BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: angelinagr on January 24, 2015, 16:13:45 pm
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Hi Everyone
This is my first post. So my daughter is 8,5 months old and we have adapted the E.A.S.Y. method since she was 4 months old. She used to sleep incredibly well. She went to sleep around 8pm, we dreamfeed her and woke up somewhere around 6.30 - 7a.m.. It was amazing! During this time she was taking 2 naps (45 minutes) and one longer nap (2 hours) during the day. For the last month her night time sleep has gotten progressively worse. She is currently waking up 5:30-6:00 am and will not go back to sleep.
She doesn't seem to be hungry. She only wants to stand up. Sometimes she wakes up around 2 - 2.30 in the middle of the night, but she falls back asleep.
So the question is, how do I get my good nighttime sleeper back?
Anyone have a similar experience? Any advice?
Should I try waking up her about 4.30a.m. for 3 days?
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Hi and welcome to BW! :)
You certainly can try wake-to-sleep at 4:30am, but I think we should take a look at your daytime routine, as often there can be something in the daytime routine to cause an EW. Can you post your EASY?
You mentioned she stand up when she wakes, is that a new skill? Is she teething or doing anything else developmentally new? Those can be other reasons for EW.
Also, have a look at this link... Early Waking
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Thank you for the reply...
Our EASY looks like this:
WU 6:3-7.000am
E 7:30
A 2.0hrs
S9:00-10.mm
E 11:00
A 1.5 hrs
S 1:00pm-3pm
E 3:00
45 min nap
E 7.00
A 40min
BT by 8
DF 11
I hope that it is a developmental change.... I don't know if it is teething. She has already 2 teeth.
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It looks like she's getting too much daytime sleep and thus she's waking at night or early in the morning. At 8.5mo, she should really be on two naps with an average A time of about 3-3.5hr. I'd start pushing your A times longer by about 10-15min every 3 days and ditch the CN.
A more age-appropriate routine would look something like this...
WU/E 7am
A
S 10-11:30am
E 11:30am
A
S 3-4:30pm
E 4:30pm
A
E 7/7:30pm
BT 7:30/8pm
Or, if you want to keep naps similar to how they are, you could just cut out the CN and bring BT a bit earlier...
WU/E 6:30/7am
A
S 9-10am
E 11am
A
S 1-3pm
E 3pm
A
E 6/6:30pm
S 6:30/7pm
Here are a couple good links for your situation...
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
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Thank you for the response...
I've never thought that she is getting too much daytime sleep!!! I would try the first routine, because I cannot bring the BT earlier...
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Small pop in, hope that Katie wouldn't mind.
Totally agree with her advice and comment about two much sleep during day.
You can work on your current routine but just push the whole routine back.
So she can have two naps (45min and 2h) but both should be slightly later than now so you could ditch the catnap but put her to bed as you usually do. I don't think earlier BT will help as the sleep you take from day will go for night and we know already that that maybe a problem:).
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You can work on your current routine but just push the whole routine back.
So she can have two naps (45min and 2h) but both should be slightly later than now so you could ditch the catnap but put her to bed as you usually do. I don't think earlier BT will help as the sleep you take from day will go for night and we know already that that maybe a problem:).
Oh yes, very good point! :)
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It is a little bit difficult to push the routine back. Except from the naps, should I change also the times of the meals?
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Why you think it's difficult? Maybe let's see how your day looks like so we can propose some routine.
In general until on solid one nap, I think meals times are a bit wonky as naps move and they start to collide with meals:).
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It is difficult to move back the first nap at 9.00 in the morning . Especially when she has woken up at 5.00. Then she is very cranky.
Although I noticed that she is going to have 3-4 new teeth.
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If it's difficult to move the first nap, you can just shorten it firstly. It worked very well at this house:)!
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You could try giving meds in the middle of the night, say 3am, kind of like a dream feed (go in, squeeze in the meds and then help resettle if needed) to see if she sleeps longer in the morning. My DD was a predictable EWer with teeth. :P
I know it's hard to push the A time when they EW, but even if you can do it by 5min every few days, that might help. The problem is, if her body knows it's going back to sleep at 9am, it doesn't have a lot of drive to keep sleeping past and EW, iyswim. Hopefully, it might get a bit better on its own once the teeth are through, but that's just something to keep in mind.
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Thank you for the replies!!!
It seems that we have solved the problem.... I managed to push the first nap at 10 o'clock. I also put her to bed at 3.30 pm and then she sleeps for 2 hours. By this way she is having 1 nap for 40 minutes and 1 nap foe 2 hours. I also change the bedtime at 8.20 pm (30 minutes later). Now she wakes up around 7-7.15!!!
Although she has started to wake up every night around 3 o'clock.
Our EASY looks like this:
WU 7.00-7.15am
E 7:30
A
S9.50-10.30am
E 11:00
A
E 3:00
S 3.30-5.30 pm
E 7.00
A
BT 8.20pm
DF 11
Does she need another nap in order not to wake up in the middle of the night?
I have tried to give her meds or gels for her teeth, but I didn't see any change. She is having 3 new teeth, but during the day she is not complaining or cranky. I think that she wants company....
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Sounds like good progress!
No, she doesn't need another nap. I think the second nap is actually happening too late and that's causing the disrupted night. Could you try something like this...
WU 7/7:15am
Nap 1 10-10:40am
Nap 2 2:40-4:40pm
BT 8/8:15pm
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Yep, thinking the same. You have 5h of A between nap 1 and 2! I would go for earlier second nap so as Katie adviced:
- around 10 for 30/40min
- around 2:30 for 1.5-2h
And with BT not later than 8pm as her day is looong!
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She seems to need to sleep around 2pm,but I I didn't let her.....
Tomorrow I would try it
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Should I stop the DF and give her a bottle before bedtime?
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Does she not currently have a bottle before bed? If not, then yes I'd do that. Or, you can gradually take an ounce from the DF and add it to one of the other bottles during the day until the DF is gone.
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She doesn't have a bottle before bed time. She is having a meal (a yogurt) around 7pm and I put her in bed around 8 - 8.15 pm. Then at 11pm I give her a bottle (DF)
I also change the meds for the teeth (doctor's advice also), but she continues to wake up at night.
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I would offer the yogurt with her dinner and then do a bottle before bed. The DF at this age can actually disrupt their sleep cycles, so you may find she sleeps more soundly without it.
What is her routine looking like now? Is she waking around a consistent time each night? Can you describe what happens at the NW?
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She usually wakes up around 3-3.30pm. She is crying and I put her in bed again. Sometimes it is difficult to fall asleep again.
The DF is actually her dinner. If I stop the DF, I am afraid that she will be hungry during the night or she will wake up earlier than usual. Too many hours since 8pm until 7 am without any food?
Currently she is having 5 meals : 2 bottles (morning and DF), fruits, lunch and yogurt.
Thank you for the responces
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Hi honey, so can you post your routine again?
She definitely should have min 5 meals a day and I would even say more if some of them are just yoghurt or fruits. I also think she should still have at least 3 bottles if she is not eating any cereals on milk. Yoghurt is based on milk but still min of this age is 20/24oz. What Katie is saying is that she definitely needs that milk but some children will happily go 12h between feeds at that age. It usually depends on how much they eat during day. Mine was doing a stretch of 12-12,5h from 6mo and if DF offered he would refuse morning bottle. But we had 4 bottles a day and 3 solid meals from 6/7mo.
Regarding this waking at 3am and our discussion about food - have you considered her being hungry? Have you changed your meals plan when transitioning to 2 naps?
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Our routine is like this now...
WU 7.00-7.15 and one bottle 200ml milk
Nap 9.50-10.40am (I actually wake up her)
E 11.00 am fruits (1 apple, 1 pear, 1 banana and 1 orange) in small pieces approximately 250ml. 3 times the week I give her
E 2.30-3.00pm meat or fish (50-60 gr) with vegetables or pasta, all the meal is 250ml
Nap 3.30-5.00pm or 5.30pm
E 6.45-7.00pm yogurt (200gr)
DF 11.00pm one bottle 280ml milk
I don't think that she is hungry, because in the morning she drinks 150ml milk and after half an hour she drinks the other 50ml (not always). She is actually drinking 580ml milk (20oz)
I am confused if I should push down all the meals in order to stop the DF.
I am waiting for your response...
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Isn't that 480ml? 200 + 280ml? Plus milk in yoghurt of course. Is that a natural yogurt or a sweet one flavored with sugar/fruits?
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Isn't that 480ml? 200 + 280ml?
That's how I read it also. :-\ In full disclosure, I've never FF, but I do think it looks like she's not quite getting enough milk.
E 11.00 am fruits (1 apple, 1 pear, 1 banana and 1 orange) in small pieces approximately 250ml. 3 times the week I give her
Do you mean she only gets this meal 3 times a week? I think she might be hungry if she's not getting a consistent two meals every day. :-\
If it were just a matter of moving the DF, I'd do as I suggested above and give the yogurt after she wakes from the pm nap at 5 or 5:30 (or with the fruits meal at 11am) and then give the other bottle before bed. However, as it stands, I think I might be more inclined to giving the fruits as a breakfast before the morning nap and then a bottle after the nap around 11:30/12.
Have you tried bringing the afternoon nap earlier like we discussed before?
What if you did something like this...
WU/E (FF) 7/7:15am
A (solids of fruit/cereal 8am)
S 10-10:40am
E (FF) 11:30/12pm
A (could offer yogurt snack at 2pm)
S 2:30-4/4:30pm
E (solids of meat/fish/veg)
A
E (FF) 7pm
S 7:30/8pm
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Sorry girls I was wrong....
3 times the week with the fruits I give her vitellus...
And 200+280 = 480ml.....
I've tried to bring the afternoon nap earlier, but I didn't manage to... The earlier I can put her in bed is 3.15pm...
Today I will try to give her a bottle before bed without DF
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3 times the week with the fruits I give her vitellus...
I don't know what that is, sorry! :-\
I've tried to bring the afternoon nap earlier, but I didn't manage to... The earlier I can put her in bed is 3.15pm...
Because she's not tired enough or because you can't due to scheduling reasons?
If the NW is habitually at 3/3:30am, you could always try wake-to-sleep to see if you can get it to go away. How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
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Point from me regarding feeding Honey. If we count 200gr of yoghurt in her daily milk requirement, it may be fine. Why do you offer her milk only 2x a day, she didn't like it? I would support changing feed times so all her food is offered between 7-7, but not by cutting yoghurt.
General comment if you would consider changing feeding routine:
- kiddos at that age will happily drink milk after solids or eat solids after milk even if there is not much time between solids and milk feeds
- it's good to offer fruits as a snack or as a dessert after a savoury meal rather than as a single big meal so not to develop a sweet tooth
- kiddos at that age should drink 18-20oz of milk as an absolute minimum (some countries say even 24oz until 1yo); however at 1yo it drops to 12-14oz as a minimum and all these numbers count also milk used in food (so 125g is I guess an equivalent of 7oz milk bottle)
- at 8.5mo many kiddos would go without a feed or with a small DF/NF 12h at night so definitely bringing DF earlier or decreasing it could be your goal, but not if you have no BT bottle
I would try to alternate plan so ie:
- 7am milk - as much as she wants but 150ml is fine
- 7:30/8am breakfast: cereal with fruits (but not too much) - as much as she wants; or yogurth with fruits
(11:00 am bottle - here usually up to 8/9mo kiddos have a bottle, but around 9mo you could resign from it at all)
- 12:00 lunch (if she is hungry earlier, offer lunch slightly earlier like 11:30 or give her a snack like broccoli or carrots around 10am), great place for meat
- 2:30 bottle or if she refuses some snack (can be yogurth)
- 5pm dinner (I offered usually soem thick soup here as they can be tired at that time so something easy for them to eat)
- 7/7:30 BT bottle (I offer it at 6:30 as we have BT at 7pm)
It's just a suggestion, but squizing more meals into your day could make her eat slightly more. I'm not sure your NW are a result of hunger, but it would be worth to eliminate this reason.
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vitellus is the inside of an egg, the yellow one. I don't know how else to describe it
Around 3.00pm I am back from work and I can put her in bed (scheduling reasons).
Yesterday she was in a bad mood so she didn't eat and I managed to push back all the meals. There was not BF and I gave her a bottle before bed (8.30pm) (280ml). She woke up several times, but not because she was hungry. I gave her a bottle at 6.30am (she woke up 6.15).
Martii85 I will try to give her a bottle after a meal, but I don't think she will drink it.
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Haha Honey - it's called egg yolk:) if you mean this yellow part of an egg:).
Regarding feeding, in the plan I proposed you have at least 2h breaks between meals/milk feeds so she should be happy to eat/drink. Of course there are kiddos who doesn't like this kind of schedule but you may try. The other routine which works for some is spacing feeds 3-4h and but for two middle day feeds offering half of normal milk like 120ml and follow with solids immediately. It helps to fulfill the milk requirements but also allow kiddos to eat solids when hungry.
Let's see what will work for you.
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As you understand my language is not English... Thank you for the information. I have never again come across with the egg yolk....
I would try to give her milk after the lunch in order to get to bed more easily. She usually eats 250ml solid, so I don't know if she drinks it.
I will let you know.
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Don't worry Honey, my native language is Polish not English so we are in the same boat:). And you English is very good!
Waiting for the news how it went!
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And you English is very good!
Yes, very good! :)
I like Marta's feeding plan and while it's great that she takes many and varied solids, I think until she's at the 10-12mo range, I'd still try to keep her within the milk requirements first. Formula is nutrient dense and the type of calories she needs first, while the solids are something to continue transitioning to.
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It is quite difficult to make her to have more meals into the day. The only progress we have made is to drink 30-50ml after lunch. I have stopped the DF and she wakes up at 6.30-7.00am to drink a bottle, but not always all the bottle.
She continues to wake up in the night and she stays up for 2 hours. Although, she has stuffy nose.
Before I put her in bed for the night sleep, I give her a bottle (280ml). She falls asleep while she is drinking it. When I put her in her bed (I hold her in my arms when she is drinking milk), she wakes up and we start from the beginning p.u./p.d..... After an hour I put her in my bed and she finally sleeps....
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Have you ever sleep trained her? It seems like a prop problem rather than a routine/hunger issue.
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I think that you are right. I start to believe that it is a prop problem.
During the day I hold in my arms in order to sleep. When she falls asleep, I put her in her bed.
Before stopping the DF, I put her in the bed and after a while she falls asleep. I was not in her room. But when she cries, I hold her in my arms and I resettle her. It took us about 20 minutes to get sleep. But only in the night sleep I managed to do it. She never sleeps in the stroller or in the car.
What else should I do?
Thank you so much for the replies
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Hi Hon, if she goes to sleep on a bottle or if you hold her to sleep at that age, it definitely can generate a prop.
I would advise you to open a new thread on Props board so you could find some more advice. I am happy to hop there with you if you want.
However with a new thread/new title you may also collect some great advice from our usual posters who will let you know how they beat the prop issue at that age. Would that be fine for you?
I must say that I have sleep trained mine when he was around 4mo, so I have no BTDT advice....:(.
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I'm happy to help here if you'd like... I seem to have done PUPD with all of mine at various ages. :P
I do think getting her to sleep on her own would be quite helpful at this age. You've got a good routine going, so you know when she's ready to go down. There's really not a lot of gradually putting down more and more awake at this point, you kind of just need to go for it. Here's a link on the age modifications for PUPD... How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations) Is she pulling up to standing yet?
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When she opens her eyes, she immediately tries to stand up. Every time I go into her room, because she is crying during the night, I find her standing up. Also during the day the only time she is sitting is the time for the meals.
Thanks for the link. Yesterday I was looking in the book what to do. Now I know!!!! :) :) :) :) :)
I suppose that after a week or so we will manage it?
I will let you know how it goes.
Thank you for the information all that time. In my country the CIO methods are quite popular and I didn't know what to do.....
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She knows how to sit down?
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Of course she knows...Every time she falls down, the exact time she stands up.
Before she learns how to stand up, she was sitting
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:) I am not asking if she is sitting but if she is able to sit down from standing position. Sometimes kiddos can pull up to standing but they don't know how to sit and lie down afterwards so need mummy to do it even in the middle of the night. So if she can sit down from standing that means she will be able to sleep after being in standing position.
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Every new she learns, she wants to do it all the time. When she learned to seat, she didn't want to lay down....
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I suppose that after a week or so we will manage it?
Yes, about a week or two.
Pulling up to stand is one of my least favorite milestones because some LOs just want to keep doing it all the time. :P PD will help her learn she needs to lie down and go to sleep. If she doesn't know how to get herself down, like Marta is talking about, then you can teach her how during the day by putting her in the cot and sliding her hands down the bars. If she's not doing it already, she'll likely learn quickly.
Good luck... do keep us posted and ask any other questions you have. :)
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Yesterday I decided to start PD aw I am not going to work. Last night was terrible. She waked up at 3am, she was standing up and she didn't seem to want to go back to sleep. After 50 minutes of crying, she continued crying being laying down...I continued PU/PD as she was younger, but she didn't stop. She was very frustrated. I have never seen her so infuriated. Finally she fell asleep, during PU/PD in my hands. It took 1,5 hour to fall asleep. I am not sure that I am doing the right thing. Especially when she stopped standing up and she continued crying being laying down. She didn't let me place her back down so she was looking away from me and not at my face.
Also tonight I will try to wake up her at 2am, as I have noticed that she wakes up every night round 3 o'clock.
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Crying is inevitable with any sleep trainings, so yes... Crying is a part of that. But remember that crying doesn't mean that she suffers. It's a way she is communicating with you saying "I don't like it", "it's not the way I am used to" etc. The most important thing is to stay with her when she cries.
I am not quite sure what you mean by her sleeping in your arms... Did you put her up during the process and than put down and she has fallen asleep in one of those cycles or did you stop PUPD and just take her on to your arms?
At this age there is rather no put up in this method. So kiddos pull up to standing, you put them down and that's all. If she lies down but continue crying, you can sit next to her crib and just say some sleep phrase or you can have your hand on her (with then you will gradually withdraw) or anything else what makes her know that you are not abandoning her but just teaching her how to go back to sleep without mummy's hand.
Does it make sense?
I am sure it can be very hard to hear her crying but if you finally let her sleep in her arms it may send a message to her that if she cries loudly and long enough she will get what she wants. So if you are so strong and decide for PUPD and already survive such a long crying, try to stick to it till the end. It should help with a next night. As every single time she will demand less attention.
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During the process put down she has fallen asleep in one of those cycles not actually in my arms. She didn't manage to sleep the morning. She actually didn't have the morning nap. We went for a walk now and she fell asleep in the stroller... I decided to move her from the stroller and put her in her crib. The moment I placed her in the crib, she waked up....
So when she cries laying down, I don't use PU/PD just talk to her.
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Yes:) as in the link Katie posted is stated:
8 MONTHS TO A YEAR - At this age you really don’t do any pick up as babies 8 months and up tend to soothe faster in the crib.
• You wait for them to stand up or pull up and then you place them back down so they are looking away from you and not at your face.
• If you feel they are truly frantic and need more you can pick them up for a moment but you put them straight back down.
• At this age it’s important to use your voice even more. Your baby will start to recognize what you are saying, eg. “I’m not leaving you, you’re not alone, it’s nap time” etc.
• At this age you may need to pair pu/pd with gradual leaving of the room. First you stay in the room until asleep, then move a few feet from the crib, in a few days you move to the door, then out the door.
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Yesterday she didn't sleep early in the morning. After her lunch and after 50minutes crying she managed to fall asleep. During the afternoon we had an accident and we had to wake up her every 1,5 hour and she slept beside me. Today she slept in the morning after 30 minutes crying for 1 hour. Although after her lunch she didn't sleep. She was crying for 1,5 hour. I stopped trying. It was almost 5 pm and it was almost time to give her yogurt.What should I do? I think that by this way she may lost her naps.
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We have made progress. For 2 nights in the row she didn't wake up. Although yesterday she woke up at 2.30am and she stayed awake for 2.5 hours....I don't know what else to do.
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She has stopped crying when I put her in her bed, but it takes her about 30-40minutes to fall asleep. Sometimes it takes her 1.5 hour to fall asleep and it is time for her meal. By this way she is loosing her morning nap. I am afraid that she is not sleeping enough
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Sleep training usually bring some OT into your day and it's inevitable. But let's hope that she will get the message quickly. It's better to go with it now when she still has two naps than when she will be on one nap.
Are you persistent with the same settling method for naps, resettling and NWs?
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Of course I am doing exactly the same things for naps, resettling and NWs. Now she is having 1 nap only for 45minutes. She is almost 10 months and I think that she is not sleeping enough. We are now the 6th day of training (last Wednesday we started)
OT stands for?
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OT stands for over tiredness.
I am quite sure she is OT and probably your yesterday night wakings is because of OT.
Can you post your routine honey so we make sure there are no tweaks needed? 1.5h to settle for a nap without crying is a lot and seems a bit undertired to me.
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Hang in there, hon... it does sound like she's gotten OT. Let's take a look at your routine, like Marta suggested and see what we can do. I'm always a fan of working hard for one nap and doing a quick catch-up in the stroller or car if needed to help prevent OT at bedtime. (((Hugs)))
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6.30-7.00 am she wakes up - bottle
9.30am first yawn so I put her in her bed. 3 days now she didn't manage to fall asleep. we tried for 1 hour. Before starting PU/PD she used to sleep for 40 minutes
10.45 fruits
1.30-2.00 pm lunch
2.30 pm I put her in her bed and we try for 30-40 minutes. When she finally falls asleep, she sleeps for 45 minutes. Before she was sleeping for 1.5-2 hours
5.30 meal
8.00pm bottle-bath-bedtime
she must be very tired to fall asleep in the stroller or the car....
I am waiting for your responses
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And she's how old, 9.5-10mo?
Even though she's overall OT, I think the first A time is not long enough for her to get herself to sleep. It's only 2.5-3hr, whereas the average for her age is 3.5-4. I would push the morning nap later, so you're putting her down at 10, rather than 9:30.
If she doesn't sleep in the morning, then it's best to try for another nap sooner than you normally would to prevent the short, OT nap that's happening. I'd try again after an hr or so, at 11:30/12. If I remember right, you might be restricted on timings though, is that right?
Finally, with such little daytime sleep, it would be best to bring bedtime earlier again to try to prevent her going to sleep too OT. I'd try for no more than a 12hr day, but if that isn't possible, just put her down as early as you can.
More (((hugs)))... hope that helps.
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Totally agree with Katie. What I recall, with some AP they always go to sleep easier for naps. I remember when F was 3mo and I ditched a soother, his catnap disappeared! And I couldn't get it, but it's just how it works with slightly undertired naps.
So I agree with Katie to push first A. What I would try is maybe firstly 3h or 3.5h as many kiddos like shorter A in the mornings. And if you don't succeed I I go as Katie stated for another nap at 11:30 or so. So just after fruits.
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On 6th March she will become 10months. I 'll try everything you tell me.... I am disappointed as I understand tat she is not sleeping enough, although our nights are fantastic!!! Only 2 times she wakes. I usually find her standing up and I just lay her down and she falls asleep.
For how long should I try?
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I follow your advice and today she slept after fruits at 12 o'clock. I haven't wake up her yet. I am thinking to let her sleep... I am afraid to wake up her as I am sure that she will not sleep any more during the day. I thought that if I wake up her after 45 minutes, she will not fall asleep later.
I have also started giving her cereals at 8.30am. Although she doesn't eat them every day.
Is it time for the transition from2 naps to 1 nap?
Tomorrow I will try to put her in bed at 10.00am and no at 9.30am. For how long should I try?
Since she was born, she didn't sleep a lot. Εven in the first days she was born in the hospital (in my country we labor in hospitals and we stay in the hospital for 4-5 days), she didn't sleep many hours.
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Let's see how today will go?
And how was the settling for this nap?
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She slept for 2 hours until 2.10 pm. I thought that she might not need any more sleep. Although round 5 pm she started yawing. We were not at home, so she didn't sleep. At 7 o'clock she was ready to fall asleep in the car, but I didn't let her to sleep as it was close to bedtime.
The settling for the nap was quite easy. It took her less than 15 minutes and she cried a little. I suppose that is right....
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Yes that's great Hon:)! Nice long sleep she probably is catching up for lost sleep in last days.
10mo would be a bit early for one nap in my opinion however 1-nap days here and there won't harm.
You have to judge by yourself when to put her down to get two naps. At that age we were doing out first one nap days but we didn't settle on one nap routine until now, haha:).
What about routine as follows (please change if you have a different WU):
7am WU
11:00 nap for 1.5
12:30 WU from a nap
15:30/16:00 nap for 30min
7:00/7:30 BT (or 8 the latest if her second nap is longer/later)
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I agree. ^^^
Just to add another option, if you'd rather try for the shorter morning nap (which may be more difficult as she's just learning IS), it could look like this...
WU 7am
Nap 1 10-10:30am
Nap 2 1:30-3/3:30pm
BT 7/7:30pm
So glad she did a nice, long nap today... hope you got a good night too! :)
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We had a terrible night!! She was awake 2.00-4.30 am.... I didn't know what to do. The moment she fell asleep, she was starting to cry without any particular reason. I will try the two naps for a week. I believe that we are still learning how to sleep and I can not understand what she actually needs/wants. I am afraid to put her earlier in the evening ...
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Definitely I should do something wrong, otherwise I can not explain my failure. She didn't manage to get sleep neither at 10.00am either after the fruits. During her lunch she was eating having her eyes closed. Every time I Tried to put her in her bed, she waked. After the lunch we tried for 30 minutes, but she didn't fall asleep. Finally she fell asleep in the stroller.....
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Oh no, so many (((hugs))). It sounds like either OT or discomfort. Do you see any teeth working their way through? It could also be regression from the sleep training, that's not uncommon during the first week.
I am afraid to put her earlier in the evening ...
That's understandable, it's hard to do for the first time, but it really does help when her day sleep is off. I've used an early bedtime with all three of mine during nap transitions, as it helps stave off the OT. They will often sleep til normal wake-up, making up for the lost daytime sleep. And even if they don't, they still will have had more/better sleep overnight and we are then able to continue on the next day rather than trying to still play catch up. Does that make sense?
The first time I tried EBT with my DD, I was also nervous... she was about 14/15mo and had only slept 1h15min. I put her down at 6:15pm rather than 7 and she slept til 6:45 the next morning. It was great and I've been sold ever since. My DS2 is the same as Marta's DS and has just transitioned to one nap (it's still a little rocky, TBH) and when he only sleeps 1-1.5hr for that nap, I put him to bed earlier, so he's not quite so OT. Hope that helps!
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In this house with a crappy nap we usually go for catnap instead of EBT but it's mainly because catnaps work for us. DS never refuses BT, and usually sleeps well with a catnap so I don't fight. But I know EBT works for many so it's worth a try!
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No new teeth are working their way. I will continue the sleep training for another 2 weeks. Today I will put her to bed earlier.
Definitely she is overtired not only because she hasn't sleep enough today and last night also, but also she is trying to walk by herself....
Thank you for the responses :-*
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I am exhausted and desperate!!! She continues to wake up during the night (3-4 times) and she stays awake for 2.5-3hours. I tried to give her water, milk, herbs, tea but she didn't want. She didn't seem to be discomfort. I don't know what else to do! During the day she sleeps for 1-1,5 hour. I put her down earlier without any difference.
She sleeps for 8-9 hours every day (included day and night sleep).
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She is definitely OT honey. Can you post your routine right now?
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6.30-7 wake up and 1 bottle
10.30-11.10 sleep
3.10-4.30 sleep
8.10 bedtime
I don't manage every time to put her down before the fruits (11.00 am), so then she sleeps at 12.00 (after the fruits)
Sometimes I think that she is not tired enough that's why she wakes during the night.
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She has 13h day, sleeps 2h on 2 naps and is 10mo... I would say that unless she is low sleep needs, it's rather OT than UT. When she goes to sleep at 12 after fruits, is she sleeping once during day?
I would go for her being OT and would try to make her day shorter. However with her nap ending at 4:30 and being 1:30 it maybe difficult to put her down at 7pm. Have you tried EBT? Mine would easily go for it as he was just tired after a long day but many kiddos don't. In that case to bring BT earlier I would either shorten the morning nap and bring pm nap earlier or go for long morning nap routine around 11:30 (longest nap after longest A) and than a catnap around 4 for 30min. 7pm BT should be achievable in both cases.
How do you feel with what I wrote?
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When she sleeps after fruits, she doesn't sleep any more during the day. It takes her too much time to settle down herself.
I understand that she is OT. If I put her earlier to bed, she will wake up at 5.00-5.30....That was the first reason I addressed to you. When she wakes at 5.-5.30, she is not in the mood for more sleep. She maybe doesn't want to play or do anything else, but certainly she doesn't want to sleep.
Last night I put her in bed at 7.45. She woke up once during the night and in the morning she wakes at 5.50...
Today I'll put her in bed at 7.30, tomorrow at 7.15
I agree with everything you say and recommend me...
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Oh Honey, I am very sorry for you. I know that can be exhausting to get up before 6am constantly. But it will pass, earlier or later.
And now regarding her sleep. You did have EMW when started this thread but they were for sure UT (too much day sleep, 3 naps, 3h+ daytime sleep). Now you have a different story Hon, as she is OT. So maybe it's worth to try EBT on days she didn't sleep much or had 1 nap day. I am not promising it will solve all your problems, but it's worth trying if she is a kiddo who is catching up on lost sleep.
Reading your post and looking for a starting point... From 3 naps you went to one on some days.
During this time she was taking 2 naps (45 minutes) and one longer nap (2 hours) during the day.
From sleeping 10.5-11h at night and 3.5h during day (around 14h per 24h), now she is getting 8-9h according to what you wrote.
That's why I would think of:
1. Trying tomake sure she is getting 2 naps a day... everyday for now. I remember my DS when 10mo and really he needed couple of days on 2 naps to recover after one day on one nap. If you are mixing days with 2 and 1 nap, it will be difficult to catch up for her. Aim for 13.5h total sleep per 24h as she was getting 14h quite recently and it was fine for her.
2. 13.5-14h per 24h means that if she did 2 naps (total 2h) aim for 12h day as a maximum. If she did more like 2.5 or 3h, than you can work on a longer day.
3. One nap days at that age are very risky in my opinion as they can sleep 2h per day and still be very OT after 12h day as too long shots of A is really a challenge for them. So if you just have a day with 2h nap (only one however) I would aim for even shorter day than 12h like 11.5. Even if she wakes at 5:30/6:00 next day, she should have better night and be able to survive next day.
What do you think Honey?
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I totally agree with you. I understand that babies should not have very long day. The only reason I read the book (here in my country is not popular and there is no translation for it) is because the writer recommends to put babies early in bed. That's also why I first wrote to the forum. All the advices I received are to put her later in bed.
It is not exhausted for me to get up early as long as we have a quite night.
I try to make sure that she is getting 2 naps during the day. My only problem is that when it is time to have her nap, it takes her to long to settle down herself and it finally comes time for her meal. This usually happens in the morning before fruits....
Today she slept for 1 hour (9.30-10.30am). I woke her up and now she is sleeping again (2.30pm....)
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This long settling makes me interested... How long does it take for her to settle? It's not normal to settle longer than 15min if you are sleep training her for week or more right now and her routine is good. Is this problem with settling valid for all two naps and BT? Can you post your morning routine in very detail? Is her WU predictable right now? Can you think of setting time for a morning nap? I would also think of moving fruits to a better timing, so you are not stopping the settling process.
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It usually takes her about 25-30 minutes especially in the morning. I train her for 13 days.... The morning nap is the problem. After her lunch (2.00-2.30) it is quite easy for her to sleep. Bedtime is my favorite. I just lay her down and she sleeps.
She usually gets up around 6.30 and I change her diaper.
7.00am I give her a bottle (220ml) and she plays alone for 25 minutes, while I am talking to her and cooking. She is in her playpen
8.15am my mother arrives and she gives her some cereals, we start playing.
Around 8.30am she starts yawning and I put her in bed at 9.30-9.45am. All this time we play. I don't know what else to do.If it takes to much time to settle herself down, I put her in the stroller. She has stopped crying when I put her in bed, but she continues to stand up so I have to put her down.
I am afraid there is no other time for the fruits during the day. I don't want to give her fruits close to bedtime.
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Ok honey, she is for sure UT here. Looking at A times, 8-10 months is 3-4h and some kiddos like the longest A in the morning
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
Regarding fruits and generally feeding times... At that age you should be much more flexible and play with her feeding times as naps are changing and moving though the day so you cannot force them to eat when they want to sleep and the opposite. I would be tempted to squeeze fruits earlier before the nap. How long does she need to eat them? You may offer them at 9:30 or 10:00 at put her down around 10:30. If she is not interested you may move the whole breakfast to 9/9:30 and mix fruits with cereals. Would that be an option?
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it usually takes her 15 minutes to eat the fruits. It depends on her mood. I know that I should be more flexible with the feedings.
I will try to give her fruits before nap. But I am not sure that she will be hungry to eat them.
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I agree with all Marta has been advising you, hon. At this age, your E times really should be quite fluid and able to work around her naps rather than fitting the naps in around the E. The consistency and appropriateness of the sleep times become more important at this age than the E. As long as they're being fed regularly and at times to ensure they aren't getting hungry while sleeping, the E can move to where you need it to go.
A good example of this is when all three of my kids have first moved to one nap... the nap often starts at around 11:30 for awhile and that is right when lunch typically is. So, for a few months we break lunch up and do part of it before the nap and part afterward. Hope that makes sense.
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They usually self regulate Honey. It means that if they miss one meal here or eat less, they will take more on the next one. Just make sure you offer her something at least every 3h and it will be fine:) she will not starve! With fruits it's quite easy as they are sweet and may be served as a top-up after some savoury meal. Kiddos will refuse more soup/lunch but could happily eat some fruits. Hope that makes sense:).
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So much thank you for the responses. Today I gave her the fruits at 10.15am. She slept at 10.45 and it took her 11 minutes to settle herself. Although the night was difficult.
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Very good news:) 11 minutes seems a normal time to settle!
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I am confused. The A time counts since the time she wakes? ?For example she sleeps at 10.30am for 45 minutes, the A time (3-4 hours) counts from 10.30 or 11.15?
After her lunch she slept for 1.45h and it took her 12 minutes to settle down herself!!! I thought that it was a miracle!!!!
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Wow, great news!! ;D It sounds like you're definitely on the right track with the new A times. A time counts from when they wake to when they sleep. So, after the morning nap, you'd count from 11:15 to whenever she fell asleep. If she fell asleep at 3pm, the A time would be 3h45min (from 11:15-3pm). Make sense?
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It makes sense to me. So I count since the time she wakes.
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Yep :)
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Happy for you Honey. A times means awake time so you count it from the moment they wake so in this case 11:15. So if she wakes at 7am and you put her at 10:30 and she settles at 10:45, her A time is 3:45. Settling is also a part of A. When you put her at 9:30 as you did counting from 7am wakeup. Even with "normal settling" time it means her A was 2:45 which is a bit short for a 8-10mo.
And now regarding routine and your naps. It's great that she did settle nicely and didn't fight long nap. Hopefully she is catching up for lost sleep.
Posted before Katie but post was somehow added later...:) sorry!
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Now we have managed with the naps, but she started to waked up during the night (usually 2 times) and she finally wakes up around 5.30-5.45 the morning. I have tried to settle her down again, but she is totally awake. I thought that she was hungry, but she is not. She is sleeping now 1 hour in the morning and 1,5 hour after the lunch. I put her in bed 7.30pm.
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So she probably sleeps slightly to much. As her morning nap is shorter I would try to wake her from it. Start at 45' and if after couple of days it's not enough, try at 30'. You may have to bring afternoon nap a tad earlier but maybe it won't be a problem. I would also start pushing morning nap a little so you push and cap at the same time. It should help with EW.
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I don't know what else to do. She continues to wake up during the night about 3-4 times. Now she doesn't wake specific time. The only thing that I have noticed is that she wakes around 1 am (after 5 hours of sleep). She usually wakes up about 6-7 am and she is having a nap at 10 am for 45-60minutes. If she doesn't wake up in an hour, I wake up her. The next nap is at 3.30pm for 1-1,5hour. I don't let her sleep after 5pm. I put her in bed at 8pm.
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Can you remind us how old she is? Is she getting any teeth? Is she now going down independently for all sleeps?
And, her EASY looks like this?
WU 6-7am
Nap 1 10-10:45/11am
Nap 2 3:30-4:30/5pm
BT 8pm
Marta suggested to start cutting the morning nap a bit in her previous post... I think that's probably the way to go. Or, if it works better for you, you could start letting her sleep a longer nap in the morning and start making the afternoon one shorter. I'm just thinking that the late nap may be interfering with her nights. :-\
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She is now 10,5 months and she is completely independent for all sleeps. Her EASY is like you wrote. I will cut her morning nap a bit, but especially in the morning she seems tired. It will be more easily for me to cut her afternoon nap. Although in the afternoon she is very cranky and I am afraid to cut her afternoon nap. I have increased her milk and now she is drinking 540ml.
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When is she tired honey?
With my son there is no difference frankly speaking:) if he slept 45min or 1.5h - we will be happy after any nap. But probably after shorter nap he will become cranky quicker.
If he is very cranky after morning WU I would go for a strategy with putting him down at first nap as you do, but shorten it. If his first a is fine, you may push it to get a decent nap and than push afternoon A and allow a shorter nap.
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I wonder if she's cranky in the afternoon because she's got that long A time in between the morning nap and the afternoon one. And, she's probably tired in the morning due to the short night. If it's easier to cut the afternoon nap, then I would go that route. What about pushing the morning nap out to 10:30/45 and letting her sleep 1.5-2hr, then doing an afternoon CN from 4-4:30 (or 4:30-5) and bedtime at 7:30 (maybe 8, but I think if her day is starting before 7am, an 8pm bedtime might be too late)?
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I think that I can not push the first nap. She is seemed to be tired and she is pulling her ears, hair and she is rubbing her eyes. She is starting to yawing at 9 am.
I will try to cut the afternoon nap. For a week I will also try to put her earlier in bed.
On Sunday there will be a change in the hour. How I will adjust my program ion the new hour?
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Ok, so let her nap at 10 for as long as she wants for a few days and let her catch up, but then you will likely need to start pushing it later, otherwise she might start EWing or continue NWing as that's not really all that long of an A time for her. :-\
When the clocks change, you can either keep the later WU and nap times, or gradually wake her earlier through the week until you're back at your original WU. It's up to you!