BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: oofy2016 on April 03, 2016, 10:55:26 am
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Hi, I'm hoping someone can help me.
My daughter is 4 3/4 months, 5 months next week. I have always fed to sleep and am trying to break the association. Feeding to sleep was fine for me but meant I needed my husbands help to get her into bed every time so when he wasn't around I co-slept. She generally woke every two hours overnight and took an hour to feed to sleep and it's not really sustainable so I started shh par on Friday afternoon (today is Sunday).
It seems to be working initially it took half an hour and she was on my shoulder the whole time and then another 20 mins quiet in the crib. This morning it took 15 mins in the crib with her grumbling/crying but not hard.
I've got a few questions though as I'm feeding like a mean mum. I really don't believe in crying and have tried the no cry sleep solution but to be honest it was taking too long and we were desperate for sleep.
The first is, should they cry when I do the shh pat, and for how long. Sometimes on my shoulder she really howls, but does settle down after about ten minutes. Is it ok for her to cry in the crib for 5 mins if it's not hard crying or should I pick her up straight away.
Also, is 4.5/5 months too old to start with shh pat? I read somewhere that you need to do it under 3 months, but it seems to be working. I previously tried pu/pd and it was a nightmare she cried so hard it felt like cio to me and I had to stop after 20 mins.
She seems to settle better with me than my husband. Does this work better if done by one person to start with?
I also have some questions about consistency. Does this mean so shh pat for EVERY sleep, or just when you start, don't give up, that I have to see it through?
Also, is it ok to do this consistently overnight until she wakes at 6 and then bring her into bed with me for an hour to feed until we get up? I think if I re-started shh pat at 6 it's too close to morning for it to work again.
In a similar vein, I often go for a walk at lunchtime. With daytime naps can I do shh pat for the first one and then sling for the second? It would be a major change to my lifestyle to be at home for all 3 naps!!
What counts as a 'catnap' and do I do shh pat for this too or can this be anywhere/anyhow? I'm a bit confused about why the third nap is called a catnap. Can I do this with her asleep on me?
I realise I have a lot of questions, but I'm finding shh pat very hard and I need to know I'm doing it right and going in the right direction or I might give up!
Thank so much for any advice.
Jess x
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Hi Jess and welcome to the boards :)
I think it may help you to think of crying as a form of communication - after all that's all your LO can really do right now. We are totally with you that we don't believe in leaving a LO to cry without a response, but crying with you there is a very different thing. It's more of a conversation - hey mum, I'm tired, why can't I get to sleep? (You) shhhh it's ok, I'm here, you're safe, it's ok to relax etc etc. So yes crying whilst doing shh pat is to be expected but only because she's telling you 'hey, this isn't how we do it!' - not because she's scared or abandoned. It's hard to hear them cry and natural to want to make it better, but when we focus entirely on getting the crying to stop that's like telling a friend who is pouring their heart out to you to be quiet and stop talking about it. Does that kind of make sense?
Her age is fine for shh pat :) PUPD is really only meant to be used as a last resort rather than as the first option so sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing.
You and your husband can both be involved, it doesn't have to just be one of you. The only time you wouldn't switch is mid-settling. But if it works better for you to do it for now then your DH the get involved when she is more used to it, that's fine too. Just make sure you are both doing it the same way.
I'll get back to you later with some more answers - just got my LOs to attend to!
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OK I'm back - sorry about the delay :)
In terms of consistency, you will likely see results quicker if you do use shh pat for each nap and nights, that just gives her more chances to practice. But what a lot of people do at this age is to do the 'main' naps at home in the crib and then the 'catnap' (= a short nap, usually no more than one sleep cycle i.e. 45 minutes whereas a 'full' nap would be 2 or more sleep cycles i.e. 1h30 or more) out and about in a sling or pram etc. If it works for you to always do nap 1 at home, nap 2 in the sling and nap 3 in another way that's ok too, others on here have found that their LOs have got used to doing certain naps in a particular way. I'd just expect it may take a bit longer to get shh pat and independent sleep going in that case, but not impossible.
The 6am thing is up to you :D Lots of people really cherish those early morning feeds and cuddles so if it suits you to do that then that is fine. It's worth bearing in mind that if she gets used to it it may become a habit you need to deal with at some point in the future (if it no longer suits you) but that can be dealt with when and if you feel it has become a problem.
Just one more thing - you may see much more success if the routine is right :) Did you want to post a typical daytime for us in EAS format so we can see if there's anything there you could try changing to make some more progress?
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Hi Jessmum,
Thanks so much for the reply and the welcome. I feel better about the crying already. That's a much better way of thinking about it. Tonight we went straight for the crib and she was really drowsy and pretty much went off straight away, so I shh patted for fifteen mins and I'm hoping she now stays asleep. It's much easier in the crib than on my shoulder so I'm hoping we can do this from now on.
I also wondered (in addition to my multitude of questions below!) is it ok to feed to drowsy and put her down, or is it best to keep her fully awake and then put her down and shh pat from there? I was thinking of doing the following routine: bath, feed, book, sleep, but tonight she was so drowsy feeding I couldn't keep her awake and skipped he book so she went down drowsy, but it seemed counter intuitive to fully wake her up to put her back to sleep - But am I meant to do this?
I'm glad she is the right age. I actually spoke to a sleep consultant a while ago who told me we had a lost cause and pu/pd was the only way- she was only 10 weeks so it ended up being a nightmare for everyone and I gave up on sleep training until hearing about shh pat last week.
Thanks so much for the explanation and support. I can't tell u how much it means in the dead of night when trying something new!
Jess
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Oh bless you! I'm sorry you had such a bad time with PUPD, it can be a really useful sleep training tool but I agree at 10 weeks would have been much too stimulating and not the right way for most babies.
Well done for bedtime tonight! It does get easier, I promise :) I think to begin with having her drowsy is ok, the ultimate aim is to put her down fully awake and have her settle herself but you can take small steps towards that at a pace you are both comfortable with. I certainly remember with DD in the earlier days she would feed until pretty much asleep but then just stir enough to wriggle and put her thumb in as I put her down in bed. As she got older and more aware then she didn't fall asleep quite so often and it became more natural to put her down awake xx
Edited to add - please ask as many questions as you like! We're all Mums too who were helped by other Mums on this board before we decided to stick around :)
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Hi,
Thanks so much for the extra information. After a really good start, im having a really rubbish day today. She woke at 5 and then shh pat failed me for the first time....I couldn't get her back to sleep, I shh patted for about an hour.
I fed her and tried again about 8. I got about 20 mins and then she woke up crying. I tried shh pay again to carry the nap on, but again, it didn't work. I got up and showered and played with her for an hour and a half and then tried again. Again, she got sleepy but kept jolting awake. I was patting with my left hand and holding her arm down with my other hand but she still woke up.
She's had a total of about an hours sleep today, only while I'm actually patting.
I've given up a bit but now she is so OT I can't even feed her to sleep or sling walk her.
Is this normal?
I'm so tired I don't know if I can face doing it again. I'm also pumping 7 times a day to increase my milk to help her weight.
Will post my routine when I can get on the computer as its a bit fiddly on my phone, but she has had low weight gain so it's essentially been EAES and i really watch her aWake times carefully.
Thanks for any advice. She so tired now she has bags under her eyes!
Jess
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Hi, also...should it be dark in the room for naps, or light as it is daytime?
Thanks!
Jess
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Hugs for the rough day :-* it happens even to the most perfect of babies, we've all been there! Hope today is better :)
My two always slept better in the dark for nap time - less distracting I think. But that's up to you really and what suits your LO x
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Hi,
Thanks for the advice. I think we are making (slow) progress. Overnight, bt and first nap of the day are relatively predictable ( hopefully I've not just jinxed my night tonight!). We still get 3-4 wake ups but settling is improving. Previously it's taken myself and my husband to settle, now I can do it all on my own, which gives him a break.
I have 2 major issues continuing and I'm hoping someone can help.
The first is that I'm finding that I do the wind down for the first nap, or our bed time routine and then I feed. I really really struggle not to let her fall at least partly asleep on the boob. I tickle her feet, talk to her, blow in her face, she just falls asleep. She always opens her eyes and looks around when I stand up at the end of the feed and always opens her eyes as she goes into the crib. Is this ok? Do you have any advice on how to handle this as I imagine you want her more awake to learn to self settle properly. Should I wake her up and read her a story? I'm scared to wake her up as it might really stimulate her and make her cry more in the settling process/wind her up.
The second question is that I'm really struggling with shh pat for the second and third naps today. My second nap she just lay there for an hour and a half looking at me (I kept my eyes averted to avoid eye contact) and eventually grumbled and cried but no sleep. I was exhausted up gave up.
I usually keep her awake time to 2 hours and this worked perfectly for the first nap. Do you think she is chronically OT and nap resistant?
My daytime routine is as follows:
E up at 6.45-7
A 7.15 in swing while I shower, then bouncy chair, then play gym then quieter floor time
S 9-11 in crib after shh pat
E 11-11.15
A 11.15 songs, play gym, jumperoo, playmat then story and quiet time on floor
S 12.30 ATTEMPTED shh pat for 1hr 30 no success
E 2.00 quiet feed
A 2.15 walk round garden in sling, quiet floor time (but lots of rolling)
S 4.00 fed to sleep on me as I was worried she wouldn't nap again before bed.
E 4.45
A 5.00 floor time with toys, singing, play gym
E 6.00
A 6.30 bath, 4S WIND DOWN
E 7.00 takes a long time as keeps falling asleep
S 7.45 shh pat 8.30 actually asleep
I've just realised how bad my easy looks. There are a lot more E's in there as my LO has had slow weight gain since birth and refuses a bottle (any tips welcome) so I feed on demand and as much as possible through the day. She gets hungry quickly but her feeds aren't efficient and we have just found out that her tongue tie, which was snipped at 3 weeks, has reformed.
I'm seeing a paediatrician tomorrow for the weight issue, she also has eczema so I've gone dairy free.
Please help! My biggest concern is the fact I struggle with the second two naps- she's been really OT the last 2 afternoons.
Thanks so much for your help.
J
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The feed before bed followed by going down drowsy but eyes open sounds fine. We did the same then gradually introduced a story from 6 months or so. At first we read during the feed, then literally a few seconds extra at the end, then just gradually shifted so it became feed then story. Baby steps :)
I think your routine issue is probably UT, leading to OT. At her age 2h A time is on the shorter end of average, up to 2.5h would be fine for some babies. You actually only put her down after 1.5h A for her second nap :). Given her first nap was 2h I can't imagine she was at all tired hence she didn't settle. I wouldn't even start trying to put down until 2h after a good nap. Wind down really doesn't need to be long - I would take mine into their rooms, into sleeping bag, dim lights, quick song then down into cot. Light off and leave. You don't need to shh pat at all unless she is upset - if she is content then just leave her to it :)
Oh and for your own sake - don't shh pat for an hour and a half, you'll go mad! Tracy said try for 45 mins max. Honestly I'd say if she's clearly not settling at all in 15-20 mins (esp after a short A time) get her up, at for 15 mins or so then try again later x
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Thanks for the advice.
We have had a really rough week or so here, and ended up in hospital for three days. It means our sleep has totally gone to pot. :-(
She is still a little poorly and is on antibiotics....but relatively perky in herself but is now waking every 1.5-2 hours overnight and I am shattered.
I need to restart shh pat. Please can someone give me some guidance on how to handle this with a mildly poorly baby, do I just start again shh patting as before in the crib and work it from there?
On another note, does anyone know if there are recommended night nannies who specialise in shh pat who might be able to help me? I really want to help her sleep as I think it will help her feel better and gain weight but I'm desperately tired and as we can't get her on the bottle I could really do with some help. For some reason dh can't help with the shh patting. She always wakes up and ends up distraught when he does it....
I spoke to a night nanny yesterday but at this age she only does cio and I really don't want to resort to that.
Thanks so much for any advice.
Feeling a bit OT and desperate myself.
Thanks
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So sorry your little one has been unwell :(. I would wait until she is totally better before trying any sleep training, it's not really fair on either of you right now :-* give her snuggles and reassurance and then see where things lie once she is better. Even if DH can't shh pat I'm guessing he could hold or cuddle her for a while and give you a bit of a rest so you can both catch up?
When she's better why not start afresh and just observe for a couple of days to see when she seems to be sleepy/hungry etc and log your days in an EAS format. Post it here when you've got it and we'll help you with a plan to get restarted. It may be that in the midst of illness she's also hit a time where her routine needs a shake-up (5-6 months is a classic time for some big A time leaps and the 3-2 starting) and some small adjustments could make shh pat much easier. Shh pat will only work with an appropriate routine, and we are more than happy to help with that :D
We don't recommend any particular nannies, all I would say is if you go that route look very carefully at their methods as many will dress up forms of CIO/CC as something else. You need to find someone who is a good fit for you and trust your instincts x
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Thank you for all the help and support on here. We are now on the track to normality. Daughter has been diagnosed with cows milk allergy (on skin prick test) and soy allergy. Since cutting these out her weight has jumped up the centiles a bit and I am much happier.
As we were concerned about her weight I do feed frequently and have fed to sleep when she wakes overnight.
She is still waking every 3.5-1.5 hours overnight and I would like to try to get more sleep without too much crying. I have gone back to napping her in the sling and feeding to sleep since being in hospital so we are starting from there.
I exclusively breastfeed and she does not take a bottle.
She is 6.5 months old and I struggle to get 3 naps in anymore. Our days generally look like yesterday, which was like this:
7 am up and big feed
8 am offer solids
8.30-10.30 activity on play mat
11 am sleep in sling until 12.45
1pm breastfeed
1.30-3.15 activity on play mat
3.15-3.30 breastfeed
3.30-5 sleep in sling (walk to sleep)
5.30 breastfeed
6 solids
6.30 bath
7pm feed to sleep (sometimes takes 45 mins, sometimes takes until 1.5hours)
Wakes to feed after 2.45 hours, then 1.5 hourly thereafter. Offered boob and feeds to sleep at each waking in 10 minutes.
I would like to start shh pat again but am nervous that she is going to cry a lot as I have half heartedly tried it a few times and she has rolled over a lot and cried really hard, meaning I give up and feed to sleep.
Any routine/sleep help is greatly appreciated, I feel a bit lost with where to start from where we are.
Thank you.
J
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I'm glad you have managed to get a diagnosis, though sorry she has been suffering :(
Looking at your routine I notice that first A time is really quite long for her age, 3 hours or just over would be more typical. I wonder if that is setting you up for an overtired loop? Her nap times are a decent length but I do just wonder if she is crashing more than getting a proper rested nap? And then I would imagine you are having difficulty getting her to settle at bedtime as the last A is rather on the short side. I'd be tempted to bring the morning nap earlier to around 10am, maybe 10.15 (you'll have to experiment) and then see if you can get her afternoon nap finishing by 4pm ish for a 7pm bedtime. What do you think?
Does she have reflux along with her allergies? Just wondering if there could be ongoing discomfort to explain such frequent wakings?
Assuming it is a sleep prop issue though - is shh pat what you were hoping to try first? Do you have any help or will it be you doing all the settling? Just asking as breaking feed-to-sleep can be hard work, especially when they can smell Mummy! But it is do-able, just helps to know :)
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Thank you for the advice. I will try changing the times and see how I get on tomorrow. :-)
What I really need is some advice about how to stop feeding to sleep and get her settling better as I believe this might make the difference to our current sleep situation - is this right?
I am seeing the doctor in 2 weeks so will ask about reflux when I next see him. I have asked before but he didn't really comment properly, just said he would take it into consideration.
Is she likely to sleep better and longer if I can break the feeding to sleep cycle?
I think I'm going to end up doing this alone, but I can ask my hubby and see what he says.
:-( we have had a disaster bed time tonight and I'm still trying to settle her after almost 2 hours. She never seems to sleep without immense effort from me, it's soooo hard. I really don't want to let her cry or go the cry it out route, but last time I tried shh pat I ended up spending days on end alone at home shh patting (while she cried really hard) and not really getting anywhere, so would really appreciate finding out how to to get our routine and bed times sorted without letting her cry, without losing the little bit of social life I have to have to keep me sane. I understand routines are important, but if I don't get out the house once a day I get really down.
She also seems to be still waking every 2 hours so I'm permanently fairly exhausted.
Her weight is better, but I am still trying to get as many calories as possible into her, so am reluctant to cut out feeds unless she drops them naturally.
Sorry if this rambles a bit, I am just so tired! I seem to be the only one with a 6 month old getting this little sleep, and not consistently able to settle my baby easily.
I tried shh pat last night but she got really worked up so I ended up just holding her and shh img while she cried, but she cried so hard it was horrible, it felt like cio. :-(
Thank you in advance for any advice.
J x x x x
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Yes if she can settle alone without needing to feed to sleep, the idea is she should sleep better as she won't need you every time she stirs.
To stop feeding to sleep you kind of just need to stop feeding to sleep....sorry that sounds a bit silly but it really is a case of stopping the prop and persisting with something else. You may find this helpful as a gentle way of doing it: Gentle Removal Plan
Shh pat or PUPD will only work well with an appropriate routine - if it was taking hours for days on end the most common reasons for that are wrong routine or lack of consistency (eg going for ages then 'giving in' and using the props). I'm not suggesting you stay tied to the house forever, we'd all go mad doing that! But that for a short time you prioritise the routine to 'bed it in' and get her settling, then can be a bit more flexible afterwards. You don't have to stay in all day, with 3h A times there should be at least 2-3 windows of opportunity in the day of a couple of hours to get out and about :)
Can you post yesterday's routine with the bad bedtime?
Overnight I would not feed every two hours. Even if she still needs overnight feeds (perfectly reasonable), she doesn't need that many and that frequently is almost certainly a prop now. A good rule of thumb is not to feed more frequently at night than in the day. If she can handle 4 hours in the day, then if she wakes at night before that time you persist in settling her back to sleep by other means.
Hugs though, you are doing a great job (and well done sticking with nursing!!) and you are by no means the only one with a 6 month old struggling with sleep. I know it can feel like that sometimes but the very existence of this site is proof that we all have struggles xx
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Does anyone have any advice?
Really deaperate here. She won't settle tonight at all. I've had 15 mins sleep and so has she.
Hubby got so cross he has moved into the spare room.
I feel like a total failure.
She won't feed. Won't skeep. Screams when I Shh pat. If I take her into bed with me she blows raspberries which I ignore and then she starts screaming.
I just don't know what to do and feel so alone.
:-(
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Hugs, deep breaths :-* what happened? She sounds super-unsettled for some reason - ill? teeth? pain? Did you see my previous post?
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Hi,
Thanks so much for the advice. I am sorry, for some reason when I replied last, your previous reply didn't appear on my computer. Thank you for the advice.
I am going to try stopping feeding to sleep tonight and try to introduce EASY properly, separating the feeding from sleeping. I think you are right, that maybe the issue is with our routine and I have fallen into lots of accidental parenting due to her poor health.
My two issues are: feeding to sleep (something I am now going to work on stopping) and getting her to nap in her crib, as she currently naps relatively reliably in the sling.
I am going to look at your gentle removal plan now. Do I need to 100% stop feeding to sleep? As in for every waking overnight? (Last night she woke every 1.5 hours)
Do you have any advice on transitioning her naps from the sling to the crib? When I have tried this before, she wakes after about half an hour (if I can get her down at all) and then I worry about losing track of the routine or creating a chronically overtired baby by having insufficient nap times.
I also wondered, in the BW books Tracy seems to imply that PU/PD is the only way to get her napping/sleeping independently now she is over 6 months, but can I use a version of shh pat instead? How do you normally recommend this is done with a 6.5 month old?
Regarding using shush pat and versions of it for babies over 6 months: Last night, to settle her to sleep, I held her and very slightly rocked while I kissed her, as now when I shush pat, she seems to get quite worked up and yells loudly. Once she was calm and floppy, I put her down and she stayed asleep (only for 40 mins, see below). Is this method of shush pat ok, or do you have advice on how to use shush pat in a baby over 6 months? I find it very difficult to settle her in her crib as I used to be able to do as she rolls over and thrashes about when I try to settle her in the crib and not in my arms.
She slept for 40 minutes and I repeated the process.
Overnight she woke up every 1.5 hours.
I am exhausted, but it was better than the previous night.
Sorry about all the questions and thank you very much for any help or advice you can give.
J xx
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Hi hi,
Just further to my message above, I've started using pu/pd for naps and sleep.
It worked for bedtime last night in about half an hour and I was so happy - I hadn't thought it would work! Last night she got less upset with PU/PD than she had for shh pat previously.
HOWEVER....
Her first A time was 3 hours this morning.
With her first nap today she slept for 30 mins and then woke up.
I believe if the nap is under 1 hour, I have to extend the nap (been reading the baby whisperer solves all your problems)
I tried to extend the nap as it was so short (in the sling her morning nap is usually 2hours) but it was really, really tough as she had been asleep for half an hour and appeared wide awake. I did pu/pd for an hour and fifteen minutes. She screamed like she was being tortured for the whole time and I gave up.
I am concerned she will now hate her crib and be very OT today.
She was just distraught. is this meant to happen with PU/PD?
I have a really good relationship with her and I am really concerned that my relationship with her will break down and she won't trust me anymore. :-(
I also don't know if PU/PD will work again as she will remember getting this stressed and me giving up....
Please help. If she's going to get this upset do I just stop when she wakes up?
VERY new to PUPD. I have been picking her up the moment she cries and putting her down the moment she stops.
Thank you for any advice.
J x
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Hi, firstly offering hugs as your lo sounds exactly like mine just now :( Your post earlier today I could have written myself about our morning nap routine today and yesterday! Nightmare doesn't cover it, I was completely at breaking point. I gave up trying to settle my lo in the cot and she still wouldn't settle with cuddles!
I'm afraid I don't have any advice but I've been following your post and the replies and just wanted to offer my hugs and support! It's horrible to say but I'm glad I'm not the only one having these problems. Xxx
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Hi mummy w. It's a relief to know I'm not the only one too....thanks for your post.
An update- the situation so far is like this: I use pupd for bedtime and it works like a charm. Hardly any crying, she is down and asleep in 15 mins and stays asleep for 1hr 40 mins. Not that long, but at least she went down. I then fed her, she woke an hour later, and as I'd fed her recently, I decided to use pupd at this waking. It took an hour, and she only slept for 20 mins before waking up screaming. I didn't use it again, I fed her and at subsequent wakings fed her again.
For naps, I seem to have the same thing. Her a time is about 3 hours, but it still takes an hour plus to get her to settle and she then only sleeps for 20-30 mins and then wakes up screaming.
Is there any reason why pupd would work so well at bedtime but be so bad at naps and night wakings?
I'm planning to back off using it other than at bedtime as I don't understand why there is such a major discrepancy in how well it works at different times. Is this normal?
Any advice greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
J x
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(((Hugs))) for you both. Sorry it's been tough :(.
She really is waking very frequently, are we certain there is no ongoing discomfort? I'm just a bit hesitant to say go all out with PUPD as I don't think the reflux possibility has been totally explored? What about the eczema, is that well-controlled? And has her tummy had a proper chance to heal off dairy? Are you excluding everything, hidden dairy included from your diet?
If you are quite sure there is no ongoing discomfort, then I think this may be a case of persisting. It's often easier at bedtime - the drive to sleep is stronger and LO is more tired so can't fight for so long. Naps are often a lot harder, and as she's taking an hour to settle she must be massively OT by the time she does hence the 30 minute screaming wake ups. The more chances she gets to practice, the easier it will get :)
For your own sanity please don't spend over an hour trying to resettle though!! Honestly, if it's not happening in 5-10 mins or so I really don't think it's worth it. It just exhausts both of you. Just get her up and move on with the day, and be prepared to bring the next nap a touch early due to the first short nap. She won't have lost trust in you :-* :-* you were there the whole time, she was never on her own and more than likely she was just trying to tell you I'm tired, I can't get to sleep, why aren't we doing this the easy way? (((Hugs)))
Nights....I think it may help you to write a plan down that you feel you can stick to. How about feed no more often than 3 hours if you think you can't get to 4 yet? And then gradually extend?
I know it's tough, but you can do this! Make sure you are happy there is no ongoing pain, and then grit your teeth. Better sleep awaits for you all! Oh if PUPD seems too much and she isn't distracted by shh pat, then use that :) your method sounds ok but a little like you may have been holding her until asleep if she'd gone floppy. Try to put her down awake and just soothe with your voice, a hum or shh and maybe just rest a hand on her if patting is too much x
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Thanks Jess, just wanted to add I'm pretty sure my lu is teething again and this has cashed the upset. Could this be the case for your lo as well? Xx
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Thanks for the reply. Waking every 1.5 hours is pretty frequent! sometimes I feel like i'm going a bit mad!
I re-read the section in 'the babywhisperer solves all your problems' on PUPD and realised I was doing it incorrectly for her age. I have changed and now follow the 6-8 month technique, which seems to work much better. (fingers crossed, I don't want to jinx it).
I have read about 6 books on sleep and instituted lots of changes over the months, (small things like blackout blinds and red nightlights, white noise etc) but nothing has made any difference at all.
I think you are totally right. her skin has virtually resolved since I gave up soya and dairy, we don't have to use the steroid cream anymore and she is a different baby during the day. so much happier. But thank you for your post, I checked everything again and guess what?!
- the doctor had prescribed me calcium when I gave up dairy for the allergy, and guess what - it has soy in it. at the same time, I was prescribed domperidone, to ensure I had enough milk, as this was a bit of a questionmark. I now have heaps of breastmilk, but guess what? Domperidone has milk in it!
They were the only two things I hadn't checked, as I trusted that the doctor prescribing them would have checked them, as they were prescribed in response to our allergy diagnosis. Obvs not. Sometimes it is a bit frustrating that doctors don't seem to check things thoroughly. As her allergy to milk is severe (IgE mediated, potential anaphylaxis), I think this may indeed be causing a degree of discomfort.
I am going to continue PUPD at bedtime, but not change the other sleeps. NW's I will feed unless she has fed recently and day naps I will do in the sling, unless she seems particularly settled. If she is settled, I might be brave and try a daytime nap, but only if we both have the energy. I am nervous about messing up her daytime sleep and the impact that being subsequently overtired might have on our night sleep.
Last night I did PUPD for bedtime and only needed to pick her up 4 times, and she settled without much crying at all. Just a very gentle cry, no leg thrashing. She woke first last night after 2 hours, and I just kissed her face for 3 minutes and she went back to sleep for another hour, so I am hopeful that we can start to extend this first sleep a bit, even if the other NWs don't change for a few weeks (until the soya and milk are out my system again).
Does this sound ok? Is it OK to resettle by kissing her face, if I stop before she is fully asleep?
Thanks,
J x
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ps, I think teething may also be an issue - she has her two bottom teeth so I imagine her top two are on their way! ;D
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Settling by kissing sounds lovely :D if it's working for you both then go for it! Sorry about the milk and soy being in your meds :( how frustrating, let's hope she is more comfortable with it gone xx
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So.. An update. Thanks for all the advice so far.
Pupd was working very well for bedtime and....I don't want to jinx it, we had two nights where I put her down and I didn't need to pick her up again, she just rolled over and went to sleep.... For FIVE hours! It was crazy, I've not had that in 7 months! She only woke up 3x overnight .. Which is MUCH better than hourly! So, just as I was feeling confident...
We ended up at a family do and she napped in the car a bit later than usual on Saturday. And bedtime was a total mess and she woke up 5x overnight and I could only settle her by feeding. I put it down to rubbish routine, so yesterday was totally on it with naps and normal routine, she was a bit more of a challenge to settle, which I expected, pupd took about 20 mins. BUT, then she woke up hourly, all night and I couldn't settle her.
What is going on? And what can I do to get our progress back? Agh.
Thank you for any advice or support.
J x
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Ps is it worth trying a dream feed to keep her going longer at night? If so, how do I do this? Thank you for any advice.
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Hi and sorry for not getting back sooner - just got back from my holidays. How are things now? Any better?
A dream feed may help a bit but I suspect that weaning those night feeds a bit might help more. Not necessarily getting rid of all, but 3 wake-ups is still a lot really and suggests to me there is an element of habit to it. What do you think?
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Hi Jessmum.
I hope you had a good holiday. :-) Thank you for the help so far.
Things are much better here. (touch wood). She now still naps in the sling, but bedtime is much better. I put her down in the crib, after our bedtime routine, she plays like a mad thing and then falls asleep. however, we do still have about 4 nightwakings overnight (we had one night of one wakeup but it hasn't been repeated).
Are you able to help me with the next step? We are doing reasonably well (anything is better than hourly wakings) but I'm not sure how to take the next step with night weaning.... do I just do anything I can not to feed, and if so, how do I know that she isn't hungry. should I just PU/PD at every waking? If I reduce feeding overnight do you think she will start sleeping for longer?
I don't think she is ready to not feed at all overnight, but I do definitely think that there is a big element of habit in her waking.
Also, do you have any guidance on how to dreamfeed - do I pick her up (I am breastfeeding) and pop her on the breast or try to pop a bottle in while she is lying down at about 11? (She is a bit hit and miss with a bottle). How do I make sure se feeds properly if she is sleepy?
Thank you for any advice. I'm a bit lost about how to take the next step to nightweaning and reducing our night wakings...
Jess
ps do you think napping her in her bed would make a difference to our nightwakings (instead of napping her in the sling).
Also, she is in our room still as she has been waking so frequently and I didn't want to be running down the corridor hourly overnight. I am happy with this arrangement and am not sure I am ready to change this, but do you think it would make a difference if I moved her into her own room?
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Glad things are better for you :)
do you think napping her in her bed would make a difference to our nightwakings (instead of napping her in the sling).
Not necessarily - if she was napping badly in the sling and was waking at night through OT then maybe yes, but as night sleep and naps are (apparently) organised differently in the brain I think it's perfectly possible for her not to be an independent sleeper at nap time but do so at night. I think she's waking a lot from habit at night and wouldn't expect crib naps to help with that particularly. Of course the 'BW' way is to do all sleep independently, so if you did want to transition her to the crib for naps I'm happy to help. She is only going to get bigger and heavier....and more alert.....so sling naps may not work for you forever.
I am happy with this arrangement and am not sure I am ready to change this, but do you think it would make a difference if I moved her into her own room?
This is totally your call. It is possible that your noise is disturbing her at night, and you are possibly at risk of reacting to her stirring too soon given how near she is. I find it much harder to distinguish a real 'i need you' cry when I am *right there* whereas if i am in the next room i am better at pausing and listening before rushing in.
I put her down in the crib, after our bedtime routine, she plays like a mad thing and then falls asleep. however, we do still have about 4 nightwakings overnight
Just remind me of your current EASY? Just wanted to check there is no UT/OT at play...
I'm not sure how to take the next step with night weaning.... do I just do anything I can not to feed, and if so, how do I know that she isn't hungry. should I just PU/PD at every waking? If I reduce feeding overnight do you think she will start sleeping for longer?
I don't think she is ready to not feed at all overnight, but I do definitely think that there is a big element of habit in her waking.
There are different ways of night weaning really. The question of hunger is the biggest one to get your head round and to some extent yes she will be hungry, because she is now habituated to feeding overnight. The thing to bear in mind is being a bit hungry isn't dangerous and I wouldn't for a minute suggest going from 4 feeds to none all at once. It's up to you about introducing a dreamfeed - I actually never did one and I'd hesitate to introduce one at this age really, Tracy had babies dropping the dreamfeed by around 8 months once established on solids and if she's not used to it I think there's a risk it may disturb her sleep more than help it.
Five possible ways to do it:
(1) pick a time interval, say 4 hours (I think this is totally reasonable at her age). Note the time of her bedtime feed and then add 4 hours. Say BT feed is at 7pm, 4h later is 11pm. Any wakings before 11pm you use PUPD until she settles all the way back to sleep, including if this takes you all the way past 11pm. So say she wakes at 10.30pm, you PUPD for 30 mins and she is still awake, but you still keep going - don't give up and feed (that just teaches "I protest long enough and I will get fed"). Any waking past 11pm you pick her up, feed immediately and put back down. Note 4 hours later. And repeat. This would give her two opportunities to feed overnight which I would say is adequate provided she is being given sufficient opportunities for milk in the daytime.
(2) pick two times at which you will feed, say the first wakeup 10/11pm and then not again until 5am. Use PUPD for all other wakings.
(3) work on one waking at a time and use PUPD to eliminate it, feeding at other wakings, until that first one is gone. Do the same for the second one etc etc.
(4) gradually reduce time on the breast over a few days (i.e. take her off after less and less time), and then use PUPD as above to eliminate the waking
(5) note the time of her first feed on night 1. Night 2 you do not feed until at least 15 mins later, using PUPD for any wakings that occur before this time. Note what time this first feed now happens. Night 3 add another 15 mins etc etc.
- I really liked this way, and it worked amazingly for DS. Night 1 he woke at 23.15 and I fed. Night 2 he woke at 22.15 and I resettled. I then resettled every 15 mins until 23.15. Went for one more resettle to push the feed just 15 more minutes.....and he woke at 3.30am!!
Anyway just some thoughts there - you can use any combination of them :)
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Thanks jessmum,
So I decided to work on one wake up at a time. It was going really well, she was waking at 1.30 and 4.30 and then up at 7.30. Two days ago I decided to work on the 4.30 wake up, and she went a bit crazy, like proper yelling after about ten mins of pupd. I continued as I didn't want to 'give in' but eventually after about 30-40 mins, had to feed her. I felt really wrung out and mean.
She was so awake she wouldn't go back to sleep and that was it for the day.
Last night, she was much harder to settle than usual and got quite stressed at bedtime. She settled after about 20 mins, but needed pupd again, (for the last ten days she's been settling herself). She then woke 2 hours later and would not settle. She was distraught. I had to feed her and even then she wouldn't settle well. I ended up taking her into bed with me and she slept in with me for the night, feeding frequently. Every time I tried to put her in her crib she went crazy. I felt really bad.
She has fed a lot today and I'm wondering if it's a growth spurt, but it doesn't explain her stress.
What do you think has caused this and do you have any advice?
Thanks, very tired and a bit confused.
J
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Is she teething or perhaps coming down with something?
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Ok. So last night she woke at 11,12.30, 2, 3, 3.30,4.30 and 5.
I only fed at 12.30 and 3.30. The rest of the time I pupd in less than 5 mins and she went back to sleep easily.
I'm starting ranitidine with her today, to see if it might be silent reflux (it's been v difficult to get this from the gp)
BUT I wondered if I am now a prop? Am I having to pupd at every light sleep cycle as she can't put herself to sleep without it? It certainly feels like it....if so, do you have any advice on how to wean off pupd?
Thank you so much for any advice you can give. It's been a long haul and some things are improving as I no longer feed to sleep and she settles herself, but I'm not actually getting any more sleep yet.
I'm really struggling now and have fallen down the stairs once and bumped my car twice in the last ten days. :-(
Thank you. J
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Ps no sign of teething or illness...
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:( (((hugs)))
How are her naps going right now? Could it possibly be OT causing such frequent wakings?
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Hi Jessmum. thank you so much for the advice so far.
She could be overtired...or undertired? I am a bit lost so really appreciate the help.
Can overtiredness cause frequent wakeups like this?
Up until this week, apart from a few really rare occasions, I have only been able to nap her in her sling, or in the car. I am a little suspicious that her nap quality is poor in the car and sling - could this be an issue causing enough overtiredness that she is waking really frequently?
On another note. I finally (I have been asking since she was about 10 weeks old) have been prescribed ranitidine for her to 'test' whether there is an aspect of silent reflux to her frequent night wakings. We started the ranitidine on Saturday - do you know how quickly it works?
We are also on holiday this week and with my husbands help, i have been very strict on awake times and have tried the morning nap in her cot. her awake time is 3 hours. Three mornings now, she has had her morning cot nap, I have done Pick up put down with her grumbling but not full on crying, for about 5 minutes, and she has then slept for 2h. its nuts!! She has literally never done that before. She slept pretty soundly.
Night wakings havent really changed, but today, she literally fell asleep at her high chair, before she ate, before her bath and without her nighttime breastfeed. I sort of woke her and we did a really quick bath and I tried to feed her, but she was too sleepy to even latch on.
Im going to keep an eye on her in case there is an illness behind this behaviour, but is it possible that
a) this is a positive response to ranitidine and she is now comfy enough to fall asleep when she is tired?
b) the cot naps are SO much better than sling naps that there has been a resolution to chronic OTness and she is now falling asleep alone?
She has literally NEVER fallen asleep without considerable effort from me, or a really long wind down time.
Its a bit odd/unusual and I'd really appreciate you opinion. Thank you.
PS her EASY today was as follows:
Up at 6am
E Breastfed 6 am
A play on playmat/dressing etc
Solids: 8.30
S in cot 8.55-10.45
E Breastfed 10.50
A Shopping in town 11-12
Solids 1pm
Breastfed 1.30
Sleep 1.50-3.28 (in the car)
Solids 5pm too tired to eat, eyes closing in high chair
E -usually I would breastfeed her before bed but she fell asleep...despite lights on and lots of effort to get her to feed properly...
Sleep - 6.15
(will see how the night is, but she hasn't eaten properly since 1.30pm, so I think she HAS to be hungry....v weird)
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Up until this week, apart from a few really rare occasions, I have only been able to nap her in her sling, or in the car. I am a little suspicious that her nap quality is poor in the car and sling - could this be an issue causing enough overtiredness that she is waking really frequently?
Yes this could certainly do it. If she is having no good quality sleep in the day, this often leads to poor sleep at night as well.
I have done Pick up put down with her grumbling but not full on crying, for about 5 minutes, and she has then slept for 2h.
This is awesome!!!! It may be a bit of a catch up from a bad night. 3h A time is a little on the shorter end for an 8 month old (have I got her age right?) But hey, 2h naps are great!
Hmmmm looking at today I would suspect illness brewing.....that's super-sleepy on such good naps :( Hope she's ok xx
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Thanks Jessmum.
She is definitely not right today, very crabby and totally refusing her solids. No other obvious signs of illness, but enough that I'm really a bit concerned. I'm going to just monitor her very closely and lots of tlc.
Hopefully nothing major and she will be back to normal soon. I'll also check her A times and maybe keep her awake a bit better when she is back to normal.
Really appreciate the advice so far. It's been a long road.
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(((Hugs))) and hope she's back to her usual self before too long x
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Hi. I'm getting really really desperate.
She's over her temperature and eating and back to normal from that perspective....
Now, I got desperate 2 days ago, to try something as I am so sleep deprived I'm starting to not enjoy life. So I've moved her into her own cot....but the sleep is as bad as ever.
Last night. For example, she woke at 10.30, 10.50, 11.50, 12.05, 12.20, 2.30, 3...and then I lost it and had to do sleep as I'm just exhausted.
I need help. I really really don't want to do controlled crying, but this can't go on. She now naps in her cot for the first nap, puts herself to sleep with a little pick up put down, but screams at every waking. She's on ranitidine, her allergies are relatively sorted, her weight is still being monitored....but has improved.
Is this all due to weight? Do you think I should quit breastfeeding and give bottles?
Is there anyone professional who follows baby whisperer methods that I can pay to come help me?.
I'm really really desperate and friends and family are pressuring me to let her cry now...
Please help
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Hun I think you need to go back to your doctor. It does not sound to me like her reflux/allergies are properly controlled. No baby wakes that often just from 'bad habits' yk? Honestly I really don't feel comfortable advising on any sort of sleep training with a baby who sounds like they have ongoing discomfort. It's just not fair to either of you :'( have you posted over on the colic, reflux and crying board? There's a lot of info there and people who have lived through this and may be able to give you some more insights. So many (((hugs))), I'd fix it for you in an instant if i had a magic wand x
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Hi there, I don't think we've 'met' before, welcome to BW :)
I can feel your exhaustion in your post. It brings back memories of when my DS was a baby and the times I was really struggling with sleep deprivation, I was utterly exhausted with pretty much no one I could rely on for back up. I wanted to stop by with a hug and to say hang in there, easier said than done, I know.
I totally agree with katherine (jessmum) about going back to the doctor. I had a period when mine needed a ranitidine increase and it was the lovely community here who were able to advise me on that. I had a hard time with the doc unfortunately, he said my DS was on the right dose and the max dose possible...he wasn't, he was on approx a quarter of what he needed which I eventually got sorted out. The difference was dramatic to say the least. Whilst we still had our difficult times with reflux, illness, teething and so on, it was manageable because his reflux was managed.
Please please go back to the doctor. I didn't read your whole thread but I saw briefly there was a good sleep of 1.5hr or so a couple of months back, this shows your LO is able to sleep when not in pain, it also shows your LO is able to be sleep trained in a respectful way, a way which does not break the bond of trust. She just can't do it right now the way she is struggling.
With regards to family and friends encouraging you to use a CC or CIO method, I think sometimes people say these things because they want to help an exhausted Mummy who they care about and it is the only way they know to 'solve' the problem of your tiredness, but they are not taking into full consideration the long term effects on your baby.
I'm going to suggest a couple of things:
- tell them you need help, say the words "When are you available to help me?" and book it in. Even if someone can only do a couple of hours child minding for you make a firm date for it and make it happen. Before they arrive write down the feed times and where the nappies are kept, leave it in plain sight. When your helper arrives say "thank you," hand baby over and walk away. Do not make them tea, do not engage them in conversation or let them engage you, do not use the time to put a load of laundry on. Trust that your baby will continue to live for the next two hours and take yourself to bed. Get in lie down and sleep. If you can't sleep just lie there in the dark, rest your body and your mind.
- my second suggestion, more of a plea really, if you get to breaking point and actually begin use of CC, I beg you, stay in the room with your baby, hold her hand. If you are going to let her cry without picking up please at least stay with her. She needs you there.
Lots of hugs, I know this is a really hard time for you xxx
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Hi sending lots and lots of hugs. It is so so tough - I was right there until olly was virtually 18 months before we got him to STTN - it was ALL down to food and him reacting :'(
I have posted on your older post in CRC to ask about your diet to keep that separate to this sleep thread.
If you have only just been prescribed the meds then i would be going right back to the GP and get them to tweak the amounts of they can.
Big hugs, hang in there. our LO is in pain, please don't leave her to cry xxxxx
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Hi Jessmum, creations and buntybear,
Thank you so much for your posts. Im not normally a forum/internet user but i can't tell you how good it is to have some support. I've been totally anti cio so far to the point where I have lost what I thought were good childhood friends over it. When we were in hospital I even had a 'lecture' from one of the paediatric nurses telling me I was a poor mother not to sleep train my baby so it's really hit my confidence over time, and I was starting to doubt myself.
Having your messages has given me a bit more confidence to follow the no cry path. I'm not going to do any cry type training. To be honest, for the past couple of nights I'm just back to feeding whenever she wants, but doing pupd for bedtime and for the first nap which I will consistently do in her cot. Thank you for the confidence boost not to take his step, which I would have really regretted.
I'll call the gp tomorrow. I called the pediatrician on Monday in tears and left a really long message with his receptionist saying I think she is in pain and she's waking every 30-45 mins still/again but as yet I've not heard anything back. She is now just under 16 lbs and even my friends with really poor routines don't get waking so like this...we are under the care of a gastroenterologist and a allergy specialist so maybe I should all the allergy specialist too, but I don't think we will get to see her as she is soooo busy. Her next appt with us is mid November.
My little lady is so happy giggly and smiley most of the time, this poor sleep is such a mystery. Do you ever get babies that are so attached to their mums that sleep can be an issue? (This is my mums theory).... But I think more likely discomfort?
Bunty bear, thanks for the other reply- I'll have a look at it now.
Thanks all of you. Hopefully I'll post in the future with good news to say things have improved.
Xx
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Some times some docs/paediatricians are comfortable to increase a dosage or offer further advice over the phone, even via their secretary if they don't have time themselves. There's no way I would have increased my DS's dose without medical go ahead but I was able to speak to the pedi's secretary, tell her everything and ask for advice on dose. They then got back to me the same day with the new dosage which I could implement immediately rather than wait for official documentation to be posted to my GP etc. It sounds like a good idea to call the allergy specialist and anyone who is involved with the medical care/welfare of your LO.
My little lady is so happy giggly and smiley most of the time, this poor sleep is such a mystery
This was very much like my DS. Each time he saw a health visitor or a doctor (he say several) he smiled at them and was ever so polite and sociable, as a result they (mostly) called him a "happy spitter" and said he didn't need meds for his reflux. They weren't there in the middle of the night when he screamed blue murder for hours on end or couldn't sleep more than 10 or 20 mins, yk? It was only the paediatrician actually who said otherwise based on my answers to her questions rather than whether or not he smiled at her. Plus she ignored his smile and heard him refluxing.
Do you ever get babies that are so attached to their mums that sleep can be an issue?
Props and habits can be formed by mums are carers of course they can but in terms of attachment to their mums IMO the more attached the better, it gives them the confidence that you will always return when they need you and rather than needing you permanently they instead need you less because they are so secure in knowing they are responded to, they don't panic when you leave them because they know they only have to call out and you'll be back.
I think based on the amount of wake ups and the fact your LO has done a longer stretch of sleep in the past heavily leans towards pain. Props might be formed in addition and especially if you have to do everything you can to help her sleep but in my experience my DS was happy and confident to return to independent sleep just as soon as the pain was relieved. the thing is too with pain, they get comfort (and partial pain relief) from Mummy but chances are they also spend a good amount of time just screaming in your face - which is more than just wanting to be picked up.
Im not normally a forum/internet user but i can't tell you how good it is to have some support
Me too. I did try another parenting site for a while when I was first pregnant and until my DS was a few months old but tbh I was never comfortable there. When I found this forum the support I had from the BW community was unlike anywhere else, and that's why I've stuck around for 5 years. It's a special place this :)
Good luck with your calls today x
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I can't thank you enough...last night was equally rubbish, but guess what?
Her ranitidine dose was TOTALLY wrong. The gp gave me a dose that was LESS THAN HALF what it should have been and dosed her for under 6 months, when she is 8.5 months now. I'm SO cross!,
They admitted it and today we are starting on a new dose. I'm waiting for the specialist to ring back re other potential issues, but at least I can now dose her correctly.
They have said twice a day and timing relative to food is unimportant -is this correct? I had heard somewhere that it needs to be before food?
Thanks for the help and prompting me to hassle the doctor. I've been hoping I could trust them up to now, but it turns out you can't.
Fingers crossed it works. Thank you so much
X x
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Oh I am so so happy to read your update - this is a massive change in meds and I really hope this will help her feel more comfortable and so you can feel happier and get the rest you need too. Even if there are additional factors this surely must help, it sounds positive!! :)
I was never really sure what time we were supposed to give the ran meds, it didn't really seem to make a difference I don't think. On the right dose it helped on the wrong dose it didn't.
The gp gave me a dose that was LESS THAN HALF what it should have been
Like mine. He was on about a quarter the dose he should have been on.
I am always grateful to the NHS, but they are only human and can make errors.
FX for you :)
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Gosh - fingers crossed this can settle her poor tummy and allow you all some much needed sleep x
When you do sleep train there will be some crying - don't think that there won't be but if you follow the BW guidelines you will be there supporting your LO and teaching her independent sleep. It will be hard at first as she will have become attached to you but there will be support here for you! And it is 'easier' listening to the cries when you know she is not crying due to pain :'( don't want to frighten you just being realistic!
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Well done for going and getting things checked, really hope this makes a big difference for you xx
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Ok. So I have been doing the correct dose of ranitidine for 5 days now. How quickly should I see a response if silent reflux is an issue? A couple of friends have told me it's not likely to be an issue as reflux goes away at weaning....is this correct?
We had a massive set back as my daughter got a norovirus type tummy bug over the weekend that hubby and I then got and we are still in isolation here. It feels like one thing after another really and I really need a break.
However, last night, we had some changes. She had a rubbish nap in the afternoon, only half an hour, but then at night, slept from 8-1 and 1.10-3. However, she then woke every 20 minutes till morning. Why would we have such a good start to the night, and then such a rubbish end? i keep thinking about it and is there ever a situation with a baby this age, where they are sleepy in the night and not feeding properly, so they keep waking in hunger? Should I try changing her nappy and feeding with the light on at her first waking to see if I can get her to feed more efficiently and sleep for longer? I'm seriously considering stopping breastfeeding to see if bottles help too, but she is really unreliable on bottles and I don't want to create another issue, especially as her weight has been such an issue.
I have tried ringing the specialists we are under. I have called the one 3 times now, the other is on holidays for two weeks. I really don't want to call the gp, as they really have been useless and just think I'm a neurotic first time mum, and it makes me feel rubbish every time I speak to them.
I'm just going to hassle the specialist who isn't on holiday until he speaks to me.
Thanks for any advice.
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Ps the only other thing is that when I feed her overnight it is really hard to keep her awake and she inevitably falls asleep. Do you think this could be the problem? If so, do you have advice on what to do about this? Do I need to wake her up fully lights on etc to keep her awake?
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Really sorry to hear you were/are all poorly :(
The night sounds so much improved considering how bad it sounded before.
My DS was very poorly around 10 months and it took a good while for him to fully recover, he had not had a night feed for a few months by then but suddenly needed night feeds again during his recovery. This was the way he made up for lost calories from his illness. Because their tummies are so little they can only take in so much so if they do need to feed themselves back up after illness they need more feeds for a little while. Now it may not be this but because she has been ill it *may* be this so I would go ahead and feed if she's waking like that even just to see if that's what it is. I wouldn't put the light on though.
That's just my thought on it, others may think differently.
A couple of friends have told me it's not likely to be an issue as reflux goes away at weaning....is this correct?
For some it may be. My DS had silent reflux all the way through weaning though, without the meds he was a mess and solids were well established when his dose of ranitidine needed increasing. He stopped his meds at 2yo and then had to go back on about 3.5yo I think it was (hazy on the dates without looking back through hundreds of thread to look for it). He needed the meds for a shortish period. This happened again, I'm going to guess around 4.5yo and just recently has happened again he is now 5.5yo. He is mostly OFF meds but when the flare up happens he starts waking in the night in pain and after a while I can see the symptoms, hiccups and I can hear him refluxing at times (there is no spit up or vomit) and the first big flare up he was trying to describe to me something in his throat.
The lovely BW community helped me to decide if we needed to try a ranitidine trial after he'd been off it for so long and that's when I discovered that some do need to go back on meds for short periods even as they are growing up. This time (and the last couple) I'm only giving meds once per day and that seems to be enough to keep him settled. He was prescribed twice per day so actually for us I'm finding the small does is enough to manage the level of reflux.
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Gah. The last two nights she has woken 11 and 12 times respectively. I at the end of my tether.....
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Has she only ever been on ranitidine? Perhaps she needs something different?
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Thanks jessmum. I'm going to call the pediatrician on Monday and just keep calling until he talks to me. I think she needs a higher dose and to try omeprazole.
Thank you.
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(((Hugs))), I really hope you get it sorted out xx
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How did the call to the paediatrician go?
I hope things get better soon for you xx
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Hi there,
Thanks for asking. I took some independent advice and upped her ranitidine dose, and immediately went from waking 11/12 times per night to 4 x per night and last night only woke twice. I'm not celebrating yet, as I know that these things are very fragile, but it's a vast improvement and I haven't changed anything other than the ranitidine.
I have left five messages each for the two pediatricians I see, but so far have yet to speak to them. I'm a bit disappointed.
I am hoping to ask for omeprazole (losec mups) as I've heard it's slightly better and easier to give long term, than ranitidine.
I'm crossing fingers and toes that this trend continues. And I'll let you know.
Thank you for the help and support and for encouraging me to follow my instincts when I knew something wasn't right.
J
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Well that sounds wonderful that she is sleeping better with the higher dose.
I am assuming you had a trusted source for the dose increase.
My DS also had a milk thickener, sorry I dont' remember if you are formula or BF but a thickener can be given either way, just given differently. DS's was carobel
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Hi,
Thanks for your reply. Yes, the source was a friend who is a pediatrician and she is now on the right dose I hope.
The pediatrician has also given us losec mups to try to see if that helps alongside the ranitidine.
She only woke 3x the last two nights, which is insane!
Hopefully this trend continues. I'm being very cautious about jinxing myself.
Thank you so much to everyone on here who gave advice and supported us.
X
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Wow 3 times is such a dramatic improvement. I hope you get some much needed sleep too xx
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That's amazing :D Really hope it continues and well done you for trusting your instincts xx
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Hi,
So, we have now been on omeprazole for a week and also ranitidine.....and for the last three nights she's only woken once. I didn't quite know what to do with myself. We haven't changed anything else, so I can only conclude that she has been in pain all this time, which I find really upsetting. But I am so happy that she is comfortable and able to sleep now.
I feel horrifically guilty, looking through my diary, I've been asking the doc if it was silent reflux since she was 6 weeks old and have been batted back every time. I wish I had really insisted, but as a new first time mum, what was I to know? If doctors always say that is isn't silent reflux, it's hard to argue when I'm not a doctor myself. I guess e silver lining is that we got there in the end, and didn't go hardcore sleep training with her. I would have felt horrific if we had taken that path, as there was pressure to do from so many people around us.
I wanted to say an absolutely huge thank you to everyone who gave advice on here...it seems that the gentle sleep training has paid off and now she is comfy we are all getting more sleep. It's early days and I don't want to jinx it, but this has been such a marked improvement.
So if anyone is reading this and really struggling with frequent waking despite following all the 'rules' please see your doctor and ask about silen reflux. No one should have to go through what we went through for so long. There is no reason not to try medications that don't have many side effects if there is evidence enough that silent reflux may be playing a part. I am angry at our doctor for disregarding me as a neurotic mum when I repeatedly asked her about silen reflux. But I just have to move on and get over that. There is nothing I can do to change that now....
But thank you to everyone on here who helped with the sleep and encouraged me to go back and really hassle the doctors until we got what we needed.
Thanks and best wishes.
X
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It's wonderful to hear that your DD is sleeping so peacefully!! :D :D :D
I could have written your post almost word for word. I totally understand your feelings of sadness at the realisation that she was not comfortable, the guilt it brings, the anger and frustration of being treated like a neurotic mum (argh! I used to FUME every time someone said to me "Oh this is your first?" with a tone that meant "I'm going to ignore everything you say because you are crazy". I still get it although these days it's "Oh he's your only one" with a tone that means "You are still crazy and have too much time on your hands having only one kid") and I understand too that being angry doesn't help - you (we) have to move on and be glad that phase is over.
Everything you said is exactly how I felt. The help and support I received here on BW forums was life changing.
The one big thing I learned was that if there is a gut feeling, that "Mummy instinct" which comes from who knows where, it is worth following. I've had that feeling over several things with my DS and never really been able to put my finger on exactly why I felt it, but every single time that instinct has been right although pooh-poohed by medical staff for ages. My approach now is that if I have a feeling I push for attention, if I am proven wrong then that's fine at least I know it has been explored properly, but like I say up to now I have only been proven right. It takes lots of energy to push and to get past those "Oh you are a first time mum" and "oh he is your only child" barriers...but worth it.
Well done you!! Really well done. It takes great strength to keep pushing for help and to remain firm in your beliefs (on gentle sleep training and your choice of parent methods) when there is so much external pressure - you did great honey! :-*
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:D so happy for you!!! Well done mummy xx
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Thank you. :-) :-)
Hoping it continues! Xxxxxxxxx
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Ps creations I totally understand what you mean by 'oh, you are a first time mum' and 'oh, he's your only child' from medical professionals and other adults alike. It's been driving me crazy that just because I'm a first time mum my instincts are disregarded and the medical assumption is that I'm neurotic and crazy and its 'normal for babies to cry'. It certainly made me feel crazy at times, especially with the severe sleep deprivation.
I feel like going on a crusade to stop mums being treated like this when we are already feeling incredibly vulnerable and only too aware that we have a lot to learn. Surely consultations with doctors should be encouraged to avoid illnesses being mis diagnosed or missed altogether, which almost happened to us, thanks to a GP who now admits that she 'doesn't believe in silent reflux'. Pah.
I just need to get over the guilt that I've been asking about silent reflux since my daughter was 6 weeks, but never had the confidence to get really stroppy and push it with the doctors, as I took their word for it that she didn't have it. Now, I have absolutely no doubt. There has been such a HUGE change in her general demeanour and sleep (we still get blips) without changing anything else, there is no way she isn't responding to the medication, and responding well.
I can't thank you all enough. You were my lifeline when no one would listen to me and we were trying to sort this sleep. This forum is worth its weight in gold. Thank you.
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This forum is worth its weight in gold.
It certainly is :)
And I'm sure one day soon you will be supporting someone else here with a similar problem. You will be able to share your experience and help another mum feel confident enough to go back to a GP or be more assertive in her request for a referral. This is our little crusade, right here, empowering parents and helping LOs sleep more comfortably :)
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I'd be very happy to help and hopefully I can as you say.
I'm Happy to be contacted by anyone with questions or issues.
Our sleep is by no means perfect so I'm sure I'll be on these boards in the future, and will keep half an eye out for similar situations. :-)
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That's great :D We really rely on those who've been helped here paying it forward to help others out in similar situations. Please don't wait to be asked either - if you see a post and feel you have something to offer then dive right in!! So glad things are better for you xx
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Hi there,
We are a long way further on, but DD is still waking 3x over night. (some nights are worse, but this is the general rule).
She generally wakes at 11.45 ish and I can pupd her, then at 1 when I feed and then at 5ish when I feed, hoping she will sleep later in the morning.
she is still climbing up the centiles, so is gaining weight but not stable on the charts just yet.
Is it realistic, now she is more comfortable, to try to completely stop night wakings, or should I expect to still be feeding at this stage, especially given her history (allergies, reflux, failure to thrive)?
If it is realistic to stop night feedings, how do I do this? Do i just pupd at each waking to stop it? If she is hungry (either from habit, or real) will she not then wake frequently afterwards?
Thanks for any advice. If i need to start a new thread as this one is getting a bit long, please just let me know.
x
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Is your LO about 9 months now?
I'm not sure if you have said previously if BF or formula?
For now I would continue to feed at night, it's just 2 feeds is that right? Plus an additional NW?
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Hi Creations,
Thanks. She is about to turn 10 months now. :-) I'm happy with two wake ups, so will continue to feed. It's how I stop the other wakings...or do they just go with the territory?
I go back to work and for instance, last night she woke 7x and I'm nervous I won't be able to function. A friend has to.d me that if she is waking overnight she will be chronically sleep deprived and this will be causing her lack of appetite - is this possible?
I've been looking at our routine and am wondering if our morning nap is too long...it's usually 2- 2.5 hours. In the baby whisperer solves all your problems, Tracy says not to let them nap too long...but I can't find what qualifies as too long - do you know?
Thanks so much,
X x x
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Could you post her whole EAS routine for us?
I think a general rule of thumb is not over 2 hours in any one nap whilst still on 2 naps but if we can see your routine we can look if there are issues there x
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Hi,
Thanks. Her routine is generally as follows:
7 up give omeprazole
7.30 E solids
8 A play
9.30 E bottle/breast
10 S asleep
12/12.30 A up and play/activity
1.00 E solids
1.30 A class/swim/park with other babies
3.30 E breast feed
3.45 S sleep
4.45 A activity
6 E solids
7.15 A bath
7.30 bottle/breastfeed
8 asleep
Any advice greatly received. I can't believe we've been trying to work on this since April!!
If her first nap is over 2 hours, should I wake her?
She is teething at the moment and is now waking about 5 x overnight again, but I only feed at 1 and 5.
Recently she has been very difficult to put down for naps and has really screamed...maybe OT? I do wonder if she needs her morning milk closer to her morning solids (ie earlier in the day) and then longer before her first nap, but I usually feed milk immediately before a nap and I'm worried that by not doing that association she might not sleep so well....?
Thanks,
Jess
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ps. could she be transitioning to one nap a day yet? she woke at 7.30 today, if i change her A time to 4 hours, including in the morning (I'm trying this today) and she sleeps for 2 hours from 11 30, she will need a second nap at 5.30 which is very close to bedtime....I cant work out the maths with this one??
Thanks.
xxx
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OK, it's been a long time since this thread started and I think she is about 9.5/10 months now?? Is that right?
If so, my suggestion would be to push her routine a bit so her morning nap comes later (assuming you want to keep a long morning, short afternoon routine) and shorten up the afternoon nap a bit to keep bedtime the same. I think she could well be UT on her current routine as she is getting a lot of daytime sleep for a LO her age. If she is more tired by some longer stretches in the daytime awake, she may be more soundly settled at night (assuming pain is not the issue any more, of course).
I would suggest pushing morning A time to 3h15 in the first instance, then 3h30. Keep the second A at 3h30/45 for now and then see if you need to wake her a bit sooner from the second nap to preserve bedtime.
So for example:
WU 7
Nap 10.15/30-12.30 (wake by 2h mark)
Nap 4/4.15-4.45/5 (wake at 45 mins)
BT 8
I would work towards that and then see what happens to the nights. You may need to push a bit more but start there :)
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Oh yes, it is the early stages of 2-1 (but not time for one nap yet!!)
In the situation you described I would say do:
WU 7.30
Nap 11.30-1.30
(wake at 2h)
Catnap 5-5.30 wake at 30 mins (she may be ok to take this as an UT nap and will be easier to wake)
BT 8
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Hi Jessmum,
Sorry for the slow reply, we were away for a week and the wifi was down in the place we were staying. Thanks so much for the advice. She is now 10 months. It's really handy to know how I can play it with the 2-1 transition. Again today she woke at 8, and I struggled to fit in two naps. But with your advice now I'll start waking her if her first nap is a bit long and look at an a time adjustment.
Thanks so much for the ongoing help. It's getting better but very slowly!
Thanks, x
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Keep going, honestly I can say once both of mine settled on one nap it was so much easier, you've done most of the really tough sleep bit already :D
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Thanks Jess mum.
It's gone a bit downhill again. She is back to waking hourly, even with pick up put down persistence.
Do you think I should go back to the specialist? It's difficult as he now won't give me a consult as he says she is fine, and keeps telling me to do controlled crying. BUT I do have private medial, and could use this to see someone else?
Agh agh agh.
Do you just get some babies who don't sleep, even if given the perfect conditions?
Thanks.
Jess
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Personally I would use the private cover if you have the option, even 'not great sleepers' tend not to wake hourly yk? The only time we have had wakings that often is with illness or pain. When was the last meds change/increase? Have you added in any new foods to her diet? Signs of allergies etc?
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Thanks Jessmum. I really appreciate the advice.
Just plodding along a bit here, had one amazing surprise night where she woke once, and now back to 5x a night...but we are persisting. I've been particularly tired recently, so have resorted to feeding at every wake up overnight. Her wake ups are totally random, never at the same time each night.
I am also back to work, so she has started nursery 2 days per week.
I think the issue is partly that she is now taking a fair amount of calories overnight, and therefore not eating solids properly, or taking as much milk as she should be taking during the day. At nursery last week she refused all food including her milk, the whole day.
Do you think this could be the cause of the frequent night waking so? If so, Do you have advice about how to tip this balance, so she is taking more calories in the day rather than at night? She has taken to batting the bottle away and just throwing her solids on the floor, with is very disheartening.
Do I just choose 2 times to fed overnight, and pupd for the rest?
Any advice gratefully received. I realise I have been a bit high maintenance on this thread, but I honestly have no where else to go. I'd do ANYTHING for a bit more sleep, apart from cio/cc.
Thank you.
Jess
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Hi - Yes I think she is hungry over night and you don't want to crete a habit on feeding at every wake up :P I think your suggestion to feed twice is a good one, maybe at 11pm ish (like a DF) and 1 other?
How is your elimination diet going?Are you still off soy and milk? What foods is she eating now? How does she seem at the NWs? Olly would wake with awful wind when it was food related! Teeth are going to be causing some discomfort at this age I would have thought too :P ::)