BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: monopod on February 27, 2013, 10:57:36 am
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Hi all, I'm resurrecting my dormant babywhisperer account! Was quite active on the site a few years ago and then things got crazy when I went back to work, and I stopped posting.
I gave birth to my second child, a daughter, in October last year and am back hoping for some wisdom! I really hope that someone will be able to provide some insight or advice.
Basically we're going through the 3-4 month sleep regression at the moment and it seems like things just keep getting worse.
I'll start by saying that I've done things differently this time around: having my first in school (so school runs etc.), doing a course while on maternity leave that means I need time to do reading and essays, and generally wanting to be less obsessed and anxious about routines and APing etc., because I felt that I hadn't really enjoyed the early days with my firstborn and had also inadvertently negatively affected my milk supply and his weight gain through not feeding as often as I might otherwise have.
My daughter was very different from my son from the word go -- she fed like a champ right from the recovery room, has been very chilled out, and was a fabulous sleeper... All the way until 12 weeks (she is now nearly 19 weeks). At first I thought it was developmental and temporary (she had suddenly become very vocal and much more mobile). Since then, however, we've had more and more night wakings and I am desperately trying to figure things out!
I know there is probably little point in comparing her behaviour from several weeks ago, but basically she used to go down for the night no trouble at about 9+pm, and then wake 5+ to 6 hours later, followed by about 3 hours later, and I'd then get her up at 7+/8 to start the day. She actually slept through from about 10 to 7 when younger too.
There have been a number of changes since then and I'm not sure what is significant and how exactly they are connected so will list everything here. Sorry it's a bit jumbled; probably my zombie brain!
- She has become quite distractible during daytime nursings and even not that interested in nursing in the morning and after her morning nap so I thought she might be making up for it with milk at night (cue vicious cycle). So while we're loosely following a 4h EASY, often it turns into EAES to help get her dozy and get more daytime calories into her. I also cluster feed her in the evenings. I then got worried that I had become a prop as we often ended up feeding to sleep, but I have now tackled that and she has been going to sleep pretty much independently for the past few days (yay!) She also managed the 30-min transition all by herself in a nap at home yesterday (more on naps in a bit).
- We have brought bedtime earlier to 7+/8+pm. For a while she continued to have her long stretch of 5+h in the first part of the night, followed by 3+h and then 2+h (I don't understand this by the way...). But now she's waking every 2+ to 3h, with an even shorter interval in the early hours (4-6am)!
- She has also over the past fortnight been waking 1-2 h after falling asleep, and nothing will get her back down for any decent period of time other than the breast. I understand this usually means OT and so have been trying to tackle that too (she's not a great napper, more on that later). We have been trying PUPD (shh-pat close to useless) but I'm not convinced it hasn't been making things progressively worse since we started a few days ago ( I remember seeing at least improvement when we first used PUPD with my son). She is going back down a lot quicker but just keeps on waking and waking, until I feed her. She'll then go back to sleep, but still wake every 3h or so thereafter.
- On naps. We are often out as my husband now works from home and it's difficult for him if we're around. Because of my son being at school the baby also has to fit around school runs and other necessary trips -- basically I no longer feel like I have the luxury of working on naps at home. What usually happens is that she falls asleep in the car to/from the morning school run (currently after an A time of about 2h), I transfer her to the stroller where she usually has a good long nap of 2h give or take 15-30mins. Naps for the rest of the day are often more touch and go though. Sometimes in the stroller, sometimes in the car, sometimes in the sling, sometimes at home. Sometimes I get good long naps, sometimes she's a chronic catnapper. Sometimes she wakes from catnaps happy as anything and other times she's super cranky. So we're still working on that. She had a couple of days recently with great naps though and I saw hardly any difference with her nights.
- Have considered other props... She used to accept a dummy but has refused one for weeks now. She is still swaddled (is a swaddle a prop??) as she wakes herself up otherwise by rubbing her face and pulling her hair.
Not sure what else to say! Please let me know if anything doesn't make sense or if I need to provide more information...
Help?
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Hi there, and welcome back! :)
4mo can definitely be a trying time. There is typically a big GS around this time, so I'd think if she is waking and waking and only goes back for some time after a feed, that she's likely hungry. I do wonder if she is snacking a bit during the day and not really taking good feeds. I know at this age it can be hard to get good feeds because of the distractibility, but if you're feeding every couple hours on an EAES, she might just be snacking as well. It's so hard with another child around, but can you try to feed her in a less stimulating environment and see if that helps? The other thing to try would be to feed, wait 45min-1hr, do a top up feed, and then not feed again until her proper feeding time. This would take away from the E right before sleep, so that she's still hopefully taking full feeds when needed.
The swaddle isn't a prop and if she's not rolling over, I'd leave it for now. Lots of babies are swaddled til 6mo+. It's hard to know if the NWs are connected to routine as it doesn't seem super consistent (totally normal for a second child until you can get to two solid naps and then one). I'd say the one thing you could do is really work at settling her other than the breast if she wakes before 3-3.5 hr in the night. Once you get the daytime feeds back on track and she's not likely in a GS anymore, if she's settling on her own at BT and other times in the night, those feeds should lengthen back out.
What do you think?
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Thanks so much for your reply and for the ideas Katie. :)
Last night was ghastly! We had relatively good naps yesterday, a super-long one of 2.5h after 2h 15min A time, then 1h 20 min (extended from 35min with BF) after 2h 20 min A time (I'd started wind-down way before but she kept deciding she wasn't ready to sleep and wanted to play and then probably got OT in the process), then a 25min catnap in the evening (5.35 to just after 6). I got her down for the night by 8 (started at 7.30) which was probably too late but I was trying to have dinner with my son rather than disappearing as I have been for several nights now. We then got wakings at 9, 10.45 (tried shhing and PUPD but eventually fed), 1.55 (again tried to settle without BF but then fed), 5 (fed), 6.20 (!) (exhausted so just fed). Gah.
Those wakings were definitely not just hunger though some likely were, and we probably have OT as well as other issues mixed up in there??
I'm thinking a few things:
Routine-wise consistency is definitely not as straightforward as when we only had one child, but her subsequent A times after the morning one are probably too long. As I mentioned the morning nap is typically in the stroller (transferred from car seat) because she falls asleep on the morning school run and anything else is likely to wake her up. I've been trying to be at home for her second nap and have been trying to get her down as soon as I see sleepy signs, but I keep getting short naps and I wonder whether it's OT or a prop issue.
Do you know what A times are typical for subsequent A periods for a 4 month old? If she's had a good nap in the morning after 2-2.5 h A time, I ought to be able to aim for at least 2h, right? Part of the trouble is that she seems to take so long to settle that we end up OT but if I start too early she's UT!
Props. I think we may still have a prop problem; not sure what your thoughts are? Although I am managing to get her down in her cot before she is out (and she has definitely shown that she can do it from fully awake) I am still finding that I need to BF before a nap.
At night does it matter whether I put her down awake or asleep, if I am endeavouring to get her down awake for naps and at bedtime?
With regard to your specific suggestions, I'd say I'm definitely going to give lengthening out feeds a try. Perhaps she is associating sleep with BF too much, as I said above. I had thought that she was taking good feeds overall (esp before naps as she's tired then and not a busybody like at other times), but I can see that I may inadvertently have been setting her up to snack. I'll try feeding at 4h intervals only today and see what happens; it surely can't be worse than last night!
On settling without a feed if it's been less than 3-3.5h since the last one, we've been trying that with PUPD but ahe just screams inconsolably, settles, then 10 minutes later she's up again :( (and repeat till she gets fed, whereupon she *usually* settles). Do you have any ideas? I'm wondering whether PUPD is the right option here, or whether I should just feed her and use a different method like gentle removal, single side feeding (I usually offer second side unless she's out).
I was also wondering about gas but find it hard to burp her at night. Either she doesn't at all, or holding her over my shoulder wakes her up and then she gets upset and wants the boob again, but if I don't burp her sometimes she spits up in bed.
Don't you wish babies had read the sleep instruction manual and were agreeable to following the instructions :p
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Oh just thought of one more thing. I'd assumed that it wasn't a growth spurt as this had been going on too long but looking at my log I can see that it got even worse just under a week ago, so perhaps we might see a bit of improvement next week!
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Just been reading about wonder week 19 (again; got the book with my son and mostly forgot about it till now)! Have you heard of it? There are definitely some 'oh yes!' moments there... Wonder if it genuinely is too good to be true that 'Once the baby goes through the developmental spurt, the sleep regression will be over.' ... If it is a long drawn-out developmental whatever I hope she reaches her end-goal reaaaaaaalllly soon! :D
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LOL, there could definitely be some WW issues going on. I'll hope she finishes soon too! ;) Yikes on the night, those are so exhausting. :(
Do you know what A times are typical for subsequent A periods for a 4 month old? If she's had a good nap in the morning after 2-2.5 h A time, I ought to be able to aim for at least 2h, right?
Yeah, I would think she'd be able to do about 2hr, at least. Average A for 4mo is 1:45-2hr, so she seems on the high side. But, if she can do 2-2.5hr in the morning and then do a good nap of 2hr or so, I'd think she could handle it again.
Props. I think we may still have a prop problem; not sure what your thoughts are? Although I am managing to get her down in her cot before she is out (and she has definitely shown that she can do it from fully awake) I am still finding that I need to BF before a nap.
It's hard to say, it can be different for all babies. Since she can do the long naps, it seems as if she's capable of transitioning, so doesn't really have a prop issue, but the day and night can be different stories. Does she transition for naps in the crib or are those always short ones?
At night does it matter whether I put her down awake or asleep, if I am endeavouring to get her down awake for naps and at bedtime?
Do you mean in the MOTN after you've fed her?
I'll try feeding at 4h intervals only today and see what happens; it surely can't be worse than last night!
Will be interested to hear how it goes. I don't think you can tell anything off of one day though, it needs to be a pattern of at least a few days to a week. And, remember that some BFd babies don't strictly go a full 4hr between feeds until they're started on solids, so you may still need to offer that top up feed 45min-1hr after the initial feed, but at least that won't be right before nap time.
On settling without a feed if it's been less than 3-3.5h since the last one, we've been trying that with PUPD but ahe just screams inconsolably, settles, then 10 minutes later she's up again :( (and repeat till she gets fed, whereupon she *usually* settles). Do you have any ideas? I'm wondering whether PUPD is the right option here, or whether I should just feed her and use a different method like gentle removal, single side feeding (I usually offer second side unless she's out).
This is tough. Usually, if they wake again right away it does signal hunger or discomfort, but she likely doesn't need to be fed more often than 3-3.5hr. :-\ Could it be that PUPD is a bit too stimulating for her? Have you tried something more like shh/pat or just settling her in the crib? Or, maybe stay with her after she settles with a hand on her for 15-20min to help her get into a deeper sleep.
I was also wondering about gas but find it hard to burp her at night. Either she doesn't at all, or holding her over my shoulder wakes her up and then she gets upset and wants the boob again, but if I don't burp her sometimes she spits up in bed.
By this age, I was able to just gently sit my two up on my lap, resting their side against my chest and rub their backs (either in circles or from bottom to top). It was enough to get them to burp, but not enough to wake them. It could definitely be discomfort that's causing her to wake so much. No signs of reflux or anything, right?
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Thanks so much for responding to my posts Katie! Wow, today was fun. I had all these good intentions but she had other ideas! After a great 2h 20 min morning nap I got her down for a second nap after exactly 2h A time, without nursing her, but she did consent to take her dummy for a few seconds to suck off some energy.
And then she woke 20mins later and I couldn't get her back down :( I tried BFing her but then she decided she was happy and would rather play! I gave up and gave her some really low-key A time then tried again as soon as she looked vaguely tired, but everything after that was a total disaster... She had two, get this, FIVE MINUTE naps which I again needed to nurse her for, until I BFed and held her to sleep for a full 1h 20mins at the end of the day in a desperate attempt to get her some sleep!! Tonight I had to nurse her to sleep again after several days of her being able to fall asleep in her cot without the boob.
Best laid plans and all that...
Sorry i woukd quote but I'm on my phone and can't seem to do it...
I don't know what was going on with that 20min nap in the early afternoon but it totally scuppered the rest of the day. Normally if she's OT she has a 30-35 min nap... Can't have been UT can it, after 2h A time?? She seemed tired enough!
I do think she has a problem transitioning in her cot. I don't think she's ever had a long nap there, although she sleepa easily enough in her snowsuit in her stroller and has also done long naps in the sling and in her Moses basket (ages ago; she's too long for it now). Maybe that's the prop issue... I would say movement, but she will sleep through in her stroller without me having to push it, so... i did wonder whether she was particularly snug in her snowsuit... Maybe she's cold?? Can't be though, she's positively sweaty sometimes!
Yes, I meant in the middle of the night after I've fed her :)
About PUPD, I do think it may be too stimulating for her actually. Trouble is, we didn't seem to be having any luck with shh-pat; she wouldn't stop crying at all. I already stay with her for the first 20min or so as she sometimes needs my help (I stroke her head and forehead)...
No signs of reflux, thankfully. I tried what you suggested tonight re. the burping but got nothing out of her despite the huge amount she ate just before bed!
Keeping my fingers crossed for tonight...
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We're already getting off to a good start! She couldn't settle, I ended up nursing her again, she woke up after 40mins and I tried to soothe her in her cot to no avail; she was seriously fighting her swaddle so I took her out and put her in a sleepsack instead, she let off a lot of gas... Now it's not even 10pm and I am feeding her again!!
Maybe it is gas and the swaddle too... *frantically looks for culprits* Just ordered a convertible woombie that I hope will help her transition there...
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(((Hugs))) hon, it seems like something else might be going on with all that trouble. A 20min nap and then such little sleep the rest of the day seems like discomfort to me. Is there anything you've eaten differently that could be causing her some gas/tummy issues? No teeth working their way through (as if you need something else, right)? I do wonder if she could go a bit longer than 2hr after such a long morning nap, but typically 20min is discomfort rather than UT. You may want to start waking her after 2hr of a nap though, as Tracy did seem to think that a longer one can either throw the day off or take from night sleep (not after a terrible day, mind you, but maybe to start off the day, iyswim).
She might sleep better in the stroller because it's a smaller space and she's cozy in the snowsuit. If that's the case, I'd probably keep the swaddle. I love Woombies, too! :)
Totally fine for her to fall asleep in the MOTN after a feed, esp as you're working on independent sleep during the day and BT. Once she's got that down, the NFs should start taking care of themselves on their own and if they don't, it should be a bit easier to tackle them. Again though, I wouldn't start feeding every 1-2hr, as that is definitely a prop issue (last night doesn't count... a night that bad is an exception).
As for shh/pat, you may just have to tweak it. Some babies genuinely don't care for it. You can stroke her forehead, pat/rub her thigh or tummy, lay one arm across her from hip to other shoulder and tap the shoulder, etc, etc. If you think PUPD is too stimulating, try to find a way to just settle her in the crib.
FX for a better day found night for you! :)
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Hello! Sorry for the delay responding :)
No teeth, but possibly gas... not sure about whether it might have been linked to food I ate as I've had bowel trouble ever since the (caesarean) birth!
Yesterday we had decent naps, but unfortunately we seem to have gone back to nursing to sleep (though I don't feel as worried about this as I did last week as I *know* she can fall asleep independently). I kept the morning nap to 2h and finally managed to get her down for her next nap 2h 20 mins later; she woke after 35 mins though but I managed to extend it through BFing and she slept for 1h 25mins in the end. Catnap was in the car on the after-school club run, 35 mins. I got her to bed at a good time, but then it all kind of turned into a bit of a farce ::)
Basically she kind of dozed off during her bedtime feed, but awoke after I put her to bed. And then she decided that she did. not. want. to. sleep. From 1940 to 2100 (!) she alternated between being totally adorable and making these funny happy little noises in her cot, to getting yowly and complainy - only to go back to being all cute when I went to tell her in no uncertain terms that it was bedtime! I tried everything, leaving her to it (eventually cried but when I went to settle her she smiled sweetly and cooed at me :P), covering her eyes (she continued talking and then licked my hand! ;D)... Finally she was so tired at 9pm and really started fussing, and my husband made the mistake of taking her out of her cot, and then she had a bit of a meltdown and I ended up nursing her a few times before she finally went down properly at close to 11pm :(
She then woke at 2.20am and 4.50am and I fed her both times, before she woke for the day after 7.
Actually a better night than she's had for close to two weeks, but bizarre!
By the way, I think you're right, I think PUPD is too stimulating for her and she settles better in the cot (for me, anyway, my husband says it's the opposite for him; she screams louder when he leaves her in there), so we've abandoned that for the moment and I'm going to persevere with settling her with our version of shh-pat (involving mostly head-stroking).
Today we were out all day and she took her usual long morning nap in her stroller but I didn't manage to wake her in time as I was trying to get something to eat, so she ended up sleeping beyond 2h. Then she catnapped in the afternoon, 35mins after 2h 20min A time (probably OT?) and 1h after a further 1h of A time. She woke at 1640 and I tried to get her down for a catnap around 6 but she wasn't having any of it (smiling happily at me again) so I ended up abandoning the attempt. So we've got an OT baby on our hands again and she's just woken 45mins after being put to bed...
Might be a long night... :P
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(((Hugs))), it sounds exhausting, but she sure does sound like she's full of personality. :D Hope you got a decent night in the end. Let me know how you get on...
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Hi Katie :) Afraid we didn't have a good night for either of the past two nights, no! And baby had her jabs today so I'm not holding out much hope for tonight either...
I have, however, been thinking a lot. I've been trying to tackle things on so many fronts that perhaps I'm not persevering long enough with any single one. One thing that stands out to me, however, is that even when we've had good naps, we are still getting the night wakings a couple of hours after bedtime. I have also observed that if she gets through the first nap transition at 30 mins or so, she invariably doesn't make it past 45, and even if I've managed to get her to sleep independently at first, I often end up bfing to extend the nap.
Which makes me think that the nursing may well be more of a prop than I originally thought...
The other interesting thing is that last night, I fed her at 0110 and then she woke again crying at 0330. I didn't want to feed her again, but couldn't settle her back to sleep in her cot. She was quiet and alert but would cry every time I put her back down. I was exhausted so brought her to my bed, wrapped my arm around her and let her fuss. Lo and behold within 10 mins she put herself back to sleep without nursing...
She's just done exactly the same for this evening's catnap... She was crying and I lay down next to her and spoke to her calmly and held her close, breathing on her. She cried for a while but then just stopped abruptly, started talking to herself and then went to sleep sweetly and quietly, no nursing required.
Is this why parents co-sleep?? I don't want to replace one prop with something else I need to wean her off!
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(Btw she did another 20 min nap after a 2h second A of the day and then refused to go back down so i do think she needs that second A time to be longer!)
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Boo to the bad nights and the jabs... neither of those are fun. :( You never know though, some LOs sleep better after their jabs, so don't count it out yet.
Is this why parents co-sleep?? I don't want to replace one prop with something else I need to wean her off!
I don't know... it seems like most co-sleeping happens because it's easier to nurse/feed in the night, but it could also be due to closeness and comfort. I think it's actually a good clue for you though, in how to settle her and you don't necessarily need to replace one prop with another. I'd start using that when you try shh/pat with her and settling her in the crib. I've known a few moms who've got down really close to their LOs while shh/patting and either put their face next to baby's or been close enough so that baby can feel their warm breath on their head. This may help her settle initially and then associate shh/pat with going to sleep, so that you can gradually withdraw your closeness. What do you think?
And yes, she could well need more than 2hr A before the second nap. She seems to handle more than that just fine first thing in the morning, so she might just be a high A time baby.
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So we had a good catnap this evening and we didn't feed to sleep tonight either :) Just put her to bed in her cot and didn't need shh-pat, just did as you suggested and practically lay across her with my face right next to hers so she could feel me breathing on her. I got kissed and licked a lot! Think I have a very 'sucky' baby... This is going to knacker my back though... But I feel positive about it :) Will stick with it over the next week as best I can and see how we go!
Also going to work on identifying that best second A time of the day :)
Thanks for all your help Katie, I really appreciate it!
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Last night was better! I don't know if any single thing helped because as usual I changed a number of variables all at the same time:
- moved from miracle blanket to woombie
- managed catnap at the right time and shorter final A time
- did not feed to sleep
- managed to settle her in her cot at several wakings through getting in really close and letting her mouth me
We still had wakings in the hours after she was asleep in her cot (at 2015), but I managed to resettle quickly. I then fed her at her 2315 waking as it had been 4 hours. She woke again at 0110 and again I resettled her in her cot. She kept waking though and finally at 0230ish I brought her to bed with me (oops) :P. Fed again but at all other wakings between then and 6 I settled her without a feed.
My next step is to try and recreate the same conditions in her cot... I think she may need more blankets for instance as it's warmer in my bed! We will persevere...
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Yay we are also getting better feeds today :) any coincidence that she's also turned the wonder week 19 corner?? :)
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Sounds like progress and yay for turning the WW corner! I think you have good ideas for going forward. Is there a stool or something you can put beside the crib to help you settle her but not ruin your back? Maybe you can reward yourself with a massage when she's sleeping more independently!?! ;)
Keep me posted... :)
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Hi Katie :) After one better night it went to pot again the next... She woke practically every hour!! I was a zombie yesterday... It will take some time to bed in though so I'll try and evaluate after 10 days... Zzzzzzz
I really don't know why her nights are so disturbed now :( her first A times of the day have gone back to 1h 45 mins and she's not napping as long in the morning, and she's also seemed hungrier, although yesterday she was quite happy with waiting 5h for a feed thank you very much none of this bottle business :P
She's lucky she's cute!
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Oh dear, that sounds exhausting! :( Could it be discomfort of any sort? Typically, waking that often can be a sign of discomfort. (((Hugs)))
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I really don't know :( Last night after getting her asleep in her cot at 2030 I had to resettle her at 2100+, 2240 (fed her lying down and then fell asleep!! So back in cot at 0030), 0200+(fed), 0300+, 0517, 0540 (brought her back to bed with me and ended up nursing her as I couldn't resettle her otherwise). Then I woke her for the day at 0715.
Is it because she can't make it through the nighttime transitions by herself? Maybe she can't self-soothe because she's swaddled? She used to flip her head from side to side to send herself off to sleep but has stopped doing that so much. The soothing bit is getting quicker but she's still waking up at such frequent intervals... When will this end!
I know I haven't got her naps sorted (she's fighting naps like you wouldn't believe; I can't work out if she is OT or UT!) and that will be a contributory factor but gah, I'm shattered!
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I've just read on the Naps board that 35mins is a UT nap not OT! If that's true then all the battles I am having with her naps are maybe not because she is overtired; she's simply not ready to go to bed... She used to go to sleep independently if I had the timing right, chatting away to herself in her bed then drifting off, but I haven't been able to get her A times right for weeks now...
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(((Hugs))) hon, yes 35min can be UT, can also be OS; it's a tough one to call. But, if she was previously going down well and is now fighting, I would guess UT. This is a tough age for getting A times right.
I don't think being swaddled is causing her not to self-soothe. Typically, it helps until they're rolling, and I'd be hesitant to get rid of it right now, unless you think she'd start sucking her thumb or fingers.
Hope you can catch a small break this weekend!
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Thanks for being here, Katie... I am really grateful for the support :)
Yet another 35min nap this afternoon. Started wind-down at 1.75h as she was rubbing her face... But she fought it all the way until she crashed at the 2.5h mark (had to nurse her as she had gone berserk :( )Then we had to go out for a while and I tried for another nap when we were at 1.75h again... Then I realised I hadn't fed her and she was crying because she was HUNGRY, bad mummy!
So she fell asleep on the boob of course, and I tried to transfer her, but ping! The 15mins spent dozing on the boob bought her another hour...
But. She wasn't crying, so I just left her in her cot and went to reassure her each time she started to fret a little... And she's just put herself to sleep :) So increasingly I'm thinking it's an A time issue leading to a vicious circle of bad afternoon naps, nursing to sleep, OT and consequent NWs. I guess I just have to do this by more trial and error?
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Well, we're past the 35 min mark and she's through it with no problem... Will see if she makes it through 45!
Edit: well, she slept for 50mins and woke up crying. Tonight bedtime has been easy; she didn't feed to sleep (not OT), was relaxed throughout, and fell asleep pretty much independently. Will see what the night holds...
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FX!! :)
I guess I just have to do this by more trial and error?
Probably... I often kept an EASY log for a week or two at this age to try to find a pattern and stick with it. It certainly seems like you're already doing that a bit by just watching her.
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Hi :) How are you going now?
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Hi becj and katie :) the past few days have flown by!
Well, the last night I posted about ended up being quite rubbish despite her not being OT and falling asleep independently. I still haven't found a pattern as such; the quality of her sleep often doesn't seem to correlate with what you think it would!
Since last week we've had an improvement in nights, I think. But it's been quite erratic and I'm hanging in there to try and see if we can't get some consistent results. What I am very confident about now is that she can absolutely put herself to sleep cheerfully and peacefully if I get the timings right, which makes me feel much better about letting her nurse to sleep if she needs to (e.g. if overtired). I realised over the weekend that she might in fact be cold in her cot, so we've increased the temp in the house and I've given her an extra blanket too. I'm trying to tank her up as much as possible towards the end of the day and that seems to help. I still haven't sorted out that last bastion of afternoon naps, though -- possibly the last piece in the puzzle?? She consistently gives me 35 or 45 minute naps regardless of preceding A time, although she can do a long morning nap no problem. Most of the time she wakes up happy though; should I just roll with it??
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She consistently gives me 35 or 45 minute naps regardless of preceding A time, although she can do a long morning nap no problem. Most of the time she wakes up happy though; should I just roll with it??
Is this for the 3rd nap - if so, its probably fine to be a catnap and just do BT after a shorter A than the rest of the day.
We found tanking up and independent sleep were pretty important at this age in terms of reliable sleep.
What does her day look like now?
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Oh not just for the 3rd nap, unfortunately... Though I did manage to get a 55 min nap out of her yesterday with some wake to sleep intervention...she often wakes very happy and bouncy so I wondered if our energies were best placed on trying to extend those afternoon naps...
The odd thing is, she acrually seems to nap better on ridiculously long A times! I can't seem to get her down for a nap any earlier than 2.5h A time; she's happy and sprightly and fights all the way if I try to get her down earlier (even going to the bedroom for a quiet wind-down, the slightest sign that I'm preparing to put her in bed and she starts to squall! Yesterday it was 2.75h. She's 5 months next week and although she does seem to be able to handle a high A time, that does seem excessive.
I'm beginning to think that the answer lies more in her feeds. She's having a pretty good night so far, touch wood, and I realised that what I did differently yesterday was resist feeding her 'in between', so I had loads of milk just before bed. Watch this space...
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2.5hr is the mid point between 2 and 3hr and at 5 months (between 4 and 6), she's basically just on track to drop to 2 naps at 6 months. I wouldn't say its particularly high, a little higher than average but not drastically so.
Any chance overstimulation is a factor in that PM nap being short?
Loads of milk at BT helped us too. I actually expressed after L went to bed so I could do a bottle of EBM as a topup after BF at the BT feed.
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Do you know, wood for trees and all that.. You're quite right about the midpoint being 2.5h; I feel a bit stupid :P I think so much time has gone by since I started trying to sort out her naps that her getting older has overtaken me!... Having said that, it is a struggle to get her down at 2.5h and she has slept better with longer A times, though frequently still wakes early, and frequently happy. It used to be 35mins but lately has been 45-55. I think this makes me feel better about letting her stay up longer though.
But get this: yesterday her afternoon naps amounted to only 55mins and 35mins and she had the best night she's had in a long time! She fell asleep independently, had a couple of wakings around 10pm (husband managed to resettle her quite quickly), and then she woke only at 1.50am and 5.30am :) the only difference was that I hadn't let her snack in the late afternoon so she had lots of milk at BT :)
The EBM sounds like a great idea that I would adopt if she would only consent to take a bottle :P
Overstimulation -- I had wondered that, but don't think it's the cause of the short napping...
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The EBM sounds like a great idea that I would adopt if she would only consent to take a bottle
LOL!
Overstimulation can give you short naps - LO will wake ready to go and not rested (DS was less coordinated and more eager to try things).
My DS was pretty happily dealing with a skewed day and longer than 3hr A times at 6 months, so you may find a longer A time in the AM or between naps suits her. BW is about listening to what bub needs. We have averages as a guide, but they're not always going to suit every child :)
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About overstimulation, I meant that I didn't think she was overstimulated rather than that I didn't think overstimulation caused short napping :) I will definitely keep an eye on that one though! Maybe, with some luck, as we get closer to the 3-2 nap transition, she'll start napping longer...
I will try not to be neurotic about fitting her into a box :) I guess I should just take her cues and not fret; I absolutely wouldn't mind her short napping if she was sleeping better at night though! We'll keep going and I'll keep observing and listening :)
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Ok, just checking ;)
Cues are good when you can see them :P I kind of used the clock to know when to start looking for cues or we'd have been in a right mess thinking every yawn or eye rub was time to put him down for a sleep or never putting him down at all...
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I find cues difficult too... Sometimes she gives me what I think are tired signs (e.g. rubbing face in your shoulder) when she's only been awake an hour so I think this can't be... Then other times she gives no signs at all (and I've been watching her closely) so it approaches the 2.5h mark and I think right, I think we need to start wind-down anyway, and then I end up nursing her to sleep after she's screamed and fought going down. I can't work out whether she's overtired or needs more waketime and I feel like if I could only get that first afternokn nap sorted then we might be able to tackle these continuing NWs...
Today was another bizarre one. She woke as usual at the 45min mark this afternoon and I managed to get her back down by nursing her, and she ended up sleeping 2h (had to wake her)! And then 2.5h later I tried for a catnap (although admittedly she didn't look tired at all) and finally gave up an hour later... I fully expected her to fall asleep while nursing but she was so happy and smiley and eventually put hersefl cheerfully to bed for the night after four hours A time!! Sigh... guess we're in for another night of multiple NWs.
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Cues are tricky with some - she's not spirited is she?
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Hi hon, just catching up here after a week away (I didn't desert you! ;)).
I know she *can* fall asleep independently, but do you think she is still depending on BF a bit? Just reading through the last posts, I was wondering if that may be a contributing reason to the napping transitions and NWs. Do you think if you stuck with shh/pat during those, she might start settling more on her own? (Brainstorming a bit here... not saying you have to do it.)
Also, is there anyway to APOP (a walk in the stroller or something) that CN after two good naps so you don't end up with so long to bed and have a better chance at a decent night? It gets so tricky when they're close to dropping it, but can be such a bugger if they don't get it.
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Hi Katie! You're absolutely right with the observation that I have nursing to sleep a little too handily in my back pocket :P Especially in the past week! I know I shoud be much more consistent in not doing that so thanks for the reminder! I did think that it might be a contributor but I think I felt ok about it because she could fall asleep independently so I convinced myself that it wasn't a prop...
Today she did another 45min nap (they all seem to be 45mins now rather than 35) but DH put her to bed so we avoided the BF to sleep scenario, hoorah! Not that it prevented her waking up at the 45min mark, alas. He was kind enough to share his 'secret technique' with me, haha (I'll try it tomorrow!) Then for the CN I did precisely what you suggested and APOPed! We had a family outing to the supermarket and she snoozed peacefully for half an hour in the sling. I think I might go out in the evenings more now that the weather is finally getting a bit better; it's got to be preferable to a screaming baby in a darkened room...
Becj, I didn't think she was spirited but then again I last took the questionnaire when she was tiny (at that point she was angel/textbook)... Since then she has definitely developed a spirited side though! :P
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Today she did another 45min nap (they all seem to be 45mins now rather than 35) but DH put her to bed so we avoided the BF to sleep scenario, hoorah! Not that it prevented her waking up at the 45min mark, alas. He was kind enough to share his 'secret technique' with me, haha (I'll try it tomorrow!)
This might be because she just hasn't totally learned to self-settle yet. I think if you stick with the 'secret technique' ;) for a good week or so, she might start doing better. (But, I totally know the need and temptation for a prop with the second LO, it's just different. So, don't feel like I'm trying to call you out... it was just something I noticed.)
I think I might go out in the evenings more now that the weather is finally getting a bit better; it's got to be preferable to a screaming baby in a darkened room...
Yes, for sure!!! :)
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Hi Katie I'm back for an update... Not much progress here! Or at least it seemed like we were making some and have slid back again, sigh! We were doing really well with not feeding to sleep t all for several days and then I got ill and it became the half-term holiday and the routine got disrupted and bam! The past three days her usual long morning nap on the go has either been shortened or become a catnap and then it's all been different afterward. NW-wise we are still getting multiple ones per night though it was quite good for a couple of nights a couple of days ago (of which more below).
Interestingly, the shortened morning nap has meant i have managed to get her to take a long afternoon nap! Still not in her cot where I want her to, but in the sling or stroller. Which is not great but actually still progress because before she would only catnap in there if she'd had a good morning nap. In terms of how it's affected the NWs, it seemed.to improve them when she had a good PM nap! Whch is great, except it's the one nap I can't reliably get :(
Tonight she's thrown another googly at me. She's been up wide awake for an hour. At first chattig and yowling loudly but not crying so i left her to her own devices at first. She got louder and started to fret so I went to her and she just stared at me with big eyes and tried to put herself back to sleep but wouldn't let me leave without starting to fret again. Eventually I fed her though I don't think she was actually that hungry! Have put her back in bed and i finally think after 1.5h she is going back to sleep...
Sigh.
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(((Hugs))), you'll get there! There are definitely positives in your update. :)
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I'm hoping that the next time I update it will be with good news!
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Will hope so too! But, don't feel bad if you don't and want to come here for more support!