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SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: Jojo290615 on December 23, 2015, 10:34:36 am
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Hi everyone
I'm new to this forum and I really need some help!
Ever since my baby was a newborn I have followed the EASY routine ... And it went really well! We had a 3 hour routine.
Since around 3/4 months my little boy has been having really short naps .. 30 minutes and if we are very lucky 40mins. This started when I started putting him down in his cot in the bedroom for his naps.
So I found it very hard to follow the EASY routine .. As his wake time was only around 1,5 hours !
At night he slept through most of the time, waking up around 5:30... Which is early but i was fine with it as he slept from around 6:30pm until 5:30 with a dream feed at 10:00.
Then the 4 month sleep regression hit us, development leaps and a bad cold :( and so he started waking up in the night around 3:00 and then around 4:30 .. To start his day off. ! 😴😴😴
This has been on and off since then up to now ! Sometimes if we are lucky he will sleep until 5:00 ... But since last week he has hit the stormy period of leap 5 .. He is desperately trying to crawl ! So right now he wakes up at 3:00 , we feed him .. Sometimes it takes us about 45 minutes to get him back to sleep ! Then he wakes at 4:45 for the day ! Most of the times he needs to poo!
To top it off he still only sleeps for 30 mins ! And could easily eat every 4 hours ..since last week his appetite has gone down .. And is no longer interested in weaning .. So I'm leaving it until after Christmas.
this is what our routine looks like
5:00: wakes up
500 -6:30 /7:00 play time
7:00: nap for 30mins sometimes 45 mins
7:45 breakfast - (porridge followed by milk)
8:00 get ready and play time
10:00 nap for 30 mins
1030-12:00 play time
12:00 ( a few spoons of solids .. Milk)
12:30/13:00 nap for 30 mins
13:30 play time
15:00/15:30 milk
15:30 /16:00 nap time 30 mins
16:30 -17:30 play
17:30 wind down and BT routine
18:30 asleep
22:00 dream feed ...
So as you can see 4 naps but not much sleep ! and very hard to follow the EASY routine :( I'm sure he could easily go 4 hours between bottles ! So a four hour routine .. But that means a wake time of 3,5 hours !
When he is not in a leap he can self settle at bedtime most of the time but sometimes needs extra cuddles .. And even in the night I hear him awake sometimes and then manages to get himself to sleep again.
For his naps it another story .. He doesn't self sloth for his naps ... So normally I let him wind down in his bouncer and I bounce him to sleep and then put him in his cot. Not ideal I know .. But at the moment it's the only thing that gets him to sleep with out fuss ... As he really fights the naps and then he gets overtired...
When he wakes from his naps he doesn't cry .. And seems happy and content. I have tried leaving him in his cot when he wakes .. But the he gets irritable and sleepy but it's impossible to get him to sleep ! So I find it easier to get him up and let him play ..
He has lots of play time on his mat and in his jumperoo or with me:)
Could someone help me get back on track with a routine ? And stop these night waknings and early morning waknings ?
Also when he becomes more interested in solids .. Where would that fit in to a routine ? Before his milk ?
Thanks in advance :)
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Hello and welcome to BW forums :)
Sounds like you just need some help to get back on track.
At 6 months the guidance A time is around 3hrs and the chances are once you move up to this things are going to start to get a bit easier. Your LO is likely UT (under tired) which I personally find even more difficult than OT (over tired).
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
Your LO is likely to look and act tired much earlier than this because he is in the habit of getting a nap on a much shorter A time, I'd advice to stretch the A time as much as you can. We usually suggest to go in 15 min increments over several days rather than all in one go but tbh the A looks so short at 2hrs that I would not go too slowly on increasing the A otherwise you could be getting closer to 7 months and still playing catch up on A times. I would likely go directly to 2hr 30 min, hold for a 2 days then increase to 2hr 45, hold another 2 days then increase to 3hrs. Depending on your LO you might need more than this or the A times through the day may vary a little, these are tweaks you can make later on once it becomes clearer what is the most suitable.
During this routine change you might like to use W2S (wake to sleep) to help you LO transition from one sleep cycle to another. This is not considered a prop as it goes in cycles (do it 3 days then hold off for a day to see what happens, begin to use again if he needs another cycle or two) and also because it is a training method, teaching him that he is to sleep longer than 30/45 mins.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Use your usual soothing method in the cot if it is shush/pat or a stroking or a firm hand, you can even rock him in the cot using a firm hand and jiggle it slightly as this will produce something similar to the bounce he likes but he will remain in the cot feeling the weight of his body on the mattress (very different from being in arms). That's not to say you can't pick him up at all, you can, if the W2S doesn't get him through and he fully wakes and needs a cuddle pick up and do what you can to get him to resettle and back to sleep.
Depending on your family situation and how much energy you have you might like to focus on improving one nap for now, and leave the others until later, this can still be hard work but usually less tiring than tackling all naps in one go. If you choose to focus on one nap it really needs to be the same nap each day to build a habit, I suggest the first nap of the day (so increase A time and use W2S or resettle to teach him to sleep longer). Of course it is fine to tackle them all if you prefer.
Once the day sleep improves you may see a natural improvement to night sleep, lets see how it goes. It may be possible to work on shifting the entire routine later so later BT and later WU but this is perhaps something to look at after his A times are more age appropriate. It's hard to get an UT LO to sleep and to stay asleep.
Whilst all this is going on pleas record your EAS times. You will need to track E and S separately if you are aiming to E at 4hr intervals, it is kind of possible to do that if you watch out for time clashes and just adapt to bring E a bit earlier here and there to avoid it coming during S, or to let him go slightly over if it would be near the end of nap time. Some times solids introduction means the milk E extends to more like 5 hrs but it depends on the LO and how they take to solids.
For re-introducing solids I would aim to offer about 1hr after a milk feed once or twice per day (breakfast and/or lunch), keep all milk in place.
I also wanted to say, don't worry too much about helping him through this phase. It's clear you know when he needs extra cuddles, this difficulty you are having is most likely related to development and UT routine rather than props, he is likely to manage to self settle again once he is back on track. The bouncing BTW, I always bounced/rocked my LO as part of wind down he was self settling at about 8 wks or under and I did the 'rocking' thing inside the cot if needed. Don't feel too bad about it!
Well, quite a lot there for you to wade through.
I hope this helps, and do shout out if you need further support. It may be a little more quiet than usual around here over Xmas but there will still likely be someone around if you need help.
Please update in a few days so we can see how things are going - good luck.
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Wow thanks !!
I will start to stretch his awake time and then aim for 3 hours after the holidays and hopefully he will be over his leap ... And we will be able to get back on track again !
Merry Xmas !!
xxx
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Merry Xmas to you and your family too. Hope you have a good one even if naps are rubbish!
x
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Hi
I hope you had a great Xmas :)
Here is a bit of an update of the EMW and short naps
There doesn't seem to be much improvement so far ... I have extended my lb A time up to 2,5 hours, I have also tried extending naps with the W2sleep ... Hasn't worked :'(
Here is our new routine , I have been keeping a log of
Wake up betwwen 4:30/ 4:45... rocked to sleep in arms 5:30
Wake up for the day :6:00
Eat 6:15
Solids 7:30 porridge
Sleep:8:25-8:50 tried wake to sleep didn't work .. Yawning when up ... Left 10 minutes in cot to resettle
Eat: 10:00
Sleep: 11:30-12:00 tried to W2S 20 mins after .. Didn't work .. Tried resettle by rocking .. Didn't work .
13:00 Milk
14:45 -15:30 sleep
17:30 Bt routine
18:15 sleep
DF 22:00
This has been the roughly the same routine .. Give or take 30 /45 mins
In between eating and sleeping he has plenty of playtime etc..
He has been settling well at bedtime and in the night .. He is teething so we have been up a few times with him... But the waking up at 4.. And after 30 mins is habit :(
How can I get the w2sleep to work ? I go in 10 minutes before he wakes up .. I stroke his cheek or jiggle the bed so his eyes open for a second and he goes back ...
The sssh pat method doesn't work with my lo... It stimulates him more .. So does the PUPD.. So I try to resettle in bouncer or in arms ...
What else can I do ?
Should the W2S work straight away ?
Thanks again :)
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When he has those short naps are you able to pick him up to make him go back to sleep in arms? Will he sleep longer if you do this or does he just want out of bed altogether?
In the crib, have you tried seeing him through the short nap Wu by helping him transition with rocking? I see shush/pat isn't liked but perhaps if you put a firm hand on him and rock side to side you might re-create a movement similar to the bouncer (I'm not familiar with what a bouncer is but my DS's hammock bounced if he kicked his legs, I was able to give him a jiggle with a firm hand both in there and in the crib), you can continue for 20 mins to get him back into deep sleep after the sleep cycle transition.
At this point any extending of the nap is useful to get him used to the idea of sleeping longer even if he cannot manage this on his own.
Honestly, it is early for me to judge why the W2S is not working at all, I would expect some success even if it meant you seeing him right he way through to deep sleep. It could however be that he needs a longer A time, 3hrs, if you have been on 2hr 30/45 for a few days I suggest increase again.
You can also try to resettle all the way up to the end of the nap time, this tells him that it is still sleep time, so he sleep say 30 mins, his nap ought to be 1hr 30. Tracy gives us example in her book of keeping LO in the crib or bedroom trying to resettle until almost the end of the nap time, that's a hour of you trying to settle him. We usually suggest stopping at 45 mins as E time approaches and LO might be more hungry a bit sooner due to having been awake that time rather than sleeping.
Following the expected nap time Tracy would keep LO awake until the next planned nap. This means you count the A time from when the nap should have ended rather than counting from when LO woke up - in effect this is set nap times for several days to put in place a routine. We often don't go all-out like that on the forums because it can be really hard work, LO can get OT and it can be exhausting for parents especially if you have no back up - however it really does work to get a routine in place. So, if you are up for it this is also an option. For this you would set naps and stick to those times even if LO did not sleep, if he fell asleep near the end of nap time you would wake him up when the nap was supposed to end even if he is super tried and cranky, and you would keep him up until the next nap time (or only put down a little earlier). EG:
WU 6
A 3hr
S 9 - 10.30 (he wakes 9.45 but you continue to try to resettle until 10.30, if he nods off at 10 you wake him at 10.30)
A 3hr (in reality this is longer if you cannot resettle at 9.45 then A is really 9.45-1.30 meaning 3hr 45 or longer)
S 1.30 - 3.00 (if he doesn't sleep at 1.30 this makes A time even longer)
A 3hr
BT 6.00
So there are options, but it is also up to you what you feel comfortable with. In all options you stay with your child or return as soon as he cries/calls for you so there is no breaking of your bond of trust and no high cortisol levels. He may well kick off about being told to go back to sleep but you will be supporting him through this and eventually the tiredness is so much that he really will sleep when offered the chance.
What do you think?
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Hi creations, reading this post with interest and wondering whether it's something I should try with my LO (I have another post going, but no reply for a while with the holidays - perhaps you wouldn't mind having a look?). He is prop (boob) dependent though - could this 'override' the routine? i,e. Even if I stretch activity time to 3 hrs he still wakes up after 45 min (he resettles with nursng and falls back asleep)?
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Hi again
Thank you so much for reply and your advice ! I have had some great improvement with the naps since your last post.. Hopefully this will gradually make night time better too :)
He is teething at the moment and it does seem to be that waking him up ... And making him unsettled.
I realise now that I wasn't seeing him far enough into the cycle transition ... I was doing it for 10 minutes and thought he wasn't tired.. But I really gave it go and took him through all the way .. For 20 to 30 minutes and it worked !!!! Yayyyy even had to wake him up ! :)
And the second day the W2S worked for the first nap and kind of for the second nap.. Just had to jiggle his sleepyhead nest and it worked a treat !!!!!
Yes Sorry his bouncer is the babybjorn bouncer ..like a rocker I guess and it also bounces or rocks when he kicks his feet on it :) so I always use that for naps wind down time. And when he is really difficult to put down at night ... But this has only happened a couple of times.
Here is my routine log :
28 Dec
Rough nite ... Teething :(
Woke at 12:00, 3:00 4:00
Took him to bed 4:30 until 6:45 ... Settled him 3 times by just jiggling him in bed next to me
Milk at 7:00
Tired at 8:15, slept until 8:45
Settled in my arms until 9:15 slept until 9:45
Milk at 10:00
Solids at 11:45
Sleep at 12:30 wake at 13:00 ... Settled in arms to 13:15 back in crib and slept until 14:00 had to wake him :)
As 14:00 to 18:00 was a long A time, and he had had a bad night ... He had. A nap at 16:00 until 16:30
Bedtime and milk 18:15
Sleep 18:45
Didn't dreamfeed him that night as it felt that we were waking him more, as he is teething he is more unsettled .. And we needed an early night :) but he was Quite wakeful until midnight ... So fed him at midnight he went back until 5:30... Could have been a bit earlier .. But we didnt hear him .. He was chatting happily to himself so we left him in his crib until 5:45 when we heard him pooing :(
Did hear him few times from midnight until 5:30... But he settled by himself.
29 Dec
WU:5:30
E: 6:00 milk Porridge at 7:15
S: 8:00 ... Slept until 9:20 !!! Woke up happy and chatty so I left him there until 9:30...
E: 10:00 Milk Solids: 11:15 ( just tasting really)
Sleep: 12:25 -14:00!! Yayy
Put him in his bouncer to wind down around 12:15 ...yawned a few times so I picked him up and put him in cot .. Fussed a bit then I jiggled his sleepyhead to rock him and he fell asleep .. No crying ... nothing 😀
Started to stir a little around 12:55 in a light sleep. went in jiggled /rocked him a little in his sleepyhead...
Fell back to sleep again no fuss ! Woke up at 13:50!! Left him in his cot until 14:00
E: 14:00 Milk Solids at 16:45
S: 16:00- 16:30
BT: 18:15 and milk
Sleep at 18:50
Just until he manages to increase completely until 3 hours awake time and his waking up at 6:00 gets better .. Is it ok for him to catnap at 16:00-16:30. He gets quite crabby around 17:00 and without that catnap he will not be happy at all 😄 it's also a time that I take him for a walk and he always sleeps in the pram.
I will aim for bedtime to be around 18:30.
Will this extra catnap disturb his night sleep in anyway ? Or confuse his 1:30 naps ?
That means his naps would total 3 ,5 hours .
Also just wondering what I could do when there is something that is likely to disturb his routine .. Being out or he will start swimming soon .. This will be at 13:00 and out of the house at 12:30 ...
Thanks again for your advice and help ! I'm so pleased with the outcome. Obviously this is early days but I will stick to it :) DS is quite an easy baby and does adapt quite easily to routines so I'm hoping that this will be the solution :)
xxx
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Yay! :)
Things really are looking up!
It's ok to CN if he needs it. I might be tempted to increase the A times, get 2 good naps and just drop it though, unless you need it for another reason. You can also shorten the CN if you feel it interrupts with the night sleep, so just let him nod off for 20 mins or 10 etc as he gets older or as naps become stable.
Swimming - this just always gets in the way IMO! Swimming is exhausting, LOs tend to be super tired (need a much shorter A) and super hungry directly after swimming. In addition the classes always seem to fall exactly when you don't want them (ie nap time) so you have to do an early short nap and then another nap later. For some it messes with just one day and they get back on track the following day (try to make it a home day if you can or organise going out around naps so he doesn't have another disturbed day) but for some I have seen routines disturbed for several day and only getting back on track towards the end of the week, and then the swim class comes up again. If yours turns out to be the latter I'd suggest changing the daily routine for every day of the week to work with what is needed on a swim day, the predictability is probably more important than having the exact right A times and nap length.
I bet he enjoys the swimming though :)
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Yep he loves swimming :) and I agree all these kind of activities seem to fall on his nap time ! But I'll get to that bit when the time comes, he is good at adapting fast to routines dk hopefully he'll be back on track the next day :)
We are doing quite well , we are almost on 3 hours between naps ... The wake to sleep doesn't really work for him.. So we are extending his naps by rocking him .. Sometimes in the crib but mostly in the arms at the moment..
he has stopped waking up so early ... The last two days he has woken up at 5:30.. We leave him to babble in his cot as long as possible .. But often he has to poo almost as soon as he wakes up !
I have noticed today that he was still quite tired when I got him up .. But it was 5:45 and didn't seem worth trying to get him back.
I do find it quite tough to keep him awake and entertained before his first nap... He seems tired after just one hour of getting up .. Is this because he so used to getting his nap early ?
Will he gradually get used to these 3 hours before his first nap ?
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Did you try going in during the nap and just readying yourself to being rocking in the crib as he transitions? It can often be easier to get LO back to sleep before they are fully awake, if he regularly wakes at a consistent time you can just go in 5-10 mins before this to get ready.
At this age LOs can appear tired for various reasons, if they have slept well they may yawn or appear tired after morning WU (do you ever feel dopey in the morning even though you slept well? (do you remember sleeping well??) I know if I have a lie in so have more sleep I feel more tired when I get up). They can also show sleepy signals when they are bored, changing activity can help.
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Funny enough I tried it today ! :) but right now his naps are varying between 30 and 40 and 45 mins ... So today I was on the watch out and as soon as he stirred I was there to help him through the transition. He cried when he realised I wasn't picking him up... But I put my arm and hand on his tummy .. So his face was snuggled against my arm but without picking him up and rocked his nest with the other hand and it worked Yayy !! He calmed down almost immediately, closed his eyes and was in a light sleep for about 15 minutes then he slept for an extra 40 minutes !!
I was so pleased !!
Yes I know what you mean with getting to much sleep ... Even though it does seem a distant memory :)
Well I'll carry on as I'm doing :) something seems to be working :)
Thanks again for all your help and advice ! :)))
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That's great progress it really is!!
Although it might seem like a lot of time and effort, and possibly a very uncomfortable position for you to make him feel snuggled (and rocked) whilst he is still in his crib it is a huge step for him, there is such a difference for him to go back to sleep laying down rather than in arms, this is a big step towards independence.
I'd say continue like that a couple of days if you can, this is teaching him so much, and then see if you can reduce just a little tiny bit how much you help. So it might be to begin with the full-on help (arm and hand and rocking) but when he begins to calm you might lessen the rocking just a little, either a slower/less y rocky rocking speed or by intermittent rocking (stop for say 1 second then rock as usual for 3-4 seconds then stop for 1 second), there's no fixed rule on how to do this, I'm just describing how you might take small steps in reduction of help which works towards self settling skills. An intermittent rocking for instance is still rhythmical and soothing but as the days go by you have a way to reduce and reduce.
As things progress you might want to post your EAS times again to see how things are going and if any tweaks might be suggested.
You're doing great!
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Hi again !
I have started reducing the rocking for the maps transition and also when DS needs settling and it's going really well.
We also put him down awake and drowsy and settle him in there and that's also working:) I no longer pick him up if he fusses and no more rocking in the arms !
I just had a few questions ...
How long will it roughly take for him to be able transition by himelf ?
Just before his 30 minutes wake up I go in and start settling him .. He still "wakes" up .. Then goes into a very light sleep and this happens most of the time quite fast.. And he will be remain in this light sleep for almost 30 mins.. So during this time I just stand near by? Is this the right thing to do ?
We are still having the 4 o clock wake ups and he has allot of trouble getting ack to sleep again. This night I heard him fuss around 3:45 and he settled himself back but woke up again at 4;00 .. I left him to fuss and babble then went in when he started to cry .. And he was very upset ! Normally I would pick him up but I stuck to it and settled him in the crib...because I knew it would take longer to rock him and also probably wouldn't be able to put him down again. He finally fell asleep around 4:45 until 5:45 when he started pooing.
We moved him to his room on Sunday ... This has gone really well and sleep very well in there .. Except the 4:00 wake up..
How long will it take for the daily to impact the night waknings ? Or is there something else I can do ?
Here is our EAS we have been following:
WU: 5:45... Try to leave him until 6:00 if he hasn't pooed
E: 6:00
S: 8:45/9:00
E:10:00 or 10:30 depending if he sleeps the full 1:30
S:13:00 or 1:30
E: 14:00 or 14:30.
CN:20 minutes around 16:00
BT: 18:30/18:45
DF: 22:00
He normally does sleep 1:30 for his naps but a few times has woken up a bit earlier or after 1 hour. This is of course after helping him through the transition.
Is there any tweaking I could do ? Or just be patient for the routine to settle and impact the night waknings.
Thanks !
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Good to hear things are going well :)
How long will it roughly take for him to be able transition by himelf ?
Just before his 30 minutes wake up I go in and start settling him .. He still "wakes" up .. Then goes into a very light sleep and this happens most of the time quite fast.. And he will be remain in this light sleep for almost 30 mins.. So during this time I just stand near by? Is this the right thing to do ?
Yes, you're doing great. If you are going in every day for the 30 min wake up then I suggest on one of the days you just observe without beginning the settling. Usually with W2S you use it for days 1,2,3 then hold off day 4 to observe and see him he can self settle (if not then you can help but he will have fully woken on this day so the nap may not go so well), if he did not self settle day 4 then begin W2S again days 5,6,7 and hold off day 8. If he does self settle on the observation day then that's it, success :) You can stop going in to W2S.
He still "wakes" up ..
This is very normal. Adults wake up several times per night at the sleep cycle end when we transition to another cycle, it happens and we don't even remember it but this is the time in the night we turn over (or listen out to check all is well). LOs do still wake up but will self settle and go back to sleep when they are independent sleepers. Sounds like you are there, or almost there. At the put down for nap do your usual wind down and put him in, settle in the cot and see if you can stop the settling just before he is asleep, be there and start up again if you are needed but just try to stop a little sooner. It's ok to do a bit of stop-start.
We are still having the 4 o clock wake ups and he has allot of trouble getting ack to sleep again.
If you can face it you can do a W2S at around 3am or 3.30am and see if it changes things. Of course if he is pooing in the night there is not much you can do other than ride it out. Sometimes altering feed times can alter poo times, have you started solids? There might be something there which could be changed but it doesn't always solve night poos. As they get older their body does work out to poo in the day instead.
Is he getting close to 7 months now or more like 6.5 months? I mean, there is a chance that cutting the CN out could help with the day sleep and the NW, but you would really need both naps to be a suitable length to drop the CN, bit of a catch 22 there. You could extend the first 2 A times by say 10 mins and see if that helps him to transition alone and extend the nap to a proper 1.5 to 2hrs which would help you skip the CN and do an earlier BT instead. There's a chance that his second nap is short because he knows a CN is coming later.
I'd try the observation on W2S and perhaps try a 10 min A increase and see if it helps over the next few days. Then if you get 2 good naps drop the CN and bring BT earlier (no more than 3 hrs A)
hth
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Hi
Thank you so much for your reply :)
Actually the day I wrote to you I had a bit of a breakthrough :)
For the morning nap .. I went in as usual and waited to transition lo through to next cycle... He woke up as he normally does .. And it seemed that this time he was actually stimulated by my presence... And the nap didn't go very well. So for the next nap I didn't go in to him and he slept for 1:30!!! Yayy !
And the next day he did the same for both naps..!
Yesterday I did the same and he woke up after 30 mins !... But I let him be and he fussed a bit for about 15 mins .. Then he fell asleep by himself. So success there too ! The afternoon nap he woke up but didn't manage to get back by himself. I went in after 15 mins and helped him out and he fell asleep, and it only took a few minutes :) and yesterday he also slept through the 1:30 for his morning nap . so there is great improvement !
Is this the right thing to do .. Let him try and get back by himself and then help him out when he starts to fuss louder ? Because even if I start settling him before he wakes up after 30 mins ... He will still wake up most of the time ..and the wake to sleep doesn't work with him.
He has also been waking up at 5:00 instead of 3:30/4:00 !so that's also an improvement .. It's still early but if he goes to bed at 6:00pm that's 11 hours , so I can't ask much more of him bless him :)
I don't think he wakes up because he needs to poo because he will do it sometimes 10 mins after. But what I have been doing is that when he wakes at 5:00 , then poos.. I go in change him .. Keep it very low key, turn the light off and put him back down in his bed. He is not upset so i leave him for a little while until he gets fussier and fussier. Then I say good morning and so on :) ... Is this right ? Or is there anything else I could do?
I don't really know how I could change his milk feeds ... His last bottle is at 22:00 for his dream feed. And yes I am giving him breakfast and lunch as solids. And since solids he has been pooing 3 times a day !! Whereas before it was only once:) but he has always been an early morning pooer hehe
So when he wakes at 5:00 , I put him down for his nap minimum 8:30 until 10:00... Don't feel I can push it forward more if he is awake at 5:00.. Bit afraid he will get overtired ..
What do you think ?
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Sounds like you are doing brilliantly!
The day of observation (during W2S) I mentioned in my previous post is pretty much what you have done, it is to discover if LO self settles or not and you have worked out that he does - great!
Really, it sounds like everything is going very well and you are handling it all wonderfully :) Go Mummy!
The afternoon nap he woke up but didn't manage to get back by himself. I went in after 15 mins and helped him out and he fell asleep, and it only took a few minutes
Not sure what A times you are working with right now but this could be an indication that he may need a few mins more A before that nap. He has now shown he can self settle and transition from one cycle to another so where there comes a time when he is tired and trying to get back to sleep, and where you helping him a little does lead to sleep then this might be just a touch UT for the nap.
So when he wakes at 5:00 , I put him down for his nap minimum 8:30 until 10:00... Don't feel I can push it forward more if he is awake at 5:00.. Bit afraid he will get overtired ..
What do you think ?
As I say, you are doing great! If you wanted to try to move the day on by an hour to result in more of a 6am WU with 7pm BT then you can approach it like the daylight savings clock change which many of us going through each year. Move everything 15 mins, including meals, for 1-2 days then move everything again another 15 mins. Over the course of a week you should reach the new routine. I found it helpful to write the whole plan down or I would forget where we were up to. This is purely optional of course, you might be happy with the 5am WU as you are getting Y time from 6pm each day and perhaps you can go to bed early yourself to make up for the early morning.
You only posted a couple of weeks ago - just look at how far you and your DS have come! :D
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Hi !
Just wanted to give you a quick update :)
Things are going really good ... Lo now wakes around 5:30... Naps at 9:00 and then again 14:00 both naps last 1,5 hours yay !!
There are some odd occasions where he will wake during his nap and not go back.. Or wake in the night .. But i don't expect him to be perfect :)
There is one issue we are having at the moment .. But I guess it's just a phase.. The dreaded rolling over in sleep phase :( he is very close to crawling .. And at the moment gets very grumpy and frustrated that he can't !:(
Any miracles to fix this. ? Lol !
He sleeps in a sleepyhead grand and our house is warm so doesn't wear a sleeping bag.some suggest tucking it in at the bottom of the mattress ..
I'm just a bit concerned that with this that it will undo some of the self settling as I go into him when he gets stuck and upset and settle him back to sleep in his crib. Whereas in to now he was doing great by himself... And sometimes gets really upset so we pick him up to comfort him.
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Wow, it really does sound like you are all doing marvellously :)
Ah, crawling and rolling, yes these are often sleep disturbances. Fortunately it's just a phase and will pass, eventually.
No miracle cure I'm afraid but the more time you can let him spend on the floor during his A time the better. Some LOs get heaps of floor time anyway but some are in 'things' which prevent them moving for much of the day, between bouncer seats, car seats, the shopping trolley, the high chair, sling and stroller they can end up with little floor time. It's something to just consider. The more time he spends on the floor during A time the more practise he gets so he'll either learn that skill a bit sooner (stops disturbing sleep, yay!) or he will feel he's had enough practise during A and not need to keep on doing it during S time (yay!). Even so, sometimes they dream these skills which is part of the learning process and end up putting their dreams into action so you can't always stop this stuff.
Good news, even if you help him lots during the times he needs you (now with the rolling or when he is ill, teething etc, there are no end of these things coming!), the chances are he will return to independent sleep just as soon as he is able to. LO who are independent sleepers generally only ask for help when it's needed and just go right back to their self settling routine when the phase is over. If not, it will likely only need a little nudge in the right direction for the self settling to return. Your mind will always be half on the 'prop' alert which will naturally lead to you doing as much as needed and not getting carried away with it, and do remember the more you respond to his call for attention the greater the trust, greater the confidence and the less he ends up needing you.
So, just keep on supporting him through his tricky times and you'll be fine :)
Are you sticking with the 5.30am start then?
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Ah thanks for reassuring me :)
I calculated today roughly in general, lo gets around 5 or 6 hours of floor time a day :) and at least 70 percent of that time he wants to be on his tummy he he. He is no longer interested in being on his back. So we alternate between sitting and tummy time. Then he will climb and jump on me when he gets fed up :) also peek a boo never gets old ! Hehe
I feel so sorry for him .. He gets so frustrated so I also spend a lot of time on the floor encouraging him, with toys ... Remote controls seem to really motivate him:)
Yes we are sticking with the 5:30 wake up for the mo . I usually leave him in bed for a little while anyway, he is happy to chat away for a bit . So I feed him around 6:00. This was before he started rolling over in his bed though.
Right now we kind of look forward to our time in the evenings, so we will look into bringing the routine forward when this phase is over, he is also teething again.
Thanks again for everything ! :)
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You're very welcome :)
it's lovely to hear things are going so well - even through the tricky times.
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Hi there ! :)
Just a quick update and need of some more advice :)
So my lo is now crawling :) well a belly crawl but he is a lot less frustrated during the day. For the night we put him a light sleeping bag and tuck in the tail into the mattress, he now sleeps through again Yayyy. He can still roll over as he does in the morning when he is awake but it just stops him from doing it automatically in his sleep. We do the same for his naps and it's working really well :)
I would love some advice on how to stop his early morning poo :) if that's possible... He sometimes wakes up at 5:00 and poos immediately after. So I'm wondering if the need to poo is waking him up :( If I knew he hadn't pooed I would leave him in his crib for a little while so he knows it's not wake up time yet..
Here is a recap of lo routine
5:30 should be wake up time
6:00 220ml bottle of välling
7:00 breakfast ( porridge, fruit)
9:00 -10:30 nap time
10:30: 240ml of milk
12:00 lunch ( BLW... Veggies .. Omelette etc)
14:00-15:30 nap
15:30 240 ml of milk
18:30 220 ml bottle of välling
18:45 Sleep
22:00 dreamfeed milk 240 ml
Välling is a swedish drink we give babies when they are over 6 months .. Not sure if it exists elsewhere .. It's like a watery porridge or thicker milk. It fills them up more for the night.
I was wondering if he needs the dreamfeed still .. He drinks the whole bottle but maybe this is making him poo that early because he should be sleeping until at least 5:30.
Should I think about dropping the dreamfeed ? Is it something I phase out gradually by giving him less ? Or just stop ?
I was also thinking of adding an extra meal of solids at around 16:30
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Unfortunately phases of pooing at an inconvenient time can just happen. Yes you could try to move the feeds a bit but it might not change his poo time. It may be that he wakes due to routine and then poos or it might be as you said that he wakes because he needs to poo. No way to know really.
I guess he is around 8 months now, a great time to drop the DF.
Some people prefer to go cold turkey on such things, just stop and if LO wakes then shush/pat (or adapted) back to sleep. I never choose cold turkey where I have another option so I would personally prefer a gradual wean over a short period of time, say a week. If you GW then reduce the DF by about 30ml (1oz) each night until you get down to 30ml (1oz) and at that point stop offering and if LO wakes shush/pat to resettle. Some people also like to move the time when they GW, so bringing the feed 30 mins earlier each night, I didn't do this but it brings the feed closer to the BT feed over a period of nights until it comes too close to BT to give.
Make sure that day time milk feeds and solids offerings are increased so he can shift those calories to the day time in either milk or solids.
I'm not familiar with the thicker milk, I've heard of night time milk or hungry baby milk which I think is thickened but never used it. Is it possible that the poo at 5am began when you introduced this type of milk? It might be worth trying a couple of weeks without that milk but in giving regular formula instead and see if it changes his toilet habits??
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Thanks for your reply :)
I also don't like the idea of suddenly stopping the DF .. So from tonight I'll gradually bring it down. I can compensate the calories at lunch and dinner by giving him some milk after his solids. I'm sure he will be pleased, he loves his milk :)
Unfortunately he has always been a morning pooer:) ( never thought I would be discussing poo this much haha) so I'm hoping that it's because of the dream feed.
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Hope it goes smoothly for you - I'm sure it will, when I've done a bit of gradual weaning like that it's always me that is nervous about it and DS hasn't batted an eye.
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Hi
Just a little update :) we have successfully dropped the 10oclock night feed ! I have added an extra meal at 5pm. We are baby led weaning but I'll always finish his diner of with a bowl of porridge so I'm sure this will fill him up:) then he has his bottle at 6:30pm.
We have a bit of a sleep regression at the moment .. My lb is 8 months next week and has entered Leap 6 of the wonder weeks. I follow this quite a lot as the readings have always been very accurate with my lo.
So right now I can there is so much going on for him .. Just learnt to crawl and getting faster :) and I can tell he is all the place right now. ( physically and mentally)
So he has started waking up after 45mins nap and as soon as he wakes he is active ! And for his afternoon nap we have quite a few tears and fighting his nap :( and only wants to fall asleep in our arms :( we try as much as possible to settle him in his crib but he cries so much sometimes we just have to go with it and let him fall asleep in our arms.
I guess this has some repercussions on his night sleep. Which is a bit hit and miss right now. Sometimes he will wake up crying on his tummy but will settle right away once we flip him over again. But last night for example , he wouldn't settle and would only settle in our arms. I am convinced that it has nothing to do with hunger as it was happening while he was still have his dream feed.
Is there something else in our routine that I could tweak or is this just a phase and the only thing is to ride it out ?
He is currently on 3,5 hours awake time and 2 naps a day. One at 9:00 and the other at 14:00
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Hi there, great to hear things have been going pretty well :)
His current disturbance can of course be all developmental, I didn't follow the WW but I hear they are very useful and often accurate. You could just hold firm and ride it out, see if this passes when the WW has passed.
Looking just at the nap issue alone (rather than the WW) it could be that he is ready for another A increase. He seems to like the higher end of A times so I'd increase to 3hr 45 for a couple of days, see how it goes and possibly increase to 4hr if it's needed, it may be only the first A time you need to increase because once the A time gets longer and you get a good nap it can become tricky to fit in 2 full naps in the day so the second nap might need to be shorter and therefore have a shorter A time before and after.
That afternoon nap refusal is a tricky one, if he is doing a full A time after his short 45 min morning nap he might be OT for the afternoon nap and finding it hard to relax (crying and wanting to be in arms) but if you have been reducing the second A time to account for the short nap then he might actually be UT instead.
I think you tend to go for earlier wake up and earlier BT in your routine so I've jotted down times based on that. Your day might look something like this if the first A time needs to increase as far as 4hrs
WU 5.30
A 4hr
S 9.30 - 11 (full nap)
A 3hr 30
S 2.30 - 3.30 (45-60 min, shorter nap)
A 3hr 15
BT 6.30/6.45
It's just an example. Some LOs will accept a shorter last A time if they have not had a full afternoon nap so BT can stay the same. The real routine will depend on how well he responds to an extra 15 mins first A time and if the afternoon nap has been OT or UT. Hope that makes sense.
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Hi
Thanks for the reply ! :)
Actually since I wrote the morning nap is going quite good so it could have been just a one off.. Because I think he already has almost 4 hours awake time. I hear him awake around 5:10.. But I let him be as long as he isn't crying.
But the afternoon nap is a bit hit and miss. So I think I will try to increase his awake time to 14:30 and then just let him have an hour.
If I increase bedtime to 7pm, will he wake up a bit later ? I have tried it but he seems to still wake up between 5:00 and 5:30am. Or is maybe something that he will gradually do ?
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If I increase bedtime to 7pm, will he wake up a bit later ? I have tried it but he seems to still wake up between 5:00 and 5:30am. Or is maybe something that he will gradually do ?
Mine always woke early no matter what and I was basically stuck with 5am 5.30am WUs (sometimes 4.30 which drove me insane!) BUT it is possible to move them on if you are really determined to do so. When I went through it I really didn't have the courage to see it through, I'm positive that if I ever had the opportunity to go it again I'd be more confident. When mine was older I did push it, I think it was when clocks were going back and I couldn't face returning to 5.30WUs (I think by then I had finally got him to 6/6.30 but it had taken for ever). I discovered with mine I had to really make BT much later and hold firm whilst the OT built and forced him to shift his body clock, he certainly had a strong body clock which woke him in the morning even if he was put to bed later...so I had to go quite a lot later to make it happen.
If you do want to move WU time I would suggest starting out like a clock change (not sure where you are or if you have them), moving 15 mins each day, it is important to move E times not just sleep times. So first E is 15 mins later and everything you do in the day is 15 min later. Next day another 15 min later. After 4 days you've moved an hour.
Mine didn't respond well to this tbh, he needed to be taken beyond an hour for WU time to move.
I would suggest letting this recent wobble pass before starting out so you know what your routine is before you start moving it, don’t know about you but I always had to write this stuff down so I knew what I was supposed to be doing at what time each day.