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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: ZacsMumme on October 27, 2013, 01:51:49 am
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I think were possibly in them :-\
With a nap Z won't settle to sleep till 8.30-9 and is up at 7-7.30 (his usual WU) 1.5 hr nap ATM (I can cap but he hates being woken)
Without a nap BT is 5.30-6 and WU 7-7.30
BUT every 3 days to so he needs a nap, he can't last till 5.30 and I fear much earlier will result in EW anyway where he won't be able to then last again to 530
So...where do we go to from here?
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Welcome ;)
I started using car naps when it was like this... just 15-20 mins to take the edge off so we could get through dinner and off to bed.. .I found that she was much happier to be woken if she was going somewhere and not just mom telling her to get up ;)
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I would love it if Z could nap in the car. It's virtually impossible to get either of them to nap if the other kid is in the car though! Sometimes I can do car naps for T (2-1) as Z goes to his nanas/daycare etc but it's almost never I can get this for Z :-\
I gave him a nap today 2-3pm and he was 'ok' I think I timed it right for light sleep but that's so hard to do!
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I'm so glad our nap is gone. Months of waking crying from his nap and being a grouch most of the afternoon to only brighten up just before BT!
Sorry, not much advice, I don't plan DS's catch up naps he just takes one in the car if/when he is tried enough to nod off in the lulling environment, heater on, movement, radio... i give him 10 or 20 mins, helps if I wake him and say we are at the4 shop rather than at home though, home = upset, shop = fun.
But, what about an extra snack in the afternoon, maybe cake (some sugar energy) and a drink to help him through to BT? I did do one or two EBTs at 5.00 but our night is not as long as yours (6am to 6.30am WU)
If you feel like experimenting, DS did his total drop after a 2.5hr nap when he was ill so maybe do one longer nap every couple weeks instead of a shorter one every 3 days? Just a random, out there, idea.
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I just offered a nap every other day, and put up with the later bedtime until she was ready to go every day without :)
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I think we just increased the number of days between naps - DS didn't reallocate respond to capping either. Could you do 3 days then 4 days then 3 etc for now and then move to nap every fourth day when he's ready?
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Mmm good food for thought. He can already go 2-3 days without one. So we would be looking at 2x a week most likely and on these days how long would you give. On an hr one yesterday he didn't go to sleep till after 8.30 (BT 8 )
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Does he cope with capping?
I didn't cap in the end as he was just grumpy and lethargic until the normal time his nap would have ended. I let him take as long as he needed and just lengthened the time in between naps. Does that make sense?
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I did 1 hr yesterday capped but if I cap at the wrong time, or too early he typically is TERRIBLE afterwards :o if I don't cap he will nap for hours - so I have had to cap his nap since 1 nap as he's always napped his life away ::)
After a 2 hr nap at my mums last week he was up till 9pm hen up at 7 so the night was really short and we then get in that predicament of does he have a nap that day from the short night or not :-\
On the 1 hr nap yesterday he had this
WU 7.15/30 I just went in and he was awake.
Nap 1.45-3 but he wasn't asleep till 2
BT 8.15 (in bed at 8 and books) but not asleep till after 8.30 maybe 8.40 asleep?
WU I'm waiting but not sureif. He's just lying there awake :-\
On a NND he does this
WU 7.15/30
BT between 5.30-6
He usually does a 13-14 hr night with 1 brief ENW if daycare days or on the 2,3 NND
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Wow, that's a monster night! Maybe keep at an hour then but stretch the time between naps?
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Yeah he's been a good sleeper since the 2-1 and then he would do 3 hr naps and 12 hr nights ;) it won't last but he is very good at tacking on.
So that would mean 8.30 BT :o ugh.....maybe I. Should wake him at 7am to get a more reasonable BT?
* sorry I just realised did you mean stretch no of days between naps?
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Yup - you're heading for no naps ever so might as well get there asap!
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Honestly hun, when we got to the point that BT pushed out that far and we still had a normal wake time (leaving you with a short night and a very hard day without a nap), I just cut it out completely. We had the same issues as creations mentioned - brutal after I woke and just crabby all around.
It was a tough couple of weeks to get used to it and we had some very early bedtimes, but we came out the other side okay!
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I was afraid you would say that kara lol.
Tbh I think it would be easier in some ways to go CT but I'm terrified Z will get too OT. We used EBT to ward it off, and it works BUT given BT is EBT without a nap anyway I'm not sure how I'd ward it off if he started NW and ew if BT was already in the 5s... We get OT NW almost all NND - very brief sometimes not really awake he stays in bed. We sometimes also get a midnight NW or nt but touch wood they haven't occurred in a while and I wonder how much of them was related to him being sick.
Today he had a NND...BT 5.45 and NW 6.40 maybe I'll try stick with a short nap 2 x a week and see how it goes first. If he copes then the jump will be less horrid!
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I know this sounds back to front but I saw fewer NWs when the nap was gone. DS could not do NNDs, I tried and he was not only OT he was a *danger* - all his regular rules of life were totally forgotten (like he ran in a car park - never done that before or since) and would have terrible falls etc, really dangerous not just bad tempered. So I plugged on with the capped naps and utterly AWFUL mood for hours after capping, then NWs. Not pretty. Several months later when he dropped the nap (and was tired but no longer a danger to himself and others) he slept so much better at night (but when I say gone, he was getting 5 or 10 mins in the car a couple of times per week which I know you can't do). I suppose what I'm saying is the NWs won't necessarily get worse when you totally drop the nap.
Maybe making BT 5.30 rather than 5.45 each night would help? An extra 15 mins every day rather than switching between nap and NNDs?
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We do 5.30 or 5.20 even on his second NND. Usually on the first aftr a nap day it's 5.30-6 depending on his WU and how he is during the arvo. DH gets home from wk at 5.40 so I try to have Z asleep before he is home or it's terrible. Behaviour is suffering as a result of not seeing DH much though :( hence trying the 2 nap days a week first. They can Have los of 1-1 time those evenings.
Hugs on the dangerous behaviour. This is interesting as I think Z is a little more like that on his second NND in a row! :-\
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I had the same issues with DH coming home and dinner being a disaster at best too - so hard to manage it all while keeping the whole family happy.
I found the NWing got better once I pushed bedtime... Using a really early bedtime actually backfired for us after a couple of weeks and still will! I can do an EBT if needed but no earlier than 630pm or it will bite me with an early start to the day.. so long as BT is ~7pm, we get a 12hr night (or a bit more)... last night was a good example of a catch up after a couple of early mornings.. she was asleep at 715pm (woke briefly at 330am for a drink of water and was right back off).. she slept until 8am. Typically, she sleeps 7-645/7am now that we have been nap free for a while. Just like the shift to one nap, we had monster nights of 13 hrs for a short time.. then she adjusted ;)
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We'll last night was his second NND in a row and he had a 5.50 BT as he was pretty happy and had woken at 8am. He STTN which is not so common on NND ATM so hopefully he is adjusting slowly? I woke him/went in at 7.15 so I can get a nap today as he won't be getting one thurs or fri
I kind of like these nap days, so a) I get some relief and b) we get 1-1 time with Z which makes him so much more happier too YK? - he is very close to DH ATM and his behaviour is suffering when DH is away or he doesn't see him at night.
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Wow, sounds pretty smooth Sara! A great night hey?
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Oh no...he refused his nap today - chatted through it...but come 5pm we hit massive OT. In ended by 5.40 and delusional NW at 6.45 or so...I do to have any chance to give him a nap tomorrow as he has daycare. Ugh I think this is about to get real messy
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:( Oh dear, I thought it was going so well for you!
Sorry to hear that :(
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Oh pants! We're here to hold your hand through the mess.....
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Ugh and he is up earlier than usual. 6.30 he's quietly chatting in bed so ill leaven I'm till 7 but mmmm. We have daycare 1-4 pm and I m tempted to flag it to get the nap as he will be getting SO tired :-\
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let him go.. if he is knackered, he can catch a bit of sleep in the car.. put him to bed a bit early if you need to :)
It's a long process but if they can make it to 3pm, it's time to ditch the nap!
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Ok he napped. I just had to see YK? - but it's 8.45 and he's not tired uggghhhhhhh so I think we may have to just start to push through the OT now aye? I mean this nap has meant a 14.5 hr day so far!
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Help! We're going through something mad!
I think it's a mix of 1-0 , BBB , daycare, OT? , doing new scary things for him ie swimming but he won't sleep!
He's 'scared' of everything, calling us back over and over. Last night was a 30 min battle to sleep then 2 hr NW 12-2 wtf!!!! He has not ever slept this bad since he was a baby.
If he naps he's up till 9 but 6 pm Bt he is fighting now so I m not sure if it's of o r he is regulating.
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Hi honey
Hugs for the crappy 1-0 that is never ending!!! When we got to this stage that nap was robbing night sleep and days were 14+h long we moved to set BT. It was a really long process and he got so ot that we had 5.30 am ew and 13-14h days with no nap for months but he did eventually crash and sleep and slowly caught up with ot. He was doing 6.45/7.30- 7 before the clock change which set us back and is another story!
Isn't your z good with tacking on? I think we had it really rough cos ds is lsn and doesn't tack...have u tried set BT or 12h days?
This will pass too hon (although I didn't believe Vicki till it happened!) xx
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Hey veteran!
Yes, I agree - I wonder if his body is adjusting and he needs a later bedtime on a no nap day? Just 15mins might make a difference.
Are you spacing the no nap days out so that you get less naps too?
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Aishi thanks for popping on luv. Yes, he tacks on. Well...did. He seems anxious and scared v clingy etc so I m wondering if this is part developmental too, so 1-0 but fears and all the changes in his life are making the transition much tougher (even though initially he was ok YK) :-\
I don't feel he is OT. He is coping fantasticly on no nap days. A tired period around 3 but that's expected. He seems ok at BT, not melting down etc. but I do feel he is going to get OT with all this rubbish.
MJ&N I was going for 2 short nap days but even with these he is up all night ::) (happily takes the nap) so I'm tempted to just go CT, for our sanity.
So if WU is 7.30-8 should I aim for a 11 hr day or 10.5 to start with... Or more!
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No prob hon. Hope i can helped as much as youve helped me before!
Oh dear haven't really had the clingy call back phase : / but when i was St ds at 2.5 (so could have been dev and I didn't know) i did get call backs and used wiwo. What works wrt to asking me to stay with him even now is that I tell him I'll be back to check on him/ stay after doing xyz and he's usually out like a light within 5 mins...
The other thing I do every night is give him a kiss and a cuddle and when he's giving me a hug I ask him if he's ready to let go to which he usually says no and hugs bit longer then says ready and let's go himself. If I try to hurry him along it takes much longer iykwim?
Re nnds if he tacks on and since he's only in early stages of nap dropping I would go with 10.5h days esp if wu is as late as 7.30/8 to prevent him getting too ot. And as u know if u do go with set bt that consistency is key! xx
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He wanted a nap :-\ so he's gone to sleep at 1.50pm. I'm going to Wake at 2.30 to prevent late Bt...but when would you do Bt? Was thinking 12 hr day so 8pm?
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i did get call backs and used wiwo. What works wrt to asking me to stay with him even now is that I tell him I'll be back to check on him/ stay after doing xyz and he's usually out like a light within 5 mins...
There are times I've told DS I need the toilet and will come back to check on him, and yes he is usually asleep within a couple of mins.
Sara, sorry I'm not great at working out day lengths but I do know with mine I had to work out day length based on how much sleep he would have in 24 hrs. For us it was 2hr nap 10.5 hr night, then 1hr 45 nap and about 10 hr night so his max sleep was around 12hrs. Here then it was a 12 hr day when he dropped his nap but many do a 10.5hr day and a longer night.
I see you've mentioned developmental disturbances too, I would have thought that very likely with him just turning 3yo.
Good luck with the night!
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Arghhhhhhhh honestly I feel like knocking my head against a brick wall!
So woke him at 3 and he's in there calling us and it's 9.15pm. Went for 8 BT because we thought he may have been OT. Immediately regret it. Nope. ... I think we may have him all wrong and he is plain old Ut. Because he's in a bed now not a cot he doesn't muck around and play - he calls us and feels scared because he is looking around. :-\
So...DH and I are so over this...no more naps. I'm done. :(
I'm going to go with BT 10.5 to 11 hrs after WU...and wait for OT to hit. Then reassess....what do you think? (When I say OT I'm talking NT, ENW)
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I'm with creations - how much sleep does he need in 24hrs? I'd aim for half an hour earlier to bed to ward off OT.
There comes a time when naps=evil and it could be that you've just hit it!
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Hugs hon. Agree with pp about time for nap to go...I found with nap dropping that even 30 min nap meant 5.5-6 hba to BT....but he was still ot if that makes sense?
And strangely once we got thru the extreme ot and he was doing 11.5-12h nights he asked for ebt and also did odd nap days too and still sttn with normal wu....
I like your plan of 10.5-11h days. Hopefully since he does tack if u stay consistent with nnds he will be able tobpush thru ot quickly xx
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In the past he's done 12-13 total sleep but he's been sick all winter YK so that could pe part of it. He sleeps when he is sick.
But I'm finding with the nap he's up all night then does 10.5-11 so prob about 12 hrs. The nap is robbing total sleep. I do feel even on a NND ie today I'm going to maybe get this rubbish because part of me feels it's not just about sleep. :-\
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Well, if you stay consistent then at least his body will get a chance to get used to it and start expecting to sleep at the same time every day. Hopefully that will help.
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Well, if you stay consistent then at least his body will get a chance to get used to it and start expecting to sleep at the same time every day. Hopefully that will help.
Yes, I think this maybe what he needs. We were finally getting no ENW on NND when this started so he was prob ready and I ruined it with a nap ::)
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It's only obvious in hindsight lovely, we are all feeling our way through this parenting lark!
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:-* Hun
So today
WU 8 (short night)
BT went for between 6-6.30 but he was done before 6 so lights out was ~6.10 and he did a few half hearted callouts then went to sleep.
Fx for a solid night to start us off ;)
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FX for you. And sleepy vibes to Z.
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Vibes!
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Not going so well. I woke him when covering him up in his bed and think I interrupted his sleep because he woke and wanted to come see us at 10pm then ew at 5.45... Ugh....
So his night was broken but close to 12 hrs. His 13 hr nights seem to have gone :(
What should I go for today. I want to avoid a nap - quiet time at 1 BT 6?
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Hi hon
Sorry I've been awol- been having my own sleep shenanigans here ::)
I would aim to have asleep by 6 so pd a little earlier? Fxd for u hon and vibes for a long night xx
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DD1 did get to the point where she only needed 12hrs overnight, but there are some nights that she needs more. To make things consistent I set bedtime and let her sleep as long as she needs in the am (luckily I can!) and she self regulates. Now most nights she sleeps 12.5hrs, some nights more, some nights 12hrs.
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Thanks tink, so when you first went to no nap how long was her day? - did you ride out the OT?
Aishi thanks...I was thinking even 5.30 but maybe high risk ;)
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Sorry to hear it wasn't a great night.
Don't know if it helps but DS has a 12 hr day. I did do a couple of EBTs when he first dropped the nap but very quickly we got into the routine of 12hr (ha, that was before the routine messed up with clock change but we are back on track now). Some EWs, some very odd late mornings (he doesn't tack on in the morning so a late morning here is highly unusual) - but he still sneaks micro naps in the car (eg about 3 mins yesterday just before we arrived at the shops), I think they are more of a hindrance than a help now but the first month or so it was useful, I know you don't have that option though.
I've done 5.30 BTs too, often with good results.
Good luck!
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What did u end up doing? Fwiw I would do 10.5h days when initially nap dropping if ds tacked on but the didn't so like creations I was doing 11.5-12h days. Ds was three when we started and obv couldn't handle it and got ot so then I went with set BT which often meant 13-14.5 h days and rode out the ot...
The clock change set us back and I've stuck to set BT and he's finally did 12h night last night.plan for a while. So as z tacks on I would stick with short nnds 10.5-11h if he's having BT shenanigans itss prob ot rather than it so I'd stick with it for a few weeks...if that doesn't work you could try set BT and see if you could set his body clock and let him SR wu then...awith dev stuff going on tho I would stick with a plan...I'm guessing news are dev and BT call backs too so I would just ride it out...sorry I know easier said than done!! xx
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During the final push she had 11hr days usually. If I did less than 11hr she had ews or trouble settling. But if she slept in one day, I would still do 7:30ish bedtime that night, so some of her days were 10.5hrs but it wasnt a regular thing and it was regulated by her, if that makes sense. Yes, we just rode out any ot.
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In bed at 5.45 asleep 6. Up 6 so 12 hr night only NW was he woke when I put the covers back over him. Ugh...how do I time this right!?
He dozed in bed I think till 6.30/45 and seems ok....
So 6 again? I'm worried he won't tack on anymore because he is regulating ie doesn't need the nap anymore...so I'll see how he goes and we may try for 6.15. I can't pd at 5.. It's just madness
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I would push him out as far as you can. Six if possible, and just ride out the ot.
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Agree with MJN- if you don't think he would tack on anymore I would push till 6 if you can and perhaps stick to a set BT in hope he will SR....
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Ugh, he didn't go to sleep till 6.30 seemed ok, STTN but 5am calling! He had knocked his nightlight egg over ::) he's in his room now not sleeping yet. What on earth do I do if he doesn't go back to sleep! :'( he has daycare at 1! Do I flag it and nap him? Try a CN before 12? Or BT at 5.30 I'm on my own so I can't do any earlier than that.
Gross
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I'm not sureif. He went back to sleep...I think he dozed. He said he had another sleep :-\
Anyway, up at 7ish.
Let me know if you think this is a bad idea. Otherwise I'm going to go for 6pm BT - I think I'm going to try to go with consistsncy till he's sleeping well then push closer to 6.30-7 pm
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If he's been in bed until 7, it would be worth pushing him through. He may have dozed, but he would have rested all the same.
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Oh no....he can't have slept he looked like death by 11 and wanted to lie In my bed so I put him into his bed for a rest before daycare and he went to sleep! Never would he usually nap that early!
So woke at 12.30 (I think it was 45 mins or so) and will try for 6.30 BT? This 1-0 is so messy!
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It is messy, and I'm afraid to say it's one of the times I just had to follow my gut. See how he looks after preschool, and go from there?
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Sara, forgive me if I am saying something that has already been discussed, I have not read back through the thread but do you think a 35-40 min nap 2-3 times a week would help? That is what we did with DS and I have to say the transition was not too bad with him. I did it on days when I thought he needed a catch up i.e. he had woken earlier and kept BT the same. It worked well for us.
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Hi Becky,
In the past a short nap has been awful for him, but yesterday he did this as he was so tired
I put him into his bed for a rest before daycare and he went to sleep! Never would he usually nap that early!
So woke at 12.30 (I think it was 45 mins or so)
So I guess yes, I think it could work after initially thinking it wouldn't iykwim :-\
If I can get him to nap early like yesterday too on daycare days I think that could really help as they are the OS ones too when he gets super tired.
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Ok 6.30 BT 6.50-7 WU....so NND and BT 6?
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Sounds like a plan!
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Great night! And yes to 6 BT!
PS agree to short cn if he takes them...ds wouldn't do well with them either until 1-0 got really messy. I would only do them when necessary so like you said nursery days and on ewu days...unfortunately before this is over he may get to a stage where cn will lead to BT shenanigans and that's when you have to go CT...
Hugs hon you're doing great xx
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:-* thanks ladies.