BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: abbysmomma on March 21, 2007, 03:00:58 am
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Hi all
I know this is a topic that's been posted before, and I did read back to a few, but I guess I need some reassurance. I'm pretty sure Abby is going through something these last few days (teething?), but after this morning's usual nurse, she has refused to nurse all day. She looks at the boob, leans over and delicately bites the nipple :-X then starts to cry huge crocodile tears. Finally, after all day of not nursing, I expressed some in a cup and gave it to her through an eyedropper (doesn't take a bottle). She was rather unwilling to drink it, but finally accepted it (crying most of the time). I've never had this happen before - she's an avid nurser. We are in the process of weaning night feeds, but if this still goes on tonight, I guess we will be done with it! Should I take her into a clinic or something? She is a bit more cranky than usual, but not too bad. She ate her solids like normal, and since she did drink the expressed BM, it's not something I ate that's changed the taste. So what gives? She's already cut four teeth, and this didn't happen with any of them. If she's teething, is she cutting something like 5 at once??? I'm confused. What else causes nursing strikes? :'(
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Do you want to stop breastfeeding? It might be better to give it at least a few days - both for your breasts to adjust and prevent blocked ducts and mastitis but also to give her a chance.
Plenty of babies have nursing strikes and do come out the other side so if you don't want to give up just yet I don't think you should feel you have to - but of course it's up to you.
Some of the common causes are pain from teething (so yes, it's possible. After the initial teeth some babies do get the next ones in a batch). Also pain from an ear infection which might not always have obvious external symptoms. If your instincts say perhaps pop along to the clinic then it might be worth it just to rule out something obvious and physical.
Then it can be caused by different smells or tastes as you say - some babies strike during a mother's menstrual period when supply also sometimes dips. Or it could be a new perfume or antiperspirant.
The other main issue is an emotional one. Feeling unsettled after a sudden change is the usual one. You mention you are in the process of nightweaning. She might be assuming boobs are off limits entirely or feeling confused - it might be related but that would be very unlikely. Most babies get the hang of nightweaning without any daytime problems.
I think being unwell or teething is the most likely possibility.
There's a good overview of the problem here:
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/baby/back-to-breast.html#strike
The main tips for addressing it are offering pain relief if needed and then skin-to-skin time, a bath together, offering regularly but without being too forceful, offering when baby is sleepy.
It's good you are expressing as your supply will obviously be effected quite quickly without stimulation. Of course, if your instincts tell you this is the time to stop you know the situation better than anyone. But I would just give it a go - as emotional causes can be part of the reason when a strike occurs it's worth just giving her a chance. And if it's a temporary issue to do with pain it might go away as soon as you offer pain relief.
Sometimes strikes don't have an obvious cause and babies resume nursing without any problem. Self-weaning by nurslings is always a gradual process with feeding reducing over a longer period of time. She would also be too young to self-wean (babies that wean under 12 months are showing bottle preference rather than actually weaning).
Let us know how you get on.
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{{{hugs}}}
What does your routine look like? Are you offering the breast and hour or so before solids?
Try to relax about it (I know, hard to do) as she will sense your stress and pick up on it.
As Emma said, think about whether you are ready to stop bfing.... you say she won't take a bottle, so that will be a tough transition as well, as she will need breastmilk or formula for quite some time now.
Again {{{Hugs}}} and keep us posted. :-*
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Hi
I don't want to stop at all - I just don't know what to do. I've been offering her at fairly regular intervals, both awake and sleepy. She is obviously really hungry, as she woke almost hourly last night. I gave her tylenol, hylands teething tablets, and orajel both before bed and at 4am. She cries as if she's being pinched if she tries to breastfeed. She has no problems sucking on her fingers or eating her solids, so I'm still unclear as to whether it's her teeth or not. I've been trying to wean her from nightfeeds for a fairly long time now, and for the time being was just accepting the one night feed. She went from eating quite fine at 7:15am yesterday morning, then nothing. I always offer breast before solids. I am just on the other end of a period, but I've been having periods since she was 4 months old. I guess that might be it, but why now?? I don't wear antipersperant :-[ or perfume, so maybe emotional? No changes that I can see. Nothing new. We have a fairly set routine that we follow everyday. Do I offer her more solids? Will that really leading to weaning then? I'm so confused. I think I will go to a clinic today and rule out ear infections. Thanks for replying mods. :)
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It sounds as though you've worked really hard to rule out lots of stuff. I think the clinic is a good idea. After that I would call an LC - they just might see something we can't. It could still be teeth as serious teeth can often 'break through' pain meds and teething stuff and sucking at the breast is more pressure for gums than eating from a spoon.
Fingers crossed for an easy solution.
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Well, as bad as it sounds, I was kind of hoping for something from the clinic. Nothing. No ear infection, sore throat. Doc just said that it might be something viral, and to keep dosing her with tylenol regularly.
I have a question about her food then: I usually feed her every two hours or so (either solid or bm), but since she's not taking the bm, should i offer her solids every two hours?
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I would stick with offering everything as normal. Keep offering the breast and then solids 2 hours later. I wouldn't increase the solids, as you still want breastmilk to be the main source of calories.
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posted at the same time as rachel.
That's a shame about the clinic. I was hoping for something too. I'd be very nervous about simply increasing her solid intake. It's not really what she needs and might just mean she's less motivated to take the breast. I would keep her solids intake what it has been but you could add in additional milk feeds that seem a lot like a solids meal. Like if she will take a spoon - alternate with a spoonful of ebm. Or make a very liquidy milky porridge with ebm.
I just think if you go with more frequent solids she won't have an appetite for milk and she may get out of the habit entirely without that extra motivation.
Do you have an LC you could ring or even just a breastfeeding helpline might have an additional idea.
What is she drinking at the moment? Has she taken any ebm from a cup or a dropper again?
Don't forget to keep up the pumping several times a day if you can - just so the supply is there. She might be more interested in ebm that has just been pumped. Or if you pump a little and then offer her the breast straightaway she will taste milk drops and won't have to work for a letdown.
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Just wanted to offer some hugs.
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Thanks guys for your support. I've been pumping and offering bm at any chance (after i've tried to nurse). She had probably 4 ounces today already. Feeding bm with a baby spoon is an exercise in patience! I'll do my best not to feed her more solids, but it's hard when she just wants more. I'm so scared she's going to wean herself...
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Hi
One more quick question: should I be offering her some expressed milk when she wakes at night? She's very used to getting some, and last night was the first time she didn't eat all night. needless to say, it wasn't a good night. :'(
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Did you cut her off cold turkey at night?
It is still common for an 8 month old to still have a night feed, so you may want to set a time for yourself as a goal to make it to, and then feed.
Can you post your daily routine, maybe there's some tweaking to be done there.
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Um. I couldn't feed her at night. she didn't want it. but i could tell she was still hungry as her belly was rumbling. :'( I know it's common to still have a night feed, and i would feed her if i could. so all i'm doing is feeding her expressed milk as best i can (spoon, cup, medicine dropper), should i be also doing this at night? Last night i didn't feed her at all. she woke up almost hourly after 11pm.
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I think at the moment you shouldn't worry about offering her milk at night - just do it. Once this is over you can go back to worrying about nightweaning. Nighttime feeds is often a time when it's possible to break a strike when a baby is sleepier.
Some people find a baby on a strike will accept a breast using a nipple shield (one of the really thin ones is best).
Do phone a breastfeeding helpline or LC and get another opinion if you can.
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{{{{{{hugs}}}}} :-*
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Have you tried dreamfeeding her? Nursing her while she's asleep? Any chance she'd take it that way?
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I'll try contacting an LC today. Just so i'm clear: i should just feed her at night, no matter the method? so grab the bottle and spoon and go at it at night? she gets pretty agitated, but i'll give it a go tonight if she's still not nursing. i have tried in different positions, diff places in the house, lying down, sitting up. should i try grabbing her during her nap and see if she'll nurse then? i'll also go get a nipple shield. thanks for all the suggestions. i really appreciate it. this is getting really stressful... :'(
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I think what the other posters mean is that if she wakes, go ahead and try nursing her. I don't think they intend for you to wake her up to feed her with the bottle or spoon.
I would be tempted to to wake her and try nursing during her naps. Sleepy babies usually feed best.
Have you tried using an eye dropper to feed her?
HUGS to you.
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Ideally you'll be responding to her hunger cues. So I'm not saying shake her awake and shove a spoon into her ;). If she's awake anyway I would start by offering a breast (once that you've already hand expressed which has drips of milk) and if she refuses breast then I would go with syringe of mik or dropper (so she doesn't have to completely sit up if she doesn't want to). I would also try a 'dreamfeed' at naptime or at night and offer her the breast when she's in a light sleep. Don't do any grabbing ;) Just lie down next to her and have a go.
Good luck with the LC. Do keep pumping.
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I tried nursing her multiple times last night. She went hysterical and i eventually had to rock her to calm her down. Normally she only naps in her crib, but i could try and put her down in my bed, then lie next to her and hope that she nurses? Only thing with that is she's a big time roller, so i'd have to stay with her the whole time. and she's really not used to having someone around when she sleeps. i have a feeling that today's naps are going to suck. :(
but i'll give it a go. thanks for your replies.
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What I've done at naptime is put pillows on the sides of the bed so she won't roll off. I'll leave her to fall asleep on her own, peaking in, then once she's asleep, I scoot along side and ease my nipple in - stroking her top lip in a downward fashion. If she latches, then great, if not, I try again later in the sleep cycle. The other thing I do is when she just starts stirring from the nap, I rush in, lay down and try to pop it in before she realizes she's awake.
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Tried nursing just as she was falling asleep for her nap. It made her really mad. :(
She slept about 1hr40min before i decided that i could try again - i eased her out of the crib then tried nursing. Again, one really mad baby. She went back to sleep when i put her in the crib. I'm getting concerned - she isn't really drooling anymore (yesterday i had to change her shirt it was so wet), her diaper this morning was yellow with pee (never seen that), and she isn't whining anymore today. You'd think i'd be happy that she isn't whining, but it's almost eerie. Almost dopey, come to think of it. I'll keep my eye on it. I'm going to a breastfeeding clinic tomorrow to see if someone could look at her try to feed.
For her next nap i'm going to put her in my bed and try your suggestions Erin. I'm also going to have a bath with her and see if she's interested then. Thanks for reading
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Hmmm. Are you saying you fear she might be beginning to get dehydrated? Lack of drool and yellow pee are possible indicators of that.
If she's not interested in ebm does she drink water or juice? Or you could give her a popsicle made from dilute juice. Or a very watery fruit like melon.
I know she doesn't take a bottle but maybe it's worth a try.
Are there any other signs it might be a virus? Does she have a temperature?
Your comment about her lack of whining being eerie, I'm afraid sets off warning bells for me. Especially in the context of your comments about drool and pee and seeming dopey. I think listen to your instincts and don't be afraid to take her to the emergency room if you feel something isn't right. I know that is so not what you want some internet poster to say to you ::)
But just trust your instincts.
If tonight doesn't go well I would certainly go back to the clinic tomorrow.
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We have sippy cup, sippy cup without the no-spill thingy, straw cup, a Nuby soft spout sippy cup, and a regular plain cup. None of them really work. :( We are working on just drinking from a cup. i think maybe some of it ends up inside her instead of outside.
How long did it take for Kaleb to go back to the breast, Stacy? Just wondering how long this is going to last. She is uber sleepy today. Doesn't even make it through the bedtime story. :( I hope she's ok...
Oh, and the bath? She was having fun, playing with toys, so I slipped her into position, and she rewarded me with a nice fat poo. :-X So, i'll try again tomorrow.
I just saw your comment Samuel's mom. Yeah, it is making me really worried that she's getting dehydrated. However, she is getting more bm in today than yesterday. The yellow pee was the morning diaper, and she didn't have anything to drink during the night. The drool really worries me, since that was one of the things the doctor pointed out to me when i took her in yesterday. He said that since she was drooling (yesterday), it didn't look like she was dehydrated. She slept two hours for her first nap today, which hasn't happened in months. And she just went down for her second nap with only 3 hours A time, which is again really unusual. It's usually at least 3.5 hours A. We'll see how the rest of the day goes. I mean, i guess it might be because she didn't sleep well last night. I'm driving myself crazy.... :-\
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I'm off to bed now. So more hugs and trust your instincts as I say.
And I'm afraid you might not like Stacy's answer on when Kaleb went back to the breast as I'm fairly sure she's going to answer that he didn't. But I'll let her tell you her story. Most nurslings on a nursing strike will return to the breast though it will certainly take longer than their mothers had wished.
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{{{{hugs}}}}
I totally agree with Emma and if you don't see an improvement, I would take her back to the doctor, and if she remains so lethargic, perhaps the ER. :-*
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If you have ANY concerns about dehydration, I would take your lo to the doctors straight away. Without hesitation.
I have at times frozen breastmilk to make popsicles, or momsicles as I have heard them called lately. Riley would accept those when all else failed. Any luck nursing in her sleep?
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I can see a baby who is used to taking breast and bottle going on strike and never nursing again, I think it would be very rare in a baby who nurses full time.
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How are you both this morning? Yesterday it definitely sounded like she was getting dehydrated. If she doesn't take in more today of some sort of fluids (some great ideas with bm'sicles), then I would take her to the doctor. :(
I've also done that -worn her around in a sling (or when she was smaller in my arms) with my shirt off and try to nurse her as we walked around.
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Hi all
Well, immediate crisis averted (I think). She started perking up in afternoon, and the drooler was back. She had a satisfying wet diaper in the evening, and .....
She slept 'til 4:45am this morning! Brief resettle (after a nursing attempt - failed) and up for the day at 6:30am! Thanks for the suggestions Stacy. I think the extra snack before bed really helped. Abby's having a momsicle right now (read about it on the web!). Sorry, gotta go. She's not really liking it! i'll check back later, but giant enormous THANKS to you all for the help. Hopefully she will decide to nurse again soon!
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Keep us all posted xx
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Hi..
I think, deep down, I'm starting to believe that she's done nursing. I'm almost absolutely sure there's nothing wrong physically with her. She's got a pretty strong will when it comes to food (pretty laid back with everything else), and it really seems like she's decided to be done with it. It's making me all weepy, thinking back to the last time she nursed, and how close and cuddly she was. I just came back from the doctor's again (Abby's got a splinter in her finger - ouch!), and he seems to think that she's done too. :'(
I am going to a breastfeeding clinic today to see what they think. I think, if she decides to start up again, it'll be when she feels like it. Nothing I do will change that. And sneaking up on her while she's sleeping won't work. *sigh*...
I'm starting to have another problem though. It's pretty hard to get the bm into her - she doesn't really like it. She really does prefer her solids. The doctor suggested starting up liquid calcium supplements, and increasing just water if she'll take it. He wasn't a fan of cow's milk products (yogurt, cheese) and told me to feed her goat's milk. What do you guys think? I barely get 4-5 ounces everytime i pump, and she'll take maybe 3-4 ounces 4 times a day. I sneak it in everywhere, but it's still not enough fluids.
Sorry, i feel like i'm overreacting. It's the first time she's been "sick", so i feel pretty helpless. Mommyhood is ripping my heart to shreds... :'(
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Poor you! I really feel for you both!! If she's done, then she's done, but I know it must be hard to think about it being over before you're ready. Someday it'll be good that she can be so firm about what she wants and doesn't want, I know, but right now it sucks. :(
As for cow's milk products, I know in Canada they don't recommend using milk prior to a year because it can cause small bleeding in the intenstines and possible anemia. I know the recommendations vary elsewhere though. I don't know anything about goat's milk.
And I DON'T think you're overreacting! I would be very broken up about this too!! (Even with just the splinter...)
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More huge hugs.
Don't give up hope just yet. Nursing strikes can seem so adamant and hopeless but the majority of babies do come out of them especially at her age. If she really isn't interested in ebm then I think you'll need to seriously consider introducing formula. It's more than simply calcium. Goats milk is used by some after 12 months but it isn't appropriate before then. There are similar issues as giving pure cow's milk - namely the high sodium content and protein overload which places a strain on young kidneys. Very high in Potassium and Chloride. Deficient in folic acid. Less zinc, B vitamins and iron. It can lead to anemia for a start. Formulas are a more nutritionally complete product and are just plain safer. We've also had some issues in the UK with the lack of regulation in the goat's milk industry and goat's milk formulas are no longer available here.
You are not overreacting. I know this must be scary. But there will be a resolution and hopefully it's the one you want. I hope the breastfeeding clinic has some answers. I know it must be tempting to keep going with larger quantities of solids but obviously that will affect her appetite for milk so it's a balance.
Maybe try another bath at some point.
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{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}
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Just offering more hugs.
You are doing what every GREAT mother would do. You know best for you and your babe and remember that.
I hope everything goes well when you see the LC.
HUGS
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Hi again
So, it's been 6 days since Abby last nursed. It's starting to feel like forever. Today, she fell off our bed when I wasn't looking, and cried so hard. I wish I could have nursed her. :'(
The clinic didn't really help. I had researched all I can on the net (and all the great advice from you ladies) and they were astonished at my vast knowledge ::) . I'm going to rent an electric pump tomorrow with the hopes that i'll get more than 4 ounces per session. It's not enough milk, and she's not drinking enough. It's a struggle to get her to finish it, and often it takes a few hours. How do bottle feeders do it? Do LOs finish their whole bottle in one sitting? I can't never get her to finish it. I'm thinking it's perhaps an issue with the cup. I've taken the non-drip thingy out, so it does flow really fast. She chokes pretty often, but she doesn't know how to use it with the non-drip. I remember your post Stacy about the sippy cups, and I'm trying to find a Tupperware one, but have to find a tupperware lady first. ::) This is sooo much harder than I thought it would be. Sterilising, pumping all the time, the cups, cleaning them, now the electric pump. Yesterday i went to somebody's house and forgot my manual pump there. I had to hand express last night, and it took forever. And I only got 2 ounces. :'( Needless to say, last night was pretty bad as she was hungry.
Anyways, enough of the pity rant. If this is how it's going to be, so be it. Thanks for the support.
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What a bummer about the clinic. And don't feel bad about having a pity rant - rant away.
Where are you abbysmomma? Are there any La Leche league's near you? You sound like you are in the US. You may find that even if you don't find a magic answer there is someone who has been through this and can offer support.
This link doesn't say much new but you can follow links to find local support.
http://www.lalecheleague.org/FAQ/strike.html
As for getting 2oz when hand expressing! I actually think that's pretty good! I can never get anything in the bloomin' cup - it flies all around the room ::)
4oz per session is good especially if you weren't even using an electric pump.
And do remember what Stacy says about less quantities of bm in comparison to formula - that's really crucial and is often forgotten. In fact Stacy is a very handy person to have around - her experience and dedication is priceless.
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Another option, depending where you are is to contact Dr Jack Newman and see if he has any other suggestions. He's the leading breastfeeding expert in Canada (really in North America, I think!) - he's based out of Toronto, but he takes phone calls, and emails (if they're not too long). Here's his contact info:
Questions? Contact Dr. Jack Newman
Option 1 : Dr. Jack Newman's Guide to Breastfeeding (called The Ultimate Breastfeeding Book of Answers in the USA)
Option 2: Email Dr. Jack Newman at drjacknewman@sympatico.ca (please keep brief)
Option 3: Call Dr. Jack Newman at 416- 813-5757
I know my sister got in touch with him when she was bfing and had problems and she said he was really nice.
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Just giving you some much needed hugs!!!!!!
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Thinking of you...how's it going today?
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Hi all
Thanks for all your words. Still no nursing but I'm still offering. It's scary as half the time she bites REALLY hard when i think she's about to latch. It's takes everything in me not to scream. She doesn't really cry anymore when i try to nurse. Just pushes me away.
I'm in Canada, and there are La Leche leagues here, but I've gone through their website FAQs, and talked to nurses who use the La Leche handbook. All the advice I've gotten (either through here, doctors, nurses, websites) is pretty much the same. I'm not going to stress over it anymore. Just keep offering, and maybe one day she'll take it. I am quite grateful that this didn't happen when she was younger. At least she takes solids. And now that her sippy cup drinking skills have improved, she's taking in a lot more. I don't have a back supply yet, so I'm still pumping and feeding, but i'm doing extra sessions to get a supply.
Through all this craziness, her night sleep had gotten pretty bad. My hand had become a prop, but thankfully last night, she slept with only two brief wakings at 3am and 4am. And woke up at 7:30am this morning happy. I really hope this continues and eventually progress to no wakings. I guess that's the good side to this - she's not eating at nights anymore.
Oh, and about the hand expressing? I'm pretty sure that there is at least an ounce of milk on my pants. I never realized how much I squirted! Geez, no wonder why Abby choked sometimes when nursing. I got a small electric pump yesterday and i love it! Not really for daily use, but so much better than pumping by hand.
Anyways, i think we've come through the other side of the crisis. Not really the way I wanted to, but Abby is her own person and I have to respect that. Eating and sleeping are very similar in one respect - we can only offer, but they must do it. We're only here to facilitate.
Thanks :-*
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I am going through a bit of a strike at the moment and I was wondering if your lo stopped all at once or stopped one or 2 feedings and gradually stopped all together?
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She stopped all at once. she nursed at 7:30am one morning, then refused when I offered at 11:30am. She hasn't nursed since last Tuesday. I think gradual stopping is a more true indication of weaning, whereas what I have is a nursing strike. How old is your LO? Fickle things, these LOs. I wonder what's going through their heads... ::)
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At least she doesn't cry when you offer anymore and just pushes you away - that's progress at least!
I'm not going to stress over it anymore. Just keep offering, and maybe one day she'll take it.
This sounds very wise.
Not really the way I wanted to, but Abby is her own person and I have to respect that. Eating and sleeping are very similar in one respect - we can only offer, but they must do it. We're only here to facilitate.
In fact you are sounding VERY wise today!
I'll continue to think of you and hope for the best.
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You sound so calm and (Emma's right!) wise. Thinking of you and sending {{HUGS}}.
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I'm in one of those pensive moods. Amazing what a night of good sleep will do to you. I almost sound sane! ::) Thanks Emma and Erin :-*
Thanks for the reply Stacy. I really do hope that's what happens.
Heehee.. i keep wanting to post, and you guys keep posting before I get to it! I love you guys!
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Right back atchya! ;)
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abbysmomma, my ds is 10 months. i really thought weaning would be more gradual. he has become a very active breast feeder...ie cannot lie still! I hope he doesn't want to wean :'( :'( :'(
Hope things turn for the better for you guys!