self soothed)
NW 5.00 (Self soothed)
WU 7.15 (had to wake up!)
E 7.15 (great feed)
A
S 9.20 – 10.00 (Put down at 9.10) Think we do need an A increase - woke calmly
A
E 11.15 (good feed)
A
S 12.15 – 14.15(put down at 12.05)
E 14.20 (great feed)
A
S 16.30 (put down at 16.15) 17.10
A
E 17.50
S 18.40
So think maybe we do need another 10 minutes added to his first A. Not sure about between the two long naps if we get them. His first A has always been 10 minutes less than a full A but maybe he needed more because he'd had such a good night sleep. What do you think?
The other thing that was brilliant was that without any night feeds his daytime feeding was soooo much better. ;D
Fingers crossed for tonight. Too exciting.
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I was just so excited by all his self-soothing I couldn't sleep at all!
LOL! Self-soothing is really very exciting. :)
Your first A sounds like it needs to be pushed out a little bit, probably not all that much, but I think 10 minutes would do it (and yes, they do often need more A time after a solid night). If you get a long first nap, he probably will need more A time between the naps too.
Glad the daytime feeds are better too. :)
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Well our night was ok – certainly not as good as last night - but the day was a bit out. Not sure what to do about our A. He just seems to need more and more. Please let me know what you think.
S 18.50
DF 22.30
NW and E 4.30 (Left to see if he’d self soothe but cry escalated and sounded hungry. Hope he was hungry rather than just struggling to re-settle ??? ) On the plus side he slept to ..
7.55 (helping us push his day forward with the change of clocks!)
S 10.15 – 10.55 (Gosh I think he needs even more A!!!)
E 10.55
A
E 13.05 Was about to put him down and he really started rooting which was unusual – maybe 4 month GS ???
S 13.22 – 15.20 Woke up for 10 minutes after 40 minutes and stirred after the next 40 then back to sleep thanks goodness. Even more A needed ???
E 15.20
A
E 17.25 Started rooting again ???
S 17.50 - 18.30
A
E 18.50
S 19.50
Thanks so much
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E 13.05 Was about to put him down and he really started rooting which was unusual – maybe 4 month GS
Ugh, I looked at your ticker yesterday and was thinking you're right there but didn't want to say anything and jinx it. ::) If he seems hungry, I'd feed him -- they definitely do some back and forth at this age with needing/not needing extra feeds due to growth spurts.
And yes, it does sounds like you need to up that A time even more -- it will work for a few days while they get used to it, and then once they're used to it, it needs to be upped again (until you finally hit the right A time). Glad to hear about the 7:55 -- if you've got clock changes and the potential 4 mo GS, just keep trying to read those cues and you'll get through it ok.
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Thanks Erin. Another great night – Yippee. ;D Don’t know what happened to the growth spurt thing. Will just have to take it as it comes. Still haven’t cracked what our full A is though. Here was our day -
S 19.50
DF 22.30
NW 1.20 (Settled easily in 5 minutes, no E)
NW 5.00 (4.00 New time with clocks changed – chatted and gurgled for about half an hour then back to sleep, no E, almost like a UT NW ??? Seems insane with the amount of A he’s getting.)
WU and E 6.38 New time (7.38 Old) – no E since DF!!! ;D (Pity I'm still not sleeping though ::))
A
New times from here…
S 8.57 – 11.10 (put down at 8.53 – we got the right first A today!!! Put him down at 2h 15min)
E 11.10
A
S 13.45 – 14.55 (put down at 13.35. Woke up calmly for 10 minutes at 40 mins then only slept a little more. Woke up cranky – more A for this tomorrow??? Am seriously adding 10 minutes every day or two. He seemed to be getting really tired when I put him down but the wake up concerns me. Also time between E’s are getting really long for his age. Would I have to consider capping naps once I get the right A in between two long ones? We're not going to be able to get a CN in soon with these A times and I don't know how I'm going to work this around my school runs - a full nap in the morning then two short ones isn't ideal. School runs are between 8.45 - 9.05 and 3.10 - 3.30. Any ideas? Desperately scanning other people's routines for solutions.)
E 14.55
A
S 17.10 – 17.20 (Unfortunately woke up. DH wasn’t sure what to do as I was out picking up DS1 from a party. DS2 did go back to sleep after half an hour. Sounds like he was getting a bit cranky by the end of the half hour but more of a crankier mantra than a “ I need you’ cry so then…
S 17.50 – 18.20
E 18.50
S 19.30
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Wow, more A time I guess! The other thing is that when he becomes more mobile, he might pull back on the A times a little. School runs are not fun, we had one with my ds all last year. Focus on getting one long good nap for sure and then go from there is really the best you can do.
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Yes I think you're right re at least one good nap. Pretty sure with our A times on a non-school day with full naps we'd only fit in two naps now though without a catnap.
Another great night ;D and another day of needing even more A ::).
S 19.30
NW 2.30 Back to sleep in 5mins, no E
NW 4.30 Back to sleep in 5mins, no E
WU and E 6.55
S 9.20 – 10.00 Aaaargh Clearly that A only worked for yesterday!
E 10.00
A
S 12.35 – 14.45 But woke up calmly at 40 mins for about 10 minutes – We need even more A. This is insane. He’s needing as much as a 6 or 7 month old
E 14.45
E 17.05 Hungry/rooting
S 17.25 – 18.05
E 18.50
S 19.35
Moving him in to his own room tonight while we’re on a role at night. Fingers crossed. Will see how it goes.
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Keep at it! Hope it continues!
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Oh Erin. Fantastic night. Horrible day. Just lost with our A times now. Seem to have gone from UT days to OT day. Please help.
S 19.35
NW 2.00 Re-settled
WU and E 6.29 :)
S 9.03 – 9.43
E 10.00
A
E/Snack 12.10 Rooting
S 13.20 – 13.50 (put down at 12.18, OT and very hard to settle)
A
E 14.30
A
S 16.50 – 17.50 (put down at 16.10, very OT, hard to settle – woke at 17.50)
E 17.50
A
E 18.10
S 18.45
The only thing I can think is that maybe I missed his exact WU time as he's in a different room although I have the monitor on and when he woke up from his first 40 min nap he was calm so certainly didn't seem OT then. Something went very wrong between first and second nap. We went out for coffee with some friends at that time so maybe more stimulated A but not overly. ??? Definitely prefer a UT bubba than an OT one :(
Hope it doesn't have a huge knock on effect to tonight.
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Maybe all those huge increases were just a blip and he needs a bit less now? Maybe pull back a little tomorrow and see where it gets you -- like you said, at least UT is at least happy.
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Thanks Erin - I think holding back helped to day.
S 18.45
NW 2.00 Settled himself
WU and E 7.00 :)
A
E 9.15 Cranky/Rooting (Think there’s got to be a GS going on – Glad it hasn’t affected the nights as yet. Glad to feed as much as needed during day!!!)
S 9.25 – 11.05 (Put down at 9.20 stirred at 40 minutes for a little while - maybe more A tomorrow?)
A
E 12.00
A
S 12.45 – 15.30 (Put down at 12.30 Cranky mantra, Getting close to ‘I need you’ stage - maybe less A tomorrow? Woke at 15.30 to try and fit in CN)
E 15.30
A
S 18.00 – 18.35 (Put down at 17.30. Was trying to get him down for a CN before his full A but was hard for him to get to sleep. Not sure if I should have kept him up longer. ??? Think it’s going to b tricky to get the CN in soon with our A times. Do you think it would work to have both of the full naps a bit longer if possible – maybe 2 – 2 ½ hours each and then an EBT?)
A
E 19.00
S 19.40
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EBT could work, as long as its not super early! My kids were always awful cat nappers so I did ebt out of necessity quite frequently when they were small. First A time, it's so long already, you're prob just fine tuning, maybe 5 more minutes at a time? That second nap is amazingly long (which is probably why he was so resistant to the cat nap)! I do see what you mean, if you get naps like that consistently, your day is going to get crazy long if you don't cut out the CN.
I'd say of you get a first nap longer than 2 hours that you keep the A time the same, otherwise a touch less. If he likes long naps, he probably needed to take a longer one to need the full A time, if that makes sense?
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Thanks Erin,
Good point. The first A of the day has always been 10 minutes less than our full A, so I'm still adding 10 minutes on to that A for the next A if after a good nap. As he's having much better sleep at night now though he can probably do a full A before the first nap so I'll now treat that first A time as full for the rest of the day.
I seem to have a a problem with my DF now though and could do with some advice. All the day feeds have got much better now that the night feeds, other than the DF, have stopped (at the moment!!!) The one in particular that has got much longer though is the DF which was fine for a while but last night's was an hour and a quarter! It used to be about 15 minutes. He'd feed on one side then pull off when finished. I think it was the first night he STTN he happened to keep feeding on side to the point where he seemed to get frustrated as though that breast became empty. He was pulling at my nipple, going on and off until I offered him the other side which he took and after about another 5-10 minutes pulled off contented.
Now this two sided feed is what he wants which is fine (especially as it keeping him STTN). This is what I do for the day feeds too but for the DF the length on the second breast is increasing every day. Last night he must have done something like 30 minutes one side, then twenty the other (then frustrated). then 10 the other, then 5 the other then 10 before he pulled off satisfied. I was in so much pain by then. My nipples hurt so much I was having to bite my lip to distract myself from crying and moving around. i suffer from arthritis which has been in remission for ages but I was finding having to sit still and quietly for so long I was getting pains in my legs which I would normally need to stretch out, but every time I moved he would guzzle extra hard .
I tried to get him off my nipple numerous times when he'd calm down but to no avail. He was never really getting to that fluttery comfort sucking stage though. He was really eating properly for that long. ::) I was in so much discomfort I was contemplating just pulling him off and facing the music if I was going to then have to sh/pat him off to sleep, but he was still asleep and I kept thinking surely he'll stop soon.
Maybe it was a bit of a GS thing but I really couldn't do another feed like that. My nipples hurt so much.
Any ideas?
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Sorry one more post before bed. Could you please also check the other one I made today :) Our day was as follows.
Still haven't cracked our A -
S 19.40
DF 10.00
WU and E 7.15 :)
A
S 9.47 – 10.30 (Put down at 9.40) Aaaagh – more A!! added 5 minutes on to yesterdays. Another 5 minutes/10 minutes?
E 10.30
A
S 12.59 – 15.00 (Put down at 12.56) This was similar to first A so maybe first A should be 10 minutes more?
E 15.00
A
S 16.40 – 17.20 Napped in buggy while we were out
E 18.00 Big feed
S 18.50
Also further to our discussion about nap lengths and struggling to fit in the CN with full naps, do you think it might affect night sleep if I do let him sleep longer than 2 hours during his 2 full naps if he's still sleeping at that mark. I've got it in my head to never let him sleep more than 2 hours. What do you think?
Thanks again Erin for all your help. x
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If you can fit your feeds in ok with letting him go more than 2 hours, I probably would. 10 minutes more A shoud work, though maybe 5 minutes at a time, his A times are so high already. He mght pull back on them when he starts getting mobile too, just a thought.
With the DF -- a couple things -- you could try some breast compressions to increase the flow towards the end of the feed (there's a link in the bf FAQ if you need it). You could also try pumping after the feed to increase supply. I'd also look to make sure you're eating/drinking enough in the latter part of the day as that can also mess with your supply. Can you get him to settle if you do one side and then the other? Even if you have to rock or pat a little?
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Hi Erin,
Thanks so much for the great tips re DF. Luckily last night he was on one side for half an hour then seemed to be slowing down so I took him off and he was satisfied. I will definitely keep in mind your suggestions though. Compressions could well help and I must drink more water! Wish I could top him up with EBM but he isn’t taking the bottle. Long frustrating story but plan to go cold turkey in a few weeks once he’s properly settled in his room and with STTN etc. Last night was the first night out of his Moses basket and in to his cot and it went well!!!
S 18.50
DF 10.00
WU 6.48
E 7.00
A
S 9.30 – 11.50 (Put him down at 9.22 – additional 10 mins from yesterday. Woke after 30 minutes. Put himself back to sleep very calmly in 10 minutes. Isn’t 30 min nap normally OT but he was very calm. Maybe just getting used to cot? Not sure what to do about A tomorrow ???)
E 11.50
A
E 14.00 Did a top up E because of the time between our E’s
S 14.30 – 16.10(Put down at 14.25 so same as first A. Also woke up at 40 mins very calmly for 10 mins. To keep himself asleep/get himself back to sleep at these points he sometimes flicks his head from side to side, which he did over and over again at both wake ups. Now he’s in his cot it probably feels quite different to ‘head-flicking’ in the moses basket or buggy because they would jiggle a little with the movement, unlike the cot. Could be an issue although the head flicking generally happens when he’s struggling to get through the light sleep. Tends to be if I’ve got the right A he hardly stirs. Could normally go at least 2 hours too.)
E 16.10 (Enormous feed for about 40 minutes with eyes closed – very unusual. Made me feel better about needing so much A time before bed. This was very relaxed/half asleep A. He’s also getting a bit of a cold – not sure how this might be affecting things.)
A
E 18.20 (Big feed considering such a big one at 16.10. 18.20 later than I would ideally give it. Caught up with family stuff)
S 18.55
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The 30 minute nap thing is usually OT -- I will say with mine that I always had to look at how they woke -- if they woke calmly like that, they were definitely UT, if they were cranky and crying, definitely OT -- the nap length didn't actually matter as much as how he woke. It could just be him getting used to the me surroundings though. Give it a few days at that A time I would think and see how you do.
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OK thanks Erin. Will stick st this A and see how we get on.
Had a bit of an issue with our NW last night that I could do with some advice on please-
S 18.55
DF 10.15 (Normal length – about 20 mins)
NW 3.00 Cry escalated so DH went to settle him. DS’s nose was very blocked so DH asked for help to use the ‘nose sucker’ to clear his nose. Because the sucker has got a nozzle, every time we put it near his nose he would start rooting. Don’t know if hunger was part of the reason he woke up but it felt to cruel to ‘get his appetite going’ because of the sucker and to not feed him so I did feed him. (Pity he doesn't root when a bottle comes near him - maybe we need to stick it up his nose ;)) He didn’t have a huge feed but settled well after it.
Of course my concern is that we don’t want to start up with the night feeds again so don’t know what to do if we feel we need to use the sucker tonight. Should I just try and get DH to settle him after because we know he can get through the night without feeds. What if it is the GS??? What if he seems really hard to settle would/should I give in and feed him in case it's the GS. Worried that would definitely creat a night feed habit again. May have even just been getting used to his surroundings had moved himself so he was sleeping across ways in the cot. Really don’t know what to do. ???
WU 6.45
E 6.55
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Before I start, apologies for such a long post on top of my previous post today (was just hoping for some advice before I go to bed for the previous one).
Really appreciate your help and I hope this isn’t too much of a read. Not the easiest day today.
WU 6.45 (that’s when I heard him. Could have woken earlier)
E 6.55
A
S 9.28 – 11.10 (put down at 9.20)
E 11.10
S 13.55 – 14.25 (put down at 13.45) woke calmly. Didn’t even attempt to flick head from side to side/stay asleep. Looked completely UT to me. Not sure should stick at this A. Still think he needs more ???
E 14.25
A
E 16.30 Thought I’d drop in another just in case we are in GS. May help tonight.
So hard to settle though. Put in to bed at 16.50. Cried so much. Shushed him for about 25 minutes to no avail. Firework noises outside because bonfire night in UK. Worried that
a] they were disturbing him
b] because I gave him a bit of a feed it had made him want a full feed
c] because of the clock change it’s now dark when I put him down for the CN so maybe he thinks he’s going to bed for the night so wants a full feed
d] if I didn’t get him off to sleep soon he wouldn’t get the CN in before bed.
All in all, I ended up feeding him again for about ten minutes until he fell asleep, then work up once in cot and finally fell asleep after another ten minutes shushing. Not great and could only shush him because DS1 at Grandma’s today. Would be a nightmare normally because I’d need to be feeding/bathing DS1 at this time :(
S 17.50 – 18.30
A
E 18.55
S 19.30
Feeling quite stressed. Have had pretty much two weeks to try and sort his naps up between DS1 being ill and DS1 being on school holiday but he’s back on Monday. I still haven’t cracked it and I’m now going to have to jiggle around the school runs again.
On the plus side we’re at the stage where his first nap will be after the school drop off, and of course our nights have been so much better :) but it’s the other end of the day that’s a nightmare :(. The only way I can get two good naps and avoid having to get him down for a CN so late is to be able to push the afternoon nap to 3.30 – 5.00/5.30. To do that I need to be getting a really good nap for the first nap and need LO to be waking a little later as standard. Still think maybe I need to be extending that first A ???
Something like –
WU and E 7.00
…probably have to have another E in here before S??
S 9.50/10.00 – 12.30
E 12.30
A
S 15.30 – 17.00/17.30 (15.30 is the very earliest I would be able to get him in to bed after pick-up so tricky)
E
A
E
S 19.00
What do you think? If it doesn’t work though I’ll tend to get a silly little nap before pick-up and then problems with the CN after. Feeling a bit freaked out.
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Ok, if he's sick don't worry about the night feed -- it will probably go away on its own especially one at that point in the night. I would think some of your general unsettledness is due to him being sick -- I tend to blame that first as its usually the cause.
I'd say definitely feed before the first nap if you need to push your A time further -- and if it seems like he does then I'd say do it -- it's been working great so far so I'd stick with pushing it. If you can get him to 3:30'formthat second nap, that would be great -- I also think it will be the case where it might be challenging at first to get him there, but he'll get used to it in time. I'm also wondering if you're going to get a 12 hour night after him only waking up at 5/5:30 it bt is at 7, you know? Might have to do bt closer to 8.
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Just a quick positive update. No NW's last night ;D and although a 6.15 EW we managed to get a pretty good two nap day. Cracked the first A (for today at least ;)) adding 10 mins and got a fab 2 1/2 hour sleep. Still need more A before the 2nd nap which is good if I have to try and push it to 3.30.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow with our first day back at school for DS1. Thanks again so much for your help Erin. You're such a star :-*
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Yay! Good luck!
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Went from definitely heading in the right direction yesterday to the least amount of day sleep he’s ever had today :( Not sure how it went so wrong. Completely lost what A time I should be aiming for and whether he was UT or OT? Definitely OT by the end. Here’s our day. -
S 18.45
DF 10.00 Had about twenty mins on one side then pulled off settled. As he’s been ‘asking’ for both sides since he’s been sleeping through I was worried that one side wouldn’t be enough to see him through. So offered him other side and he took it for about 30 mins. Kind of wish I hadn’t offered because I was very uncomfortable at the end. As he didn’t start pulling at my nipple though I felt I had to let him continue. Did you always offer both sides for DF? Maybe I should try with just one side on the weekend or do you think it’s risky and I should do both sides until it’s time to wean him off it at a later date?
NW 2.00 Self settled
NW 5.30 Self settled but took half an hour. He got only about half hour more sleep.
WU and E 6.26
A Nearly asleep in buggy on way back from school
E 9.05
S 9.25 – 9.55 (Put down at 9.16. 3 mins later than the perfect A yesterday. Woke calm but started getting cranky in 10 minutes or so. Left not knowing if UT or OT. Maybe OT as couldn’t do a full A because of 5.30 NW and then only half hour’s sleep? Calm waking makes me think UT but unexpected with the start to the morning and the ever so slightly increased A. )
E 10.15
A Had to go out with buggy at about 10.35. He started falling asleep pretty much straight away. ( Do you think that tends to indicate OT or UT at previous nap?) Maybe dozed for 5 mins in buggy before realising and picked him up. Started dozing on the way back so carried home.
E 12.20 – falling asleep, tried to keep awake
S 13.15 – 13.55 (put to bed at 12.35 –wriggled around cot in Woombie for ages then cranky right at end for a minute. Little dozes affecting settling? He woke up calmly and then cranky after five mins until fed. Don’t know if OT/UT/just hungry? Calm afterwards although did have sitting on my lap all the time – wasn’t taking any chances!)
E 14.00
A
E 16.00 Was falling asleep
S 16.45 – 17.20 (Put to bed 16.20. Went to sleep calmly surprisingly)
A
E 18.00 Exhausted. Fell asleep while eating.
S 18.45
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Sorry meant to add he's still got a bit of a sniffly nose but seems absolutely fine in himself. Certainly hasn't had a temperature or anything. Just a minor sniffly nose for a few days.
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Little dozes affecting settling?
My money's on this ^^^^^^^ right now (though I could be totally wrong). I've done the same thing -- had mine nearly asleep in the car and go to put them in their beds and they're wide awake. Not sure why -- I guess the nearly dozing is somewhat restful and keeps it from being a full A time, which is why you got the UT nap? (And yes, putting all those shorter naps together would prob make him OT by the end of the day.)
I always double sided for the DF, but that might be something you'd play around with and see. I know some ladies who moved to single sided when their LOs were not that interested in the WU feed. If he's still taking that one well, I'd go with both sides for now (as it will certainly leave you second guessing whether or not he's hungry when he wakes in the night).
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Thanks for advice re DF - definitely stick to two sided. You're right. It makes you more confident that if there is an NW it isn't for food - hopefully ;)
Great night last night after rubbish day. Thought the OT day would rear it's head at night but he didn't wake until 7.20 ;D
Another rubbish day today though and we didn't have any dozing in the buggy. We literally ended up with 1 x 40 min and 1 x 30 min nap all day :(
Got another UT nap first adding 5 mins to yesterday's A.
Within next A did an E at the start and one 1/2 hour before he was due to sleep. However he kept falling asleep during the second A which threw the A time and ended up with another UT nap. Think this may often be a problem trying to get two E's in my A. Any suggestions?
My problem then was trying to work out the A before last nap. I remember Sara suggesting that A-15min was a good starting point after an OT nap so I thought that maybe I should go for something similar because even though both naps were UT, by the end of the day he would be OT. As the first A of the day didn't work, I figured that maybe the 'correct A' would have been adding another 5 mins, so did that then subtracted the 15 mins....
anyway LO screamed his precious head off. Tried to shush him but very difficult as DS1 causing issues ::). Gave up and tried to feed him to sleep. Again issues with DS1 and by then I thought I'd actually give up trying for the CN and go for a bath/then EBT.
Do you think I was way off with my estimated A before the CN? He was definitely crazy OT. Really didn't know what to aim for and sooo difficult that time of the evening with DS1.
Finding it generally difficult to gauge A's before CN's. As we're only trying to get a short nap is always best to err on the side of caution and tend towards less A and hope he doesn't take too long to settle. Better than risking OT?
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Finding it generally difficult to gauge A's before CN's. As we're only trying to get a short nap is always best to err on the side of caution and tend towards less A and hope he doesn't take too long to settle. Better than risking OT?
I agree with all of this. I always had a really hard time with the cat nap with all of mine, so I never feel like I'm in a good position to give lots of advice there. :) I did try to go sooner rather than later though as since you don't want a long nap, it's ok for an UT one.
I wonder if you've got some OS going on with him being out and about dropping off ds1 -- was today a day where you were doing that? I think in some cases you need to just give him some time to adjust to what you're doing every day now, if that makes sense.
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Not a great night but a much better day :)
S 18.40
DF 10.00
NW 4.50 LO very upset. DH shushed him back to sleep – took 45 mins (but at least he didn't need feeding)
WU and E 6.46
E 9.25 managed to keep awake and did longer gentle wind down in case was OS from school drop off (good thought thanks)
S 9.51 – 12.51(put down at 9.46) Can’t believe he’s on 3h 05 A. He’ll be on one nap by 6 months at this rate ;) I woke him after 3 hours thinking surely if he had a longer nap than that it would throw him. Crazy.
E 13.00 Great feed although kept falling asleep – can’t believe that after 3 hour nap!
A
S 16.00 – 16.40 Worked out so well as the nap fitted in after school and only needed a catnap (and not too late) to make it to an ok BT. Hope such a day gives us a good night because it definitely made a good day.
E 16.40
A
S 18.40
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Wow, crazy long nap!! Will be interested to see how the night goes!
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...oh well we ended up with an EW. Not sure if it was the 3 hour nap or the fact that it was too long an A after the CN and he ended up OT (remember Sara suggesting to keep it much shorter. What's the earliest BT you would try if you were aiming for about a 7am WU?) or because he woke up chilly...
EW and E 5.50 (Started mantra then upset. Went to check on him and he was wet through and probably cold as heating set to come on later. Got him up. Difficult time as would be due to go down for S during school drop off. )
A
E 7.45
A (Carried him during school run so he didn’t drop off.)
S 9.15 - 11.05 (crying after school run and 10 mins shushing to get down as OT)
E 11.05
A
S 12.10 – 12.45 (Fell asleep unexpectedly in buggy while out)
A
E 14.30
A
S 16.45 – 17.25
A
E 18.00
S 18.40 (ended up with a longer A after CN because of parent's night at DS1's school. Will see if that affects tonight. He seemed a bit OT when put down.)
..not sure if I should try again for the long nap then cat nap situation if it arose.
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What's the earliest BT you would try if you were aiming for about a 7am WU?
At his age, I would probably try as early as 6, but not an earlier than that. Depends on your LO though, some of them do some crazy long sleeps when they need it! But, seeing that he was wet and cold, that probably helped cause that EW.
not sure if I should try again for the long nap then cat nap situation if it arose.
You'd probably need to, he does have some crazy long A times, but he's still so small, I wouldn't think he could handle it without the CN.
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not sure if I should try again for the long nap then cat nap situation if it arose.
You'd probably need to, he does have some crazy long A times, but he's still so small, I wouldn't think he could handle it without the CN.
Oh gosh no I didn’t mean that I would only give him one nap – I obviously didn’t explain myself clearly. What I meant was that I didn’t know if I would do a 3 hour nap then a CN rather than 2 x 2 hour-ish naps or 1 x 2 hour and 2 x 40m. I suppose that I probably couldn’t always rely on a 3 hour nap anyway and I do want to be able to settle in to an actual achievable routine for a while rather than it being different every day. Although if I could try it again it would be good to know whether the 3 hour threw him or if as you say it was just because he was wet and cold which it well could have been.
Here was today… much better night…
WU 6.46
E 7.00
A
E 8.20
A
S 9.50 – 10.50 (put down at 9.46 – woke up cranky/OT. Not sure why. Had a longer A before nap yesterday.)
E 10.50
S 11.30-12.30 (Had to go out and LO dozed on and off in buggy)
A
E 13.45
A
S 14.30 – 16.30 (Put down LO in buggy to allow for a 40 min nap before school pick-up and a CN later, however LO slept through pick-up and getting home and had to be woken at 16.30! Do you think that means that if he doesn’t have a full nap he needs more like 2 hours A than his normal 3? Seems like such a difference.)
E 16.45
A
E 18.40
S 19.25
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OK, gotcha. I thought you still meant 2 naps + a CN actually, I didn't think you were trying to push him to one nap just yet. ;)
Do you think that means that if he doesn’t have a full nap he needs more like 2 hours A than his normal 3? Seems like such a difference.
Despite his usual crazy A times, he's still pretty little so it just might make that much of a difference! Looks like your day has gone decently, I hope your night is good too.
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Sadly after our pretty good day yesterday we still had an NW/EW. Not sure why…
S 19.25
DF 10.00
NW/EW 5.30 - DH Shushed to sleep in ½ hour. Was mantra to begin with then definitely needed 1/2 hour of help. Whilst DH was shushing him I got the fear that LO was hungry but after he settled he slept well til…
WU 7.30 and had to be woken up and to check he definitely wasn’t hungry at 5.30 I didn’t feed him til about 8.15 and he didn’t ‘ask’ for food at all. Relieved and now feeling pretty confident that he can get through the night not needing feeding except for DF. :)
E 8.15
A
E 9.50
A
S 10.40 – 12.30 (bit cranky)
E 12.30
A
S 13.50 – 14.30 Fell asleep in buggy again – strange after such a short A ???
A
E 16.00
S 16.45 – 17.30 (put him down at 16.30, had to wake him up which seems to support putting him down after just 2 hours if he has a short nap - that helps)
E 18.30
S 19.15
Fingers crossed for tonight. DH away so on my own with my two DS's. Would loooove it if they could both STTN tonight.
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Hope it goes well! Does he always fall asleep with motion? It took my ds forever to not pass out in the car, no matter how short the A time!
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Hi, yes motion does help send him to sleep but only if he's quite tired. Would normally take him about the same time to get to sleep in the buggy as it would in bed if I put him down at a full A, but at the moment he quite literally closes his eyes to sleep almost the moment I start pushing the buggy even if way off full A. Definitely not normal.
Night time was pretty good and day was excellent :) - although being a Sunday I didn't have the school runs to work around ::) -
S 19.15
DF 10.15
NW 4.30 for about 25 mins. Very calm/happy at least and got himself back to sleep gently but doesn’t this indicate UT – could he really be UT from yesterday?
NW 6.15 Settled himself easily in 5 mins
WU and E 7.00 woke him up to try and start every day at 7 - really would like an actual routine that we can stick to most days hopefully.
A
E 8.30 Started falling asleep. Desperately tried to keep him awake. Very tricky trying to get two E’s in to our long A. Even just one in the middle (if he could last to it) might result in LO dozing and messing up the A time. Any ideas?
A
S 10.10 – 12. 05 Put him down 5 mins later because of mini doze – luckily worked but would rather avoid dozes at E's if poss. Woke up crying though so think actually needed more S. Might have been DS1 noise that woke him up.
E 12.05
A
E 13.45 Eyes closed/dozing?
A
S 15.20 – 16.55 (Woke him. Not sure how close to BT I wanted him to go – see how our night is)
E 16.55
A
E 18.40
S 19.15
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NW 4.30 for about 25 mins. Very calm/happy at least and got himself back to sleep gently but doesn’t this indicate UT – could he really be UT from yesterday?
Honestly, if it doesn't happen every night, I really wouldn't worry about it. Could just be that he heard something or shifted into light sleep for a moment and woke up a little. If he's getting back to sleep, don't worry about it.
E 8.30 Started falling asleep. Desperately tried to keep him awake. Very tricky trying to get two E’s in to our long A. Even just one in the middle (if he could last to it) might result in LO dozing and messing up the A time. Any ideas?
Ugh, that's a tricky one. Other than trying to talk to him, keep his attention, taking him off if he falls asleep, I don't think I have any great ideas there.
Odd day, seems like he needed more sleep than usual! Something developmental, perhaps? Hope your night is good!
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Good night - no NW’s at all. :)
S 19.15
DF 10.00
WU 6.37
E 6.45
A
E 8.15 OK because DS1 was around keeping him awake!
A
S 9.43 -10.18 (put him down at 9.37) Hoping we don’t need another A increase – hopefully a blip. Maybe stick with same A tomorrow??)
E 10.30 -11.30 (Both of us half asleep!!!! Not quite to plan but lovely)
A (Wasn’t sure what A to go with after that so decided to go for a walk so could at least get a 40m nap in buggy so I knew to do a 2 hour A after that. As it was LO fell asleep in buggy and stayed asleep when I went back home. Good stuff!)
S 12.40 – 14.40 (Had to wake him up so possibly developmental wanting so much sleep)
E 14.40
A
S
S 16.50 – 17.30 (A little tricky to get down but not too bad)
E 17.30
A
E 18.40
S 19.50 (Took a while for him to go to sleep)
... fingers crossed we'll actually be able to sort out a routine soon
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I'd definitely stick with same A tomorrow, he's already so high on those A times! I think you're going to have to accept that you are going to have some variation as the days go on, but you seem to be getting a good handle on what works for him, which is really the important thing. When you've got another one to plan around, it's inevitable that things will be a bit off sometimes, but you have to look at the day as an overall picture sometimes, not all the little things that go into it, yk?
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Hi Erin,
Just a quick update my end. All going pretty well here. No NW's that have needed shushing or feeding. WU have been slightly earlier than I'd like but still after 6.00am so not all bad.
I'm just concentrating on getting that first good nap in and we'll see how we go. You're right that I need to be looking at the overall picture.
Can't believe it but think I'm going to up his A time again. Last 3 days at same A time have resulted in firstly a 1.5 hour nap and then only 40 mins the next 2 days. He's already up to an A of 3h 15m - mental. On the plus when he has a short nap I've cracked the next A time so that each time he's had a long nap after.
Just wanted to ask you one quick question.
Today was...
5.55 NW – Settled in 5 mins
WU 6.45
E 7.00
A
E 8.30
A
S 11.00 – 11.45 (put down 6.50)
A
E 12.00
A
S 13.55 -15.15 (put down 13.45)
E 15.30
A
..so currently I'm deliberating whether I should still try and get a CN in or go for an EBT. As he has such a long A he won't be properly OT if I stretch him to 6/6.30 ish which is my temptation. Will make for a much easier evening than trying to get in a CN.
What would you have done? - know you struggled with the CN too so I think I know what your answer will be. Just worried that it's a very long A for last of the day and may affect the night.
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Yup, you've probably guessed I would always do EBT over the CN. It was always so much easier for me personally. I would think with those long A times, even after a CN, BT would get pushed so far and your day would end up being way too long. Crazy long A times for that little guy, it does sound like he's due an increase again!
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Yes ended up doing an EBt and the night was fine! Much better.
Increased his A another 10 mins and he still only did 40 mins. Aaahhh this is insane! Going to a birthday party at midday tomorrow so really need to get him to have a long morning nap. Think I might have to increase again. Put him down at 3h 15 A and he fell asleep at 3h 20. Can I really add another 10 mins? Suppose I have to try and shush him off to sleep if gets OT. What do you think?
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I assume he's waking from these 40 minte naps happy, right? I guess add another 10 and see how he does, it doesn't seem to have a negative effect on him!
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Yes he was waking up happy.
So yesterday I added another 10 minutes and got a 1h 45m nap. :) He did seem quite cranky when he woke up though. Not waking up crazy OT sounding but not sounding perfectly well rested either...so I thought I'd just try adding another 5 mins on to his A today
So today we had this -
WU and E 7.00
A
E 9.00
A
S 10.35 - 12.30 (put to bed at 10.30, when he woke up he was similar to yesterday so I guessed that even though he's had nearly a 2 hour nap, for some reason it wasn't actually fully restorative. :-\ )
E 12.30
A
S 14.35 - 16.20 (put to bed at 14.30, which is the A I would use after a 40 min UT nap (more like 2 hours A rather than his full A of 3 1/2 ish), and managed a good nap again. When he woke up though he was a bit crankier than normal again)
E 16.20
A
E 18.00
S 18.25
.....
So I don't really know what this all means. Gosh each baby really is different. DS1 followed the average A times at each age almost exactly. DS2 seems to be re-writing the rule book!
I don't know how he can end up OT/UT?? after such a long nap and what to do with the A to prevent it. Clearly the first nap wasn't fully restorative otherwise a reduced A of 2h05m would have resulted in just a 40 m nap.
Any thoughts at all? Would appreciate it.
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It could just be getting used to the new A time -- generally we say to give it 3 days before giving up and adjusting more.
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Thanks for your response Erin.
I stuck to the same A time today, as suggested, and got a 1h40m first nap. He seemed happy when he woke up so I assumed I would have to go for our full A (of 3h35m!) after. Later though, something inside me thought maybe I should put him down after 2 hours, like I did yesterday after his crankier nap, so I did...and I got a long nap again. :o
So maybe for some reason this crazy long A is only the A needed before the first nap, and then the second A is more like an average A for his age. Just seems so bizarre. Anyway at least we've cracked the first A for a bit and if we need to resolve the second A I'll just have to work on it.
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If it works, don't question whether or not it's "normal". :)
Lots of LOs on here do well with a 2-3-4 hour A time (2 hours for the first, 3 hours for the second, and so on) and some do well on the reverse 4-3-2. And some do the same for each A time. The variations are ok, it could just be how he is. My LOs always did a longer A time before bed, other LOs would be hopelessly OT of the tried that. It sounds like it's coming together, fingers crossed!
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Thanks Erin,
I always thought that if anything the first A tended to be less than any after. Thanks for clarifying that's not always the case. :)
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Nope. Babies never read those books, despite our best efforts. :)
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Isn't that the truth! ;)
Have had a couple of tricky evenings and nights ending up OT at BT.
Today was
S/BT 18.15
NW 19.00 needed about half hour of shushing to sleep
EW 5.50 Was Mantra'ing for ages, eventually got him up at 6.40
E 6.40
A
E 8.20
S 9.35 - 10.15 Woke up cranky - OT
A
E 11.00
A
S 12.40 - 15.15
E 15.30
A
S 18.25
NW 19.00 OT and had to shush for an hour
As you can see today I went for an EBT rather than attempting to get a CN in there. I had done the same thing the day before as LO had again woken up at 15.15 but after a 1 and a half hour nap (and as you can see resulted in an OT NW and an EW). I thought though that perhaps because today's nap was such a long one he'd be able to last to the EBT (and also felt that if I even attempted to get a CN in there it would have been a really long day having started at 5.50) but it appears that he still ended up OT. :( Wouldn't be surprised if we get another EW.
Not sure what to do if the same thing happens tomorrow. (!5.15 being the time we leave for the school pick-up so is a common wake-up time from his nap) Feel like at least we know approximately what the first A needs to be (3h 35ish) and the 2nd (2h10ish) but struggle with the end of the day - clearly an A near 3 hours is way too much. Maybe push for a CN at a much reduced A of something like 1 h 45m - can't imagine that working though particularly if the previous nap was over 2 hours. Maybe cap nap at 2 hours so we don't end up with this situation ?
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I might try the capping at 2 hours -- seems like it would help sort the day a bit.
I'd stick with a lower A time (somewhere around 2.15 at the end of the day to see of that works, seems like he needs shorter later on in the day.
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Hi Erin,
Been getting a few EW's and have now had something else thrown in to the mix because he started rolling today so we had to let his arms out of his woombie from his second nap. Took forever to settle so a difficult OT day.
I've been sticking to the same first A now for about 6 days and seem to usually get a 1 1/2 hour nap - although once got a 30min OT nap. He often then seems to struggle making the 'normal' 2 hours to the next nap and is tricky to settle. Do you think even though 1 1/2 hour is a long nap that maybe it's not actually a 'full nap' for him (he normally wakes up happy)? Maybe add more crazy A to the first A?
Thanks so much
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I've been sticking to the same first A now for about 6 days and seem to usually get a 1 1/2 hour nap - although once got a 30min OT nap. He often then seems to struggle making the 'normal' 2 hours to the next nap and is tricky to settle. Do you think even though 1 1/2 hour is a long nap that maybe it's not actually a 'full nap' for him (he normally wakes up happy)? Maybe add more crazy A to the first A?
Just jumping in while Erin is out of town :) What is his first A time now? Is 1.5hr the max that nap is - ie. is it sometimes 1hr20, sometimes 1hr30?
Any chance overstimulation is an issue for that second A time?
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Hi Bec thanks for getting back to me.(How's Oz doing? I'm from Melbourne but live in London now - could do with some sunshine right about now!)
We have a crazy situation for a 4 month old. His first A of the day has been 3h35m - insanely high I know but this has been what he wants. His second A has been 2 hours. (huge difference!) The nap we get after the 3h 35m has not been 1h 20 at all ( i.e. 2 cycles) but either 1h 30 or 1h 40 - which sounds like a natural wake up time I suppose. It's just that it seems to me as I've been increasing his first A time (which I seem to have been doing every few days for ages :P) when we get it 'exactly right' he normally gets really good naps - always 2 hours or over, and the following A of 2 hours is not a problem.
No chance of overstimulation in the second A. Much more going on in the first A when I'm dropping DS1 at school.
I know it seems such a high first A and seems crazy to increase it again but both Erin and I have thought that with each increase and it has worked. There's got to be an end to this increasing soon for a little bit at least! I keep joking I'll be on to one nap by 6 months!
What do you think?
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Going nicely where I am, lovely and warm and sunny, soon to get very hot but the rain hasn't really kicked in yet this wet season...
I have a kid who needed crazy-long A times early on in the day too ;) I do think if the first nap is sitting at 1hr 30-40 reliably, you may have hit the sweet spot for now.
It's just that it seems to me as I've been increasing his first A time (which I seem to have been doing every few days for ages ) when we get it 'exactly right' he normally gets really good naps - always 2 hours or over, and the following A of 2 hours is not a problem.
Often this does happen when extending but I have always found that once I get to the real 'right' spot the nap is more like 1.5hr or a little more and the following A takes some getting used to but isn't too much after a little while. When you say he's finding it hard to get through the 2nd A at 2hr, could he be bored and wanting a change of scenery? Does he settle ok for his nap after 2hr? How long does he sleep? Any OT wakings requiring resettling?
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Ok I'll stick where I am for now thanks. Glad to know I'm not the only one with these crazy long A's.
He seems to get through the 2 hours ok but often needs settling when going down for nap as though OT. 2nd nap often difficult to judge as normally have him asleep in the buggy so can push out to pick up DS1 from school so tends to be disturbed by this. As it's a Sunday though we won't have that problem so I'll let you know how we get on.
Hopefully stopping the swaddling won't affect too much today. Although the day was bad with it yesterday, he did manage to STTN with his arms out for the first time last night. What a star! :)
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often needs settling when going down for nap as though OT. 2nd nap often difficult to judge as normally have him asleep in the buggy so can push out to pick up DS1 from school so tends to be disturbed by this.
Are you settling him to sleep in the buggy? If so, it could just be the different place to sleep - maybe he loves his cot and associates it with sleep? Has he a lovey or something that can help make that link?
When DS was ready, stopping swaddle was a breeze, really. I did have a few days of holding through the jolts but nothing unreasonable ;) Hope it works out the same way for Alec. Yay for the STTN!
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Thanks Bec.
He's fine settling in the buggy at home. Kind of trained him in sleeping there as well as the cot from the beginning because I knew I'd need it to do the school runs with DS1. It's only when we push out the door that he tends to get disturbed.
Haven't really used a lovey at this stage because he's always been swaddled (in the buggy too which helped). Time to try some soft toys etc, in his bed. I've got one of those mini-blankets with tags that he seems to like sucking on but I'd be a bit nervous to put it in his cot as it could probably just fit over his face. Annoying as that seems to be the thing he likes the best.
Had to put LO down 5 mins later than normal this morning (DS1 drama ::)). He took longer than normal to settle with his hands out so in fact his A time ended up nearly 4 hours. I've just been watching him on our video monitor (love that thing ;)) at the 30 minute mark and it looked like he was going to wake up - just as I was reading about your LO being held through the jolts. I thought maybe I should be doing that as his arms were flailing and there was lots of wriggling but he was very calm, no noise. He now seems to have settled himself again. Yay! Did you sit with your LO throughout his nap to 'catch the jolts' at the beginning?
Not sure what to make of the 4 hour A but we'll see how the nap goes...
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So the day ended up being...
S 19.05
DF 10.15
WU and E 6.55
A
E 9.30
A
S 10.55 – 12.21(put down at 10.35, woke up not screaming like OT but more like frustrated whine, left for about 10 mins then went in. He was scrunching his eyes shut as though trying to stay asleep/ go to sleep. I tried to hold his arms but it just upset him more so offered him soft toy to suck which he did for 2 seconds then spat it out really crying and rooting. Decided to get him up and feed him. )
E 12.35
A
S 14.30 – 15.00 (Happy when went down, Calm when woke up but it may have been his arms that woke him. Left to see if he’d settle for 15 mins. When i went in still had eyes scrunched trying to sleep. Bit frustrated.)
A
E 16.00
A
S 16.45 - 17.20
A
E 18.20
S 19.10
So not great day but not truly awful considering first full day with arms out.
Not sure what A I should stick to before first S - 3h 35 yesterday, 4h 00 today. Although both resulted in a 1h 30m nap with the longer A he looked like he was trying to stay asleep (probably just struggling with arms). Maybe something in between?
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Seriously, I go away for a few days and he jumps to 4 hours! I'd be a little scared of trying that consistently -- though I'm sure he'll creep up there soon enough. ::) I'd probably up a little bit from the 3.35 -- the jerkiness in the 4 hour A time nap could be a little bit of OT at play.
Good luck with having those arms out, what a star he is STTN anyway! :)
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LOL - Yep crazy I know!
STTN again - yippee!
Today when I woke up Alec was already awake and kicking about quietly. Had no idea when he woke up so I thought I'd stick to the lower A of 3h35m. As it was he ended up taking longer to go to sleep than normal so the A was at least 3h45/50, probably more, and we ended up getting a 2 hour nap with a little wake up and self-settle at 40 mins.
Think I'll put him down at 3h40 tomorrow and see how we go.
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Let us know. :)
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I thought maybe I should be doing that as his arms were flailing and there was lots of wriggling but he was very calm, no noise. He now seems to have settled himself again. Yay! Did you sit with your LO throughout his nap to 'catch the jolts' at the beginning?
I didn't - there was always noise and we were in a TINY house, so I knew when he started moving and went in then. If he's settling himself fine, that's awesome :)
The jerkiness we had was a combination of insufficient physical activity and OT if it was present.
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So my young chap with his crazy first A is still foxing me.
Yesterday we managed to get a fantastic nap of about 2 1/2 hours. I put him down at 3h 45 (aiming for a 3h50 A). However he took ages to go to sleep and in fact ended up with a 4h25m A :o ... and yes then a great nap. The problem was then that his normal second A of 2 h10m fell just at the time of school pick up so I had to push him another 20 mins. Well it was melt down/OT disaster. Couldn't get him to settle so had to go for EBT, but to get to 6.00 pm BT he had an A of about 4 1/2 hours. Not great.
Not sure if I shouldn't have risked going past the 2 hour nap. I would then have got a 40 min nap in before pick-up and hopefully one after.
However if he had managed to last nearly 3 hours for his nap (which he has done previously) he would have had one great nap and would just need the CN post pick-up. Not sure.
Today he had an EW and I didn't hear him wake up so was unsure what his A was. I decided to put him down at 3h 45 again knowing that it was actually more than that. He fell asleep at 3h55 (plus!) and we ended up with only a 1h 20 nap. Then after his normal second A of 2h 10 he only got a 40m nap. Boo.
So I think i'm going to have to increase his first A again - by 10 minutes?...and maybe his second A by 10 as well. What do you think?
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I wonder if with that long first A, he can't quite cope with as long for the next one... Hindsight's 20/20 :P I reckon your idea of capping at 2hr and fitting in that 40min nap before pickup would be the go.
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Yes you're right that he can't handle an A that long after his first nap. It took a bit of working out (with Erin's help :)) ) but his first A was up to 3h 55 (plus because of the EW) and aiming for about 2h 10 for the second A - rather a huge difference!
So today we had an EW which I didn't hear again but when I checked at 6.15 he was awake -
WU and E 6.15 ish ?
A
E 9.10
S 10.15 - 12.15 capped, (so annoyingly I don't know what his exact A was but it was 4h 00 plus ? )
E 12.15
A
S 14.30 - 15.10 (school run 15.10 - 15.30)
A
E 15.30
A
S 16.40 - tried to get a CN here. Screaming/crying - couldn't settle. Tried to shush for a while but had a guest so had to give in and get him up. Wanted to get him down for an EBT but tricky with guest. Ended up this -
A
E 18.15
S 18.40 :P
Now I feel we're in a bit of a mess with our routine. When things are working well he tends to start the day somewhere between 6.30 and 7.00 and at least I know exactly what A we're working with. I think I'll set the alarm for 6.00 tomorrow and see if I can at least catch when he's waking. If I can get our routine tweaked and get him waking at 7.00 at least I could be aiming for something like this-
WU 7
S 11/11.30 - 13/13.30
School pick up 15.10 - 15.30
S 15.30 for about an hour?
S 19.00
Our problem is working around the school pick up. Either I get in an extra 40 m nap pre pick-up but that means we have to get a CN quite late which never seems to work but the EBT option putting him down at 6.00 would mean that he has an A of 2h50 which is too much for him at that time.
He only seems to be able to do a post pick-up nap if it's quite early - no later than 4.00 but difficult to get there from one nap in the morning.
At least I won't have to work around my pick-up for the next two days..aaaahh the weekend...but I really don't know what to aim for next week. I so want him to get back to waking up at 7.00.
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S 16.40 - tried to get a CN here. Screaming/crying - couldn't settle.
OT? Thinking he shouldn't be doing 1.5hr on a 40min nap (did you cap it?) Its odd with such a long A time first up, I have to keep reminding myself of his age ;) I wonder if you just set that PM catnap at 4 and see if you can get him used to school run, snack with big bro, nap...
WU 7
S 11/11.30 - 13/13.30
School pick up 15.10 - 15.30
S 15.30 for about an hour?
S 19.00
I'd try 1.5hr nap at 15:30 for a 2hr A to BT personally. I always had a really short A to BT with the long first A.
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I have to keep reminding myself of his age ;)
I know what you mean and his my baby!!
OT? Thinking he shouldn't be doing 1.5hr on a 40min nap (did you cap it?)
I think you're right. I thought that 1.5 hour was a much reduced A, as I normally do 2h 10 after a 40min nap if the first nap ends up 40 min, but yes it looks like I should have even less A if it's the second nap that's 40 min. I didn't cap it but he woke up when I pushed the buggy out to school. So a 30-40min nap ending at about 3.15 when we go to school is quite common.
I wonder if you just set that PM catnap at 4 and see if you can get him used to school run, snack with big bro, nap...
If the nap finished at 3.15, might be a bit crazy to put him down at 4 but maybe worth a shot - he def won't be OT at that point! ...and he can't make it to 6.00 without a CN.
I'd try 1.5hr nap at 15:30 for a 2hr A to BT personally. I always had a really short A to BT with the long first A.
I've been finding the A to BT difficult to gauge but I think you're right a short A is the way forward where possible.
Can I ask advice on today please. This is what we had (dropping the E's and A's during the day)
S 18.40
DF 10.00
NW 2.00 frustrated whine for 15 mins but definitely mantra not 'I need you'. Self-settled.
WU 7.00 (woke him up)
S 10.55 - 12.25 (woke up crying though)
S 14.30 - 16.40 (woke him up. worried any longer would affect night sleep?)
BT ?? Left wondering whether better to have BT at 7 to keep a 7 - 7 day which is my ideal or to aim for 6.30 in case gets OT (or should I have left him to sleep for longer?). As I finally got him to sleep to 7 am again, don't want to end up with EW's again.
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WU 7.00 (woke him up)
S 10.55 - 12.25 (woke up crying though)
I'd dial this A back a touch (5-10min or so) if you wake him in the morning - its just not the same as waking up himself, yk? Still a reasonable nap but maybe a little OT?
Good second nap :) Best to wake at that point or you could end up robbing night sleep. I'd be prepared to do BT at 6:30/6:45 just to be on the safe side, TBH but he may make it to 7 ok given he's had a good solid 2hr nap. I don't think you can fit another CN in there to make BT later without making it too late and lengthening the day too far.
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Thank you.
Makes sense to roll back the A a bit if we wake him up in the morning. Good point.
Yesterday we ended up having this post-afternoon nap -
S 14.30 - 16.40
BT 19.00 (Had guest arrive who hadn't met LO yet so BT a little later. LO seemed ok getting to 19.00 but we did end up with a 6.25 EW. Do you think that could be because he was a little OT and we should have put him to be 18.30/18.45?
TBH I don't really mind an EW like that. It's just that I don't hear him when he wakes up so I'm currently setting the alarm at 6.00 am so I can be awake and catch his WU time - seems a little crazy. If he was consisently waking at 7 ish I wouldn't have to bother. DH thinks I'm insane waking up early so I can know when LO wakes up. :P
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Sorry I also meant to mention on my previous post that after our first A today of 4 h 10 (put him down at 3h 50, went calmly to sleep in 20 minutes), he had a nap of 1h 40m and woke happy. However when we went out 30 minutes later he started falling asleep in the buggy straight away (got him out!) This only seems to happen when he needs more sleep so I think the 1h 40m wasn't a full nap. Maybe UT when went to sleep? Really not sure. Might need to look at upping the A again?
Falling asleep in the buggy does seems to happen a lot after he has a nap under 2 hours. This makes getting out of the house after his nap difficult/less appealing with his second A getting messed up.
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So sorry ... 3rd post - update because we have had a bad NW at 21.00. DH is currently trying to shush him. Been going for 1/2 hour. Definitely has got worse since he went in there. :( Were debating whether cry bad enough to go in. Maybe made the wrong decision. ???) Does this look like an OT day to you?
BT 19.00
DF 10.00
WU 6.26
S 10.35 - 12.15
S 14.15 - 16.25
S 19.00 (was in bed 18.35 but took a while to settle. Rolled on to tummy and back again. Only just started rolling.
NW 21.00
Now been trying to settle 3/4 hour. Not great.
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Only just started rolling.
^^^^that could be part of it too. Developmental stuff messes with sleep.
As for your day, with the 1.40 nap being a shorter one for him, I almost wonder if you needed to cut that second A time even more??? Though that doesn't seem right to me with that big long nap that you got. My guess would be that the third A time would be the culprit. I'm feeling with him that while his first A time is totally off the charts high for his age, his other two need to be right there with another baby his age??? Could also be that the rolling kept him from falling asleep when he should have and he was just very OT by the time he finally did fall asleep. I'm not sure about the EW the other night, but I'd say that your NW (that I hope settled soon after you posted) was OT.
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Hi Erin,
I think you're right about the rolling. He seems to be trying to discover if he's a tummy sleeper which is taking time.
This was our day today -
WU - 6.50
S - 10.50 - 12.30 (Slept on tummy)
S - 2.25 - 3.05 (He woke up at this point. Was in his buggy and I was upstairs so didn't hear him straight away. He was a bit upset when I heard him. Not sure if he woke OT, or UT then got frustrated being left in buggy :-\ )
S 4.45 - 5.30 (Followed Bec's suggestion of putting LO to bed at 4.00 for CN as always struggles after this. He ended up taking 45 mins to settle as getting used to being on tummy, but managed to do so calmly) Think I will stick to 4.00 as latest time for CN.
BT 7.15 (Took 15 mins to settle - calm. Thinking I'll try to keep last A to between 1 1/2 - 2 hours following your comment. What do you think?)
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Just had a tiny NW at 20.50. Literally went back to sleep in 30 seconds but assume we're still dealing with OT?
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Literally went back to sleep in 30 seconds but assume we're still dealing with OT?
I'd say probably yes with your day being a little bit all over the place. You also have to think that his A times might come back a little bit if he's moving more too. Or maybe not at all, he's certainly a unique little guy in the sleep needs department.
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he's certainly a unique little guy in the sleep needs department.
...yep he sure is! I'm feeling guilty taking up so much of your time but he really is pretty tricky to get a handle on. I appreciate your help so much :)
I think we'll just have to get through the next few days with his new 'rolling game'. Definitely developmental stuff going on so a bit all over the shop.
Took 1/2 hour to settle when put down for 1st nap today making the A 4 1/2 hours ::). (We'll see how that goes) Think he's getting used to becoming a tummy sleeper - not distressed though luckily!
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I think we'll just have to get through the next few days with his new 'rolling game'. Definitely developmental stuff going on so a bit all over the shop.
This is the truth!
You're doing fabulously well, you know -- I feel like we just chat through things a little -- with his needs being so unique it's like you need to talk things through a little.
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Well I appreciate the chatting thanks Erin.
I was just reading on another post about set naps and that they really only work for a textbook/angel baby which Alec is. I was wondering whether, post this rolling-excitement, it's something that might work for us? I was trying to find more info on the forum but without the search button working I'm not sure where to look.
I'm not sure with Alec's ever-increasing first A whether this would work but certainly as we have set school runs to work around, it would be great if it would work.
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Set naps do work really well for some kids. I think Weissbluth (who is another sleep guy -- he's done some interesting research about sleep cycles, etc but is also pro-CIO, just so you know if you go looking) is a big proponent of them. The idea basically being that you put them down for a nap at the same exact time every day -- their bodies get used to sleeping at that time and they will be able to sleep at that time even if the A time is a little bit off. Might work well for you (especially with school runs), some babies do better with it than others (but if you think about it, most toddlers are more set nap kids than A time kids -- I can still tell you that dd1 went down for her nap every day at 1 PM). :)
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Yes I hadn't really though about the fact that once bubbas are on 1 nap it tends to be at a set time. DS1 went down at 1pm every day too. I suppose I just thought that it was because they are on one nap for so long that it's fine to have a set time before they lose it completely.
I suppose though that as Alec would be on two naps, in theory if we set them he should be like that until about one year old (although his first A is now about 4h20/25 :o, which is dangerously close to 1 nap territory - at least he can't keep that A time up after. Completely bonkers. ::) )
I still think I should wait a while for the rolling to settle down, and also this weekend we are going to go cold turkey to get him on the bottle which will completely throw things (Not looking forward to it but we have been trying so many gentler ways with no luck. Had to do the same with DS1 when he was little too. Feel mean but at least Tracy did advocate this route which definitely makes me feel better...and it did work with DS1 :-\)
...anyway after all that maybe I should look at setting his naps something like this -
WU b/n 6.15 and 7.00 (would always wake up by 7)
Nap 1 11.15/11.30
Nap 2 15.30 (after school run)
BT 19.00
Quite scary though as worst case scenario as the first A time could potentially be 5 h 15m or 5h 30! He just seems to be able to handle so much then that I'd really have to push that out as much as poss to protect that second A because that is definitely when he gets OT and is a lot more sensitive.
Yesterday I put him down at 2h10 rather than the normal 2h for his second nap and it was a complete OT meltdown - ended up feeding him to sleep because shushing just not possible when DS1 just in from school.
Can normally get a 2 hour first nap - worst case 1h 40, can sometimes do 2h 30 or 3h. Not sure whether to cap it to ensure 2h second A as this would help trying to get a longer nap for the 15.30. Would need that otherwise would need to do an EBT. I think he can only manage about a 1h 30m A before BT. Yesterday he had 2h before BT and we had a NW at 9.45 - nearly DF time so fed him anyway. Also had a 6.15 EW. Although with lots of rolling, who knows?
Anyway what do you think about the set naps times? Bit scary but might just work for him.
By the way looked up Yes I hadn't really though about the fact that once bubbas are on 1 nap it tends to be at a set time. DS1 went down at 1pm every day too. I suppose I just thought that it was because they are on one nap for so long that it's fine to have a set time before they lose it completely.
I suppose though that as Alec would be on two naps, in theory if we set them he should be like that until about one year old (although his first A is now about 4h20/25 :o, which is dangerously close to 1 nap territory - at least he can't keep that A time up after. Completely bonkers. ::) )
I still think I should wait a while for the rolling to settle down, and also this weekend we are going to go cold turkey to get him on the bottle which will completely throw things (Not looking forward to it but we have been trying so many gentler ways with no luck. Had to do the same with DS1 when he was little too. Feel mean but at least Tracy did advocate this route which definitely makes me feel better...and it did work with DS1 :-\)
...anyway after all that maybe I should look at setting his naps something like this -
WU b/n 6.15 and 7.00 (would always wake up by 7)
Nap 1 11.15/11.30
Nap 2 15.30 (after school run)
BT 19.00
Quite scary though as worst case scenario as the first A time could potentially be 5 h 15m or 5h 30! He just seems to be able to handle so much then that I'd really have to push that out as much as poss to protect that second A because that is definitely when he gets OT and is a lot more sensitive.
Yesterday I put him down at 2h10 rather than the normal 2h for his second nap and it was a complete OT meltdown - ended up feeding him to sleep because shushing just not possible when DS1 just in from school.
Can normally get a 2 hour first nap - worst case 1h 40, can sometimes do 2h 30 or 3h. Not sure whether to cap it to ensure 2h second A as this would help trying to get a longer nap for the 15.30. Would need that otherwise would need to do an EBT. I think he can only manage about a 1h 30m A before BT. Yesterday he had 2h before BT and we had a NW at 9.45 - nearly DF time so fed him anyway. Also had a 6.15 EW. Although with lots of rolling, who knows?
Anyway what do you think about the set naps times? Bit scary but might just work for him.
By the way, I looked up Weissbluth. Thanks for the warning about CIO because there sure is a lot about it. Think I might try and do a bit more research re his set nap theories. I did see he gives exact times for particular ages but I don't think my LO is really going to fit into anything 'age average'!
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Anyway what do you think about the set naps times? Bit scary but might just work for him.
Exactly.
Not sure whether to cap it to ensure 2h second A as this would help trying to get a longer nap for the 15.30.
My gut feeling on this one is to cap it at 2 hours. However, I think some trial and error will be your friend there.
Although with lots of rolling, who knows?
That's the truth! Milestones complicate everything!
I did see he gives exact times for particular ages but I don't think my LO is really going to fit into anything 'age average'!
LOL! :)
I've never read much Weissbluth, but I have heard from several ladies that he does have some similar theories and has done a lot of research -- so it's good if you want to know the theories behind why babies wake, etc. It's just his methods that I don't particularly agree with. :)
I think the set naps are definitely worth a shot for him, especially with your school run to contend with.
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Thanks again Erin.
Great day today. Out all day with DS1 and my breast pump while DH got DS2 to take bottle. We'd never tried him on the first feed of the day before. I think maybe that he doesn't have any night feeds other than the DF now that he really is very hungry when he wakes up. He took the bottle within 5 minutes of being offered ;D ...and I got to have a lovely time with DS1 all day - just the two of us.
Anyway yes I think I'll try the scary set nap thing soon. Do you think I should just set my times as best I can and stick to them through thick and thin (even if he short naps/get crazy OT?) for a week - does that include BT too? So scary!!
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Yay on the bottle! That's such a good feeling! :)
Stick with the set naps regardless of the craziness. I'd bring BT forward if you need to if you're having a crazily OT day. If you run into trouble on that one, I know there's some ladies who have done it, so I'd start a Naps post for that (happy to help, but I know that others have more knowledge than I do there). :)
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Hi there,
Have now posted on the Naps board for some set nap info thanks and of course everyone is highly recommending that I don't have a first A as long as I have. Yep we know it's crazy - have referred them on to this post so they know how we got there.
...anyway meanwhile this is the fourth night in a row that we've been getting an NW between 9.15 and 9.45 (DF normally at 10). Not sure whether it is OT or something to do with the rolling but seems strange that each time it's just before the normal DF time (and we've had mainly EBT's)
Most times we've tried to flip him from his tummy to see if that was the problem. Generally this has escalated the problem and we've ended up feeding because it's DF time anyway. Each night he's then slept through, 3 times to EW's and one time we had to wake up at 7.00 am.
Any idea what might be going on?
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Have now posted on the Naps board for some set nap info thanks and of course everyone is highly recommending that I don't have a first A as long as I have.
LOL, should have seen that coming. :)
Generally, I'd say the 9:15/9:45 waking would be OT, but I'll also say that we've had little blips like that too that I could never quite figure out what they were coming from (so that would point to development). If we were within about a half hour of the DF time, I'd usually feed right away just so I wouldn't have to deal with settling and then getting them back up to feed.
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Yes I think I'll do just that. Fed him last night at about 9.30 and he slept through. Heard him at about 6.15 but was back to sleep quickly and had to be woken at 7.00 am so doesn't seem to be a major problem. Hopefully a blip as you say.
Wish me luck on the Naps board ensuring everyone that we're not just completely insane ;)
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Bec and I have given the naps mods some background so you should get some good advice there now. :)
They were just jumping on what seemed to be an obvious problem with your EASY. :)
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Thanks very much Erin. He's now back to 2 days of UT napping on an A of 4h40m ::)
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You've ruled out overstimulation for these short naps, yes?
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Hi Bec,
Yes both days were quiet days at home so I'm pretty sure they can't be OS. I wish he could just stop needing these A increases ::) Initial UT 40 min naps though ended up in the last two days being tricky and I just know if I can get a good nap again his day will be easier. The ladies on the Naps board feel I need to back track so his A is more age appropriate. Although I can see why they'd suggest that but I honestly can't see that working. Feeling a bit lost.
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Often seems a silly question - no TV in that A time?
Presume extra physical activity doesn't shorten the A time?
Let me have another read through this thread, I was pretty convinced the A time increases all made sense :-\ He's a little puzzle, that's for sure!
Are there opportunities for him to fall asleep that he's not taking - like do you take him out in the car during those long A times and he stays awake through it? That would lend more credence to him really needing this crazy-long first A time.
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Sometimes the TV is on but certainly not all the time. Maybe I should completely avoid it for a while to get a handle on this?
Don't think physical activity seems to make a difference. He's learnt to roll and seems to be trying to crawl so had him rolling around for at least half an hour today and after an A of 4h 50m he still woke up happy after 40m...however...I fed him then we had to drive somewhere straight away. He fell asleep in the car and stayed asleep for another 2 hours.
That has made me re-think everything a little. Maybe there have been times that he's woken up, seemingly happy, and of course I've assumed UT but maybe he has needed more sleep :-\ But then when this has happened repeatedly we've increased the A which has given a good nap again - so seemingly the A increase was right....hmmm..maybe today was just a blip.
DS1's school is only a 5 minute walk away and I tend to carry DS2 in a sling - doesn't really give him much opportunity to fall asleep anyway. Although there has been times when I've gone on after drop-off and if I keep walking for a good half hour he does look like he's going to dose so I try to keep him awake until we get home and his A is up.
Aaaahh feel like I knew my LO and now not so sure.
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Ok, I know OS looks an awful lot like UT... and any TV at all had L really OS. I will have a read through when L is asleep (was at work yesterday, so couldn't really do it then) and see what I think.
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Hi again :)
As I read through, I see a lot of rooting behaviours when a baby his age (at the time) would typically be ready for a nap. Are you sure that's not a sleep cue in his case? I know I didn't see rooting as a sleep cue til L crawled over to me and latched onto my shirt just before naptime a few days running...
When you first increased those A times you got really long naps that you were capping too - I wonder if that may have been that he was really tired from the long A's. A couple of those shorter naps thought to be UT may have been OS looking more closely (eg. ~2hr nap with a 40min nap the next day after the same A time). Also, you had a 30min nap that looked like UT, woke happy and playing - wonder if that may have been OS too.
Just some thoughts looking at it from another point of view now...
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Wow. Can OS really look like UT. I thought OS would be more like OT.
Hi again :)
Also, you had a 30min nap that looked like UT, woke happy and playing - wonder if that may have been OS too.
...interesting...will definitely start avoiding any OS situations for a while - she says after we've just been to DS1's nativity play ::) rephrase - I will try to avoid OS situations.
I can't think that there's been time that he's been rooting like you said particularly. I did start giving him an extra feed when his A starting to get so long but only because otherwise it would get way too long between his E's. He wasn't rooting for them though. Is that what you're referring to?
Hi again :)
A couple of those shorter naps thought to be UT may have been OS looking more closely (eg. ~2hr nap with a 40min nap the next day after the same A time).
So this situation could either have been that the second day was OS or that he needed an A increase? Tricky indeed!!!
OK well all in all I think it is worth trying to reduce his A just to see what happens...will give it a go tomorrow.
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I thought OS would be more like OT
Was for us, babies are somewhat different in how they show cues for things.
I'd dial back a bit, see where it gets you.
And, from personal experience, it is really hard to avoid OS with second/third kids sometimes -- honestly, I found with James that he eventually just got used to it. He's a pretty textbook baby, no? Can't remember now.
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Yes he is a text book chap so hopefully he will get used to any OS. Like you say - pretty hard to avoid!
Yep I'm definitely going to dial back a bit tomorrow just to see. Do you think I should continue posting here and stop the Naps post and maybe ask Kara (and anyone else interested) to find me over here?
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Which one do you want to keep open? We probably need to lock one so everything's just going in one spot.
These were what jumped out as rooting perhaps tired:
S 10.15 – 10.55 (Gosh I think he needs even more A!!!)
E 10.55
A
E 13.05 Was about to put him down and he really started rooting which was unusual – maybe 4 month GS
S 12.35 – 14.45 But woke up calmly at 40 mins for about 10 minutes – We need even more A. This is insane. He’s needing as much as a 6 or 7 month old
E 14.45
E 17.05 Hungry/rooting
S 17.25 – 18.05
I realise now that they were in the second A time...
For us, OS always looked (at wakeup) like UT - ready and raring to go, just wanting to play. At the start of the nap, the fighting of sleep would be more similar to OT then UT, I guess.
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Oh I see what rooting you meant now.
Re the OS, so you're saying if there was OS before a nap your LO would fight the nap like OT but would wake up looking UT - generally at the 40/45 minute mark?
I don't really mind what post we lock, but I think I should probably keep the Naps post open just because it's mainly naps that we're discussing. Any chance you and Erin could follow me over there?
Thanks Bec.
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Re the OS, so you're saying if there was OS before a nap your LO would fight the nap like OT but would wake up looking UT - generally at the 40/45 minute mark?
Yep, exactly.
I'll lock this one and we'll come put in our 2 cents worth on the naps thread :)