BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: dlhson on November 29, 2012, 22:53:59 pm
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(I thought I'd update our progress briefly directly at the end of the question, hoping that other people in the same situation can see it more quickly)
Hello all,
I'm a proud dad of a 6.75-month baby girl who likes to smile, eat and play quite well during the day. She's been a Textbook girl. But recently, when the night falls, she becomes crazily fussy. This has been going on for a month now and we, especially my wife is so tired and stressed.
BACKGROUND: 2-4 months
Just a bit of background. Our baby slept through the night (10pm-6am) when she was 1.5 months old (in her own cot, same bedroom). It lasted until she was 4 months, when she would wake up 2, 3 times a night. We started to give solids to the pediatrician's advice. She didn't like it so much. Night breastfeeding didn't help either. So we decided to stop breastfeeding at night and use CONTROLLED CRYING for ~2 weeks. She was able to go to sleep at 8pm instead of 10pm, but still wake up 1, 2 times a night. Cried for maximum 1h and slept back on her own.
The problem was that she didn't eat much solids and we didn't force her to have more breastmilk. At 5 months, we started to worry about her weight when the measures showed that she gained only 200g after 1 month.
6 MONTHS AND TRACY'S BOOKS
At 6 months old, she was behind the weight growth (went from 30 percentile curve to 1 percentile curve). She gained only 500g after a 2 month period (5.7kg at 6months, compared to 5.2kg at 4 months. The pediatrician urged us to feed more.
In desperation there was light: WE FOUND TRACY'S BOOK - The BW Solves all your problems (a friend was kind enough to give it to us as a gift ater successfully used it for her dear son). Instantly, we discovered that the NWs at 4 months are just due to hunger and the switch from 3h to 4h EASY schedule at 4 month mark. Controlled crying just starved her during the night I guess.
We applied EASY for the little one right away (when she was 6.10 months, nearly a month ago, November 7th) and achieved great results from day 1. Getting her to sleep at 7:30pm after following a bedtime routine (bath, breastfeed and relax) was as easy as just putting her on the bed (her own cot, different room than us). Daily naps are also so easy, 2 times/day, 2h each. Eating solids significantly improved. Over the last month, she's started to eat twice as much solids during the day. (3 weeks into EASY routine, she gained 400g, getting back to 7 percentile curve)
We also discovered dreamfeeding and used it too.
WORSE NIGHTWAKINGS
During the 1st week of EASY, the only problem was still her customary night waking at around 4, 4:30am, cried and refused to sleep until 5:30am or 6am. Several nights, she would wake up at 1 or 2am as well (either getting back to sleep on her own or after comforting).
We didn't use PU/PD then because we thought that'd confuse our baby (used controlled crying at 5-month) but we came in to comfort her (shushing/patting/putting face next to her). But it's worse than using controlled crying. It'd last for 2 hours or more.
After a few nights, we eventually did a few things in hindsight were not right: turning on the light, playing with her at 5am, bringing her to our bed for a night, putting her on a rocking chair.
GETTING WORSE TO WORST
1 week into EASY routine, she started to have random NWs and crying. The first night at 22pm. After 15mins shushing and back patting, she went back to sleep. Woke up again at 2am until 5am. We used shushing/padding but to no avail (then later discovered that these 2 techniques aren't suitable for 6months baby and older).
The next few nights were crazy. She would wake up anytime she wants (22pm, 0am, 1am, 2am, 3am), cry (start with a kind of mantra cry but then quite loud fussing, and varies in tone and volume) and wouldn't go back to sleep until 5am. She would wake up for the day at ~7:30am-8am (the last few days at 6:30am).
After several nights unsuccessfully resolve these NWs, we decided to use PU/PD. The 1st two nights were promising. She went back to sleep at 5am, after ~1, 1.5h of PU/PD. But then we couldn't use it the right way the next nights: because the cry is not hard enough (just a kind of hard mantra cry with some intermitten shouting). And mainly because when put down, she stops crying for 2 minutes (or 5mins) (we thought she was going to sleep), but then start crying again. Over and over. The whole night.
The important thing to notice is: SHE STOPS CRYING HARD AS SOON AS MY WIFE GETS IN AND COMFORTS HER (touching, putting hand on her back/putting head close to her). She seems to get back to sleep. But it lasts only for 10-15minutes, then she starts crying again. If I come in, she wouldn't stop crying.
It has been like that for the last 2-3 weeks. Starting from 9pm till 7am. Dozens of NWs. She is unsettled and doesn't sleep longer than 30 mins chunks from 9pm till 11:30pm. And a longer stretch until 1 or 2am, then fussily crying till morning without sleeping longer than 30mins. And we are dead tired right now. My wife is so stressed and need sleeps. I was red-eyed looking at books, advices and forums. The family ambiance is really tense at night.
DAILY ROUTINE FOR THE LAST 3 WEEKS
It has been quite consistent during the day and crazy at night.
8am (E): Solid (vegetables) from 50-100ml + Breastfeeding for 10-15mins. The last few days, she wakes up at 6, 6:30, crying and then up for the day.
9am (A): Play
10am (S): Nap for 1.30h - 2h
12am (E): Solid (vegatable) from 50-70ml + Breastfeeding for 10-15mins
13pm (A): Play
14pm (S): Nap for 1.30h
15:30pm (E): Solid (fruits) 60-80ml
16:30pm (A): Play
17:30pm (S): Solid (cereal + milk): 100-150ml
18:15pm (A): Bedtime routine: bath, changing diaper, breastfeeding, relax
19:15pm (S): Putting to bed.
20:00pm-morning: waking up like crazy, every 1-2h, or even 15mins.
OTHER CUES
- No dreamfeed or breastfeeding during the night whatsoever for a month now (since starting EASY). No bottle since 1month old.
- No nap after 15:30pm until 19:30pm when she was put to bed.
- At first we thought the dreamfeeding gives her the habit of waking during the night. Still not sure, but we stopped anyway.
- The pediatrician checked and said she may be suffering from toothing but we haven't seen any so far. No other toothing signs (no constipation/diarrhea, no red bottom, no fever,...). But we gave her the Camillia, a kind of homeotheapy medicine for the last 3 days. No improvement.
- She seems ok during the day, no apparent problem with eating/playing (apart from some increasing fuss when put to nap the last couple of days). She smiles and plays with me when I come back from work. So lovely.
- We're starting to think this might be a kind of separation anxiety. Because she stops crying quite quickly when my wife gets in. The problem is she can't sleep stretches at night longer than maximum 2h.
DESPARATION
We are really stumped, lost and not knowing what to do now. My wife goes to bed at 9pm, trying to get some sleep. But our baby can wake up as soon as 9:30pm. It's just crazy. All I can do is to get in to the baby's room with my wife to mentally support her during the night.
Would you be so kind as to give us some advice? Can it be some pain due to toothing (because the pediatrician suppose)? or separation anxiety (because she stops with my wife, not me)? or even hunger (because the wakeup time is quite varied)? or any other reason?
I'd really appreciate any help from you. Thank you very much for reading such a long post. I just hope I can give as much info as I can.
*** ADVICE ***
I got very helpful advice from ZacsMumme, becj86, *Kara*, j.and.e and support from many people. Thanks a lot for your caring and sharing.
The consensus seems to be her A time is too short in the morning and too long in the afternoon, which leads to OT and NWs during the night, as well as EWs since her body may have told her "You are going to nap soon anyway so it's no problem waking up early". Our eyes are lit up like a bulb when we saw your answers. It all makes perfect sense.
*** THE PLAN ***
1- Stretch her A time to ~2.45 to 3h in the morning to balance out the day's routine, OR
2- Introduce a catnap in the evening.
We go for the 1st one and use the 2nd one as plan B. The aim is extend A time to 3h but listen carefully to her signs. Reduce A time accordingly in case she can't nap a full 2h. Don't allow a nap shorter than 30mins by doing PU/PD/shush/pat/whatever works.
*** PROGRESS IN BRIEF (please read through the thread for more info) ***
- Night before day D: Waking up like crazy, every 15 to 30mins from 8pm till 6am.
- day D (seeing improvement):
- Sleep in till 9am.
- 1st A time: 2h35mins (she seems tired at only 2h mark but we tried to add another 35mins of low key activities). Nap for only 45 mins (shortest in a month, don't know why). Woke up at 12:15pm.
- 2nd A time: 2h15mins. Nap for only 35 mins (don't know why either). Wake up at 15:05pm
- At 18:30, put to bed when we saw signs of tiredness at around 18:15. It's been 3h30 since last nap so it makes sense.
- From 19:00 till 0:00 woke up every 30mins, but settled down on her own (only 1 time need comforting). THIS IS THE RECORD!!!
- At 0:30 need comfort for 30mins and a very quick breastfeed (5mins). Settled down and SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT!!! We woke up at 6:30am and saw that she was playing on her own already without crying or anything. We just can't believe it.
- day D+1 (back to craziness + eating less):
- Start the day at 07:00
- 1st A time: 2h50mins, nap for 1h30mins, woke up at 11:20
- 2nd A time: 2h30mins, nap for 1h10mins, woke up at 15:00
- We offered a catnap at 16:45 but cried. We tried comforting then PU/PD but after 30mins, since it'd be too late, we picked her up.
- Bedtime: 18:15 to avoid OT
- From 18:45 to 22:30, woke up every 20 or 30mins and needed comforting for almost all of them.
- From 22:45 to 02:00am: sleep a long stretch.
- From 02:00 to 04:30: crying, stop for 5mins when comforting, then start again. Breastfed for 15mins. Afterwards, same things happened. We brought her to our bed at 4:15 due to exhaustion. Crying for a bit (~15mins), then sleep until 7am.
- day D+2 (craziness + eating less):
- 1st A time: 3h, nap for 1h30, woke up at 11:30
- 2nd A time: 3h, nap only 30mins, woke up at 15:00 (tried PU/PD but after 30mins, we picked her up)
- Breastfed at 16:00 to get her into a catnap but cried for 10mins, breastfed again at 16:30. Sleeping during breastfeeding, then put to bed, napping a total of 40mins.
- Bedtime: 19:00. It's 20:00 now and already woke up twice and needed comforting. It's hard to feel positive!
(Sorry we're too exhausted to update here. If you're interested please read through the posts :)
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Hugs and welcome to the boards :D
Ill be back but a few things quickly.
I think she has to short of an A time for her age, I would work on gently increasing them closer to 3 hrs before and between naps and cutting the catnap out ;) this will help with the ew and make her more tired to sleep soundly at night.
WRT CC, your LO may be suffering from SA as a result of it, and needing to build back that trust with you and your wife. I'm thinking gradual weaning may work better than PU/PD...I'm going to see if I can get some more eyes on this for you from people who have BTDT in trying to teach sleep after CC/CIO as it affects how LOs will respond
If your not sure about teething, try pain meds 20 mins before BT and see if it helps :-*
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Hi :)
14pm (S): Nap for 1.30h
15:30pm (E): Solid (fruits) 60-80ml
16:30pm (A): Play
17:30pm (S): Solid (cereal + milk): 100-150ml
18:15pm (A): Bedtime routine: bath, changing diaper, breastfeeding, relax
17:15pm (S): Putting to bed.
20:00pm-morning: waking up like crazy, every 1-2h, or even 15mins.
Can you clarify for me - is she sleeping at all between 1530 when she wakes from her nap and 19:15 when she goes to bed for the night? If not, she'll need a catnap in there somewhere until you've increased those A times closer to 3hr so she's not so overtired when going to bed.
Is she feeding at all during the night?
Lack of sleep is awful. Hopefully we can help you get your DD onto a great routine and sleeping better for you soon.
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Hello :)
I can completely relate to your experience with CC... this is my story: Kara & Alexandra's Story
I agree with Sara that her routine is too young for her... she is likely getting too much day sleep and not enough A time to sleep well at night right now.
Do you know her BW personality? Is she textbook/angel/grumpy/touchy/spirited? Her temperament will affect how we should approach changing her routine around...
In the meantime, if she wants your wife for comfort, then I would just have your wife go to her in the night... if you going is making her get more upset, no one is benefiting... it could be SA, but that generally isn't bad until about 8/9 months and tends to manifest more when baby is first put down at night/naps.
Also, I would consider trying a dose of Advil/Motrin about 30 mins before bedtime to rule out teething pain. Camilia is good for day time distraction but I have no real faith in it in terms of real pain relief ;)
Here is a link that will provide you with some sample routines based on LOs age:
Sample EASY Routines from 0 - 13mths+
Here are A times that are suited based on age - remember though, all babies are different ;)
Awake time for babies
Newborn 50-60 mins
1 month 60 mins-hour and 15
2 months 1 hour and 15 - 20 mins
3 months 1 hour and 20 - 30 mins
4 months 1 hour and 45 - 2 hours
5 months 2 hours - 2.25 hours
Late 5 months/early 6 months 2.25-2.5 hours
6.5 - 7 months 2.75-3 hours. Some are getting more.
8 - 10 months 3 - 4 hours. Some are getting more.
11 - 12 months 3.5 -4.5 hours. Some are getting more if moved early to 1 nap
***Remember these are guidelines, NOT rules, so if you feel that your baby is not yet ready for these A times, please do not force them, as this will cause further problems***
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I'm deeply grateful for your feedback. At this point in time, there's nothing more wonderful than that. I wanted to continue pressing "Thank you" to your profiles but the Forum didn't allow me to do it more than once.
Here are my information to your questions. It's really about "asking the right questions" as Tracy said.
Is she sleeping at all between 1530 when she wakes from her nap and 19:15 when she goes to bed for the night?
--> No. But some days, the afternoon nap is from 2 to 4pm.
Is she feeding at all during the night?
--> No. We tried hard not to since applying EASY.
Do you know her BW personality?
--> Textbook, I'd say. But she's turning to a Touchy during the night now I think. We have to be extremely quiet at night or she would wake up. Well, she would anyway anytime. :(
I also updated my post to provide a few more pieces of info. I also read Kara and Alexandra's story. So touched. I wish all of you peaceful and much rest with your little ones.
Thanks and looking forward to hearing from you again. In the meantime, we'll try to stretch her A time. It just makes perfect sense to me right now.
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Starting from 9pm till 7am. Dozens of NWs. She is unsettled and doesn't sleep longer than 30 mins chunks from 9pm till 11:30pm.
This sounds like overtiredness - likely just that she's having that long stretch of awake time before bed - stretching her A times and getting her day more balanced will help with that. Adding in a catnap in the meantime may help too.
And a longer stretch until 1 or 2am, then fussily crying till morning without sleeping longer than 30mins.
This bit sounds to me like she's hungry - its not unusual for a breastfed baby to need a night feed at this age. Night Feeds and the Breast Fed Baby I honestly think that if you feed her at this time, she will probably sleep another longer stretch rather than being up all night - I'd say she's hungry that early in the night because she's using energy crying and trying to get back to sleep, so that feed would likely naturally get later as she starts sleeping better in the early part of the night. The aim at the moment is to get her day routine on track and get her as well rested as you can. Does that make sense?
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Praps mum can sleep on a mattress on the floor of babys room for a while to save getting up and down all nite. I did this for a while when sleep was bad. Xx
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I'll leave you in the hands of these lovely ladies but I couldn't read this post without saying I was so touched by your concern for your wife and your daughter.
Great to come across such a caring DH on the boards.
I'm sure things will improve for you. All the very best.
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Do you know her BW personality?
--> Textbook, I'd say. But she's turning to a Touchy during the night now I think. We have to be extremely quiet at night or she would wake up. Well, she would anyway anytime
She is likely just a textbook who is overtired and not well rested then ;) They all get touchy if overtired... mine too :) She could just be easily awakened because she is not sleeping well and going into a proper deep sleep... this will subside as she gets older and once we get her back on track.
Alright, so what I would do first is start pushing her first A time in the morning when she gets up. Try to get her to 3 hrs as best you can with low key things like walking around the house and looking at pictures etc... having her first A time too short can actually perpetuate her getting up too early in the day - her body will know that she is going to get a nap soon, so it's okay to wake now, KWIM?
If she takes a good nap of 90 mins or more, aim for a second A time of 3hrs again or a little more, like 3 hrs 15mins. Same thing, keep things mellow for the last 30 mins or so of her A time...
If she short naps (less than 90 mins) for any nap, reduce her following A time by about 15-20 mins, so approx 2 hrs 45 mins - 3 hrs. Keep a really close eye on her if she does short nap less than an hour, she could need to go back down after only 2 hrs or so... If she wakes at 30 mins into a nap, this is because she is overtired, do what you can to get her back to sleep... shush pat/rock her a little bit etc... whatever works. At this point, it's most important that we get her over the OT buildup.
If she wakes in the night and it has been at least 4 hrs since her last feed, go ahead and feed her... bear in mind she may be hungry after only 3 hrs if she has been crying for a bit...
Good luck - you can do this :)
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Thanks so much everybody for giving us a hand! We are a couple living far from our family. And we don't want to worry them about these things. So basically you and our friends in person are all we have. I can't say enough how much we appreciate your advice. They all make perfect sense. We were so excited last night to start working it out today.
But life is tough sometimes. Our DD woke up so much that we lost count last night. Basically every 15 or 30 minutes from 11pm till 6am, at which time we had to call it a night and breastfeed her. She refused to go back to sleep afterwards. Exhausted, we brought her to our bed at 7am, and there, three of us passed out for 2h.
So the day is messed up although we tried our best anyway to stretch her A time. Here is today's routine.
Nighttime party
6am (E): 20mins breastfeed
7am (S): co-sleeping
9am (A): wakeup
9:45 (E): 70ml vegetables and cereal
11:35 (S): nap for 45mins
12:15: wakeup
12:45 (E): 100ml fruit powder + milk
13:15 (A): play. At 14:15 she shows signs of tiredness.
14:30 (S): nap for 30mins
15:00: wakeup
15:10 (E): 80ml fruit
16:00 (A): have a walk
17:30 (E): 140ml cereal
18:00 (A): bedtime routine (bath, diaper, relax). She used her tiny little hand to rub her eyes several times, so we decided to breastfeed only 5mins and put her to bed.
18:40 (S): we're tensely waiting for the night now. It's 19:45 and she already woke up twice (once getting back to sleep on her own, the other one with comforting from mom).
I'll keep you posted about our progress. Thanks again to everybody for all this support!!! I can't believe we got feedback within a day since posting. Hugs to you all and wish you a nice sleep with your LOs and DH/DW.
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Hi there, I hope things are going well. I just wanted to give you some hope, we are seeing a wee bit of improvement here with pushing out and being consistent with a times. I dont think it is something these Los can change in a day I think it takes a few days to a week to see a difference.
You will sleep again, in the mean time, try to nap when she does or at least encourage your DW to do so. You sound like a great Daddy and hubby, very supportive, just what they both need.
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Hello all,
Thanks again for all of your support, both in terms of knowledge and mental.
I updated my origin post with our progress for the 1st 2 days so other people in the same situation can see faster what needs to be done (that is if we ever succeed :D). We saw improvement last night despite the messed up schedule. Still waiting for tonight. But she woke up twice already in a space of 45mins and needed comforting. Probably a long night again for us. And tomorrow it's work time for me :(
Here is the routine for the last 2 days, just so you don't have to scroll all the way back up.
- day D (yesterday):
Sleep in till 9am.
1st A time: 2h35mins (she seems tired at only 2h mark but we tried to add another 35mins of low key activities). Nap for only 45 mins (shortest in a month, don't know why). Woke up at 12:15pm.
2nd A time: 2h15mins. Nap for only 35 mins (don't know why either). Wake up at 15:05pm
At 18:30, put to bed when we saw signs of tiredness at around 18:15. It's been 3h30 since last nap so it makes sense.
From 19:00 till 0:00 woke up every 30mins, but settled down on her own (only 1 time need comforting). THIS IS THE RECORD!!!
At 0:30 need comfort for 30mins and a very quick breastfeed (5mins). Settled down and SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT!!! We woke up at 6:30am and saw that she was playing on her own already without crying or anything. We just can't believe it.
- day D+1 (today):
Start the day at 07:00
1st A time: 2h50mins, nap for 1h30mins, woke up at 11:20
2nd A time: 2h30mins, nap for 1h10mins, woke up at 15:00
We offered a catnap at 16:45 but cried. We tried comforting then PU/PD but after 30mins, since it'd be too late, we picked her up.
Bedtime: 18:15 to avoid OT
Nervously waiting for the night. It's 20:15 and she woke up 4 times and needed comforting for each of them.
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SOrry I havent been back on
That is wonderful progress. I know it probably doesnt feel like it but i would stick with that first A time for now, and then after a good nap (like the one above) try for another 2hrs45 mins and another nap. I wouldnt bother with the CN if she wakes after 3pm but try EBT closer to 6pm if you can. This will help with the OT.
WRT the frequent NW do you think there is any discomfort or just her learning to settle on her own? Sometimes teething can mess with sleep at night.
Hope you and your DW are feeling positive! :D It is hard, but you will get there! x
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Hi ZacsMumme,
We really don't know what caused her to wake up every 30mins like this. (But she stops as soon as my wife gets in the room and just says "I'm here".). We believe she knew how to settle down on her own before. And last night she was able to do that most of the time. The crying is different somehow.
We don't see any sign of teething either. We gave Camillia + Osa gel 2 times/day for 3 days in a row but the situation didn't change. Maybe we should give pain killers before bedtime like you and Kara said?
Also, can you tell me what "first A time" you were referring to? day D or day D+1? And why 2h45mins for the 2nd nap? Because our DD looks tired at day D+1 at the 2h mark before the 2nd nap. We tried to keep her up for 2:30.
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Just a bit of update. I think we still have a long way to go. Last night was back to craziness. And the bad thing is her food intake and afternoon nap time have started to decrease for the last 2 days.
- day D+1:
Start the day at 07:00
1st A time: 2h50mins, nap for 1h30mins, woke up at 11:20
2nd A time: 2h30mins, nap for 1h10mins, woke up at 15:00
We offered a catnap at 16:45 but cried. We tried comforting then PU/PD but after 30mins, since it'd be too late, we picked her up.
Bedtime: 18:15 to avoid OT
From 18:45 to 22:30, woke up every 20 or 30mins and needed comforting for almost all of them.
From 22:45 to 02:00am: sleep a long stretch.
From 02:00 to 04:30: crying, stop for 5mins when comforting, then start again. Breastfed for 15mins. Afterwards, same things happened. We brought her to our bed at 4:15 due to exhaustion. Crying for a bit (~15mins), then sleep until 7am.
- day D+2:
1st A time: 3h, nap for 1h30, woke up at 11:30
2nd A time: 3h, nap only 30mins, woke up at 15:00 (tried PU/PD but after 30mins, we picked her up)
Breastfed at 16:00 to get her into a catnap but cried for 10mins, breastfed again at 16:30. Sleeping during breastfeeding, then put to bed, napping a total of 40mins.
Bedtime: 19:00.
It's 20:00 now and already woke up twice and needed comforting. It's hard to feel positive. :( What are we doing wrong? Maybe the 2nd A time in the afternoon was too long today. On day D+1, she could nap for 1h10mins. Only 30mins today.
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We really don't know what caused her to wake up every 30mins like this. (But she stops as soon as my wife gets in the room and just says "I'm here".). We believe she knew how to settle down on her own before. And last night she was able to do that most of the time. The crying is different somehow.
Do you think its part of the SA from CC? - She may be needing reassurance? hugs its tough when they are up and down so often!
Maybe we should give pain killers before bedtime like you and Kara said?
It wont hurt to try and then rule it out ;)
Also, can you tell me what "first A time" you were referring to? day D or day D+1? And why 2h45mins for the 2nd nap? Because our DD looks tired at day D+1 at the 2h mark before the 2nd nap. We tried to keep her up for 2:30.
I suspect she looks tired because this is when she is used to sleeping. 1.10 is a typical UT nap lenth, plus she is quiet old to be having a CN, it is likely this is robbing from night sleep. When she refuses it because of UT she then is probably OT by BT. At this age she should be able to do 3 hrs A after a good nap. Though I know she may need time to get there.
- day D+2:
1st A time: 3h, nap for 1h30, woke up at 11:30
2nd A time: 3h, nap only 30mins, woke up at 15:00 (tried PU/PD but after 30mins, we picked her up)
Breastfed at 16:00 to get her into a catnap but cried for 10mins, breastfed again at 16:30. Sleeping during breastfeeding, then put to bed, napping a total of 40mins.
Bedtime: 19:00.
Ok just seen this ^^ That first A time is great. I would stick with that. I wonder if the jump to 3hrs A second A time was too fast resulting in the 30min OT nap, hence trying 2hrs45 mins first to gradually push her out.
Have you tried changing the scene if she gets fusy around the 2hr mark? Often they give tired signs at this age too when they are bored, overstimulated, need a change of scene, hungry etc
It's hard to feel positive. What are we doing wrong?
Nothing, babies are hard to work out! I do think she is definately in a bit of an UT/OT loop and things will start to improve.
When she wakes in the night how much is she crying? - what is the NW like ie screaming? fussing then cry? etc
hang in there!!!
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Hello all,
We are REALLY REALLY DESPERATE NOW! It'd be a bit of an exageration to say she didn't sleept at all for 2 nights now. But it's quite close to reality.
Stretching the 1st A time in the morning seems quite ok, about 3h. But in the afternoon, she refuses to take naps even though she shows signs of tiredness at about 2.25 or 2.5h mark. She would cry the world out no matter what we tries. But she naps anyway for about 30mins on day D+3, and 1h on day D+4 after fighting so much and being put on a stroller and went out of the house.
But the worst part is the night. 2 nights in a row now, she slept for a total of only ~3-4h each. The rest is spent crying, screaming. She would cry no matter what we did. Only when we turned on the light, held her on our shoulder and walked around the house. She would look happy and wide awake. As soon as we stopped, she cried.
We don't care about not using props anymore. We used anything we could, breastfeeding, changing diaper, giving meds, rocking, bringing her to our bed, you name it. Nothing worked! We would use any prop right now if you can just tell us.
The routine for day 3 + 4 is:
Night day 2:
- From 18:30 to 22:00, sleeping a long stretch with 2 times waking up and need comforting. From 22:00 to 1:00, refused to go back to sleep. Slept from 1:30 to 4:00, then staying up until 06:00. Slept until 7:00.
Day 3:
- First A time: 3h. Nap at 10:00 till 13:00 (3h long. In hindsight, this was our mistake because the night was a nightmare).
- Second A time: ~2h45m-3h. Showed signs of tiredness but refused to nap. Finally took her out on the stroller at 16:30 and she napped for 45mins. Waking up at 17:15.
- Put on bed at 19:00 when showed sign of tiredness. Appeared to sleep for 10mins, then woke up and refused to go to sleep. Crying so hard that we needed to turn on the light. She looked wide awake. Put back to bed at 22:00. Slept for 1h, then started crying, screaming. Picked her up again until 1:00. Slept from 1:00 to 2:00 then hell broke loose. Crying, screaming crazily. Demanded to be walked around the house with the light turned on. Any other things and she would cry. She would stay up until 6am. A bit of a short sleep there until 7:00
Day 4:
- Morning after eating slept from 8:00 to 10. We don't know if we should call it a morning nap or the compensation for the night sleep.
- First A time: 3h. Nap for 2h
- Second A time: ~2:30m, looked tired but again refused to nap. Took her out and she napped for 1h. woke up at 14:40.
- Bedtime at 18:15.
- Currently crying and screaming as usual.
Some other notes:
- Pooping 3, 4 times a day now, even twice during the night (shortly after bedtime and one in the early hours)
- Her bottom is kind of red.
- We thought those are the signs of teething also coming up now too. Not sure.
We're so scared of the night now. And we're clueless. Night, please go away.
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At this point, if she were 'just' overtired, she should be able to go back to sleep if you APOP (accidental parenting on purpose). I would venture to say there's some level of pain involved here. Could be teething - I've not seen/heard of teething destroy sleep to quite such an extent before unless in combination with something else.
So I have a few questions:
Are you giving pain meds? If so, what and how often?
What are her poos like - texture, colour? Any crying when pooing? Any gas?
What has she been eating - any acidic fruits for example that may be burning her bottom? DS has been known to be in a lot of pain from acidic poo on his bottom and I've used a thick barrier of antiseptic nappy cream to help it heal and prevent further damage.
How is her weight gain?
I now wonder if part of this issue might be something called reflux - it can go unnoticed in the early months and get to its most severe point at about 4 months and stay there until treated. Do any of these symptoms ring any bells? Reflux 101 - General reflux information
Here are some tips for calming a refluxing baby - a lot of the tips work for gas and other tummy troubles as well tips for calming my refluxing LO
At the moment, I'd be doing whatever you can to get her to sleep - does she sleep in the car? Maybe you could take some more walks with her in the pram...
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Bec has said it all, but I totally agree re pain. Something is up, even developmental leaps don't cause this much sleep loss, or very OT :-*
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Hello becj86 and ZacsMumme, thanks so much for your reply. Here are our answers.
Are you giving pain meds? If so, what and how often?
--> Last week, we gave Camilia (a kind of syrup) for 3 days, twice a day. Also applied Osa gel on the gum. But didn't seem to help. We've started giving Viburcol (http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/asp/hee-2502000.asp) today (twice). Will continue tomorrow, twice a day.
What are her poos like - texture, colour? Any crying when pooing? Any gas?
--> The last 2 days kind of loose. It's sort of like puree. The color is similar to the food she eats. No crying when pooping. Sometimes she farts but generally no sign of frequent gas.
What has she been eating - any acidic fruits for example that may be burning her bottom? DS has been known to be in a lot of pain from acidic poo on his bottom and I've used a thick barrier of antiseptic nappy cream to help it heal and prevent further damage.
--> last 2 days: spinach and cauliflower in the morning. These two are new food to her. Lunch is broccoli, courgette, a bit of chicken. Tea-time food ~3pm is pear, banana, mango. All is cooked using pressure cooker. Dinner is cereal + milk)
How is her weight gain?
--> On Nov 21st (6 months 3 weeks), her weight is 6.2kg (5-7 percentile curve). She had been underweight at 6 months old and the doctor urged us to feed more. The height is ok (65.5cm)
I now wonder if part of this issue might be something called reflux - it can go unnoticed in the early months and get to its most severe point at about 4 months and stay there until treated. Do any of these symptoms ring any bells? Reflux 101 - General reflux information
---> She doens't have most of the symptoms as far as we can tell.
At the moment, I'd be doing whatever you can to get her to sleep - does she sleep in the car? Maybe you could take some more walks with her in the pram...
---> I think walking with her in the pram (is it the same as the stroller) during the night is kind of awkward, don't you think?
Maybe we'll try to call the doctor and see what's up with her? But this has been going on for a month now (well, not as severe as in the last days). And 3 weeks ago, the doctor didn't see anything weird.
Last update:
She woke up already 3,4 times now. The 1st two times, my wife breastfed her but she slept for only 15,30mins. Then we used PU/PD. She went back to sleep after 15mins and for 1h. We just did it again and she went back to sleep for 5mins.
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Quote (selected)
I now wonder if part of this issue might be something called reflux - it can go unnoticed in the early months and get to its most severe point at about 4 months and stay there until treated. Do any of these symptoms ring any bells? Reflux 101 - General reflux information
---> She doens't have most of the symptoms as far as we can tell.
These are symptoms that are associated - not every baby with reflux will have all of them, there are usually only 2-3-4 that parents tend to see at first and as time goes on and they watch more closely, they notice more, knowing what they're looking for.
Docs rarely think of reflux as their first thing to check when baby stops gaining weight so well or sleeps worse or becomes more unsettled.
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Hello again!
I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you cut out her dinner time solids. Also, no more spinach/broccoli - both are very gassy and spinach is very hard on little tummies... it's not actually recommended here in Canada until 10 months of age and only in very small amounts. The cereal at dinner is likely causing some tummy upset as she isn't getting a chance to rest her digestive system.
I would limit her to a few small portions of veg/fruit/chicken at breakfast/lunch (no more than about 2 ozs total for each meal). Breast milk is easier to digest and contains more fat/calories etc by volume than solids do.
This should help us rule out an overactive tummy...
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Hello,
Thanks for suggestion Bec. We'll look more closely at our DD to see if she has any of those symptoms.
I don't want to fill this thread with negativity anymore, so just to summarize last night by saying my wife broke down at 4am. And I became "internally" crazy for a sec. Life is tough. Before that we PU/PD, comforted, changed diaper, etc. She's fully awake. As soon as we planned to bring her to sleep (sitting on our laps, putting on bed), she started crying. She went to sleep at 5am till 7am.
But today seems quite good in terms of EASY. She suddenly went with the routine: 3h A time in the morning, napping for 2h. Then 2.5h A time in the afternoon and napping 1.5h. Woke up at 4pm. Great work for both of them! Bedtime at 19:00, and already up 1 time.
We're giving Viburcol so we'll try to stick with that for 2, 3 days. Then if it's not improving, we'll go ahead and cut her dinner time solids as Kara suggested. The only issue is the pediatrician told us to feed more solid so she can gain more weight.
We'll see the pediatrician on Monday. But to be honest, I feel more assured here with your kind support and advice. You guys know so much and more importantly, are so caring, and attentive to us. And you all do it for the happiness of other families without asking for anything. Your LOs and family are so blessed to be taken care of by people like you. Wish you all a nice weekend with your loved ones.
PS: By the way, do you have a list of suggested vegs/fruits/fish that are more easy on the little tummies, ~7 months? Thank you.
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Hugs, I'll be back but some good gentle foods are
Pumpkin
Pear (mixed together is good too)
Sweet potato
Apple (again mixed together is good too)
Salmon
Avocado
Here is a good site I've just gone to a page on it, but they have good options and advice http://www.homemade-baby-food-recipes.com/pureed-baby-food-recipes.html
Hugs to your wife, it's so tough and sleep deprivation is brutal.
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Loads of hugs..
Solids won't cause her to gain weight anymore than milk :) Though, you can boost her caloric intake easily with avocado - very good for babies and easy on that tummy.
I see you are still using herbal options for potential pain relief. Honestly, i would just jump to ibuprofen for a night and see what happens.... we know it works for pain - herbal can be hit and miss.
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How is today going? - what happened last night, when did she wake and for how long? X
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Hello,
Last night went surprisingly well for us. The best in a month actually. She got up at 20:00 for a 10mins comforting. Again at about 20:40. Then, this is the wonderful part, she went all the way through until 04:30. We had the best sleep ever since we can remember. It just felt so good. Then she's up from 4:30 to 5:45 (tried to comfort at first for 30mins but she looked awake so we changed diaper then breastfeed). She went back to sleep from 5:45 till 8:40.
We don't want to get over-excited about that but it's definitely a sign of improvement. Because the day had gone well with the routine as I said (the A times are 3h in the morning, 2.5h afternoon, and 3h evening respectively). Plus, we gave Viburcol for 2 days now. The issue is we're not sure which brought about the improvement. Maybe both.
The routine today has been solid too: 3h A, nap for 1h, 2.20 A time, nap for 1.5h, finally 3h A time before bed. Already up once but let's cross our fingers. :)
Thanks so much for all of your advice. Today we cut off the solid at dinner time, giving her only 30g cereal, then just a bit of bottle and breastfeed (she didn't like the milk that much apparently). Not sure if that's enough for nighttime. But we'll see.
Bisous et bon weekend a toute et a tout (as we all say here). We'll keep updating our progress.
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Merci :) Bon weekend!
Glad things are getting better. Those long stretches are really nice :)
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Wonderful, even if its a rough one tonight you know she can do it YK, it's a great step for her and hopefully your DW and you got some sleep yourselves!
Let us know how things go, it can take a week or two sometimes for things to get into a routine x
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Wonderful!
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I forgot to add.....GO TO BED EARLY TOO and catch up on that sleep debt of yours too (and DW as well!) :-*
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Yah! Hopefully you are moving in the right direction! Its sooo nice when you get that long stretch. The other night I went to bed when my 2 went down. It did me the world of good. I would highly recommend it.
Our boy is still waking in the night for short spats, I thought it would gradually go away but it isnt...its driving us mad. He has improved though, but there is a way to go. I will be popping in to see how you guys are doing.
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Hello all,
Thanks for your messages. Really encouraging to have support.
The last two nights were kind of mixed up. The night before yesterday, it was business as usual for us, routine NWs from 19:00 till 20:30 (every 30mins). Then at 20:30, she slept until 22:30. But then up at 22:30 for 2h playing. Sleeping back again at 0:30 till 6:30am after a Dafalgan suppositoire (on top of 2 homeopathy Viburcol during the day).
Last night, a couple of NWs with us coming in to comfort and changing diaper from 19:00 to 21:00, sleeping for 1h from 21:00 to 22:00. Up for 2h. We were too tired and brought her to our bed, managed to get her sleep from 0:30 till 7:00 but with 2-3 times breastfeeding.
We went to her pediatrician today and some conclusions are:
- The weight gain is alarming (6.2kg at 7months and a week). It means she didn't gain any weight for the last 3 weeks. Well, 25g. How could she gain any when she just keeps staying up like this all night?
- No sign of teething
- The doctor suspected either hunger or wakings due to parents. We ruled out hunger. So she advised us to use Controlled Crying because she suspected our DD is used to waking up just to play with us.
Do you have any thoughts on this? Should we start doing CC again? Honestly we don't have any other choice. We seriously tried everything. Co-sleeping only works some of the time for us. What should we be doing now? When will those concern go away for us? I just can't focus on work anymore and literally become a heavy coffee drinker. And no question, my DW is so exhausted and trapped at home all day long. :(
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Hugs...I'm confused though, how is hunger ruled out when she isn't gaining ???
I mean my DS was a terrible refluxer and never slept but gained a ton of weight through comfort feeding... I'm quite alarmed at the peds conclusion really :(
CC is not supported here at BW, Tracy believed as do we, leaving a baby to cry alone, or for periods of time we determine breaks trust. I'm going to get some more eyes on this thread for you to see what ideas people have for those NW :-*
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I'm so sorry you're having a tough time with everything at the moment, but please don't go down the route of CC. It is not something we support in any way, shape or form as it breaks the trust that your LO has in you, and given you think she may have some separation anxiety, it is just about the worst possible thing to do because she's scared you won't come back, and you don't. Speaking as someone who works in the field, paediatricians often recommend CC because quite honestly, they are not trained in and are not aware of gentler methods. I too am also concerned about concluding that she is not hungry given there are significant issues with weight gain, and as Bec and Sara have suggested, would suspect some pain/discomfort with that many wakings.
I totally agree with the routine advice you have been given so far, and also the fact that the frequent wakings soon after bedtime are at least in part OT related. If her naps are less than ideal, I would suggest you try out a super early bedtime to give her the opportunity to catch up a little. I have put my DD to bed as early as 5.30pm on awful nap days and have always been glad when I have.
As a fresh pair of eyes, can I just ask a few questions? (Sorry the thread is a little long to catch up on)
Is your DD going to sleep independently for naps and bedtime at the moment?
Have you ever used shh pat or PUPD consistently for a good week or more?
How many milk feeds is she having per 24h? And how much if you are using bottles?
Have you, or are you willing to try any conventional pain relief medications to see if they help?
(((Hugs))) I really hope we can get to the bottom of this for you x
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Hunger was ruled out because we said she would wake up even 30mins after bedtime (~45mins after dinner, even big dinner). And when we turned on the light, she looks awake and seems happy, rather than showing any sign of hunger. Right now, my wife brought her on our bed and breastfeeding but she just use it as a prop rather than actually eating anything. The ped said that we should give her more food, as much as we can and as long as our LO agrees to take.
We read Tracy's book and totally understand the trust issue as well as using props. That's why I came on here to ask for your opinions before going back to CC again. We had tried hard and used PU/PD but the LO would go to sleep only to wake up 30 mins, 1h, or even 15mins later. As for prop, we also tried hard not to use any, but it got to the point where we just couldn't hold off anymore. We would turn on the light, giving her dummy, playing with her, bringing her to our bed, walking her around.
Maybe these things just make the nights more appealing to her now?
BUT, now, she's currently on bed with us and still refusing to sleep. Isn't she supposed to feel good with us and should sleep? We really don't know what to do. She shows sign of tiredness, but don't want to get down.
Absolutely no idea! :(
Update: I've seen your question jessmum46. Here are our answers.
Is your DD going to sleep independently for naps and bedtime at the moment?
For naps, most of the time yes. Bedtime is on and off. A week into applying EASY (more than a month ago), definitely yes. Put her to bed and away she went. Not anymore now. Some days yes, some days no (with the same routine). Since streching A times (2 weeks ago), it is more yes than no.
Have you ever used shh pat or PUPD consistently for a good week or more?
Yes, I'd say. First, we only used shh/pat. It worked in the sense that it got her back to sleep. But over the course of a few days since starting, it no longer worked. As for PUPD, we didn't use it at the beginning but when shh/pat failed, we did use it vigorously. But as I said, she would sleep only 30mins or 1h or 2h before getting up again. We did it again and the same thing happened. Or some nights, PUPD worked after 15minns, the next time in the same night only worked after 1h or 2h of PUPD. For nearly a week I believe. And it's just getting worse and worse. So we had to turn on the light, starting using props and so on.
The real problem during the PUPD period actually was that her cry was kind of a mantra cry. We didn't pick her up, but instead let her cry, and sometimes comforted her using words. Then she slept. No need for PUPD then. But the situation was worsening over a week, then we stopped.
How many milk feeds is she having per 24h? And how much if you are using bottles?
My DW is breastfeeding. But not much now. Only in the morning and evening before bed. About 10-15mins. Occasionally during lunch too. It seems like our DD is full after all those solids.
Have you, or are you willing to try any conventional pain relief medications to see if they help?
We used Osa gel and Camillia when suspecting teething for 3 days, but no improvement so we stopped. The last 3 days, we're giving her 2 homeopathy Viburcol suppositories per day. The last 2 nights, one Dafalgan suppository before bed or midnight each.
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Ok - waking 30 mins after bedtime is a classic sign of OT, and of course you are right that she wouldn't be hungry so soon after dinner. That's not to say that she isn't hungry later in the night though? It's perfectly possible that she is waking for different reasons at different points in the same night. To give you an example, when DD was that age or slightly younger, she would wake 30mins to an hour after bedtime if she was OT, and sometimes need reassurance to resettle. I wouldn't have dreamed of feeding her at that point, quite logically because she ate an hour ago. But when she woke at 3/4am, I would feed her straight away as it had been well over 4h since a feed (would expect a breastfed baby to go the same or slightly longer between feeds at night as during the day). So same night, different reasons for waking.
I notice you said you put on the light when she wakes? I would suggest that once she is in bed for the night, you should keep the lights off totally, keep interaction to a minimum, don't say anything to her at all except for perhaps "it's time for sleep" or something similar. Keep your voice low and boring. If you put the lights on, get her up, bring her to your bed and play, why wouldn't she want to stay awake? I know that it's SO hard when you are exhausted and sleep deprived, but she needs a clear message that it is night time and you need a clear plan of action for when those night wakings happen.
Will wait for your answers and the then take it from there :)
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How many milk feeds is she having per 24h? And how much if you are using bottles?
My DW is breastfeeding. But not much now. Only in the morning and evening before bed. About 10-15mins. Occasionally during lunch too. It seems like our DD is full after all those solids.
At 7 months milk should be the most important part of your LOs diet. The WHO recommend at least 4 BFs per day and at thsi age most BF babies are doing 4 day time BFs and a DF. BM contains many more calories (and the right balance of nutrients) than solids you'd be given. So while solids may fill her up it will not sustain her. I think I would back right back off solids and get milk intake up again as truly if she's only having 2.5 small BFs a day then truly she could be wakening in hunger and has got used to snacking so is wanting to feed more often.
Does that make sense?
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Hey there,
I'm sorry things are so tough for you at the moment. We went through a really bad patch when my DS would not sleep without screaming for 20 minutes first, no matter what I did - it was horrible.
Can I suggest, for day sleeps, that you and your wife use the pram or car to get her off, just so you can get a consistent routine going? At night you may have to do other things, but it would start you from a good place. I'm also suggesting this because it was how my DS learned to go to sleep by himself. I used to always be out for his first nap, and I think without this we would not have made the progress we did.
Will be back to check on you! Hang in there!
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Totally agree with Shiv - at 7 months solids are very much for fun as they have far fewer calories than the milk. At that age we did BF at wake up, after each nap and bedtime, and also had a 4am ish feed until nearly 8 months. We would normally suggest that you offer solids an hour after milk to ensure that the solids aren't robbing the milk intake.
I think if you concentrate on getting at least four good milk feeds into her during the day, and try to see solids as a bonus that may help you all a lot. At night, given that weight gain is a big concern, I would either add in a dream feed or agree a time period e.g. 5h that if she wakes after that time, you feed her straight away before resettling. If she wakes before that time, you remain consistent with lights off, no interaction and use shh/pat or PUPD to resettle her all the way to sleep, even if it takes you past the agreed time cutoff. You can then feed the next time she wakes.
If your DW is only feeding twice a day at the moment you may need to supplement for the extra milk feeds with formula while she works on increasing her supply. I will ask for some breast feeding advice for you to help with doing that :)
You say you stopped using PUPD because she woke up again after a short time. But was she falling asleep in her crib when you did it? It sounds like you actually had great success with it if that's the case - the waking up shortly after settling could well have been related to routine - PUPD isn't a magic way of making babies sleep if the routine is wrong. IIWY I'd work on getting her onto an age appropriate routine as Sara and Bec have been advising you, and go back to PUPD for BT and night wakings. If she wakes again after an hour or so, you PUPD again and do the same for all night wakings except when you are going to feed (as above).
What do you think?
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If your DW is only feeding twice a day at the moment you may need to supplement for the extra milk feeds with formula while she works on increasing her supply. I will ask for some breast feeding advice for you to help with doing that
Personally I think giving formula will prolong the issue as LO will not help your DWs supply to get what she needs. I'd just offer at the times she should be feeding and then pump after for 10-15 minutes. Feed more often without pumping if needed. In a few days supply should pick up. I had to cut way back on solids when DD2 was 8 months as she was taking way too much solids and milk intake had dramatically decreased. I just upped the milk feeds for a week with very little solids and in a week we were back to normal and then very gradually offered the solids again.
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Good point Shiv :) Apologies dlhson - I didn't mean to confuse and certainly wasn't suggesting to supplement for an extended period. Feeding more frequently will definitely help to up your DWs supply :)
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We owe you guys a huge ocean of hugs and thanks and whatever it is!!!!
2, 3 months waking up hundreds of times in the night just takes our brains off us. We will NOT go back to Controlled crying and will apply your advices right away.
Will get back tomorrow after getting some short sleeps before the storm tonight!
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Hope you guys get some sleep. I know how drraining sleep deprivation can be x
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(((Hugs))) for tonight :)
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Hugs :-*
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Hello all,
So it's been 2 nights since we started PUPD again for the NWs. I definitely think stretching A times, BF more, together with PUPD is the way to go. We woke up on average only 3 times and she slept for longer stretches the later part of the nights. How could we possibly have thought about CC?
But there are still a few details to work out:
1- 2 nights ago, only 15 mins of PUPD is enough to get her to sleep from 20:15 to 01:45. But last night, at 22:15, we needed 2h15mins of PUPD. She slept for 15mins then up again so my DW bf her and she slept until 06:30. And today (still counting), she needed 45mins of PUPD from 19:15 to 20:00. What's the reason for this variation in time?
2- She deliberately cries loud to make us pick her up. As soon as she's on my DW's shoulder, she's quiet right away. And the moment we indended to put her down, she starts again. She doesn't seem to be tired (last night). The crying just escalated. At the 2h mark, my wife was so exhausted and I jumped in but she didn't like me. Thankfully, at the 2.5h mark, she slept when our energy tanks were totally empty. Can you tell us what's the maximum time of doing PUPD (Tracy said in the book about 100 times but I don't know how long it lasted). Also, what's the best way to do it?
3- The last 2 days, my DW tried to bf her more, but she didn't eat so much (only about 5-10mins each time). After that, it's very difficult to give her the solid foods (we give it 1h later). She ate more solid the previous days (well, of course it makes sense with only 2.5 times of breastfeeding/day). Is there anyway to make her eat more breastmilk, or formula? If possible, we can give formula because we can control how much she consumes/day. Her weight is already too low now.
The EASY routines for the last 2 days are:
10/12 (the day when we went to the pediatrician. Learn about her weight problem. And be told to use CC. Got your advice at night about using PUPD instead of CC)
07:00: wakeup, 60ml of formula, 20ml of vegs
10:00: nap 1 for 1.5h
11:30: 120ml of fish + califlower
14:00: nap 2 for 45mins
14:45: went to the ped
16:00: 30ml of mango
17:00: bath
17:45: 140 ml of cereal, 10ml of mango
18:30: bed.
19:30: up. We brought to our bed, BF but just suck it for fun. then crying for 30mins.
20:15: After getting your advice, we used PUPD. Only 15mins and there she slept.
01:45: Up, BF and slept until 07:15!!!
11/12 (The plan come up from your advice: Try to up breastfeeding, cut back on solid, use PUPD, and BF at night if up after 4h since last feed)
07:00: wakeup, only 3mins of breastfeeding, so we give 90ml of formula, 10ml of vegs
09:30: nap 1 (no crying) for 1h
10:30: 3mins of BF, refuse formula, 150ml of fish+califlower
12:30: nap 2 (no crying) for 1h
14:00: 65g yogurt
16:00: nap 3 (on stroller) for 50mins
17:00: 20ml of cereal
18:30: bath + 15mins of BF
19:30: put down to bed but cry, PUPD 10mins.
22:15: cried, PUPD 2h and 15mins. The volume escalated. Stopped as soon as we picked up. Slept at 0:30 for 15mins. Then up again. So we BF (These 3h were tough. We were close to breaking down in tears again due to exhaustion. But thankfully she slept at the 2.30 mark before up 15mins later and we BF.)
01:00: Slept until 6:30.
12/12 (today, try to up breastfeeding, but she doesn't eat much, just kind of on and off, and also refuses solid).
06:30: wakeup, only 10mins of BF
07:30: 120 ml of cereal
09:30: nap 1 for 2h
11:30: bf for 3mins, then 60ml of formula, then only 10g of solid vegs
14:55: nap 2 for 45mins on the stroller
15:35: wakeup
16:00: BF for 10mins, then 20ml of mango, BF for 10mins.
17:00: bath, then 10mins of BF, 20ml of saumon + sweet potato, 5mins of BF
18:10: put to bed, cried 5mins then slept.
19:15: up, cried. We PUPD for 45mins. Now sleeping.
Please tell us how we can improve on this routine? It's definitely a sign of improvement the last 2 nights or so. Thank you very much for all this support and knowledge! We're looking forward to your advice and sort this out asap. We just don't have much energy left anymore. :)
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10mins at the breast can be a full feed - even 5mins can, if baby is efficient. Is she now BFing 4x during the day? One or two days of BFing more may not be enough to get her sleeping without needing a feed or two, your DW's supply may need increasing, so give it a good few days as you would a growth spurt, because that's essentially what you're wanting your DW's body to experience, extra feeding from baby will increase supply but it takes time. Its not a bad thing that she's taking less solids after she's had her milk - it means she's eating a good amount of milk ;)
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Just to echo what Bec has said - my DD can be done a whole feed in 4-5 mins :)
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Hi there, just jumping in to offer some support with PUPD. :) I admit I haven't read the whole thread, just about the last page or so, so if I repeat something or miss something, please forgive me.
What's the reason for this variation in time?
I think what you're experiencing is very normal. There can be quite a variation in the time it takes to resettle the first few days of using any sleep training technique. That being said, I do think there are some routine issues to check out as well. The night you did the 2.5hr session, she had had three naps each totaling about an hour. While that amount of day sleep is good for a 7mo old, having it spread that way through the day might have made it tougher for her to settle when she woke and you got more of a fight. But, it could have just been her protesting as well. :-\ I'm so glad you got her to sleep before feeding though, that was a victory in itself. Good job for not giving up! :).
It sounds like you've been working on routine with some of these lovely ladies and it looks like 3hr A time suits her pretty well from the pattern I see in just the last few days. I'd stick as much to that as possible while you're doing PUPD. I also wonder if you did the pm nap in her crib rather than in the stroller, she might start sleeping a more full nap for you and be less OT at BT. I'm all for APOPing in the stroller when needed, but often at this age LOs will only sleep one full sleep cycle in the stroller and that won't really help your cause, unless she's had short naps other times in the day and you just have to get something more. Are you using PUPD at nap time as well? The more you use it to get her to sleep, the quicker she will start to settle herself both at the beginning of sleep time and when she wakes at night.
2- She deliberately cries loud to make us pick her up. As soon as she's on my DW's shoulder, she's quiet right away. And the moment we indended to put her down, she starts again. She doesn't seem to be tired (last night). The crying just escalated. At the 2h mark, my wife was so exhausted and I jumped in but she didn't like me. Thankfully, at the 2.5h mark, she slept when our energy tanks were totally empty. Can you tell us what's the maximum time of doing PUPD (Tracy said in the book about 100 times but I don't know how long it lasted). Also, what's the best way to do it?
This sounds to me like she might be getting a little too comfy upon the PU. At this age, when you pick up you really don't hold for long. You will basically say your sleep phrase and then put her right back down and try to settle her in the crib. Tracy did recommend that one parent should carry a PUPD session through to the end as switching in the middle can be confusing and stimulating for the LO, but thankfully that wasn't your experience that night, just something to be aware of. As for a maximum time, at BT and during a NW, there isn't one. You go until they fall back to sleep. At nap times, we recommend that you try for 45min, take a 15-20min break if she's not close to sleep, and then try again until the end of nap time.
I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have other questions and I'll try to answer them. You are doing a really great job, it's tough work for sure, but you will feel really good about it all once you are all sleeping better. (((Hugs)))
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Hello,
I think we're on the right track eventually after such a long time. Only about 3 times waking up, the longest was 2h. This is a big achievement for us three. Thanks a lot for your help.
Here's the routine for the last 2 days.
12/12 (Very good day, up only twice at night. During the day, we tried to up breastfeeding, but she didn't eat much, just kind of sucking casually, not so actively, and also refuses solid).
06:30: wakeup, only 10mins of BF
07:30: 120 ml of cereal
09:30: nap 1 for 2h
11:30: bf for 3mins, then 60ml of formula, then only 10g of solid vegs
14:55: nap 2 for 45mins on the stroller
15:35: wakeup
16:00: BF for 10mins, then 20ml of mango, BF for 10mins.
17:00: bath, then 10mins of BF, 20ml of saumon + sweet potato, 5mins of BF
18:10: put to bed, cried 5mins then slept.
19:15: up, cried. slept after PUPD for 45mins.
00:30: up, breastfed, slept again
05:30: up for the day.
13/12 (Up too early, Good routine during the day but Not so good night)
05:30: wakeup, 5mins of BF
06:00: 20ml salmon + sweetpotato and 20ml of formula
08:30: nap 1 for 2h
10:30: up, BF 5mins, 10ml cereal, 40ml formula
12:50: nap 2 for 1.5h
14:45: up, BF 2mins, 30ml banana, 20ml formula
18:10: put to bed, slept
19:15: up, slept after 20mins of PUPD
02:00: up, BF
03:00: up, 45mins of PUPD
05:30: up for the day
14/12 (Up too early, messed-up routine, overtired and undertired?)
05:30: wakeup, BF 2mins, 30ml salmon + sweet potato, 20ml formula, BF 5mins
07:45: nap 1 (after only 2h15mins since she looked so tired.)
09:00: up, went to the sleeping psychologist
11:30: nap 2, sleeping in the stroller in the doctor's office
12:00: up, BF 2mins
14:00: BF 2mins, 80ml formula
14:30: put to crib for nap but cried 15mins, brought on the stroller, nap 3 for 2h
16:45: up
17:30: 60ml cereal, 20ml formula
18:45: put to bed but cried hard, comforting, putting DW's head next to hers
19:45: slept after 1h of comforting
20:35: up, slept after comforting
(counting)
Now, we do have a few questions still.
1- When the afternoon nap didn't last long (~45mins) or when it was too early in the day, we put her to bed at night earlier to avoid OT (e.g. on 12/12 and 13/12). However, this led her to wake up for the day too early, at 5:30 in the morning. (maybe she had enough of night sleep?) What should we do then? Should we just let her get up (as we did the last 3 days), or should we do PUPD to keep her on bed until morning?
2- She's not actively sucking breast, and also not eating solid. We know that it might take a few days for DW's body to get up to speed, but we're also worrying about the weight. Can you tell us if the amount of food in the last 3 days is enough?
3- Today, 14/12, we had to go to the sleeping psychologist (we booked this appointment a couple of weeks ago before getting helpful advice from BWs) so the day is messed up. Especially, the 3rd nap in the afternoon lasted until 16:45. So is it correct that when put to bed, the LO cried because she's UT? Then she's up 45mins later because she's OT of the long day? I've learned to have this educated guess after reading so much from this forum :)
4- Katie80, you said "While that amount of day sleep is good for a 7mo old, having it spread that way through the day might have made it tougher for her to settle when she woke and you got more of a fight. But, it could have just been her protesting as well.". Can you elaborate a bit as to why having the naps spread out make it tougher for LO to settle?
We went to the sleeping pyschologist today, but again, I don't learn any new things that I haven't found here with your help. She doesn't know about Tracy's method, but she also suggests a mild approach (walking in and out to comfort) and told us to BF at night if 4h passed from the last feed.
Thanks again and hope to hear from you soon. Take care! Wish you and your family a super happy weekend! It's snowing here and we can't go skiing because of this cute, smily but just-not-sleeping-well baby :)
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2- She's not actively sucking breast, and also not eating solid. We know that it might take a few days for DW's body to get up to speed, but we're also worrying about the weight. Can you tell us if the amount of food in the last 3 days is enough?
She doesn't actually need food... BM and formula are enough for her at this age... solids are just for extra fun. I do see that you are intermixing offering though... solids with BF/formula... I would stop this as it may effect what she takes from the breast. Babies will often hold out for solids at this age ;) You want to do a BF, then solids an hour later... an ounce or two is enough in terms of solids at this age... and twice a day would be plenty. The majority of her nutrition should be from milk - not solids. Too much solid food will cause her to wake at night for milk as she needs the balanced nutrition it provides. Also, stick to solids that aren't going to "fill her up" too much... lots of veggies/fruits with a bit of carbs/protein is fine.
I also do wonder if your wife's supply is suffering given that you are still offering a fair amount of formula. Honestly, the 20 mls of top up is a very small amount... I would skip that and offer the breast a touch sooner to build supply.
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1- When the afternoon nap didn't last long (~45mins) or when it was too early in the day, we put her to bed at night earlier to avoid OT (e.g. on 12/12 and 13/12). However, this led her to wake up for the day too early, at 5:30 in the morning. (maybe she had enough of night sleep?) What should we do then? Should we just let her get up (as we did the last 3 days), or should we do PUPD to keep her on bed until morning?
Have you tried to feed her like a NW, rather than the first feed of the day and put her back down right after? It is going to be a tough time to try PUPD to resettle her as she's had about 10.5hr of sleep, but it is on the low side. I think getting your routine ironed out should help this as well.
I agree completely with Kara on question 2. :)
3- Today, 14/12, we had to go to the sleeping psychologist (we booked this appointment a couple of weeks ago before getting helpful advice from BWs) so the day is messed up. Especially, the 3rd nap in the afternoon lasted until 16:45. So is it correct that when put to bed, the LO cried because she's UT? Then she's up 45mins later because she's OT of the long day? I've learned to have this educated guess after reading so much from this forum :)
Yes, I think that is probably a fair assessment. Sometimes you just have to do your best on those messed up days though and that's what you did.
4- Katie80, you said "While that amount of day sleep is good for a 7mo old, having it spread that way through the day might have made it tougher for her to settle when she woke and you got more of a fight. But, it could have just been her protesting as well.". Can you elaborate a bit as to why having the naps spread out make it tougher for LO to settle?
I think this is similar to question 3. At 7-8 mo, LOs do best with two solid sleeps a day and good A time spread between them. So, she had 3hr of nap time that day, but because it was spread out in smaller chunks (that were still basically an hour long), she might not have had the drive to keep sleeping when she woke up shortly after BT. Similar to yesterday, when she had the late 2hr nap.
It sounds like things are progressing well. I'm sure you'll be back on the slopes quicker than you think! ;)
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Hello all,
It's been 2 weeks since our last update. It's been so busy with the year-end schedule and everything. But most importantly, we want to hold it on for some time before FINALLY DECLARING A VICTORY!!!
WE'VE GOT IT
Well, of course that is for now, since I think teething is definitely coming around soon. But the last 10 days have been by far the best nights we've ever had since a LONG LONG time. On Xmas day, she gave us the best gift ever by waking up only 4 times, AND going straight back to sleep after only 5 mins of comforting (putting our hand on her back and shushed). This pattern went on until New Year Eve, when she gave us an even more wonderful gift, starting passing the night with only 2 times up for BF!!!
HOW DID WE GET THERE: THE FIRST LAP
Definitely not easy. We were seeing the pediatrician once a week for 3 weeks straight since her weight is a big concern. Unsurprisingly, the peds urged us to give more solid food and told us to sacrifice the nights. Meanwhile, the sleeping psychologists told us to use the walkin/walkout method.
But we were keen on using the plans sketched out here with your help:
- Working on an appropriate A times
- BF more. This took a few days for DW's supply to be back.
- solid is important for her weight but secondary.
- Get rid of the formula top-up
- Be consistent with PUPD
Now these got us some good results reported in my last post. But the nights were still very heavy for us since we got some good nights (i.e. 3, 4 NWs with varying length, some a few mins, some a couple of hours) MIXED with some bad nights (i.e. 5, 6 NWs, about 2 of which on the longer side of length). And the TIMING for A time and bedtime was not easy at all. We counted to the minutes. But even on a good routined day, there were still NWs, as early as 30mins into the night.
The only very positive thing is that DD still gained 200g despite us decreasing the solids. So that gave us more confidence to stick to our plan (wrt decreasing solids).
HOW DID WE GET THERE: STRETCHING EVEN MORE A TIME AND THE SHUSH/PAT REDISCOVERED
On 21 Dec, looking back at our logs, we saw that she had 1h10mins nap in the morning. This clue, together with the early wake-up for the day (~5:30, 5:45), made us decide to stretch her A time even more. She had been at 3h A time this week, so we pushed it to 3h15, 3h20, then 3h30. This seemed to eliminate the early wakeup for the day, but not the other NWs.
On Xmas night, at 22:45, my wife was exhausted and decided to leave the room after 1.5h PUPD (she had been up 4 times earlier, ~10mins each). So I jumped in. Normally DD didn't like my PUPD (she stops crying as soon as she's on my DW's back, not mine), so I said to myself, let me do shush/pat. This had mixed results before but there was no more option for me. I tried to pat her on the back by turning her on her side. She didn't like it and cried even louder. So I decided to just put my hand under her back while shushing. This SURPRISINGLY WORKED like a charm. She kept silence and after some struggling went back to sleep on her own after 45mins. I did it once again at 05:45 and it STILL WORKED!!!
No need to say, we applied this method the next night (25/12). She went back to sleep right away after just about 5 mins for every NWs. Over the next few days, she learned to go back to sleep even with only the shushing (~2 mins). Even she was still up ~4 times / night, they were mostly very brief. WHAT A RELIEF!
THE VICTORY LAP
We tried to hold ourself back and not get over excited during these days. But on New Year Eve, she passed the night with only 2 times waking up for BF (at 0:00 and 5:00). Even when the firecrackers were all over the place, no crying whatsoever.
The last 2 days, even when she didn't have a great routine during the day (short nap in the morning or afternoon, or too long A time before bed, ~3h), she would still make it at least till 23:00.
THE CURRENT ROUTINE
06:00: up
08:00: solid (~20ml)
09:00: BF
09:30: nap 1 for 1.5h (1st A time: 3h30)
11:00: up
12:30: solid (~100ml)
13:30: BF
13:45: nap 2 for 30mins, 1h or 1.5h (2nd A time: 2h45)
16:00: solid (~20ml)
17:00: bath, BF
17:45: bed (3rd A time: 3h)
22:00/23:00/24:00: up, fussing, BF, back to sleep
03:30/04:00/05:00: up, fussing, BF, back to sleep
WHAT'S NEXT
Now, we're definitely happy with what we and our DD achieved so far. But we're not sure whether the night BFs are a good thing to do? My DW doesn't mind getting up twice a night for 15mins. And we need to bring DD's weight back to track so that's why we still gave solids (but we just give up to a limit).
Can you tell us if we should keep on this routine? or maybe we should cut off those BFs and do it in daytime instead?
HOPE FOR EVERYBODY
To every moms and dads out here: For 2 months, we were literally crazy and couldn't function properly. Every night was a timed bomb waiting to be fired. Even when we started working on our plan, things still didn't improve the way we wanted them to be.
BUT, HANG IN THERE. Keep on asking the lovely ladies here, keeping a detailed log of the timing and everything your LOs (and you) do, reflect on it and you'll see potential solutions.
It'll all be OVER one day!!! And you'll be over the moon seeing our LOs smiling, playing, learning new tricks during the day, and sleeping through the night!!!
I know it, because we've been through it!!!
Good luck and take care!!!
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Congrats!!!
I do see that you are doing solids, then BF an hour later... really, this should be the other way around. Milk first until much closer to her first birthday ;) She will get more from the milk and if she doesn't get enough to meet all her needs, she will wake at night for it. As for weaning the NFs, I would make an attempt now for sure. Start by reducing the amount of time that she nurses for the second feed (since it will interfere with her taking a good feed as soon as she wakes for the day). First night or two, just let her nurse as normal to find out how long she BFs. Reduce that time by a minute or two every couple of days... this should leave her more hungry for a BF as soon as she wakes in the morning.
Hope this helps!
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Wow I just want to say WELL DONE! It's so hard sleep training and tiring, and sometimes such a slow process. You and your wife are such a great team :-*
I had a tear in my eye reading your wonderful post : ) happy new year!
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Well done all of you!! ;D What a great update to read! You are true Baby Whisperers, finding the perfect technique to calm your LO. Keep up the good work!
And ditto to all that Kara said, re: the feeds. :)
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I just want to say what a wonderful father and husband you are. Your wife is very lucky to have such a supportive and proactive person by her side. Well done and I'm so glad things are improving for you. Enjoy those zzzz's!
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Hello all,
Thanks everyone for your support and encouragement. Unfortunately, we've still got work to do :(
The night I posted the "we've got it" message, it was back again. And it's been going on for 3 weeks now. What else can we say but disappointed? The positive thing is it's less bad :)
THE "WORKING" ROUTINE:
For 10 days around Xmas, the following routine was working for us (only some brief fussings at night).
6:00: Wake
7:00: Solid1
8:00: BF1
9:15-9:30 (A time = 3h15-3h30): Nap1 for 1.5h
12:00: Solid2
13:00: BF2
14ish (A time = ~2h45-3h): Nap2 for ~1h15, 1h30
15:30: BF3 and/or Solid
17:15: Bath
17:30: A bit of solid (if no solid at 15:30) and BF3/4
18:00: Sleep
21, 22, 23 or 24:00: BF5
01, 03 or 05:00: BF6
06:00: up.
But it no longer worked starting that night (hmm, I said we didn't want to get too excited, for a reason).
The next few days, following your advice from before, we tried to switch the BF and Solid time, giving BF 1h or 1.5h before solid. But it didn't work out. Hit and miss really for 3 weeks now.
THE CURRENT ONE
Now, she is on 2/3 solids a day with 3-4 breastfeeds/daytime and 1-3 bfs/night.
This is our routine:
6:00: Wake
7:30: Solid1 (~50g, some days skips this)
9:30: BF1. Sleeping on breast (new)
9:45: Nap1 (A time = 3h45) for ~1h10 or 1h20mins.
12:00: Solid 2 (~70g)
13:45-14ish: BF2. Sleeping on breast (new). Nap 2 for 30-45mins. (even though we tried all these A times = 2h45, 3h00, 3h15, we can't extend it).
16:00: Solid 3 (~30g)
17:00: Bath
18:00: BF3. Sleeping on breast (as always for 2 months).
18:30-21:00: Up ~ 2 times, back to sleep after ~5-10mins.
~23, 24:00: BF4
~2:30, 3, 4, 5:00: Fussing, BF5
04:30, 05:00: Some days fussing and crying for 1.5h, then up for the day. Or even a BF6 when we can't get her to sleep (with mixed results)
The problems we currently have are:
1) Wakes after 30, 45mins into Bedtime, and a couple more time from 18:00 till 21:00.
2) Some extended NWs at around 3:00 or 4:00 that last for ~1h or 1.5h. Some days she's back to sleep after BF, some days fussing for ~1h then sleep, some days fussing until ~5:30 and we let her out.
2b) We tried to cut off the BF5 and BF6 (~2,3,4,5) as it prevents us from giving an early feed first thing in the morning. But not feeding, or even reduce the time for feeding would irritate her so much that she wouldn't get back to sleep after.
On days when we successfully skip it, she still wouldn't take the early feed after wake up. We try again every 30mins without success until 9ish when she takes it and... naps on the breast. What should we do then?
3) We can't manage to get an afternoon nap longer than 45mins anymore for 2 weeks now. The morning nap still works (sleeping on breast) after A time = 3h45mins. But for the afternoon, we tried different A time (2h30, 2h45, 3h, 3h15) to no avail.
Maybe it's time for a 2-1 transition? or should we extend the 2nd A time to 3h45mins too?
4) For the last week, a bad pattern has emerged. My DW has to BF to get her down now for the naps. It was not like this before.
Also, the bedtime has always been sleeping on the breast for 2 months. So we'd like to fix all those up.
Our plan is to finished the feeding 30mins before BT. Then sit with her calmly on the couch for 10mins. Then putting her to bed with the lights still on. Reading, singing lullaby for 10mins. Then turn off the lights and go away even if she's still fully awake.
We tried it today but she cries so much so thought we'd ask for your opinions. Is it time to do this? If she cries when we leave, what should we do? (shush/pat? PUPD didn't seem to suit us very well).
I was wondering if we can use any of these techniques: Teaching independent sleep - methods
5) We discussed and thought it's probably time to wean LO off BF gradually. My DW will keep BFding her 1 (or 2) time/day. We'd like her to be a bit more independent so we can schedule daycare and my DW can think about going back to work. Part of it is also because we never know how much she eats and during the night, that's really frustrating.
We plan to start the midday and evening feed by a bottle, and top it up with breastmilk.
What would your advice be for us please? Do you know why she wakes like this during the night? the early NWs? The afternoon nap? The sleeping on breast? Is now the ideal time for weaning?
I would appreciate some help in this.
Some notes:
-She's 8.5mo now. 71cm, and only 6.6kg.
-She's not teething yet.
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I'm hoping you'll get some more experienced eyes on this and can't answer everything for you - but the thing that stands out for me is that she's not having a feed when she first wakes in the morning. Is there a reason for this? It should help her take in more calories and possibly less solids for breakfast.
My guy is nearly five now so my memory is sketchy, but I think we started off scheduling breast feeds at what could be regarded as morning and afternoon snack time, plus first thing in the morning and last thing at night. The 'snack time' feeds could then be replaced by a solid snack plus a soft spout cup of milk and that made them relatively easy to drop.
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Hello Michaeljacknnugg,
Thanks for your answer.
We can't manage to have that feed right after wakeup even though we would love and we tried so much.
We suppose it's because the night feed at 3, 4 or 5am intervenes with it. So we tried to cut off them (BF5 and BF6). But not feeding at that time, or even reduce the time for feeding would irritate her so much that she wouldn't get back to sleep after.
On days when we successfully skip it, she still wouldn't take the early feed after wake up. We try again every 30mins without success until 9ish when she takes it and... naps on the breast. What should we do then?
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Hoping you get a bit more good BFing advice, but my first thought is that she isn't having enough BFs during the day to prevent her waking overnight for them...
I *think* the recs are 4-5 BFs until about 10 months of age, during the day. It could well be that she is favouring solids (as many LOs do), this leads to poor nutrition via solids (simply because she cannot consume enough of a varied diet quite yet) so she then wakes at night for the milk she needs to balance out her diet.
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At your LOs age we were on 4x BF during the day and 1 or 2 at night (although I think many are just on 4x a day if they STTN).
DH did the one by bottle and I BF for the other so it wasn't that much of a hassle and seeing as my DD is also small for her age I decided to not wean the NF. She dropped both within days of each other at around 10mo. If your DD is feeding 3x at night she's prob simply not hungry in the morning. We got that too after the nights she had 2x NFs. You can try wean the NFs, I'm sure the BFing forum ladies will help with that. In our case I just skipped the morning feed if she didn't want it waited till breakfast to give her a sippy with EBM and made her cereal really runny with more EBM and got the milk into her that way. For the rest of the day the BF routine was the same: BF after nap and solids one hour later.
That said it looks like BF has become a prop and she is using it to get to sleep for naps and night time?
About your 2nd nap being short, I've noticed lots of Los start doing that about now. If her total sleep in right for her age and it's not messing up BT, maybe that's enough for her? At 9mo we were on 1x nap of 1.5h and 1x nap of 40min with a 12h night.
Take a look at this:
Gentle Removal Plan
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Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but I think this is an independent sleep thing now. For both naps and at bedtime she's falling asleep on the breast, so of course that is going to lead to more night wakings. You need to either feed her a bit earlier, or wake her after her feed, so that she goes into her cot AWAKE. Not drowsy, head resting on your shoulder, but wide awake, so that she does all the work of getting to sleep by herself.
I would absolutely not BF 3x overnight. At most I would feed at 10.30-11pm (as a dream feed, don't wait for her to wake), and 4am, but not between those times. Then I'd quickly look to drop one or other of those feeds (for me it would be the first one as I have a morbid fear of early mornings).
With some babies and night feeds, yes you can encourage them to take more/feed more often during the day and that drops the feeds at night. With others, you have to take the lead but accept that they won't feed more during the day until you drop a feed at night.
But yeh, my reading of this is that it's more about independent sleep than number of BFs or solids/BF ratio or whatever.
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I think I agree with Anna, the falling asleep on the breast is becoming a prop, and probably leading so snacking too, she's also having too much at night, then not enough during the day. I know it's so hard, and at this ge they have more fight in them but I think making a few rules for yourselves may help ie only bf if she wakes after 4hrs after Bt then 4-5 hrs after that, not earlier. All other NW settle in any other way you can, then look at weaning the rocking or alt method you use to replace BF. :-*
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Sorry I can't reply earlier. But being a dad is really the toughest job I've done. It really is. No, DD hasn't let us sleep more. And it really is cruel. My wife was close to crying (again) last night. I took charge of her when my wife couldn't stand it anymore and she was crying for 3h non-stop. Now she's crying in the other room and we're pretty sure set for another crazy night. I don't like the nights. Honestly. I don't know when it'll all stop so that three of us can really enjoy what life is meant to bring. It's so tough now. She didn't gain weight. She cried a lot. She refused food. We were just guessing, chasing and fixing 1 problem then another then another and the cycle never ends. We went to the pediatrician, to sleep psychologist, take blood test and everything but the problem is not going away. I'm really frustrated and so is my wife. We don't have anybody's help too so it even increases the difficulty. Sending her to daycare first requires us to weaning her off from breastfeeding. But she is already so low on her weight and the weaning plan is not working at all. She refused everything now. The first 4 months were so good and the next 5 months were nightmares. Seriously. Sorry with such a negative tone to this reply. I'm writing it to you when I'm really tired and frustrated now.
Will it stop someday?
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Absolutely it will stop, and you are doing a great job by trying to do everything you can for her.
I think that weight gain will follow sleep so please don't try to fix everything at once. That would be too much for most people!
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Hugs. Sleep deprivation is the worst.
First do you have anyone who can come and help out for a bit, even just 1 night or a few hours. You both need a break :-*
Second. How are things now...what are you doing when she wakes at night? Are you still feeding to sleep for all naps and NW? - I know it's hard, but this is the prop that I think is causing so much NW and problems. :-\
Any teeth?
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Couldn't read this without sending you huge hugs. It can be so much harder than you ever imagined but yes it does get better - especially when parents care as much as you two do. I agree that sleep is the best thing to concentrate on and yes if anybody can help out for a tiny bit that would be great. If not, it really helped my husband and I with our first to 'give each other time off'. A couple of hours away from home doing something for yourself on your own makes a huge amount of difference and re-charges your batteries.
Good luck and everyone is here to hold your hand. :-*
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Hello all,
As usual, we always get a mental boost coming here and see your support.
We solved the independent sleep problem for 2 weeks now. She usually sleeps easily after ~15mins of storytelling on the lap (both for nap and for the night).
We also solved the short afternoon nap by increasing 2nd A time from 2:45 to 3:45 (similar to the 1st A time). Now both of her nap are about 1h or 1.5h.
But the NWs are not going away. And my wife has had it enough with the BF and we decided to wean it off. I read a lot about gradual weaning and mixed bottle and BF and we applied the tips over the last week. The thing is our DD just refuses to drink milk from either the bottle or the sippy cup (though some days she’d take ~30ml-50ml of bottle). Offering her milk through the adult cup seems is really slow and she gets bored of drinking that way after ~30ml too. The BF seems to be shortened too. The only thing that is unchanged is solid (30gfor breakfast, 70g for lunch and 40g for tea time).
Here’s our current routine for our now 9mo DD, 71cm, 6.66kg (have had a swollen gum and drooling for 3m but no other apparent sign of teething):
6:00: Wake
(Throughout the day, we tried to offer BF 1h before each meal, or 1h after but she’s not that interested, refuses or sucks for 3mins and stops. Bottle is also offered here and there, some meals some days she’d take ~30ml)
8:00: Solid 1 (~40g of cereal, or finger food e.g. bread, cheese, some days skips this)
9:45: Nap1 (A time = 3h45) for ~1h15, 1h30mins.
12:00: Solid 2 (~70g)
14:30: Nap 2 for ~1h20 (A time = 3h45).
17:00: Solid 3 (~50g)
17:45: Bath and BT routine
18:30-19:00: Put to bed
till 20:30: Up ~ 2 times, back to sleep after ~5-10mins of shushing/patting/picking up.
~23, 24:00: some days sleeps through, some days up and crying, we end up BF4 and some days she goes back to sleep, some days stays up for ~1h-2h-3h crying. Usually my DW would be exhausted after ~1.5h of comforting and I jump in for another 1.5h.
~2:00 or 3 or 4 or 5:00: Fussing, BF5. Some days up for the day after BF at 5.
So, 2 problems: NWs and not eating milk enough (hopefully from the bottle or cup).
And I definitely think they’re related. As many of you have said (especially Kara), she probably isn't having enough BFs/milk during the day to prevent her waking overnight for them. And the introduction of bottle also reduces mom’s supply which shortens the BF time.
So, here’s our plan and I’d like to ask for your opinions.
1- Cut off all the solids during the day (except maybe a piece of cheese here and there which contains milk).
2- BF in the morning and evening. Bottle at lunch.
3- If she refuses bottle at lunch, skip it and do BF normally in the evening.
4- Do this for a week or two, so she gets back to drinking only milk and re-introduce solids when things are on the roll.
Now, our questions are:
1- As her weight is a concern, is it a good idea to drop all the solids? (almost all the baby professionals we've consulted told us to keep offering solids due to her low weight).
2- Is now a good time to wean BF off?
2- If she refuses the bottle at noon, should we re-offer it ~1h later? or just skip it and hope she’ll catch up at the next meal with BF? or should we offer the bottle even in the evening?
3- As for dropping the NFs to make place for the day feeds, now she’s up ~4 times, we offer breast ~2 times (sometimes she goes back to sleep, sometimes stay up for 1-2h crying if we don’t pick her up and sit down with her). If we drop one, and she cries, what should we do? The PUPD doesn’t work with us mentally now. Letting her cry is out of the question, plus the complaints from our neighbors. Maybe we’ll try to rock her to sleep and hope she’ll forget about being hungry?
4- Should we start weaning off by using bottle now, or go straight to the sippy cup (which she’s not used to using and just refusing and pouring milk everywhere), or even adult cup?
We're really looking forward to your advice. Thank you very much.
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The absolute last thing I would do right now is attempt to move her to a bottle/sippy. She is really not getting enough milk with BFing and it's going to be less if you stop offering the breast... the more you reduce BFing, the faster your wife's supply will drop, making the problem worse. She really is a very tiny girl at less than 7kgs - I would still allow solids, but be sure you are offering very high calorie/high fat options (avocados are excellent in this regard as is true greek yogurt at 9% fat).
I know your wife is exhausted and totally at her wit's end.. I can assure you that many of us have been there (me included). But until baby starts to gain weight, I don't think you have an option.
Maybe we’ll try to rock her to sleep and hope she’ll forget about being hungry?
This won't work I am afraid. She may go back to sleep, but she will wake after a short time of an hour at most and will still be hungry. It will just disrupt her sleep that much more than it already is, I would just offer the breast and get her back to sleep quicker with a full tummy.
Given her itty bitty stature, I would try this for a week and see how it goes:
1. cut solids like grains etc that just serve to fill her without provided dense nutrition.. offer high fat/protein options twice a day (breakfast/lunch - an hour after a BF).
2. BF on demand to get supply back up, let her drain one boob and offer the second.. next feed, start with the second and then offer the other.
3. if she wakes at night, offer a BF (both sides if she wants it). If she is really missing the milk she needs, she will theoretically sleep a longer stretch if she is full and not just half full, KWIM?
4. Come back and let us know how things are going :)
Question though: what "milk" is in her sippy? Formula, Breast milk?
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Just a few questions ...
Does she drink water from a sippy?
How are her poops? - constipated at all?
Forgive me if I have missed this, or if you have tried it. What is you drop dinner solids and only offer BF...would she take a good feed at BT?
Hugs!
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Also wondered about growth, I know weight gain is slow but is she growing? Height, head circ etc
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Hello,
Thank you for the support. Here are our answers, and some followup questions :).
what "milk" is in her sippy? Formula, Breast milk?
It's "lait de suite" that we tried. It's offered here in Switzerland for babies from 6 months old. We're not sure if it's the "formula", but definitely not breast milk :). Are you suggesting we should offer EBM in the cup too?
The absolute last thing I would do right now is attempt to move her to a bottle/sippy.
We offered bottles of “lait de suite” everyday from Jan 19 till now (Feb 6) and she’s been taking 40ml-50ml/day (over a meal or two). There was a day she took 180ml. So that’s why we had thought weaning off might have a chance to work. Do you think if we went ahead and move her to sippy, she would stop eating?
cut solids like grains etc that just serve to fill her without provided dense nutrition.. offer high fat/protein options twice a day (breakfast/lunch - an hour after a BF).
Do you mean dropping solids in the evening?
We’re offering “La Vache qui rit” cheese as finger food and she takes it quite well (a piece of 20g/ day). Should we keep offering it everyday? As we hears that cheese contributes to the required milk intake total.
BF on demand to get supply back up
Can you tell me what is BF on demand? She never asks for BF and we never know if she's hungry or not. Same routine, some days she drinks at lunch, some days she doesn't for example.
Does she drink water from a sippy?
Yes. Not much lately though (refuses it or pours it out all over). She drinks more from the adult cup.
How are her poops? - constipated at all?
Not really. Her poops are usually kind of dark. Normal texture.
What if you drop dinner solids and only offer BF...would she take a good feed at BT?
No we haven’t tried it. Should we now?
I know weight gain is slow but is she growing? Height, head circ etc
Both her weight and head circ are slowly growing, going along the 1% curve from 6 months till now (9mo). They went flat from 4mo (25% curve at that time) to 6mo.
Other developmental milestones seem to be ok (sitting up, standing with support, etc.), except the teething. And another good thing is that her height goes up along the 50% curve all along from birth.
A few other points:
-For the last 2, 3 days, we decrease the amount of solids. Basically, we just give her like 20g, 30g of cheese (Kiri, La Vache qui rit) for breakfast OR lunch. Then 20g, 30g avocado after 2nd nap. The nights seem to be better. She’s up at ~8pm (down after comforting), ~10/11pm (down after BF), ~2am (BF), then up for the day ~5:30am (and a BF shortly before or shortly after).
- My mom told us that we could boil pig’s bone and use the resulted water for cooking. It should give her more fat. Is that correct? :)
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Interesting about NW and her food. I wonder if she is intolerant to something like, wheat :-\ so what were you offering before that your not now solids wise?
Mums are usually wise ;) it can't hurt - it will just be a broth really. Nothing wrong with a broth.
I would give her water from an adult cup if she prefers that.
I see your getting bf advice on the bf board so ill leave that to be covered over there ;)
Because she is growing (height, head) developing normally and gaining weight - even if slow I wouldn't worry too much about it. I know itis concerning as a parent, but it could just be her. I do think keeping up with milk being the main source of nutrition is important though, be it formula or breast milk.
What do you think about keeping the solids as you have them now, offering the types of foods kara mentions, high fat and protein rather than wheat based or carbs and see if things improve a little?