BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: kim&savannah on February 03, 2007, 19:09:44 pm
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OK, I know that too much foremilk can cause green poops, but is there something else that could be going on here?
Abe has had really bright green (like, grass colored) poops most of the time for several days now. I have a hard time beleiving that he is never getting the hindmilk, unless I'm just not making much because at some of the feeds, he does feed for a long time, and even though most are now only a few minutes on each breast, he seems satisfied afterwards and is at the point where he isn't swallowing much when he quits.
I just figured by 3 months, he's eating much more efficiently, so I haven't pushed it too much--and when I do try to get him to go back on, he usually bobs on and off and gets really fussy, so either he's still hungry and there isn't any milk coming out so he's frustrated (I don't think this is it because if I give him a paci, he usually calms down within a couple min. and is fine until the next feed--about 3 hours later), or he isn't hungry anymore and doesn't want me shoving my breast in his mouth (seems more likely :))
So, why have the poops been so green? He used to have really nice yellow ones (never thought I'd be describing poop as really nice ::) ;D). Is it possible that when he stopped eating for as long, my breasts stopped making as much hindmilk? Or could it be related to the food I'm eating? DD was MSPI, but I haven't seen the same signs in Abe yet--no rash, runny nose, or dark circles under the eyes. And I don't remember her poops regularly being green like this--just sometimes.
TIA!
~Kim
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I'm going to give you some websites to look through... so I don't have a good answer for you :-[
http://www.mother-2-mother.com/cc-baby-A.htm#GreenStools
http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/pediatricks/poop.asp
HTH
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My only experience with green poo was the foremilk/hindmilk imbalance. I keep getting it with dd1 and had to work to make sure it didn't creep up again. Her poo would go from guacamole to parsely. ::)
I tried doubling up the feeds for a few days and that helped. I'd feed from one breast, then feed that same breast at the next feed time (pumping the other). Then do 2 feeds from the same breast on the other side for the next one. Breast compression also helped, and I would also try pumping off a bit of the foremilk before I fed her so she'd stimulate more of the hindmilk with her nursing.
My suspicion is that's the problem, even if he's going 3 hours between feeds. And yes, it only takes a few days when he doesn't get the hindmilk for your breasts to start producing more fore and less hind - at least in my experience. Pain in the butt, though... >:(
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Thanks ladies--so, from those websites, it looks like it could be almost anything ::)
I'm kind of thinking maybe it is an imbalance thing--I guess I need to work at getting my breasts to make more hindmilk--should I pump after I feed him as well? When I do pump, I don't seem to get as much of the "cream" rising to the top as I did when he was younger, but I wasn't sure if I just wasn't pumping long enough.
This is a pain :-\
~Kim
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You probably could also pump after you feed to try and stimulate more hindmilk production, if you can't get him to stay on long enough - that's the idea with pumping off a bit before you feed him - he doesn't get all that foremilk, and he'll nurse longer to stimulate production of more hindmilk. Really use breast compression too - helps a lot. And honestly, doing that plus about 2 days of the double up feeding and my imbalance was fixed. You do need to stay on top of it though - always make sure to use the compression to keep him on long enough. Do you have a strong letdown? I think it's more common with that because the baby gets bored when things slow down... ::)
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Kim, I am goign through something similar and this always seems to improve his poops.
I do the suggested recline while nursing and make sure Lorne's head is above his torso. I told dp I was going to work on Lorne's poops starting to be yellow and not green and dp came back from changing los diaper and dp asked how I magically changed the colour of his poops. LOL
And you're right, it is a pain.
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OK--I'll try the recline and I will pump after I feed him--I've been doing breast compressions this weekend, but so far, no real help. I think I must have a pretty strong letdown because he just gulps down the milk for the first couple min. and then totally slows down and within a few min, doesn't want anything to do with my breast. And he'll get kind of fussy, but as soon as I sit him up, he burps a HUGE burp, spits up a TON and then is totally happy, so he's definately getting enough milk, I would think. Maybe I really should pump first and see if he'll still nurse the same amount of time but would get the fattier milk.
Thanks again everyone. I love being able to come here and think through these things and get feedback from everyone.
~kim
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I had a lengthy conversation with my LC about this. I finally decided to try the following method which she suggested, purely just to prove her wrong but it ended up working. Took three days though.
Firstly, she told me to stop pumping so much. 30mls (I think that's about 1oz?) off the first breast to stop the forceful letdown was ample. She said to feed off the first breast until it was soft (but DEFINITELY do not let baby empty it), burp, then finish the feed on the second breast. She also said to take my bra off and let the second breast drip into a towel while baby starts on the first breast.
It really doesn't make sense in terms of reducing the foremilk consumption but I think the idea behind it is to get your milk production in sync with your baby and the hindmilk/foremilk imbalance ends up sorting itself out.
I know it sounds completely wrong but do give it a try.
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Interesting that that worked because it does sound a bit different--so is the baby emptying the second breast? This would definately be the easier method since Abe isn't too interested in staying on my breast once everything slows down so its a challenge to get him to really empty them, I think (I can't tell for sure exactly how empty he is getting them.)
I'll see what this other stuff does and if it doesn't fix it, I'll give that solution a try.
~Kim
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so I am having the same battle but I only single side feed. I hve been pumping off some of the formilk but his poops are still green. were you double side feeding from the beginning?? I also was wondering how you know it evens out? do you do it for a while and then try to not do it? I have been hand expressing the begining formilk for a couple weeks then I tried to not do it and it seemed the same. any Idea's? should I try the double side thing?
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I was single side feeding from the beginning because I had so much milk that ds was getting enough without even coming close to emptying the breast. He was pretty much getting mostly foremilk though. I tried feeding from the same breast for two feeds in a row which helped a bit but not enough to convince me to continue down that path. But after three days on the weird method, ds's poos were coming out much less forcefully and were that normal mustard colour. Soon ds began coming off the first breast himself when the flow started slowing down, instead of me having to take him off. My breasts weren't as full and I wasn't leaking anymore so I knew my supply had regulated itself.
The first couple of days, ds wasn't emptying the second breast. In fact, I think he was just getting a second dose of foremilk because he actually became much worse and I nearly gave up. But as my supply began to slow down according to his demand, he began taking more and more from the second breast and it got to the stage where he was almost emptying both breasts.
The LC never actually told me the theory behind her apparent madness but from what I have read on the subject, in most cases, the hm/fm imbalance is actually the result of an over supply issue. ie. if you have too much milk, your lo may get something like 80% foremilk and 20% hindmilk just from the one breast, but if you are producing just enough milk, your lo will be able to finish both breasts, which should give him the perfect balance of fore and hind milk. Does that make sense?
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Dr. Jack Newman (bf guru) believes green poops can be a sign of hindmilk/foremilk imbalance, but also just thinks in some cases it is normal and nothing to worry about if the baby is generally content and gaining weight okay.
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So Luciasmum, how do you feed now? Both breasts? Did you just keep up the routine with offering both breasts? I'm very intrigued.
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I just do whatever the boy wants now. He usually gets sick of one breast after a while so I put him on the other side to finish. I don't do any expressing and I no longer have to let the second breast drip while we start on the first. I haven't seen a green poo since I got my supply under control. Plus ds is almost four months now so he can handle lactose a bit better.
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so is it to late for me to worry about it. his poops have geen greener for a long itme. but it has just gotten worse and worse, not better. I was thinking that it may just be him but now I am wondering if it is me. but he has great weight gain and wet diapers so I was never really worried. is it bad for them to have green poop? or is it just a bothersome thing for mom? plus, I don't spray with my let down or drip much eiher. I used to a lot but I guess it is under control now so maybe I just have to stimulate more hindmilk????? right?
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Maybe it's not a milk imbalance? Could it be an attachment problem? I knew it was an imbalance with ds because for three feeds in a row, I gave ds EBM that was mainly hindmilk and his poo went mustardy again. As soon as I started again on the breast, they went straight back to green. Will your ds take a bottle so you can do a little experiment?
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yeah, I'll have to try that and see. I usually don't pump after, should I pump after him feeding on the side he fed on for a few times then give him the bottle? so I know it is mostly hind milk?
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Hi Kim,:)
Others gave great ideas, but just wanted to throw something else out there. I know it seems I always have reflux on the brain ;), but do you see signs of that? Reason I ask is that Keaton will only take a couple minutes from each side, and if I try to get him to take more, he bobs on and off (his stomache starts contracting when his stomache fills, sending the milk back up the esophagus, and making it difficult to eat more). I know he gets an excess of foremilk, and his poops can be very green. It usually peaks around 4 mos. Does he do better with night feeds? Sometimes a refluxer will feed much better at night since they are more relaxed.
This probably isn't the case, but just wanted to mention it. HUGS. Hope the poops go back to normal soon!
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Sheila~
I'm definately wondering about that as well--because yes, he does do better at night and he still does a lot of gurgling and wet hiccups and burps and is spitting up more, although still only right after a feed. He was on prevacid for a couple weeks but it didn't seem to make a difference so the dr. and I decided that we might as well take him off of it since he seemed pretty happy--I wonder though if it is getting worse.
His green poops are even worse today. Just curious--should the poops turn back to yellow if he has a couple good feeds or can it take a few days? Because they aren't any better in the a.m. even though he does eat better over night.
~Kim
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I always found that they could change colour on a dime, IYKWIM. Even now, if she snacks for a feed or 2 I get greenish poo. You could try the suggestion of EBM - let it sit and pour off some of the watery foremilk to see if that makes a difference...
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The first couple of days, ds wasn't emptying the second breast. In fact, I think he was just getting a second dose of foremilk because he actually became much worse and I nearly gave up. But as my supply began to slow down according to his demand, he began taking more and more from the second breast and it got to the stage where he was almost emptying both breasts.
The LC never actually told me the theory behind her apparent madness but from what I have read on the subject, in most cases, the hm/fm imbalance is actually the result of an over supply issue. ie. if you have too much milk, your lo may get something like 80% foremilk and 20% hindmilk just from the one breast, but if you are producing just enough milk, your lo will be able to finish both breasts, which should give him the perfect balance of fore and hind milk. Does that make sense?
I think it gets worse before it gets better. Braxton's poop was almost black it was so dark green yesterdy. I am just going to keep doing it for the next week or so and see if it gets any better. if not them I'm not worrying about it. why does it matter if his poops are green is he is having good growth and enough wet diapers??? I know that reflux gets worse during growth spirts is that possible?? that is one of the tale tale signs for me that braxton is having a growth spirt...his reflux starts getting worse for a while then it goes back to normal.
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yeah, I'll have to try that and see. I usually don't pump after, should I pump after him feeding on the side he fed on for a few times then give him the bottle? so I know it is mostly hind milk?
Yes, I pumped after a feed so I would get just the hindmilk.
Just wondering, has anyone else noticed that their LOs get bad nappy rash with the green poo?
Another spanner in the works - Last night I found some other ideas on what can cause green poos, including a high sugar diet in the mother and eating cabbage but I'm not so sure about that because my MIL also thinks that and she's ALWAYS wrong! TMI warning here...If I take iron tablets, my poos go green so maybe our LOs are getting lots of iron?
Who knows hey? By the time you've tried everything they'll probably get over it themselves!!
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lol seriously. that is why I havn't really worried about it because I figured if he is growing it is ok. I know Braxton has reflux and he has had some really bad diaper rashes lately. I heard that was connectedto the reflux as well. I just pumed the oposite side I fed on and it looks like pure hind milk too. I have a clogged duct I am trying to release before it gets worse. I was thinking of saving it. how do you know if it is just hind milk? it that all that is left after he is done feeding? he did 4 hours between feeds today for the first time. I have been pumping off less then 1 oz of formilk each time I have fed him. I am hoping if I do it every single feed is will get better. I havn't really noticed a difference in the green poo, but maybe it wil help to balance the formilk/hindmilk thing and he will be able to go longer between feeds because he's getting the thicker stuff.
I'm going to try the pumping thing tomarrow and see what happens. although, I do have a lot of sugar. I've been trying to cut some out lately and have only one treat a week. that's the goal anyway! how have the diapers been for you Kim?
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Our poops (I mean, Abe's poops ;)) have still been really green, although he did have 1 that looked a little more yellow today--but lots of really gassy little squirts--not sure if that is related. I'm starting to wonder if he has a virus since that is one of the causes--he has been sleeping really poorly at night and his nose is a little runny, but not too much. And his naps have been normal, so I'm not sure.
I'm so sad--I'd pumped a good 3 ounces the other morning that was almost all hindmilk--and I dropped it when I was trying to transfer it into a bag to freeze!!!! So sad! I lost over half of it. But here's a question--if I can pump off that rich of milk before he's eaten on that side, doesn't that indicate that there shouldn't be an imbalance? It had been about 5 hours since he'd eaten on that side and he was still sleeping so I went ahead and pumped and seriously, it was only maybe 1/4 of an ounce that looked watery--the rest was a lot richer.
~Kim
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Hi Kim. How have things been in the poop department? ;) Still green?
Oh, and I know what you mean about spilling the milk! It is such a bummer when it takes so long to pump! >:(
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Still green, but since he has had a cold for the last week, I gave up trying to fix it for now--they changed to really runny, slightly mucousy and stinkier than normal, but I'm pretty sure that's because he's sick, so I'll wait and see what happens in the next few days when he (hopefully) gets better.
If they don't clear up, then I guess I'll try eliminating dairy and soy since those were Savannah's triggers and we'll go from there.
~Kim
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we had a couple days with yellower poops, but they are green gain. I don't know if it is a milk thing for us too because I had milk yesterday and cheese too and It is back to green. I am going ot try to get some rice milk and try to get some lactose free stuff to see if it helps. I am going to try it for a couple weeks and if there is no improment I am done worrying about it. I think Braxton has allergies right now too. he has been sneexing and caughing and the allergins are all really bad here. so I've just been trying to get through the night and day lately. so we will see how the next few days go. I think this may be a lactose thing though.
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Melissa~If you decide to go no dairy, make sure you read the MSPI thread--they have a good list of all the things that you have to watch out for--some LO's are very sensitive and even the smallest amount will cause problems for them. I had to be off dairy and soy with Savannah for 10 months--it wasn't fun, but made a huge difference for her, so it was worth it in my mind. I am just hoping that isn't the case this time--I eat cheese and milk and yogurt pretty much every day.
~Kim
PS--I got your pm--try to respond today, but I'm trying to not neglect Savannah--I've been on here too much lately!!! ;D
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Can I just chip in and say that if green poop are the only indicator (i.e weight gain is OK, baby is satisfied after a feed) then green poop alone isn't a reason to panic. I know I've mentioned this before but Dr Jack Newman who is the breastfeeding guru says parents waste a whole lot of time worrying about green poop and in main book he advises new parents who are worried about green poop to buy sunglasses. A lactose problem (which is rare) would be indicated by mucousy or frothy green poop. If it's consistency is normal and it really is just an issue of colour and you have no other reasons to be concerned I really wouldn't worry about it.
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Is it ok if they went from ALWAYS being yellow to ALWAYS being green within a couple days? I just figure the change indicates that something is going on. And the consistancy is not always ok--although that changed the most when he came down with this cold, so I'm waiting to see if that gets better--they were still somewhat seedy, although they also look pretty mucousy a lot of the times.
~Kim
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last night he had a superr runny and bright green poop. It was more like diareah. but today he work up with a really dry and chesty cough I was going to look into what the cough might be because we have all been having a weird allergy type of thing that allergy meds havn't helped and no other signs of sickmess. we are also dealing with a mold infestation that our manager is just blowing off. we are taking pictures of it today to take to a micro biologist to get checked and to send to the manager and owner of the appts. I think it may be related, but I don't know. I have yet to cut dairy and I think I was just going to try going without cows milk only. it seems to get worse when I drink it more then a tiny glass.
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Poor you. Good Luck with finding a solution and hope your mold gets sorted whether or not it's the cause.
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I tried something different for my DS. I was initially doing single sided feeding when he was small, but started doing double sided as his needs increased, and he started having more green poos.I read somewhere that if you start one feed from the right side and then go to left, then start the second round of feeding from the left and then go to right, so that if LO has not emptied the second breast earlier, he does so in the second feed and gets hindmilk. This seemed to work for me as his poop has turned more yellow, though still occassionally has green poos.