BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: bluefin on December 23, 2012, 15:46:04 pm
-
Hi ladies - I'm new here. I have a 4.5 month old son who has been fighting sleep since he was about 4 weeks old. It feels like it's been an uphill battle and there are days it seems like we take one step forward, but two steps back. I'm going to try and summarize what we've been doing as best as I can.
His natural WU seems to be between 8:30 AM and 9:15 AM. I've tried "waking him up" at 8:30 AM on days that he sleeps past that, but I don't know if that's the right thing to do or not. No matter what time he wakes up, he will NOT eat as soon as he wakes. I usually have to wait another 30 - 60 minutes before he's interested in eating. That makes moving him on an EASY schedule kind of challenging. He is EBF. His eating recently has been all over the place. At times he will go 3ish hours between feeds, but other times he seems hungrier sooner. He's been VERY distracted while nursing lately, so I've been trying to limit nursing sessions to a quiet and dark room but sometimes he'll still get distracted at the shadows on the ceiling or wall.
His A time between naps is around 1:45. He had been napping for only 35 - 45 minutes, but I think we are making progress on that front by extending his A time slightly by 15 min (previously his A time was 1:30). We have broken him of the swaddle in the past few days (was breaking free on his own and is close to rolling from back to tummy) and yesterday he took 2, 1.5 - 2 hour naps and a 3rd evening catnap of 35 minutes. Our nap routine usually consists of diaper change and arms out swaddle/sleep sack and lay him down in his crib. If he doesn't go to sleep right away, we will bounce him on an exercise ball until he is relaxed (but still awake) and then lay him back in his crib and either bounce the mattress or shush/pat him until he drifts off. If he does wake early, I have had some luck with repeating the bouncing and shush/pat to get him to extend his nap, although it doesn't always work. He has fallen asleep 100% on his own a handful of times without any extra effort on our part, but usually he still requires some assistance.
Night time has been awful lately. Based on his WU, I figure BT should be around 9 PM. It's usually not an issue of getting him to sleep at that time, it's that he will wake 35 - 60 min after it and FIGHT sleep for the next few hours (last night until 12 AM). He falls asleep, wakes up crying, we resettle, falls asleep, wake up crying, etc. Our BT routine is diaper/pajamas, story, feed, bed. 2 or 3 times a week we will do a bath/diaper/pajamas, but everything else remains the same. Our night time ritual is about the same to get him to sleep. We give him the opportunity to go to sleep on his own and when he starts crying we will bounce him until he's calm and then put him into the crib and bounce the mattress or shush/pat him. He also is unswaddled at night (recent) and at times does seem to try and find his hands to comfort himself. We do not give him a paci as he's never taken one. Once we get him asleep he's usually pretty good (for example, after he fell asleep at midnight last night he slept until 6:00 AM before needing a feed. I fed/changed him and he went back down until 9:15 AM).
I guess what I am looking to know is how to solve our night issues. How do I get him to STAY asleep after I put him down for bed? Is my routine OK? To get him on an EASY routine do I focus on BT or WU? Do I need to wake him up at a certain time every day if he doesn't naturally wake?
TIA!
-
Hi there!
Night time has been awful lately. Based on his WU, I figure BT should be around 9 PM. It's usually not an issue of getting him to sleep at that time, it's that he will wake 35 - 60 min after it and FIGHT sleep for the next few hours (last night until 12 AM). He falls asleep, wakes up crying, we resettle, falls asleep, wake up crying, etc.
This sounds to me like he may be overtired. I think he might naturally need to go to bed a little bit earleir and not be quite so tired when he goes to bed. I think that if you can get a solid stretch of sleep in him, he might naturally wake a little bit earlier and then you'd put him to bed a little earlier -- seems like one is causing the other and he's getting OT as a result.
I'd continue stretching your A times as you have been doing to try to get some longer naps out of him. It's great that you've had luck resettling him, it seems like you're on the right track there.
Do I need to wake him up at a certain time every day if he doesn't naturally wake?
I never woke any of mine though if you're really interested on focusing on perfecting your routine, you might do it for a few days. I'd start with BT and make it a touch earlier and see how he does with that.
-
This sounds to me like he may be overtired. I think he might naturally need to go to bed a little bit earleir and not be quite so tired when he goes to bed. I think that if you can get a solid stretch of sleep in him, he might naturally wake a little bit earlier and then you'd put him to bed a little earlier -- seems like one is causing the other and he's getting OT as a result.
Thanks for your response! It makes sense that he's OT, but I guess this is the part where I get confused. If I try and put him to bed earlier, he ends up waking up after 45 - 60 mins and then won't go back to sleep. Is that because I've tried much too soon versus doing it gradually? I was just reading another post from someone who had a similar issue with trying to get the BT moved up. Last night he didn't conk out until 11 PM. He takes his last nap starting around 6:30 PM or 7:00 PM (last night he slept from 7:00 PM to 7:45 PM). I tried everything I could to have him down at 9:15 PM and he was not having it. What BT would you suggest with the current schedule?
He's still sleeping now and it's 9:30 AM. I figured letting him get caught up on sleep was better at this point than sticking to a routine.
-
Also FWIW I did the "Know Your Baby Quiz" and he's a touchy LO.
-
I would try somewhere around 8:30 to start, just because it will give you a 12 hour night. Anytime he wakes after that, keep it really low key. If he's touchy, he also might need a longer winddown routine -- what are you currently doing before bed as a winddown?
-
We usually keep it pretty low key after he wakes from his last nap. Limited toys (usually just Sophie for him to chew on) and limited lights. About 30 minutes before we want to have him in bed, we bring him upstairs and change his diaper and put him in pajamas. My husband then usually reads to him for 5 - 10 minutes and then we put him in his sleepsack and I give him a final feed before bed. If we are doing a bath, we start the process at 45 minutes and the only difference is the bath at the beginning.
A couple of questions:
1. So if we're shooting for an 8:30 PM bedtime, do I have him skip that 6:30 or 7:00 cat nap? I get so anxious when he skips naps because it almost always means it's a horrible night. Last night he skipped the evening nap and was up every hour from 9:30 PM to 5:30 AM and then finally slept from 5:30 AM to 9:45 AM. His naps have been horrible today as a result and extending them has not been successful.
2. If we do get him asleep successfully at 8:30 PM, when he wakes up after do I treat it as a night waking and try and get him right back to sleep? We've tried that before and he usually ends up fighting us until his normal A time passes. During his "normal" night wakings, he usually goes back to sleep pretty easily after a quick feed and a diaper change (excluding last night, he was far too tired).
-
do I have him skip that 6:30 or 7:00 cat nap?
No, the catnap is just meant to buy you enough extra time to get him to a 12hr day and a reasonable bedtime, he should be ready for a sleep after 1-1.5hr from a 45min catnap.
If we do get him asleep successfully at 8:30 PM, when he wakes up after do I treat it as a night waking and try and get him right back to sleep?
Yes. Keep lights low, etc. Generally a waking soon after going to sleep for the night is related to overtiredness.
-
Thank you! I will give it a shot.
-
Well tonight is a complete failure. He took 2 - 45 min naps that I was not able to extend. On his 3rd nap, I tried extending and ended up holding him (in the dark in his room) after the 45 min point for a total of 2 hours just to get some sleep into him. He took a CN at 7:30 for 35 min. We did our BT routine as soon as he woke up, including warm bath and massage, and have been trying to get him down since 8:45. It's been an hour and he's fighting sleep hard. I don't know what else to do. I tagged my husband in to get a break. He won't stop crying. I really can't have a repeat of last night. I'm exhausted.
-
What's his A time now? Usually LO's are on 2hr at 4 months, so he may need a touch more to be able to sleep longer than 45min.
Is there a particular way he sleeps better than others? Does he cry at a specific period of the day or all the time? Any possibility he could be in some discomfort when lying down?
-
He's still awake. :( It's now midnight. He has drifted off a couple of times but woke back up within minutes.
His A time is about 1:45. I have gotten a couple 2 hour naps out of him within the past week with that. I can try and push it to 2 hours and see what happens. I thought we were making progress on naps but I guess I was wrong.
He seems to like laying on his side. When shush patting him, there have been a few times I left him slightly on his side because he seemed comfortable. But there are other times if I try and get him on his side he will fight me and twist his body and arch his back to flip back over. When he's OT he gets clingy so wants to be held to sleep.
I mentioned how hard it is to get him down to the pedi and she didn't bat an eye. She checked him over and didn't see anything wrong with him. He does get pretty gassy sometimes and poops every 3 to 7 days but that has been the norm for him since 3 months.
I feel like we are in a vicious cycle that I can't get him out of. At this point he will probably end up sleeping in again. The majority of my day today was spent getting him to go to sleep or to stay asleep.
-
I mentioned how hard it is to get him down to the pedi and she didn't bat an eye
Yeah, they hear every parent complain about LO's sleep ;)
Anything ring bells here: Reflux 101 - General reflux information
These work for most babies... tips for calming my refluxing LO
Most babies will sleep eventually unless there's something underlying.
-
I mentioned silent reflux to her and she brushed it aside. He does have some signs of reflux (sour face, gassy, frequent eating) but does not spit up. She didn't think he had it, or if he does that it's not bad, because he's not uncomfortable all day.
He finally settled at 3:30 AM and stopped waking up every hour. I don't know what to do. :(
-
Just got him down for his morning nap after 2 hours of A time. He was quite fussy the last 10 - 15 minutes before his nap but we kept it really low key in his room. HOPING this will start the day with a good nap so we can start to get out of this OT cycle.
-
Crossing fingers for you.
-
Confused. After 2 hours of A time I got a 35 minute nap. I dropped again to 1:45 for next A time and got a 45 min nap. Would that mean his A time is between the two? I don't know how to get more precise than 15 minute blocks because it doesn't always take the same amount of time to get him down.
-
I'd say its more than 2hr, or that these short naps are somewhat developmental. 45min is either developmental or undertired, usually. Did you try to resettle that one?
Any chance of overstimulation for the first nap - how did he wake? Happy, cranky?
-
I did not try and resettle any naps today since the extended nap from yesterday had no positive impact on his night. Last night was worse than the night before. I left him 10 - 15 minutes after each nap because he was jabbering. I watched him on the monitor to see what he was doing and went to get him when he started to cry. All of his naps today he's woken up well from. I'm nearly positive we didn't overstimulate him this morning. After he woke this morning I fed and changed him and then my husband and I snuggled with him in bed for about an hour (all of us awake, just very low key). He had one small toy for about 15 minutes and the rest of the time he had his burp cloth to suck and chew on. After that we hung out in his room with the lights off but with the shades open until about 1:40 A time then did our nap routine. His last (3rd) nap was 40 minutes. We are going to try and put him down again even though he's only been up an hour because he's getting pretty hyperactive, which is a definite OT sign for him.
He has napped longer than 45 mins before without any additional assistance by me. Same wake time, same basic activities, same routine. Would that indicate more developmental if he can do it but doesn't do it all the time even under very similar conditions?
Should I try and push him to 2:15 for the first A time tomorrow AM?
-
Just wanted to share my issues and what has been working for me with myLO...
I have been working really hard on independent sleeping - putting him down drowsy but awake. It has been making such a difference in his sleeping. My DS sleeps for naps and nights swaddled - haven't had much luck weaning it, but we have been letting him have one hand free in a Love sack, which keeps his arm up by his head. It has worked so well the last 2 weeks. He's suddenly able to settle himself back to sleep most times, unless he wakes up hungry.
I also tried to move my DS bedtime so many times! I eventually got it to 6:30 but he would wake every hour until about 10:30. I decided to give that up, and now I just base it on what time he wakes in the morning. If he wakes up at 7:00am, I aim for a 7pm or 730pm bedtime.
As for napping, stretching my DS's A time, and giving him lots of physical activity has seemed to help me. It's funny because if I am off even 5 minutes, I get a 45 minute nap. If I'm bang on with his A time, I get 1hr45min or 2hrs. The quality of A time seems important when developmental stuff is happening, as they want lots of practice on talking, crawling, rolling over, etc.
These little ones are a puzzle!
So my advice is to work really hard on teaching self settling and independent sleep. Also, I just relaxed about what time bedtime was, and just tried to make sure the day wasn't too long. sometimes the day is 12hrs, sometimes a little less.
Fingers crossed for you.
-
Would that indicate more developmental if he can do it but doesn't do it all the time even under very similar conditions?
No, that would indicate he's undertired if he can do it but isn't.
I'd give the 2hr15 a go and see what happens. With the higher A time, you may need to step in with hold through the jolts or shush/pat to help him through the transition since he's out of practise.
-
Well our night last night was better. He went down at 9:45 PM and woke at 11:30 PM pretty hungry. I fed him and had a bit of a harder time getting him back down than normal, but then he slept until 5:30 AM. I fed him again and put him back down at around 6:00 AM. He fussed a bit, but fell asleep on his own. At 7:00 AM I heard him stir on the monitor. I waited a few minutes since he wasn't crying and just grunting, and he went back to sleep. Up at 8:15 AM crying. I tried to get him back down for a little longer as the I thought morning transition from 9:15 AM yesterday to 8:15 AM this morning was too much of a shift but after I fed him again, he seemed happy to be awake. Going to give the 2:15 A time a go this morning.
-
He went down like a breeze after 2:15. NO crying! Still woke at 35 min even with an attempt to resettle. I ended up picking him up and rocking him back to sleep. Not sure if he will let me put him down. Tried once and he was wide eyed immediately and would not tolerate shush pat so I rocked him again. Whole process took about 30 min. He seems to be in a very light sleep now but his eyes are closed. Should I just hold him asleep until 12:30? That would have been the end of a 2 hour nap.
-
Well scratch that. He woke up crying and passed some gas. I bicycled his legs, he smiled, and then I bounced him and put him back into his crib and shush patted to sleep. Poor guy needs to poop I think. :/
-
So far still sleeping. Do I count this as one nap even though he woke up several times? Not as good as a full uninterrupted nap I would expect but is this the same or better than a couple CN?
Sorry so many questions. I just really want the best for him and some rest for us all.
-
Now a 30 minute nap. He goes from asleep to eyes popped open. Shush pat alone can never get him through the transition nor holding a hand on him. I'm ready to give up.
-
Tonight is horrible again. He will not stay asleep. So here I am just holding him. I know the second I put him down he will wake and cry. I have been trying to get him down the last hour. Shush pat isn't working and he is fighting me when I try.
-
I suspect he is teething. My husband and I can feel a slight bump on his lower gums. Though we are both sleep deprived, so maybe nothing is there. Anyway, I had a very hard time settling him for his morning nap so I broke down and gave him Tylenol in case I'm right. He just napped for an hour and fifteen minutes! Not as great as a 2 hour nap, but much better than the 35/45 naps! That would definitely indicate something is causing him pain this preventing his sleep, right?
-
Do I count this as one nap even though he woke up several times? Not as good as a full uninterrupted nap I would expect but is this the same or better than a couple CN?
An extended nap is better than a couple of catnaps separated by a larger A time. Still a solid nap is obviously better but yes, this is progress.
That would definitely indicate something is causing him pain this preventing his sleep, right?
I'd say so, unless he was just undertired and needed the extra A time he spent fighting the nap and taking the meds... How are you doing with A times now?
-
A times are at ~2:15 (sometimes 2:20). It worked like magic the first time and now he's fighting naps even worse than before. As soon as we head upstairs he starts crying. When I change his diaper and put him in the sleep sack he cries harder. By the time I turn the lights off and the white noise on he's pretty upset. It's like he knows that we want him to nap as soon as we start to head upstairs. He seems to know the nap cues at least, so I'm trying to stay positive about that piece of it. Now I don't know if he's OT, UT, in pain, etc. I'm so confused. If he naps for < 45 min I try and cut the next A time by 15 - 20 min if I can't extend his nap, but with the one exception he has still been fighting the naps.
Today:
- 1st nap A time was 2:20. He napped for 1 hour 15 min by himself (also this is the nap I gave him Tylenol before). Did not try and extend as he seemed to wake up quite cheerful, plus I've never had luck resettling after a nap that long.
- 2nd nap A time was 2:15 - 2:20. He woke after 35 min, extended to 55 min and couldn't keep him asleep any longer. Woke a little cranky, but not awful.
- 3rd nap A time was 2:15. He woke after 35 min, extended to 1 hr. Woke cranky.
He was pretty cranky after he woke from his 3rd nap, so we tried to put him back down for bed. He's been in a very light sleep for almost an hour and a half. Keeps waking up. He's wanting nothing but to comfort nurse right now. All of the usual calming tactics aren't working. My husband is taking a turn so I can get a break.
-
What's his temperament?
-
He's normally pretty happy most of the time. Easy to get to laugh and smile. Super alert all the time. He doesn't miss a thing.
I gave him some Tylenol before bed. He slept OK for a couple of hours and now he will not stay asleep. Something has to be bothering him. This is the worst his sleep has ever been.
-
You could consider alternating the tylenol (paracetamol) with ibuprofen for a bit more effective pain relief if his teeth are bothering him a lot.
Sounds like he's spirited - DS did better going to sleep for naps when I brought something from his last activity to sort of bridge the transition from playing to going into his cot for a sleep.
Something has to be bothering him.
Digestive issues - Have you started solids? Offered anything new lately? Tried thickening a bottle with rice cereal?
Pain - teeth?
Coming down with an illness?
-
When I took the baby quiz, he was mostly touchy with spirited being next.
No solids. He is EBF and rarely has a bottle. I tried to get him to bed early tonight but he keeps wanting to comfort nurse. If I don't let him he screams. He's never comfort nursed like this before.
He did have a minor cold last week. Some congestion but no fever. He seems back to normal now from that.
-
He did take one 1:45 nap all by himself today. The rest were CN. I did nothing different. Ironically the first nap today he went down with no protest and slept 35 min but he fought me on the long nap and ended up having a great nap. No idea.
-
I tried to get him to bed early tonight but he keeps wanting to comfort nurse. If I don't let him he screams. He's never comfort nursed like this before.
Growth spurt? Teeth?
-
I'm thinking teeth. If that's the case I just need to do what I need to do to get him through it right?
-
Yep, pretty much. Are you medicating?
-
I did not give him anything yesterday, but I have given Tylenol a few times when I wasn't able to get him calm any other way.
Do I need to worry about creating any bad habits by letting him NTS or holding him while he sleeps? (more so than I already have perhaps) I've been trying to vary how I've been getting him to sleep so he doesn't become dependent on one way to fall asleep.
-
I tended to stick with hold to sleep as I could wean it reasonably easily with gradual withdrawal. Feeding to sleep is tricky to wean.
If he's been an independent sleeper before, he will be again, so don't stress too much about it.