BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: first time mum molesey on February 18, 2015, 05:56:54 am
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At 10 months DS had bronchiolitis which threw out his good sleep, for 4 weeks he was up for a soliid 2-3hours every night. We tried everything, DF, EBT, Pupd but nothing really had any affect, he just stopped doing it one night.. This slowly improved and occasionally he would sleep through til 6.30, last thurs being the last time. For the last 5 nights now he's gone back to waking for 2-3 hrs a night. This time though its accompanied by hysterical crying as soon as he wakes up which is usually 1.30-2am. He then gets frustrated as he can't seem to get back to sleep, needing a cuddle just to stop him from crying and get back to sleep. He's never really been much of a crier before but now even during the day he's starting to throw serious tantrums and get really miserable. He really is no fun to be with anymore.
Tonight we have had the worst night ever. He went to bed at 6.30 and then woke at 9.30pm not settling until midnight, up again at 2am for half an hour and then awake from 4.30am and still not settled at 6am.
Any tips before I start to cry?
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((Hugs)) Any chance he's coming down with something?
If you're sure he's not ill, can you post his current EAS for us to have a look at. Also, what do you do when he wakes?
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Thanks :).
He hasn't any other symptoms at all but of course it could always be teething, he's only got his bottom two and the top two have just broken through. I just don't know on that point.
As for his easy he was a textbook baby, we started at 9 weeks and by 11 weeks he was on the routine and has stuck with it since, we dropped the second afternoon nap and have started to reduce the morning nap, although I'm not sure whether to reinstate the full 2 hour morning nap as he's sleeping so little at night and obviously OT during the day which we're trying to counter with EBT at 6.30 instead of 7pm but this appears to be making no difference.
7am wake up and bottle
8.15 breakfast
10-11 nap
12 lunch
1-3 nap
5.45 dinner
6.30 bottle and bed by this time
He's at nursery 3 days a week when his napping is out of sorts, sometimes he has only an hour but he is always happy and it has never affected his night time sleep before but recently as soon as we get him home he is miserable and crying because he is tired so we try and put him to bed asap those nights but its still not much before 6.30pm due to the time we get back.
He doesn't need settling at bed time or at nap time we just put him down and he goes to sleep but in the night its become a different story. He wants to be held and we do rock him to sleep, mind you I tried this for 45 mins earlier and it did t work, we got up at 6.15 and started the day early. I have tried keeping him in the cot and shushing an drubbing his head but he always ends up crying again.
Hope that this info is useful. Thanks
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Sounds like teething could be playing a part, particularly as long wakings for us were always UT or discomfort. Are you medicating at night for the possible teething pain, it can be a lot more uncomfortable for them at night time as the pressure increases as they lie down, and if I'm feeling a bit under the weather, it's ways worse for me at night.
I don't think it is. Routine thing, as this looks reasonably good at the moment. I would try giving some meds before bed and then perhaps in the middle of the night (as a dream feed can stop ge waking) or if that doesn't work give some as soon as he wakes and see how you get on.
Hugs
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With meds we do usually give them as soon as he wakes just in case he is in pain although sometimes im not convinced he is we just do it to cover all bases.
So last night was better, he woke at 1 but I got him to sleep by 2.20 so all in all a good night. Tonight though is even worse than the other night. He woke at 10pm just as we were trying to get to sleep and now at 2am is still awake. Hes been crying every time we've put him down, crying hysterically. We've even tried having him in our bed which we never do but hes having none of it.
We're all shattered and me and OH have no idea what to do with him.
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He eventually fell asleep on me at 3.15am and I put him in his cot where he stayed til I woke him up at 7.30am. He was quite delightful this morning. Up for 5 hrs at night though? Something must be wrong, what should I do?
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Honey, I'm sorry you had another rough night. I'm not able to provide a long response for now but will be back later, and also will ask to see if anyone is around who can help advise now.
Hugs xx
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Hello Sweetie, lots of ((HUGS)) I'm so sorry for you both. Do you think it would be worth taking him to see the Doctor just in case this is a pain/discomfort issue with something you're unable to pick up on ??? I think I would, it can't do any harm. I'd check his temperature regularly too Sweetie. How are his bowel movements ??? couldn't be tummy related could it ???
Vicki.x.
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Thanks for the hugs they do really help :)
I think I will take him to the Dr, it will have to be Monday now but at least if he has really bad nights over the weekend I've a little more to tell the Dr about, I think its a bit hard when you turn up with a happy looking, seemingly well child who has no other symptoms other than bad sleeping. My drs are very good but I do understand its probably very hard for them to diagnose something in those circumstances.
I actually had a nurse appt for his jabs the morning after our first bad night, the nurse listened to the story, took his temperature and put it down to teething.
Thanks for the support, fingers crossed for tonight and that we all have a better night.
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My drs are very good but I do understand its probably very hard for them to diagnose something in those circumstances.
I agree Hun, but I always plough on through with vigour when it's DS, better safe than sorry. I never let them make me feel like a fussy Mammy, make sure you milk it! I hope tonight is better Sweetie, I really feel for you. Let us know how he goes, here with lots of ((HUGS)) x.
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Adding to the hugs.
Just to ask what you're giving him for the teeth (if we're going with the teeth theory for now!) because paracetamol did NOTHING for teeth in our house. Ibuprofen worked like a charm though. It targets the swelling as well so is more effective. Just in case that might help.
Hoping you get a good night.
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Just to ask what you're giving him for the teeth (if we're going with the teeth theory for now!) because paracetamol did NOTHING for teeth in our house. Ibuprofen worked like a charm though.
Sam here Anne, good point. Also a pillow under DS mattress head to raise it helped a lot.
Hope you get a Docs appt tomorrow Honey, let us know how things are.
((HUGS))
x.
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Last night he was up 1-4am, tonight its been 2.30-4.30am.
We've tried nurofen and calpol but I can't say either of them have any affect although we continue to give them as soon as he wakes.
It's been 9 long nights of this now, I dread nightimes now. I dont anticipate the drs are going to find anything and it doesn't seem like there is anything I can do to help this situation improve.
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Oh gosh Hun, that is so rough :( There HAS to be a reason and IS a reason. Will give it more thought and ask for more eyes Sweetie. Are you giving him the long nap again in the morning ??? if this is not teething/illness related then I'm trying to figure out if it started out as UT or OT. For sure he's OT now.
Is it all possible that this started out as UT ??? With 3 hours day sleep his day has been only 11.5 long (presuming he is asleep at 6.30 ish as you say he goes straight away) So just wondering if that could be the answer :-\
((HUGS))
x.
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Just rereading the above and with reference to his temperature and bowels both seem to be normal, as is his appetite. I'll stick to nurofen from now on and try the pillow under the mattress.
When this happened before, end Nov, it carried on for 4 weeks, then one night he just slept through and looking back I don't think anything helped, he just got over it.
I have been trying different morning nap times although largely keeping the afternoon nap the same, 1-3pm. Yesterday we tried 30 mins am, 1 hour pm. Today we've dropped his am nap completely but will stick with the 2 hr pm to see if that has any affect.
I'm finding this morning nap hard to judge, he's been really happy during the last few days so although I assume he is OT there's no signs. I know hes the age when we reduce these so im foccussing on that although i know maybe he could do with the extra sleep, what do you suggest?
The 6.30pm bedtime is def working better though, no more miserable bedtimes now that we were having for a couple of weeks.
As for him being UT when this started, maybe that's a possibility but he's at nursery 3 days a week and on avg has only 1 hr to 1.5 hrs sleep those days and that has never impacted, positively or negatively on his night time sleep and he's been there since he was 9 months old. His bedtime used to be 7.30pm before this so he was getting a little less sleep during the night before.
If there's any more info that I can provide to help assess this then let me know.
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Okay Hun, so as his 3 nursery days have less daytime sleep I think you judged BT well, especially if it was previously messy. WRT cutting the am nap I would certainly shift the 2nd nap forward to around midday so you can allow for a longer one if he sleeps on, maybe capping at 2.5. I do worry a little that it may be another tweak too soon, but in order to get results you may have to stick with it for a few days to see where it gets you. Good luck Hun.x.
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So, over three weeks on and DS is still not sleeping well. We've cut the morning nap completly (although he often falls asleep on me around 10am in which case I let him have 10-15mins as he's obviously tired).we did have a week where the sleep was better and he was making it through to 6am and I thought we may have been getting somewhere but he has reverted back to waking up for a couple of hours in the night although now we don't have to hold him constantly but we do have to sit by the cot until he falls asleep again.
I just don't know what else to do to encouragement him to sleep better. Every night is just a different sleepless version of the night before. I just want him to sleep better so we can start to enjoy the days better instead of simply just trying to get through them as best we can. He hasn't slept properly since he was 10 months and now he's almost 14, when will this phase end? What else can I do?
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Sorry to hear things are no better, what is your EAS looking like then (with and without the morning CN)?
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Here it is;
Wake anytime from 6.15-6.45am, bottle
8.15am breakfast
10am CN around this time in car, pram, on me. I cap this at 15 mins.
12pm lunch
1-3pm nap
3pm, half beaker of milk and banana
5.15pm dinner
5.45pm play followed by bath, bottle at 6.20pm
6.30pm bed
He seems to be happy with this routine and goes to sleep at nap time and bed time without a fuss.
Thanks
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Is he still waking lots at night or is he sleeping well now? If he's sleeping well at night then this routine looks pretty good to me. What do you think?
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He's still waking every night and staying awake for a couple of hours. When he wakes he cries, we give him a cuddle and he settles down and is happy to be put back n his cot. He lies there for a while, has a cry now and then but on the whole is quiet. If we leave the room though he starts to cry again so we are left to sit in his room and wait for him to fall asleep which takes at least an hour and a half. This week he's been waking 3-5am, tonight he woke at 12.45pm so I assume I will be up til around 2.45am...
I have no idea what I can do to improve this, I just want him to sleep through. If you have any ideas pls let me know.
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This sort of night time behaviour is normally because of one of three things:
1. Teething;
2. Routine change needed; or
3. Developmental disruption.
If there is any sign of teething, have you tried medicating for the discomfort to see if it makes any difference. Do you raise the head end of the cot/bed a little to stop the blood pooling and adding pressure in his head? If you can rule out teething then we look at the routine.
It is possible that those 10 mins in the morning are leaving him a bit UT - the long nap finishing at 3pm may just be a little late with a 6.30 BT and he might be waking UT. Is he resisting BT at all? You could try shifting BT 15 mins later to see if it helps.
But the developmental thing could be playing a part too. There isn't anything we can do to rule this out, is he learning anything new at the moment? Developmental stuff is often just a case of riding it out. As you've been doing this for a while already, let's see if something else helps, what about using a sleepy training method for his NWs rather than sitting with him? Has he previously settled on his own or have you always stayed with him until he's asleep?
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We give nurofen every night as soon as we go into him. We raised the mattress a few weeks ago.
He doesn't resist BT at all, I tried a 7pm BT tonight, no luck of course, he woke even earlier tonight , at 11.30pm and is still awake now, 3 hrs later.
I would say we still need to keep in the catnap, he gets really miserable and then its a real effort to wake him so i assume he is very tired. He always sleeps the full 1-3pm but should I try and cut this though?
He took his first steps the other week so yes I assume it could be developmental. I can handle riding it out for a week or two at a time but this has pretty much been constant for months now. I swear I've given up on ever feeling less than exhausted! Its so hard with working as well. I do feel pretty much alone with this problem among my friends as all their kids the same age sttn til 7am...I'm desperate just for him to make it past the first part of the night. They all have their probs i know but only ever for a few days at a time, never anything where they are up for this long every night over such a length of time.
He's really good at BT and nap times at going to sleep by himself, during the night times we used to rock him to sleep. Now he will fall asleep eventually in his cot. If you can suggest anything else I can try that would be great.
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Just dropping by!! This must be so hard to deal with!
I have zero answers for you but one suggestion. Instead of giving him pain medicine when he wakes up, could you sneak in and give it to him around like 11, like a dream feed? That way it has time to be working in his system?
Also, I know this may be a dirty name around here but Dr. Ferber has a book that addresses many sleep issues like night terrors, maybe you could borrow it from a library?
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Lots of Mums here have found other books such as Ferber's useful for tackling specific sleep issues, so not an issue to mention :). However as I'm sure you are aware we can't and don't support his stance on CIO so would just caution you to take any advice and consider it in the light of the BW ethos of respecting your LO and supporting them through difficult sleep issues.
Just a thought re the routine - I know you are getting a good 2h nap but to me it seems late in the day given LO is pretty young. For comparison with a similar WU and BT with my DD at that age we would be having an 11.30/45 nap. I wonder if although sleep totals are good, LO is very OT from the long morning and that is perpetuating the struggles at night? I might try dropping the CN altogether but bringing nap earlier say 11.30/12 and see if that helps x
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Thanks for the advice on the book, I'll see if I can find that and yes, I take the point about CIO, we do try to avoid that.
I'll try the suggestion about bringing the nap forward, that makes sense. I'll give him his lunch early today then and try the nap 12-2pm.
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Are you waking from the nap? I'd let him go up to 3h if he will for now xx
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Please know that I'm not recommending CIO. Dr. Ferber does have other advice. Just suggesting to look into it. I have read most of his book (though, years ago before I had kids, for child development class so I don't remember anything specific) but it covers a large range of sleep issues for children from infant to teenagers.
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Absolutely hun :-* wasn't suggesting for a moment you were. Many other sleep books have some excellent and detailed information in them, thank you for being willing to help :) :)
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Thanks for your suggestions, the earlier nap time didn't help though. Nothing is working. I've got the contact details of a sleep therapist so I'm going to try that route now.
Thanks for your input and support though.
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Good luck hun, please do come back to us any time even if you just want a hand to hold and some support. Bear in mind not all sleep therapists use methods that would be compatible with BW so do your research carefully and don't ignore your instincts if you are not happy with any of the suggestions they make xxx
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I hope they are able to help! Sending good vibes!!
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Good luck hun, please do come back to us any time even if you just want a hand to hold and some support.
My thoughts exactly.x.
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Good luck, I agree with ^^ this. ((Hugs))
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We have been in similar situation since DD was 10 months old, for months I couldn't work out what was causing her lengthy NWs ( they weren't every night but up to 50% of the time) and we too gave her meds thinking it was teething related.And went to the Dr only to be told it was 'sleep hygiene' issue.
But I just couldn't understand- and still can't- why she couldn't go back to sleep for 2-4 hrs.
In the end I figured it out- its always down to OT. We still get long NWs but not as frequently.
So may be its the same in your case? We came close to turning to a sleep training specialist too. Things you do to try make them sleep better :( but yes, OT is what's been causing night chaos here,I know too well about having to go to work on no sleep and surviving rather than enjoying the day :(
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Maria, well done on figuring your little princess out Honey, and welcome :) Thanks for posting.x.
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Hi,
Just thought I'd check in again. Ive tried contacting the sleep therapist but im not getting any response.
Maria14 how long did this last for with your LO and what did you do to encourage better sleep? What did you do to help you cope with this?
If this is all down to developmental issues then can anyone give me any idea of how long this may last? Last week we had 6 nights of getting through to 6am but we appear to be back to waking every night again now for at least 2 hrs. Apart from those 6 nights its been every night over 10 long, long weeks now and I'm not sure I can cope anymore.
All his other little friends sleep well til 7am. No one else I speak to has experience of this sort of sleep issues. I feel so alone in this problem, all anyone ever says is its teething and its a phase but its so hard to do this over such a long period.
Any advice appreciated.
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Oh dear :( ((hugs))
Can you remind us how old he is now and what his current daytime routine is looking like?
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Hello Sweetie,
I'm so sorry things are still going wonky :(. I remember you cut the cat nap, can you tell us the current routine as Katherine said, I'm wondering whether you're still capping the nap at 2 hours, or if you're letting him sleep up to 3 hours as Katherine previously suggested?
((HUGS))
x.
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He's just turned 15 months.
Nothing seemed to be working with changing the routine so I just kept it the same.
7am wake and bottle
12pm lunch
1-3pm nap
5pm dinner
7pm bottle and bed by 7.15
Mid morning cat naps if he takes them are capped at 15mins
Generally the pm nap is capped at 2hrs but yesterday he slept for an extra half hour
Sometimes after a bad night he will wake at 6am, other times 7.30am.
Oh and the last few days have seen him develop some separation anxiety so I now have to rock him to sleep at nap and bedtimes to avoid hysterical crying.
At nights he is not happy unless he is lying on one of us. We try to put him beside us in the bed but he just climbs up on top of my OH. It's only when he is truly asleep some two hrs later that I can move him back to his cot.
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Routine looks textbook really, I'm wondering if this is a sleep training issue now ??? Ladies what do you think?
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I agree Katherine, it does a bit like he has become dependent on you and your DH to sleep. Do you feel ready to tackle some sleep training to get him into his cot for all sleeps?
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Definitely. What do you suggest?
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Can you have a read of this thread, I think gradual withdrawal might suit you, but let us know what you think and we can work on a plan together :)
((Hugs))
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Sorry, was there meant to be a link there or am I missing it?
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Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)
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::) Sorry, and thanks Katherine :)
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DD is now 27 months and our sleep issues haven't gone away :(
We still have periods of good nights and bad nights.
She very easily gets OT as beginning to refuse the nap all together and then has a bad night that then leads to more bad nights but then we have a good couple of weeks,so we swing I and out like that.
When we've had a few bad nights I find it hard to cope- sleep deprivation is the hardest thing.
And it doesn't look like DD will snap out of this any time soon.
I really do understand how hard it is :( especially when everyone else's toddlers have long outgrown their sleeping issues and all sleep ok now..
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We still have periods of good and bad nights too and DD is now 3.5 years old. I think the patches of bad just get a bit more predictable (half birthdays and growth spurts mainly).
How're you getting on?
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Hi, well I've tried the gradual withdrawal over two bedtimes and one night time waking. I've gone for leaving him in the cot and sitting right by the bed as a first step, reaching in to him when he cries. The two bedtimes have been long. Tonight, after an hour I left the room he cried a bit then settled quite quickly. I'll see how I get on with this for a few more days than move away from the cot a little. The issue in the night wakings isn't really getting him back to sleep its how long he stays awake, always a minimum of 2 hrs...hopefully though this will make life a little easier getting him to sleep by himself in the evening though and I can get back a bit of time then.
I'll let you know how I get on.
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Hi Hun,
Well done, you've made a really good start :) I do think that self settling could really help the night wakings as obviously it is a skill, so finger's crossed the more he gets the idea, the shorter they will get.
Hang in there! ((HUGS)) x.
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Thanks. :).
Maria14, Its really good to know I'm not alone but I do hope its gets better for you. That's a long time you've been coping with the sleepless nights for, I feel for you i really do. Sometimes when I'm feeling OK after a good night I try and reason that its only sleep, its not like I'm in pain but there is a world of difference between the good days, when anything seems possible and the bad days which are the opposite. Sleep shouldn't make so much difference but it does!
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Sleep is everything! If you think about how lack of us affects us as adults, you can try and draw strength in being determined to continue with fixing it for our LO's, if you know what I mean? ::)
x.