BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: kcamelia on April 07, 2006, 14:52:35 pm
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I'm sorry if there is already a thread for this, but I did a search on scratching and couldn't find anything helpful within a few minutes. My 4.5 lo is big for his age: about 17 pounds (yes, I'm from the US ;). When he gets tired (overtired?), one arm begins flailing like a windmill and smacking him in the belly/groin. He uses the back of his hands to rub his eyes (this happens almost all the time, not just when tired), and scratches the sides and back of his head severely. So, we swaddle him. The trouble is that he is so big, his miracle blanket (truly a miracle for smaller babies) doesn't work anymore. He wakes up and starts talking. I get up, make a bottle, and go to him--takes about five minutes. During that short window, he gets out of his swaddle and scratches his head unmercifully. A few nights ago he scratched a circle about a cent in diameter on the back of his head. So, I don't see that we have any choice but to swaddle. I'm just concerned that he will get overheated as summer approaches (we live in the midwest where it is often unpleasantly humid in the summer). I've been using a cotton bedsheet cut in pieces to mimic a miracle blanket, and he doesn't seem to get out, but he's still sweaty. I can't put him in short sleeves or just a diaper because without the friction from his sleeves, he wiggles out of anything. Does anyone have experience with babies in warmer climates? I know overheating is a factor for SIDS, but surely babies have survived in the Southern Hemisphere, for example. It's not like AC has always existed (we don't have it!). Does anyone else have such a scratcher or a baby this big that needs swaddling? His ability to get out of the swaddle and scratch his head so badly even when he doesn't sound unhappy makes it hard for me to leave him when he first wakes to see if he can soothe himself back to sleep. Also, because of this, it rarely ever happens, anyway! Any advice would be much appreciated!!
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Hi, just wondering if your lo has eczema? Even if he hasn't you could try filing his nails with an emery board - painstaking, but it makes a big difference. I expect he has outgrown scratch mits......we used to use cotton socks, which works until they are able to pull them off......you can stitch them into the sleeves of a top (really just for sleeping, as if they are constantly worn it can cause developmental delay), but you may feel this would make him too hot.
what about a bigger sheet of muslin - which would be finer than cotton, but which you could wrap around and around?
Anyone any other ideas on the swaddling?
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My dd was about that size too when she was 4.5months - in actual fact I think she may have been bigger. I stopped swaddling her when she was around 8 weeks, she used to overheat in it terribly and spend all her time trying to get out of it - it was a bit of a nightmare to be honest. Someone recommended a lightwight sleeping bag and that worked a treat.
I think at the age you dc is at now plus the size of him he will manage to get his hands free anyway so whether you swaddle him or not he'll scratch himself. Like chell has suggested - try filing his nails, I do that with Mia because she has scratched her face to pieces in the night before to the extent where she's drawn blood! She also scratches herself when she's tired. I must admit I'm not brilliant at reading her sleepy cues - mainly because she fights sleep so she tends to be ok one minute and then a huge meltdown the next.
Does he scratch himself at nighttime and nap time. I'm just wondering if you may be setting yourself up for problems somewhere down the line by giving him a bottle. Do you have a winddown routine for bed/naps? Do you know about Traceys 4s routine - that may help ds winddown for sleep and reduce the arm flailing if he knows whats coming.
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We tried not swaddling and putting him in a sleep sack about three weeks ago, when he started getting out of every wrap. He had terrible trouble settling (groin-smacking, eye-rubbing, and scratching) and would draw blood in 10-15 places, scratching large, coin-sized surface areas of skin off of his scalp. Then we tried just swaddling one arm like Tracy suggests, thinking that he would like to suck his hand. But, we always had to lay him down on the arm that was not swaddled, and he did not sleep well on his side (diaper always leaked, woke if he rolled onto his back). Then we tried the Aussie swaddle, but I couldn't seem to get it tight enough, and he easily got out and scratched himself.
For some reason, his night-wakings have sky-rocketed since I started EASY, and I don't know why. He's actually eating more at night than during the day now (I posted that problem in bottle feeding). I have him on a naptime and bedtime ritual, he doesn't go to daycare, and I stay home all day and night keeping him on schedule. I am going a little crazy. At this point, he won't go back to sleep at night without a bottle, so I am trying to phase at least two of the three out. I can't eliminate night feedings entirely until he's eating 25-30 ounces during the day again. Believe me, I wish I wasn't feeding him three times a night!
We haven't tried mittens because I thought he might choke on them (sucks his hands like a champ) and anytime he can grab fabric with his hands, he rubs it on his eyes, and it is more abrasive than the backs of his hands. Every day his eyes get very red and I can see all of the veins around them; do you think I should worry? My doctor could care less; I don't know if I like him.
I think he is overtired all day long because he is waking so much at night, and most of his naps are only 35-45 minutes. About every other day his morning nap will be two hours, and those days are much better as far as rubbing, scratching, and flailing.
The good news is that, thanks to the rituals, most of the time I can put him down drowsy and walk away, and he'll fall asleep on his own. This was not possible before; he would only sleep in his swing. I am counting my blessings!!
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hi again
Yes, I have a scratcher, drawing blood the lot!! I have had him to the doctors and we where given a cream. I only went cold-turkey on his 'swaddle' last night. Up until he was 4 months old I was using a blanket, however he kept breaking out and I would have to gt up in the middle of the night and re-swaddle.
I then decided after someone gave me an idea, to put in his sleeping bag and swaddle his arms only. To swaddle his arms only;
Put him in his gro bag/sleeping bag
Fold a blanket diagonally so it becomes a triangle.
Position the long side where his shoulders are and lie him down on top of the blanket.
There should be a piece of blanket at either side of his arms now.
Take a piece of blanket and place it over an arm and secure it smoothly under his body do the same for the other arm.
You should have one baby in a gro bag with secured arms by his side.
Another suggestion is;
If like Calum he had one hand that he predominantly scratch with and caused damage, I use to keep that one swaddled and leave the other one free for naps. I then started to introduce a soft tot that he could cuddle with the spare arm rather then scratch.
HTH
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Hi there
Just curious about the miracle blanket. My dd is almost 6 months and has been swaddled until about 2 days ago. We went cold turkey. But when we did swaddle, we used the miracle blanket. She outgrew the foot portion so we didn't put her feet in there anymore, but just used the top portion to swaddle her arms.
Is it that your lo has outgrown the foot portion only because of length? If so, you could still use it for his arms. That is what we did.
HTH.
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So it sounds as though he is doing this because he is overitred, have you looked at pages 79-88 SOTBW? maybe if you really focus on his behaviours, you will be able to pick up on some less obvious sleepy cues, so that he is not overtired by the time you put him down. Jacobs' window was really short, and I would have to watch him like a hawk, and act really fast.
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I forgot to say before that yes, he has ecxzema flare ups, and we got a cream from the doctor that gets rid of them fast. That doesn't seem to be the only reason for the scratches, though.
I have tried to find earlier sleepy cues, but honestly, he exhibits overtired signs the second he wakes and is unwrapped (rubbing eyes, arms still flailing). I just can't get him back to sleep (here he is now!).
We used only the arm portion of the miracle blanket for a while, too, but the inner flaps don't seem to be long enough. He sure gets out of it!
I might try the lovey to cuddle with one arm free, but I'm so afraid of the scratching when he wakes, especially if I'm trying to give him a few minutes to settle again on his own (since he only sleeps for 45 mins at a time).
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just a quick thought - luke's a scratcher too - and we've recently tied the problem mostly to an egg allergy. there are some other mystery factors at work, but changing his diet has helped wonders.
could your lo be allergic to something in the formula??? (seemed like you were bottle feeding - if you are bf, maybe it's something you're eating that's bugging him)
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Well, I asked the doctor about changing his formula, and he said it wouldn't matter. Like I said, I'm not sure I like him.
I am definitely going to take Chell's advice of filing his nails with an emery board, and maybe it's impossible to swaddle him so that he can't get out but isn't hot. I may just have to let him scratch a little. It's so hard to see them, but he doesn't seem to mind, they don't scar, and they heal quickly.
Thanks for all of the suggestions!
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I think Jaime has a valid point. Don't give up about trying to work out what is going on here. It does sound as though there may be some other reason behind the scratching. Jacob suffered very bad eczema, but even now, although it is under control, I still have to moisturise his skin - all of it, even though the eczema only affects a few parts now - to make sure he is comfortable. I know that you said his cream works well, which is fine if it does, but I know that some of the creams Jacob was prescribed worked very well at first, but actually irritated his skin- due to the preservatives in it. He was better off with ointments and emolients.
Often protien foods can be an allergen, such as egg, dairy, beans,peas,lentils etc.
What about swaddling, but using a potable air conditioner in his room?
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I never found out the issue behind it, even after trips to the doctors.
He would be playing happily then go into a daze and we would watch his hand going to the side of his head and dig in. He actually took out gouges one night and he was covered in blood when I went to get him the next morning.
I now go for damage limitation, nails are cut as soon as they start to appear and I massage his head with his cream during his last bottle feed. I have only recently had the courage to stop swaddling him.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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We have a head-scratcher here! He has been unswaddled for 6 months now, but still wears pj's with the hands covered. For a while we only had one outfit for bed, but I just found a Carter's outfit that will fit up to 20 pounds. So we still just keep his hands covered.
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I sewed some socks onto one of his sleepers and tried him with one hand unswaddled but covered and the other wrapped up tight. He had a harder time than usual settling for his nap, so I went up and wrapped them both, and he fell asleep shortly after. I might try letting the right hand free instead, next time. He just rubs his hand, covered or not, over and over and over his forehead and eyes and it wakes him up.
How has Callum been since you stopped swaddling? I'm wondering if Hugo won't get used to it if I never try it. I'd like to stop swaddling if possible because he seems to like sucking his hands, right up until he realizes he has to go to sleep. Then they just move straight up to rub on his eyes and he cries if I try to stop him or put them in his mouth.
I think it is a result of being overtired, I really do. Maybe I'm wrong, though . . .
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Hiya,
Give him time to get used to the lovlie for a few days swaddled, then I would start to take his less dominant or less scratchy hand out and give him the lovlie to cuddle for naps.
I think that possibly the time you have tried to unswaddle he was over tired. I always put Calum down about 10 -15 mins before nap time (at them moment his A time is 3hrs) or as soon as he starts to rub and moan (tired signs). He goes in his grobag with his lovelie and his muscial light show on to watch. By this time he is sleepy and nods of with his ted. I just decided to go codl turkey becasue he did so well at nap times I left him unswaddled over night. I really thik it was begining to frustrate him :-\
I will post a picture ...
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Lauren, just had to say that is the CUTEST picture!
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thanks ;)
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I was about to say the same thing! :D
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It really is cute to see how it could be!
I wish I could put him down when he isn't overtired, but lately he starts and ends each day that way. He's been waking up so much at night that he isn't well-rested first thing in the morning. And then he takes 45 min naps, so he wakes tired and cranky. It's a challenge to get him to last 1 hr or 1.25 hrs before he has to have another 45 min nap. Short naps make for long days!
I will start giving him a lovey tomorrow, while he's still swaddled. Today's pretty much shot (45 min naps all day), so I'm just going to swaddle him tonight and put him to bed early. I really need to work away from that, though, because I think the swaddling is frustrating him, too. Congrats to those who are making it work without swaddling!
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my 5mo lo is similar but to a much lesser extent. he slept for 11 hours last night (first time ever), had his first nap 1.5hrs after waking, slept for 2 hrs, and started flailing about half an hour after he got up and was like that for the rest of the day. i think he had such a good night because he had taken all his naps early in the day and i (again for the first time ever) got him to take a second catnap about an hour before bedtime, so he wasn't overtired when he got there. i'm starting to realise his window must be very short, and that i must be missing it quite often when trying to extend his awake time. he also scratches and i keep his nails short, but he seems to only do it on the side his eczema is on (though it looks like reflex to me - it just might be that the eczema makes the skin bleed more easily. if i remember rightly scratching is supposed to a tired/overtired sign).
if your lo is only sleeping for 45mins at a time i'm sure he's overtired. if he cries you should be able to use pu/pd to extend his naptimes and that would probably help with the night wakings as well (unless there's something else going on? eg teething? hunger? etc). i haven't been able to use pu/pd (he hardly ever cries) but we have been going back into his room when he wakes, tucking him back in and telling him it's nigh nighs time (every couple of mins if he's grizzly, every 10-15 if he's just babbling). he seldom goes back to sleep but it has in general extended the amount of time he sleeps for before he wakes. i've read references to other posts about "fighting the 45 min nap monster" - i'm not sure where they are but if i find them i will let you know.
HTH
lauren, i see that calum has a teddy as a lovey - does he ever roll about with it? i want my lo to have a lovey so i can take his dummy off him but he rolls about so much i'm scared he'll get in trouble with it. (he's started sleeping on his face lately - scarey but it doesn't seem to bother him much)
sarah
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Sarah the teddy is really soft, it is the KALOO brand - he sleeps with it on his head as well ::) When he is older he will be so embarraced, becasue I have pictures :P
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Yes, flailing all the live-long day! Hugo only lasted 40 mins this morning. His window is definitely short.
Most of the time he doesn't have an excema outbreak, but he still scratches mightily. He has started scratching around his ear absent-mindedly while he has his bottle. I think alot of the scratching is probably reflex/tired, but I'm going to keep him extra-moisturized just in case. I'm also going to put him down for a nap every hour or 45 mins if I have to.
I've tried to extend naps with pu/pd, but it just tortures him. It only worked once, and it was really hard on me the one day I did it for every short nap (4-5 each day). I don't think I can do it again, especially because I've read so many postings saying some babies just take short naps. It seems so pointless and stressful for both of us!
Question: what is a dummy? I've seen several people mention it, but I have never heard of it.
Thanks!
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dummy is a pacifier
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Lauren your LO is so cute. At what age can you give your lo a lovey to sleep with? I would like to try that when it's appropriate. My dd never had one and I am thinking if she did she would be able to sleep better by herself. She has always wanted me with her. That is a whole other issue in itself.
Jennifer
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thanks lauren - i will look out for that brand.
kcamelia - i think if your lo only needed short naps he would seem a lot less tired during the day. try the other technique i mentioned - taught to me by another bw mum who found pu/pd only upset her lo more: retuck him in, tell him it's sleepy time or nap time or whatever it is you tell him when you put him down for a nap, and then leave the room. do it every few minutes as necessary. it does take a while to work, but we've only been doing it for a couple of weeks now and we've made progress already. if you want to know more, PM me, or i can put you onto the bw who taught it to me...
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I think I could try that. He actually took two 1.5 hour naps today, so maybe it isn't that far off, anyway. Do I let him cry a little and check back at intervals? He might babble to himself some, but he'll probably cry. (I don't know how to PM.)
Despite the sleep he rubbed his eyes an awful lot. So frustrating!
He used to use a "dummy," but it became a prop so he went cold turkey without it a few weeks ago. I tried introducing it again to extend the naps, but he won't even consider it anymore. It's probably just as well.
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If he is crying because he needs you - hugher pitched then go to him.
If he is MANTRA crying then don't go, a mantra is like Waa, Waa, Waa, the same pitch and tone.
Don't leave him to cry it out or try controlled crying when it is a 'cry for need', you will only break his trust.
Well done about the longer naps.
the Mantra cry is;
...an odd burst of a cry which most babies do as they are settling down. We don't pick up with a mantra cry. Instead, we hold back to see if the child can settle herself. We do pick up with a genuine cry, because its your babies way of saying "I have a need that has to be met".
Each mantra cry is individual, get to know your babies mantra cry sounds like. You'll see it when she's physically overtired, she'll blink and yawn, and her leg and arms fail if she's overtired. She'll also do a kind of "waa.....waa...waa...."sound, like a mantra that repeated over and over, the pitch and tone is the same throughout. It does not sound the same as a genuine cry, which escalates in volume. - TBW -SAYP p235
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it took me a while to figure out the PM thing too. you click on the little blue "IM" bubble underneath people's pictures and then you can send an email directly to them without it showing up on the post thread.
how i've been doing it is that if he's babbling i'll go in every 10-15 mins to retuck him in, but if he's crying i'll go in every 2 mins or so. if he's babbling he'll usually get around to sleeping in his own time, and what you're doing is teaching him that it's not time to get up yet and that he should go back to sleep in the meantime. if he's crying, you're still teaching him the same thing, but you're also teaching him that you're going to come back to him as long as he's upset (this helps to maintain trust), but you're also going to leave him alone to get on with going back to sleep. that said, you do need to make sure first that there's nothing else wrong such as discomfort or pain.
it will probably get worse before it gets better - i'm certain your lo will cry. but if you are persistent and keep doing the same thing over and over he will figure it out. aidan cried only one afternoon when i started out doing this, and i can tell you it was pretty hard going. he was used to me rushing in as soon as he woke up, and he got pretty cross that i wasn't doing that any more and that when i did come in i left again straight away, but since then he's started going back to sleep again sometimes, and when he does the time he's been awake for has lessened, so there's definite progress. you just have to be prepared to feel frustrated, do the same thing every time and remember that you're trying to teach him better habits.
good luck! :)
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You're probably right; the quote above clearly states the BW approach. I agree that the mantra cry is hard to figure out at first, too, but I think I know it now. It sort of sounds more like yelling than crying, and he doesn't tear up when he does it.
I have sewn socks onto his shirt at night. I still swaddle him, but when he gets out, he can't scratch himself. His eyes seem much better this morning since he didn't rub them all night long. I've been putting aquafor on him; does anyone know a better ointment/lotion to use for eczema-prone skin?
I've also been watching him really closely for sleepy signs, and I think I'm getting better. I think his window is about 40 mins. Can that be right, even after a 1.5 hour nap? He doesn't fuss as much at naptimes or bedtime now.
I just won't be able to swaddle him forever. Tracy mentions people doing it up to 7 or 10 months, I think, but it's becoming physically impossible. And since he can get out, I'm afraid the blanket will get over his face.
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Hiya
Yes the mantra is hard to figure, I am glad you have it now.
Glad to hear his eyes are better, we also use a special bath oil prescribed from the doctors and dove soap. Anything else is too harsh. Do you use any Johnson's products?
Any blanket you use try a light weight one, if your not already using a gro'bag or a sleeping bag - it may be worth a shot. ???
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We've been using a lavendar bath wash from Gerber, I think. Maybe too drying? Is Johnson's too drying?
I'm just not brave enough to stop swaddling yet. He's actually napping and sleeping at night--I'm afraid to mess with it!
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We have been prescribed Dermol 600 from our doctors. I have read a few posts that mention johnson as being an iritant for ezcema, another tip is possibly only bathe every other day as the water dries the skin out. Also pat the skin and use a moisturing emolient after.
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Well, I reswaddled my ds last night but just did upper body. I think the reason he was breaking loose was because he was actually kicking it loose and making the top part loose on the miracle blanket. He is getting too long for it. It worked really well.
I have been fortunate with my ds, he has kind of oily skin and it doesn't dry out. I bathe him every night and use lotion on him. He loves the lotion massage. My dd on the other hand, we could not bathe her every night. She definitely had eczema and still does. Only on her upper arms and cheeks.
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Just like to say that I agree with Lauren. Any kind of soap products can cause irritation. I also use Dermol 500 - as a soap and as a shampoo. Johnsons products are harsh, and I wouldn't even use the shampoo. Before Jacob's bath I use hydrocortisone on the bad patches. Then during his bath I put in Oilatum into the water, use the Dermol as a wash, then gently massage the areas where you can see the eczema with 'Epaderm', which is a greasier emmollient and is absorbed more deeply. After he comes out, I apply the Epaderm again (yes again! ::)) to the bad areas before I dry him and then finish up applying 'Doublebase Gel' after patting him dry - which has a lovely cool feel, and is easy to apply. When he was little and the eczema severe, I needed to moisturise his skin at least every 2 hours.
I'm not sure of Aquafor, but it sounds like a water based or aqueous cream, which does not moisturise the skin particularly well. It may be worth trying out one of the others under you Dr.s instruction.
If things are going well, I'd persevere with the swaddling and routine, sounds as though you are doing well! :D
Oh yes, just make sure the socks are cotton, and all of his clothing is 100% cotton too, any other fibres are irritating. You can get tubegauze/ tubegrip from the Dr.s/chemist, which could be stitched onto sleeves or cut into fingerless mittens...this doesn't irritate either.
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Chell, that sounds like quite a skin care regimine! I don't think I've ever paid that much attention to my own skin, even when I was on the market. ;) I've looked up some of these products, but they don't seem to be available in the US. I've put a call in to my doctor to find out if I need a prescription for them to order from Canada or the UK. Aquafor was his recommendation, and it is basically petroleum jelly, and that just doesn't seem right to me.
Just wanted to share some happy news: last night I was out (at therapy, boy do I need it), and my dh had to put Hugo to bed. He had smashed his finger pretty badly over the weekend (dh, not Hugo), and so he couldn't swaddle him well enough to keep him from getting out. So, he gave up and put him down without it.
Guess who slept soundly last night? He still woke up at 345a to feed, but he seemed much happier then and this morning when I got him at 8a. I think we've passed the hard part! He still has to have socks on his little hands, but he didn't rub his eyes out. Victory!
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Hey, brilliant news 8)
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:D Well done you!! :D
Yes the drs' (G.P.s) which I saw always prescribed the same stuff, which didn't help. It was when I insisted on a referral to a skin specialist that I got the different creams, I guess it jsut depends on how bad it is. Jacob used to be covered all over his body, and I would go in in the morning to find the sheets covered in blood. Now, thankfully he is so much better, just a few small patches. He has alternative therapy too, I think it's the combination which keeps him well.
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Congratulations on the "un" swaddling! I know how great it feels to get rid of that swaddle a still get a decent nights rest ;D ;D
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Maybe I spoke too soon. Last night was awful. He woke at 3 for a bottle and could not go back to sleep. He was inconsolable for two hours before I finally swaddled him again. After I wrapped him, put him in his crib, and patted him on the back for a few seconds, he was out. Then I felt really guilty for waiting two hours, but I was so afraid that I would undo all the progress we had made away from swaddling. I can't believe that letting him smack himself in the groin until he is hysterical is progress, though. He is unswaddled for a nap now, with no protests, so maybe he will just need it again from time to time. He has had a really hard time going back to sleep at night lately, swaddled or not.
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Just so ya don't feel so bad - My babe is 8.5 mos and still swaddled. She doesn't scratch, but she flails and chews on her hands 'cuz of all her teeth and grabs her ears and hair, etc. . . she has been teething straight since 4 months with a full 8 teeth currently. We are still trying to figure out how to get her off the swaddle. We try one arm out every few days and she's up all nap crying and then we go back to it 'cuz she needs the sleep. We may try cold turkey but I don't know if that gives them the full idea, so I'll get back to you on that.
Also - I have a friend whose kids all have allergies to corn and dairy (even corn syrup in candy) and whenever they eat it they get really bad eczema flareups-could be the prob with scratching. You could try an elimination diet (for you if breastfeeding, or for your Lo if not) and see if you get results. Check the internet for how tos. Good luck!
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Thanks for all of the tips! I am bottle-feeding and he only eats applesauce, prunes, and cereal. When I started pears, the eczema flared, so I stopped. I'm not sure if pears will do it, but . . .
Last night was the best in weeks. I think it was the sleep positioner (wedgies) we bought yesterday. He can roll out of it if he wants, but if he's tired, he just lies on his extra-crazy arm (the left) and crashes. We will swaddle if we must, but I just know it bugs him some. Can't wait for teeth! :P
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Just had to say I love your piccy - so cute all swaddled up, looks like he likes it really!
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Thanks. ;D He definitely used to like it, but he has really progressed since we stopped. I think it was affecting his overall mood. He is much more pleasant to be around these days. And, surprise, surprise, he hardly scratches at all, with no coverings on his hands for two days now. I think I was just being too controlling and he needs his freedom! His A times are even extending a little. Thanks for all of your help!
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:) WELL DONE KCAMELIA! :)
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!