BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: Ireps on September 09, 2006, 15:55:40 pm
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Hi everyone,
my LO is 10 weeks old and still has the same feeding and sleeping patterns as he did when he was a week old.
I posted on the prop board that we are finally getting him to sleep without rocking and carrying him but the naps only last 40 minutes or so because he eats every two hours.
so for exampe, this morning he fed at 9am, we played for 30 minutes or so, then we started to wind him down by bouncing rocking him cuddling for 10 miuntes and then playing the sound machine for 10 minutes, he was asleep by 10 (BY HIMSELF yah! I showered!!)
and up on the dot at 11 starving...
I'm at a loss on what to do, how to do it... :-[
I'm not sure if I should post this here or on the EASY board? if i need to repost please let me know
thanks so much for your help and input and for having these boards!
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he wakes up hungry...I'm not sure how I would add time...I dont ever wake him and I often try to get him to sleep again but he wont have any of it..
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hmmm...i'm not sure i want to schedule feed though if he is crying and hungry...
have other moms done this?
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Yes, I did it when my lo was 6 weeks old. I just added 15 minutes here and there when I could and eventually I was at 2.5, then 3 hours. You do need to be flexible and listen to their needs, that's why EASY is considered a routine and not a "schedule". I remember we were on 3 hour in the morning and as the day went on the time between feeds shortened to 2.5 hrs. Add a cluster feed and a dream feed in the evening as these help as well. When bfing we have to remember it's not like ff, we can't "measure" our output and not everyone makes the same quantity of breast milk and not all los drink the same quantity (stomach sizes do vary!), that's why it is important to be flexible.
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that's why it is important to be flexible.
I would definitely agree with this advice. The beauty of BW is that you devise a pattern based on your own LO and their needs and what they are telling you. And hopefully you can find a way to match this with what works for your family too. It is a routine not a schedule as first time mom says. Don't feel badly about your situation - it can change and a surprisingly large amount of bf mummies feed every 2 - 2.5 hours at the beginning.
I would caution you against stretching him too far as very hungry babies can feed less effectively (they are sometimes described as having a 'more chaotic latch') and in doing so can also take in additional air/gas/wind and become frustrated quickly. In a worst case scenario they can become so desperate that their ineffective latch prevents your breasts getting the proper stimulation they need to develop their supply. I think you could certainly experiment with adding some time as suggested by starting with 5 minute intervals and see what feels right. If you are trying to stretch him then consider what might fascinate him like music, new touch sensations etc. But take baby steps - even 2 minutes a day certainly adds up.
I would also agree with considering adding in a cluster feed in the evening and a dreamfeed. It's an unusual time to start them but it might help in your situation.
Your breasts are also used to producing the amount they do at the moment so you could also consider pumping at the end of feeds to try and develop your supply and ensure there's a little more for him there. You could also have a go with a little bit of EAEASY to try and get him to take larger quantities and have longer naps - then he might break out of the cycle himself.
It's also relevant as to whether you are single-sided feeding or double-sided. Which are you doing? Also how long is his actual feeding time - does he break off naturally himself?
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thanks so much for your responses...I have noticed that he will have about two feedings a day that have streched beyond the two hours. I have always done single side feeding...what I have noticed in the last three weeks though is that my little one only feeds for about 5 minutes :o and will not take more no matter what I try, infact if I try to encourage him to eat more he gets very agitated. (which is why i wonder if i will be able to cluster feed---he only seems to eat when he wants)
however he sems to be gaining weight steadily...doctor wasnt worried, he is 12llbs, 7oz and was 6lbs 18oz at birth.
so confusing.
any suggestions on cluster feeds?
thanks again
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and how can I feed him more amounts...I have tried to extend feeds but he starts to cry and fuss if i keep him at the breast after he has had his 5 minute snack.
my lactation consultant was no help in this regrad.
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It's possible that he's getting all he needs in that short time, especially if he's feeding frequently. If your doc's not worried and he's gaining weight well then I wouldn't worry too much. I always did the "wet diaper count" when my dd was younger, I always counted her wet diapers (6 per day) as I often worried if she was getting enough, it's hard when you can't see how much breast milk they take!
As for the single side feeds, I would encourage him to start feeding both sides as when he's older/bigger he will probably need both sides and this would increase your supply. If you single side feed and get to 3 hrs then your breasts are going 6 hours between feeds and this is rather long to go. If he won't currently take from both I would start pumping the other side until he does take both.
If you're feeding every 2 hours you kind of are cluster feeding. Once you go to 3 hours I would keep the cluster feed at 2 hours and add the df. If he has 2 feeds that stretch longer than 2 hours you are on a modified EASY with regards to feeds.
How many times does he feed? Perhaps post your routine because by the sounds of it, if 2 feeds are longer than 2 hours and the others are 2 hours I think you're doing fine (considering his age) but it would help to see your routine.
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My baby is 4.5 months and is just now in the last few weeks going 3 hours between feeds. I absolutely think that if your baby is hungry, feed him! It's hard at times yes. I agree that you can maybe stretch it a little at a time, but I would work first on getting to 2.5 hours. And maybe do it 5 minutes at a time, rather than 15. Maybe also try a little wake to sleep for naps and see if you can get those naps extended a little bit??
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i'll try and post my routine tonight...
thank you again for taking the time out to help me.
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could you send me links on cluster feeding and dream feeding..i think I want to df tonight if possible. I dont get much when I pump but i have about 3oz.
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Here is the df info, from the FAQ section:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65750.0
As for cluster feeding, it would be feeding every 2 hours in the evening, which is what you are doing anyway. So, as you extend the time between feeds, don't extend the evening ones. So, when you get there it would be something like feeds at 7, 10, 1, 3:30, 5:30 top off at 7 and bed. Df at 10
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thank you..I think I am going to try easy tomorrow, on a 2 hr, 2.5hr schedule and then i will post about my day and my schedule here. right now it is all over th eplace esp in the late afternoon evening....bedtime is also later for us because my dh doesnt get home till 8:30.
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so here is our schedule...schedule being used very loosely of course.
LO is usually up by 6:30 and will not feed upon getting up, I have no idea why so he will strech and play for a bit, then I feed him, we have some more playtime and i try and put him down by 8. He will sleep to about 9, eat for not more than 10 minutes, have a great play time and then back to bed until about 11:30...after that though he is all over the place. It is very hard getting him to sleep between 1-5. He usually will not sleep w/o me constantly rocking or holding him. so my afternoons are so unpredictable.
from 6-8 he will have a good long nap and then a long strech of sleep from 10 onwards to about 1. and then unfortunately he is up every hour and a half.
I have in the last few days tried ot strech feedings to 2.5 hours. it has worked sometimes...other times it has been frustrating for both LO and me.
I am trying so hard to implement EASY because I need the "Y" time.
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hang in there Ireps...I was you a short while ago...our 3 1/2 month old ds has had a newborn schedule until just this week...and i'm not ready to celebrate for fear that i will jinx our new nighttime sleep!!! i have had a hard time conforming to the 3 hour easy...have felt inadequate :P...our baby needs to eat every 2 1/2 hours...he's simply hungry...and when we give a bottle instead of bf he only eats 3 oz. max. he is almost 4 mo. old... :-\ my dh and i do not know what to make of that??? can only assume he's taking more from breast and we are just happy if he's eating during the day and not all night long (which he was until just this week). it seems he has become a big boy almost overnight so don't fret...i know it's hard but any day now your lo will have a big developmental leap! :)
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i had a larger post and i'm not sure where it went??? but the gist was...hang in there...any day now your lo will make a developmental leap. even if bf, eventually he will go longer and sleep longer...i've been there (with a 3 month old and a newborn schedule) ;)
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My ds is on a 2-2.5 hour EASY at 3.5 months. so you are not alone. I am glad I found this post. I was doing my best to try to extend by 15 minutes. But he is waking earlier and earlier from his naps and has started to wake at night more so obviously something is not working. Maybe I should go to trying to extend by only 5 minutes. I'll be interested to see how it all goes with you!
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I wish I had a more positive update but lo is really posing a challenge for me and dh. :'( I am part of a mommy and me group and most kids are sleeping at least 4 and 5 hour streches while we are still up every hour or so feeding and trying to soothe our crying 12 week old.
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I'm not sure if you've already tried this - have you been using breast compression?
Have a look at this handout:
http://www.kellymom.com/newman/15breast_compression.html
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Have you ruled out an allergy? My dd was up all night until 4:30 am, then she'd pass out for 4-5 hours. From 9pm until 4:30 she would fuss and cry, I'd feed her as I thought it must be from hunger and she'd pass out for as short as 10 minutes to as long as 1 hour. She ended up having a milk protein allergy, once I eliminated all milk products she slept through with only 1-2 night wakes for feeds.
Have you switched to double side feeding or are you still on one?
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A couple of things to think about.
1) When your baby wakes up and you say he is hungry, I assume this is because he is fussy and mouthy. He may be fussy b/c he is still tired. He feels bad and the only thing he is sure of that feels good is sucking. So he'll nurse, but he may not be truly starving. What may happen next is that he'll take 5 minutes of that fast easy milk and get the oxytocin and b/c he is still tired, doze off. You did not mention whether this ever happens, but if it does, I'd say the babe is more tired and less hungry.
2) I am not a big fan of extending short naps with sshh/pat or rocking or anything that involves a bunch of crying for the baby. The edge is off the baby's tiredness and that makes it so hard for him to fall back to sleep, and all the while you are trying whatever you are trying, you are wondering if he is really that tired or if he is really hungry now, or what. And you never know when to stop trying. Instead, when a baby wakes up, I say greet him with a big smile and if it isn't time to eat then do something entertaining.
3) As far as your concern about breastfeeding on demand versus on a schedule, etc., my opinion is that breastfeeding on a schedule or a routine is strickly for the benefit and convenience of the mom and rest of the family. We need babies to learn to eat enough to go several hours between feedings so we can take care of the rest of our family, household, work, selves, etc. Eventually your child will learn to eat three times a day, as adults do. And to get all his sleep in one big chunk at night. I think adults do this for convenience, not necessarily b/c it is healthier. So, if you prefer to continue with bfeeding every two hours, and have the time to do so, I think that would be fine fine fine for the baby. If you need to start fitting a few other things into your day, don't worry, the baby will adapt just fine to that too.
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One other thing I just thought of as I ate my second chocolate cupcake in a row....eat more. And drink more water. When I was nursing my 1st baby and was awake all night long (he woke up every hour just like yours) I was losing weight like 5 lbs a month and I was way below my prepregnancy weight already, and I was exhausted...I went to my midwife for a consult. She said I should eat 5000 calories a day. I am not lying. 5000. Forget where the books tell you to eat an extra 500 calories; that is not enough. Now, I don't know that I ever ate 5000, but I started drinking big milkshakes everyday and eating more rice and bread and pasta (don't eat a bunch of pure junk food) and the idea is that this will make your milk richer.
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Hi there, my lo is 4 months old and I was stressing out about putting her on a 4hr easy - it was just not working and I was then re-assured by a BF mod that it is not that uncommon for bf babies to eat at 3 hrs or maybe evenless. I just go with the flow now - accepted the 45 min naps and I know that she will learn to fall back asleep very soon (with dd1 naps started extending at arounf 6 months or so). I have even considered bottle feeding just in case she is not getting enough but that was a silly idea cause she is putting on weight, etc.. so I know its not the quantity. At least there is something my body is doing right!
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I am not a big fan of extending short naps with sshh/pat or rocking or anything that involves a bunch of crying for the baby. The edge is off the baby's tiredness and that makes it so hard for him to fall back to sleep, and all the while you are trying whatever you are trying, you are wondering if he is really that tired or if he is really hungry now, or what. And you never know when to stop trying. Instead, when a baby wakes up, I say greet him with a big smile and if it isn't time to eat then do something entertaining.
***Forgot to add - AMEN to what you said. I am not a big fan of shh/put for hours and hours. I usually giver her additional 15 mins to try to get back to sleep and if not, pick her up with and say "good girl" for trying ;D and when she shows tired signs again, its back to bed! It worked with dd1 and like I said, she learnt eventually to fall asleep for longer than 45 mins (i have the patience to wait :)). I think when they are crying so much shh/pat is worthless - let her biorythms mature abit and then she will sleep longer
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I went to my midwife for a consult. She said I should eat 5000 calories a day. I am not lying. 5000. Forget where the books tell you to eat an extra 500 calories; that is not enough.
Seriously?! :o
I'm sorry but unless you're extremely underweight or have some sort of high metabolism problem, i don't think consuming 5000 calories a day is going to be healthy. I should think it would make you overweight.
Women's bodies have been producing milk since the dawn of time, before scientists and nutritionists and books were telling us what to do. Women have breastfed theirs babies through famine and wartime rationing and even today there are women don't have the luxury of being able to get the standard RDA of calories, let alone more. They still produce milk.
I know i'm being extreme but my basic point is breastfeeding is a natural occurance and just like childbirth, our bodies know how to do it. If you need more calories your body will tell you that you're hungry. If you need more water your body will tell you that you're thirsty.
Just my opinion ;)
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my LC suggested i try a diary free diet this week so thatis what I am doing...we will see if it makes any difference. I am so tired and discouraged. My dh is trying to put him to bed as I write this post and I can hear him screaming. I just kept thinking it would get better and it hasnt...
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Yes of course 5000 calories is extreme. But my midwife did say that. I am not recommending that anyone eat that much, but I do think some moms get so tired, a little depressed, etc. and it is work to prepare food for yourself, so I think we sometimes let our own diets suffer. Although I know that we can produce milk under extreme circumstances, that can't be optimal. I was just trying to remind ireps to take care of herself and her own diet in the midst of everything else.
I know how hard it is to hear the baby crying. It is very very hard. But he is fine and this will pass. Hugs to you.
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(((Hugs))) I know exactly how you feel, just reading your post puts me back in those difficult days. I couldn't believe how incredibly tired I was, how I would just burst into tears and how I was ready to give up bfing. It will get better for you, believe me when I say this!
In regards to the dairy, what are his dirty diapers like? My dd had sometimes frothy and greenish dirty diapers and very loose stools. She ended up having blood in her stools which is a sign of a milk protein allergy, often in babies with the allergy the blood can be microscopic. If it's a MPA then all milk would have to be eliminated. If it's a lactose intolerance than it's not as limiting, my friend's lo is lactose intolerant, she can't drink milk, have butter or cream but she can eat some foods that are made with milk (ie. bread).
Again, try to hang in and not feel discouraged. Back when I was going through this we did anything and everything we could to get my dd to stop screaming and sleep, this included using lots of "white noise" like the sound of running water which often stopped her crying/screaming, sometimes we even let her sleep in her swing for a few hours in the early part of the evening. We also took away any distractions (mobile, lights, music) and swaddled her which helped some. Is he gassy as well? We used to use Oval drops to help with the gas as dd was terrible at burping. Just a few things that may help in falling asleep.
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The 5000 calories recommendation is something I have never heard before :-\ and is approximately double the amount recommended by most LCs and the breastfeeding experts I have come across. I think there would be a risk to mother's health TBH as the danger would be an increase in the amount of 'empty' calories consumed in refined sugars and saturated fats.
On a dairy elimination diet it would be particularly immense task not to mention an expensive one.
It will partly depend on your Body Mass Index. If you have lower fat reserves you will need to consume extra calories.
According to Katherine A. Dettwyler, Ph.D., breastfeeding researcher and anthropologist, mothers in various parts of the world make enough quality milk eating diets made up almost entirely of rice (or another single grain) with a tiny amount of vegetables and occasional meat. I'm not saying this is a great idea if you can avoid it but if you think about most of the world's population of successful breastfeeders don't consume to amount of calories we do (but of course have some other health issues :-\).
The important thing is to eat enough protein, 'better' fats, enough fruit and veg and listen to your appetite and thirst.
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From what I've read in the past, women in underdeveloped countries that don't get enough to eat still are able to bf but must bf on demand, they never go on "scheduled" bfs, they would not be able to as their milk is not high enough in fat to sustain a lo so they bf around the clock. It's mainly in developed countries that women "schedule feed" successfully because their milk is richer due to diet.
When I eliminated milk products I started to lose weight (and I don't have any "extra" to lose) so I started to eat lots of nuts, hummus w/ pita, and Pop Tarts as snacks. With the elimination of milk products you do have to make an extra effort to eat foods that are healthy and high enough in calories and the right fats.
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thanks for the tips! I will try the dairy free and see how it goes for me and my LO. I am eating well because my mil is in town and cooking for us.