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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: My little Liam on February 15, 2014, 13:12:06 pm
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Liam's sleep has been horrid the last few months. I am trying to get back on track with his sleep. He is having screaming NW and is also screaming at BT and nap time. I am so exhausted by all this that I have started sitting with him to fall asleep. He still screams with me there but if I shush a bit he does eventually relax. I don't know how long I can keep this up! In the middle of the night when he wakes I get stuck in his room for hours and I am exhausted.
I am guessing my options are GW or WIWO. How would I do WIWO at this age? I used to lay him back down, tuck him in and leave. The last time I tried this about a week ago he screamed his head off for an hour until I gave up and sat next to him. I don't mind doing GW but know that the moment I get to the point where I need to leave the room he will be screaming anyways, so maybe it's better to do WIWO and just get it over with? I wonder if there are other reasons for the screaming, yk? I mean he is hysterical! He has not been this way since I ST him, not even during 18m SR... My DH was shocked at how bad nap time went today. His bottom canines have finally cut a decent amount, although the are not all the way through. I don't think he is teething molars at the moment.
I have to say, his sleep since 18 has been filled with ups and downs and it is probably at its worst right now. He is horribly OT but I can't get him out of it with the NW's.
So, how should I handle this? How long should it take? If part of it is developmental, will re training him help or will he just scream until the developmental stage passes?
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Oh Hun that's so exhausting for you too :-*
I just wanted to check if he is possibly intolerant to any foods that could be triggering this? - how is his behaviour other than at BT and nap time? Can you think of any changes that may have triggered this?
Is he scared you think? Would a night light help?
Can u post his routine?
Sorry I m thinking out loud. Tbh I'd prob be doing what you are in this circumstance x
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His behavior is generally ok... He has a few meltdowns but i think that is more related to ot.
It all started a few months ago with short nights of 9.5hrs with long chatty nw
Capped the nap to 1.5hrs and things got better within a week. Then bottom canines cut and he became so ot. Since then eveeything is a mess.
I try to do ebt and get long nw with screaming. If i stay with him he eventually starts chatting for hours.
His routine when we started capping to 1.5hrs
Wu 7
Nap 1315/1330-1445/1500
Bt 1945/2000
I am trying to stick to that but he is screaming before nap and bt so things are all over the place.
This morning he woke at 610 screaming. Put him down for nap at 1315, he screamed until 1330 and then i let him sleep as long as he wants. He woke at 1520 so 1hr50. Put down for bed at 2000 as i am trying to stick to set times as much as possible (especially as ebt is not working anyways) and he fell asleep at 2030 but he did not scream so thats good news. He self settled! So i know he can do it!!!
Regarding intolerance, he is currently dairy and soy free by recommendation of pediatritan because of recurring ear infections. He doesnt have one at the moment, we were just at the dr a few days ago.
So what do you think? Maybe this is all just pure ot but then why isnt ebt working??? I am confused...
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I think the long chatty NW could be developmental. I know at 2 Z had a massive language boom, before it his language was quite behind. So a huge leap.
I think his routine looks good, so if it's OT (which I'm not doubting) it could be due to teeth or development. This makes it hard sometimes because EBT doesn't always work. Is the long NW usually at the same time? Could w2s help? - 1 hr prior to typical NW and do for a week.
If he understands well then I would do lots and lots of talking before nap and BT a long WD to relax him best you can. Does having DH do BT or NW help? Sometimes mixing it up helps a bit.
Are you medicating at all?
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Lovely advice, as always, from Sara and wanted to say from a survival standpoint, can't you make yourself quite comfortable in his room? Maybe a camping pad ( OK, maybe, just comfortable enough!) it seems like when these blips hit the more at ease and calm you can remain the quicker they will settle out and if you just accept that this is where you both are right now and you need to ( only for now!) be in there every night then maybe that could help? I know I am so cross when I come trumping downstairs to help DD and then settle in down there, probably doesn't help here resettling process. Just a thought. Hugs!
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Thank you sara and maryn!!
Last night he sttn. He cried out at 515 but ss and woke at 635. Still omly 10hrs but at least he didnt need me!
He speaks really well. Since around 18m his words have started to pour out of him. Even the daycare worker has told me how well he speaks compared to a lot of boys that are older than him there.
He has been started to combine two words into sentences the last month or so.
I have heard about a developmental leap at this age with a language burst afterwards but since ue is speaking fairly well i though it wouldnt be relevent??? Could it still be developmental even if he speaks pretty good already?
The problem with these long chatty nw are that he gets bored, i guess, and starts calling for me repetedly after about 15-20 minutes. If i dont go in he gets very angry and hysterical so i find myself doing wiwo for hours between chatting. For ex: he wakes, chats for 20 min, starts calling, i ignore, becomes distressed, i do wiwo amd resettle, and rhen he chats for another 15-20min and the cycle starts again. If he was chatting to himself the whole time and then ss back to sleep i guess it wouldnt be too bad as i could just stay in bed until it ended but i am literally back and forth thr whole time. If i stay with him during the nw, lying on the floor for example, he just babbles the whole time until he falls back asleep. I guess that as much as he is an independent sleeper he doesnt like to be awake in there alone for hours, yk? Its the same in the evenings. More then half an hour of rolling around before falling asleep and he will start calling me in repeatedly.
So now i am wondering how long could this take? Should i just stick to routine? Should i let him nap longer - up to 2hrs, or keep capping at 1.5hrs? He is not in the best mood when being woken at the moment. Usually he is pretty easy about it. Should i try ebt even though there is chattiness or keep to normal bt even if it is obviously causing an ot night even if he sttn?
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How are you resettling? Maybe it is time for more of a "talk from the door approach?" I would keep the nap at 1.5 if I were you. All that chattiness sounds like he needs it at that. I would give it a week or so at that and see what it gets you. Hang in there hun, sounds like Liam is a tricky character but sounds just precious and precocious with all those exciting new words!
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Yeah I wonder if in all this a bit of a habit has formed :-\ if you know it's not teeth and he is well then it's likely developmental or OT from it all. Which case you just have to be consistent and kind. If you feel being there doesn't help him to go to sleep any quicker at NW, and your making no progress a sit at the door approach might be a good idea, he can hear you but not see you. Minimal talking too. - you have to stay calm and remind him it's time for sleep.
I would talk to him a lot about his sleep - why sleep is important for him, that he can go to sleep on his own and you will help him but not be in his room anymore. That it's night time and mummy and daddy also need to sleep at night in their rooms. That your always there for him if he is Scared and will come, but not stay. he needs to go to sleep sleep In his own room with his teddy or whatever he needs that isn't you.
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Thank you both!
Nap time yesterday was a scream fest once again and i ended up letting him nap again as long as he likes, which was 1hr50 (maryn, i saw tour post about sticking to 1.5hrs too late) but bt was ok and he self settled within 15min. We had a 20 min nw at 0030 that i had to resettle but he did not scream so thats good, and then he wu at 0650 so the night was only a bit more than 10hrs but I feel like we are getting somewhere with wu getting later and no screaming/settling easily at bt. I think also that most of this mess is ot so i am trying to stay consistent. Maybe i will keep the nap at a max of 2hrs for a bit longer to see how things pan out and try to get him cought up a bit before i cut the nap again. There has beene no chatting the last few days so maybe in that respect things are getting better and the chattiness before was develomental whan i cut the nap the first time?? Who knows... If i can get a 10.5hr night with a 2hr nap is that considered ok or should he be doing more than that? If thats ok and i can get that out of him i think i will stay with it a few days before slowly cutting the nap and bringing bt earlier. I am not enjoying him falling asleep after 8pm at all... How much should i bring bt forward for every 15min cut in the nap? Maybe he got ot from me cutting the nap but bt was too late?
I think part of the creaming at nap time might have to do with him relaxing. Our bt routine has been consistent since he was born with bath, getting dressed while i sing to him and then one more songe while i hold him and then into crib. I think at nap time its difficult for him to wind down. I have to litterally pull him away from his toys. He wnt admit he is tired even when he is exhausted. I try to entice him to his room with a story but he doesnt eant only one or two stories so then he starts to cry when i say that we have read enough. I sing to him the same songs as at bt while changing his diaper and holding him and then lay him down in his crib but he screams the whole time. He wont relax...
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Bt today is a disaster. I drcided to do what you bothe recommended and i am by the door but he is hysterical and no matter what i say he wont calm down.... What should i be doong? I feel like im doing it wrong...
Update: he finally fell asleep but i had to go in twice and then talk and shush all the way out explaining to him that i was right by the door and he can close his eyes. Geez, that took 50 min! Pure hysteria!
The day was:
WU 0650
Nap pd 1315 hysterical, sat by him, asleep 1330-1450 woke himself crying
Bt pd 1905 asleep i tried ebt because he woke crying after 1hr20 at nap time. He whined/chatted for 15min and then when he realized i wasnt coming in he started to cry. Talking to him from the door only made him angry and hysterical. I went in twice to calm him and when i left he got mad again, thats why the second time i spoke to him on my way out.
I feel like something is going on here and i cant figure it out. Usually when he gets ot he comes out of it within a few days if i stick to the routine. He hasn't screamed this way since st...
Ugh i dont know what to do...how do i get him to sleep past 10-10.5hrs?! He is exhausted and cries upon wi in the morning and from nap. My mom is coming to visit us for a long weekend on thursday, i cant have this screaming every night...
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Update: he finally fell asleep but i had to go in twice and then talk and shush all the way out explaining to him that i was right by the door and he can close his eyes. Geez, that took 50 min! Pure hysteria!
50 mins isn't that long really. I know it feels like a lifetime though :( youdo. Need to stick with it though and do it for all naps and BT. Going I n to reassure is perfectly ok too, just don't get held hostage in there YK?
Stick with it A week. Keep EBT or at least max 10.5 hrs total A in day or 12.5 hrs day max. He will eventually sleep.
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Do you mean 10.5hrs total A for any length of nap? Or for 1.5hr nap? So i should go back to capping then?
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Total A so if he does a 1.5 hr nap then do a 12 hr day. If hedoe s 2 hrs then 12.5 hr day.
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So he woke today at 615 which makes a night of 10hr20 with a nap of 1hr20 yesterday. Horrible! He did sttn though...
I am thinking i need to bring the nap earlier and try for 1300-1500 maybe? In the past that has helped for consistent ew...
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If your gut tells you that is what he needs thing of or it. BUt you have. To stick with it, or what you have done the last few days for a good 3-5 days as routine changes do mess them up al title but they need to adjust YK?
Ie I'm working on pushing Ts day and it's not all smooth sailing but it can take a good week to see results. The more you change things up the more confused they and you get,
(Hugs) I know it's really tough Hun
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He ended up asleep for nap yesterday at 1320. We are still getting screaming for naps.
Bt is much better but he will not settle to sleep with less than a 5hr A time if nap is1.5hrs or more. Yesterdays nap was 1hr45.
This was yesterday
WU 0615
Nap pd1300 asleep 1320-1505 with a lot of screaming when pd. I cant figure out why... It is so unlike him!
Bt asleep at 2005
NW 2220-2230
NW co at 0515
WU 0640
He is so restless in the early morning, tossing and turning a lot. Considering he will not sleep with less than a 5hr A how do i get a shorter day? What could cause the restlessness? Do ot or ut cause this? Or just developmental? It had been at least 2 weeks now if not more...
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Total nap refusal today. He went between babbling and screaming
I am now thinking its a mix of his molars and nap refusal/nap dropping. He says he has pain at the back of his mouth, although i do take what he says regarding pain with a grain of salt because he likes to say all kinds of stuff about pain... But, i think i feel a bump and that tooth has bothered him before about 2 months ago, so maybe...
When do you think i should do bt if wu was 640? I will medicate beforebt and hopefully it will help.
Considering i *maybe* only feel a small bump under the gums how long is this gonna take? We cant have screamfest and horrible sleep for months, can we????
About nap dropping, I guess the fact that he needs at least 5hr A before BT and ew I should actually push the nap instead of making it earlier. Today is the first day I tried to bring it back to 1300 and it totally backfired with the nap refusal. He was in there until 1345 when I got him up. So should I push the nap instead of bringing back? If so, should I still keep it at 1.5hrs or cut it more? Would NND's be a better option? How does that work?
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I think if your medicating and seeing no difference in his sleep patterns then no its unlikely to be just pain. What I have seen happen a lot is that LO go through a rough patch starting around 15/16 months (developmental WW leap) then this leads into teething and the 18 nth sleep regression. Once it is all over, or things have settled LO is then a bit lost on what they need, how to settle themselves, and then end up in an UT/OT loop, or needing some ST again. We were lucky in that one or two nights of WI/WO always worked well, but both my boys love their beds, and have never wanted to settle with us in the room or on us unless really sick. (believe it or not this can actually be a PITA ;) )
I think he is too young for NND, unless its the odd one, I really do.
heres what I think could work, it will be hard but things are hard already hun aren't they? I am not saying you need to do this ok. Its only if your ready and comfortable.
* I would go for a longer first A. 5.5 hrs A. Nap and 5 hrs A to BT. Id be tempted to push that first A to 6hrs if this doesn't work but id give it a good week.
* WU is no earlier than 6am. If it is the day doesn't start till 6. Keep him in his room in the dark. Even fi you have to lie with him.
* Naps and BT. - No more sitting in his room till he falls asleep, same with NW. You explain to him before his nap and bt the day you start several times through the day etc that he will sleep in his room and mummy is always there if he needs you. Mummy can hear you if you need me. But, mummy isn't going to stay in your room anymore till you fall asleep. You do BT/Nap routine. Stay maybe 5 mins extra for cuddles/comfort/reminder then you leave. You stand outside the door and only when he does an I need you cry (not a tantrum) do you go back in. Comfort. then leave in no longer than 5 mins. This could take hours. Abandon the nap after 45mis if you have too and BT you continue till asleep.
* You can use your voice to comfort from outside the room.
* Do not wake in the morning unless he sleeps past 7/7.30 and let him sleep up to 1hr45 for his nap to start with
He will be angry, he will be sad, he will probably scream. But, I think he has forgotten how to sleep on his own and this will help him learn that he can do it and that you will come if he needs you but you won't stay with him all night, every night. That he doesn't call the shots on naps and BT. YK? He will get OT, but you can use EBT to manage this. He will eventually sleep I promise. You will likely want to get some ear plugs :-/
What do you think? - You do not have to do this ok, Im just giving you an option to move forward if you think your ready and he needs it ok. I will hold your hand through this xxx
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Hi Maya, we had a blip in sleep at one point that sounds like a lot of what you are going through. I think it was mostly a molar/developmental (language) leap, but who really knows.
Id be tempted to push that first A to 6hrs if this doesn't work but id give it a good week.
I agree with this - Ben's first A time is usually 6, even 6.5hrs (but he's prone to EWs which makes that A time longer), so his second A is usually only around 4.5/5hrs (WU 6am, Nap 12:30-2:30, BT 7/7:30pm) but he's usually tired enough for BT
Naps and BT. - No more sitting in his room till he falls asleep, same with NW.
^ This. My CM could always get him to nap beautifully, but at home, we were having to sit with him in order to get him to fall asleep otherwise it was complete hysterics. Eventually I just bit the bullet and decided enough was enough, and I gave him some cuddles, laid him down, and left. I would talk to him through the door "Mommy is right here, lie down, time for sleepy" reassuring him. I would have to go in sometimes, but honestly I often found that made it worse and just reassuring from the door was the best thing. It was exhausting. DH was always better at it than me, but eventually he went back to sleeping independently. Sometimes we still have issues, but I do not stay in his room. I think it was becoming a habit for him and he was getting used to having me there (sigh, even writing this makes me sad because what mommy doesn't want to cuddle her kiddies to sleep?). I think maybe pushing that first A might help a little with the nap. We never had any issues settling at BT though, thank goodness, but I did have to do it for some NWs and followed the same process.
But, I think he has forgotten how to sleep on his own and this will help him learn that he can do it and that you will come if he needs you but you won't stay with him all night, every night.
Pretty much what happened with us!
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I totally agree that all of his former independant sleep has gone a bit down the drain the past few months. My mother is visiting us the next few days so i will start ST once she leaves.
I noticed that you recommended a 6hr A. Liam goes to daycare every morning and is not home until 1300 so nap cannot be before then. When we were getting good sleep we were doing nap at 1315-1330 with wu around 7 so he can handle a bit more than a 6hr A nicely, a 6hr A or less always got us a short nap. At the moment he is getting closer to a 7hr A with these EW but there is not much i can do because of daycare.
So, considering nap cannot be before 1300, how do you think we should plan our day?
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A longer first A is ok Hun, maybe try a fixed nap of 1.15pm or 1.30pm. Give 1hr45 to start with and see how he goes with BT at approx 7.15/7.30 the long first A will mean he may need an earlier Bt to start with - plus he will get OT from ST but he will come right :-*
Once your mum has left, or your close to st give us a bell and we will help you through the ST x
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hi sara,
just wanted to update. after my mom left i started to st again. i really didn't need to do that much actually as he started screaming less the last few days before we started the st. i think a lot of it was developmental. anyways, we are back to IS and things are pretty good! lets hope it keeps up!
this is what we aim for
wu 645/7
nap 130-3
bt 745/8
does that sound ok?
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Looks good :) glad he is settling down on his own. So much of this is developmental and it's such a struggle isn't it! :-*
Well done!