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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Lindsay27 on January 20, 2014, 15:16:21 pm
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DS will be 21 months this week, and has been a notorious EWer on and off since birth, but a pretty consistent EWer since starting daycare at 12.5 months. I've pretty much accepted it and I try not to stress about it, but I am wondering if it is maybe time to introduce a gro-clock or if he needs a routine tweak?
I worry he is too young to introduce the gro-clock and that he won't understand it, and also that it won't work for him because once he's up...he's up. He wants out of his crib asap and will scream the house down otherwise. I do think a lot of his EW problems are OT related since beginning daycare (it just poops him out), though his routine is set and he does follow it every day, his wakings stretched out over the holidays (I was off work for 2 weeks) to 7/7:30am but then he went back to EWs once he started daycare again. He's in daycare 5 days a week.
His routine is roughly...
WU: anywhere between 5:15am - 6:30am, it varies day by day, though usually around 5:45am
Nap: 12:30 - 2:30pm give or take, though usually somewhere around 1.5-2hrs
BT: 7pm
The 'ideal' WU time would be 6:30am - I think I could handle that weekdays and weekends, so we aren't *that* far off. I think his routine is pretty good, so I'm wondering if it's time to think about the gro-clock?
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Have you considered pushing BT until 7:30 or so in order to push out WU? DS has a similar schedule to yours (WU 6:30, nap ~12-2 (1.5-2 hours), BT 7:30).
We introduced an imitation gro-clock at around 24 months, but DS was already moving around in his room by then (climbing out of his crib and moved to a toddler bed at 24 months). He had been starting to wake at 5:45 for a few days before we started using it, so it wasn't a long term problem that we were fixing. It took only a few days for DS to get the point that WU is when the light goes on, it could be 21 months would also have worked, but you'd have to keep the concept simple ("only call for someone to get you when the light goes on, otherwise it's still night" and when I come get him in the morning "did the light go on yet?...ok, good, it's morning" - this way it reinforces that he should look for the light before calling out)
Can you start putting books or toys into his crib for him to play with in the morning. We started that earlier on and it kept DS quieter in the morning (before then he always called to come out as soon as he woke up).
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Have you considered pushing BT until 7:30 or so in order to push out WU?
On the nights that he goes to bed a bit later, it doesn't seem to impact his WU time, which is why we've pretty much stuck with the 7pm BT because we end up getting a longer night that way. Though, maybe if I consistently stick to a later BT for say a week I would start to see a difference?
Can you start putting books or toys into his crib for him to play with in the morning.
I guess my only question about this is...at that time in the morning it is still pitch-black outside. So, when he wakes would I go in and turn his light on and then ask him to play with his books? I feel like that wouldn't work because as soon as he saw me he'd think it was time to get to get out of bed and he wouldn't be very happy about me leaving again.
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He started reading books in his crib during the dark winter also. We kept a hallway light on (with his door open) at night until he fell asleep (usually 10-15 minutes and then we closed the door) so that he could read in bed and then when he woke up in the morning we wouldn't open a light for him, but somehow he still knew his books were there (maybe b/c he fell asleep reading them?), so he was able to entertain himself. Even now, he'll sometimes get out of bed and play a little in the dark in his room before he calls for me (doesn't happen often, but if it does I think he's waiting for his gro-clock to light up). I definitely wouldn't go in to open a light, just hope that he realizes he can play by himself before needing you. The "practicing" at night is what helped us, b/c then we could tell him that he could read a little if he wanted to. This never got out of hand (we had a rare night or two where we heard him reading for up to 30 minutes, but not often), he was already an independent sleeper, and wasn't going to sleep OT, so he easily stayed up for his reading without effecting his nights.
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Liam is so much like your Bennett I can't even tell you. We do the EXACT same routine. For the past week he was doing 7-7 but then on day 8 it was back to 5:45. Nothing changed just went back to what he was doing. I tried pushing bt to 7:30 but he still woke at 5:45 so we've stuck with it. So my question is do I cut the nap down? Or just deal with the 5:45. He will also scream the house down if I don't come in a matter of minutes. There is not just playing around in his crib.
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I tried a bit later of a BT last night, and the previous night, and it didn't impact his WU time at all - still 5:45am both days, and last night he actually had a NW at 10pm. I'll try it for a few more days and if nothing changes I'll go back to 7pm.
He has his "Scout" dog (it's a vtech dog) that goes to bed with him, it sings fun songs and also has a "sleepy song" mode so I turn that on when he goes to bed, so you would maybe think that he'd want to play with that when he wakes up in the morning, but he doesn't and just cries immediately. I can try putting him to bed with books, and he'll probably understand that they are there in the morning, but it is so dark you literally can't see your hand in front of your face so I'm not sure he's just going to play with something he can't see? Maybe if I put some light-up toys in there? But at the same time I would want him bumping into them and waking him in the MOTN.
Gah, I don't know. I've pretty much accepted the EW because over the months I've tried everything to change it, and nothing ever works - BT, nap times...doesn't impact the WU at all which is why I was thinking it might be time to start thinking about the Gro-Clock.
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Gah, I don't know. I've pretty much accepted the EW because over the months I've tried everything to change it, and nothing ever works - BT, nap times...doesn't impact the WU at all which is why I was thinking it might be time to start thinking about the Gro-Clock.
I Hear ya. We have Scout to and he just throws it out of his crib. He hates anything in there with him. Books, blankets nor a pillow will last. I have just accepted the 5:45 is his normal wake up and I will wait for the day when he's a teenager and I have to drag him out of bed. :) Sorry not much help but I commiserate with you for sure.
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Would definitely try a gro-clock, not to expect miracles, but he can probably learn in a few days/weeks to wait a little longer before getting out of bed.
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Ya, I think I might give it a go soon. I put him to bed at 7pm last night and he actually slept a little later this morning (until 6am). Sometimes I find an early night (even 6:45pm) he ends up sleeping later the next morning - does that ever happen with you Siobhan? Daycare said he had a late nap yesterday because someone was coming to fix their furnace, so he might have been a little more tired because of the longer A time in the morning.
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I'm not sure I've ever really tried it. Occasionally he'll sleep for 11hrs like the other day he was asleep at 7 and woke at 6 but yesterday it was asleep at 7 wake up 5:45 on the dot. Maybe I'll attempt an earlier BT today and see what happens. But I honestly don't think 15min at this age so BT at 6:45 makes that much of a difference and I'm afraid he'll wake at 5:30 LOL.
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I really do think 15 minutes makes a big difference. With a 2 yo with chronic EW, I have learned the hard way. Every time he starts waking at 5:30 after illness or some schedule disruption, I try to keep putting him to bed at our regular time but he keeps waking at 5:30. Once I finally do the bedtime 15 minutes earlier he is back to 6:30. He does not seem OT but it is a lifesaver! I keep thinking he is going to grow out of the needing to go to bed super early and by keeping him up later I will have some miracle morning where he wakes at 7, but it has never happened. But I still keep hope alive! Good luck! Also we started the grow clock when he was 15mos. He got it pretty fast as long as you consistently wait to come in until after it is on- synchronize your clocks :) Now there is no doubt when it comes on, I hear a big "yay!"
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Hi lindsay have You tried the 6:45 bedtime?
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We did try the 6:45am BT and got a 6am WU. The few following days we did 7pm BT and WU was around 6:10am. He's got the flu now though, so things are a bit of a write off here...me cleaning up vomit and diarrhea at 4am this morning. Yuck!
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Okay, I'm back. I can't begin to express how tired I am of waking up at 5:30am. There are many times I say I've 'accepted' it, but then there are days like today when I am literally furious that he's up, and it takes everything in me to hold it together. I am so exhausted at waking up at this time for the last...year. Okay, end rant.
So he's doing about 10.5hr nights, is that 'normal' for his age?
Last week I tried pushing BT to 7:30pm but it didn't make a difference, his BT doesn't seem to affect his WUs at all, it's like he literally just has an internal clock that tells him 5:30am is time to wake up. I try to tell him that it's still night time, but he just screams and screams and screams until I take him out of the crib. I tried taking him into our bed this morning because I refused to get up, and same thing...just screamed until I was so annoyed I got up.
A normal routine is:
WU - 5:30/6am (today was 5:25am)
Nap - 12:30 - 2:30
BT - 7pm
I mean...I think his routine is ok? I don't know? He's been on this routine forever.
I'm just so tired of this. Sigh.
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hey Lindsay,
as you know sleep here has been horrible since 18months but things are finally starting to get better! i think a lot of it was my denial that he needed his nap capped, tons of developmental stuff going on, and we got a groclock!!
anyways, i think if you want to push bt later you need to push the nap later also. liam is currently doing a 6.5-6hr45 A in the morning before his nap, then 1.5hr nap and 4hr 45-5hr A to bt.
considering that he is still doing 10.5-11hr nights, you don't HAVE to cap yet if you don't want to, but you do need to move the nap later i think if you want a chance at a later wake up. i think if you do that together with the gro clock and give it a week or two it will eventually work.
i don't know when you would like him up in the morning but this is what we have been doing
wu 645/7
nap 130-3
bt pd at 730, asleep 745/8
i started with the gro clock at 630 and slowly moved it later. i have a vid monitor so i see him when he wakes and he lies back down in the morning if the sun is not up yet. he has never fallen back asleep if he has already done 10.5-11hrs (if he has done less than 10hrs there is more of a chance of him falling back to sleep and then we have a good wu to work off of, yk?) but at least he is quiet and resting and that gives me a chance to wake up peacefully in bed with out rushing in to his screams, yk?
i think since you are still getting good nights with the 2 hr nap i wouldn't cap (unless you want an even longer night, of course) and do something like this, depending on when you would like wu to be:
wu 6/630 (bro clock on for 630 at the start and slowly move to 645, or so?)
nap 1-3
bt 730
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The thing about pushing his nap later is that he naps at daycare, and they are on a routine there and she tries to have all the kids nap at the same time, so she has to account for the younger ones too. That said, the nap does float a bit and can sometimes be 12:30, but sometimes closer to 1 or even after 1.
Even though he was up at 5:30am yesterday I tried a slightly later BT and he slept til 6am today, but he also did have a NW at 2:45am, so who knows. It's hard to make routine changes when so much of it is out of my hands, and I know I can ask her to push his nap...but I also don't want to over-complicate her day either.
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Well then i think you are kind of stuck then, yk? I think his nap needs tp be consistently later for there to be a change in his wu. A day here or there wont make a difference i dont think when he is so used to a 1230 nap.
I guess your option is to either ask the lady at daycare to pushthe nap later or live with a really early wu...if you dont feel comfortable asking the daycare lady tochange B's nap time then i would at least get a groclock for your sanity and that way tou could teach him to wait quietly until 6?
Liam would scream the house down calling for me and it only took a few days for it to get better withthe groclock. He is so proud ofhimself when the sun comes up and he has waited.
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The other option is to cut the nap to maybe 1.5hrs to see if that makes a difference?
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Stuck with a 7:30pm BT last night and got a 6:15am WU this morning, though I think he was extra tired yesterday because he was outside a lot. I think I'll try to talk to my CM about pushing the nap to 1pm consistently and see what that does.
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Forgot to mention - he doesn't always sleep 2 hrs...it's usually somewhere between 1.5 - 2hrs.
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Just reading through quickly but my suggestion would have actually been to do the exact opposite....an earlier BT. Bearing in mind we all have different experience here, so not wanting to cause confusion - you've had some lovely support already :-* but my DD at 26 months is not high sleep needs but a 13-13.5h day with a 1.5-2h nap, with daycare would see her deep deep into OT territory. For us a 10.5h night with a cranky WU is almost always overtiredness.
Just to give you an idea she is at daycare Mon- Weds and does:
WU 6.45
Nap 11.45/12 for around 1h-1h15, though will refuse at least once a week, more often twice
BT 6.30 if no nap, 7 if naps
At home she does:
WU 7ish
Nap 1/1.30 for 1h30 (capped) - allow an extra 15 mins if completely exhausted
BT 7pm
With the odd nap refusal day at home.......like today..........
Just another thing to consider if pushing nap and /or BT doesn't get you the results you're hoping for :)
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but my DD at 26 months is not high sleep needs but a 13-13.5h day with a 1.5-2h nap, with daycare would see her deep deep into OT territory. For us a 10.5h night with a cranky WU is almost always overtiredness.
I have wondered this also because I find that sometimes if I do an early BT at around 6:30/45, that I might actually get a later WU. I do really wonder if it's a case of OT and not UT. I honestly don't know if it's OT or UT ??? :-\ He does well on a 11hr night so I do wonder with all these early WUs if he's now into OT territory, maybe it was a case of a UT/OT loop?
I do think canines are bothering him a bit, we've had a few short NWs this week but giving meds over not giving them isn't making a difference, but his gums are swollen and he's often chewing on his coat/sweater/whatever is accessible ::)
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My rule of thumb is generally to assume most silliness if not teeth is probably OT. Even if it started out as UT! You can do it either way though - my preference is to try to rule out OT first, then try pushing nap or BT second if EBT/early nap doesn't help. But you know your LO best and if you think it's best to rule out UT first then I'd stick to with the later nap/BT for a week or so and see where it gets you x
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My CM sent me a text saying he has a fever today but is generally ok...so that really leads me to believe teeth and maybe a OT combo.
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How has sleep been last couple of days? Sorry to hear he has a fever though - bear in mind a high fever is unlikely to be teething, more likely a virus so just keep an eye out for symptoms x
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I think my CM might have been crazy because we didn't detect a fever, definitely teething symptoms though.
Yesterday WU was horrid. 5am. I tried for an hour to resettle him but nothing worked. This morning was 6am. We are all over the map!
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Ugh miserable :( hope the day goes better than you expect x
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A 6:30am WU yesterday and I tried BT at about 7:15ish and LOTS of shenanigans ... he didn't settle until 8:30pm and DH had to lay beside his crib and then he ended up having 2 NW, one at 11pm and one at 2pm (both which have occurred a few times this week) and then a 6:15 WU this morning. He seemed really tired though when we put him down at BT.
His bottom canine just barely started to cut yesterday, I can just feel a small tip of it through the gum, so I am suspecting it's just his teeth. All 4 canines look ready to come through, so it might be a while yet before things settle down.
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I'm guessing he was already OT by bedtime. Did he nap?
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Yes he did nap, but not entirely sure for how long.
3 canines have cut now, so he's just a bit off overall. The last 2 night's he's had 8pm BT because we've had company and he has settled with absolutely no issues and had decent WUs - 6:30am this morning and 6:15am yesterday. He was a mess when I took him to daycare today though. It is just me and him tonight, so we are going to have a quick dinner and then an early BT...poor bub, needs to catch up a bit and the teeth aren't helping matters!
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OMG I cannot handle this BT crap anymore!
So as I said WU this morning was 6:30am, so I tried for a 7:30pm BT tonight and it's been a half hour (so far) of complete shenanigans.
The last 2 nights I've put him to bed a 8pm and those BTs have been flawless.
So...I don't know. You'd think he wouldn't be UT after a 13hr day, but what the frig do I know.
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I'd be trying earlier BT I think - DD struggles a lot with a 13h day even with a good nap, it just doesn't allow enough night sleep for her. It could be your LO is crashing by the time it's a 13.5h day......
When and how long did he nap?
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I'm just really frustrated and I feel so bad because I know his teething is just making matters worse. I *think* we had 5 NWs last night but honestly I stopped counting. He was a wreck when he woke up this morning. I'll try a 7pm BT tonight or maybe even a bit earlier.
When and how long did he nap?
Not entirely sure, I'd have to ask his CM. He generally naps around 12:30 - 2:30 ish, but sometimes only 1.5hrs.
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Tried a 7pm BT last night, at it was the same story. I just completely abandoned doing WI/WO because I literally could not handle 1.5 - 2hrs of it again, so I just stayed with him right from the get-go and it look him 45mins - 1hr to drop off. It was the same at nap time today and I had to stay with him for him to fall asleep.
I am really starting to wonder if it's not simply a matter of routine, but some kind of development leap or separation anxiety (in combination with the teeth). We've never had BT issues before even if he was a little OT or UT so I can't understand why his behaviour would all of a sudden swing sooo far from normal. He's also been just plain angry. He had 1 NW last night and the only way I can describe it was pure rage...hitting me, trying to bite my hands, just complete hysterical shrieking and nothing was calming him down. It took me and hour to settle him and then DH ended up having to sleep on his floor from 3am - 5am.
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I dont know if you saw my post a few weeks back, but we went through the same exact thing. Screaming at nt, bt and nw. Just pure hysteria. I sat with him at nt and bt and slept on the floor from the first nw for 2-3 weeks. One day it was just over.... I am pretty sure it was developmental, although he was also teething canines at the time.
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I just want to say that LO does this EVERY bt or nt for me. BUT if it's DH or the babysitter he is fine.. Has DH tried putting him to bed with a different result? Just curious. Because that would point to developmental or SA.
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Has DH tried putting him to bed with a different result?
Same result with both of us unfortunately.
He sort of did this when his molars were coming through, but not nearly as bad...definite SA then too though. I keep trying to tell myself that it's just a phase (which I'm sure it is), but in the meantime it's just exhausting. Sigh.
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How are things hun?
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Not much better unfortunately, and to make matters worse he got a cold a few days ago which has now progressed to croup, so he had an attack at 4:30am last night the poor guy, and crying makes it SO much worse. So, for now...lots of love and snuggles. Maybe this whole time he just wasn't feeling right?
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Oh bless him :( I hope he's better soon xx
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I don't want to jinx it but I think we *may* have turned a corner. DS is mostly better and the last few days we've been having a WU of about 6/6:30 and a BT of 7:30/45 and all is going fairly smoothly. A little bit of BT antics (stalling BT...he needs his water, his song turned on, the night light turned on...you name it, he'll use it) and he usually throws his lovey out at least once (just so we'll retrieve it), but this all lasts maybe 10mins and then he's off to sleep.
I really think this all started because his canines were cutting and then it all became such a disaster and he was so OT and then it just snowballed. I think for the time being we will try 7:30 BT and hope that keeps giving us 6:30 WUs or there about and go from there.
Holy...what a month that was! I REALLY hope it's over!
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that's great news just curious what nap you are doing?
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His hap is usually 1.5 - 2hrs from about 12:30/1 - 2:30, though on the weekend because he wasn't feeling well he had a few mammoth naps close to 3hrs.
This morning was a WU a few mins before 6, so I'll try to bring BT forward a bit tonight.
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Gotcha.. Now this may not work for you but I can't believe it's been working for me so maybe give it a shot? Liam has been doing 1.5 hr naps now for a week and seems to be taking to it well enough. He naps from 1-2:30 BT of 7:30. He has bed time shenanigans too BUT we've turned it into a game. Instead of trying to calm him down by low lights/ music etc. We've done the opposite. We make BT a game. We tickle, read books dance to music then about 10min before he should be asleep I pick him up and do something funn ylike "is it a bird or a plane no it's liam" and zoom aroudn the room into his crib. Then I do the chicken dance going back and forth to his crib with a tickle. This sounds rediculous and i'm sure it looks rediculous but I started this 2 weeks ago and I can't believe I can now just shut the light off and leave the room. He'll cry out a few times and I just call out knock it off and go to sleep and he does just that.
Also he's been popping up at 5:30/6 crying out and I do the same thing I yell out go back to sleep. My DH did it at 6 today and I kid you not this child slept till 8:30 with DH havin to wake him up. this has NEVER happened EVER!!! I know he's old enough to understand go to sleep now so maybe it's worth a shot?