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SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: BethG4 on February 08, 2016, 10:56:56 am
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Hi
Apologies as this will be long!
There are a lot of things wrong with the way my 12 week old sleeps and I am not sure where to start. I think my little boy would be classed as a spirited/grumpy baby going by the quiz in the BW book.
When he was very little he wanted to be held all the time and we probably did this until 6 or 7 weeks. We used to hold him for naps and ended up bringing him in to our bed at night most of the time. At that point I realised that something needed to change and we started trying to get him to sleep in his bed (a Sleepyhead in his crib). It has taken us until the last week or two to be able to get him to go down on the sleepyhead for the majority of the night and last week I had three days where he was taking decent length naps (between 1 and 3 hours a few times per day) in his bed.
The first problem we have is that he majorly resists sleep. It is currently taking about 20 minutes of him being rocked and walked around to get him to sleep and he cries loudly every time and fights us.
The second problem is him waking up when we then put him down. I try to wait until he is in a deep sleep but to be honest I don't think it makes much difference. This has been our problem in getting him to go down since he was tiny. Up until last week he woke up almost every time he was put down in the day and something suddenly changed last week (no idea what, nothing I did!) and he would go down, fidget around a bit and then re-settle. The last few days he is waking up almost every time again. At night time something is different and he is generally able to settle better although last night was a different story! I should also mention that recently he is waking up after being put to sleep while we are still holding him, so he isn't settling on us either.
I want to start being able to put him down in his crib while he is awake but we have a few problems with this. The first is that he gets hysterical after a while of being in the crib (sometimes straight away, sometimes after a couple of minutes). It makes no difference if I try to pat him, stroke his face, talk to him etc. We are talking purple faced crying and holding breath! So I don't know how shh-pat is going to work. I have loosely tried it a few times and I can settle him with it whilst holding him and as soon as I put him down he screams again.
The third problem we have is him waking between 20-45 minutes into a nap and not re-settling. As I mentioned, last week he was great with this and I don't know what has changed. I feel that he is a baby that needs longer naps as he has proven a few times that he can do it. This is making me feel terrible as I really thought we were getting somewhere. He wakes up screaming almost every time and is constantly rubbing his eyes and scratching his face.
I am also trying to get him on EASY but with him resisting sleep already (even just having been fed), it is almost impossible to do it if he hasn't been fed and then when he wakes up after being put down or stirring, he is hungry and I have to feed him. He also only takes 5 minutes to feed (he is breastfed and always has taken this amount of time and is putting on plenty of weight) so I feel as if he gets tired very quickly. In the last few days he is also being really fussy with his feeds and it is taking a lot to get him to feed for about 4 minutes total so I suspect he is going through his 3m growth spurt.
Where should I start? Should I start by just trying to get him to take the naps in his bed, then on Shh/pat, then on EASY? Or do I need to start with getting him to settle on his own? If, as is usual, he resists a nap or wakes up early, etc, do I keep trying to put him down and if so how long for? This morning we got up at 7, I tried to get him to sleep at 8:30 and he fell asleep and woke up twice, before finally being successfully put in the sleepyhead about 20 minutes ago and he had just woken up. So we have been trying to get him to take a nap for two hours just to get him to have a total of probably 40 minutes sleep he is crying now because he is still tired.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Beth x
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Sorry your post has been missed, I shall bump this for you x
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Please don't feel terrible, it sounds like you are trying your very best with a baby who is tricky to get to sleep. My son was similar as a baby and it drove me crazy trying to get naps to get him into a routine
A couple of questions:
Do you have a wind down routine for him to get him ready to nap?ve.g. Reducing stimulation before the nap, quiet time, low lights, swaddle, holding in cot etc? This can really help a baby who doesn't like to sleep to ease into it.
If so at what time do you start your wind down? If you are aiming for him to be asleep after 1.5hrs, you might need to start him getting ready to nap about 20 mins before that if that's how long he needs to get tonslerp e.g. Wake up at 7, start winding down for nap by 8.10/15 to be asleep for 8.30.
Will he sleep longer in a rocker chair, swing, sling or the pram/buggy or car? Although the books don't recommend it, in real life many babies need this help to take some catch up naps (and take the pressure off you) for some of the naps.
Both my children, but my son especially, needed a wind down before a nap, white noise on & a dark room..and to be swaddled quite closely and then held in cot until asleep. My son also needed to be rocked in the cot or a rocker chair to get to sleep.
At this age I would just try to get the right A time and timing of wind down , then aim for the nap in the cot using this help (props, I suppose). They can be gradually faded out later as your baby gets older and more ready for sleep training. Many babies aren't ready to learn independent sleep until they are a little older.
If I'm only getting short naps at home, I also use the sling or buggy to get at least one long nap a day to help prevent my baby getting overtired. It can give you a break too.
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Hi,
Thanks for the bump Buntybear and for the reply Scottishmummy.
I don't have much of a wind down routine. To keep things consistent I've been taking him into our room, swaddling him tight, telling him it's time for his nap, holding him vertically and singing twinkle twinkle a couple of times (this is about as much still holding as I can get out of him without him starting to fight) and then standing still with him horizontal across me and shh-patting him to sleep. I am then continuing the shh-pat for a minute or two and waiting until he's in a deep sleep to put him down. After reading your reply I've added some white noise into this morning's attempt. I know shh pat should be done differently but I'm thinking that if I can get him used to falling asleep while I'm not waking or rocking him then gradually I should be able to shh-pat him in the crib. Does that sound ok? I usually begin swaddling etc when I think he's starting to look tired- first yawn etc. So this morning I started it 1hr 15 after waking.
He doesn't sleep very well in anything else but in a way I am glad about that as hopefully we will have a quicker route to good sleep in the crib.
Yesterday he managed 1hr in the morning, 2.5hrs early afternoon and about 40 minutes late afternoon before next door's dog woke him up. This is a vast improvement on the 20-40 mins we were getting when I posted. We tried to get him to take a little cat nap about 6:30 as he was tired and we aren't putting Him to bed for night time until 9 ish but it took over an hour to get him to sleep and he only had about half an hour (in arms unfortunately). Things usually go to pot a bit in the evening and I suppose that probably contributes to him being unsettled at night.
Thanks again for your reply xx
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I should also mention that the reason I want him to be able to fall asleep independently in the crib is that he's not settling in there at night and we are ending up having to hold him most of the night. Sometimes he wakes within 10 mins of being put in the crib and thrashing around, other times he thrashes for half an hour and then ends up crying. I feel like if he could learn to fall asleep in there he would be able to settle himself.
Just tried putting him down for a nap and he woke up within 10 mins of being put in the crib :(
Xx
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Yesterday sounds good, sorry today wasn't so successful.
What you describe as your WD routine sounds perfect to get him ready for nap & lots of people start shh pat on arms to sleep before transition to cot. Once he's used to falling asleep in your arms like that you could start trying to put him in cot when he's very drowsy but not quite asleep and continue the last bit to sleep in the cot. You can then gradually put him in cot earlier and earlier until he goes on calm but awake & does the rest himself (that takes a while though, go at your baby's pace and trust your instinct about when he might be ready for next step)
On other hand, if he's waking as soon as you transfer to cot, you might want to try just starting in the cot. Do your WD routine as above, get him calm then place him in the cot, stay with him shh-ing & either patting or just holding him (patting in cot was too stimulating for my daughter but worked for my son) until he falls asleep. That gets round the waking on transfer problem. Some people also find they need to hold baby for 10-20mins after they're asleep to stop them jerking themselves awake.
Yesterday's naps sound good. I hope today's get better.
The last catnap of the day is always hardest! Out of interest, would you consider an earlier bedtime? If your baby is up for day around 7am, he might be ready for night sleep by 7pm.
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Thank you, that is really helpful and reassuring to hear.
I would consider an earlier bedtime but as he's generally not settling in his bed after his first sleep we have selfishly been trying to get the benefit of that longer first sleep ourselves. A few nights ago he miraculously did 6.5hrs between feeds at his first stretch (so say 6h sleep) two nights on a run but since then he has gone back to only doing 2 or 3 hours at his longest stretch so I suppose it wouldn't make much difference to us at the moment if he did the longer sleep earlier.
Just tried only Shh'ing (no patting) and putting one hand on his back in the crib and he was asleep within about a minute. It is probably a fluke with him being so tired from not napping this morning but if he can start to do that it would be brilliant.
How is it that they manage to eventually fall asleep on their own when you shh/pat them? Does the shh/pat itself not become a sort of prop?
Thanks again for the support x
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Shh-pat is not working any more. He goes absolutely hysterical as soon as I start doing it now, even in my arms. He is so tired, he just will not go to sleep. I've been trying to get him to sleep so he can make it through to his bath for about an hour and nothing is working :'(
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Oh no, sounds like his evenings are really hard work for you & for him. Did he go to sleep eventually or did you just do bath & bed (I've done that if they just won't take that last nap)
I think last nap is the hardest one to get babies to take. Maybe because they're already a bit overtired & stimulated from the day or maybe it's because it's the first nap they drop. I have "accidental parented on purpose" (APOP) the last nap for both my kids-either in sling, rocker chair, buggy or rocking in my arms. It's just a short one to get to bedtime & it will be first they stop taking and if you're getting other naps in the cot, it won't matter to APOP the last one.
Would you consider rocking/holding him to sleep for that last catnap?
It sounds like SH-pat is working at other times though?
Also- if you want to post your son's day in EASY format maybe we could see if there are any tweaks you could try to his routine to make getting the nap a bit easier? e.g.
E: 7am
A 1.5hrs
S: 8.30-10
Etc.
Re learning to fall asleep on their own. As they get older they get more ready to self-settle & SH-pat can be gradually faded out. It is still help (or a prop) for them to sleep but one that is easier to fade out than feeding to sleep, or rocking/walking/bouncing etc.
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It is definitely the hardest. We have resorted to doing that last nap in arms a few times but last night he woke up straight after being put down and then did not go back down for about an hour so I gave up. Our EASY schedule is all over the place because of these failed naps. He only took one yesterday and even then it was 40 minutes, so he's clearly OT. Here's today (or yesterday since we are past midnight):
Up at 7:50
E- 8:10
A
S- 9:15-9:35, awake and crying, B2S 9:55-10:15.
E- 10:15
A
S- 11:25-11:50, awake and crying, B2S for 5 min then hysterical and try for an hour to re-settle, give up.
E- 13:00
A
S- 13:35-14:25, awake crying, re settle with rocking and hold until 15:35
E- 15:33
A
S- 17:00-17:20, try and fail to re-settle until 18:00,
E- 18:00
A
S- try to re-settle and give up at 18:30. We did bath at 19:20 as that's when my husband got in.
E- 19:40
A- none
S- 19:50 awake 20:30
E - 20:40 (we decided I might as well top him up)
A- none
S- husband held him until 23:40, I fed then and held him while he wriggled all over the place for two hours, fed again and I've now put him in his crib. He's still wriggling around and just will not settle.
Obviously that is horrendous and completely dominated by failed naps. Here's Tuesday:
Up 7:40
E- 8:20 (he had fed at 5:40 so not hungry before then)
A
S- 9:05-9:30
E- 9:45
A-
S- 10:10-10:30
E-11:15
A-
S- 11:30-11:50 (in car on way to group)
E- none
A- baby massage
S- none
E- 12:30
A- none
S- 1300-15:30
E- 15:40
A
S- 17:00-17:45
E- 18:00
A-
S-
E- 20:15
A-
S- 20:30 then woke up 22:30 so fed again, then fed 1:30, 3:30, 6. We had him in with us from about 2:30, again, wriggling around the whole time as he doesn't settle properly on us either.
Again, dominated by failed naps :(
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Just to let you know I've seen your reply but need time for a good look and full reply. I will do that & reply tonight when both my little ones are asleep xxx
Just one question are you breast or bottle feeding?
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Hi
Thank you :)
We are breast feeding.
He settled in his crib last night in the end and woke at 11:45, 1:40, 4 and 6 for a feed. Suspect we may have hit the 4 month sleep regression early!
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Maybe he's having a growth spurt?
Please don't be so hard on yourself about the napping. I don't think it looks like failure at all. It looks pretty typical for a young baby. Lots of young babies take short naps and can startle around the 20min mark & wake themselves up. You have done a good job managing to resettle and get some longer naps in there.
For most of the day it looks like you're following his cues and getting him to nap at around an appropriate A time for his age...so around 1hr20-30 after night sleep or a good nap and more like 1hr10 after a short nap. That looks just right for him.
I wonder if he's having an involuntary jerk and startling himself awake around 20 min into his naps? Swaddling helps reduce this, which you said you use but I found with my DD that I also needed to hold her (in cot) at that point to keep her asleep. Could you go in before he wakes to try that? One of other mums on this forum says she holds her daughter in her cot until after 20 mins to get round the startling awake too & avoid the coming in & out of room.
I think the trickiest bit is the evenings and he's ending up having a really long time awake (for his age) until bedtime & that might be making him overtired, harder to get to sleep and more disrupted at night & possibly the next day too.
If it were me, I would try for an earlier bedtime- so if you just get 20 min nap at 5pm & he won't resettle after a short time trying, I would just start bedtime routine then & have him in bed around 6.30ish (if possible) If he sleeps 45 mins until 17.45, I would do a 7ish bedtime.
I hear you that the disadvantage of earlier bedtime is the biggest chunk of night sleep is in the early part of the evening....but it could give you more of a relaxed evening if he did sleep then and you could try dream feeding to get more sleep for yourself when you go to bed?
ETA: just re-read your posts about him being v unsettled during the night & wriggling around a lot. Does he seem to be uncomfortable (e.g. With wind or tummy pain) or is he just alert and wide awake?
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Hi
I suppose it cold be a growth spurt. He fed every two hours again last night but I suspect that is more comfort than need as he's been doing that for ages now.
I do think he involuntarily jerks himself awake. I crept into our room 40 minutes into his nap earlier and sure enough I saw him in REM sleep and then at about dead on 45 minutes he stirred and woke up. I tried Shh'ing and holding him but suspect I did it too late. Will try staying with him to see if I can stop the jerking.
I also saw a swaddling technique called the Houdini which we tried overnight, the first blanket pins the arms down and secures under baby's body and the second goes over the top for body security. He still woke every two hours but I was able to put him down until about 5am.
When he's wriggling around he's not properly awake. He has his eyes shut and moves his head from side to side and lifts his legs. I know that would tend to suggest wind but we have been double dosing on infacol since he was about 4 weeks and he always gets his wind up after feeds in the day. I can't get it up most of the time at night and it also fully wakes him up when I wind him so I must admit I don't try too hard.
We have discussed bedtime and are going to try to gradually move it forward. The trouble is he always wakes at between 4 and 6 with wind and gearing up for a dirty nappy and from this point we have to hold him to keep him asleep. It would be awful if that then started from 2 or 3! I do suspect he is over feeding though and I suppose if we put him to bed earlier that would eliminate a feed that might be contributing to discomfort.
Good to know A times seem about right. I'm going to try to stretch them closer to 1hr 30 min which hopefully might encourage longer naps too.
Thanks for your help!
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Good luck, let me know how you get on :-*
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Hi
Here is how yesterday went:
Up 6:30
E- 7:30
A- 2hr 5 (I didn't realise my husband had got him up so early!)
S- 8:35-8:55, 9:05-10:50
E-11:00
A-1hr 20
S- 55min- 1hr 15- 12:20-13:15, awake/trying to self settle 13:20-13:40
E- 13:45
A- 1hr 30
S- 55min- 15:15-16:00, 16:05-16:15
E- 16:20
A- 1hr 10 min
S- 17:30- 18:00
E- 18:30
A- 2hrs- bath and WD
E- 19:20
S- BT- 19:40-20:35
E- 20:40
S- 21:00
Night feeds- midnight, 2:30, 5:30
However, we've had an absolutely horrendous night. He woke up for a feed after 3hrs, did a dirty nappy (which he never does at night) and then took an hour to get him to sleep again. He was awake after half an hour and he has been awake every half hour or hour all night since. He's absolutely hysterical when we try to get him to go back to sleep. I thought that better day time sleep was supposed to make them sleep better at night but if this is how he is when his naps are good then I would rather he had less day time sleep. What do you think? I know some of today's A times were too long, but would that really have this effect?
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Ouch, that is an awful night! You have my every sleepy sympathy, my DD (4 mo) did similar a few nights this week. For her I think it was a combination of growth spurt and developmental stuff & possibly teething too.
I honestly don't know whether his bad night is down to the day sleep before or something else. Yes, usually better day sleep gives a better night. My DD has sometimes been a bit disrupted at night if she has a mega nap e.g. 3hrs but usually too much day sleep gives her early waking or long but happy night wakings, not short, sad frequent ones (I can't remember what DS did but he wasn't good at napping so I don't think too much day sleep was ever an issue for him!)
Sometimes they just have a bad night or two for other reasons e.g. Growth spurt, teeth, illness, wind, developmental spurts (wonder weeks). If it were me, I would give it another day or 2 continuing as you are in the day (with extra tea & chocolate for you & your DH!) & see what happens.
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Thanks. We'll give it some more time. I do suspect growth spurt as he's very cross finishing his night feeds and he isn't usually like that. Here goes nothing!!!
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Fingers crossed for you. A broken frequent feeding night for us too. These babies love to see us in the early hours don't they?
If you feel you're getting better naps in the days but nights continue to be very disrupted & you're not sure why, you could try a post on "night waking" board?
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Will do! Still to get daytime naps sorted as I'm almost always still having to come in, pick up and shh pat or rock back to sleep some way through every nap. I think it's partly because I'm not getting his A times quite right.
Sorry you had a sleepless night too. We had a repeat performance of the night before. Reading horrifying things about the 12week growth spurt lasting 5 weeks!!!