BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: <Catherine> on November 22, 2013, 11:18:43 am
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I can't carry on with these night feeds, especially when I don't think he's waking from hunger and I'm just being used as a dummy ::)
I started with a combination of pu/pd and shh/pat last night (which worked well with DS1) but I want to be sure I am not depriving him of feeds he needs before I get right into sleep training, yk?
But surely 3 hourly day and night is a tad OTT?? Along with 3 good solid meals each day too :-\
I thought we'd hit the 6 month GS, and still do think we did tbh, but I think it's a habit now.
I dont know. But I'm tired :'(
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Mine were both having 4-5 in the day and 2 at night.
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Were they? Oh. That's interesting then.
We're on 4-6 during the day (depending on naps), mostly 5. And 2-3 at night.
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We were prob 5 in the day and 2 at night, likely 11/12 then 5/6. But yes every 3 hours is excessive!!
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(((hugs))) Catherine,
At 5.5 months we had a feed at approx 6am, 10.30am, 3pm, 4.30 (cluster feed) and final feed before bedtime. She would wake at night between 0-2 times. I started solids around that time but only a tablespoon for breakfast. Maybe all those solids are interfering with milk intake
:-\
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Possibly exagerating slightly at 3 hourly, but the last two days went like this:-
8.10am
11.15am
1.30pm
5.50pm
8.15pm
12.40am (barely fed)
3.00am
6.05am (barely fed)
8.10am
12.25am (late because he pulled off a shocker of a long nap!)
4.00pm
6.40pm
1.50am
4.10am (Barely fed but wouldn't settle so pu/pd and shh/pat for an hour then slept til 7am)
Up until recently he's fed well at each feed that he's wanted at night, so therefore I know he's hungry. But these last two nights he's not always feeding, he'll suck a few times then fall asleep on the boob. He woke at 11pm ish last night too but a dummy replug sent him back off which hasn't worked for a good while. He then fed well at 1.50am but I was just used as a dummy at the 4.10am waking so that's when I decided to make a start on STing. 2 of the feeds from the night before were just suck suck and sleep too.
I dont think he's taking any different with regards to milk during the day, but then how do I know I guess?
I feel like I am out of control with it all and have no idea what he needs.
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How about doing a dream feed, that way you'll know he only wants max one more feed before morning?
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I'm having a bad day. DS1 has had me up the last two nights too. Actually havent slept since 4.10am this morning and am now at work.
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How about doing a dream feed, that way you'll know he only wants max one more feed before morning?
I had thought about that actually Anna. The dream feed didn't work for us when I tried when he was little but I did wonder whether that might be an option now.
What time would you do it? I'm getting myself into bed by 10pm because I'm so tired (closer to 9pm if I can!).
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When's his bedtime? I'd set an alarm for 1.5hrs just as you're dropping off, that's one sleep cycle so it should be not too hard to wake from. So anywhere from 10.30-11.30 depending what time you get to bed. Could DH give him the DF with a bottle? DH do all wakings before 2am? That way you could get a solid 5hrs in?
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I had wondered that too - dh is always still up at gone 11pm so that would make sense.
Don't feel ready to introduce a bottle. Don't know why. Silly really.
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Not silly at all! It could be EBM, don't need to go to formula. Even if it was only a couple of times a week, you could get some sleep in the bank.
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His BT is usually around 7.30 but varies a bit depending on his last nap.
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In very tempted by a DF of ebm tbh.
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Got to be worth a trial for a few days?
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How much do I express? How much would you expect him to take?
Would I express just before I go to bed?
You do have all the answers....don't you Anna? :P
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Ooh quantities I don't know ;P both of mine were little piggies :-*
I would try and express in the morning if you possibly can. Your supply will be better. If you JUST express at bedtime, I'd expect it not to be a full feed because he is more efficient than a pump, yk? You could express a bit after a couple of feeds through the day, and then right before bed. Try maybe 5-6oz? See what you get? If he finishes it all that's OK he should still go down but then next day you'll know to add a little bit more.
I was very adamant about strictly BF only with Audrey, but once they've started solids the whole 'virgin gut' thing is finished so there's honestly no harm in doing that feed as formula if expressing just sounds like too much of a faff. I guess there's a small risk it might trouble his tummy a little, but again if he's on solids I'd think he'd be fine.
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Ok. I can see expressing in the morning being a faff, mainly because of work and school (we barely leave the house on time as it is!), but as tomorrow's Saturday I will start then and see how I go.
Perhaps I'll wake and do a DF myself tonight just to see how that goes, then give dh a bottle tomorrow night to give him.
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E can take 4-5oz of ebm in a bottle so 5-6oz is probably a good starting point. I can only pump first thing in the morning because I get nothing otherwise (and I get up before everyone else so have some time to do it!).
I noticed on the two days you posted he had less wakings when the day feeds were spaced out farther...was that just a fluke? Also wondering about the solids and if they are interfering with his milk intake (has he always been getting up this often at night?).
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You know I'm here with you! Our daily FB updates keep me going. Like Heidi, I'm wondering if it's worth trying to stretch those daytime feeds a bit, especially now he's taking solids so well. Apart from G's lousy naps I know she's snacking a bit, especially in the mornings after all those NFs! Even last night after only 2 feeds she wasn't bothered to feed in the morning! ::)
Hugs and hand holding! Xxx
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I noticed on the two days you posted he had less wakings when the day feeds were spaced out farther...was that just a fluke?
Hmmm. I'm really not sure. The fact that I can't get his days right is having an impact on nights too I think (naps wise). However, now that you mention it, he only had 2 solid feeds yesterday rather than the usual 3 (he shocked me with a long nap!) so perhaps the solids are playing a part? The control freak in me does not like not knowing how much milk he's taking - time wise he's breastfeeding as he always has done.
Also wondering about the solids and if they are interfering with his milk intake (has he always been getting up this often at night?).
He has done for a good while, yes (progressively getting worse i suppose), but we've only been on solids for a maximum of two weeks I'd say - it's only this last week that he's been taking a decent amount really.
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Even last night after only 2 feeds she wasn't bothered to feed in the morning!
See, he's always desperate to feed, no matter whether it's 1.5hrs or 4 hrs after the last one!
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How much is he taking in solids? The older two were mix fed by that point so I have never done solids with an ebf baby - will be a new experience for me in a couple of months.
Hmmm another thought....if he is waking and not really taking full feeds could he have a bit of tummy upset from the solids?
Even last night after only 2 feeds she wasn't bothered to feed in the morning!
See, he's always desperate to feed, no matter whether it's 1.5hrs or 4 hrs after the last one!
Lol sounds like E...she gets super mad in the late afternoon/evening when my letdown is not as fast!
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How much is he taking in solids?
Probably 5-10tsps at each feed.
Hmmm another thought....if he is waking and not really taking full feeds could he have a bit of tummy upset from the solids?
I dont know. He's falling asleep at the boob though, rather than refusing and being upset. We do have times where he wont settle and is upset but I'm pretty sure that's down to routine and UT/OT, but then I could be wrong....I clearly dont have a clue about him right now! ;)
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G never refuses the breast either but doesn't take much in the morning. She feeds best in the afternoon, really but she's also a terribly distracted feeder. G's decided now she's not interested in solids either! Ha!
Hun, you're not on your own in feeling lost but we do know it will get better. It HAS to! Xxx
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Ok, well I've spaced feeds out today and he's only had 2 solid feeds, so I'm going to see how tonight goes and then probably add a DF tomorrow night.
Today's feeds:-
8.10pm
11.50pm
3.15pm
And his last one will be around 7.00pm
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Fx it is a better night for you!
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At that age we were on 4 day feeds and mostly 2 at night, sometimes one if the 5am feed was the start the day feed ::)
Research suggests ebf babies take an average of 25oz between 1mo-6mo. It doesn't change between those ages like it does for ff babies btw. Kellymom suggests dividing 25 by the number feeds to see how much you need per feed. I think 4-5oz should be plenty. http://kellymom.com/bf/pumpingmoms/pumping/milkcalc/
We actually started a DF with Colby around this age and it took 2wks to mean he slept through till 5 or 5.30am. It was handy to have the feed before I went to sleep though. He never took more than 5oz. He didn't like the bottle though and only took half a dozen in his life before refusing it.
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Oscar was a very easy breast to bottle of EBM and back again baby and a total guzzler. I went back to work at 4.5 mths and he was on 7,11,3,7,DF at 11pm and STTN at this stage.
When we introduced solids at 24 weeks on advice of paed as haemoglobin was low we slowly started reducing the 11am feed and then phased it out completely by 7-8 mths ish (its 7 yrs ago so I don't remember LOL). But at his best, Ozzie was guzzling all I pumped in work between the 11am feed and the 11pm feed (around 13-15 oz a day - I was a prolific pumper as well LOL over two pump breaks).
Emma was on 5 feeds a day at 5-8 mths as well and it was also the 11am feed I dropped first in her case as I was back in work at 7.5 mths and didn't have the time to pump so didn't and fed before and after work 7am and 3.30pm ish and in the meantime she drank water only. She would never take a bottle!
I honestly think tummy troubles due to solids and/or distracted feeds are the main culprits of feeding very frequently at this age - that or snacking/mummy as dummy....I would stretch the feeds for sure as you are and intro the DF too, whichever way works - we've done one with bottle (Ozzie) and one direct from the breast. Both gave good results with these particular babies xxx
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He's young Cath for 3 meals. With R she started a silly number of night feeds at 7 months and I had to cut right back on solids. She was just taking far too many and there just isn't the same calories per oz YK? I'd cut back to 2 solid meals and see does that help. I actually cut right back to a few finger foods then built up again but in our case solids were definately the issue.
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We did the same as shiv with solids at 7mo with cadan. Sometimes it just doesnt leave room for the milk during the day.
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I've just followed his lead. He'd take more if I let him, and the gp suggested solids early to help with reflux and the hv said 'once he's getting solids into him that'll help the nights', god knows why I listen to her anyway as she's useless, so I've just gone with it I guess.
I will cut it back.
I'm a mess. So much stress, mainly caused by DS1's behaviour. I suppose I thought maybe these nights were something I could fix.
Thanks for all your help ladies x
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((((hugs)))) honey. I really hope your DH will do a dream feed and you can get a solid chunk of sleep in. Nothing is impossible to cope with if we're rested. Almost everything is impossible to cope with if we're not.
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Hugs xx
I followed Rosas lead too but she just was taking in far too much solids and it didn't help her sleep at all. Made it worse which I didn't actually think was possible!!
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More hugs hun. Don't feel bad about it. These babies clearly don't always know what is good for them (or else they'd sleep a bit more!) and as you say he's been enjoying them and you were given that advice too. Hugs hun, you've got such a lot on. I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again but you're my hero, working, doing school runs etc with a young baby and a little boy too. I'm barely keeping it together and rarely leave the house!
Honestly though, when C was this age, stretching those feeds out really did help. I remember not really believing it would because I'd read so many times about EBF babies not making 4hr feeds until solids were well established but C was always much more of a routine feeder and we got stuck at 3-3.5hr feeds, a bit like I am now except with G there is no pattern. I've no idea how I'll get G there...but I think in amongst all the A time mess and short naps, stretching those Es will help here too.
Here with you and sending you hugs. Try to catch an early night and I'll happily take one for the team and have a rubbish night tonight if it means B sleeps better and you catch up! G was good last night for her...only 2 feeds! ::) love and hugs :-*
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:-*
It's nearly 9pm and we've only just eaten, so much for an early night ::)
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Big hugs. It will pass, but agree with the others about cutting back a bit on the solids x
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Dh and I are rowing about it now. I feel totally alone.
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Oh hugs darling. What he's not prepared to do a DF?
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:( :'( >:(
:-*
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Awh Cath xx so sorry.
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No, that's not a problem at all, we didnt even really get that far. Just stupid arguing about what is/isn't acceptable to expect from a baby. Apparently if he's waking every hour (he's not, obviously, yet we need to be arguing about that!) for a feed then that's fine, who writes the rules that a baby of his age should be able to go 3/4/7 hours?
Ugh. Just stupid bickering. I just want some support because I'm tired. I don't care whether he agrees with me or not. Sorry, not the place for this, I need a couch all to myself.
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((((Hugs))))) he's probably trying to make you feel better in a dumb, misguided, bloke way. Get some rest.
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No, that's not a problem at all, we didnt even really get that far. Just stupid arguing about what is/isn't acceptable to expect from a baby. Apparently if he's waking every hour (he's not, obviously, yet we need to be arguing about that!) for a feed then that's fine, who writes the rules that a baby of his age should be able to go 3/4/7 hours?
Wow twin DHs strike again. My response was fine. In that case NFs from now on are bottles and you are doing every other night and I do not want to hear one complaint. That soon got him on board with stretching night feeds.
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I don't have advice Hun but can't not offer big, big hugs xxxxx
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Hug cath. Your getting fab advice but I did just want to agree with this...
I followed Rosas lead too but she just was taking in far too much solids and it didn't help her sleep at all. Made it worse which I didn't actually think was possible!!
^^ with both my boys ::) once I did no solids after 3 pm too things improved a lot. Better BT feed, more settled night.
:-*
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Ok, so a better night for me (except for missing out on 2 hours sleep as I went to bed much later than planned thanks to dh!) in that he woke for two feeds and was more settled after each one as he was sleepy and not wide awake - I am convinced this is a routine issue as the days he's had longer naps are the days I have him wide awake at night.
He had 2 feeds:-
12.05am
4.10am
Woke at 6.50am
Neither we're full feeds, it's all a bit of a blur as I was so tired, but the second feed was the better one. The first wasnt as short as they have been some nights though. I needed to resettle him once or twice after the second one but only 5/10 mins after and then he slept til 6.50.
Fell asleep on boob both times though.
I think a DF is the answer, from my point of view definitely, even if it doesn't make him go longer. At least it's one feed I don't have to do and maybe we'll be able to get him to have more from a bottle?
Will stick with the 4hourly day feeds and cutting back on the solids.
Going to pump now :)
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Hugs hun. I didn't see your post last night so I'm sorry about your argument with DH. They don't really get it. DH complains about me going in with G but if he'd been having to hold her asleep for the past few months then he might have a better idea.
Pleased B had a better night. Do you think 3-2 as well as stretching the feeds is at play? I know your car journeys are the killer for you on workdays but just wondering what A times and naps you can get when he's at home?
Interested to see if the DF helps as I might try it with G. She woke at 12:10, 3:40 and then 5:50 (I know that last one is shocking!) but other than the first feed the other two were v short!
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Yeah, I'm sure 3-2 is the problem too. He'll happily do two naps, and I think he needs the longer A times, but I can't guarantee a decent nap and if he does have a decent nap he's ut during the night, yet if he has 2 short naps then we can't get to BT!
Should I be pumping before his first feed? I've just pumped an hour after his feed and got a dribble at best :/
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If you can juggle it, pumping off one side while you feed from the other will give you the most and easiest. Or pumping straight after, if not. What kind of pump do you have?
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Only a hand pump. My sister's friend has an electric one which I can borrow but won't be able to get that til next weekend.
If I pump whilst feeding will it effect what he has? He feeds from both sides at each feed.
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I'd pump from side 1 when he's on side 2, then finish side 2 when he's done. Havin said that though I was never able to get more than a trickle with a hand pump.
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I couldn't pump for the life of me. About this age I was shattered too so I used to do the BT feed then DH took over. I had an hour to myself then headed to bed with the aim of being asleep by 9.30. at 11 DH would bring R to me in bed. I'd feed her then he'd take her and sort her back to bed. It meant I was only half conscious and I got straight back to sleep. She generally went to 3am ish then. But it meant I slept 9.30-3 and that made me feel so much better. Just another option xx
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This was exactly as I did with Emma.
I had a total love-hate relationship with my pump after being back in work at 4 mths and pumping twice a day everyday till 10mths with Oscar.
I could pump an awful lot to begin with (as I had been priming my breasts since Ozzie was born - he was a single sider feeder till 4 mth GS so I fed one side and pumped the other at all 7am feeds and one more everyday from around 10 days old).
With Emma, I hadn't the time, she had an unclipped tongue tie, she was very confused between breast and bottle and I was constantly in oversupply-undersupply mix due to her haphazard latch, my high prolactin and possibly all the stimulation from my first breastfeeding relationship...
It worked really well and I loved that snuggly feed while I was already in bed. I would totally do it that way again if I were ever to have a third.
S x
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Thanks ladies. It's worth a try if the pumping isn't a success but I find I wake so much when feeding that it might not be enough to make enough of a difference yk? I'm not able to doze whilst feeding, I need to be sat up. We'll see though :)
Today we've had 2 short naps and a long A to bed so I'm expecting some OT wakings but we'll see. He had 2 solid feeds, both less than he's been having (he was less than impressed!!) and bf's have been as follows:-
7.30am
11.20am
3.00pm
5.35pm (too close but he needed to get to bed!)
Pumping didnt happen, I got practically nothing. I struggled to pump whilst he was feeding as it just distracted him so gave up. Will try the electric pump when I get it and go from there.
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Fingers crossed xxx
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Hugs Catherine. DD is a month younger and having tough nights too. Everything is magnified when we are exhausted. Xxx
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Thanks nini. Yes it really is, and I've had DS1 up a few nights recently too so I think DS2's nights have seemed so bad when perhaps they're not really as bad as they appear yk? ;)
Well last night he was asleep at 6.05pm, we had a couple of OT wakings but I quickly settled him he then fed at 11.40pm and 2.10am. Again fell asleep at the boob both times but did have a good feed at the first waking.
It's a definite pattern that he's waking roughly 2.5hrs after his first NF for the next, regardless of how much he takes at the first. Would a DF stop that, or would he just wake 2.5hrs after that instead?
Would formula at the DF (or at his first night feed) enable him to go longer?
He then woke for the day at 5.40am, no surprise though as he went to bed so early, and I was ok with it as I went to bed at 7.15pm myself last night!! Anyway, he was soaked through so needed a full change (sheets too!), then I fed him and he went back to sleep :) so at least today won't have started too early in the end.
The long NWings are definitely down to nap length, he's gone straight to sleep after (well, during) each feed since I've not allowed him to nap longer than an hour.
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Well last night he was asleep at 6.05pm, we had a couple of OT wakings but I quickly settled him he then fed at 11.40pm and 2.10am. Again fell asleep at the boob both times but did have a good feed at the first waking. It's a definite pattern that he's waking roughly 2.5hrs after his first NF for the next, regardless of how much he takes at the first. Would a DF stop that, or would he just wake 2.5hrs after that instead?
That's a decent night really. I would have been doing bedtime feed and DF with Oscar up at silly oclock for the day at this age...
As for DF helping or not...I suppose it would all depend on intake at DF.
S x
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G is similar at the minute Cath, sometimes not quite making 3hrs after the NF but she then continues that pattern through the night, so if she'd have woken like B last night at 11:40 it would have been a 3 feed night for sure. Once that initial stretch is over then she will go anywhere from 2.5-4hrs but 4 is rare and usually more like 2.5-3hrs x
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Would a DF stop that, or would he just wake 2.5hrs after that instead?
Don' tknow, guess the only way is to try it. For me the advantage of a DF is that DH can do it, so you can get a bit chunk of feed, and then even settle him without feeding if he wants to feed less than 3-4 hrs later.
Would formula at the DF (or at his first night feed) enable him to go longer?
Probably not. Possibly. Again IMO the reason for choosing formula at this stage would be for convenience so that DH could do a dream feed and you could get a solid chunk of sleep in. It's possible he might sleep a bit longer, who knows. I wouldn't recommend or even suggest formula if you were still EBF, but since he's on solids now I think it's fine, unless of course you have a big objection to formula per se.
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Yeah formula is not necessarily going to help him go longer...my ebf baby is the one who goes longest, the older two had formula from a few weeks and it did not make a huge difference (S still had a df and two nf, can't remember M's nights really). For me it was the convenience....DH did the bedtime bottle, first so I could have a bath while he put M to bed and then with S so that I could do M's bedtime routine.
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unless of course you have a big objection to formula per se.
No, formula was fine for DS1, I have nothing against it, or at least I didnt think I did.....I caved last night and tried a bottle and I was almost in tears making it, I dont know why it made me so sad! ::)
He was ridiculously OT last night. He woke early evening and I managed, after a bit of fussing, to settle him but then come 9.30pm he was screaming. I fed him (bf) but he would just suck a few times then fall asleep, but if I put him down he screamed. Nothing I did would settle him. So, I thought maybe a bottle would get a feed into him, and as by this time it was gone 10pm I thought it was an opportunity to try a bottle for the DF. He was having none of it. I dont know if it was the bottle, the formula or both. He didnt actually drink any but would have had a taste. And then he wouldnt take the boob, and even struggled to take the dummy ::)
I did manage to get him to take a BF about 30 mins later as he still hadn't calmed, but he gave the nipple a thorough check first to ensure there was no bottle going on!!
We then had more screaming later in the night, but it's all down to OT, I know that for sure.
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*hugs* Really hard when they do that. FWIW, when DD used to get like that it was down to a growth spurt and wanting to feed, but being too beside herself to latch on.
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E gets like that too...mostly when she has trapped wind/gas and wants to guzzle but needs to burp and then works herself into such a state she is swallowing air and making it worse!
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E gets like that too...mostly when she has trapped wind/gas and wants to guzzle but needs to burp and then works herself into such a state she is swallowing air and making it worse!
I was going to say this too!
Hugs Catherine :-*
Just wondering - if there is teeth coming they may be giving him a bit of a sore tum and bit of reflux - early evening (7-10) is always terrible for us when T teethes or GS etc from him lying down and a bot of reflux coming up x
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Well, things are improving :)
I've stuck with he same routine nap wise which means we no longer have him awake for hours in the night either screaming with OT or chatting with UT. I've also stuck with 4 hourly bf's and only two smaller solid meals.
He has been still waking at 12 ish and 2 ish for feeds, but the last two nights he's gone longer and has had feeds at 12 ish then 4 ish :) And tonight, here we are at 2.15 having our first NF :) (he did wake around 10pm but just needed a quick resettle)
I haven't attempted the bottle again yet, so no DF as yet.