BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Hayleys on December 28, 2014, 13:47:31 pm
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Hi
If anyone sees this post today and is able to offer some advice then I'd really appreciate it! My DD will be turning 2.5 in the next few weeks Roughly 3 months ago she began to not fall asleep in her cot for her nap and instead she could not settle. I then started to take her out in the car to AP her nap and she would be asleep within 10 mins and I could transfer her to the cot. Initially making the nap a bit later and then capping it at 45 mins but after a few days she was not coping with this so I changed it to an earlier nap and capped it at 1 hr 15 mins. This has been working very well for us. We have been having shorter nights of usually 10 hrs or perhaps 10 hrs 30 mins but her mood has been fine and what we have been doing seems to have been working well.
However, the last few weeks have been tricker and she has been getting teary when being in the car and it has become difficult to AP her to sleep. She has still been falling asleep in 10 mins though and sometimes at bedtime she has been falling asleep within an hr but at other times it has taken her 2 hrs to fall asleep (although the later is quite rare). Today I tried to get her ready to go out in the car or pushchair for her nap and she was absolutely hysterical. So instead I decided to put her in her cot with some books for quiet time so we could just see what happened. My husband has been with her for most of the morning and he has said how tired she has seemed so it's not as if she is suddenly wide awake.
So her current EASY looks something like this:
WU 7 - 7:30
S 1:15 - 2:30 (capped)
BT 8 pm (the time she falls asleep can vary greatly though, but usually if she falls asleep later then she will wake later, has not been night waking at all)
I feel at a lose of what to do today. She has been in her cot for 40 mins now and doesn't seem to be settling. I'm thinking if she does fall asleep then to give her a very short nap of perhaps 30 mins? If she doesn't sleep then to give her an early bedtime but wondering what time I should do that for? In the past she has not been great at tacking on sleep so I feel that I don't want to let her sleep too early as I fear that she will wake up very early. I'm also very worried about her waking in the night due to OT. Do you think this is the start of the 1-0, any ideas and thoughts very much appreciated!
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Hi
Just to update, she fell asleep at 2:30 pm in her cot. I'm going to let her have a 45 min nap and keep bedtime for 8 pm. I'll see what happens but perhaps a later nap times a a shorter nap is now the way to go? A few months a go when I tried a 45 min nap she did well for a few days but then got ver tired and had a big meltdown which is why I increased it. Maybe she is ready for this now though?
Any general advice or thoughts on what is happening still very much appreciated! x
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There is a regression around 2.5 years and if this were a recent thing it could be just a blip, but I think as it's been going on a while and you've only been able to maintain the nap using AP, I do think this is the 1-0.
Have you read this link?
8 month old bottle refusal on Tracey's program - 12 hours into hunger strike PLEASE HELP!
I found the info really helpful. You could continue to move nap later until she'll take it without AP, and cap it, perhaps to 45/30 mins, or you could do as you did today and offer her quiet time/nap. If she naps you can do last Bt and an EBT if she doesn't have a nap.
You may find you need to move BT a little later if she doesn't settle easily after a nap.
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I do think this is the 1-0.
Hi Honey,
Just popping on with extra (HUGS) and to say I agree with the above, it is somewhat classic 1-0.
Wanted also to add this, which I think you will find very helpful:
The 1-0 transition...Advice and Tips to help you through.
x.
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Thanks Vicki, that was the link I was supposed to post :)
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Thanks Vicki, that was the link I was supposed to post
LOL, having put it together myself during the shock of the 1-0 transition, I use it a lot! I thought DS would just stop napping and sleep longer at night :) That really was my plan, but he didn't get the memo apparently ;)
x.
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Thank you very much for your responses ladies. It so nice to have your support and advice. So this is how her day looked yesterday:
WU 7:30 am
S 2:30 – 3:15 (capped but extremely hard to wake and was in a deep sleep)
BT 8pm (However did not fall asleep until 10:15 pm)
WU 7:30 am
So as you can see it did take her a long time to fall asleep at bedtime despite seeming tired. She did sleep all night though and happily woke at 7:30 am.
My husband has been with her today and he said that despite the very short night sleep, she has not seemed extremely tired this morning. He put her in her cot for quiet time (she is very receptive to this as it is new and exciting and she fell asleep at 1:20 pm today). We decided to cap her sleep at an hr today to try to help with any OT build up and still hopefully have a better time for her to fall asleep at BT. We’ll see how that goes later. I think that if she had had more night sleep though she would not have fallen asleep for her nap this early and she only did this due to the short night.
I have found that she needs quite a long A time before BT and we usually don’t let her sleep past 2:30 pm. So I wonder if the later nap yesterday, despite it being shorter than usual, perhaps still did not leave enough A time before BT so hence the difficulty in falling asleep.
What do you think is the best way forward from here? It was hard to wake her after 45 mins into her nap yesterday but do you think I should start to try a 20 – 30 min nap if she falls asleep in her cot later than usual and see if this helps with her settling at bedtime. If for some reason she does not fall asleep for her nap then perhaps I should go for EBT, but what time would that be? I’m so nervous about that though as she has always not been good at tacking on sleep in the past. At the most she has done an 11 hr night and that is very occasional. Any other ideas, really appreciated!
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Hmmm, tricky as always. It sounds to me like she is going to be a LO who still needs the nap for a while and a shorter night, but I'm guessing 10.15 falling asleep time is not going to work for you :-\.
I think IIWM, I would be tempted to try keeping the nap at the same A time, so a long morning. But start cutting it back 15 mins at a time, so stick with the hour for a few days and see how she does before tweaking any more. I would also keep the afternoon long enough to hopefully achieve a decent BT without lying awake for any length of time...maybe something like this:
WU 7.30
Nap 2 til 3 capped
BT 8.30 (you could get her into bed by 8 for stories etc in the hope of winding down better.
If her WU is earlier usually, say 7 am then just shift everything forward by 30 mins. My thinking is this: Keeping the morning long may help ensure she takes the nap. Hopefully long morning will over ride shorter afternoon. Not enforcing BT too early in the hope of a quicker settling time. Of course if this were to work then she would be clocking up 12 hours sleep over the 24 hours, would this be enough to keep her going ??? Is he high/average or low sleep needs do you think ??? The trick is to figure out what will help her get the most sleep in 24 hours, that's the goal.
What do you think Hun ??? Please be honest, you know her best ;)
x.
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Hi
Thank you for your help! Yes 12 hrs of sleep in a 24 hr period is definitely enough for her and this is roughly what she has been having up until now, sometimes a little less even. So the last few days have gone like this:
WU 7:30
S 1:20 - 2:20 (was very hard to wake so actually did not fully wake until 2:30 pm)
BT 8 pm (did not fall asleep until 10 pm)
WU 7:30
S 1:20 - 2:20
BT 8:30 (did not fall asleep until 9:55 pm)
WU 7:30 am
So this is where we are right now. This is the third night she has only has 9 hrs 30 mins night, but is still sleeping through the night. She actually is in a great mood but this may not last if this continues for much longer. I've been looking back on my post from 3 months ago when all of this started and at one point I started to cap her nap at 45 mins. This allowed for her to fall asleep quicker at BT but after a few days, despite being very surprised at how well she was handling the shorter nap for about 4 days, she then had a massive OT meltdown. So this is when I started to AP her nap in the car and cap it at 1 hr 15 mins. This has meant that BT has varied a lot for the last 3 months, but on average it was usually taking her an hr to fall asleep, sometimes more and sometimes a little less.
I do agree though she is absolutely a lo who seems to like to hold on to the nap even if this means a shorter night. In your post you mentioned a 2 pm nap time so as you can see her nap has been earlier just because she has been ready for it. Would a later nap time make a difference? I'm guessing not as she also seems to need a length A time before bed. Any ideas on how to move forward? I know you mentioned perhaps capping the nap further by 15 mins after a few days. Do you think we're ready to do that? She is in a deep sleep at nap time and very reluctant to wake. Also although this was just a one off and perhaps not really a true reflection on how things could be, the other day I capped her nap at 45 mins when her nap was from 2:30 -3:15 (so later) and this is when she fell asleep at 10:15 pm.
With regard to having longer days with a later BT then that's fine for now. I'd prefer it over having OT night wakes!! Thanks again for your help xxx
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Hey there, we had an LO who needed to keep a longer nap and then have a late Bt and shorter night. I think at the end we were doing 2/2.30 nap for up to 2 hours and then Bt was 10/0.30ish. After a week the short nights did lead to OT and at that point we were able to start cutting the nap completely on some days, bringing BT right back to 7 on those NNDs.
So I agree that if it's working for you now then no need to change it yet, but if Ot starts to creep in then you may need to do something to lengthen those nights again.
HTH xx
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I agree :) However will say, it does seem with the 1-0 that what is working doesn't last for a great amount of time usually, so check in with us if this is the case :-* :-X
x.
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^^^absolutely xxx
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Hi
Things are not going well now. This was her EASY for the last two days
WU 7:30
S 1:15 - 2:30
BT 9:00 (didn't fall asleep until 10 pm, had some resistance to going to bed as well despite seeming tired)
WU 8:10
S 1:45- 2:45
BT 9:00 but was not asleep until 11:45 and had a lot of BT resistence.
So the resistance ended up with her having a massive meltdown. She was hysterical about going to bed, it was awful as she has never been like that before at BT. Usually she will go into bed without a problem . After trying a few different things I started to do WI/WO and it was horrid. She was beside herself with tears. I was really taken aback as to her reaction and I haven't done WIWO for so long I felt that I wasn't sure if I was doing it right. I actually then took heron the car as we were both getting so upset and I didn't know what else to do - ugh!!! She feel asleep quite quickly at 11:15 pm - yikes!!! She slept all night and I am beginning to hear her now at 8:10 am and she sounds very grumpy and I suspect still tired.
I really don't know what to do today. Do I try a very short nap of 20 mins or a NND? I also suspect to iChat at BT will be tricky and I worry about having to do WI/WO and feel I have lost my confidence. She was so upset last night, I'm dreading having to do that again. Any help for today is greatly appreciated!!
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Last nights BT was 11:15 not 11:45.
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Hello Honey,
I'm sorry I opened my big mouth! ::) :-X This is typical, things just keep changing all the time with the 1-0 >:(. I would shoot for a nap of 45 mins max now.
Unfortunately I think it is unlikely that you are going to be able to achieve much consistency over these coming weeks, but let's keep our finger's crossed, it may be that you get into the swing of what is best to do going from the previous day and night. Have you tried a later nap to see if long morning over rides shorter afternoon ???
How about trying this today:
WU 8.10
Nap 2 to 2.45
BT as soon as you can achieve.
In all honesty this is going to be trial an error Honey :( I would say that obviously as you will be watching her, you might need to roll with the punches, for eg: if she is melting down by 12.30 you may have to let her sleep, but maybe the earlier the nap the shorter it should be. I did do late cat naps for DS during the 1-0 on some days, and once I actually managed to wake him, he dealt with it quite well, I gave him 20 minutes, but only ever in the car, because a 20 min nap in the cot was something I didn't feel he would deal with well. Is there something you can do which she loves upon waking her from her nap for eg 'movie time' or a favourite treat ;) needs must!
What do you think, how is she and what does your gut tell you is best for today ???
lots of (HUGS)
x.
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Hi
Thank you so much for your response! Guess it was inevitably going to go wonky. We haven't tried a later nap, although yesterday she took an hr to fall asleep at nap time and naturally napped later. I'll definitely try the later nap today. My gut response is that I'm thinking that 45 mins may be too long and we'll be in a similar situation as last night. The other day when she had a 45 min nap we still had BT problems. Do you think a shorter nap is an option right now or do you feel it's best to take a more gradual approach?
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My gut response is that I'm thinking that 45 mins may be too long and we'll be in a similar situation as last night.
I agree TBH Hun, I'm just wary of encouraging you to move too fast, but IIWM I would be doing 30 mins straight off, because I found myself unable to tweak gently, it just drives me insane, and I have found more drastic measures to give clearer conclusions. So in short, your call ;)
Sorry, if that's no help ::)
x.
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No that does help a lot. I'll have a think about it and see how she seems this morning! x
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Hi
Things have got worse really. I decided to try to get her to have a 30 min nap. I thought the best way would be in the car or pushchair but she wasn't receptive to that so instead decided to try her to have quiet time upstairs which has worked well for the previous days. However when I tried to put her gro bag on she began saying that she didn't want it. This is exactly what happened last night. She then waked up the stairs but would not let me pick her up to put her in her cot bed (we still have the sides up). Again the same problem as last night. We can usually put her gro bag on downstairs and carry her up to bed but she now wants to walk up this is fine but she won't in the bed. This is greatly adding to the problem so my DH and I were wondering if it may be time to take the cotsides down and put a stair gate at her door. We were thinking that she may be more responsive to getting into her big bed. My only worry is perhaps this is not a good time to make any changes. Any thought on this?
So at the moment we are back downstairs as she is not wanting to get in her bed or go out so not sure what is going to happen with her nap today. Feeling very nervous about it!!!
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Bloomin' internet has been in and out all day, tried to reply 5 times and lost post every time, sorry :(
I would have shot for a cat nap, but may be too late now, let me know what you did ???
If no cat nap shoot for an early night, do you think ???
Hope the day improves Sweetie.
Oh and I wouldn't change the cot sides, i don't think it is relevant TBH, this is a sleep issue and I would be worried she would start getting up and down, which wouldn't help.
(HUGS)
x.
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Thank you for trying so much to help me - that's really sweet of you!
I did manage to get a cat nap in the car for 30 mins from 3-3:30. She woke fine when I put her on the floor in front if the TV. It was actually a lot easier than waking her in the cot! To be honest she has been managing really well so far, but let see how it goes.
So thinking about your comment as seeing this as a sleep issue. Do you think I should I insist that she wears her gro bag and then do WI/WO until she sleeps? I feel that BT is going to be a struggle with her either wearing it or not to be honest as I just can't think of any other way to get her in the bed. I've been wracking my brains all day to look for other options but she already has some soft toys and a book in there. Yesterday when I tried to introduce something new to intice her into the cot she still would not go in.
Ugh!! Dreading BT!!
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Internet down, on my phone so this will be concise Hun, for now :(. Gro bag 'don, in cot as always, I'd maybe try GW sitting by the door maybe? See if that helps, just sticking to one sleepy phrase. Happy you managed the cat nap, I'd be tempted to do it again.x.
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Hi
Thank you so much for your help, I felt really stressed yesterday!
So after the 30 min cap nap she was fine in mood, did seem a little tired but not anything major. We got invited over to my parent's house and as my head was unclear as to tackle bedtime we decided to let us have some thinking time and allow her to just fall asleep in the car and transfer her. Glad I did this as she then slept all night and I woke feeling more refreshed and positive about everything. It also enabled me to get a rough idea as to what time she would fall asleep after a 30 min nap. This was her EASY for yesterday:
WU: 8:10
S 3-3:30 (in car)
BT: 9:40 (fell asleep in the car)
WU 8 pm
S 2-2:30 (in car)
So this morning I went to a relative house and let her fall asleep in the car on the way home. This worked really well as she was receptive to getting in the car and again she woke easily when I sat her in front of the TV. At the moment being at home for naps is just exhausting as she is adamant that she wants to go upstairs but won't then get into her bed and if I try to take her out then she is hysterical too. So I think I'm going to try to plan morning trips out for next week so she can cat nap in the car on the way home. Fingers crossed it will still work and enable me to have some control over what times he naps as yesterday with all the dramas it just ended up being too late really.
If possible, I also really want to try to get bedtime back to 8 pm as apart from yesterday it has been so late and has pushed her WU time to 8 am, which will be hard to maintain on a Thursday when my sister has her as she needs to taker her in the school run at 8:30 am. Anyway it's not a priority as such but just something which I am aware which may prove to be tricky if she continues to WU at this time.
The main thing which I want to tackle now is bedtime. I've noticed a change in her in recent weeks where she is wanting to have more independence. I think this is partly where the grobag has become an issue as she wants to walk up the stairs instead of me carrying her up in the grobag. I feel that I would like to support her independence and allow her to do this as after all she is 2.5 and I'm not going to always be carrying her up the stairs so the issue will come up again at some point anyway. The thing is I'm not sure yet what to do. I have tried letting her walk up but she then refuses her gro bag and also refuses to get into the cot with or without it. Choices often work well with her so perhaps I could try offering her a way to get into her cot or if not then I will have to out her in and deal with the aftermath which will follow by using GW as you suggested. I think perhaps in time she will learn that she has to get in and will be mire receptive to wanting to accept any choice which is offered. I think at the moment she will refuse any choice offered. So what I'm struggling with is whether to let her climb the stairs and then put the grobag on in her room, let her climb the stairs and just put the grobag on in her sleep or insist that she has the grobag on downstairs and carry her up as we usually do. She is so fixed on nit wanting her grobag on. The first thing in the morning this is what she says and even the other night when i transfered her from the car and what putting it on as she was asleep, she stirred and asked me to take it off. So it is a big deal for her and will having it on will be very difficult and probably make GW even harder. Any thoughts on this?
Also what BT would you aim for tonight? She would usually have a 13 hr day so is 8 pm unrealistic? I don't want to put her down too early as I suspect that she will be quite upset.
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http://gro.co.uk/grobag-nursery-stay-on-bedding
I'll be back with more when DS in is in bed Hun, but wanted to show you this, from the wonderful gro company in case it could be the answer to saying goodbye to the gro bag.x.
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Oh thank you for this!!!
I'm in the midst of the bedtime routine too so only just been able to have a brief look. All of the pictures seem to show the duvets in beds without the sides down. Can they still be used with the sides up?
My DH and I were just talking over dinner about still taking the for sides down and perhaps putting one of those attachable boards on the side so she still has a certan amount of security. She will definitely still get out of the bed for sure. To be honest knowing her personality, I do feel that this is something which she will do whenever we do it. I think my only big concern about thinking of the big bed option is her needing to learn to use a duvet and getting cold in the night and waking up but perhaps this would help with that as I saw it mentioned about poppers.
I do feel that she is strongly telling me that she does not want the gro bag anymore so we definitely need to review this. xx
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The bedding has a special sheet to which the pillow is attached and the duvet set zips up the side to stop LO from falling out and to prevnt the bedding from being kicked off, so you could take the sides down and simultaneously stop the gro bag and switch to the gro bedding, making a big deal about her being a big girl now :) Could work as it sounds as though she is feeling like a grown up girl, wanting to walk upstairs and be out of the bag :)
WRT her routine, I think if you try for the cat nap every day, and start with 30 mins, possibly dropping to 20 mins in the near future that a 12 hour day could be achievable. I think you would need to decide on a late cat nap and stick with it for a few days if you can, then see where you're at. At the moment each day has been different with varied amounts of sleep, so I think it will take a little time to know whether she can have the cat nap and an 8 o clock BT YK ???
Typically the amount of sleep a LO is able to achieve drops unavoidably during the 1-0 process, but it may be this plan could help her the most.
BTW I also couldn't stand to do cat naps in the house and DS did the same WRT to cot refusal so went this route also for a while ::) ;). I did the cat nap from 3 to 3.20/30 and WU time in the morning varied.
What do you think ???
x.
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Great - thank you!! Going to have a think about the bedding and perhaps putting the sides down. I do think that perhaps it may be a better thing to do once we have solidly settled into no naps and are back on track but then again it also does make sense to do it now also. So you can use the bedding and still have the cot sides up, then? Do you think that generally the change to being in a big bed can cause night wakes or anything else for that matter?
So I have just finished putting her down in her cot tonight and it went much better than I expected!!! I let her walk up the stairs (completely ditched the gro bag and put in on once she was asleep), devised a new little routine of some stories before getting her in bed. She took to this really well and I clearly explained to her everything we were going to do before we did it which also helped a lot, I think. I also used her toddler chair as a little step by the cot and gave her the option to either use it to help her climb in the bed or I would pick her up and put her in. She loved the first option and got in no problem. She did then start to get upset but it was more murmer cries than fall on screams like the other night. I sat by the door so she could see me and felt that I did not need to intervene much really. It did take her 50 mins to fall asleep but hopefully as long as her routine still suites her then this will be less time tomorrow as she was protesting a lot.
So this is what her routine looked like today:
WU 8 am
S 2-2-30
BT 8:20 (was a bit later with the new routine but she did not fall asleep until 9:10)
In your last post you mentioned about making sure that there was a long A time in the morning. If she wakes at 8, is 6 hrs enough until 2? And are you saying I could do 12 hr days?
Can't thank you enough for your support - you've been a star and it's greatly appreciated!!! x
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Ah well done on the new BT routine, it sounds like she really went for it :) DS loves to have everything explained to him in great detail always has so we talk everything to the ends of the earth! lol :)
I don't know if the bedding is suitable for a cot with sides up, but I'm guessing not.
Yes Hun, I think the nap may need pushing out later in order to keep the day shorter. It looks as though she will take it at that time, but still need a 13 hour day. What about going for it at 3 ???
However, maybe you should stick with it for a few days and see what happens, may be too soon to switch it up for clear results.
It's my pleasure to try and help :-* you're most welcome Hun.x.
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Hi!
So I stuck to the 2 pm nap today and this is what her EASY looked like after a 10 and a half hr sleep (that's really good for her). She did cry out on two occasions between 2 and 4 am. This was in her sleep and I didn't need to go into her but just thought I 'd mention it as it is highly unusual nowadays and wondered if it could be a sign of OT.
WU 7:40
S 2:00 -2:30
BT 8:10 (there was no crying tonight but did not fall asleep until 10:55 pm!!!)
She was on great form all day and didn't seem greatly tired at all. I noticed that it did take longer for her to fall asleep in the car compared to yesterday, took 15 mins as opposed to 5. I could try pushing the nap later at some point and 3 pm would be fine except for the days when my sister has her on a Monday and Thursday as she needs to take her on the afternoon school run. The latest I think she could have her wake is 2:45 or possible 3 pm. Just wondering, what is the reason behind her perhaps needing a later nap? I've always felt that she does better with a longer A time before bed.
So as you can see it took her 2 hrs and 45 mins to fall asleep. Just wondering what you think I should do from here. It has been 3 days where she has been on 30 min naps. Do you think a change is needed? I suspect she may only have a 9hr sleep tonight, so perhaps I shouldn't change anything then and hope she will be more tired at BT? Or still cut to 20 mins? Any ideas? x
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Hi!
So at 1:30 am she started crying and I think shouting a little in her cot. I went in and she was still laying down and settled when I spoke to her and then was asleep. Do you think this could be OT?
She then slept solidly until 8:15 am. Really not sure what to do with the nap today . I looked back in her EASY from a few days a go on the first day when she had a 30 min nap and with a later nap time she did settle more quickly and had a 13.5 day. But as this was the first short nap day, I'm guessing this could have had something to do with it. My husband will be with her all day today so nap time can be whenever. If you see this post in time, any ideas?
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Support for dropping the nap part 12
I can't believe I forgot to give you this link, it was my life saver and many others, you will find great extra support there.
So yesterday I went trawling through my posts to review exactly what happened when DS dropped the nap, my that was quite a read!!! :o I knew it was hard but ::). The fact is I tried pretty much everything, when one things stopped working I moved on. What strikes me about DD right now is how little sleep she is getting with any nap, and I'm not sure she can continue this way Hun. I mean her night was only 9.15 hours, plus 30 mins gives less than 10 hours sleep :(. Sam was clocking up 10.5 hours generally so it is typical not to be able to get enough sleep into a LO.
I re-read how for a while I brought Sam's nap as early as possible and capped at 30 mins also. I had completely forgotten this. This worked because he needed at least 7 hours from his nap at this time to settle at BT. Could this be a possibility for DD if you headed out in the car ???
We also had horrific screaming and BT tantrums where S would refuse to get in his cot, I was even reading about how he threw himself over the baby gate head first!!! :o :'(
x.
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Hi
Oh bless him, hope he was ok and didn’t hurt himself too much, that must have been so stressful for you! Thank you for reviewing all of your posts and for the added link!
I’ve just spoken to DH on the phone and he said that so far she is holding up well this morning with the short night. We both thought your idea of an earlier 30 min nap with a 7 hr A time before bed sounds like a really good thing to try. So he is going to take her out in the car and aim for her to have a sleep between 12:30 and 1 pm. It’s hard to predict how long it will take her to fall asleep so fingers crossed it will happen around that time. We thought we could then aim for bedtime at 8 pm. This would mean she would have had a 7 hr A time before BT and also a 12 hr day. Do you think this sounds like a good plan?
x
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Do you think this sounds like a good plan?
Yes, great plan, I'm sure it sounds like I am changing things up on you all the time, but as I said before it really is a transition that is constantly moving, so it's the only thing to do.
I am keeping everything crossed that this is something that will work and stick for some time.x.
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Hi!
So my DH managed to get the cat nap in from 12.:30- 1 pm in the car. He said that she feel asleep within 10 mins and when he got her out if the car she woke up and asked to walk instead of being carried so she was not in a deep sleep.
Unfortunately the early nap did not make a difference to BT. She has been absolutely fine in mood all day though. A little tired but nothing major. Here was her EASY:
WU 8:15
S 12:30 - 1 pm (in car)
BT 8 pm (not asleep until 10:45)
I'm really nervous about how her night sleep will go now. I'll post back in the morning to update and hoot t get some idea about what to do tomorrow. I feel at a compete loss, is it time for a NND? Thanks so much for your input!! It makes such a difference to feel supported! x
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It might be time for some NNDs, but if you can manage it it's probably worth sticking with a shorter nap for a few days before changing anything again. At this age, it can take a while for changes to have an effect, time to give her body to get used to the earlier nap iyswim.
Just a thought, if you feel she's ready to try some NNDs then it might be worth following your instinct.
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Hi
Thanks! So she slept all night and woke at 7:40 am. I'm with her all day today so I can try a cat nap in the car again from 12:30 - 1 pm. I'm going to aim for a 8 pm bedtime again. x
x
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So my DH managed to get the cat nap in from 12.:30- 1 pm in the car. He said that she feel asleep within 10 mins and when he got her out if the car she woke up and asked to walk instead of being carried so she was not in a deep sleep.
This is one of the big bonus' that they wake easier and less cranky.
So you're looking at a 14.5 hour day even with an early nap (for yesterday at least) Gosh Hun, that's 9.5 hours sleep only, TBH I agree with Naomi, things could improve at night if she can adjust to an earlier nap, but I would say for sure she will melt down soon if she doesn't start to get more sleep on a daily basis.
Maybe give it a couple of days, then shoot for some no nap days next, see how it goes, what do you think ???
x.
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Hi!
Yes the wake up from the car rise is so much easier!! We went out to a friend's house this morning and I misjudged the time slightly of when to leave and how long it would take for her to fall asleep in the car. Basically it took her under 5 mins to fall asleep so nap time will be from 12:10 -12:40 so earlier than I was hoping for.
I completely agree that she will start having meltdowns soon if her night sleep doesn't lengthen and I'm really wanting to curb that before it sets in. Last night she was more tearful at bedtime than the day before which I wasn't expecting as I was thinking that the earlier nap would at least help her to be asleep before 9:30 pm. We'll just have to see how we get on tonight. Gosh I hate it when things goes so wonky like this, I'm so used to her sleeping well and being refreshed! Oh well guess it's just a process and we'll find our way in time! x
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Ah I know, it is a shocker when you've had lengthy periods of calm :( I wish I could say it will be over soon, but for us this was the longest transition. I think you sound like a very calm Mama ;) I envy you lol. I am sure you will be fine, just take it day by day. Make sure you join the 1-0 support thread if you haven't already, it really will help to be amongst parents of LO's in the same boat, with great advise and support.
I'm here too Hun :) x.
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Hi!
I'm sure I won't feel quite so calm when the night wakes and meltdowns start. I'm dreading that!! It's great to know that I have your support though.
So today she has been fine again in mood. I noticed that she didn't have the same concentration levels when she was playing though and she was twisting her hair a lot which is what she dies when she is tired. The lack of sleep is certainly affecting her!! Thankfully no tired meltdowns yet.
Bedtime went a little better competed to the other nights, but was still not great! She only mildly protested initially and then laid down for a good 10 mins or so. She looked like she was really trying to sleep but then she sat up and started playing in her cot. On previous nights she has just been constantly playing really and not laying down much at all. She still fell asleep at 9:50 pm though so that obviously is way too late, but an hour earlier than the last two nights!
This was her EASY
WU 7:40
S 12:10 - 12:40
BT 8 pm (asleep 9:50 pm)
Just a thought but, do you think the slightly earlier nap could have help? If so I think I could definitely get her to sleep earlier for that cat nap. Or thinking about it she did wake up earlier this morning than the two previous days so perhaps that played a part. Anyway, we'll see how the night goes!! x
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Hi Hun,
I would get S to take a nap as soon as he was willing. The only possible risk with that is that she starts to wake earlier because her nap feels like tacked on sleep, TBH I'm not sure if this is something that toddlers still do or whether it's more of a baby thing, I'll have to ask about that. However IIWM I would much rather deal with some early mornings to achieve a better BT, it depends on whether you're a morning person I guess ;) Worth a try IMHO.x.
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Hi
Thank you! She slept solidly until 7:45 this morning so she had a 10 hr night. Not great, but at least she had more than in previous days. So far she also seems to be happy in her mood.
Think I'll try a 12-12:30 nap then - thanks! xx
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That's better :) I hope the earlier nap could be starting to help Hun. Finger's crossed for today, but bear in mind because she's had more sleep last night she may refuse it any earlier than usual, hope not though! :-X ::).
x.
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Hi!
So I managed to get her to nap in the car from 11:55-12:25 pm which I was really pleased about then to top it off she fell asleep at 9 pm tonight!!! Here was her EASY for today:
WU 7:40
S 11:55 - 12:25
BT 8 pm (asleep at 9 pm)
I'm just hoping that she now sleeps all night and doesn't wake too early. If she does have a better night then she may not fall asleep for her nap as early as she did today so we'll just have to wait and see. My sister will look after her tomorrow while my DH and I are at work so I'll tell her to try the 12 pm car nap and see what happens.
We might be in a different place tomorrow but at the very least tonight I get to have a bit of an evening, yippee!!
Thanks! x
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Much better :) I think you have a handle on it Hun, and are getting to grips with what to expect. I hope she has a good night. Let me know how it goes, finger's crossed! x.
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Hi
So after my last post, she did sleep all night and woke at 7:30, so she had a 10 and a half hr night which was great. Yesterday when my sister had her the nap got messed up as when my sister was travelling somewhere she fell asleep in the car. This was at 11:10 am. It wouldn't have been too bad but she only slept for 15 mins as she woke coughing. Then on the way back she slept again from. 1:50-2 pm. This made bedtime extremely hard and she was in quite an OT mess, lots of tears and I even had to hug her until she fell asleep. This was her EASY yesterday
WU 7:30
S 11:10 - 11:25
S 1:50 - 2 pm
BT 8 pm (wasn't asleep until 10 pm)
She did then sleep all night and woke at 7:30 pm, but this meant that she had only had a total of 9.5 hr of night sleep.
So far she has been managing on this well today and I took her out in the car and she fell asleep at 11:40 so I'm going to wake her at 12:10. I'm hoping this will mean that BT will be better tonight and we can get back on track over the weekend to see if this earlier 30 min cat nap is going to make a difference consistently.
Anyway, let's hope tonight goes better!!
xx
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Ah it's hard and frustrating when you aren't responsible for keeping things on track yourself isn't it Hun :( Anyway onwards and upwards, there's is nothing you can do now, today's plan sounds good, keeping everything crossed for you.x.
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Hi
So the last two night has been a lot better in terms of her falling asleep more quickly. This has been her EASY:
WU 7:30
S 11:40-12:10
BT 8 pm (asleep by 8:30)
WU 7:10
S 12:00 - 12:30
BT 8 pm (fell asleep 8:45 pm)
WU 7:15
As you can see this is a lot better in terms of her having more night sleep. Her mood is fine in the day, although some cracks are beginning to appear but generally she is fine. She does look really tired though and I'm not surprised considering how sleep has been for the last few weeks. She will happily get into her cot but then she gets very distressed until she decides to lay down and fall asleep. Last night was terrible as she actually leaned over the cot and fell out!! This was very stressful and thankfully she is fine, but we are now going to have to take the cot sides down tonight as we can't risk that happening again.
What I have been doing is sitting by the door until she falls asleep. As the cot sides will be down tonight, I imagine that she will probably try to get out of the bed. Just want to try to make a plan to deal with this. Is it a case of just putting her back in the bed? We are also going to put a stair gate on her bedroom door. I used to be able to just leave the room and she would fall asleep without any problem so we are in a very new place now.
Also do you think she is crying more because she is OT and that is making things worse? She is waking up fine from the 30 min nap but was thinking that when we tried it at 45 min it was when it was later in the day. I don't really want to try anything new but perhaps she would be able to handle a 45 min nap earlier in the day and still go to bed fine at BT. Just wondering if that would also add to helping her settle better. My husband is not keen to change anything right now (me neither really), but just a thought I had. Wondering what you think.
Any ideas? x
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Hi there Hun,
Well that is much much better :) There will of course be a lot of accumulated OT which will take time to go. Also remember that it is a cold hard fact that 'sleep begets sleep' and always with S once he became able to sleep better he would look more tired and yawn more etc, as the sleep gates open, so to speak, so hopefully this will help the fact that you now have to take the sides of the cot! That is just typical isn't it, something else in the mix, just as things are going better >:( We also had to move S into a toddler bed when he started to throw himself out :o ::) WRT that, yes, a baby gate on the door is a good idea, and what most people do at this point. I wonder if you can get away with leaving it open, and only close it IF she continuously gets out of bed. if she prefers it open, you may be able to use this as a bargaining tool :-\. Just a thought. Yes, you just return her to bed, I think it will be a case of seeing how she reacts to this, in the light of her crying at BT YK ??? It may be that if it upsets her greatly, it is better than you just shut the gate and sit at the other side of it, not paying her attention and just using a 'sleepy phrase' eg "It's sleepy time Sweetheart" and wait it out until she lies down herself. I have known many LO's fall asleep on the floor and then be moved into bed, but sometimes depending on the LO's personality it can be the fastest route to show how things work once in a 'Big girl bed' so to speak. Also, she may astound you and love having the sides of her bed, make a big deal of her being a big girl now today, and make it exciting for tonight. Maybe you could get her something like this which my DS absolutely loves, it could encourage her to stay in her bed:
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/1085220.htm
It shines stars all over the ceiling and a picture of whichever animal you choose :) It is very relaxing and can be on chase, or one colour, the blue is a good one, not too bright, and it has a time to go off after 20 mins if you do so choose.
WRT her routine, I think a 45 min nap early in the day would disrupt everything for sure, and agree things are best left alone routine wise for now. She is getting so much more sleep over the last couple of days.
Okay, I hope I haven't forgotten anything, please do ask any other questions you may have Hun and good luck!!! :-*
x.
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Hi
Thank you and I might get that toy if she starts trying to get out of the bed.
So yesterday we took the cot sides down and DD was very excited about sleeping in her ‘big bed’. As expected the excitement turned to tears though when I had to say goodnight to her and sit by the door. She did stay in the bed, was talking about wanting to get out, but when I told her that she must remain in the bed she did. She was very near the edge of the bed and I felt concerned that she may topple out and I ended up sitting closer to her. She has this thing at the moment of wanting to take off her clothes off when she is upset at bedtime. She got tangled up slightly in her pyjamas and I went to help her. I did this the other night and after helping her she decided that she wanted to lay down and I covered her over and she went to sleep. However, yesterday she grabbed me and was asking me to hug her. I did as it just felt like the right thing to do at the time. She was in a state and I was worried that the excitement of the ‘big bed’ had turned into something which felt very unfamiliar. She was then asleep in 5 minutes, as she was really tired. The problem is that now I think she is going to expect the same thing tonight and I worry about starting a habit.
Then unfortunately at 12:30 am she also woke, I think this again was due to the fact that it felt new being in her big bed, or perhaps she felt hot under the covers, I don’t know. I was unsure what temperature the room should be. She has a 4 tog duvet and is wearing pyjamas and the temperature was 20 in the room. Is that about right? Anyway, when she woke, again she was asking for a hug so I did hug her and she was soon dozing on me. The problem was that when I tried to lay her back down she kept waking up so it took me about an hr 45 mins until I could leave the room. She wasn’t completely awake for all of that time but she was in quite a light sleep. Here was her EASY for yesterday:
WU 7:10
S 12 – 12:30
BT 8 pm (asleep for 8:30 pm)
I’m worried about turning this having to hug her to sleep thing into a bad habit but at the same time I feel that she needs me to be close by at the momement. Perhaps I could try telling her to lay down tonight but sit by her bed instead of the door. I think this would also help reassure me that she won’t fall off the edge also. Are all these tears typical of the 1-0 process? I used to be able to say goodnight, leave the room and she would lay down and fall asleep.
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Hello Hun,
Honestly I think she did really well bless her. I also think you did the right thing to give her a cuddle, we all worry about habit forming, but taking the sides down is a change and she needed you, it's so important first and foremost that you respond to her needs which is the essence of BW ;) so try not to worry. Moving forward I also think if necessary it would be a good idea to sit by her bed if she needs you to, then maybe just a hand on her back would be enough to help her settle. With regards to APOP I came to find the best way to go about it to start out with the minimum amount and then move towards doing more from your LO's reaction, so you then know you aren't doing more than necessary, does that make sense? So tonight try being outside the gate, then go in if she is upset and then put your hand on her back if she needs it, and so on and so forth.
WRT to the temperature in her room, honestly I'm not sure about exact details, but I do know if Sam is too hot he will simply kick the covers off and has done from her age, just ask her if she is too hot or too cold if you have doubts Hun. If she in thin pj's then a duvet I would say is necessary. Does she have a fitted sheet? What I do with Sam still (due to worrying about him falling out onto an arm he dislocated last year :() is I roll up a small blanket and put it under the fitted sheet on the edge of the bed. It means we don't have a side rail but it is enough to stop him from falling out.
Are all these tears typical of the 1-0 process? I used to be able to say goodnight, leave the room and she would lay down and fall asleep.
Yes for many LO's and TBH we have had this behaviour quite a few times, and it just passes with time. Her routine looks good to me yesterday, the nap wasn't too late which will make it easier for her to come round from it, and her day wasn't too long.
x.
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Gosh a dislocated arm sounds awful, poor little lovely!! We have put a cotbed guard on the side of the bed. I'm not putting it up until she falls asleep as due to her being so upset I worry that she may climb on it and fall out again when she is trying to settle. I think this will hopefuly help though with her not falling out in her sleep.
As she is so near the edge of the bed when she is crying, I do feel that I want to be a bit closer to her to help her settle right now as I worry that she may fall otherwise. Before Christmas she had a 2 year molar come up and I was laying on the floor beside her until she feel asleep as she was a bit teary (not the same as now) and perhaps some SA was in the mix too. Right now I can't see any teeth cutting (although they may soon as she still has 3 more to go) so I don't think this is adding to our problem right now but it may also be in the mix soon. I felt laying on the floor gave her the comfort she needed but without too much of a prop so if I can perhaps I could work on trying to get back to that? And then I can eventually move out of the room.
What do you think?
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What do you think?
I think that could be a good call Hun :) I know many favour that as a half way house during these tricky times, she knows your there, but it is hands off. DS used to peer through the cot bars at me every so often and say "There my Mammy!" then lie back down, oh be still my beating heart how quickly they grow ;) Good luck Sweetie.x.
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Oh that's so sweet!
So last night actually went really well. Before she had her bath I told her that we were going to practice how she was going to go to sleep tonight. She got in her bed and we read her bedtime stories. We then sang her songs and helped her to practice laying down on the covers with her pillow over her. I also showed her that I was going to lay on the floor next to her bed while she fell asleep. She was very happy with all of this and when it came to actually doing it I expected tears but she did not cry at al last night. She did spent time playing with her lovelies, attempted to get out of bed once but listened to me when I told her to remain in the bed. She then tried to take her pyjamas off which I helped her with as she was struggling. Then she wanted me to cover her in her old gro bag instead of the duvet and fell asleep!!!! Wow, I was shocked at how well it went and so relived not to have another bedtime with tears and screams!
It did take her an hr in total to settle, but then she slept all night which was great too! This was her EASY for yesterday:
WU 7:30
S 12-12:30
BT 8pm (asleep by 8:55)
WU 7 am
She only had a 10 hr night but it is all a big improvement from where we were. Just wondering, what would be the signs of us needing to either cut the nap down or out completely. Would it be her taking a long time to fall asleep at BT. I know you said that it can all chance quite quickly for some little ones, so just trying to be prepared for that!
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Good morning Hun,
That is wonderful, what a super result. It sounds like she really benefits from you laying out exactly what will be happening, DS has always needed this, clear plans and instructions and I think it's a super thing to do always.
WRT the nap, when I think of where you've come from i would say to leave it as is for now, as she is doing so much better. Also and importantly because her sleeping arrangements have changed you can't know what it is that was causing it to take 1 hour to go over, so wait it out until she is used to her new bed and then review.
Well done you.x.
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Hi!
So yesterday went really well again in terms of her not crying at bedtime, but it did take her longer to fall asleep. Here was her EASY:
WU 7 am
S 11:40 - 12:10
BT 8 pm (not asleep until 9:20 pm)
WU 7:05 am
So she only had a 9 hr 45 min sleep last night. I do agree with seeing how things go in regards to not changing her having a nap. But just a thought that when her night is short I could probably get her to nap earlier in the morning. Do you think that could make a difference?
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But just a thought that when her night is short I could probably get her to nap earlier in the morning. Do you think that could make a difference?
It did for us Hun, so I definitely think it's worth a try.x.
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Hi
So it seems that things have gone very wonky again. This was her EASY for yesterday. I didn't get to try the earlier nap, but can do from now on if need be. Is it just a case of the earlier the better or does she need to have a certain amount of A time in the morning?
WU 7 am
S 11:40 – 12:10
BT 8 pm (not asleep until 9:50)
WU 6:25 am
Yesterday at bedtime she started to refused to stay in her bed and I could see that she looked tired but could not settle. It was exactly the same sort of behaviour which we had a few weeks ago when we had to really cut the nap. She then also only had an 8 and a half hour night last night – yikees!!
She is with my sister today and I wasn’t sure what to tell her to do, but I suggested to let her have the 30 min cat nap in the car at about 11 am. I’m really wondering now if this nap needs to go or be changed in any way? Any ideas on the best way forward from here. I will be with her all day tomorrow and the weekend so if any adjustments need to be made then it would be a good time to do it. Ugh - just when I thought things were setttling a little! xx
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Hey Hun,
Honestly with the 1-0 you just have to try things and see what happens, for us as early as possible worked, but not for a long time, as things were constantly transitional. I would suck it and see. It may be that you need to start with some deliberate no nap days shortly.
((HUGS)) and good luck Sweetie.x.
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Hi
Thanks you for your support! I’m starting to feel stressed again by it all.
So I’m going to try an earlier nap tomorrow, unfortunately my sister couldn’t today, but she has napped from 11:35 – 12:05 and apparently is in good spirits!! That’s great considering she had such a short night last night.
Tonight we are going to dinner at my parent’s house and I think I will just let her fall asleep in the car on the way home and then transfer her to the cot. I’m hoping this should be less stressful for us both and also get her to sleep a little quicker then if I was attempting to do it in her room, but we’ll see. I’ll then try an earlier nap say from 10:30 – 11 am tomorrow and see if that can make a difference to the bedtime resistance which we have been having. If she naps then it will be about an hr earlier than it has been previously.
I feel that I need a plan on how to approach bedtime tomorrow though and was wondering if you could help me with it. Last night she did not want me to lay on the floor next to her bed after we read her stories and I think this was her way of just saying that she didn’t feel able to fall asleep. Instead she wanted to get out of bed and walk around her room. I just found that I didn’t know what to do to be honest as it took me by surprise. I tried reading with her more and giving her more time to make her tired enough to fall asleep, cuddling her, laying on the floor and trying not to interact with her in hope that she would get back in bed and go to sleep. However, instead she just wanted to lay next to me but could not settle even though she was rubbing her eyes and was obviously tired. I even told her that I was going out of the room to the bathroom but would be back which she was fine with, but she was just jumping around in her room clearly unable to settle. In the end she got teary and I cuddled her to sleep.
Obviously the cotbed is a very new thing for her (and for me). I want to try to start as I mean to go on and have more of a plan in my mind on how to approach things when she tries to get out of bed. I really don’t feel that the issue for her last night was the fact that her sleeping arrangements were new though. I think that due to her routine she was just not able to fall asleep when I was asking her to. It makes it hard then as she is resisting bedtime for that reason and until I am able to help her with a more suitable EASY then I think we will just keep having more resistance resulting in her getting out of bed. In the meantime, I don’t want to start too many bad habits and want to try to have a more consistent approach if I can. So of course the plan is to adapt her EASY to help with the bedtime resistance, but each night I don’t know what to expect when I put her to bed. She may adapt well to an earlier nap time and want to go to sleep more easily but she may not. So any ideas on how I should deal with her attempting to get out of bed and basically wanting to play? I think trying to put her back in the bed will just result in a battle of wills and I don’t feel comfortable with this as I do think if she was tired enough she would listen to me and lie down and sleep, and I feel her behaviour is telling me that she is just not ready to sleep as opposed to being mischievous.
On the flip side to this, we have always had a bedtime routine with some boundaries so she knows what to expect each night and I feel this helps her. If I start letting her play and walk around etc then I think those essential boundaries may be compromised and in the future when she does begin to adjust well to not having a nap then she may keep on getting out of her bed as she has not had those boundaries established. So just wondering if you have any ideas on how to approach all of this bedtime resistance whist trying to maintain some boundaries too? Any ideas? xxx
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Gosh, I wish I could give you a straight answer Hun :( It is unfortunate that moving to a bed has coincided with the 1-0, it is a tricky situation for sure. There are 3 approaches that I know of.
Return her to bed silently every time she gets out. I have tried this, and I tell you with no hesitation it is hard, and IMHO not the best way to go if you can avoid it. Firstly, it means she is getting attention, so it can quickly become 'a game' in her eyes. Secondly she may just find it upsetting and get cry a lot. Thirdly it is a battle of wills, and can take a long time.
The other way isn't easy either, sorry, but I think it is better. Just let her walk around the room and do her thing. Use your sleepy phrase, plus ask her to get back into bed in as few words as possible. Don't enter into any play or extra activities with her, just sit. Eventually most LO's will lie themselves down when tired enough. This may not even be in the bed, it may be beside you on the floor or wherever. But, the next night she will know what is going to happen if she gets out of bed and that it is not interesting or fun, and the hope is she won't bother in the end.
Thirdly, you could take her mattress out of the cot if you have room and let her sleep on it on the floor for a while. For whatever reason, it helps with some LO's, it's like flopping down on a mattress on the floor is less like getting back in, strange but true.
I'd try the earlier nap tomorrow and if it doesn't help I'd seriously think of alternating no nap days with EBT and an early nap day with later BT.
x.
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Hi!
Thank you all of that info is really helpful! I think I'll try the second option but if we get to a place where it's not working then I may have to try the first. Ugh! Such bad timing with the 1-0 and her needing the cotbed coinciding!!
So last night on the way home she fell asleep very quickly in the car, she was absolutely shattered! This was her EASY yesterday:
WU 6:30
S 11:35-12:05
BT 7:50 (fell asleep in the car)
WU 6:20
So she had a 10 hr 30 min sleep which is good but she is still very tired. I'll try an earlier nap today then and see if that helps withbedtime tonight!
Thanks again! Really appreciate your help!! xx
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That's the way I would go too Hun, you're so welcome, my pleasure, sending more 'sleepy vibes' your way.x.
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Hi
So I managed to get the earlier nap in yesterday. This was her EASY:
WU: 6:20
S 10:20-11:50
BT 8:15 (asleep by 9:10)
WU 6:30
Bedtime was later than usual as she was refusing to get in the bath. She was very tired and also had pooed and I hadn't realised so was getting grumpy about going in the bathroom. Looking back, I should have just skipped the bath as I think she was just wanting to go to bed. Just before she did get in bed she even asked me if she could skip a TV show and go upstairs. She was very tired.
She did get out of the bed though and I laid on the floor. I found it really hard but she fell asleep next to me in the end and I then transferred her. My gut feeling is it took her time to fall asleep because it was a new way to learn to fall asleep as opposed to not being tired enough or perhaps OT didn't help either, what do you think?
I'm thinking to keep with the earlier nap today but as wake up time is getting earlier to perhaps try an earlier bedtime as her day is getting longer. Do you think this also may help her get a longer night, she is so tired this morning. I was hoping to keep her wake up from 7-7:30 but guessing that may go out of the window now. Ugh!
xx
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Morning,
Yes, I'd go early nap again, and think about switching her BT routine around with bath earlier possibly ??? Or like you say go for a wash and skip if you think she is already sleepy.
I think an early night is worth trying for, no guarantee she'll take it, but worth a try. In the light of her sleeping on the floor, is it worth going with the mattress on the floor plan while she goes through this transition to take the bed situation out of the picture ??? I have a feeling she may like it.x.
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Hi
So I managed to get her to sleep in the car from 10 -10:30 am. Just wondering if she looks like she may be more receptive to an earlier bedtime what time would you suggested - 7:30?
Today is far, after a 9 hr 20 min sleep, has been:
WU 6:30
S 10-10:30
BT ?
I agree that if the mattresses had been on the floor last night then I think she would have fallen asleep on it as opposed to the rug on the floor. The problem is that now she absolutely loves the fact that she has a bed which she can climb in and out of. I think that even though she won't fall asleep on it right now, she would feel really upset about the mattresses being on the floor instead of the bed frame and this could cause a lot of problems. If we had started it from the beginning when we took the sides down then I think she would have been fine with it but not sure this is the way forward from here.
Just wondering, I know you mentioned that you had experience of putting your little one back in the bed every time he got out, did you ever try the approach I'm currently doing or know of anyone who has had success? Obviously each toddler is different but do you know roughly how long it would take? What I found hard last night is there was one point where she was asking me to hug her. I told her that it was sleepy time and she need to get back to bed, but gosh that was so hard!!! I was just thinking that if I had hugged her then there isn't really any purpose in what I was trying to achieve as she would want to get out of bed each night for that to happen, am I right in my thinking? Gosh, I really hate it when sleep issues arise. I always find these times so difficult!! :(
xx
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I'm sorry I couldn't get back to you yesterday Hun, DH laptop crashed and he was using mine to lesson plan :(. It would have been more than my life's worth to approach ;)
The problem is that now she absolutely loves the fact that she has a bed which she can climb in and out of. I think that even though she won't fall asleep on it right now, she would feel really upset about the mattresses being on the floor instead of the bed frame and this could cause a lot of problems.
Agreed, it would only work if she wasn't keen on her bed, but that's good news.
Just wondering, I know you mentioned that you had experience of putting your little one back in the bed every time he got out,
Yes, it became a game and it went on for 50 minutes the first night, my back was killing me and I was almost in tears. By the 2nd night I left him to it, so I've done both. By night 3, Sam got bored and got back into bed himself with what you're doing now.
What I found hard last night is there was one point where she was asking me to hug her. I told her that it was sleepy time and she need to get back to bed, but gosh that was so hard!!!
Yes, it is hard, and that is a very good question Hun. If she comes over to you for a (HUG) maybe at this point you could simply say "Into bed Sweetheart and Mammy will give you a hug" I'm thinking if getting into bed is teamed with a hug, she may do it. Then tuck her in and give her a big squeeze then stay on your chair, not holding her the whole time. Any chance that kind of approach may work ??? I completely see where you're coming from. Also I would talk talk talk to her in the day time, praising her for being in her bed, and saying how well she is doing etc.
Lots of ((HUGS)) Hun, it really is stressful, I hope last night was better.x.
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Good Morning
Thank you for you response!
So yesterday was a mixed bag really. She was extremely tired to the point where she fell over at 4 pm and as my DH was cuddling her she nearly fell asleep on him. We went for the earlier bedtime of 7:30. She only stayed in her bed for 2 minutes and refused to get in for her stories which we usually read. I tried many different approaches to get her in the bed. I then I told her that she needed to get in the bed and I went to lay on the floor. She then got in what I would describe as a panic, grabbing my face and asking me to wake up :(. So I told her that we could sit on the bed together which she was happy with. She was such an OT mess. We then read her stories and I told her that she needed to stay in the bed, she asked me to sit on the edge of the bed and I did. At one point she went to get out of the bed and I told her that she needed to stay in. She started to ignore me so I said that if she stayed in the bed then I would stay in the bed too. (Not sure if this was the best thing to say as obviously at some point I do want to get off the bed with her staying in but in the moment I was unprepared on how to handle things). So she wanted to settle very quickly after this. I tried to get her to lay down on her pillow but she wouldn't. She ended up falling asleep within minutes on my lap. So glad she fell asleep quickly but not in the ideal way!
The good news is she then had a 10 hr 50 min sleep. She is still tired this morning but hopefully we are heading in the right direction with lengthening her night sleep. This was her EASY yesterday:
WU 6:30
S 10-10:30
BT 7:30 (asleep at 7:50)
WU 6:40
She is so tired right now I think I just need to take a very gradual approach with bedtime, like you were suggesting in your last post. It's hard from my perspective as it feels like we have made a massive backwards step, but I have done a lot of APOP in the past and made adjustments but when the time has been right we have always been able to get back on track - this is what I keep telling myself anyway!!
It would be a lot better if she had fallen asleep on the pillow instead of me, I could just keep trying with this, perhaps she will. Or do you think I should keep trying to get on the floor perhaps. Gosh so hard to know what to do, any ideas really appreciated! xx
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Hello Hun,
You know it's good to have a plan, but so important to remember that she has been an independent sleeper so she will be again. Bless her, I can just see her grabbing your face. Take my advise if it's any good to you Hun, but you are her Mammy and you know her like no other, so go with your gut when you 'feel' what she needs. Keep in mind getting as much sleep into her is number 1, anything else can follow. When Sam was 2 I spent almost 3 months lying with him until he went to sleep, because anything else left him so upset. A wise and lovely BW reminded me that one day he will be grown and I will long to cuddle up with him while he goes to sleep :) So try not to worry about going backwards, I have done far too much of that too.
It looks like the really early nap may help for now, keeping everything crossed that's the case.
(((HUGS)))
x.
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Hi!
Yes thank you for your advice, I think she is struggling right now and I just need to do what feels right - thank you you have helped to reassure me to just follow my instinct and not to worry about it all for now. As you said, right now helping her to sleep is the number one priority!!
Yesterday afternoon we spent a long time playing with her teddy bears and putting them to bed. She actually initiated it by putting lots of pillows on the floor and covering them up in her pyjamas. She wanted me to sing to them the songs which I sing to her before bed. I took it as an opportunity to speak about bedtime and emphasis the point that they needed to stay in their beds after the song, there were books in there which they could look at if they wanted until they were ready to sleep, but they must stay in the bed. She loved doing this and I was hoping it may help teach her what to do at bedtime.
Closer to bedtime she seemed much more awake than the previous days and bath time wasn't an issue like it has been. When we went upstairs she did get in her bed but during the songs she wanted to get out. I reminded her that when the songs were finished she could look at her books but she must remain in her bed. She was receptive to this and did stay in the bed. She kept laying down on the pillow too and covering herself with the covers but just could not sleep. I was sitting on the edge of the bed as she didn't want me on the floor. It took a long time for her to fall asleep but when she did she actually chose to lay on her pillow and cover herself with the duvet instead of laying on my lap which I thought was great!! She had also spent a good hour remaining in her bed without trying to get out so again I was really pleased with this!
This was her EASY yesterday:
WU 6:40
S 10:15-10:45
BT 7:45 (asleep at 9:10 pm )
However she did wake in gone night at 12 pm and took roughly an hr and a half to fall back to sleep! I also heard her cry out twice at various different times after that. She then woke up at 7:20 am. When she woke in night she wanted me to cuddle her on her bed which I did.
Not sure what to make of her taking so long to go to sleep at bedtime and also the night wakes, do you think this could be a sign that she is heading towards a no nap day. Just before Christmas she got her first two year molar, but surprisingly slept really well while this was going on (we've had a lot of problems with teeth and sleep in the past). I can't see any more cutting but I'm aware that they may soon so this could start to affect things too. My sister has her today and I've told her to stick yo the 30 min earlier nap. Do you think this is the way forward? xx
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Nice role play, that's great Hun :) I'm a big fan. For now I think I would stick with the routine, and it sounds to me like she wants to be able to see you, which I'm presuming she can't so well when you're lying on the floor, maybe she needs visual re-assurance ???
Is there room to put a chair next to her bed ??? I think if it were me (IIWM) I would try that tonight, and maybe even put a hand on her, so she is comfortable in the fact you are still there if she closes her eyes. See if this results in her falling asleep faster.
Also I have been advised that lavender is super for helping LO's relax at BT, I have heard you can put it in the bath and a couple of drops on the pillow, behind the ears or on the feet :) I have been meaning to try that myself for Sam, and plan on getting some. I also like the idea of diffusing it in a room, maybe at wind down. This could be worth a try too.
My thoughts are that it is really hard to tell whether it's time for a no nap day or two at the moment until she is completely settled and comfortable with her new sleeping arrangements, so I do think for a few more days it might be wise to hang fire with the current routine.
Thoughts ??? :-*
x.
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Oh thank you! I think you might be right about her needing to see me - that's a really good point!! I think I'll do more role play with her this afternoon and maybe try to introduce the chair so it isn't too much of a shock for her for tonight. I think that did help to prepare her last night. I might leave the chair until tomorrow but I'll see! Feeling like I need to take things very slowly right now. Think when I try it I'll put it really close to the bed so I still feel very near to her. Then if that works perhaps I can eventually work on
the chair getting further away!! Going go give that lots of time though.
Thanks!! Lavendar is a good tip too, may try to get some of that!! xx
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Think when I try it I'll put it really close to the bed so I still feel very near to her.
Absolutely Hun, right next to the bed so you can also put a hand on her if she needs it :) Maybe when you do the role play, you can suggest it and put it further away from her bed then ask her "Would it be good here?" at which point she is likely to direct you to put it right next to the bed, this means to her she has made the decision where it is good for Mammy to be, which will hopefully result in her being happy with it, are you with me ??? ;)
Good Luck :)
x.
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With you! That sounds like a great idea!!!! x
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Hi!
She had been very grumpy yesterday and when I looked in her mouth, I could see that she did have a tooth starting to cut. I think this explains the night wake yesterday too. We have her meds at bedtime and feel asleep in 45 min, stayed asleep all night and had a 10 hr 25 min sleep so that's good! Here was her EASY for yesterday:
WU 7:30
S 10:30-11 pm
BT 8 pm (asleep at 8:45)
WU 7:10
I think the earlier 30 min nap is working well for now so going to stick with it. Yesterday afternoon she initiated making a bed on the floor with cushions. I introduced the chair and she was fine with this. At bedtime she seemed ok with the chair too, but then started to climb on my lap when I was in the chair. As she is teething I just sat on her bed an moved the chair away. Do you think I should try again tonight? Any ideas what to say if she try's to sit on my lap again, perhaps I could lean over to hug her while she is still in the bed? I think it would be good to try to get her used to a chair being in the picture instead of me just sitting on the end of the bed. She was trying to interact with me a lot. I did cuddle her and also ask her if she would like to lay down and try to sleep which she kept trying to do and eventually did fall asleep on the bed. She also remained in her bed which was fantastic and I've been giving her lots of praise about it. She is very proud of herself and I am of her!!!
Thanks for your help!! xx
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Hi Honey,
Ah bless her, teething can make LO more clingy too, it sounds like she needs lots of cuddles right now. Can I ask did you put your hand on her when she was in the bed before she wanted to get onto your knee ??? If not I would do that when in the chair, even with a gentle pat or rub to comfort her. I agree that keeping her in the bed is the main thing, so if she needs to see and feel your presence that's fine, it's all stages and little steps. What happened last night Hun ???
Just quickly checking in before work this morning Hun, but I'll try and be back tonight :) Hope you have a good day :-*
x.
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Hi!
Last night I tried to move into the chair after her bedtimes songs, but she wouldn't let me even start them and was more upset then yesterday, she was very teary! I tried to reassure her from the chair, cuddling her from there and telling her I was right here and she could cuddle me whenever she wanted to. She still was very upset and I sat back in the bed as she was asking me to. Thinking back, I've realised that for some reason when she gets upset it's after we have read her stories and I start to sing her bedtime songs. Not sure why but perhaps she's anticipating me to leave afterwards and begins to feel anxious, not sure. So perhaps I should just skip that bit, the thing is sometimes she wants to sing the songs and other times she doesn't. I think I'll just ask her what she wants from now on and perhaps at this point it is not the best time to move to the chair. I have also tried starting the bedtime settling in the chair to read her books from there, but again she wants me to sit on the edge of the bed. Anyway once I had moved back to the bed I tried to sing the songs and she then got out of the bed. I could tell that this was just an impulse response and when I called her back she immediately got back in. I then just told her she needed to stay in her bed but could continue looking at her books until she was ready to sleep. I just wanted to make it really relaxed and low pressure. She did this without even trying to engage me and when she put the books down I said, why don't you try to see if you can sleep now. She did, asked me to cover her with the duvet and went to sleep very quickly. I was really pleased!!
This was here EASY yesterday:
WU 7:10
S 10:45 -11:15
BT 7:50 (asleep by 8:05!! - wow!!)
WU: 6:30
We gave her meds before bed and she slept for 10 hr 25 mins. There seems to be a pattern of this being the longest amount of sleep she can do at the moment. Will this change or just be something which hopefully will happen once we are ready to drop the nap? She has always only ever managed an 11 hr night and this hasn't happened, unless she has been ill for perhaps nearly a year!
So basically I'm so pleased with how far we have come. She is tired in the day but is managing. I definitely think that SA is in the mix so do want to take the sleep thing really slowly and at her pace. She has really struggled with teeth in the past and SA has been in the mix then too. She has been an independent sleeper since 6 months old but when she was teething her first set of molars and canines I used the pushchair to get her to sleep for bedtime, naps and night wakes as she could not settle on me to sleep back then and refused to lay down so I could not place a hand on her for extra comfort etc. My sister and husband could put her down for naps but she was hysterical with me. All of the APOP actually went on for probably 6 months, each tooth came up very slowly, one after the other and I didn't want to put us both through the ordeal of WI/WO any more than necessary. (Gosh, glad we are not back there, it was awful with many long night wakes)! Anyway once she had her teeth, I settled her with WI/WO and she was back to sleeping independently within 3 days with not too much distress at all, so guess it goes to show that like you said sometimes you've just got to do what needs to be done.
I think I may try the chair again but at a different point during the routine. The thing is I have never used it before and when and have done GW in the past, I have always sat on the floor, so I am wondering if perhaps it feels too new to her. Last night I was remembering reading somewhere that some mummies tell their little ones that they are leaving the room and will be back shortly, not sure how it works, do you? I was actually thinking that perhaps this would work better but at a point when she is ready and SA is not so prominent, guessing when all her teeth have come. I know you mentioned you were cuddling your little one to sleep for about 3 months, how did you manage to resolve that?
Thanks for your help, good to know you are here!! xx
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I then just told her she needed to stay in her bed but could continue looking at her books until she was ready to sleep. I just wanted to make it really relaxed and low pressure. She did this without even trying to engage me and when she put the books down I said, why don't you try to see if you can sleep now. She did, asked me to cover her with the duvet and went to sleep very quickly. I was really pleased!!
I think this is great, and it's important to take her lead if you can ie: try something again if it works YK ???
If she's not keen on the chair at the moment, don't worry about it, if you feel it's fine to sit on the bed for now, I would just do it.
Last night I was remembering reading somewhere that some mummies tell their little ones that they are leaving the room and will be back shortly, not sure how it works, do you? I was actually thinking that perhaps this would work better but at a point when she is ready and SA is not so prominent, guessing when all her teeth have come.
Yes I've done this quite often, even at the moment with DS. It's basically WI/WO with vocals ;) it may even be worth a try at the moment. You could tell her she can read her books like last night and then say "Mammy's just going to the bathroom and I'll be back" or whatever, and see what happens, just stay out 2 or 3 minutes and see her reaction, especially as you have used WI/WO successfully before.
I think you are a Mammy that reads her LO very very well, and TBH I am inclined at this point to ask you to take the reigns and go with your gut feeling, you're Mother's Instinct. I know you won't do more than you believe is necessary, but I'm sure you will give her enough so she is not upset.
Let me know how tonight goes :-*
x.
x.
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Good Morning Hun,
I hope things are going well? Just checking in as I haven't heard from you in a couple of days.
I think you are a Mammy that reads her LO very very well, and TBH I am inclined at this point to ask you to take the reigns and go with your gut feeling, you're Mother's Instinct. I know you won't do more than you believe is necessary, but I'm sure you will give her enough so she is not upset.
I hope you didn't think this was me signing off ^ :( ???
What I was trying to say perhaps badly :-\ :-\ is that you are clearly an awesome Mammy with great instincts, and just to encourage you to trust them a bit more. Sometimes we forget to do that, and it's so important to trust yourself. I hope to hear from you soon Sweetie.x.
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Hi there!
Oh no I totally got what you were saying - that's such a nice thing to say!!
I was crazy busy at work yesterday and then had a super early night as I had a bad headache and was really shattered. My dd has been very clingy this morning and had people over too so just not had a minute to reply. Anyway turns out she has another tooth cutting so think this explains why she is so clingy!! Also where her last tooth is due she now has a hole in her gum and it looks like that tooth will break through soon too. So potentially that means she may have three on the move at the same time soon - yikes!! She is holding things together so well right now during the day and bedtime has greatly improved too. Yay!! Let's just hope it stays that way!!
I've continued with sitting on her bed until she is asleep. I read her books with her and tell her that she can then keep looking at them until she'd is ready to sleep, but she must stay in bed. She does this and then asks me to cover her with the duvet when she is ready and falls asleep on the bed. Think as so much is going on with teeth right now, I will keep things like this and start trying to get out of the room when it's a better time for her. I'm not sure she would respond very well right now. Think she really needs my physical presence.
What happens with leaving the room then? You leave and then go back a few mins later and then say you are leaving again. Do you just stand by the door or actually go back in the room?
Her EASY hasn't been too bad either but her nights are only around 10 hrs - 10 hrs 30 maximum. Do you think they will start to lengthen or will that only happen once she drops the nap? xx
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Hi!
She went to sleep really well last night. Fell asleep at 8:30 and slept all night, but she woke at 6 am! This is really early for her! I think it is likely her teeth causing the early wake. She is tired and very grumpy. Going to give her meds to try to help. The thing is my in laws are coming today and was hoping for an 8 pm bedtime. Do you think I could try a 45 min sleep with this bedtime or is it just best to stick to the 30 min sleep with an earlier bedtime if I think she needs it?
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Also meant to add that her last tooth is now cutting through the gum so we have three on the move right now - yikes!!
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What happens with leaving the room then? You leave and then go back a few mins later and then say you are leaving again. Do you just stand by the door or actually go back in the room?
There's no hard and fast rules really, I tend to just pop my head in, if he is awake ask him if he is okay, then tell him what I'm going to do next and that I'll be back again.
Her EASY hasn't been too bad either but her nights are only around 10 hrs - 10 hrs 30 maximum. Do you think they will start to lengthen or will that only happen once she drops the nap? xx
Yeah, it's a killer, some LO's only clock up 9.5/10 hours total! Sam slept 11 hours absolute max, and then when he finally dropped the nap completely he went to 13.5 hour nights, had a massive catch up, reduced to 13 hour nights for quite some time. That's the good bit ;)
Do you think I could try a 45 min sleep with this bedtime or is it just best to stick to the 30 min sleep with an earlier bedtime if I think she needs it?
It's stressful when others are around, IIWM, and she isn't coping well, I would let her have that longer nap and just deal with what happens at BT. The teething will be making her extra tired, so there is a possibility that as long as you give her meds before BT she will still go over, but you don't know unless you try. Take the route of the least stress Sweetie, I would.
Good Luck.x.
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Hi Vicki (just noticed your name on your signature)
Hope you had a good weekend. We did but finding things hard again right now. We did manage to keep to 30 min naps and her usual bedtime, but she is beginning to become getting resistant to napping in the car. Think she is realising that we are trying yo get her to sleep and it is a struggle to get her in. She had also been taking longer to fall asleep at bedtime. Last night she didn't fall asleep until 9:30and she was awake at 6:30, so only a 9 hr night! My sister has her today and I have just told her to stick to the 30 min car nap. I'm thinking that perhaps I should try a no nap day tomorrow though. What do you think? Teeth are obviously in the mix but I'm not sure that is the root of the problem. I'm so nervous about no nap days though. How does it work? What should her day length be? Trying EBT has never worked in the past and she I can't remember the last time she even managed an 11 hr night to be honest - yikes!!
Thank you again for all your help and support, I really appreciate it!!
Hayley
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Hi Hayley,
I agree it sounds like time to try a no nap day. WRT how it works, just see how she handles it and try and get her down at BT as soon as you can, even if it is super early. Remember with the 1-0 what has happened before tends to go our of the window, so she could well pull her first long night in a long time. Also if she wakes very early, then you can treat is as a NW, keep her in her bed and APOP until a reasonable wake up time. I'd include meds at that time too.
How does that sound ???
x.
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Hi
Thank you! I shall try a no nap day tomorrow then! If she has another short night again, is it still a good time to do it? I'm thinking the idea is she just needs a push in the right direction to help her increase her night sleep, right? And perhaps she may only start having short nights with the nap now?
xx
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I think you might have to take it one day at a time Honey. It may be that she has a short night anyway, but crashes out unavoidably on day 2. Or she may go 2 days, but on night 2 she sleeps a good long night, you really don't know until you try. Just watch her and trust your instincts rather than having a solid plan. I wish I had a definitive answer for you, but unfortunately I never found one either.
x.
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Ok, thanks! Will see how it goes then.
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Hi Vicki
So last night she didn't fall asleep until 9:30 which was to be expected as my sister let her have a 30 min nap in the morning. I heard her at 5 in the morning but thankfully she went straight back to sleep until 7:20. I was really pleased we had a better night with a later WU as it seems like a good place to start a no nap day.
This morning I was thinking about a 6:30 bedtime. It's 2:30 now and although she nearly fell asleep in the car earlier she is doing well so far, perhaps a little more wobbly on her feet. Is 6:30 too late to aim for, obviously I don't want it to be too early either. I will just see how she is as the afternoon progressed but just wondering if you see this post in time, if you have any thoughts?
Thanks, Hayley xx
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6.30 sounds good to me Hun, if she looks ready, go for it! Good Luck.x.
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Thanks! So our day generally went well, she seemed to cope well. Then at 5:15 when she was eating dinner, she was falling asleep at the table. When I got her down on the floor she woke and was keen to have her bath. She wasn't hyper but she was suddenly wide awake compared to how she had just been. She was also taking ages to get in the bath so time was ticking on. I was keen to give her meds and something else to eat before bed so out BT was a bit later at 6:45. Our EASY was this:
WU 7:20
BT 6:45 (asleep by 7:05)
When she got in bed, she was an OT mess. Standing on her bed screaming. I was putting my arms out to her, offering a cuddle but she wasn't wanting it. After about 10 mins if tears and screaming she did come to me and finally fell asleep in my lap!!
I guess I have to just see how the night goes now but if by some miracle it goes extremely well and she has a 11 hr sleep then should I try a no nap day tomorrow? Do you think I was too late with the bedtime? xx
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So it sounds like she had reached her limit at 10 hours Hun, doesn't it ??? If she had gone down at that time however, she would have had to pull a whopper of a night in order to not get a super EW, but you just don't know she may have done it. Then she seems to have gone super OT when you say she woke up, you've probably been there yourself when you're shattered and feel like you're running on adrenalin alone.
See what happens tonight Hun, if there are any OT NW and what length night she pulls. If you post early in the morning I'll check in on you.
Everything crossed for you Hun.x.
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Hi
So she woke at 4:40 and went back to sleep about 45 mins later. She then woke at 7:20. Obviously she woke due to OT but minus the wake she did have about an 11 and a half hour night which is much more than she has been getting. Do you think I should try a no nap day again?
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Morning :)
Ah that's great news, I half expected a NW as we used to get them at first. I would be tempted to do NN day 2 however I would still take it as it comes, and see how she is. I'd try for an earlier BT if you do go with no nap.x.
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Hi
Thank you. I was thinking about an earlier BT too. I think I try 6 and make sure we are on time tonight. Hopefully the better night sleep will help her handle it better too. We'll see!! xx
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6 is what I would shoot for too Hun. I think there is a chance if today is NN day 2 that she can pull a whopper night tonight. Please God.x.
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Hi
So she didn't have a nap today. Late morning I was going to take her to the shop, and I did wonder if I should try a nap too as she was beginning to get grumpy. However she wouldn't get in the car so I couldn't do this. Also when we got back in the house I realised she was very hungry so this may also have affected her mood. The day wasn't too bad really. Around 4 pm, she started to get hyper though but she didn't nearly fall asleep during dinner like yesterday.
She was in bed at 6:15, a little later than planned but I realised that my DH would be walking through the door at 6 and if she heard him whilst upstairs it would really disrupt bedtime. She wasn't as upset as yesterday but she was very restless and struggled to settle with tears at time. She was obviously overtired and she could not settle. In the end she fell asleep at 7 pm!! A lot later than I had hoped.
Of course I need to see how the night goes and how she is in the morning but just wondering if you have any thoughts? x
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Hi!
So she did sleep all night last night but woke at 6:10 am.
This was her EASY yesterday
WU 7:20
BT 6:15 (asleep 7 pm)
WU 6:10
She seems in good spirits this morning but is looking tired. I'm wondering if I should try a nap today? Otherwise bedtime would have to be extremely early, I think! What do you think? If so, should I am for a 30 min nap as early as poss and then her usual bedtime of 8 pm?
xx
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Morning, great that there were no NW :) Remember sleep begets sleep, so when an OT LO has had a good night they will look more tired than before, it means the flood gates have opened so to speak, so I'm not surprised she is looking tired this morning. It's possible she will fight a really early nap after an 11 hr plus night, but you can give it a whirl, and just try again a touch later if not.
Good luck.x.
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Hi
Thanks! I think you may be right about her refusing the nap. If that happens and it gets quite late, do you think a 3rd nap day in a row is ok? I'm thinking I would need to aim for 6 pm bedtime again?
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I would think about a cat nap around 4 pm of 15/20 mins if you can APOP it in the car. We did this quite a lot, once we started with NN days. The time that you give the cat nap is probably going to be round about the time she reaches her limit on day 3. It would be hard to wake her, so I'd resort to a car nap and bribery upon waking (her favourite sweeties for eg ;)) and then go with a BT of around 7.30. The very long A time before nap plus the short nap should ensure she will still go over at a decent time.
x.
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Hi
Thanks! So today has been really taxing! She just hasn't been herself, I think a mixture of tiredness and teeth. We've not had any meltdowns yet though thankfully - but nearly!
I had to work after 4 pm for a few hours so was unable to stick to what you suggested. I thought I would try for a short nap just after lunch as I could see that she needed something. I arranged to go to my mum's house as I thought she would get in the car easily then, and would sleep on the way. She had refused to get in the car yesterday but I thought with the thought of going somewhere I know she likes then it would motivate her. She was excited when I told her where we were going, but then she refused to get in the car. She kept wanting to run back to the house and was trying to delay going as much as possible. There was no way I could get her in without having a battle on my hands so I left it. This was all around 1:30 ish.
Then at 3 pm, she was looking extremely shattered and then announced that she wanted to go to Nana's house now. I thought to myself that I think what she is really saying is that she wants to go to sleep now as I had been thinking about it and wondering if has an association with sleep and the car. So I said to her come on let's go! She ran out the door but refused to put her coat on (this can be quite common and I just take it with us). However it was just starting to sleet outside and she was upset that she was getting wet. I suggested to put her rain jacket on which she loved and put the hood up so she would not get wet. But then she slipped over and was beside herself and insisted that we go back inside. Not sure if we would have made it to the car without the sleet and falling over incident, but it certainly felt more hopeful than before.
Anyway, bearing in mind I felt she was trying to tell me that she wanted to go to sleep, I put the TV on for her and let her sit on the sofa. I then went over to her to cuddle her and she was asleep within a minute! I let her have 20 mins from 3:05 - 3:25 pm. As you said she was extremely hard to wake and I had to make sure the TV was on and also offer her a cake (thanks for the food tip - worked wonders as the TV wasn't enough and usually is)!
So now the problem I have is that I think she is associating the car with going to sleep. This is making it really hard as I now can't go anywhere without her thinking I am trying to make her sleep. It seems she is fighting going to sleep so much. She also is not a fan of the pushchair right now as she is wanting to assert her independence so I don't think this will work either. At least I know I can use the sofa and cuddle her if she does get really tired, but I think the APOP in the car isn't an option now - Ugh!! And I don't want to keep affirming this association by using it as I think getting her to go out could become an issue? I think I may be stuck in the house for a while until she is more receptive to the car again. Did you experience this or know anyone else who has? I'm worried now that I won't be able to go out with her for her while. Hopefully it will pass soon, but yikees! I'm sure the teeth situation isn't helping with this either.
Going to aim for about a 7:30 bedtime, fingers crossed she goes down well and has a decent night. xx
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Hi Hayley,
I wonder if yes, she is asserting herself about getting in the car, very possibly because she knows you want her to sleep, but I suspect it;s not all about sleep, but rather that it is wrapped up in her becoming more assertive (it's that age) in all things, and testing boundaries, does that make sense ??? So the car thing is just part of it. Like you say, she is the same with the coat, insisting you go back inside and wanting to make other decisions for herself, being very assertive, I remember it very well. IIWM even if you do hope she will sleep in the car I would try announcing beforehand, "We're going to 'wherever' in the car, you can have a little sleep if you want to, but you don't have to, it is up to you" and see if it makes a difference. Or you could try for total reverse psychology and tell her "Mammy doesn't want you to sleep in the car, so that you sleep well tonight" ;) I think I would try the first option first ;)
Also try talking to her when you're having chill time, and just speak to her about everything, give her great detail about how important sleep is, ask her lots of questions about how she feels, what she prefers and name all of her emotions for her throughout the day, so she can help you understand more :)
Finger's crossed for a good night Hun.x.
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Hi!
Yes, I have seen a big change in her during the last month and she is certainly trying to push the boundaries. I can usually try different approaches which work but with the car yesterday I could see this was, for whatever reason, extremely difficult for her. I can try speaking up her, I really like that idea. I'm not sure she would be very receptive to it now but we'll see. I almost feel it may be better not to talk to her about it as it may make it a bigger deal, but I'm not sure. Up until now she very rarely gets like this about things and it may be that is all about to change due to age but this behaviour of digging her heels in so much is highly unusual. I think I'm going to just see how she is today and take it from there.
Unfortunately last night didn't go that well really. This was her EASY for yesterday:
WU 6:10
S 3:05 - 3:25
BT 7:30 (asleep at 9:00)
WU 6:15
So she only had 9 hrs 15 mins last night!! I think the 20 min cat nap at that time was too much for her. Just before we tried a no nap day she was pushing her day to 15 hrs with an early 30 min nap so that a similar pattern.
I really don't know what to do today! Any ideas? I may not be able to get her in the car either so it could be tricky. xx
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Oh dear, the hope was that the cat nap would work because of the 2 previous NN days, that's a shame :(
I'd go for the early nap routine today Hun, which I suspect she will take pretty early after a night that short. If you can't get her in the car opt for 'quiet time' snuggled up on the sofa, curtains drawn and low key TV, she may just drop off but if she doesn't it will help her through to EBT.
x.
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Hi Vicki
So I tried the car again this morning but again she wasn't receptive. She is asleep on the sofa now at 12:20 though. I really don't know how long to give her - yikes!! Going to try 15 mins, not sure what would you have done? Before no nap days a 30 min nap wasn't helping her even if it was early with a short night.
She will hopefully wake ok at 12:35. But what BT should I try, 7?
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Hi Vicki!
Last night actually went a lot better. I went for the 7 pm bedtime and she was asleep at 7:50 pm. This morning she woke at 6:55. So at least she had an 11 hr night.
I'm going to try a no nap day today and bedtime for 6? It would be great if her nights could lengthen some more, does this just take time?
I can see that her teeth are still cutting the gums and really troubling her (such a bad combination 1-0 and 3 molars cutting). Thankfully she has accepted meds this morning but doesn't always.
Anyway, if she continues to not get in the car then I will just have to roll with it and try the sofa for any naps. Once her teeth are all through, I will have to try different approaches and perhaps hold firmer boundaries but that's a whole new post in another place on this website! We'll get there!
xx
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Morning Hayley, I'm sorry I didn't get on yesterday, busy busy day.
How long did you give her for that sofa nap ??? What was she like when she woke ??? TBH I'd take sofa naps over car naps every time, if she'll take them, cheaper on fuel and it's cold out there ;) Very happy she had a longer night. It's impossible to say why though isn't it, this transition is a PITA! ;)
Just try and get a feel for the day, it might be handy to write things down, to remember nap time/lengths and BT so you can look back and see what you have done that worked to help you in future.
The molars are the worst, lots of love, cuddles and meds ;)
I hope today's a good one Hun.x.
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Hi Hayley, Just thought I'd jump on and say that your DD sounds so much like my DS - he started freaking out about the car and I too wondered if he associated it with me wanting him to go to sleep. I would make sure you try your best to mix it up so you go other places in the car, not only going in the car at nap time. My DS (now 3yrs old) still has freak outs about the car sometimes, I think it's pretty normal... Just frustrating as heck!!!! He hardly ever sleeps in the car now, I think they sometimes hate being restricted in movement as well. If he is tired it does make it worse though.
My son has never slept anywhere but his bed or the car. Or stroller as a baby. So if your DD will do a sofa nap, I'd totally embrace it too!
Good luck. This transition can totally be the pits!!
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Hi Vicki
Thank you!! I feel that in some ways I’m beginning to find my feet a little bit, that doesn’t mean that I feel I know what I’m doing, in fact the opposite, but perhaps I’m just getting a bit more used to having to judge each day as it comes. I’m going to keep a record of every day as you suggested. I was only thinking at the weekend that just 2 weeks ago she was falling asleep on my husband at 4 pm after an early 30 minute cat nap in the morning and now generally she can’t fall asleep at night with a 30 minute cat nap so that just goes to show how much things can so quickly change.
She had an 11hr 10 min sleep on Friday night and was visibly much more herself in mood and temperament. She wasn’t even showing any signs of tiredness really except perhaps first thing in the morning. I actually felt like my little girl was back, she was being happy and cheery! She had woken at 7 am and we went for a no nap day. Went really well and I had planned to shoot for a 6 pm bedtime. However things got delayed and by the time we had finished her routine of reading her stories it was more like 6:45 pm bedtime. It was great that she didn’t have a melt down and then fall asleep like she did on her first no nap day on Tuesday, but she didn’t fall asleep until 7:25!!
She then woke in the night and I was with her for about an hour but some of that time she was in a light sleep so not sure how much sleep she actually did get. I think the night wake was actually due to OT from a day which had been too long and she also woke at 6:10 am. She therefore did not pull a long enough night to be able to handle a no nap day yesterday. Here has been here EASY for the last few days as it may be easier to understand if I write it down like this:
11hr 10 min sleep (no night wake ups)
DAY 1
WU 7 am
BT 6:45 (asleep by 7:25 pm)
Night wake around 12- 1am
DAY 2
WU 6:10
S: 2:30 – 2:45 (fell asleep on me on the sofa)
BT 7:30(asleep at 8:20)
No night wakes
DAY 3
WU 7:05 am
(my sister has her today and is taking her out so hoping she doesn’t fall asleep in the car as I’d like her to have a no nap day, she is going to take her out locally, so fingers crossed)!
So I’m just wondering if you have any ideas on how long I should try to make her day on no nap days? At most she is only having an 11 hour nights, is it possible that this will lengthen in time? The sofa naps seem to be working well, she is really hard to wake though!!! Have to have cake at the ready!! Also as I can’t get her out in the car for naps now, I have to wait until she flakes out on the sofa. I’m finding that depending on what time of day that happens then I decide on what the nap length should be. So 15 mins has been working well if it is after lunch, but a 20 min nap at 3pm the other day really interfered with BT. So also I’m wondering, what is the least amount of sleep you have known anyone to give for a nap? Is 5-10 mins enough in some cases to just get through the next few hours of the day? xx
Rachsk8, thanks so much too for your post!! Sorry to hear you too had such a difficult time with the 1-0 transition too. It has been so hard when she has been refusing to get in the car, especially when I feel I have needed to get out for my own sanity. I’ve never seen her so defiant to be honest. Just wondering how did you approach it? We had to go to her cousin’s birthday party yesterday and she did get in the car fine, but also my husband was with her. She has always done things for both him and my sister very easily, but for me it can be another story. Not always, but when she does I do think it is her either feeling in a safer place to test the boundaries more with me or trying to communicate something. I do think her just turning 2.5 is playing a part and perhaps I will have to be firmer with the boundaries at some point, but I really want to handle things sensitively, as I can see she is struggling right now with teeth and tiredness. She did really want to go to the party and was very excited so she certainly wasn’t associating the journey with going to sleep. Did you find it just got better in time, perhaps when tiredness was not so prominent? I’m sure it’s not a coincidence that on our first no nap day we had this. I’m thinking of perhaps in time to try a little step which she can climb on to so she feels she is climbing into the car which makes her feel more independent. I did actually something like try this the other day, but she was not in the mood to even consider it. Usually approaches like this work really well with her so I’m just hoping that given time I can try again when she is in a better frame of mind and not so tired. Although you mention that you still have some problems sometimes now, so perhaps this may also still be around for us once we are through this rocky patch – yikees!! I have always felt that we go from one hurdle to another but just hoping that this specific one doesn't follow us - ha ha!! xx
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So I’m just wondering if you have any ideas on how long I should try to make her day on no nap days?
11 hours for us Hun, but there's no guarantee she will pull a super long night until she's ready to go no nap every day :(
I’m finding that depending on what time of day that happens then I decide on what the nap length should be. So 15 mins has been working well if it is after lunch, but a 20 min nap at 3pm the other day really interfered with BT.
I would maybe be wary of drawing conclusions from what happened on one day Hun, although I know that sounds contradictory when I have previously said just see what works. The point I'm trying to make is that OT could have been the reason for it taking her so long to go to sleep that night YK ??? and of course the length of the previous night can make a big difference, it's just so hard with such inconsistency. It was the lack of routine that really dragged me down.
So also I’m wondering, what is the least amount of sleep you have known anyone to give for a nap? Is 5-10 mins enough in some cases to just get through the next few hours of the day? xx
I have know parents who have given a LO a 5 min nap, we never went any shorter than 20 unless he fell asleep in the car when not planned. As a rule of thumb, the earlier the nap the longer you should be able to give.
You're coping really well Hun. Lots of ((HUGS))
x.
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Hi Vicki
Thank you – that’s a really good point about taking each day as it comes as OT has surely been building and is likely to affect her ability to fall asleep at night. This is how the last few days have gone: This is from Monday (following on from my previous post) and is after having a nap day:
Day 1
WU: 7:05 am
BT : 7:20 pm
Night Wake was back to sleep very quickly, but I can’t remember what time it was.
Day 2
WU 6:45 am
BT 7:10 pm
Day 3
WU 5:40 am (was still very tired and was trying to get back to sleep but she couldn’t. She then started to have a meltdown before announcing she could not sleep anymore and we went downstairs at about 6:45).
BT 6:35 pm
Day 4
WU: 6:40 am
S: 11:30 – 11:50
The first two days she did really well during the day, but yesterday was such an awful day with her. She was tired and grumpy. I tried to see if she would have a nap in the afternoon but she wouldn’t. Instead at 4 pm she was crying and screaming because she was so tired. In the end she then became very hyper and we got through dinner and bath time without too many problems. At 6:35 she was laying on the sofa as I was getting her pjamas on and I could see she was about to fall asleep so I cuddled her and carried her up to bed. I fully expected to have bad night or certainly an early wake so the 12 hr sleep was a complete shock but a welcomed surprise! She has never slept for 12 hrs, not even as a baby!
So I’m finding that she is generally taking less time to fall asleep at night but her days are probably too long. I know you mentioned that you kept them to 11 hrs to get a long night. I’ll see how she does tonight after the 20 min sleep which she has had today. So just wondering if there is anything glaringly obvious to you with how I could possibly improve things, although generally it hasn't been that bad really, yesterday was awful in terms of her mood though? I think if I was at home with her today then it could have been hard to get her to take a nap. My sister has taken her out in the car though so that’s how she has fallen asleep today. I’m hoping that she will still continue to be receptive to sofa naps with me at home but we’ll see. It may be that she starts to not start taking naps with me and will only on the days my sister has her which is Mondays and Thursdays. So frustrating that she won’t let me take her out in the car when I can see how tired she is!! Worried this will lead to more meldowns like yesterday!
xx
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Hi Honey, whoop whoop for that 12 hour night. No, there is nothing obvious staring me in the face. During the 1-0 I can honestly say my saving grace was to accept that it was a 'one day at a time' scenario, to be open minded and most of all to accept you can only try offering naps and EBT etc but you can't MAKE a LO sleep, I found this hard as I am a real stresser when sleep is disrupted, but now that Sam is 5 I accept that it always passes and puts itself right, when a LO has been an independent sleeper. I think I said before that this was the worst transition for us. Sam dropped the nap completely for 2 weeks (nap refusal) and then went back to it! Then we were where you are now with some NN days and finally I decided to just stop crying and push on through, all in all probably 3 months or so in total, but it felt like longer!!!
You're doing great. I wish I could give you a solid plan, but there really isn't one. I guess with watching her day by day you can decide if she can make it through a NN day depending on her mood and the night before. Keep the nap length relevant to the time of the nap, OR just say to hell with it and go NN altogether, and see what happens when keeping her day at 11 max.
((HUGS))
x.
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Rachsk8, thanks so much too for your post!! Sorry to hear you too had such a difficult time with the 1-0 transition too. It has been so hard when she has been refusing to get in the car, especially when I feel I have needed to get out for my own sanity. I’ve never seen her so defiant to be honest. Just wondering how did you approach it? We had to go to her cousin’s birthday party yesterday and she did get in the car fine, but also my husband was with her. She has always done things for both him and my sister very easily, but for me it can be another story. Not always, but when she does I do think it is her either feeling in a safer place to test the boundaries more with me or trying to communicate something. I do think her just turning 2.5 is playing a part and perhaps I will have to be firmer with the boundaries at some point, but I really want to handle things sensitively, as I can see she is struggling right now with teeth and tiredness. She did really want to go to the party and was very excited so she certainly wasn’t associating the journey with going to sleep. Did you find it just got better in time, perhaps when tiredness was not so prominent? I’m sure it’s not a coincidence that on our first no nap day we had this. I’m thinking of perhaps in time to try a little step which she can climb on to so she feels she is climbing into the car which makes her feel more independent. I did actually something like try this the other day, but she was not in the mood to even consider it. Usually approaches like this work really well with her so I’m just hoping that given time I can try again when she is in a better frame of mind and not so tired. Although you mention that you still have some problems sometimes now, so perhaps this may also still be around for us once we are through this rocky patch – yikees!! I have always felt that we go from one hurdle to another but just hoping that this specific one doesn't follow us - ha ha!! xx
Hugs Hayleys.... yep, we still do have times of car seat struggles - I'm hoping it will pass soon too as it's wearing me down too!!! I try to be sensitive too, allowing him extra time to "let me know when you're ready" to get into the car seat - but try not to make it a choice either. I do empathise with him that he doesnt want to get in his seat, and I'm sorry he's upset, but it's time to get in and go. Then sit and wait for the approaching meltdown to pass. And it does. :-) As I said, I try to make sure we do something fun most of the time when we go out, so he doesn't think he just goes in the car to go to sleep. But he only sleeps in the car once in a blue moon now, so I'm not sure there is that association on our part?
Yay, great sign that she did a 12hr night - we turned a corner when despite a horrible mood, DS would actually not have NW's all night long from OT but began to STTN! Hopefully this is a turning point for you too.
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Hi!
Thanks ladies!
Unfortunately, we seem to have gone on a downward spiral since that 12 hr night. Ugh!! This is what happened after then:
WU 6:45
S 11:10-11:30
BT 7:30 (asleep at 8:20 pm)
Night wake 1-3 pm. Not sure if this could have been teething as she was very upset and it took her a long time to get back to sleep but also she may have been unable to get back to sleep due to under tiredness perhaps?
After a broken 8 hr sleep she was absolutely shattered!
WU 6:10
S 11-11:25 (slept in the car)
BT 6:45 (asleep at 7:00 pm)
Night wake 7:50, back to sleep very quickly but for a few hours she was in a very light fidgety sleep! She did wake up with a cold too.
WU 5:20 am
S 11-11:20 (in the car)
BT 7:30 (asleep by 7:50)
WU 5:40
My sister had her for the day following that and she had a 20 min sleep in the car between 11:10 -11:30. Not sure if this nap is what has initially thrown us of course but otherwise it would have been her 4th no nap day. I've not known how to deal with these EW's we've been getting. Think I have been making bedtime too late though?
So a lot has gone on in the last few days with the cold (not really bad and usually sleeps well and teething). I just don't know how to get out of this rut now? Was thinking of doing a no nap day with a 6:30 bedtime tonight. I don't want to make bedtime too early as she may only pull a 11 hr night, but think that maybe she needs to not have a nap today unless she does sleep on the sofa. If you see this in time today, what do you think?
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I meant to write that I think she needs a no nap today unless she really can't handle it and falls asleep on the sofa. She is very tired though but think that nap isn't helping perhaps? Also to get to the 12 hr night we had to have a few no nap days and she really struggled the day prior to the 12 hr night. The other thought which is going through my mind is the 12 hr night may have been due to her coming down with the cold as opposed to progress. She does often pull a longer night than usual before she gets a cold. Hard to know though. xx
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Morning Hun,
I am debating 2 ways forward for you now :-\. Offer a 20 minute nap at perhaps 11.30/12.00 either in the car or on the sofa and if she doesn't take it that's it for the day. Set BT at a 12 hour day if she takes the nap and an 11 hour day if she doesn't. The alternative being go no nap now, with an 11 hour day. I just know what it is like after this long when there is no consistency whatsoever. I think at this point her body clock is probably 'shot' and it could be the time to allow it to 'set' to something consistent. How do you feel about this ??? would you agree ??? It won't be easy, but neither is the 'status quo' ::) Recently I am erring more toward a total nap drop TBH, or at least giving it a good shot.
x.
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Hi Vicki
Thank you for your response! Yesterday didn’t go to plan really as she ended up falling asleep on the sofa whilst I was out of the room at 3:40. I let her sleep for 10 minutes, thinking that it probably won’t interfere with bedtime too much but it did.
Here was her EASY:
WU 5:40
S 3:40 – 3:50 pm
BT 7 pm (asleep at 8:40)
WU 6:20 am
S (waiting for my sister to get back to me but will be somewhere between 11:20 and 12 pm)
So at bedtime she looked really tired and was trying so hard to get to sleep. However, she kept saying to me that she could not sleep and in the end she got out of the bed (which she has not done since the very start of having her ‘big bed’) and was wanting to go downstairs. I managed to get her back in the bed by making it interesting with a toy which she could play with until she was ready to sleep and she did eventually settle herself on the bed and fall asleep. However, as you can see she only had a 9hr 40 min night. I’ve just spoken to my sister who is with her today and she said that at 11 am she was so tired and trying to sleep on the carpet, so I told her to take her out in the car for a 20 min nap today.
I personally feel that the way forward right now is to perhaps totally drop the nap as you mentioned. Looking back after she had the 12 hr night last week, I wish I had just not given her a nap the following day as we have been having problems ever since and I wonder if she is now at the point where a nap no matter how short is interfering with her nights. (?) The problem I have is her nights are short right now and she is not going to easily manage a no nap day until they lengthen.
Also I’m not sure that an 11 hr day is realistic for us either if she does a no nap day as there are days when this is not going to work with both myself and my husband being home on time to manage that. Yesterday with a 5:30 am wake up, that would have been a 4:30 pm bedtime and I also just don’t feel brave enough for that! My husband and I were speaking this morning about perhaps trying to fix her bedtime at say 6 pm and completely dropping the nap when we can. I think that if we are able to do this for a few days then perhaps her nights will increase (?)
Do people sometimes just get to the point in the process where they can just fix bedtime? Of course the dilemma is that looking at today then she is unable to not manage a nap so we need to wait for her night to increase slightly first so she can manage that. Not really sure how we are going to get there though? If you see this post in time, what time would you perhaps do bedtime for tonight?
Yikees – feel we have hit a new low!! xx
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Hi Hun,
Did you get my inbox message ???
Honestly all of the problems you have cited are all of the problems we were faced with and so many others, it really is so hard, and I feel for you so much :(. Her BT tonight will depend on if she napped today Hun, if it was what you hoped for and a short nap of less than 30 mins, I would shoot for early still if you can, maybe 6.30 in bed and see what happens. It's so difficult to know if you have overshot it with this transitiion, but I would tend to prefer to go early and then just ride it out until she can sleep, hoping to achieve and long enough night to try for NN from now on. If you do you will find it hard to keep her awake but if you can get through to the point where she gets 2 long nights in a row then it's likely things will improve from there. Once you get to dropping the nap, just get her to bed asap, I understand it's not always easy, you can only do what life will allow you to, nothing more.
Lots of ((HUGS)) hope today is better.x.