BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: Wink's Marmy on December 05, 2006, 19:22:49 pm
-
Hi. My daughter is 2 weeks old today. Have been BF since birth, had to supplement a little with formula in begining. Hubbie and I have decided that tonight he is going to give her the dream feed with formula so I can catch a little more sleep (4 hours isn't cutting it!). At 2 week Dr. visit today, Dr. said weight gain was good and encouraged our idea about the dream feed with formula. He said give her 2-3 oz. max and don't up the amount in the future. If she wants more, said to combine with pumped breast milk in future so my supply doesn't get messed up.
Since tonight will be our first time to try this I have a couple of questions:
1. has anyone done this? Have any tips?
2. how can I keep from getting engorged?
I have been feeding her every 2.5 - 3 hours and two cluster feeds in the evening.
Would kindly appreciate any responses/opinions!
Thanks!
-
Hi there!
I have done it - but I've got another idea for you that might help with engorgement.
First of all, when you mike the formula and milk - you want to mix the formula and then add the EBM to it. That might sound obvious...but it's pretty important!
What we used to do before I went back to work was I would give DS his cluster feeds and then put him to bed. Then, right before I went to sleep (at about 9:45) I would pump. Then, DH would give DS bottle with that milk in it as DF at about 10:30, and I would go to sleep at 9:45. Then, my DS would generally sleep until 2am, and I'd feed him them, and then get up with him at 6.
It worked pretty well to kind of take the edge off the night feeds!
HTH, and congrats on your new baby!! :)
-
So if I pump before bed and hubbie feeds my LO, say, 1.5 - 2 hours later, can I just let my EBM sit without being refrigerated??
Maybe I should just do EBM. I was thinking formula because I know it fills them up longer..
Any thoughts on there about that too?
-
Sure, you can leave it out it's fine for that amount of time. Frankly, I think it would be fine longer, but there are lots of people who are fussier than me about that stuff! ;)
From everything I've heard the formula thing is a total wives tale. And in my experience, it didn't fill my DS up for longer either... :)
Personally, I'd do the EBM alone, especially since you're just starting off nursing. Better to stick with the good stuff! :) I only mixed formula after I had been back at work for a while and my supply started to wane...I used to top off DS' bottles with formula rather than fret that he wasn't getting enough!
Good luck!!!
-
Yes, you can leave BM at room temperature for that length of time. Formula will not fill him up longer, so if you can, I would stick to the BM for now.... it's better all around (especially for your supply).
I would also consider waiting another couple of weeks so that your body and baby can be more in sync. The two of you are still trying to learn about each other and about supply and demand. The first 6 weeks can be very tough and tricky... take a look at these links from the FAQs
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64627.0
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=68263.0
HTH! Welcome to the site and congrats on your little one.
-
Congratulations on your daughter. :)
Fresh ebm is good for an absolute minimum of 4 hours at room temp. (This is from studying various sources. 4 hours is the most conservative estimate. Many 'experts' say a lot longer than that. This is an unused previously sterile bottle, not one that has been drunk out of a bit) So 1.5-2 is fine.
The guidelines have been revised in the last few years as bm was found to have anti-bacterial properties not previously accounted for.
http://parenting.ivillage.com/newborn/nbreastfeed/0,,484b,00.html
I'm glad to hear your doc is sensibly telling you to restrict the amount of formula you give if you want to protect your breastmilk supply. Do think the message he is giving is that you may want to consider returning to exclusive breastfeeding? How do you feel about that?
There is a mixed feeding thread on the bottle-feeding board you might want to check out.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=68301.0
However I suggest you have a bit of a read around the subject of the benefits of exclusive breastfeeding just so you can be informed about the choice you are making. We will support you of course whatever you choose.
But I would start with getting DH a bottle of ebm so you can sleep longer tonight and take it from there! :)
Some formula fed babies sleep longer, some don't. Casein proteins i.e dairy proteins are harder for baby's systems to digest than human protein so it can take longer but I think we might agree that's a mixed blessing.
Not everyone is in your position of being able to choose - ebm or formula - so appreciate the fact you can.
-
Thanks everyone for your opinions/ideas. I think I am going to go with the EBM for tonight & let hubbie feed her that. I read some of the info you guys gave me about formula vs. BM and I thought about it for a while and came to the conclusion that the only reason I was thinking of doing a formula bottle is because that is what my sis-in-law did & I consult her on things like this. There really was no other reason and after what I learned today from you guys and from speaking with a good friend who exclusively BFs, I think that EBM sounds like the best choice. You are right, not everyone can choose. If my milk is flowing and baby is growing why not just stick with it.
Sidenote/question:
Baby's 2 week check-up was today and she weighed 8.7 compared to birthweight of 8.9. This is good, right? I thought they were supposed to be back to birthweight at 2 weeks. Dr. said she was in great health & all was good.
-
Yay! Good for you! And good for little girl too!
I'm not sure re: the weight, I'm sure the mods. will have some stats on that, but I remember my DS being just shy of his birth weight of 6.14 at his 2 week visit. Important thing is that Doc says she's healthy!
You're doing great!
-
She's doing fine. Not all babies get back to birth weight by 2 weeks. Watch her diaper output... 6 wet in 24 hours... and her weight gain (she is gaining). What was she when she was discharged from the hospital? I'm sure she's doing great! Keep up the good work!
-
I haven't had to count the poops because frankly, I can't - there are so many! I would guess 7 or 8. And the wets are endless too. EVERYTIME I have changed her today she pees during the change!!
When discharged from hospital had gone from 8.9 to 7.14. The on-call Dr. who saw her then wanted us to come the next morning to the office for a weight check. By then she was down to 7.13. But my milk came in that next morning (took 5 days!). 4 days later went for another weight check and she was up to 8.2. That was one week ago from today so she gained 5 more oz. since then. It's not like she was born tiny or anything! A friend of mine told me that when her son (who weighed 11.1) lost 12 oz. upon discharge, the Dr. wanted her to supplement with formula. She laughed in his face and switched Peds.
-
Hi, I did it but I waited a little longer more like a 6 to 8 weeks. My son is almost 5 months old and I still give him both the breast and formula. In terms of keeping the milk supply I find that 1. Pumping frequently even if you get a little its still stimulating the breast, 2. In the morning you get your most supply or even over night I used to wake up in pain with lots of milk and if you get a chance to nap. After a nap ; a good rest . That worked for me and I had lots of milk , I guess I was lucky that way. So try that or also drink lots of water. Let me know what you think.
Queenie34 :)
-
Oh - and since I gave you the skinny on her weight/loss/gain and her diaper output, I thought I would ask one more question - After I feed her she tends to root and sometimes suck fingers. She has been pretty consistant in eating 15 min. on one side, 5 minutes on the other. She falls asleep at the wheel almost every time! So I am not totally sure when she is finished. But in experimenting with a wet cloth to keep her awake, she still stops after about 20 min. total by lifting her head up off the breast, closing her eyes, and with a big sigh she lays her head on my breast. I try and get her to eat longer but she wont open back up or she gets fussy. Then about 5 minutes later she starts to root. I have stuck her back on the breast several times, but she really just suckles with maybe a few tiny swallows. Do you think she is just wanting to suck? I gave her a pacifier and she loves it.
-
Sounds like she just wants to suck. You can also listen for her swallowing and when that tappers off, it's a signal that she is done. Try to listen to her and only use the clock as a guide (I'd say don't watch it at all). Go ahead and allow her the pacifier (there are 2 sides to that debate, but it sounds like you have a good solid bf relationship going).
Really sounds like she is doing well with weight gain and diaper output. I don't think you have anything to be concerned about there.
-
Hello again.
Its been several days now and hubbie has been giving my baby her dream feed so I can catch some Z's and be a little more sane. So far, so good... I think.... Today being Saturday and hubbie was home all day, he offered to give me a break and give baby one of her morning feedings so I could "sleep in". It was beautiful. I actually felt rested today. As planned, he stayed at home with her while I went out Christmas shopping for a bit. I left a pumped bottle "just in case", and "just in case" came before I could get home so he gave her a second bottle this afternoon. So thats 2 bottles today. We are debating him giving her the 3rd bottle of the day for the dream feed. Does anyone think this is too many bottle feedings for a baby who has only been feeding off a bottle now for 5 days?
The last feeding she had, she nursed fine at the breast until the end when she became quite gassy. I know she needs a burp when she suddenly and ferociously pulls off the breast, arms flailing and screaming. Anyway, she was doing this quite a lot and I would burp her, she would burp, then I would put her back to breast, she would get the nipple in her mouth but not latch and then start screaming again and we would repeat. She must have burped 6 or 7 times and finally I swaddled her and she calmed down and eventually went to sleep. I was talking to a friend who is a midwife and not a BW believer and she said my baby could have done that because of the bottle. Said that once the letdown is through the babies have to work at getting more milk while with the bottle its easy. Said that some babies get mad after the letdown slows because they are too used to bottle.
Any thoughts/comments??
-
This is the theory of nipple confusion. Some say that giving a baby a paci or a bottle before 6 weeks gives them nipple confusion. They don't know how to work both. personally I think the baby learns, it just takes time. I never had a problem, but I was only giving my LO a bottle every so often. I did however have to give him a bottle for a day or 2 at the beguining because my nipples were bleeding so bad it was getting all in my sons mouth and he was swallowing it. I would pump and check for blood then give it to him. he did fine. I think it could be that she just got a bit gassy. young babies do that sometimes. I would suggest getting a bottle of Mylicon and just have it there incase you eed it. It is perfectly safe ot use every feeding and for some it works really well. but you can never be sure. if you are worried then maybe do the DF tonight and then go straight to bed and have hubby do the feed in the morning and just do nursing the rest of the day. there are so many options if you are worried. but in the end, you know your LO and it is up to you.
-
Breasts do not respond to pumps in the same way they do to baby's feeding. The baby has a specific wave-like motion with the lower jaw that stimulates the hormone prolactin which governs milk supply (regulars on the board will be very used to me saying that!). So the real danger for me would be that with 3 bottles a day and less natural feeds your breasts will not be getting the stimulation they need and you may be not developing your supply in line with what your baby requires. The breasts even learn from the way she is sucking to balance the foremilk/hindmilk requirements.
I would also agree with the PP and the midwife that there is a possibility of confusion - especially 'flow' confusion - she may get more accustomed to the faster/easier flow of the bottle and be less practised in the more laborous breastfeeding technique. That ends up resulting in breast frustration and sometimes eventually refusal. That's why many LCs say wait a few weeks if you possibly can - even Tracy who supported early bottles believed in 'flow' confusion and promoted use of specific bottles with slower flow. e.g. haberman feeders.
Bottle can also lead to a build up of gas in the day.
All in all I'd say try and do as many natural feeds as you feel you can - at this stage she's so young and it's really important to get this breastfeeding technique and her supply established.
-
good point emma. I didn't think too much about that. I also think it would be smart to feed as much as possible becaus LO is so young. I hope all works out!
-
Well, 3 bottles in one day was not in the game plan and to be totally honest, in my zombie-like sleepless state, I am doing some odd things like not adding up change right, forgetting the previous day's events, and forgetting that I pumped a bottle and had hubbie give in the morning. I'm not kidding! Anyway, I will def. be doing as many BF as I can, but have REALLY enjoyed hubbie giving DF with EBM. Hubbie really enjoys the chance to feed too and wanted to do so since begining. Our goal was just that one bottle during dream feed per day and I don't want it to be any more than that for now. Will heed the advice of less bottles for sure, but I am a lunatic without the sleep this one bottle affords me...
Just finished her middle-of-the-night feed and she acted similar, but was also pulling off breast, then passing gas rather loudly. I am thinking baby's got gas and thats the real culprit, and perhaps it was caused by 3 bottles! Gas drops are ready to go. I just didn't know you could give those during a feed if need be. Will do next time if gassy again. (Crossing my fingers)
-
I think if the dreamfeed works best for all concerned then totally go for it. If the bottle is only then hopefully you'll be fine with the whole flow confusion thing. If you do feel she's getting frustrated with slower letdown on the breast maybe look into buying those bottles I mentioned.
Gas drops usually work best through frequent use and being given before the feed starts. I know people who've found them really useful. Gas can also be caused by positioning and latch - so make sure latch is a tight seal (e.g. no clicking noise, cheeks not sucked in) and upper body slightly above lower body.
P.S Your body gets more accustomed to sleep patterns - it will get easier - you are recovering from labour too. Try and sleep in the day if you can. :)
-
Nice info. Thanks. The latch is good, but I may need to work on the positioning. I have the "Boppy" and I don't like it as much as everyone told me I would.
-
I didn't like the boppy either. It didn't really help the positioning so we took ours back. my friend had a pillow called my Breast friend that helped me a lot with positioning. we used it at the lactation center too. it has littl bumps on the pillow where hte babies headis so you can hve your arm or hand there and it will elivate the head a little. also they make wedge like feeding pillows too. you could try those.
My son was really gassy but has grown out of it. we used the gas drops 30 min before a feed, every single time I fed. the night ones were too hard to get up 30 min before...so I would just give him them right before I fed. it worked either way. it is definatly not a super long term fix but it works for the first couple of months or so until your baby gets better at getting the gas out themselves. Good luck and let us know how everything is!
-
Hello again. I am still having gas issues with baby. I am visiting my parents right now and she is having more bottles than usual (usually one per day, now around 3 per day) of EBM. Her gassiness has been terrible. I guess it is from the bottles...
One thing I need to ask is that some nursing sessions, she nurses like a champ - Stays on one side around 20 min, then the other for around 10 min. I don't even have to burp between feeds and there is little to no spit up. Then there are the nightmare feeds - bobs on and off the breast - screams when I put it in her mouth - constant burping (takes a lot of work to get them up) and spit up and little toots. Her face gets bright red and her legs straiten out. She flails her arms when I offer the breast after a good burp and refuses. What can I do???
Also I had a virus and my milk supply seemed to drop. My LC told me to pump after feeds for a few days. Now I have a LOT of milk and am often engorged. Whenever I am engorged, she is done eating from the engorged breast in 5-8 minutes and won't take the other breast or anymore at all. Could she really be getting enough??
-
Trying to get my last post answered - so bumping myself up!
More in the developments of baby - this morning she ate at 5 am for about 5 min. Then woke at 7 am and ate for about 10 min. Then at 9 - well, you get the picture. I gave up trying to get her to eat more because it can take an hour to get her to eat, what with falling asleep and/or gas/burping. So I just let her be. I think she wants to be a snacker!!! At any rate, I spoke to an LC today who said that BW is not good for all babies and that I should just let her be after 5 min. if she seems satisfied. The problem is that I don't want to feed my almost 6 week old every 2 hours and I do believe that BW can work with all babies. She also doesn't seem satisfied after her short feeds. Usually is red faced and screaming. HELP!!!! I am at my wits end!
-
I mixed BM & formula with DD (now 17 months) and have just started doing the same with DS (12 weeks) I did this the first time one feed a day so I could get pregnant (It worked!!!) now I am doing it so that DS is used to a bottle so if I need to I can leave with relatives & know he will not go hungry.
Introducing formula did not stop my milk suppy (I BF DD for 11 months!) but I would recommend that you give the formula at the same time/feed every day, this way your body will know not to over produce milk at this time and so stop you getting engorged.
As for nipple confusion, it has taken DS a few days to get used to the bottle & he is a bit slurpy with it, but he also has a dummy and seems to be able to swap between the three things now. With DD she was even better & swapped between all three very easily right from the start (she is just a food monster)
My HV reckons there is no real evidence to support the nipple confusion theory, I am sure that at the end of the day if they are hungry they will never turn away food no matter how unusual it is to get at.
Congrats on your new arrival & hope things are going well combining your milks
-
Ok, jumping in here. A 5 minute feed is ok for some babies. If she is satisfied on 5 minutes, I would let her go. Some babies take a longer time to get to a 2.5 or 3 hour EASY. Could she be growth spurting? 6 weeks is a common time for one.
-
could it maybe be reflux or something like that. I know some babies have a hard time eating when they are in pain. if it contiues after a few weeks, I would maybe look into something like that, especialy if she is crying in pain.
-
Perhaps growth spurts. I dunno! I don't think its reflux because right after I finish feeding her, I change her diaper and she loves being on her back. Then we have floor time where we look at books or mobiles and she coos and smiles on her back as if the bad nursing session had never happened. So it doesn't bother her to be on her back at all. My instincts tell me she has bad gas. I have tried modifying my diet, but it doesn't seem to matter.
At any rate, thanks for the suggestions... Are there any other babies out there that are just plain HARD TO FEED? If she is not asleep at the breast, she is gassy or her eyes are wide open and she takes her sweet time!!! Oh, and that goes for the bottle too....
-
Have you tried using the gas drops before a feed?
-
Yes, I have. It really doesn't seem to make much of a difference. We have a dr.'s appt. soon and I am going to ask him about prescription gas medication...
-
it still seems odd to me, because if it was gas wouldn't your LO still have gas right after a feed??? it woudn't just disapear because the feed is done. does that make sense???
-
Yes, makes sense.
I think I may have figured some of it out, as I have tried a different approach over the past 5 days. First of all, she has a cold, which is so sad and pitiful and scary! Coughing, runny nose - no fever though. Of course since she is my first I freaked out and went to Dr. But since there is no fever & she is sleeping OK and (big surprise) eating OK, he said she is fine...
When she first started showing signs of having a cold, I just let her nurse as long as she wanted, be it 5 minutes or be it 40. If given a bottle, she could take as much as she wanted. She could have 1oz. or 3 oz. And I watched for signs of being finished (I think she stretches her arms over her head when satisfied and full) and I watched for signs that she didn't want anymore - fussing when offered more, etc. And it has made all the difference! Also, she passes gas a lot while eating, but it doesn't seem to bother her now. Perhaps her body is getting rid of gas better now, perhaps I was over feeding her and trying to force her to eat what I thought she needed.
At any rate, feeds now last no longer than 40 minutes, she is hardly spitting up any more, and if she gets red faced and starts fussing, I end the feed. During the day she typically goes 3 hours between feeds and occasionally 2. During the night she is going 5 hours between feeds, sometimes 6 and occasionally 4 1/2.
I feel so much better about her, about breast feeding, about myself. I was stressed about the occasional 2 hours between feeds before, but its totally worth her precious little satisfaction and my sanity to feed her "off schedule" sometimes. I guess I just wasn't being flexible before and now it makes all the difference.
Being a mom of an infant is like being a detective sometimes, eh??? I'm sure she will change soon and then I'll have to get out my BW magnifying glass to figure out whats going on again. Thanks for the suggestions and help. I don't know what I would do without Tracy's insight and this message board of devout BW's!!!