BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: My little Liam on November 22, 2012, 07:29:07 am
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So I guess you could say one step forward two steps back for me and my LO!
When I finally figure out his routine all is good for about a week and then something messes it up again... Ahh babies... I could scream :/
This is his routine for the last few days:
Monday night
BT 1930 after crawling and me picking him up
NW 2315-0115 unusual so I thought maybe hungry. BF but he still wouldn't go to sleep. Crawled in bed until hysterically crying. Had to rock to sleep at 0115
EW 0530 BF
Tuesday
WU 0705
A 3hr30
S 1035-1150
A 3hr30
S 1520-1625
A 3hr10
S 1935 fell asleep bf because we had guests over and I didn't have time for the crawling
NW 2315-0100 this time I didnt BF until 1245. Fell asleep with hand on chest independently.
EW 0545 BF
Wednesday
WU 0700
A 3hr35
S 1035-1235
A 3hr40
S 1615 will wake at 1700. fought nap had to BF to sleep
Planned BT 1930 crawled around tried to sit at 1945 I could tell he was so tired so I took him into my arms and stroked his forehead and he was asleep in 2 minutes. In bed by 1950
W2S 2215 (no night waking at 2315 yay!)
NW 0130 BF
EW 0440 wouldnt relax so I BF just a bit to calm him and he fell asleep
WU 0555
He was on a 3hr 30A but started to fight going down and was giving me naps of 1hr10-15 so I upped it by 5 minutes yesterday.i got a 2 hr nap but he is still fighting going down.
I have to say that he does not nap in his crib but my bed with me. That is the time I nap too so it is just easier to do it together. It has been like this from day one and he has always slept in his crib at night falling asleep independently for naps and nighttime. The only change there has been is his mobility.i always put a hand on his chest to help him fall asleep. When I am in bed next to him that is not a problem and so he usually goes to sleep easily until now. At night I was also putting a hand on his chest but he is now fighting me trying to role over so that he can crawl and I don't want to be forcing him down so we have a problem getting to sleep at night. For NW he usually bf so he falls back asleep in my arms while bf.
We had this problem at night when he just started rolling over. It lasted around 3 weeks and then everything went back to normal and the hand on chest was enough again. Now that he can really move I am afraid it will just get worse instead of better. The last few nights I have tried getting him to sleep at night in his crib as usual and after 15-20 minutes of his crawling and me laying him back down repeatedly I just pick him up and falls asleep very fast because he is obviously very tired but will not relax in his crib.
For the naps since has been fighting it the last few days I have had to bf on some occasions to get him to sleep but when he does sleep he sleeps well. He has not been eating his solids in the morning the last few days either. I think he is just too tired in the morning since he is only getting on average 10hrs of sleep when he used to sleep 11.5 hrs. Lunch time is no problem since he is in a better mood after his morning nap. His afternoon nap I have been capping so that his days aren't too long.
So these are my questions:
1. What is with the EW? Could I need to give him an even longer A time at only 7 months 10 days? I feel like am already really pushing it with 3hr35. Maybe only for second nap after such a good morning one?
2. Do you think the bad sleep is developmental or is he only doing it because of bad routine and if he is already awake he might as well practice? He has been army crawling for about 3 weeks and is almost getting into a sitting position alone. Yesterday he started to try pulling up for the first time on the window sill he hasent tried pulling up on the sofa or anything high, only on low things
3. Regarding BT. I spoke to jess on the easy board about his BT and she thinks he may be UT at bedtime and that is what is leading to the 2315 NW and also the crawling in bed at BT. I have started to try a bit longer A's at BT depending on the length often second nap but I am actually maybe thinking he is OT by the end of the day especially with such short nights lately and the crawling. He almost falls asleep BF every night but acts hyper and jittery when I get him dressed after bath and also once I lay him in bed with the crawling. Is it possible to have such high A's throughout the day and the a very short A before bed? If so what would you recommend the A be? I am so confused about this.
4. I think the changes in wake up and the in nap times every day are driving him a bit crazy. Until last week he would always wake at 0630 so his naps were always around the same time give or take 5 minutes. The we stated having bad nights so I wouldn't him sleep in so he wouldn't be OT and everything got messed up, he was waking at 0800 one day, 0700 the next, then 0730, then 0700 again and finally 0600 so his naps have been at all hours and he is constantly rubbing his eyes starting from the moment his naps have usually been before this mess started. I feel like he is the kind of baby that really needs a structured schedules its set times for everything, that is why I really want to get back on track so our day won't be surrounded by constant fussiness, eye rubbing and yawning.
PLEASE HELP!!!
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Sounds like its developmental, TBH. We had sleep disruption with most physical milestones and it settled down after a few weeks every time.
I think you're right to push those A times again with the shorter naps, make sure you hold still for a few days to give him time to get used to them now.
DS did two long A times and a pretty short A to BT quite happily - he needed the long A times but he needed a day not longer than 12.5hr or so, so his routine was something like this for a while:
4hr A
1.5hr nap
3.5hr A
1.5hr nap
2hr A
BT
Maybe you just have to wake him at a certain time if he sleeps in and set naps within a 15min window since his body clock is like that...
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You think he could handle a 4 hr A at his age? Is that even heard of at his age? It seems so high that it scares me a bit...
I realize that I didn't mention that his second nap I have been capping so that his day isn't too long that is why they are less than 1.5 hrs.
Yesterday for example woke him after 2 hrs for his morning nap. And then put him down for afternoon nap after 3hr35 but he cried and fought so I gave him a little boob to relax him and he fell asleep and I capped the nap.
Jess thinks he fought because after a 2hr nap in the morning he was UT
Now this morning I put him down after 3hr35 A like yesterday and he cried again and I was a actually worried about OT because he is been in a horrible mood this morning and super tired so again I gave him boob just for a minute to relax and he is now sleeping almost 2 hrs and I think I will need to wake him again.
Either he is just a little OT and can handle it or he is still getting used to the A? I really don't know... What do you think?
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Not saying you should do that, just saying its possible to do a really short A time to BT ;)
I'd say getting used to the A time. With what's happening in his brain, he will likely be fussy, especially if not given ample opportunity to practise all his new skills. Give him a few days at that 3hr30/40 time and see how he goes. 2hr naps will probably shrink a bit once he's used to it but you'll be able to keep the routine the same for longer.
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Ok I'll do that. So if my day is going like this so far
WU 0555
A 3hr35
S 0930-1130
What do you think A should be after such along nap? 3hr40? And when should I cap it? How long of an A till BT
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And why am I actually getting these EW?
Also, is it ok that he is falling asleep at BT in my arms? Otherwise he won't fall asleep for hours just crawling and playing in his crib. When this whole developmental thing is over will he go back to sleeping with me putting a hand on his chest or do most babies crawl around a bit before they settle down to sleep at night?
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And why am I actually getting these EW?
If his nights aren't below 10hr, its not an EW. Nights shorten when A time needs an increase...
Also, is it ok that he is falling asleep at BT in my arms? Otherwise he won't fall asleep for hours just crawling and playing in his crib. When this whole developmental thing is over will he go back to sleeping with me putting a hand on his chest or do most babies crawl around a bit before they settle down to sleep at night?
Yeah, usually LO's go back to independent sleep pretty easily provided they've been independent sleepers before. DS wriggles about before sleeping, always has.
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so last night was a complete fail and i am starting to lose it! i decided to try and give an EBT of 1800 to catch up on sleep but also to see it maybe he needed a short A before bed. this was our day:
WU 0555
S 0930-1130
S 1500-1540 capped
BT 1800
NW 2030 i dont know if really to call this a NW. he rolled over and stood on all fours. i quickly came in, rolled him back over and poppped in the paci and he was asleep. i think he never actually woke.
NW 0040 BF
NW 0215 got confused with the time and thought it was later so bf again
NW 0250-0450 wide awake playing in bed then crying out for me. when i would pick him and sit with him in chair he would try to stand, pull at my hair. after trying everything to get him to sleep i took him to our bed at 0400 in hopes of sleep and started to cry out of frustration. still would not sleep until i bf again at 0450. by then he was crying because he was so tired.
WU 0700
i am so frustrated and tired. nothing i do gets him to sleep he will just crawl, try to sit up and pull at the top of the crib until he is extremely tired and then cry histerically but will not just lie down and sleep. even if i sit with him this can go on for hours. i am so afraid that bf has become a prop, especially since the last few days of naps he has needed it too. i need help! i dont know what to change with our routine and i dont know how to make this better. he is in a constant bad mood and so am i... i am having a meltdown!
you said he needs an A increase, but where? he isnt even 7.5 months old yet and he is already doing 3hr35 A time. the fact that i am capping the second nap also leaves me in doubt because he is fighting all naps at the moment so i dont know if the A time is right for the second nap especially since i dont know when he would naturally wake from it.... i want to cry again...
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nothing i do gets him to sleep he will just crawl, try to sit up and pull at the top of the crib until he is extremely tired and then cry histerically but will not just lie down and sleep. even if i sit with him this can go on for hours.
This sounds like its developmental with him starting to crawl. Lots of floor time during the day... there's not a lot you can do, his brain is working really hard and not shutting off for sleep. What is his temperament?
Let me see if I can get someone else to have a look. DS did this stuff and it lasted a good couple of weeks every time and then he was fine again, we just had to ride it out, a bit like teething.
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If its developmental I don't have a choice but to ride it out... I would like to figure out the right a times though before bed and to know if the a time before afternoon nap is right
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Well, while the developmental stuff is going on, you can't do much tweaking because the results are unreliable with respect to how he will be once he's through the phase, you know?
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Ok so what do I do when he is actually awake during the night? Leave him to crawl around and wait until he cries for me? Pick him up and try to get him back to sleep? Is it ok to Bf each time to get him to sleep? He is not hungry anymore in the morning, not even for solids...
How long can this go on for? It has already been give or take 2-3 weeks....
I don't remember who it was but someone on the board said something about his routine needing tweaking and that he wasn't waking to practice his skills but that he was practicing them because he was already awake, kwim?
Plus I am so confused about the last a time. I have tried long, I have tried short. I don't know what's best to keep for now...
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Just woke up from am nap after 1hr20. I know a times aren't reliable now but do you think he could do 3hr45 a time or is that too much for his age? He woke up grumpy kind of whining a little, what does that mean?
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Hugs ;)
We are going through shorter nights too but not the NW. We are also up to 3.5/ 345 A times and getting just shy of 1.5 hr naps. My dd is 8 months old. It's crazy. Does your LO seem any different. I can tell in her eyes that less night time sleep is catching up to her but she wakes and just keeps trying to crawl in the morning. I think Bec is right that the brain is so busy. So many changes at this age it seems. Good luck!
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Hi there, Bec has given you wonderful advice. I think you might need to just stay consistent with one routine for several days to a week before trying to change everything again. If 3:30-3:40 A is what works for him right now, then stick with it for a week before you try to change it. One 1h20min nap doesn't necessarily need he means a change. But, if they start happening often, then you need to tweak. Is there a chance he's getting teeth? We've had lots of 1h20min naps while teething and they could also be contributing to the NW.
It really does sound developmental to me as well, but I also wonder if a prop is coming into play. It sounds like you're BFing a lot to sleep and also rushing into him quite quickly to get him back as quick as possible. I don't blame you at all, developmental milestones can be such a bugger. But, if you keep doing it, there's a good chance he'll start waking not because of other things, but because he's gotten used to the prop. I know it's so much easier for me to say, because I'm not going through it right now, but I have BTDT with both my kids and you really do need to ride it out sometimes and let them get it out of their system.
Finally, I don't know that I would be capping a nap below 1hr at this age. Instead, I'd let the day go out to 12.5hr if needed.
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Ok I will keep it up with those A times and see what happens in the next few days or so... But how do I actually know if the afternoon A time is correct if I have to cap it at one hour? I have never waited the whole nap to actually see when he wakes naturally....
He is just sooooo tired right now. He wakes up ok but after half an hour he is in SUCH a bad mood for the entire day and it is horrible for him and for me. He literally cries and whines all day long. I have tried medicating throughout the day thinking maybe it is teeth and that is why is in such a bad mood but there is no difference. He just can't handle an entire week of such short nights! I feel so bad for him!
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Ok so what do I do when he is actually awake during the night? Leave him to crawl around and wait until he cries for me?
Yep, if he's happy, leave him.
At the moment, we have developmental stuff happening here too and DS lies in bed happily for over an hour after he wakes, chatting with his dummies and creating his own little imaginary world for them. His night sleep in incredibly short (getting down to 8.5hr some nights - this from a kid who used to STTN 13hr at times) but he's fine in himself. Barring pain/discomfort or extreme OT, babies really do self-regulate pretty well provided their world is predictable, hence EASY routine.
But how do I actually know if the afternoon A time is correct if I have to cap it at one hour? I have never waited the whole nap to actually see when he wakes naturally....
If you're capping at an hour, its enough that he's getting to an hour.
Developmental stuff often leads to whining and grumping anyway - wanting to do something, being so close and yet not quite there is really frustrating.
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I think both Bec and Katie are right with
1) riding out the developmental stuff as best you can -- and yes, it can cause major grumpiness sometimes
2) keeping an eye on A times (FWIW, 4 hours is actually just the high side of average at his age, not even close to unheard of...) --- and remembering that those A times can change during developmental leaps.
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Katie said something about not capping at less than an hour at my LO's age, but we have had some days with A times of 3hr40 so if I cap at anhour for the pm nap our day ends up being 12hr50 minutes
For example
WU 0700
S 1040-1210
S 1550-1650
BT 1950
That is a really late BT for us. Will he be getting enough night sleep? Should I cap at less or put him to bed earlier? I don't want him OT for bed but don't want him UT either. What do you think?
Also what do I do if the morning nap is 2hrs? Do I have to cap at 1hr30? He is OT at the moment from a week of bad nights so I would love for him to sleep as much as he likes but I don't know what to do with the rest of the day in that situation...
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One last question, if I take him out in the stroller and he falls asleep before his A time is over but make sure to wake him at e hour mark, or leave him to sleep the whole 1.5hrs (since he went to sleep earlier and there is enough time for an entire nap) will that cause NW? (The only reason he can sleep so long with such little A is because he is in the stroller)
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if I cap at anhour for the pm nap our day ends up being 12hr50 minutes
That's ok at this age, we aim for 12hr nights with LO's when they're really little and as they extend A times, we have to give them a little lee-way, so 10hr is the absolute minimum night as a general rule and 11hr is fine, there will be times during a nap transition that you end up with 13hr nights too.
One last question, if I take him out in the stroller and he falls asleep before his A time is over but make sure to wake him at e hour mark, or leave him to sleep the whole 1.5hrs (since he went to sleep earlier and there is enough time for an entire nap) will that cause NW? (The only reason he can sleep so long with such little A is because he is in the stroller)
It might, or it might help him catch up a bit... its worked both ways with DS. Sorry that's not terribly definitive or helpful, but there's no way to know for sure without trying. FWIW, I'd be spending that extra time with him on the floor letting him practise his crawling ;)
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What about the morning nap? Can I let him sleep 2hrs if he wants or do I need to wake him at 1.5 hrs? If I let him sleep our day will be even longer unless I cap the afternoon nap at 30 min.
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Yes, you can let him have 2hr - you really don't want to be capping both naps as that's surefire path to overtiredness really fast. Of he does 2hr in the morning, 45min should be ok to cap at in the afternoon rather than the hour - I wouldn't cap at 30min or you will end up shortening the A time he can do to bedtime but the night will not be much longer and you could end up shifting your day earlier. You just don't want day sleep going below 2.5hr at this age, really.
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Ok... Will give it a try!
Yesterday in the stroller he fell asleep after 2hr50 A time and woke 40 min later...:/ Ended up with a EW at 0430 sleeping on and off for 10 minutes each time and crying all the time until 0600 when he finally slept until 0645 and woke up crying. Horrible mood this morning! I have a feeling I have to really make sure the afternoon wake time is right... Usually with the EW I can get him to fall back asleep and when he is asleep he is really asleep. This time it was like he was dying to sleep but he just couldn't! He just seemed so frustrated.
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This time it was like he was dying to sleep but he just couldn't! He just seemed so frustrated.
Yeah, these are tricky times. Often its because of the buildup of OT - that will go as you continue with the right routine for him and help him catch up with good nights. The adrenalin in his system keeps him awake even though he wants to be sleeping because he is tired - as this reduces, so he will find it easier to sleep in those early hours. You do have to be really careful to stick to the routine like glue for a few days to a week to get him sorted though.
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Oh, I forgot to ask (I hope I'm not driving you too crazy ;) ), if I cap at 1 hr before bed what do you think his wake time should be? And if I cap at 45 min?
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LOL, not at all :)
1hr bought us about 2.5hr at that stage and 45min bought us 2hr - 2hr15 depending on whether he was stirring when I woke him (longer if he was stirring because I got him right at the lightest part of his sleep cycle). You may find he needs slightly more time than that, DS always did fine with quite a short A to bed so long as he had two good long A times in the day.
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And if he takes a 2 hr nap this morning do you think he needs a longer A than 3hr40 before his afternoon nap?
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Not necessarily - remember you're going to cap it at 45min or 1hr max. so provided he's not fighting going down due to UT, you're ok. If he will go down a tad UT and wake independently at 45min-1hr, that will shift BT a little later as you haven't capped the nap, waking naturally feels different, yk?
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What would a NW 50 min after going to bed mean? UT or OT?
This was our day
WU 0645
S 1025-1155
S 1510-1625 in stroller
BT 1910
NW 2000
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With my dd if we get a NW soon after bedtime it's ot. Was your LO upset?
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Yes that's what I thought. He woke up crying, but when I picked him up he fell asleep right away in my arms so I put him back down. He then woke at 2315 crying and when I came to him he wouldn't relax so picked him up again and was wide awake. Decided to BF since it had been over 4 hrs, but he still wasn't tired. In the end he was awake for 2 hrs until 0115 and then woke for the day at 0620, so a 9hr15 min night... Disaster! What does that NW mean? He woke up crying again today! I don't know what to do next.... I feel like his OT is getting worse and worse every night!! We are consistently getting NW of 2 hrs and it is really getting to him.
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So I cut short the morning a by 15 min and he slept for 2 hrs, I had to wake him. I am thinking maybe make this a catch up day... If I take him out in the stroller around 2.5hr a and apop a 1.5 hr nap could that backfire and cause more NW? And when should I put him to bed for the night?
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Ended up taking him out in the stroller and he fell asleep after 2hr40 A for 1hr20 so I guess he was a little UT...
Put him to sleep for the night after 2hr35 A. Lets hope for the best!
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Yep, sounds like he needs a catchup. His sleep needs seem to be increasing - as he comes out of the developmental phase, perhaps? Sleep needs often drop temporarily during a developmental leap ;)
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Sleep needs often drop temporarily during a developmental leap
I agree with this 100%, we were just there about a week and a half ago...
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So this was our day and night... Still EW! :(
WU 0620
A 3hr25
S 0945-1145
A 2hr40
S 1425-1545
A 2hr35
BT 1820
NW 2130
NW 0030 BF
EW 0420-0530
WU 0650
What do you think?
Let's hope we get a good day... How long until those EW disappear?
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EW 0420-0530
How is he sleeping after this? In his bed? What is he doing during this long waking?
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Yes he is sleeping in his bed. When he wakes I leave him until he cries... Usually 15-20 minutes until then. He crawls around, plays with the crib bars. He is wide awake. When he cries I come and sit with him but he crawls to the edge of the crib and tries to grab at me. I ignore him and when he relaxes I leave again. After around an hour of this he cries again, by this time he OT and can't relax so I pick him up and he falls asleep on main 5 minutes
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Well, a long waking in the early hours of the morning is usually down to one of three thing:
* UT - don't think it's that, though its a possibility with only one long A time...
* pain - don't think it's that; or
* development - suspect its that one ;)
so it may stick around a little while longer and settle down.
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Do you think the 2130 NW was OT? Should I put him down a bit earlier today?
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Not necessarily - its pretty much a night-time sleep cycle from when he went to sleep, so I'd say he's just woken when getting to the transition. It happens during developmental stuff but if he's easily settled, that's good.
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He wakes because he rolls over and gets on all fours...grrrr
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Yep, that's life with that stage of sleep when they're hitting a new milestone, I'm afraid. DS did it too. It doesn't last forever.
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He wakes because he rolls over and gets on all fours...grrrr
Just agreeing with Bec, that it's most likely a developmental stage that he's working through. Hang in there!
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So yesterday was a bust...
Here was our day
WU 0650
A 3hr20
S 1010-1110
A 2hr50
S 1400-1437
A 3hr25 tried apoping a CN, no luck so EBT
BT 1805
NW 1900 let out a scream and resettled alone, obviously from OT
NW 2030-2100
NW 0015 BF
EW 0420 I tried a different approach this time and picked him up. I tried to get him to fall asleep on me. He closed his eyes almost instantly but it seemed as if he couldn't sleep and was only resting with his eyes closed. If I moved he opened them. We sat like this until his WU. I thought I would try to move him to bed, no such luck. He woke and was done sleeping.
WU 0550 crying, bad mood all morning
Obviously our day yesterday was bad. I thought after such a good nap the day before with the morning A that we should keep it, especially since he was acting super tired all morning, but big mistake! This morning i ignored his cues and I tried putting him down at 3hr30. He cried and fought me until 03hr40. I'm not sure yet if OT or UT... Seems strange for it to be UT but everything is just making no sense! 03hr20 UT 3hr30 OT? I don't know, we'll see...
Last nights EW was exactly at 0420 again... What's up with that? Could it have started to turn into a habit? Why is he having such a hard time falling back asleep? Even on me?
Another thing... Wen I BF him last night at his 0015 NW he didn't fall back asleep on the boob which is really strange. He would always, since the day he was born, fall back to sleep on the boob in the middle of the night. This time he was still wide awake and he was having a hard time getting back to sleep.... I am guessing its from OT, but is it from our wonky day or from being super OT from the last few weeks?
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I thought after such a good nap the day before with the morning A that we should keep it, especially since he was acting super tired all morning, but big mistake! This morning i ignored his cues and I tried putting him down at 3hr30. He cried and fought me until 03hr40. I'm not sure yet if OT or UT... Seems strange for it to be UT but everything is just making no sense! 03hr20 UT 3hr30 OT? I don't know, we'll see...
This is precisely why you have to stick like glue to one A time for a few days before you know - if you keep chopping and changing, you won't be able to see a pattern, as things like the developmental stuff that's going on at the moment have an immeasurable effect and you could be seeing OT from a few days ago starting to affect today's naps/NW's.
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Well it has been an hour and he is still asleep so we will see how long he sleeps. He did stir a bit at the 30 minute mark. Does that mean he was a bit OT? He has gotten good at sleeping through OT during naps...
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And he is awake... 1hr10 min nap. Apoped and he slept for 5 more minutes :/
He is still so tired! Red eyes and rubbing them... Although he is smiling. Could he be UT?
You think I should keep with 3hr40 for a few days? I tried at 3hr30 but he only fell asleep at 3hr40 so I don't know if to keep at 3hr30 or 3hr40.
What about the second nap? If we get a shorter nap do I make the a shorter or still keep the same?
I guess I am confused because some night we are getting 9.5hrs of sleep and some nights 11.5 so how can I keep the a times the same? Wont he get OT like that?
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If you keep the routine consistent, he will have more of a chance to self-regulate the sleep total - if you chop and change trying to get him to sleep more, you make it harder for his body to know how much sleep he needs when, yk?
When you get a short nap, the general rule is to decrease the next A time by the amount of sleep lost - so he missed out on 20min sleep (1hr30 required nap, 1hr10 actual nap), so reduce A time by 20min. That's not an exact science by any means, but its a starting point so you can work out what works for him.
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Just wanted to update that this morning we kind of lost track of time and were super busy. Once I looked at the clock almost 4hrs had past since my LO woke up this morning. When I put him down he was asleep in less than a minute! This last week he has been fighting me for every nap at 3hr30/40! Maybe I was putting him down too wary all along. I remember you saying your some did a 4/3/2.5 A for some time.... I was just too afraid to try it! Could that be the cause for all the EW?!? I am still shocked how easily he went to sleep! No fighting, no trying to roll over, no crying. He hasnt gone down so easily in weeks! Maybe I have finally figured it out! Oh I hope so! My fingers are crossed for a good nap!
So now I have a few questions...
If his morning A is 4hrs, is it possible he needs a 4hr A for his second nap too? He is only 7.5 months old. Is that even normal? Or if he does such a high morning A then he has to have a shorter second A?
I would love some advice where to go from here seeing that I was wrong all along! I really don't know what to do now with second A and BT!
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If his morning A is 4hrs, is it possible he needs a 4hr A for his second nap too? He is only 7.5 months old. Is that even normal? Or if he does such a high morning A then he has to have a shorter second A?
No way to know without trying ;) It would be unusual to be doing 4hr for both 1st and 2nd A times at this age. I'd be watching for cues at 3hr and putting down at 3hr30 maximum for a few days and see how you go - you'll have to cap the PM nap...
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1st nap 1hr25 ill stick with it and see what happens
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So an update from yesterday. I think I made the right decision upping the A times. Our night is still far from perfect but it is still pretty damn good compared to the last few weeks
WU 0615
A 4hr
S 1015-1140
A 3hr20
S 1500-1610
A 2hr30
BT 1840
NW 0300-0345 crawled and tried to settle alone in crib for 20 min until paci fell on the floor. Then started to cry. BF
EW 0530 slept in my arms on chair until WU
WU 0625
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Cool, sounds like a routine to stick with for a few days and see what happens.
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I'm back and not with any good news...
We have had a pretty difficult week. LO got a cold and has been with a runny nose and cough since Sunday night. A times have been a mess and so has sleep. I have been apoping to sleep all week because he cries hysterically every time I put him down for a nap. I am so confused now with our A's and I think he has gotten used to BF to sleep. I don't really know what to do. Our A times have been very irregular since he has been sleeping badly because of the stuffy nose. I guess breathing through your mouth while sucking on a paci is a bit difficult! ::)
He is now in a better mood even though he is still coughing so we are through the worst of it. I would like to start working on him sleeping independently again but he cries hysterically every time and I don't know if it is from the habit I have now formed or because he is still not feeling 100%.
I have been keeping to A times of 3hr30-4hrs but they have all been with heavy crying and all have led to naps of 1hr30-2hrs so I am having a difficult time deciding what to stick to. His nights have been BAD except for one night, the day after he became sick, I think he was just exhausted from feeling bad. Although that day he had a 40 min UT nap and then a 1hr30 pm nap, so maybe That is just the perfect amount of day sleep for him? The rest of the week we have gotten nights of 8hr30-9hr30 so he is extremely OT but during the day he has been sleeping 3-3.5hrs. Maybe that's too much day sleep for him?
Lucky me... I am now sick too!
Anyways, last night one of his NW was at 0300 (after a 2 hr waking at 2200) and I was feeling really sick and decided to wait a bit before going to him. He was not crying hard just kind of calling for me. I was surprised to wake again at 0500 to see that he was asleep and didn't need me. AND HE WAS ASLEEP ON HIS TUMMY! That's a first!!! Then at 0530 he woke again and I decided to go to him thinking that it was a much more difficult hour to fall back asleep alone. The moment he saw me he started to cry hysterically and then I had to pick him up. I think he does much better when I am not there... But I don't want him to think I am abandoning him so what do I do? This morning DH said he heard him cry and didn't understand why I didn't go to him... In my DH eyes he was crying but to me it wasn't really a real cry, ykwim?
So, now what do I do? I am confused about A times, I am confused about day sleep totals, I am confused about him falling asleep independently. Is he well enough or should I wait for the cough to pass? What do I do? Please help me!
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I decided to go to him thinking that it was a much more difficult hour to fall back asleep alone. The moment he saw me he started to cry hysterically and then I had to pick him up. I think he does much better when I am not there... But I don't want him to think I am abandoning him so what do I do? This morning DH said he heard him cry and didn't understand why I didn't go to him... In my DH eyes he was crying but to me it wasn't really a real cry, ykwim?
This bit here is key - if his crying escalates when you go in, its usually because you've interrupted his self-settling attempts. Do you know his mantra cry?
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Not really...when he was younger I would say yes but he doesn't cry the same way he did when younger. Last night iit was kind of like short sobs then quite for a minute and repeat. When he saw me it was a serious cry like when he hurts himself or something.
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Last night iit was kind of like short sobs then quite for a minute and repeat.
This sounds like a mantra cry to me.
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Ok I will try him to let him resettle at night and see what happens...
I just don't know what to do with everything else at the moment...
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If he's still feeling bad, there's only so much you can do right now (though I understand that you need some sleep too right now!). If you suspect that he's starting to feel better, I would slowly wean him off whatever you're doing to get him to sleep (and when he's really feeling better, he will most likely go back to independent sleep) -- when James was that age and was sick, I'd end up rocking him to sleep for all of his naps and holding him for most of them -- so I'd rock and then put him down in his crib with my hands on him, then wean the rocking.
If he's still not better, less A time is probably in order -- I might cut back to 3.15 and see where that gets you -- if you wind up with an UT nap, then you'll know you need more. DS takes stupidly short naps when he's sick, but he always wakes crying so I know that the shortness isn't due to UT.
All 3 of mine turned into tummy sleepers once they could roll well, he's probably just finding what is most comfortable.
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DS is finally feeling better but our NW the past few days were ridiculous and I had a feeling that LO became addicted to allot this apoping that's two months so I have been working with katie the past few days on PUPD and the NW have gone way down and there is still some crying and PUPD going on but all in all things are better. Since DS knew how to self settle before, if I get his A times right he goes down very easily but when they are wrong that is when the hysteria begins.
Anyways, I would love your help figuring out the right A times finally and then maybe we can get rid of the annoying NW and EW. They have been the same ones for months.
Last few days:
Dec. 9th
BT 1800
NW 1930-2200 this is when I started PUPD because I didn't have energy for another sleepless night.
NW 0020 BF PD awake. Fell asleep after 2 PUPD
EW 0445-0530
WU 0800
Dec. 10th
WU 0800
Attempted sleep 1125 hysterical crying non stop for 40 min. Passed out at 1205-1305
Attempted sleep at 1610 hysterical crying until 1650. Took him out of crib and decided not to try again since it was so late and do EBT
BT 1820 asleep after one PUPD
NW 0010 BF went start back to sleep but was in a strange position (it looked like he would break his neck, so I tried to slowly move him and he woke :-\) played in crib until 0050 and then fell asleep independently.
EW 0510 woke up whining. Fussed and tried to settle until 0530 then started to cry. BF and put back down but then just wanted to play so we got up at 0600.
Yesterday
WU 0510 (but started day at 0600)
A 3hr40 (DS needs time in crib also included)
S 0850-1020 (started whining during WD, I thought maybe he was afraid to go down and we were going to have some crying but actually was asleep in less than a minute. I think he just wanted me to put him down already. Woke rubbing eyes and whining. I think he was still tired but he wouldn't resettle)
Attempted to PD at 1400 (3hr40 A) during WD he started to cry a little so I thought it was the same as this morning but when I put him down he played in his crib with his pacifiers changing between them, then standing. 20 minutes later he started to cry and we started PUPD until 1445 w hen he fell asleep in hysteria. He woke at 1600 so 1hr15 nap.
BT 1845 (I think I put him down too early and he was UT. He played fora while, then started to cry. PUPD until 1920)
NW 0050 BF PD awake, straight to sleep
NW 0210-0330 PUPD, a lot of crying. This a very common and long NW for us. Even apoping to sleep never worked in the past.
EW 0450 BF right back to sleep independently
WU 0615 crying
So our problem I think is mostly figuring out correct second A, and stoping long NW and EW. Please help me!!! :'(
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I have been going over my notes and I think our day needs to be something like this
For example:
WU 0700
A 3hr45
S 1045-1215/1245
A 2hr30-45
S 1515-1645
A 2hr15
BT 1900
The problem is that DS has never slept for 12 hours. His longest nights have been 11.5 hrs. Plus, this routine only works if he has one 2hr nap. If he has a 1.5hr nap the day is only 11.5hrs. He will never sleep 12.5hrs! How do I make a day like this work??
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Havent heard back... Would be grateful for some help! :'(
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He will never sleep 12.5hrs!
I wouldn't expect him to at this age. You're heading towards the later stages of 2 naps and in order to get your longer A time in, along with 2 decent naps, you should expect about an 11 hour night -- the night gets longer again when they get on 1 nap, but at his age, I wouldn't expect a night that long.
I'd start with your first A time -- do you know that if you do a 3.45 A time you'll get a 2 hour nap? If you can get that consistently, I'd do a full A time again for the second nap (does he like shorter ones as the day goes on?) and possibly cap the second nap around 45 minutes so you can still do BT at a decent hour.
So, possibly something like this: (granted, this only works if he'll do okay with consistent A times -- if he needs them shortened, we can alter)
7 - WU
10:45-12:45 - nap
4:15-5 - nap
8 - BT
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That is what I have been doing until now, but he always fights me on the second nap so that is why I think it is totally the wrong time. Plus, if those times are correct, why am I getting these NW and EW?? Why is he so OT??
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OK, that makes sense.
Is this true: do you know that if you do a 3.45 A time you'll get a 2 hour nap?
The best way to find out would be to try the shortened A time and see if he fights you and what kind of nap you get.
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Sometimes I get a 1.5hr nap in the morning but mostly 2 hour.
I tried 3hrs for the second nap today and it was an hour of hysteria and PD...in the end no nap and EBT...
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Ugh, that's not fun at all. So, you're thinking OT before the naps then? If so, then cut the A time back some more. (They can fight it if they're not ready either way -- OT or UT, but since you think he's OT, then I'd shorten the A time and see where it gets you.) It wouldn't be unusual for him to need less A time as the day goes on.
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I don't have a problem cutting back some more but by how much? Could his second A be so low?
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15 minutes, I'm not really sure. I know you have an EASY post going right now -- maybe see what those ladies say?
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Sure, though I haven't gotten a reply...
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I'm sure it's coming. :) EASY gets very busy sometimes.
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Ok...thanks for your help!! :)
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Since we're working on routine now, I'm going to lock this one and continue here:
Something is off with our EASY