BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: dbj on July 03, 2007, 14:24:14 pm
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This is more of a need to talk it out thing...
My DD is 6 months & exclusively breast fed... well until just recently when we introduced cereal. Anyway, it's hard not to get discouraged sometimes. I guess I was really lucky for the first few months... maybe I got spoiled. She latched wonderfully from the beginning, fed well and I didn't have any issues other than occasional soreness. That is what I know refer to as "the good old days".
Now it's a different story. She doesn't feed well, except first thing in the morning. She struggles, fusses and cries (sometimes a lot!), she doesn't latch as well and I often have to flip her several times. It's tiring me out and stressing me out. I can handle a crying baby on my lap once in awhile but it's getting hard to handle so many times a day. I've been trying to ride it out, hoping things will improve but it just doesn't seem to be. I'm getting plugged ducts more now too. More biting but no teeth yet. It just seems like there's always something. I think she's on her 6 month growth spurt now and I've had to start feeding her a night again (she'd been without a night feed for over 2 months previously). I've been trying to increase her intake during the day so not to feed at night but it's not working, so I have to feed her. Nights have become quite bad and now I'm wondering how long this new night feeding will go on. I'm getting so tired! Though on a positive note, she's usually a model baby otherwise during the day. She naps wonderfully and is very good natured. I guess you can't have it all!
Anyway, I'm trying not to give up, but I'm having a hard time these days. I want to breastfeed for at least a year.... I think I can... I think I can.... but what if I cant?
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{{{{{hugs}}}}}
Can we help you look at your routine? Maybe there is some tweaking we can help with to make the feeds a little less stressful.
:-*
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Can I also ask how long have things been different? Does she seem 'not herself' in other ways? Could she be unwell or teething? When you give your routine can you give quantities of solids. Thanks.
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Big hugs to you! Yes, breastfeeding is hard!!!!! I sorta wish I'd been told that from the start so I would have been better prepared! But it's also wonderful, isn't it--for no matter how long you do it! The ladies on here give wonderful advice--I'm certain they'll be able to help a ton!!! I can see myself in your post--just wanted to give you an extra ounce of support!
Jen
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This is her routine:
E:8:00 am BF
E:8:30/9:00 Cereal (1 Tbsp)
S:9:30 - 11:00 (I've been trying to get her to do 10 - 11:30)
E: 12:00pm BF
S: 1:30 - 3:00 or 2:00 - 3:30
E: 4:00pm BF
E: 5:00 Cereal (1 Tbsp)
S: 5:30 - 6:00pm (sometimes goes down a little earlier)
E: 7:15pm BF
S: 7:30pm or so
Up until this week she was not eating at night at all. She would go until morning. I've had to feed her once a night for the last three nights at 12am, 4am & 1am and she takes a good feed. I think she's going through her 6 month growth spurt, as she's also been wanting to be fed earlier than usual during the day & I did give her an extra day feed as well the day before yesterday. We just started the cereal about 2 weeks ago.
It's been over a month... maybe two that she's been fussier. She has a great feed in the morning with the overnight breasts, but she's gotten frustrated that there's not as much milk at the other feeds. I've tried breast compressions but have had limited success with it. When it does work it doesn't work for long enough. She cries and wants to be flipped and then when both breasts are pretty drained she'll go on for a few sucks and pop off sometimes crying and go on and off and on and off with crying and coaxing, flipping in between for several more minutes. I have been trying to blame teething for awhile but I'm not sure if that's it or not. She doesn't have any teeth yet. For awhile she was chewing on things quite a bit more and clamping down on me sometimes, but that's sort of gone down for the time being. I don't know. Otherwise she's been great. She's a happy and content baby during the day. She doesn't cry very much other than at feedings. She naps well. Nights have gotten worse.
I'm just getting worn out. Pumping hasn't gone well for me either. I have breastfed her for every feeding since she was born. I really want to continue, but it's getting harder on me.
Thanks for all your comments & suggestions.
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6 months is about the time they drop the cat nap.... so her waking at night may be related to too much day sleep (although, growth spurt is possible too). This may mean adjusting bedtime to be a little earlier until she adjusts.
She should also be able to handle 2 hours of A time at this point, so she may not be ready for a nap at 9:30 (unless that is what you meant by trying for 10 for a nap).
Those are just my first fly-by thoughts about your routine.
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Sorry more questions!
How has her weight gain been the last month or so? Are you seeing lots of wet nappies/diapers (around 6 in 24 hours)?
How many minutes does she feed for before getting frustrated/upset? Is there a chance she could actually be finished and getting frustrated because you are trying to keep the feed going?
Growth spurts can definitely make babies more restless and frustrated at the breast as well.
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There is definitely 6+ wet diapers per day. I will be going to the doctor next week and will get her weighed, but I think she's been gaining. She's just starting to fit some more clothes now. She is a small baby... she was 11 lbs at 5 months (so she's probably about 11.5 now), I don't know if that makes a difference.
In the morning she feeds for 10 mins - 5 mins each side then done. At the other times she goes about 3 mins on each side initially (sometimes a bit less) and then starts getting frustrated. I try to flip and keep her going so that the whole feed including time off the breast is about 12-15 mins, so she's probably only eating less than 10 mins. I've thought that I'm trying to keep her going when she doesn't want to, but she often does seem to want more and goes to take the breast again after pauses & burps etc...
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She should also be able to handle 2 hours of A time at this point, so she may not be ready for a nap at 9:30 (unless that is what you meant by trying for 10 for a nap).
I am trying to get her to stay up until 10, but she's often tired before that. I have been getting her to 9:45 a few days though. She often does wake up at 7:30am though and I feed her a bit before 8, so I guess she's up a bit longer. Thank you for the tip about dropping the cat nap at this point though. She has no trouble going down for naps, but has been having trouble at bedtime (always the worst feed of the day as well), and that is probably why.
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A couple more things. Wondering & worrying as usual.
DD is a small baby, about 11.5 lbs at 6 months, so would I be reasonable in assuming that her intake of breast milk would likely be smaller than that of larger babies? If that's the case, and she's gotten to be very efficient at feeding, I guess she could be done a feed in 5 - 8 mins? I guess I'm just gaging how long I think she should be feeding by the fact that I know she's filled up in the morning after going 9-10 mins straight. Maybe I shouldn't be assuming that she needs to take the same amount at every feed? Though she does keep going for more even when frustrated at the other feeds. Sometimes if I sing or stand up and sway it helps but not always.
I'm also confused as to what roll, if any, teething could play in this since she feeds so well in the morning. Could it be possible that it wouldn't bother her in the morning, but would later in the day? That's my confusion in general, why does she feed well in the morning but not at other times... that's why I think it's the amount of milk/flow. Is there anything other than breast compressions that I can try?
Sorry for all the rambling, but I feel so confused!
Thank you, I truly appreciate it.
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Intake of milk and length of feed bear no relation to one another. A young baby might take 30 minutes to take in 2oz. An older baby might take 5-20 minutes to take in 6oz.
Intake does vary during the day. They tend to take more at the first feed because letdown is naturally faster first thing in the day and they are hungrier after the longer interval. Letdown slows as the day goes on.
If breast compressions haven't helped and you do really feel you are seeing frustration at the breast because she wants more milk - are her intervals then shorter after the 'frustrated' feeds?
If you do feel your supply might be an issue here it might be worth taking a few measures to try and give it a boost - make sure you are drinking plenty (especially as the day goes on. Sometimes the evening feed is poorer if a mother hasn't kept herself hydrated properly). You could also consider using some pumping to try and send signals to your breasts to increase signals (not to have milk to give her in a bottle - but literally to send those signals). I wouldn't bother pumping after the morning feed if that's never a problem but perhaps after the feeds later in the day you could spend 10 minutes doing some pumping (both sides, a few minutes on each side - e.g. 3 min, 3 min, 2min, 2 min). Because it's directly after a feed initially you may well get nothing out but you are sending those signals that a little more might be needed. After 2-3 days you should notice a different.
I think when babies are tired teething is often more of a factor (like we would be if we had a niggling underlying discomfort that we could ignore when we were feeling fresh). What signs of teething are you noticing?
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Things that I think are related to teething are: increased biting/chewing, in particular she now seems to like the teethers that come out of the fridge, she is also drooling more than she used to and I think her gums are swollen (I don't know if it's just me, but I didn't really look at them before so that I would know the difference, but they do look like it).
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Now I am freaking out.
I just went for DD's 6 month check & vaccines. She was weighed and is now 11 lbs, 10 oz, and she's fallen off the chart. She is still gaining weight, but not as much as she should be I guess. The doctor said it's not a huge concern at this point, but is a bit. She said that I should add a breast feed during the day, and also double her cereal intake. Maybe this was why she just started wanting a night feed again this week after not having any for over 2 months?
So would it be better to go down to a 3ish hour schedule or add another bf in the evening as a cluster feed (in which case it would probably cause more frustration at the breast? I feel so bad. I do feed her early if she's asking for it, but I guess I haven't been feeding her enough.
Thank you for any advice or comments.
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I don't have any advice on scheduling, but I would ask - have you gotten your period back? I noticed a LOT of frustration/hunger in my lo right around the time I got my 1st period, and it has recurred now I am expecting the next one. I discussed this last month with Samuel's Mom, and she recommended I take calcium supplements in the week before period is due - definitely helps!
Have you tried fenugreek & blessed thistle? Helps my production a lot. Also, I have read that the pumping as recommended above will stimulate specifically hindmilk, which will boost the richness/calories for your lo.
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What kind of chart are you using? Is it adjusted for bf babies?
Please don't feel bad. Weight gain varies enormously among healthy bf babies and people generally. It's not the only way to measure how a baby is doing but for some reason we've all become obsessed by it. She hasn't wanted a nightfeed for 2 months! Heck! That doesn't sound like an underfed baby to me!!!
You could consider reducing the intervals between feeds. Perhaps go down an EAEASY route (with a short second A) rather than adjust EASY schedule and expect A times and S times to go back as well. I personally would suggest that rather than just double the intake of cereal you consider introducing a food like avocado or other foods high in calories.
If you don't feel cluster feeding would work at this point I wouldn't be surprised.
But also think about the quality of your feeds not just the quantity. If she's not that hungry she's likely to simply take less at a feed. Do think about pumping to stimulate your supply as I mentioned before - as the PP says it will increase your production of hindmilk.
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I'm not sure what chart my Dr. plots on, but she does know that I am breast feeding. She has asked to see us additional times so she can monitor DDs weight. I am struggling with this because on one hand, I don't like the whole falling off the chart thing and where she's so small, and on the other hand, she is a generally happy baby, so she doesn't appear to be suffering or unhealthy or failing to thrive as it were (though the Dr. didn't use that phrase). I just don't know why she would suddenly start night feedings after not needing them for so long, other than she's not getting enough.
So with EAEASY would it be say if I fed her every 3 hours and just worked that around her current nap and A times, is that what you mean?
I am also at the point where I will intro veggies & fruits. I don't even think I could stuff her with double the cereal. I think that would be better too, rather than continue with just cereal.
Thanks.
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Yes, I just mean don't change her whole EASY. Keep her sleep and A times age appropriate. Just try and squeeze in some more milk with either improved feeds or more (but more feeds won't necessarily mean more intake so it's not so straightforward).
she is a generally happy baby, so she doesn't appear to be suffering or unhealthy or failing to thrive as it were
That's the big picture don't forget that.
What chart you are using makes a huge huge difference. Maybe have a look at the bf charts from the WHO on the FAQ board.
Night feedings happen for a huge bunch of reasons. Wakings happen for developmental reasons and when awake milk seems like a good idea. Babies get more active and their need for calories increase. Sometimes extra wakings occur when babies start solids (their digestive feels a little uncomfortable - especially with cereal) and the breast is soothing. Or they have taken less milk overall in the day because of their solids intake and make up for it at night. Or they are more active in the day, more distracted during feeds and compensate at night. I could go on.
If she wasn't 'getting enough' she'd be unsettled, fussy during or after a feed or very soon after a feed. You'd perhaps see several night wakings for a start.
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Well she has been fussy during feeds, which was my original reason for posting (I still am not sure why) and she has been waking a lot more frequently at night. It's all so hard to determine. There are so many causes and effects for so many things. She's also just started rolling a great deal so that could be a factor as well. I just don't want it to be that I'm not feeding her enough. We've been on a 3.5/4 hour routine for sometime now so I guess I'm just confused as to how I know she's having enough.
Thanks for all the help.
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You'd see her fussy during and after feeds - not wanting the feed to end. And she'd be desperate well before 3.5 hours. She's wouldn't last that long.
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Ok, this is my last batch of questions...
I understand what you're saying about quality of feeds, and I am feeling that reducing the interval may not be the way to go. I guess it's wanting to do what's best and not knowing what it is. I did plot DD on the WHO growth charts and she did fall off those as well. Though I don't know if it would be less concerning if she were a larger baby and just fell a few percentiles vs. being small and falling off the bottom.
In regards to pumping, I did try pumping after her 2nd feed of the day. Almost nothing came out (not even enough to cover the bottom of the bottle. Will milk production still be stimulated? I have never been a good pumper. The most I have ever got is 3 oz, and I have tried at different times of the day.
Thank you.
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Pumping after the feed is definitely a good way to go. You are sending the message to the breasts - 'ladies, you think the feed is finished but actually there is more demand more so more hindmilk is needed'. Initially virtually nothing will likely come out. But after a couple of days or so (just like with a growth spurt) production will increase. After 4-5 days there will be more hindmilk produced. Then you just have to try and encourage her to stay on the breast longer and take it - perhaps with breast compression.
If you don't want to reduce intervals all day long maybe you could do just one round of EAEASY. So perhaps one extra feed could squeeze into the morning (when supply is often good and rich in hindmilk).
Do you mind me asking what her birth weight was? I'm guessing she lost some weight initially. Do you remember how long it took for her to return to her birth weight?
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Her birth weight was 5 lbs 11oz. She dropped down to 5 lbs 4 oz. in the first few days and then was back over her birth weight by about one week old. She was weighed at 8 days at 5 lbs 14 oz.
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Wow! That was a good first week! You judge from the lowest point so she's more than doubled her weight since then.
A total gain of 6lbs 6oz.
Babies double their birth weight in the first 4-6 months. And she's done that. She's gained weight steadily. Yes, she's off the chart but she's still got her own curve.
It won't hurt to have a focus on boosting your supply. But remember your doctor is not panicking or telling you to supplement. You've got time. Good luck with the pumping. Let us know how you get on.
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Just thought I'd post a bit of an update to show that things can get better.
I just had DD weighed today and she's seemed to kick it into high gear and gained about a pound in the last 2-3 weeks. This is amazing, since her weight gain has only been about a 1/2 pound a month for the last couple months! She still below the chart, but she's climbing.
She has also become somewhat less fussy at the breast as well. I did do a bit of pumping (when I could get the chance) to increase my supply. I tried reducing the interval between feeds one day, but she just wasn't really interested, which just goes to show that it's not as simple as feeding more times. I just really tried to focus on giving her quality feeds and making it less stressful for both of us. I do have a feeling like my supply has "caught up" in some way. I wonder if it's just a kick start after her 6 month growth spurt. I've also since introduced some vegetables and she has been eating well, though still in fairly small quantities. She has still been taking a night feeding, but the length of the feed has already begun to decrease so I'm hopeful that she will give it up soon. Unrelated, but she's also started sitting about a week ago (just thought I'd throw that in).
Anyway, this is all to say, thank you for all the support and advice. I'm sure it's some long combination of things that changed, but I'm happy to report that things have improved (not perfect, but improved).
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That's all such happy news. Thank you so much for the update.
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Wonderful news! :)