BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: labrodyk on November 14, 2014, 03:14:30 am
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Hello again!
I've always had incredible advice from the toddler sleep boards and I'm hoping some people have some advice or guidance...again.
My son is now 2 exactly and we're in the middle of toilet training and he's going really well (wee's and poo's in the toilet, dry for naps, pull up nappies for bedtime). He needs to go on his terms otherwise he won't go but we've rolled with that and it's worked so far. That said, and i'm not sure if it's developmental, he is VERY grumpy. He mopes, he whines, he tantrums excessively and he generally just seems tired. I could be wrong but I think our routine is just off somehow.
He eats really well but often I can stop the whining by feeding him. He's a very clever little cookie so I wonder if he's bored too as I've been couch bound with impending back surgery in a week! I've also never met a more independent 2yo; everything is 'Harry do, go away mummy' and that includes making his own sandwich which he does with ease except asking me to cut it :o :o
Anywho; with a bad back he is waking earlier than I would really like and I'm probably being fussy but I would love to change that if at all possible.
WU: 6 (last few days has been chatting at 6.20 on the dot)
OOB: 7
Nap: 1.30 - 3.15 (capped, but quite often already awake/dozing but laying quietly)
BT: 7.30
Thought I would throw it out there to see if anyone had any suggestions. I'm probably being precious but his mood is just really upsetting me and I need him to be happier to play with other people and be less grumpy as I can't bend or lift anything heaver than a 1L bottle of milk for 6-8 weeks after surgery.
Muchly appreciated!
Laura
x
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If he is just two I bet he is in the middle of a growth spurt/developmental leap and really not much to do but ride it out! Love the independence and stellar sandwich making skills, too cute. Fx your surgery goes well, lots of vibes!
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Hi Laura,
(HUGS) for your back issues, I know it's hard to focus on much else when there is constant nagging pain. Your DS sounds like a marvellous little chap!!! ;D
Can you tell me what time he used to wake ???
I'm wondering if 7.5 hours to his nap is too long Hun ??? Even though he is still resting until 7.00 it may be having an effect. Short afternoon A time over riding long morning A time does work well for some LO's, but it may be worth a try moving his nap earlier. Do you think he would be ready to go down earlier ??? Or would you favour sticking with his 'set nap'and waiting it out ???
If he is just two I bet he is in the middle of a growth spurt/developmental leap and really not much to do but ride it out!
Absolutely, it most definitely could be all down to the birthday leap, and just a matter of time.
x.
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Thanks for everyone's advice - I really appreciate it.
He could absolutely go down for a nap a lot earlier but I was finding he was waking earlier (5/5.30) so I had been moving and capping the nap but today I did 1.45 and he was crying and so upset. What would you suggest I try and length? He's always done better with longer morning A and shorter evening...
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Hi Honey,
If pushing the nap out has worked for him, then I think you're right to stick with his current routine. When all is said and done I agree that this is most likely one of those periods that you just need to ride out. I know that isn't the best news, but it does happen, and there is a lot going on, plus he has just turned 2!
Do you have any support, someone who could take him out and let him run off some steam, and give you some well earned rest.
(HUGS) x.
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Hello dear ladies!!
Thank you very much for your advice - I've been riding it out as best I can. I would however, really like to push wakeup a little later and I'm really struggling with routine. There is no consistency in what I and he does so I'm feeling quite lost.
We've moved to a big boy bed using a gro clock. He understands the concept and stays in bed chatting until 6.45am (the time I've set). Last night we had a few delay tactics to get out (1x wee, 1xpoo, sore teeth) and then silent but a little chat just after 8.
He seems really tired at midday but we just kinda keep going as I've done earlier naps and he takes a while to either fall asleep, not sleep very long or wake earlier in the am.
Currently we'ee doing
WU: 6 or chatting from around 6.20
Nap: 1.15 for as long as he'll sleep. Sometimes 1hr sometimes 2 but does take about 20mins to fall asleep. Letting him sleep no later than 3.30 but that is very rare.
BT: 7.30
I'm second guessing every thing I do because what I do one day with a good nap and a good wakeup, is the complete opposite the next day. Just keep going around in circles :( I try to read him but I'm useless, and again, keep second guessing myself.
I'm also having back surgery on Monday so really keen to have some kind of routine in place :(
Appreciate your help!
Laura x
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He has a pretty long morning A time vs a short after nap A, would he nap any earlier? Tbh I am not sure how much consistency you can achieve as he will probably be unsettled due to mom being out of action for a bit.
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Hi Laura,
Just dropping in to say that between 18-24 mo we had very long chatty times falling asleep. Lo2 was on her way so you can imagine I was freaking out trying to fix it! Turned out there was nothing to fix. The chatting was entirely developmental, I don't know why but it's what he needed to do right then, there was so much going on in his head. I'm not sure if that helps you or not, but if he is happy chatting in his bed, I wouldn't worry too much.
Best of luck with the back op!
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What time would be more suitable? I'm trying not to encourage the early rising by putting down early but doesn't seem to be making much difference...
He's never tacked on in terms of sleep time but having watched him this morning, it's more like 5.45 he's waking and then laying quietly.
What roughly should his routine look like in terms of A times or set naps? He takes 1/2 hr currently to drop off from 7.30 bedtime and is happy and chatty From 6, So that's only 10hrs!
Got the gro clock but it's not doing anything. He just wakes up and chats and waits for the sun but doesn't go back to sleep. He's also now waking au 6am shouting wee mummy wee mummy and I don't not want to take him :(
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Hi honey, how long has been out of nappies? Just wondering if him being more aware of his bodily functions is having an impact on his sleep?
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About a month of no nappies Naomi! Nappy pants/ pull ups at bedtime though.
Thanks for replying. I'm just lying in hospital at the moment and can't sleep so thought I'd see what kind soul is trying to help me. Knew you'd be amongst them :)
Yesterday morning I watched him wake at 5.45 but didn't actually speak until just after 6am calling "wee mummy". He did another big wee on the toilet (nappy pants were wet though) but of course wouldn't go back to sleep.
His gro clock is set for a lot later than when he wakes (set for 6.45) but he is staying put until the sun comes up.
Being in hospital my sister put him down at 1.20 and he was standing at her door at 3.01, lol. Gro clock set for 3pm for naps.
Thanks for everyone's help. You have NO idea how amazing my husband and sister are finding your advixe. I'm relaying what they should do to them and they thank you dearly. Me too.
Laura
xx
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On the early morning pee question - does he have a potty? Would you be happy for him to use it in his room? Yk, get up, have pee, go back to bed. I wonder if he's maybe a bit young for it but it would get round the 6 am pee call for you.
Best of luck for today!
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Bless you sweetie, I hope your surgery went well.
It may well be that he is waking more at the moment as he is aware of the developmental change around PT, and aware enough in the early morning to know that he needs to pee and that he doesn't want to do it in his pull-ups even though he may have wet a bit during the night when he was in deeper sleep without worrying.
I agree that it might be worth putting a potty in his room like weaver suggests.
Also, if you are in hospital for a while it may be worth not changing anything too major in terms of tweaking routines anyway, as he may be affected by you being out of he house and him away from his normal routines with you iyswim.
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Thanks so much ladies that makes complete sense!!
Unfortunately he flat out refuses to use the potty and has a toilet seat and needs help with undies/pants.
Interestingly, the only time he's EVER slept close to 7am and even a little after was the morning the other week he was completely dry overnight so perhaps that's always been his issue, lol. Or not, maybe just a coincidence.
In regards to routine, what would you feel is going to help him get the most rest and happiest mood. He's not going to like having me at home but not do anything with me - it's not really like going back to work is it?!?
1.20 (or way earlier) until he wakes or 3pm with 7.30 bedtime? I'm only keen to keep the 7.30pm this time is for my husband's mental sake too! He's going to get a hard dose of reality poor guy and he's so amazing when I'm well too.
Thank you :D
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I think if he's staying still until the sun comes up on his clock that's a really good thing. E does this and some days I think, surely you need more sleep lovely as she is so grouchy but there's not much I can do as she is very much in charge of her own sleep now - I can only offer the bed and the right conditions and it is her job to sleep.
I think the mood this a this age can be so much more than just routine. It doesn't sound like he's grumpy on WU if he is staying quietly in bed until the clock sun. I would imagine the mood is more the combination of his birthday leap, Pting, and you being out of action. If you are at home but not able to play for a bit. I know this is something E found hard to cope with, so you may all need to just ride it out for a bit. Are there things you can do with him quietly and while in bed - reading, watching a film and snuggling, some non-messy craft things like threading cotton reels and seeing wool through punched cards - things you can do together to help top up his cup of quality time with you without damaging your back.
This might well help the mood, but tantrums will happen at this age - can he be distracted out of the situation? Have you read playful parenting? I have found some helpful techniques in their for dealing with E's tantrums.
If you're sure a sleep tweak is needed then as you are getting EWs I would suggest moving the nap slightly later but keeping WU from it and BT the same. But I'm not sure it is really the answer for now.
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Thanks for your suggestions! I've only been home a few days but I'm already struggling with him.
I can't get him to willingly take a nap, at any time. We calm down, try to read books but then he starts screaming to keep playing or more books despite being tired. I got into a screaming match with him today and now I feel so terrible.
What can I do?
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If you are regularly getting nap resistance/refusals then it might be time to make a tweak, but only if it is happening consistently. Could you post your EAS for us for the last few days?
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He's fine once he gets into bed - takes up to 15min at nap and 30mins at bedtime to fall asleep but it's the getting him into his room, turn gro clock on, hop into bed that causes issues. Heaven forbid you offer 'assistance' with any of these, he loses his mind and screams "harry dooooo, mummy go away".
EAS is all over the place so no real consistency but...
WU: 6 or earlier.
Gro clock: 6.45. Stays happily in bed until the sun comes up but doesn't go back to sleep.
Nap: 1.30-3. Have been waking him but he doesn't like that much and after all the fussing it might be 1.50 by the time he's actually asleep and I then feel bad waking him.
BT: 7.30. Asleep by 8 usually.
I thought by moving the nap out that he'd sleep longer in the morning but it's not doing anything.
Bedtime resistance is nowhere near as bad but he'll procrastinate with asking to do another wee or take ages crawling up the bed and under covers or keep calling me back to chat, kiss, etc once I've left. I usually indulge him for the wee (mostly an attempt but sometimes he'll go) and I go back in once and kiss him again and then I say no more. He doesn't hop out of his bed at the moment which I guess is a good thing.
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After trying to keep H awake yesterday in the car at 1.20, tantrums, tears and refusing to nap, he FINALLY fell asleep in his bed after 2pm. I let him sleep and he woke on his own at 3.20. I then adjusted bedtime and put him down at 7.50pm. It then resulted in a groan/noise at 3.30am but then not a peep until 6.55am and he hopped out of bed at 7 when gro clock sun came up.
I have NO idea what to make of this at all. Later nap, later bedtime, complete exhaustion or coincidence? Is there any way of trying to maintain this?
Thanks so much.
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How old is he now?
It may just be he really needs a later nap now. You say you pushed the nap later recently, how long ago was that and how much later had you moved it. Perhaps try the same times tomorrow and see how you get on?
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He's 25 mo now, 26 months on the 15-Dec.
I've been going back and forward between 1 and 1.30 for months and months now because he keeps getting into these overtired loops. I can't work out when the optimal time is based on his mood/signs as he's all over the place. He was dead tired and tantrumming non stop from midday yesterday. he was definitely overtired and worked up from yesterday which was why he took so long to fall asleep once I got him into bed....
Not really sure what times to try as it was all so sporadic and crazy! 2pm (hopefully he wakes by 3.30) with BT at 8? Would prefer not to push bedtime any later than that.
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It might be that while the nap is possibly a little early for him it will lead to days when Ut and days when OT, while a slightly later nap may even out his sleep.
Is he teething at all?
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Thanks Naomi, I'll try from 2pm (?) today and see how we go!
We've been teething for 2 years. Lol. I think we have 1 molars are still sprouting. They're all through I think, just growing down.
Eta: we didn't have tantrums but he took 10mins of 2 x bathroom trips, tucking in to get into bed and screamed "mummy come back here" when I closed the door - was 2pm when I left. but then woke at 3.13 so likely it was an hour or less of sleep by the time he fell asleep/woke up. I set his gro clock to 3.30 so he stayed in bed until then. Was pretty good the rest of the afternoon but got really excitable tonight and again procrastinated with bathroom trips but he was in bed at 7.55 with a little chatter just after 8 so hopefully he's gone to sleep now.
You'd think after 2 years I'd have some idea of H's sleep and what to do with him! Lol.
Thanks for your help.
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Hmmm, came running into my room at 11.30pm - first night he's come out of bed since we moved to BBB. Walked him back quietly and quickly. strange!! Ok, better get back to sleep - just thought I'd mention incase you saw this today.
.....and awake from 5.50am but quiet until 7 when he bounded out of his room with gro clock sun up.
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Hi ladies!
Just keeping tabs for my own sanity and incase anyone has any thoughts.
We're having a few NW's in particular last night at 3.30 he called out to do a wee. So i took him in silence (he went) and tucked him back in. I thought he went off to sleep but it wasn't for at least an hour that he finally settled - was talking and playing with his comforters. I then hear him just before 6 but he's been laying quietly until 7 on the dot when again gro clock sun comes up.
So the tantrums have leveled out to be replaced with continued toilet trips and stalling for nap and bedtime. Today I refused to get him up after he'd gone down for a nap screaming wee at the top of his lungs. Went on for a couple of mins then was quiet and came bounding out of his room at 3.30 when gro clock sun came up. should I extend the gro clock sun later for nap to 4 or is 3.30 ok?
He's also been really excitable and I can't determine whether this is his happy self (which we've missed because he was UT/OT cranky) or if the short nap/rest and short night + NW are making him a little OT and over the top.
ETA: I had to draw the line tonight at saying goodnight and closing the door as usual but not going back in. He'd done a good wee right before bed so I knew he didn't need to go. He cried "wee mummy" "come back here now" "come back please mummy" and squealed them too for almost 5 mins and still chatting at 8.30!! Hopefully he falls asleep soon. Does this sound like OT or just 2yo bedtime delay antics?
Thanks everyone.
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Hi Sweetie, first of all lots of ((((((HUGS)))))) almost all of us have been in a similar situation with our LO's, the 2 year leap was a nightmare in this house, I remember it very well, foreveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer!!! lol.
So, because this could be the 2 year developmental leap, and with everything in the mix it's a tricky one to judge. However, I am now wondering (just wondering) if this is the start of the 1-0 ??? Nap refusal is obviously part of the 1-0. So I am posting this link for you to take a look at, and let me know your thoughts. There is so much to the 1-0 transition, and it was certainly an education for me, so at the time I devised this info. Some light reading for you ;)
I'll be here when you've taken a look and have some thoughts on the matter Honey.
The 1-0 transition...Advice and Tips to help you through.
Vicki.x.
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Vicki! Hi and Thanks so much for your hugs of support and the light reading! 1-0? Where the hell did that come from?!
I'll be honest with you - he needs a nap!! Since I've pushed it out to 2pm (from 1.30) the last few days he has been so much more agreeable to take a nap so I'm happy with that plus it seems to have helped lengthen our mornings. As has an 8pm bedtime - well at least he's quietly in the morning but again, he's out of his room like a shot come 7am.
He doesn't like to be woken from a nap but he's obviously awake prior to 3.30 as he jumps out of bed the second his sun ticks over. Lol.
He's always taken a long time at night to settle; guess I'm just worried now with the shorter nights plus waling for the toilet or whatever reason that it all isn't enough...
Thanks so much for your help
Laura
x
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He doesn't like to be woken from a nap but he's obviously awake prior to 3.30 as he jumps out of bed the second his sun ticks over. Lol.
Oh I hear you Hun, DS absolutely HATED being woken from a nap, and I absolutely HATED doing it! Necessary evil unfortunately. Other than keep riding this out, the only other thing you could try is shortening the nap and the overall day length.
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
I'd ride it out for now though, as you've seen improvement.
x.
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Honey, this 1-0 transition is a really long one - it took possibly 6 months from start to finish with DD and even now he does need a bit of tweaking. You are probably at the start of things but there's no doubt he still needs his nap. We could never wake DD from her naps, she absolutely hard it. It did mean shorter nights for us towards the end of the process but it worked best for E overall. I would stick with that later nap now he's happy with it and if he starts getting really miserable and refusing BT if the nap gets later again you can deal with that when you need to.
Xx
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Thank you ladies! As usual you are all incredibly helpful and supportive.
Last night was different again with some unsettledness around 11pm for about an hour and then woke around 6 but was quiet for an hour. Today at the shops at midday he had a grand mal meltdown about getting back in the car and was so exhausted he was falling asleep in his car seat. His behaviour alwaus has me second guessing everything I'm doing :(
Will keep things as they are I guess. He's totally Mr Independent in that I cannot do ANYTHING. Makes it hard when he can't do something for safety reasons. Coupled with my sore and recovering back (just got an infection!!!), we both just end up frustrated and upset. :(
He's so tired and upset but wants to keep playing, screaming to do a wee or a poo. He's driving me crazy!! But obviously some OT built up because he's slept through his gro clock to almost 2hrs.
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Oh no, lots of infection go away vibes xx. My DD3 is getting into a similar "me do" phase and totally cannot do most of what she thinks she can. We are in tantrum mode all the time it seems over every little thing! Will be going crazy right along with you...
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It's SO infuriatingly frustrating isn't it?! More so the "mummy go away! Harry cook/clean/stack dishwasher/make sandwich" nonsense. We have stools all over the house that allow him to do everything he wants to do, I'm tripping over them all! What child (mummy!) doesn't want to have their meal made for them? He's just turned 2 but can (with direction) make a stir fry!!!
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Just want to add that in this house we could do with some "Me do" instead of all the "Mammy do!" I think it's marvellous ;) :-X lol.x.
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Oh Vicki, I'll trade you some mummy do for 'toddler do' any day!!!
I wondered what you ladies thought of my idea for this bedtime wee debacle I'm having at nap / bed time. It seems that if I go in and let him try he settles once he's back in bed quickly and quietly, otherwise he just screams and screams and I hate him going to sleep like that. Current routine is;
7ish - bath & pj's
7.30 - milk, quiet play & books in lounge room
7.50 - brush teeth, toilet & set gro clock
8ish - into bed.
I wondered whether I should casually 'trick' him into doing his toilet trip once he's in bed - eg. Going from teeth straight to bed then once he's in he ALWAYS grips my hand and says 'wee mummy'. Is it wrong/bad if I indulge him in this trip and let him go on the proviso he gets back in quickly and quietly falls asleep? It certainly not ideal but I can not stand the screaming and crying :(
Are there any other tips for dealing with this?
Many thanks
Laura x
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Hi Laura,
As you know that the "Wee Mummy" thing is just a diversion for you leaving him, how about you sit with him at a good time and write a list of all the things we need to do before bed. Then make it like a game at bed time, keeping it light and maybe putting a star against everything on the list as you go along, with lots of praise, this will distract him from his anxiety and give him a sense of achievement, as he is so independent. Then try some positive re-enforcement using whatever he covets as a a reward, stickers, coins etc. You could get him to decorate a special jar, and each time he goes to sleep like a big boy, in the morning he gets his coin or whatever in his jar, with lots of praise :). We're doing this again with Sam at the moment. Then maybe try saying, "Mammy is going next door to do x,y,z then I will be back to check on you. DH and I did this with Sam, it's really walk in walk out but with extra talking, and Sam would be much calmer, and often he would drop off after I had checked on him one time, ultimately we wouldn't need to do it anymore.
What do you think ???
x.
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Thanks Vicki! I'll try that - to be honest, it's driving me crazy and I'm dreading nap and bedtime. It used to be so easy.
We're having NW'w at 3.30 and awake for the day at 5.50 the last few days. In the morning he just keeps calling "mummy, come here now" over and over. Today he then started up with "wee mummy" soy husband took him and he did go (nappy pants were dry) but he won't go back to sleep, just talks to himself and then struggles to make it to bedtime. He has started to sleep a little longer at nap until 3.45. As I said, I hate to wake him so is 8pm bedtime too early? my husband thinks 8pm is late enough though :(
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It's a really long day Hun, 14 hours plus, I wouldn't go any later.x.
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I completely agree Vicki, it's such a long day!
I can't wait until he doesn't nap anymore
He refused to nap today and was very grumpy and uoset from 12.30. We decided to go for a drive and he was drifting off in the car around 2pm watching a movie, but then the iPad battery went dead and he screamed and cried for an hour at the top of his lungs for it back. Was a nightmare. He finally fell asleep at 3 for 40mins but was a crying, tantum mess all afternoon. Hubby put him down at 7.20 and he was quiet but I went to make a phone call and hubby came to get me at 8 saying he was crying and wanted to do a wee! I took him once and he went back to bed.
I don't understand why he keeps waking through the night, wakes so early and fights me for nap and bedtime. I really am at the end of my rope - I hate sleep time :(
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9.5 hours night sleep seems low. By the time he falls asleep and waking at or before 6, no wonder he can't make it to nap time and is grumpy and upset. Is there much I can do about this?
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It is low Hun, far too low, I'm pretty sure this is the start of the 1-0 transition, did you read the link I posted ???
x.
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i'm SO not ready for this!! Yes I did read the link but couldn't really pigeon hole ourselves into any of the options other than a long nap/short night.
Today he did a proper sleep but took me a while to get him into bed just after 2pm. Was asleep by 2.10 and got up at 3.40. Tonight was another bedtime battle and he got extremely upset (tears and all) that he couldn't do a wee when it was toilet time but somehow managed to squeeze out a drop on his 'one and only second trip after he was tucked in' :o I used your phrase of "I'm just going to stack the dishwasher, I'll come back to check on you shortly" and I left his room door open which he seemed to like but there were a few "mummy" calls and is having a nice chat 15mins later so hopefully he drops off soon.
To be honest, he is SO unhappy when woken from a nap and today really wasn't that bad (granted he had a lot of screen time because we were car hunting) but it's just I always worry about his sleep requirements. To say he's low sleep needs is an understatement. Just not sure what our best approach is!!
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If he is really low sleep needs then I imagine the nap is probably on its way out. Unless he is the type of kid who could do well on a long nap/short night kind of routine (and if you are okay with that). DD3 is 15 months and at best we get an 11 hour night with a 45-60 min nap. By age 2 I am sure she will not be napping at all! Which tbh is not really a problem because with two older kids I won't have to juggle stuff around naptime anymore. Some kids just don't like being woken, it doesn't necessarily mean they need the longer nap - my DD1 was like that. Well still is in the morning!
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DD hated being woken from her nap when we were nap-dropping but it had to be done otherwise we had bedtime trouble, night waking, EWs and general bad mood from nights being disturbed or too short. I used to have a snack ready as soon as I woke her and we'd go straight to cuddle on the sofa whilst watching Peppa pig or something completely inane. After 20-30 mins she would usually perk up.
I know it can be horrid to wake LOs but some children wouldn't ever drop the nap left to their own devices, whereas others will refuse it. Think of it like when a newborn has day-night reversal - you wouldn't just let them sleep as much as they wanted in the day without expecting silliness at night time. Similarly with the 1-0 you need to help them re-adjust when they are doing their sleeping and that means short-term pain (cutting the daytime sleep with inevitable bad mood) for longer-term gain of better longer more restful nights.
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This is a really great explanation Katherine - I've not thought of it like that before.
Just to add to the thoughts - my DD didn't cope well with being woken from the nap - although we tried as Katherine suggests for over a week. In the end we just shifted nap later and later as DD naturally did. Eventually BT got late enough (9.30pm!) that it started affecting DD with OT etc so at that point we just tried to keep her going in the day and went for NNDs. She was still napping every few days for a while, but she still dropped them quite quickly really.
If you really feel waking from naps isn't an option - this is a possibility, if you and he can cope with the later nights.
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You ladies are so helpful!
I'll have a think about how best to approach it and what is best for Harry. He's not as terrible on short night, long nap but I think any later BT is going to be a stretch and OT will most definitely hit.
Yesterday, EAS was
WU: 6.00
Nap: 2.00 (asleep 2.10) - 3.40 he got out of bed (gro clock is set to 3.30)
BT: 8.20 (asleep by 9, May have been slightly earlier)
WU: 6.25 chatting until 7 for gro clock
So a slightly later WU with a later bedtime...
If I was to cap the nap, what times should I stick to? It's difficult to know the precise moment he falls asleep so might not get the timing right to wake him. Or is it better to just say 2-3 for example and not worry about the 'actual' sleep?
Thanks so much
Laura x
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I used to count from the time DD went quiet as the start of sleep time, and work from there.
If he is used to 1.5h nap I would cap at 1h15 to begin with, give it a few days and if still not settling for around a 13h day then cut to 1h.
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^^ we always counted from start of quiet too.
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Same here, once quiet, you know LO is resting at the very least.x.
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Massive thank you again everyone.
Ok, that happens usually straight away here - apart from the toilet trips.
EAS today was
WU: 6.25
nap: 2.00 - 3.35
BT: 8.00
Asleep: by 8.30
Both nap and BT was relatively fuss free. One toilet trip for nap and absolutely no issues at bedtime not even asking for second wee (first time in a month) so not sure if I should cap the nap? Thanks for the suggestion to say I'll come back and check on him, saying that and keeping his door ajar seems to be helping slightly. Confirming that I'm capping to get a longer night? If I shorten the nap 15mins do I do the same with bedtime or keep to a shorter day? It's currently 13.5-14hrs. Guess I'm worried that he won't move his daytime sleep to nights so if he's down to bed earlier, will he wake earlier than he does now?
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If he's happy, well-rested, good mood etc on a 10h night and 1.5h nap then no, you don't have to cap. DD would have been a mess though on that routine so I would have capped to get a better night.
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It's really your call Hun. For many of us it's the long days that just don't work, because it really cuts into your down time, and if in a relationship 'couple time'. I found the long days and late nights hard to take, because I'm done by 8 PM latest!!! This means that it's not good for DS because my patience is low, so it's a matter of balancing as a family, if that makes sense ??? Admittedly I'm just not at my best come BT ::) It's a challenge for me these days unfortunately :(.
My gut tells me that even if things go smoothly now it won't be long before his nights become later and his days even longer, it's just the way things tend to progress from own experience and other BW's. So like Katherine says, if everyone's happy with the 'status quo' then you can carry on for now, otherwise I would just cap the nap 15 mins shorter at first, and play it by ear WRT BT, as you won't really know what's right without trial and error, but I would probably shoot for this in the first instance:
WU 6.30 (ish)
Nap 2 to 3.15
BT 7.45
Hoping he'll settle within the 15 mins giving a 13.5 hour day with a 1.15 nap.
x.
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This is absolutely what happened to us, BT got so late eventually that I wS struggling with not having enough time for DH and me to rest and eat etc before sleep. Also DD hit a point where she wasn't happy with the shorter nights, but thankfully for us, this coincided with her coping with NNDs.
There are no hard and fast rules teally, if he seems to be coping with the longer nap and shorter night then I'd personally say keep going until it doesn't work, but once you reach that point then yes you will need to cap the nap if he doesn't start refusing them naturally.
:)
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Hi ladies, you're so amazing! Thanks for taking the time to share your advice with me.
We've had a rough few days and I'm not sure what I'm doing especially as our nights aren't lengthening (in fact they're shortening) and H is getting quite upset.
I think I'm already going to have to cap the nap. Today's EAS was;
WU: 6.25
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 2 until just before 4
BT: 8
The shennanigans aren't too bad but the Behaviour before and after nap is pretty grotty and DH and I are starting to collapse by the time he's actually asleep so missing some time alone. DH thinks I should pull the nap back and cap it at 1.45-3.15 with BT at 7.45. Do you think that would work? Giving him some time to fall asleep?
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Hmmmm, things are going a bit topsy-turvy and his mood is taking a turn for the worst. He's just crashed out on the couch at 1.30 which he's never done before. Not sure what to do for bedtime tonight and naps moving forward?!
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Could he be coming down with something? DD3 crashes out like that when she is getting ill.
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I wondered that but he seems fine other than constantly saying "harry still hungry" and eating me out of house and home - He hasn't stopped eating for 3 weeks!
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I know from other posts on here that a lot of kids sleep more during growth spurts (mine don't) and his eatng habits and age definitely point to that.
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Most definitely could be a growth spurt! I'll keep an eye on him.
Tonight he was in bed at 7.30 after (1.35/45 - 3) on the couch and he's chatted for 30mins, whinged for a min at 8 o'clock and seems genuinely UT yet it's the same # hrs until bed as usual just 30 mins earlier. I'm really struggling with the morning wakes and the naps which completely differ day to day - it's so confusing and unsettling for both H and I. I feel so out of my depth with this as nothing I seem to do helps him through this.
Should I be trying a different approach?
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I feel so out of my depth with this as nothing I seem to do helps him through this.
I know that feeling Sweetie ::) trust me most of us do :( but honestly, "Just take a breath and accept that for now you aren't going to be completely in control" There are so many things that go on when LO's are growing up, and sometimes you just have to take it day by day especially with things like 'growth spurts' . When you have got to a place in the past where everything is hunky dory, it can be hard to accept, but you can drive yourself in sane 'over thinking' during these tough periods. I say this because I have done it so many times, FAR TOO MANY! ::)
We're here for you, but give yourself a break and accept 'going with the flow' is the way it is for a few days. He WILL be okay. The main thing to do is to watch him as closely as you can, and go with your instincts as to what he needs. We can advise, but we can't watch him, and we will never know him the way you do :-*.
Lots of (HUGS)
x.
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(((Hugs))) Vicki said it all...tbh I got to the point where naps and bedtime were set and sleep was up to them, some days worked well and some didn't.
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Thanks ladies, that's really helpful. I'm doing what I think is right but he doesn't seem to respond positively to anything.
I pulled the nap back a good 20 mins yesterday from 2 to 1.30 and woke him at 3 with BT at 7.30. He was a lot better at night (fell asleep by 8 quietly) but of course woke earlier this morning cryng he'd lost his comforters just before 6. I returned them and he just chatted until 7 on his gro clock.
Is there any way of getting him to sleep a little longer than 6am (10hrs) or is that it? Even 1/2hr would be nice. Perhaps I'm being too selfish with this sleeping thing - I'm lucky and happy he does sleep well but the mornings kill me aks means he has even longer time until his nap at 1.30! Capping, moving, it doesn't make a difference seemingly. What would you all do? Just live with it or push/cap nap? He's still only 26mo this December...
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I think you need to shorten his nap hun, looking back through the thread he was quite frequently doing 1.5h naps pretty early on in this discussion so nothing's really changed there....I would take the plunge and cut to 1h15 or an hour x
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Ok! Thank you Katherine!, I can do that :) 1.30-2.45, would that be ok? Or too late with a 6am wakeup?
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We do a 12:30/1:00 nap with a 6/6:30 am wake up at she is 16 months (well almost!) so I could see a 26 mo going a bit longer. For us though bedtime is 8 pm as both A's need to be quite long.
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Ok, wow, absolute nightmare of a day and bedtime. Tantrummed to the point of screaming but bedtime was horrific. From 6.30 he was absolutely beside himself and at 7.30 he didn't want to turn his gro clock off the sun setting (well he did but then had a nightmare of a tantrum because he wanted the sun back on! Not because he wanted to stay up either, he was exhausted!).
After a 6am wake, I capped the nap at 1hr15min from 1.35 (took a little while to fall asleep) and I woke him at 2.50. His Behaviour seemed typical of OT but I'm not sure. Should I have pulled the nap back and/or bedtume?
I'm sorry, trying to go with the flow but it's so not me :( especially when H is so spirited and upset.
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Definitely OT, my poor little possum. All he's done is cry and tantrum since he woke up! By 9.30 he was crawling back into bed and was screaming in tiredness from midday. I managed to get him to collapse into bed at 1pm and let him sleep and he woke up at 3pm - so 2hrs.
Not quite sure what to do so will keep trudging along and put him down at 7.30 tonight.
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Hun you have to push through the OT and stop letting him catch up with a long nap. He *will* get OT short term from nap capping until he learns to add the sleep to his night. If you continue to allow a long nap you will get a short night again and the spiral will continue.
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I do agree with this ^^^
I know it seems counterintuitive but pushing through really is the right way.
Adding hugs and support x
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Thank you ladies, it was just so hard yesterday - I didn't know what else to do as emotions were high :(
Could I please get some assistance in regards to what time the capped nap should be at? I'm all over the place now and very confused. He's now 26mo. He must have got a second wind because he was falling asleep in the car at 1pm (woke just before 6) and is chatting away 10mins later from pd at 1.30pm.do I get him up 1hr 15 mins from the time he's quiet or at 2.45 based on how long he's been 'in bed'?
He also doesn't want to turn the sun on his gro clock off which is proving testing? I've just been letting him have it on then turning it on once he's asleep. Is this an okay approach or perhaps there are alternative strategies I can employ?
Thank you so much for your continued support.
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Wow, we had a really bad day. I'm sorry for posting again, just very upset.
Since he didn't want to put the sun to sleep without a tantrum I left it on and he chatted from 1.30-2 but then came running out saying it was time to get up because the sun was up. He then was up and down, up and down crying/screaming and I couldn't get him to lay down or even be quiet. He just wanted the sun back since I'd put the clock back to nap mode. I totally lost my cool which did absolutely nothing for the situation. After doing a wee on the bedroom floor he finally fell asleep at 2.59 but then woke at 3 saying his clock sun was up so time to get up. So perhaps he's had 1min sleep today! I have no idea what is instore night wise or how to approach bedtime. I'll aim for 6.30 and see how we go. He doesn't tack on at all so I don't want us to spiral into more of the crazy loop we're already in if I put him down too early.
Sorry to continue to bother you all, I just need to clear my head by writing things down here too.
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Hugs hun, you're not bothering us, that's what we're here for :-*. Sorry for the rough day. Unfortunately this is what happens when you start hitting the 1-0, things get rather messy and nap refusals often happen. I would shoot for bt maybe 1-1.5h or so earlier than usual, I know you said he doesn't usually tack on but the 1-0 can often be a time when the rules change a bit. If he hasn't napped you have to give him chance to make up the lost sleep somewhere.
I would however not give in and change things up on the gro clock to avoid a tantrum. That could be majorly shooting yourself in the foot. You can't expect him to sleep if the sun is up, that's kind of against the rules...so no questions, sun goes to sleep next time, tantrum or no tantrum xxx
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Sorry to continue to bother you all, I just need to clear my head by writing things down here too.
Oh Honey, please don't think my last post meant in any way we are not here for you, I can just sense how stressed you are, and I know it is hard, so you could do with taking a deep breathe and realising you simply can't always 'fix' things overnight. I agree with everything the ladies have said in PP. I think what you need is a solid plan. A set nap time and nap length no matter what time he wakes. Then as suggested you can nudge BT forward on nap refusal days, if he is struggling. So I'd shoot for this maybe:
WU (whatever it is 6/6.30)
Nap 1.00 til 2 capped
BT 7.30 (asleep for)
Personally, I'd put down for his nap at the same time, but I'd also wake at the same time, if he takes a while to settle, so wake at 2 no matter what, or you won't have the consistency. I know it's hard nap capping and pushing through the OT, but it is the only way to get better nights. I have known many LO's end up on a 20 min capped nap! to get through the 1-0. Definitely put the gro-clock on no matter what, or that will just get messier, he'll get the message if you're consistent. I know any wavering from the 'gro clock' rules bites you in the ass! lol.
Also it's really important to remember that trying something for one day will very very rarely show results, you need to stick to a plan for quite some time, before you can conclude it's not working. I always find that a solid plan takes away the stress from me, all the changing up just drives me crazy. So you go with it and if it backfires, you crack on until BT. Do consider what you are doing on no nap afternoons though Hun, keeping it low key if possible.
Have you considered shooting for a 20 min cat nap in the car around 4 pm on no nap days ??? instead of EBT, because he hasn't tacked on in the past. This was an absolute life saver for us during the 1-0 on total melt down days, and although LO can be hard to wake, it's not long to get through to BT, so in some ways easier than waking from an earlier nap.
(HUGS) Sweetie.x.
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Adding to the hugs and support sweetie and also to provide some reassurance, E never ever tacked on, until the 1-0. It was her way of self regulating really.
Stick with it, it will get better x
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A plan!! Thank you thank you thank you Vicki. As I said, I feel so clueless and like I'm drowning. I've done what I think is right but it always makes things worse for H and I feel terrible. I understand it's next to impossible to gauge results from one day so I'll stick with your suggestion for a good week and come back to you all.
I know I shot myself in the foot with the gro clock and will stick to it but I can't even get him into bed he just holds the clock and screams "sun come back here now"! Lol. I'll be strict and push on though and just keep returning him to bed when he comes out?
What would suggest I do if he sleeps longer than 6/6.30 in the am? For now I'll just keep the nap time the same at 1 as you suggest. Would that nap time need to move at all.
taking big deep breaths too. Oh and I didn't think you meant you weren't here for me; I just feel so stupid constantly asking for help on the same sleep issue for 2 years. You'd think by now I would have some idea, but no..
Thank you again.
Xx
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I just feel so stupid constantly asking for help on the same sleep issue for 2 years. You'd think by now I would have some idea, but no..
Well lucky you! I ask for help on a million different issues, so you clearly are doing better than me lol ;)
If he sleeps longer in the morning, then I would keep nap time the same for now in order to try and combat the OT. You are of course exactly right that it could very well need pushing out, and I guess if he does sleep on and it is too early for him he will let you know, but you have to start somewhere. Would you feel better about starting out with a later set nap time in case he does sleep on in the morning, please feel free to have some input if you think there are tweaks to make the plan better.
WRT the gro-clock you could just take it out of the equation altogether right now, and just tell him "Mammy will come and get you when it is time to wake up" I fully appreciate that it is not helping the situation right now if he is getting upset about it, it seems it is what he is clinging to, to make the point that he is cross with sleep right now :( Or you could go shopping for an alternative clock.
Did I show you this Hun, my DS adores his and it is very relaxing. It fill the whole ceiling with stars and turns of after 20 mins if you want it to.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mookie-2303-Snuggly-Puppy/dp/B00CICEVSU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418807836&sr=8-1&keywords=dream+lites
Maybe introducing something fun and new like this could help him see his bed as a nice place to be again.
(HUGS) Honey.x.
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Thanks for the reassurance and help! I know I said I'd come back in a week but oh my gosh what a few days we've had. I'm mentally exhausted.
Wed 17/12
WU: chatting 5.30. Chatting intermittently until 7
OOB: 7.00 gro clock
Nap: in bed 1.00-2.00 (woken)
BT: 7.00. Chatting. Asked for toy at 7.20. Asleep by 7.40
NW: 11.40 chatting very briefly.
NW: 2.45 soft toy return after crying for toy's name
Thurs 18/12
WU: 5.50 chatting. 6.20 screaming at top of lungs for toys. Returned and chatted until 7.
OOB: 7.00 with gro clock
Nap: in bed 1.00 (asleep by 1.15) - woke him at 2pm but it took me 10mins to get him to open his eyes for good he kept falling back asleep and clearly didn't want to wake :(
BT: 7.00. So much fussing, trouble leaving bedroom, calling mummy 7.14. Screaming at top of lungs and hopping out of bed. Wouldn't calm down at all, asking for pats, to lie down with him. "Mummy come back here now". At 7.30 I just stood in his doorway with my back turned waiting until he fell asleep at 7.45pm.
The clock doesn't seem to be so much of an issue anymore (still a little hesitant) but it's the getting him to his room and consequently leaving plus the NW that are horrific. He screams SO high pitched and angry. Pulling at my hair, clawing at me to stay. It's so mentally tolling.
I don't know what to do.
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Lots of hugs, I would just stick with it for a while longer. At this age you definitely don't see results in a day or two, and as we discussed before things will get worse before they get better because you are taking away his daytime sleep but it will take him time to realise he needs to add it onto his nights. It's not easy hun but you can do this xxx
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He screams SO high pitched and angry. Pulling at my hair, clawing at me to stay. It's so mentally tolling.
I know this is hard to take :( but I am going to say something to you, only because you can't whack me over the internet ;)
From the outside looking in, it really doesn't look so bad :-X :-X :-X Here are the reasons why:
Yes, he is EW, but he is staying in bed until 7, and even though awake that extra rest makes a huge difference.
You are achieving the nap, at the time you want to, and that is great :) I know it is very hard to wake a LO, especially when you are desperate for the break yourself, so well done you!!! :-*
He is falling asleep at a reasonable hour despite the tantrums and struggles.
All of these are positives, which are very hard to see when you're in the thick of it, I know that, trust me. The NW tend to be inevitable during these periods, so you may have to get used to that.
It is so hard when you are shattered yourself :'( but just stick with it Hun, and hopefully it will pay off sooner rather than later.
Lots of (HUGS)
x.
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Thank you! I totally respect those positives (and I won't whack you). I am however concerned about how miserable my poor baby is - it really is terrible :(
I will continue with the plan but what do you make of last night's night wakings and early wake of 5.25?!
NW: 2.45-3.15. Ran into my room crying uncontrollably. Returned to bed several times then stood outside doorway until asleep (1Rtb) plus verbal reassurance. "Sleepy time now" and shushing.
NW: 5.25 Ran into my room crying. RTB x1 standing at doorway w/ verbal reassurance. 5.35 started chatting intermittently until 7.
He is of course an absolute basket case today and has cried since he got up.
I also have a family Christmas function on Sunday which we can't miss and includes heading out to show the kids the Christmas lights at 8-9pm! Is this impossible for him at this stage with only an hours sleep from 1-2 and waking early? I don't want to set us back but we can't not go....
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I make of that EW that he's just getting used to the new pattern. I agree with pps he's just getting used to it, give him some more time :)
As for your weekend plans - if you absolutely can't miss it then you can't. Life is life and you have to enjoy it, just get him to bed as soon as you can and be prepared for disruption. It may impact on the 1-0 transition but probably only a day or more so of extra bumps.
Here for you xxx
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Thanks for replying!! I'll stick with it, just can't believe how difficult it is! ???
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Good morning Honey, sending some (HUGS) hope today is a better day.x.
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Hugs from me too. Fwiw once I found a consistent plan for the 1-0 that I stuck to I actually found this the easiest of the nap transitions overall with DD. Hope that gives you some encouragement xx
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Thank you all so much for your hugs! Support and encouragement much appreciated. I've stuck it out a few more days. How do you think we're going? I'm confused about bedtime tonight so I'll have to just wing it.
Fri 19/12
WU: 5.35
Nap: into bed at 1.00 (asleep 1.10) - 2.00 (woken) *got out of bed screaming, hitting, kicking, biting. Returned and stood outside door with verbal reassurance.
BT: into bed at 7.00. Screamed in protest for me to return. Stood outside door with verbal reassurance, he was asleep by 7.30
** absolutely miserable and had several grand mal meltdowns. One at the shops which was horrific and I was crying too and another after bath where he held his breath (thankfully he didn't pass out).
NW: 2.30 - shout out
NW: 5.40 - shout out
Sat 20/12
WU: 6.50 chatting
Nap: into bed at 1.00 (asleep 1.15) - 2.00 (woken)
*bit of a fuss but I just used verbal reassurance from outside his door.
BT: Into bed at 7.00. Shouted mummy but not as bad as previous nights. Verbal reassurance (ssshhh sleepy time now) from outside door once in the first 5 mins then quiet. Asleep by 7.30
NW: 11.20 restless w/ cry out at 11.40. Asleep at 11.50. *could have been sooner
NW: 11.57 cry for 5 secs.
Sun 21/12
WU: 6.05 chatting until 7
Nap: into bed at 1.00 (asleep by 1.15) - 2.00 (woken) **NO FUSSING!**
BT: in bed at 9.00pm, quiet straight away. Asleep by 9.30 when I checked!!
NW: 5.30 ran into my room crying. Returned to bed in silence and he lay quietly until 7.
Mon 22/12
WU: 7.00
Nap: into bed at 1.00 (asleep by 1.15) **NO FUSSING!!** - 2.00 (woken)
BT: into bed at 7.00 and wasn't as happy going down but after about a minute he was ok and quiet until 7.30 when he started crying because his mosquito canopy had fallen down on top of him (Oops!). I'm hoping he was asleep by 8.
NW: 3.30 cry out for a few secs
Tues 23/12
WU: didn't hear anything until 6.58! Chatting until 7
Nap: 20 MINUTE NAP!!!
Into bed at 1.08 straight from the car so no wind down :( spent a few minutes crying 'mum' and hopping out of bed. It was a shorter A time to nap but he was visibly tired from about 12pm. Under tired? OT? No wind down? I woke him at 2.10 so an hour of being in bed.
Absolutely no idea what to do about bedtime? What are the recommendations when doing 1-0 and they don't want to nap? How early is early bedtime?
6.30? Earlier? He probably won't tack on so it could be a super early morning...
Thank you again!!
ETA: I put him down at 6.50pm but he was calling out and up and down like a jack in the box for a good 10mins. Hoping he's asleep by 7.30. Wishful thinking though, took him almost an hour and that's with me going in at 7.20 as he'd climbed up and got the monitor and was turning the night light on and off :(
He's so hyperactive now I can't work out if it's UT or OT? Surely with such a short nap he would be shattered?
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Also, maybe I should post this elsewhere but for the last week or so we've had a big toilet training regression. We had maybe 2 accidents when training 2 months ago and would tell us in advance for all toilet trips. Now, he's getting involved in activities (TV/iPad) or just standing in his room and weeing on the floor! Same with poo (going in his undies if I don't catch him first). He is fine at actually going 'on' the toilet when you can get him there (ie. I can more often than not take him willingly whilst at home before naps, meals, etc and whilst out he'll always happily go).
I've started a small sticker and treat reward system just to try and get back on track but is there a reason for this? I did get mad at him when he went on mum's bedroom carpet floor when I shouldn't have and I'm so upset I've scarred him :( any thoughts? Is this normal and relate to any development or age thing? It's so confusing and upsetting as he was going SO incredibly well.
Ta
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Well firstly, sleep wide it looks like you're doing really well, getting some nice long nights. I hope it was ok after the slightly shorter nap. What did you do?
With the 1-0 we did see E tacking on even when previously she never had, I think LOs just get that bit more tired at this point and can rack on even when they never have before. Having said that, he did take a nap, albeit a slightly shorter one, with my DD I probably would have gone for a similar BT bit setting up to enable slightly earlier BT just in case she couldn't cope.
Just a quick question, you mentioned above that he had a grand mal episode, is he epileptic? Or did you mean he had a really bad tantrum? I think the PT stuff sounds developmental really, with the sleep changes he may just have. Bit of a regression a bit, keep going with your usual techniques for dealing with accidents, reassuring him but reminding him where poos and wees go. If you need a bit more support on this it might be sensible to post on the PT board.
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Thanks Naomi!
The later wakeup now is great but the 1pm nap doesn't seem to be working (today he just had quiet time for an hour, but no sleep). Do I just keep offering quiet time at 1pm or should I move the nap (still capping at 1hr) w/ a corresponding Bedtime? If WU is closer to 7am would 1.30-2.30 work with 7 (or 7.30?) BT? Or do I just offer at 1 and have start having some NND? I put Frozen on whilst I did some Christmas wrapping and I was surprised how well he did cope until bedtime at 7pm. I'm worried about what tonight will bring especially as we have such a big day tomorrow with Christmas and all but I guess we'll just have to wing it!
Sorry, H isn't epileptic but has considerable meltdown tantrums. Thanks for the PT reassurance - I posted in the PT board just for some extra help if things don't resplve. Much appreciated.
MERRY CHRISTMAS
Laura
x
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I think there are probably two choices with the naps, the nap at 1 was working for you when you were getting a much earlier WU, so it seems like now he is coping with more night sleep and no nap. This is likely to be more restorative than a shorter night and later nap - as you would likely need to move BT later after a later nap.
If I were you I'd probably keep with the quiet time if he'll take it. If he dozes off on the sofa or in his room you can always let him sleep and wake him as per CN and do notmal Bt - it may be his way of self regulating. Keeping the quiet time will let you still have time to rest a bit or get things done in the middle of the day, so I'd keep it going if you can.
Re: tantrums, at this age these do happen whether an LO is tired or not, but it does depend on the child. I know we have spoken about this before on one of your threads, and I think perhaps his behaviour isn't just because of tiredness. Again, probably more suited to a post on a development board but what triggers the tantrums in the main and what do you do while he has them? Feel free to post separately about this if you feel it would help.
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Happy New Year Naomi & friends!!
Well we've had a bit of a roller coaster Christmas and we're trying desperately to get back on track but hitting a few road bumps.
1. Increase in time to fall asleep at night. There's quite a few call outs and tears at bedtime at 7pm but he's quiet but is taking up to an hour to fall asleep. Mostly closer to 8pm. If he's quiet should i worry or is he too OT to fall asleep? He's very hyper after dinner/bath...
2. Waking around 5.30 and sometimes falling back asleep, other times not. Last night he woke at 5.30 and had some chats and cries on and off but he fell back asleep after about 45 mins I think as he was quiet and asleep at 7am (woke shortly after).
He hates going down at 1pm but he is exhausted, I can tell. I've been waking after 1hr but it's so mean isn't it :( Well I feel mean.
Just wanted to see if this is normal and I should just power through as usual?
We're off on holiday in a couple of days so I'm hesitant to make any changes as we're driving to a timezone an hour behind which will make things interesting - do you have any tips?
Many thanks,
Laura
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1. If he's mostly quiet between 7 and sleep time this sounds more like UT to me - E can lie awake for ages absolutely silent and just when I start thinking it's "safe" to pop upstairs for something she'll call out, having been awake the whole time. She will settle eventually though.
2. If he wakes at 5.30 and self settles rear, how often do you think he's waking fully? Are you able to leave him until 7am or is he crying? This could be UT as well.
As for capping the nap, I know it does feel mean, but it isn't really. You have chosen that you would like BT to be the same, so he only option is to keep capping that nap shorter. If you still feel that it doesn't suit him then you would need to consider a later Bt.
As for the travelling, if you're not away for long, I wouldn't change too much at all. It's only an hour's difference and the journey itself (if long) might be enough to help shift his sleep to the new hour, or you may be able I keep his sleep at the same times (albeit different on the clock while you're away)
What do you think?
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Thanks for helping Naomi!
He's VERY good at lying quiwtly and can do it for AGES and tricks me into a false sense of security.
I ran him around the backyard last night and he fell asleep slightly earlier about 7.40 after pd at 7. I had to return him to bed a couple of times so perhaps 7.10 when he finally stayed put. NW at midnight calling for toys (Kindly woke me for New Year...oops!) haha. Then awake from 6ish.
He does stay put and waits for the sun on his gro clock which is set to 7am so he's doing really well in that regard.
We've been watching a movie the last week after nap time to encourage him to get up and be happy and it seems to help - without it he's a bit ed off! I'm keen to keep the earlier bedtime so will continue to cap :). It's probably only about 1 sleep cycle by the time he falls asleep at the moment.
As for this holiday, it's 10 days away so we'll just go with it as you do on holidays and try and get back on track asap.
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Sounds like a plan :)
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Hi Hun, I'm so pleased things are much improved, well done to you :) Good idea about movie time Mama! :) Finger's crossed you're all well rested for your holiday.x.
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Thanks Naomi & Vicki!
We had another quietly laying episode for an hour tonight - asleep just after 8 after 7pm pd. Is this UT or OT and should I be doing anything about it? With the earlier rise this morning I don't want to get into another UT/OT loop and ER issue especially as we're going away.
Getting him to stay in bed and not protest when I leave the room is also proving more difficult, which I assume is normal? What tips can I use to encourage him to not yell "mum, come back here now!!"
Thank you :)
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I would think ut if he is laying quietly at bedtime for that long. Personally I would either be capping the nap a bit more or pushing bt to 7:30 if possible, plus loads of running around if it helps. Love the movie idea!
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I agree - sounds like UT to me too.
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Yup, I agree UT, bless him for lying quietly, DS was never a fan of this when UT! this always made it harder to tell the difference between OT and UT, he just went loop the loop regardless lol.x.
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Hello ladies!
I'm sorry, I'm back :(
We went away on holidays (went back an hour in time zone) and things were crazy in that he was extremely upset the entire time we were away. I tried to keep naps and bedtime the same but we had to remind ourselves it was a holiday for us too. He was having naps of 30-45mins Max an hour in the car/pram. Pram nap meant a lot later nap of 2/2.30 until just after 3 rather than his usual 1-2 in bed.
What was amazing was that he did not fuss one single bit in all the hotels and motels we stayed in each night. He told me to go away and was asleep in 30-45mins just quiwtly lying there. Same for naps if it was in a bed (asleep within 15mins) but I was letting him sleep until he woke (Max 1hr20min)
First night back home and he did the same, and slept until past 7.30 - it was fabulous but I assume this was accumulated OT and the timezone change. But now, every nap and bedtime he cries and screams for me to come back complaining about not enough toy cars in the bed or requesting the door open when it is open (we then go through 1million variants of open before I say enough is enough).
We also had a 1hr night waking last night from 11-12 crying and upset and getting out of bed. Wakeups are back to well before 7 but he just lays quiwtly or chats until 7 on his gro clock.
Today I woke him at 2 after into bed at 1 (asleep in 5mins!!) and he was SO angry with me and was grumpy and upset - by bath time he was bouncing off the walls and very excitable but still upset and crying when leaving his room.
I just don't know what to make of it - I'd really hoped the change at BT would continue once we got home. It makes sleep times so stressful.
Do you have any ideas? Thanks so much.
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Since coming home have you stuck with the shorter, later nap, or have you gone back to a nap at the earlier time you were doing before your holiday?
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Went back to the routine we were doing before holiday and still trying to implement whilst away of 1-2 which usually works out about 45mins of actual sleep in bed. In the car it was about 1.45 he was waking when falling asleep at 1. Pram we only did 1 day as DH and I were so traumatized (that was 2.30-3) but that same day H tantrummed non-stop from 12.30 when we were at the Zoo! Crazy child....
Bedtume 7.30 home and away (a little later a couple of nights).
ETA: despite the battles, H was asleep by 8 from 7.30pd so he is tired.
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I guess I would take from it that whatever you were doing on holiday suited him better, were you outside more? Perhaps those shorter car naps were good for him and the later nap in the pram that day didn't harm either, although he might have been tired/hungry I suppose that day leading to the tantrum.
It does sound like you felt more able to go with the flow a bit while on holiday - do you think you could continue with this now you're at home?
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Hi Hun,
Lots of ((HUGS)) for you first of all, that sounds like a lot of stress, but some suprising success amongst it gladly.
Personally if you possibly can I would return to the routine he was on before the holiday. Even though he is OT I think it will be the quickest way to get him back on track. WRT the negotiating at BT, it is all delay tactics and I have BTDT so many times. My suggestion is that before he goes to bed discuss what will happen, ask him to pick the 1 car he wants to sleep with tonight, and tell him that is the final decision, then stick with it. If he wants the door open that's fine, but it is open and that's that, no 'tweaking' of openness ;) (if that is even a word lol)
It's super that he is waiting for the gro clock in the morning, that extra rest will really help.
Thoughts ???
x.
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Cross posted Naomi.x.
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Thanks ladies!
Yes, it was easier with facilities at our doorstep and he was swimming a lot (we don't have a pool or close by) plus cat naps were easier because we had the car. I don't drive so with DH back at work I can't continue with those.
I'll continue with our existing times and be consistent with bedtime as I had been doing and see what happens.
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Everything crossed for you Hun.x.
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Sending sleepy vibes honey xxxx
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thanks for all your sleepy vibes and positivity! I'm not sure what to make of the last day or so and tonight's been very strange.
1. Naps - I can't wake him. He cries and tantrums ans refuses to get out of bed. No amount of bribing or reward charts helps. It took me 30mins today. I went in and roused him and then went out came back and he was asleep again. I did this forever until my parents arrived and he got out but he just sooked and said "harry stay in bed, don't want to get out!" (He's 27mo :o ).
2. Bedtime - tonight was perfect. I've changed the tactic and allowed him to close the door to his liking before he hops into bed and I don't touch it. Tonight he went back to his usual "go away mummy" and didn't say a sound from 7.30. Until 8pm when he started clapping and then he appeared at my door way. I've taken him back 3 times (in silence) now.
he woke really early chatting around 5.30 this morning and I don't know if he went back to sleep but appeared at my side at 7am. He fussed at 1pm nap and I don't know what time he fell asleep but looked exhausted all afternoon and was a hyper mess by bedtime so I thought he genuinely was OT.
Mum confused about where to go from here - part of me wonders if the nap today was really short (took a while to go to sleep) hence the refusal to get up but the better bedtime farewell but then he claps and gets out 30mins later. We haven't had any night wakings but they're likely soon.
Am I doing the right thing? Something feels off or I'm missing something.
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Hugs, this nap dropping can be so tough.
DD was hideous to wake too, she would do that turning over, closing her eyes, ignoring me thing. In the end to save our bedtime and nights I ended up physically picking her up out of bed, expecting a tantrum and having a nice snack and CBeebies waiting ::). When we got deep into the 1-0 I actually found she was almost pleasant to wake after 15-20 minutes ie before she hit deep sleep. But any longer was awful. Worth thinking about?
It is different for everyone, but if you think he is getting OT from short nights, my suggestion would be to continue to cap the nap short (or even do it out and about in the stroller/car - I found it was easier to wake them in that situation) but bring BT a touch earlier if he's struggling, even just as a one-off. Night sleep is far more restorative and that way you avoid the issue of a long nap robbing your night and making the situation worse x
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I agree with Kathwrine that trying shorter naps and perhaps in the car/stroller is a good idea, particularly as this was what was working and helping while you were away. It will only be for a short spell until he can drop the nap completely and it may make all the difference. I suppose it's easier for him to stay in light sleep than it would be in his bed. So less upset when he wakes, and then tired enough at BT.
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Ok, that's really interesting, thank you so much!!
should I do just his usual one sleep cycle from 1 or cap? Perhaps I could move nap to the lounge or my bed where I know he does 45mins and then wakes himself? Pram I can do (except it's 38 degrees outside at the moment) and usually does take a lot later nap in the pram. how late and how long is too much if I can't get him down at 1 out and about? I don't have a car so can't do that everyday unless DH is home.
Thanks so much - you're all so amazing!!
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quick one - today was really odd. I decided to try a nap on the lounge today and told H he could play quietly with his cars and that when he was tired he should come and get me and we can lie down together (was planning to go back to him just before 1 to keep our usual time). He came and found me about 10mins later and said he was tired and wanted to go to bed! He only wanted to sleep in his bed but we had absolutely no battles and he went to seep perfectly after PD at 12.50. However, he woke after about 40mins and lay quietly until 2 when his gro clock went off. He's NEVER done anything like that before so I was shocked but we did have an early start of chatting before 6.30.
the rest of the day he was pretty feral and he had a crazy tantrum after I removed him prematurely from the bath as a disciplinary move (was standing on the side and trying to belly flop in :o ). He then got dressed and curled up into bed and I left the room at 7 having had no milk, books or brushed teeth. 20 minutes later he comes out asking for milk and declaring it wasn't bedtime so we whizzed through that and was back in bed by 7.30. Despite getting out and being returned to bed a couple of times he was asleep by 8pm.
Just not sure where to take our naps and bedtime? Should I have had him in bed at 7 after that small nap? I got the feeling I should have but I'm feeling quite clueless without a plan and a method of nap and duration.
What would you amazing ladies suggest?
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Wow! I do find that with some things when I have been battling with E for a while over something, if I give her the power to decide and go with her decision, she behaves better. So perhaps it is time to see if giving control of when and how he sleeps (within reason) might be a way forward for you.
Personally I think at this age an hour at BT won't make that much difference but I guess you'll need to see how he is in the morning. Fingers crossed for you x
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Hmmm, we're hitting massive tantrums which are just so extreme I can't help but determine he's OT.
I tried letting him have some control over the nap again and it just ended in tears.
We're only getting 10-10.5hrs at night and 45-60mins for nap. He had 5mins in car at 1.20 and it took me an hour to get him back down (I had to lie down with him) so 2.20 and I woke him at 3. Wouldn't go to bed until 8 (asleep 8.30) but I had to sit outside his room out of sight as he kept getting out.
When he's awake he cries a lot and tantrums over very small things. I've followed a lot of the behaviour forums and it's just something I can't shake. He also gets extremely overexcited and is a complete maniac from dinner onwards and he won't calm down - it often ends in horrific tantrums that require major intervention for "time in" from me and by then we might be 1/2hr-hr away from bedtime but he's exhausted.
So confused but his behaviour is pretty feral so I jusf feel he should be getting some more sleep but I have no idea how to get that?
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Ok, so today my toddler decided to tantrum for 45mins...straight. It was absolutely terrible and nothing would calm him. It happened when out and he cried the whole way home (in my arms) then continued for another 20mins. I tried to put him straight to bed with his comforters to try and calm him down but he just kept crying so mum got him up and gave him a sandwich. I wasn't up for fighting nap time so I told him to tell me when he was tired and ready for bed. Got him down finally by about 1.40 (asleep 1.50) and I had to wake him at 4! Needless to say it's 8pm and he's still awake. I'm aiming to have him in bed by 8.30 but who knows, will see what happens.
He's CONSTANTLY hungry saying "Harry still hungry" every 5 seconds. I feed him and he just gobbles so that could be part of it.
It's been a really bad day, I'm sorry I'm venting. I just want him to be happy :(
ETA: in bed at 8.50 but hopped out 3 times before finally staying put by 9
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Hugs, it does sound like he's got OT. It is inevitable as part of the nap dropping process but it isn't pretty and tantrums can be pretty intense for some LOs :(.
I'm sorry, I'm following a few threads at the moment and have forgotten where you were up to. Are you following a set time for nap attempt and BT, and what length were you planning to cap to?
Just my experience, but those long naps always backfired here. I would personally do what you can to avoid them and offer a short nap and early bedtime instead. I know it's hard when LO is exhausted but you want him to catch up with night sleep, not naptime x
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It doesn't seem to make any difference what I do in the day time, his nights do not change so I think that's what is making him so upset.
We had been sticking to a nap at 1-2 capped (any range of sleep in there from 30/40/45/50 mins) with BT at 7. He began to take ages to settle at 7 so I moved it to 7.30 upon advice from here that he was UT but not sure if that was the right thing to do now that he's miserable. It's hard to gauge when he wakes up but it's usually 6/6.30 and lays quietly with his gro clock until 7 but it can also be around the 5/5.30 mark too.
I know it's better for him to have restorative night sleep but he just doesn't tack it on. Plus, after yesterday's episode I didn't personally have the strength and the mental capacity to wake him up :(
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The thing to remember is that OT can build up as a result of UT.
I still think it sounds like you were getting better sleep with later shorter naps while you were away on holiday, is it worth giving this a try again?
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Thanks everyone.
I tried shorter later naps but I just can't get him down and then it's too late in the afternoon. I don't have a car and that's the only place he'll do a short nap. The pram is hard also and if we do a wind down at home then I can't get him to hop in pram and head outside (it's also far too hot).
I tried a nap at a friend's house on the lounge thinking he'd do his usual 40mins but he kept sleeping so woke him up.
I just can't work out where and, how long for the nap and what BT...sounds like I'm making excuses but I am genuinely confused.
Thanks for the ongoing support, I really appreciate it.
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Today we did 1-2 in bed (he said he was tired?) but come bedtime at 7 he was fighting me tooth and nail! screaming "no bed" and wouldn't get in, despite yawning continuously from 6.30 whilst we were reading. Got out so may times, screaming and crying then finally after I threatened to close the door if he hopped out again, he got in and lay still on the provision that I was sitting in a specific chair outside the door. Has lay quietly for 40mins so far...
I really do give up. I feel like I'm going around in circles and every decision I make is wrong. I'm tired of fighting this much with a 2yo - it's ridiculous. He is incredibly defiant and no amount or various kinds of discipline are working. I'm at the end of my rope.
Thanks again for listening. xxx
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Was he asleep from 1-2? Sounds ut at bedtime (or at least that is what happens here with ut!). I think for your sanity it might be best just to set naps & bed time and let the chips fall where they may for a bit. The consistency might actually help you both.
As for the defiance, that can be par for the course for a lot of toddlers as they try to assert some independence and control. I would try to set him up for success as much as possible by anticipating what might cause issues in advance. At this age redirection and distraction were the only way if I couldn't prevent something in the first place. They may understand "no" or other things but they lack impulse control to follow through and stop themselves.
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So we did 1-2 again yesterday and today aiming to be as consistent as possible.
WU: chatting from 6, OOB at 7 w/ gro clock
Nap: 1-2 woken, takes about 10-15mins to fall asleep
BT: 7.30. Not asleep until 8.15
WU: 6ish, OOB st 7 w/ gro clock
Nap: 1-2 woken, 10mins to fall asleep
BT: 7.45. Screamed "no bed time, no bedtime" and didn't want to get into bed but I thought he was quite tired but took until 8.20 to fall asleep.
Does this sound ok? It doesn't seem enough rest and he is quite miserable.
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Forgive me if I'm going over old ground Hun, I'm following a lot of similar threads at the moment.
Would he take an earlier nap, as early as possible ??? If so he would be easier to wake, and could fall asleep at BT a lot faster, shortening his day. Worked for us and has worked for others. I think I remember that he has always needed a long am A time in the past, but IME when the 1-0 hits it's not always relevant, anything goes and you never know what will work.
x.
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I could most definitely try but not sure how that would work timings wise? Still an hour nap or longer.
Does an earlier nap correlate to an earlier morning? It always has seemed to here strangely...
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could most definitely try but not sure how that would work timings wise? Still an hour nap or longer.
Yes, same length nap Hun.
Does an earlier nap correlate to an earlier morning? It always has seemed to here strangely...
Something I have been looking into WRT older LO's and the 1-0. It appears to me so far that and early nap and EW don't necessarily relate once a LO reaches this age, but I'd be interested to see if the other ladies agree ???
If he is waking at 6 consistently, then you could try this:
WU 6.00
Nap 11 to 12
BT 7.00 (see what time he goes to sleep)
Looking at his schedule the last couple of days he is falling asleep around 6hrs 15 after his nap. IF he will nap sooner, a 7 pm BT gives you 7 hours from nap already, meaning he should in theory fall asleep much faster. Also the sooner nap will help him deal with the afternoon length hopefully, as it is more restorative. You could even try winding him down at 6.30. I guess if it worked that WU would shift later and you might be looking at the above routine but with a 1 hour later shift.
Does that make sense ??? It's just often better to try shifting the nap rather than shortening it as a first port of call, because during this transition a longer night doesn't always follow a shorter nap, it just helps the LO go to sleep better.
x.
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We do pretty similar to what Vicky suggests just an hour ahead...
7 am wake up
1 pm nap (45-60 min)
8 pm bedtime
The only thing here that reinforces an ew is if I let the nap go too long. Right now it is all out the window due to sickness, but that has been our routine for ages (give or take - she will now answer yes or no and go off to her room when asked if she is tired and ready for night night so we follow her lead).
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she will now answer yes or no and go off to her room when asked if she is tired and ready for night night so we follow her lead).
Clever girl :) x.
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Hi ladies!!
Thank you. Today H came into my room at 5.45 asking to do a wee. Put him back to bed straight after but not sure if he went back to sleep. Hopped out at 7 as per gro clock.
Sadly, there is no way I will get him down for a nap at 11. I can see how he's tracking closer to midday and try a nap then?! Is there anything else that will help him sleep later in the morning and be well rested through the day?
Much appreciated.
Laura
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Hun is it that you won't have chance to get him down at 11 ??? Or that you don't think he will go? Honestly if it's the latter, I would just give it a shot. I never thought an early nap would work with my DD but in the 1-0 she would sometimes nap at nursery at 11.30am from a 6.30/7am WU if she was tired enough. I don't think she'd have done it every day but I was never brave enough to try it :P. But what's the worst that can happen? You try, he doesn't go, you get him up, give him lunch and try again after :)
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Oh and my other thought would be pull bt a touch earlier with that 1h nap x
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Ok, so I spent 2hrs getting him down for a nap today. He positively refused to even go near his room until usual 1pm.
BT was 7.40 as we were out but was not at all interested in sleep in the car home. Was a bit sluggish getting into bed and hopped out a couple of times but was asleep about 8.05 (about 25mins).
So confusing.
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Ok, so I spent 2hrs getting him down for a nap today. He positively refused to even go near his room until usual 1pm.
Oooh the little tinker, he rained all over my parade there! ;) ::)
Well done for giving it a try Hun ::) At least now you know. I'll give it some more thought.x.
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Hi!! It's me again...
So, H is basically miserable all the time. I can't seem to make him happy and he most certainly isn't interested in occupying himself with the millions of toys he has. He just mopes around saying he's "still hungry" every 30 minutes. The tantrums and whinging and crying has reached an extremely high level. I'm struggling with waking after an hour as he yells at me "mummy go away, I want to go to sleep".
Today was a new one too. In between crying and whinging he took himself to bed for a "rest" about 10 times. I found him with his comforters in bed, on my bed, on the floor - sucking his finger and resting. After a nap he's craxy and we have lots of meltdowns (tonight he though his whole dinner in the bin without touching it!!) and then just goes crazy hyperactive - he's like a windup toy screaming and carrying on.
Wakeups are all over the shot from before 6am to close to 7am but the later sleep-ins are usually the result of very restless nights with lots of call outs.
EASY at the moment looks like;
WU: ??
Nap: 1-2 capped. Takes up to 15mins to fall asleep and Can take me 20mins to get him up.
BT: 7.30 but never asleep before 8 (usually 8.10/8.15).
Bedtime and nap is a lot better resistance wise (pretty sure he was boundry pushing after our holiday). We're also facing some toilet training issues which aren't being helped my his behaviour, mood and what appears as exhaustion.
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Funnily enough; it's 7.17 and he's still asleep - first time in his entire life!!
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Do you think he's coming down with something? Or any instinct saying it might be worth getting him checked by doc? Bad mood plus fatigue sounds like he's ill. Wanting to eat all the time is (sometimes) totally normal, my two yo grazes her way through the whole morning sometimes. I think I'd want to discuss it with a medic if it seemed very closely linked to mood.
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I think yesterday was a reaction to yoghurt. He has pretty bad food intolerances and yoghurt particularly seems to wreak havoc with his mood and behaviour.
with the sleep in today we've missed a nap! NO idea what time to put him down tonight!!
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Interesting day...he was fabulous. Only hopped out of bed at 7.30 (was dozing for a little while but was asleep at 7.15 which is unheard of). I tried a nap at 1.20 but he kept hopping out and then closed his own door and had some quiet time until I went in to check at 2 and he was wide awake. Jumped up and tried to change the moon to sun on his gro clock so I figured I should get him up. We watched a movie and had a nice arvo.
Bedtime, I pulled it forward 30mins and put down at 7. He was asleep in 20mins which again is unheard of.
i hope he doesn't wake early tomorrow wih the earlier bedtime and no-nap. Is this likely? Is this something I should encourage so he's getting more sleep overall or should I play it by ear?
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Really depends...with his mood and a fab NND I wonder if the more restorative night helped (and the quiet time even if he didn't sleep). I would play it by ear and offer a nap but if he just takes quiet time then perhaps that is all he needs now.
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Thanks so much for the support! I didn't hear him but my sister did and said he was calling out for me a few times before midnight. I also found his door was closed this morning which he must have got up and closed and gone back to bed. Was awake this morning though when I went in at 7 and given his mood I think he woke much earlier.
Will offer his nap at 1 and see what happens.
Thanks very much.
X
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So H did fall asleep about 10mins after pd at 1pm today but has been so incredibly miserable all afternoon. I'm finding that unless he watches TV from wakeup until dinner, he's a whinging, tantrumming, screaming nightmare. Is there anything I can do about that because 3.5hrs of TV each afternoon is not something I'd like to continue...
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Can you get out? I always found DDs mood was much better if I dragged us both out to the park or somewhere like that x
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Yes, getting out works here too, or just playing music instead of tv.
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I don't drive so it makes things really difficult unfortunately. Will try and get him out of the house but usually he's so grumpy and upset he doesn't want to go anywhere or will try and go back to bed to go to sleep. Might try some other sensory activities today.
Last night we had a crying night waking around 2am which lasted a few minutes. Was about to go in to him but he settled. Just a little worried he's not getting enough sleep :(
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I appreciate that driving might make it difficult to go out somewhere a way away (& I don't know what kind of location you are in) but can you just head out in the garden (perhaps build a den with sheets and chairs to shelter from sun if needed and take some toys out or do water play under the canopy) or if it's not too hot now, go for a nature walk (if you're in the country).
We try and get out and walk every day with E, the exercise and the fresh air makes a huge difference to her mood, even just a walk to a place 5 minutes away makes a difference - a change is as good as a rested all that! :)
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Thank you so much for everyone's help, I've been implementing as much as I can but seem to be in sme crazy mess that I just can't get out of.
Wakeups are early and now he's crying and screaming from before 6am (although not every day). He's miserable most of the day and is having a nap from 1-2 capped. He goes and takes himself to bed for 'rests' or sleeps all day too. Gets his comforters, climbs in and I think he's happily playing but he tells me he's sleeping and to go away. Waking him takes me well over an hour to make him happy again. He's also super restless and crying and upset several times before midnight.
The other day we had a NND due to a family function and by 4.30 I was rocking and holding an uncontrollable 28mo who couldn't talk, walk, and actually went pale as his eyes hung out of his head. Wasn't a very fun afternoon but proof that he's desperate for more sleep. That night, after a 6.30pm BT he had a few crying NW as a result of OT and woke early - rolling around from about 5.30 then chatting from 6/6.30 miserable and throwing tantrums all day.
I've just found out I'm pregnant too (about 6 weeks) so I feel like I'm being run over by a train repeatedly and I'm desperate to help my little boy get the sleep he obviously needs. I thought of letting him have a bit longer in the day since it doesn't seem to have helped at all capping it. He still takes 30-40mins at night to quietly go to sleep (regardless of PD) and still wakes early. I'll to be mindful of BT but perhaps 7.30 (5hrs A) would be enough?