BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: mananieto on February 08, 2013, 02:04:13 am
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Hi!! Ive been here before and youve helped me so much I hope you can give some advice. Im at the end of my rope. LO has been having for the past 2 month several NW. It has now gotten to the point where he wakes more than 20 times a night.
What I cant figure out is why. He falls asleep on his own but at NW he isnt able to. Most times its almost as if he cant reach a deep sleep. Im guilty of coming to help him too soon. But still I dont think that explains the constant wakings. I just cant figure out why he falls asleep so well at BT and he cant do the same for the rest of the night.
Also I think the amount of times he gets up are too many. Its taking a toll on me and my marriage. Im sorry for being so down but its just hard at the moment.
When he wakes at night I usually go, say the sleepy word, lay him sideways put the pacifier back in and leave. He used to fall asleep right back. Now he sleeps for 5 minutes, begins to stir and fidget and wakes up. I come in and do it all over again. Sometimes he cries If I try to leave the room. Should I wait until he CRIES, then settle and leave before he falls asleep? At the moment Im staying a few minutes and then leaving. Im afraid I might become a NW if I stay unil he falls asleep!!! So the PU/PD becomes me coming in settling and then leaving when he is calm but no sleeping?
Do you think it has to do with our routine? He used to be on two naps 3 A but we had NW. About 2 weeks ago he started refusing his morning naps (wanted to play and stand on his crib) so we had 5.5 A with a 2.5 Nap and an early BT (still had NW). I read the forums about the 2-1 Nap transition and decided againts it. But I havent been able to get the EASY back on track... We are currently...
7.30 W
9 S (1.5 hour nap) Strange its so long right? Shouldnt he be UT?
10.30 W
2.30 S (4 hour A)
3.30 W (1 hour nap)
7 BT
The first A is vey short, but I have found that if I wait for 3 hours or more he will only play in his crib and we end ip with a 5A then the 2.5 nap and no time for an afternoon nap. I dont undertand why he sleeps so well after such a short A time. If I give him 2-2.5 A he will only sleep for an hour!!
Im so confused!!! Thank you so much!! And sorry for the long post!!
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When are these wakings happening in the night?
I wonder what you think of the idea that perhaps he is tacking the first nap onto his night and shifting his day to start at 10:30?
With PUPD, you are meant to wait til he cries before you intervene and frankly, I'd be doing that anyway otherwise you're rushing in and not giving him the chance to try getting back to sleep.
Did you see the options of a catnap and a long nap in the 2-1 thread? You can't really avoid 2-1... It happens anyway. I would suggest you don't go to 1 nap now though, he's quite young for it.
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Hi!! Thanks for your reply!! First of all Wow!!! I had never thought he was actually brining his night into the morning!! I think it makes total sense!!! So should I just start the day when he wakes and have a 3.5 A even though he seems so tired? (Probably from having such a bad night!!)
The NW are all over the place. I cant seem to find a pattern.
I usually wait until he cries to go in, but no until he CRIES. The difference is that at the first cries he settles down easily. When I wait until he cries loud and hard (what I guess is his I need you cry) he is very difficult to calm down.
Thanks for your reply!!
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So should I just start the day when he wakes and have a 3.5 A even though he seems so tired? (Probably from having such a bad night!!)
Yes, that's the idea. Keep it low key and stick with it even though it will be painful for a few days and be ready to resettle at the nap if he wakes OT at 30min. You should find once you get his day back where it should be and the routine is more stable the wakings settle down. If not then at least we have consistent data to look at to find out what else is going on.
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Hi I have almost the same ten month old, what did you do? Are you sleeping through the night now?
My dd wakes at 6 am
Sleeps at 8.30
Wakes at 10
Sleeps at 1 wakes at 2-3
Sleeps at 7
Then wakes at 7.30 8.30 9.30 11, 1, and 4 am
I'm so so tired everything is falling apart now. She is bf, and at 7 months I put her into bed with me out of desperation for sleep. Now I'm trying to undo all her bad habits. She isn't thrilled about going in her cot but does relax when she is in it. We just began the accidental parenting and atthe8.30 wake up she took 20 mins to get her to lay down Qnd go back to sleep. I really hope you were successful and can pass your wisdom on. Thank you
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Hi!! At the moment Im just trying to get my EASY back on track. Thanks for your reply.
Yesterday we had 3.10 A followed by a 50 min Nap (This confused me since he almost didnt make it. He started to fall asleep on his high chair while eating, and then I only got a 50 min nap which I understand is UT). We then had a 3.30 A followed by a 30 min Nap (OT, I was expecting that. Couldnt resetle after half an hour). Then we had a 4A (which I guess too long after such a short nap? How much should I shorten A time after such a short nap?)
BT was at 7.30 He woke at 8.50 (Pacifier) 9.40 (Pacifier) 10.50 (Pacifier) 12 (He was crying but stopped when I came in the room. He tried to go to sleep but couldnt. I had to settle several times, sushh, etc until 3.30). Everytime he calmed down he tried to fall asleep but after about a minute he couldnt get there and he cried again. Is this because he has gotten so awake its difficult for him to go back to sleep? I didnt pick him up. I have a question: Is it better to just stick to it and let him fall asleep on his own even it takes him 3.30 hours and no sleep. Or should I just help him a little by picking him up and helping him get there faster? I didnt do this yesterday because I figured this could cause Prop issues.
Today he woke up at 8. I was wondering if I should wake him earlier, or leave him to catch up on some sleep. So far we had a 3A time and he is napping as I write.
Thank you so much. You have no idea what your help means to me. In my country we have no one to help us.
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Clemmly - you're welcome to follow along here :) you may find you get some more advice specific to your situation if you post a new thread.
I think the UT nap is probably right. He's used to going to sleep early on in the day, it will take a couple of days of sticking to this longer a time in the morning before he shows what he really needs. 3:10 is a very short first a time for this age unless you're doing a short AM nap but stick with it for a few days and lets see what happens. He will wake in the night until his body gets used to shifting the day back to daytime.
With OT naps I would be right there in the room at that 30 min mark and HTTJ or whatever to get him through the transition rather than waiting til he wakes. I had more success extending naps that way and he's quite OT so he will be having trouble getting to sleep and staying asleep anyway at the moment.
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Hi just wanted to give an update and ask a question..
So for the last two days we had the following easy
Day 1...
Wake
3.00A (He was tired from such a terrible night with the 3.30 hour NW)
2.00 S
3.20A (Was hard to put down but finally went to sleep)
40 min S (I woke him up)
2.30 A
And off to bed. This was the best night weve had in months!!! He woke up at 10 (Paci), 11 (Paci) 12 (Paci) 1(Paci) 2.30-3 Hard to settle And finally he woke up at 8.30
Today Day 2
Wake (8.30)
3.30 A
2.00 S (Strange after such a short A right?) He woke from his nap at 2pm. I tried to put him down to sleep at 5 pm and planned to wake him at 5.40 so that he would go to bed around 8-8.30
He just wouldnt go down. I tried until it was 5.30 and just gave up. I have no idea what to do when this happens!! Im sad that all my effort of the last few days has been for nothing since now he is going to be OT again!!
What should I do when his nap goes so much into the afternoon?? I put him to bed at 6.30 Pm (with an A of 4.30). He fought BT and finally went down at 7. So far he has woken up once at 7.40. What advice would you give me so that he doesnt become OT? Should I have stuck with the nap as far as 6-6.30? wake up and move BT?
Thanks!!!!
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I wonder what you think of the short AM / long PM nap scenario which should enable you to keep 2 naps in the day?
I think you might have to consider doing an earlier day, 7-7 rather than 8:30-8:30 to fit in with his body rhythms, but it's possible you don't need to if we can get this routine worked out.
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Hi thanks for replying so fast!!!
Ill give a try!! Just some questions...
1. How long should his first A be? Should I make it short on purpose so that he has room for a good PM nap?
2. When should I wake him? About 45 min?
3. What is a good A time before BT?
Thank you!! Im certaintly going to start this tomorrow!! Im so excited with just the prospect of better sleep!!
I would love for him to go down at 7 if it means he will STTN. Even if he woke up at 6 but slept through!!!
Thank you thank you!!
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I'd do something like this to start with, then tweak after a few days:
3hr A
45 min nap
3hr A
Uncapped nap
4hr A
~11-11.5hr night depending upon nap length.
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Hello!! Im back with an update!!
So for the last two days I have been cutting his first nap short. But he doesnt seem able to do a long PM nap.
I have tried the following....
Wake
3A
3A
4A
Yesterday he took a 1.20 PM nap after a 3A so I moved BT earlier. And a 45 min Nap (Capped) in the morning.
Today I did 3A in the morning he did 45 min and woke on his own. After 3A I tried to put him down for his PM nap but he was just playing all over his crib. I tried leaving him to tire himself but after 45 minutes I came in to help him. He finally fell asleep after 1 hour (so 4A in total before his PM nap) He woke up after 1.05 (so was he UT?) I dont understand this boy!! He was totally tired, he rubbed his eyes but I only got this short nap...
Should I keep trying with the PM nap until he gets accustomed to it?
I almost forgot!!!! Peter slept 8 straight hours yesterday!!! I have no words!!! Thank you thank you thank you!!!
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Ok, so give it a day or two more for the routine to settle in. You may find cutting the AM nap to 30min fixes your PM nap settling issues. It's possible the short nap is an OT one, have seen that a few times now.
Great you're getting better stretches at night :)
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Im back with an update and its not good :(
I tried to have the long nap at PM, without success. I have no idea why he is so difficult to put down in the afternoon. I have tried to wind down 30 minutes before and he almost falls asleep on my arms but as soon as he hits the crib he rolls over and stands up!!
In the morning for his AM he is so tired I just put him in his crib and he falls asleep, but he is now only sleeping for 45 min. Could this be because his night sleep improved so now he can do more A ? He seems tired at 3A (rubbing his eyes and looking far in the distance) and as soon as he hits the crib he falls asleep but only for 45 min. This would be ideal if he then took a good PM nap!!! But he just wont do this!!! Should I keep trying until he takes a good PM nap?
Should I make his second A time longer to see if maybe he will settle for his nap?
From 3 days of lousy naps, we're back to square 1. Totally OT, but to make matters worse today he woke at 5.40 and just wouldnt go back to sleep. And for some reason he has gone back to horrible SA and wants me to stay by the crib until he falls asleep. Is this normal? For SA to be back? The only explanation I can think of is that for his PM naps when he wont settle I stay by his side just so that he wont stand or roll over and he gets to nap!!!
I tried WIWO. He calms down as soon as he sees me, turns sideways and closes his eyes. But as soon as I move an inch from the crib he screams. I am now trying Gradual withdrawal.
When he is this OT should I just let him Nap for as long as he wants?
Thanks!!!!
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SA can come back, and does quite a few times from my experience. It often coincided with wonder weeks for us: http://www.thewonderweeks.com/mental-leap-7/
Here ar some tips for helping SA pass: Tips for seperation anxiety
What is happening in the afternoon? Complete refusal of any nap, short OT nap?
Any teeth moving about?
Where to go from here? Well you could try capping the AM nap at 30 min so he's more tired at the PM nap. You could go back to long AM short PM by pushing his AM A time longer and APing the PM nap.
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Hi I just wanted to offer my support and let you know that I'm following you every step of the way. I can't get a long pm nap either. I think your doing slightly better than us, last night out of exhaustion and desperation I slept in the cot with lo- not a good look or comfortable!
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Hi thanks for your reply!!
There is no PM nap. For two days he wouldnt take a nap. The first night it was hell and we ended up bronging him to bed. The second night of no naps he slept from 7pm - 12 and then from 12.15 - 7am so almost STTN. Was this because he was so tired that he slep so well?? I just dont get it. The next day he was totally sleepy. He rubbed his eyes all day and just seemed like he needed a nap the whole day. It seems to me the better he sleeps the more he needs sleep, is this normal?
Im having lots of trouble putting him down. At nap time for his AM nap he usually falls asleep as soon as he hits the crib (like he had no sleep at all, even when his nights got better). For his PM nap as soon as he hits the crib he laughs and starts to play. I have left him to himself and this can go on for an hour or more. Him just standing and playing in his crib. On the other hand if I lay him with me in bed he we will fall asleep. He tries to play but he soon gets it that its time for nap. Is it better to bring him to bed so that he naps or just let him skip it.
For the night... We do wind down and he is totally ready for bed. As soon as I put him down. He starts crying and doesnt want me to leave. This can take up to an hour or more. He ha stopped being an independent sleeper in that he need me to be by his side to relax and fall asleep. I have tried gradual weaning for the last week and its just not working. Im thinking of giving wiwo a try. Is he too young for this ? He is now 11 months...
Thanks!!
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Hi Clemmy!!! Thanks for your support!! I hope you are doing better with your LOs sleep. I try no to bring my DS in bed with us, but some nights its just so hard not to give in. I have also thought about getting in bed with him, the only problem is I don't think Ill fit in.
I just read my previous post and realized it made no sense. (Probably because it was written at 3 a.m in desperation!!)
Anyway, we are doing everything we can to get him to take his two naps. Strange as it is, for the last two days he refused his PM nap, and with just a 1.5 AM nap he slept from 7-10 then 10-12 then 12-7 (which I know 3 NW are still too much) but after what we've been through it seems like he slept for 20 hours!!!
He still wants us by his side at BT and to get back to sleep while his NW are happening. So I am planning on starting some WIWO with him. He was an independent sleeper from 5-9 months so I believe we can get it back!!!
Its hard. Specially when you know so many people that are doing Controlled Crying and its working for them in just 2 or 3 days. Or when I tell people that Peter is still not STTN and they open their eyes WIDE and tell me its time for him to be trained, like its my fault.
Anyway, just wanted to let you know Im here if you want to talk!!!
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Hi hun, he really might be pushing towards one nap now -- I found with my dd1 that we got to that same point where she just wouldn't take a second nap no matter what, so I ended up just pushing the first one out as far as I could and doing an early bed time on those days. You might also find that he'll go back and forth -- some days you'll have 2 and some days you'll have 1 until you're firmly on 1 nap. What's your A time in the morning looking like now?
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Hi thanks so much for your reply!! I'm thinking that's also his case.
At the moment I'm having trouble with everything related to sleep. Its impossible to put him down to sleep. If I put him down during the day he will just stare at me. As soon as I leave the room I can hear him rolling over and playing. If I wait long enough the laughter will turn into tears. I wait until he really needs me and come in. He stops crying. I lay him down and all this starts again. Today we did this for 3 hours. At the end I was in tears. Its exhausting. I was so mad at him. I hate feeling this way. I hate to have any sort of negative feeling towards him. I don't know whats wrong.
Is this the way he refuses his naps? This happened after an 4A. He was clearly tired. But he just wont go to sleep. The most I got was a little eye closing when I rubbed his lovey to his face.
You would think he was UT when I put him down, but the thing is this happened at 3 a.m last night also. He slept from 7-3 a.m and then woke up and started crying. I came in and he just stared at me. Totally awake. And then we did the stare, leave, cry, come in, stare dance for 2 hours!!! Until he finally lost it, I took him out to calm him and he finally fell asleep.
I have tried staying by his side. But he just stares at me or gets up. So I am forced to leave.
I'm at a total loss.
I hate being so down and negative. But I have to say this forum is so important to me. I'm not someone who shows her feelings when she's down. And for the past weeks this forum for me has been the place where I can finally let my guard down. So thanks for that.
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(((hugs)))) sweetie, I have definitely been where you are, that awful feeling of frustration and helplessness. I would try some more A time before your nap and see where it gets you. The tiredness could be because he's used to sleeping at that time, the tiredness could also be because of the NWings. I think that you also might be in the midst of something developmental -- sometimes those milestones can make things pretty crazy for a bit.
What did your day end up looking like yesterday?
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Hi Thank you so much for your support
Here are our last 3 Days...
7W
10.30 S
11.30 W
3.00 S
4 W
7.30 S (NW 12, 4.30)
8W
2.30 S
3.40W
7.30 S (NW at 3 until 5)
7W
1.30 S
2.10 W (He woke up crying which is how I can tell he was OT. Tried settling in crib but it just wouldnt work. I brought him to bed. He is now sleeping next to me as I write this. I have never done this before but I think its better for him to get a good nap)
Its just as if he forgot how to fall asleep. Like he doesnt know what he is doing in his crib!!! Thats what I felel like when he is staring at me; Like, Ok woman now what? How could he just forget?
If this is development I really really hope it ends soon...
Anyway... Thanks for your help and your kind words!!
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I brought him to bed. He is now sleeping next to me as I write this. I have never done this before but I think its better for him to get a good nap
I think you did exactly the right thing here, he does need to catch up on sleep.
It looks like you're getting shorter naps on 3.5 hours which would indicate the need for more A time -- but then when you did 4 hours he wouldn't go to sleep forever, which made it seem like that was also not enough. But there's no way that 3-5 NWing could be an undertired one with as little sleep as he got during the day. (Sorry, thinking out loud here.) It feels developmental to me -- I don't know what else would explain a NWing that long that couldn't be from being UT.
If you get a halfway decent night, I might try A time of about 4 tomorrow again (maybe 4.15?) and see what happens. I'm going to ask some other folks what they think about the long NWing and see what they think.
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Hi!! I also think is developmental. He's been acting out on me during the day. He is clingy and fusses a lot. I took him to the Drs Yesterday to have him checked out because its so unlike him. He said he is fine physically, which of course was great news. He said it was developmental and that he was testing my boundaries. At first I thought Wonder Week. But this leap has been over for a week now. So I don't know but I cant seem to find any other answer.
Since the Dr gave me the Ok on him being well. I have strated tonight with WIWO. I did a little reading in the forums about it. I was doing a kind of tweaked version of it and it was just not working. Tonight I have started the following.
1.Put him down for the night.
2.WO. (Evaluate crying. If its I need you cry, count to 10)
3. WI (I use Shh to soothe him, lay him down, calm him for a few seconds)
4. WO (Repeat)
Does this sound right o you?
Also for naps do I keep this up even if he is just playing?
Thanks!!!
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Your WI/WO sounds right. For the naps, if he's just playing, leave him to it -- but track it so you can use it adjust your A time.
I did some asking around, and those long NWings seem to come from UT, but also from development (some of those jumps can take awhile, could just be that your in the midst of a big one), teeth, or even OT sometimes. Wondering if that giant long one you got the other night was just some overtiredness from your day? I would probably do whatever you can to get some decent sleep in him during the day because it will help your nights.
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I'm back with and Update!! First of all thank you for all your support and advice...
I hope I don't jinx myself here, but here is what is going on lately...
I started WIWO as I wrote before... I figured that I had to solve his Prop issues first and then tackle the NW. His Prop was basically me staying in the room so that he could fall asleep. It was terrible. He would close his eyes and fall asleep, but as soon as I moved and inch (I'm not kidding) he would scream and search for me. He was an independent sleeper from 4 to 8 months (before SA hit us hard) so I figured I had a good chance of getting it back.
I wrote in my last post the method I used...
I would like to explain in a little more detail in case it helps someone else...
First of all to do WIWO you have to be determined to do it, even if it gets rough. You CAN NOT give in and do a half prop (for me that was sometimes staying in the room and Shhsing), or just stop after and hour. That would have been a waist of time and tears... But be certain if your LO was and independent sleeper before it will work and it will change your life.
So I went on like this.
First night
1. Routine, lay in crib, say good night and sleepy words for about 2 minutes. Leave the room (Expect immediate tears).
2. Count to ten walk in, lay down in crib, sushh, leave.
You have to leave fast. Don't linger. What I learned (and I was mistaken about this) is that you are teaching to self soothe, not to fall asleep. Theres a difference and once I understood that It became clearer to me that what I was doing was rigth. The idea is not for him to fall asleep in the process and while he cries (although he will fall asleep during WIWO), but to be able to soothe himself while you are not in the room with him...
3. After you leave expect crying. Count to ten again and come back in, lay down, sushh and leave.
I had to do this for 2.30 hours the first night. I think I came in more than 200 times. My back was killing me, I started to bend by the knees cause I just couldn't take it anymore. At some point he just got it that I would be coming back and leaving and his crying started to change. This is important. If at some point he seems to stop crying (even if its just for a second), then stop counting and start over. Only come in when he is crying. My DS has this manta cry where he babbles angrily and sounds like an old man. Sometimes he stops, some times it escalates into crying and this is when I count and come in.
4. At the end, I came in layed him down, and he closed his eyes and I left.
5. He woke up that night at 10, 1, 4. I did Exactly the same process each time. I went over it with DH so that we were both doing the same thing each time. He took the 10 and 4 shift.
At the NW I started the WIWO straight away (no night night or sleepy words). So I just counted to 10 went in and layed down.
6. The next day for naps I did the same. It took me and hour.
7. At night (2NW night) I did it for 45 minutes. He woke at 10 (2 WIWO) and then at 1 (2 WIWO)
8. For naps the next day. I layed him down say the sleepy words 2 Min's. Left. Silence.
9. For the night. Sleepy words. Leave silence.
He has STTN ever since. I can not believe it. If you read this whole thread you wont believe also!! I keep waiting for it all to go wrong. But it seems to be working. I know if anything goes wrong I will do WIWO again. I will never let myself get caught up in props again.
At night sometimes he cries for 5 seconds or more. I wait. And then silence. You can not imagine how much life has changed. He is also more rested during the day, and therefore happier.
I just wanted to say thank you again.
I am certainly no expert. This is just what worked for me. So if you find something wrong with what I did, please post so that others don't make the same mistake. I hope this helps another parent lookinf for answers.
Cheers!!!
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Woohoo! Nice work! You did great, you figured out what he needed -- and it sounds like he was able to figure out that if he needed you, you would come back to be there. :)