BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: babybarr on June 20, 2009, 20:03:58 pm
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DS was one yesterday. For the last 4 weeks or so he has been waking in the night for 1.5hrs + tossing and turning and not asleep. He's not crying but isn't sleeping. He started STTN at 10wks old and would do 11 - 12 hrs straight. He's been a short napper his whole life until about 12 weeks ago when I fixed his nap times and for the first time ever he started taking 2 good naps. On the advice of many when this started I spent a good week making his am nap later and giving a catnap and for 5 days he started sleeping better. Now it has started up again. My doctor and HV say I shouldn't worry and leave him be as he's not crying but he can't carry on like this as it's now affecting his days as he's knackered - and mine!!!
His routine on one nap was looking like this and like I said worked for a good 5 days...
wake around 6.30am
nap 11.30 (this would vary in length between 1.5 - 2hrs)
bed for 6.30 or earlier if nap was short.
The last few days have been a nightmare and I don't know what to do.
Last night he woke from 9.30pm - 11.30pm and 4.30am - 6.30am when we got up.
He isn't distressed but NOT asleep.
Help geratly received!!!
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My guess is those molars are starting to bother him. They're probably not so painful they make him cry, just painful enough to make sleeping difficult. Have you ever had a mild headache wake you in the middle of the night? It's not quite bad enough to get up and take aspirin, but if you don't you just sort of toss and turn 'cuz it's uncomfortable? I suspect the sensation is something like that.
Try some meds before bed and/or at that NW and see if that helps any.
Also a question about timing -- has he been on 1 nap the full 4 weeks? or did this sleep problem start before you tried the 1 nap thing?
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I have found with my LO that if he is OT when he goes to sleep of a night we often have a NW about 3 hours after he goes down....perhaps your LO is just taking a bit of time to get used to the 1 nap transition? I'm no expert we are having wonky sleeps at the moment too, so I'll send you some hugs
xxLizzie
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Becky, the sleep problem started before we I decided to change slowly to one nap. Before he was definitely much more awake and playful, the changing to the one nap has helped a bit I think. If he has a very bad night he'll have a long am nap and then a catnap (if I can get him to take it so it does vary a little from day to day. He had another goodish night on saturday after bad naps, I offered 2 cos he'd had a bad night but he had bad naps too so was knackered!
I was starting to wonder if it was the molars...he currently has 7 teeth (4 top, 3 bottom) that 8th one seems to be taking ages to appear and I guess the molars are next? I have been giving him meds at bedtime so will start giving them as soon as he wakes in the night and see what happens.
How long ideally should the one nap be if he does about 11.5hrs at night and what sort or time usually?
Thanks for your help.
Laura xx
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What we typically do is have the nap occur 4.5-5 hours after they wake up. Now, if LO gets up at 6 that just doesn't work b/c ideally nap should happen around 11:30-12 so that a 2 hour nap gets you to 1:30/2 and a 6:30/7 bedtime is within 5 hours.
If your LO can't make 4.5-5 hours of A time yet then he's probably not quite ready for a daily 1 nap. He might be ready for 1 nap 2 or 3 days a week though, but then will have to catch up on sleep on the other days. He's a bit on the young side for 1 nap, but it's not unheard of!
Hope the meds work! That would be my guess!
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He tends to go down for his nap around 11.30am, he generally wakes up between 6 and half past but he will go down ealier if he's tired. How can I get him to take a 2 hr nap though??!! today he did 1 hr 20mins - which is fairly typical and woke up happy enough. He went down today at 6.10pm as I couldn't get another catnap in. I hear what you're saying about one nap and many days in the last couple of weeks he's had one long nap and a catnap usually catnap in afternoon. He's always been low on daily sleep and always been very good at night which is why this is a bit of a mystery!!
Tonight I'll do meds after 10mins of him tossing and turning and not settling, he had meds before going to bed.
Your Owen looks like a bundle of fun!!
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Ok so they day before yesterday he had nap of 1hr 20mins at 11.30 was in bed by 6.15 and slept through ( I think) till 5.45am, I went and gave him a cuddle and he went back to sleep. Yesterday however was a different story....nap at 11.30am he slept for 1hr 40mins bed and asleep by 6.30 he woke at 7.15ish tossing and turning and crying a bit for about half hr then woke at midnight when I gave him meds, he went back to sleep till 3.30 when he was tossing and turning for a little while the woke at 5.20am and wouldn't settle.
Literally at my limit now and not sure what to do. Any suggestions please? He does seem to sleep a bit better on one nap although I'm aware that early waking in the evening is supposed to indicate OT but why is he spending SO much time awake in the night if he's OT?
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Actually, a waking 45 minutes after going to sleep says discomfort to me to be honest. Usually they'll sleep a good 3-6 hours before having an OT waking. So I think you did the right thing giving meds. Did you give Tylenol by chance? If so, then that 3:30 waking sounds like the meds were wearing off. If you gave Motrin, then it's possible that it just didn't help enough. Molars hurt!
I think the timing of everything sounds pretty good -- he's having a decent nap length and is going down pretty easily. Also, you had a great night the previous day. It's *possible* that he can handle that schedule for 1 day but the next day he's just going to be a tad too tired to make it, so you might try alternating 1 and 2 nap days. Offer a VERY short AM nap around 3.5-4 hours after waking (15-20 min) and then longer nap a good 4 hours after that. So, with a 5:45 waking I'd probably offer nap around 9:45 waking at 10, and then longer nap at 2 (hopefully waking at 3:30) and then bed around 7:30 (hopefully asleep by 8).
It's probably just going to take trial and error and WHY God planned to give toddlers molars when they're also struggling to move to 1 nap I'll never know! One of those questions for the pearly gates, I suppose! :)
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Ok thanks for that. I'm in uk and not sure what tylenol or motrin is sorry - I gave paracetamol and at his night waking. Do you think Ibuprofen would be better?
My mum usually looks after him and she has a school run so I have to get the nap in bfore 3pm. I've been giving a short am nap around 9am if he's been waking a lot in the night or has woken early.
Today he did...
woke 5.20am!!!! - dozed on and off though
nap 9 - 9.45am
nap 12.45 - 2pm (I guess maybe if the first nap was shorter he may have done longer - or if I had the option to make it later perhaps)
Bed asleep at 6.30pm
We'll see what happens tonight. He's had meds again. How long do you think before the molars come in? We've been having these funny wakings for a while now.
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Yes, ibuprofin is better.
If you're stuck having your nap at a certain time b/c of school then make sure you really limit that first nap to no more than 20 or 30 min. That should help give you more sleepies for pM nap!
Every kid is different on how long teeth take. There's 4 molars so it can take a month or more.
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Hey sweetie,
One note, if your LO has a sensitive tummy paracetamol is better than ibuprofin. Our LO has reflux and we were advised against using it regularly. Seriously your night wakings sound A LOT like what we have been having, and we think it's teeth. Our LO has just cut two molars and is cutting one of his bottom teeth and we have been having a really rough time too...
Last night and tonight have been the first two nights where we haven't had a massive screaming session and reflux session at bed time for weeks...it was SO nice! Don't even care what the night is like really, that easy settle down was a gift!!
I can usually tell when our DS has teeth coming at least a month before they get close to cutting...It's a tough call, but the pain seems to come and go a bit and I medicate as I feel he needs it (try not to do too much, but feel in the past I have done too little)..
Good luck sweetie
Lizzie
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Thanks Lizzie that's nice to know -sorry for you though too!
DS has reflux to and another ongoing medical condition. So we should give paracetamol is that what's better for reflux bubs or refrain from meds atall??
The way he lies on one side of his face then turns to the other and back again I definitely think he's uncomfortable and teeth would be the obvious thing. He got all four top teeth at one and that was a nightmare too!
What sort of meds do you give and when and is your DS grumpy in the day or not too bad?
Thanks again for posting, I don't feel quite so alone!! - although Becky you've been really great BTW!! :)
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Hey lovely,
My pharmacist said that I could use ibuprofen if I needed too (ie if paracetamol wasn't helping, for example if it wasn't bringing a fever down) but that it was better to stick with paracetamol. I use teething gel too to give some instant relief and lots of mums post about herbal tablets (think they are in the UK) to help too.
Our LO isn't usually too grumpy during the day, especially when he is playing. He has just had a cold and was pretty cranky during the day and occasionally if I thought he was pulling at his ears or scratching at his face a lot I would give a dose of Dymadon then (paracetamol)...He would literally see me and start screaming at me...it was SO nice when our happy little boy came back :)
I usually tried not to dose with paracetamol until nap times and sleep time at night, just to help him settle down (and it REALLY did help) and I would totally suggest you try it and see if it helps. It will do no harm if that isn't the problem and if the teeth are bothering him then some pain relief will do him the world of good (a good nights sleep for all is a beautiful thing). We find that our LOs reflux flares up really badly around teething too, although our paed says that they are unrelated....not sure about that one, so we do end up doing a lot of cuddling in the middle of the night and relaxing about self settling, use dummies/paci if we really need to etc..
Honestly why do they always bring so many teeth through together????Our LO does the same, it's a nightmare!!! Poor little sausage has bumps everywhere in his mouth (although as my mum says at least it will be over fairly quickly LOL)...it's no wonder he has issues sometimes, added to that the reflux....It's SO SO tiring isn't it??!!!
You are not alone sweetie, chat to me any time you want. I don't pretend to have wonderful knowledge or advice, in fact some days I feel like the most useless mother on earth, but I am so happy to help in any way that I can :)
Many HUGE HUGS
Lizzie
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Thanks, I have been giving him meds at bedtime and now have been trying at the NWs and after he's had the meds usually within 30mins he's asleep which would suggest discomfort wouldn't it? How old is your LO Lizzie? Oliver is sort of transitioning to the one nap as well as you probably have read but I can't seem to get him to have a 1.75 - 2hr nap. He does occasionally do about 1hr 40mins but today it was 1hr 10mins and obviously this isn't enough to see him through the day so I try to get a catnap into him but this doesn't always work!! Maybe I should try meds 30mins before a nap and see if that helps - what do you think? I feel bad to keep dosing him up though....
I'm sure we all feel pretty useless sometimes as a mother I know I do. DS has had a rocky ride, he's never been "well" I put it down to reflux which I had to really fight to get a diagnosis and some support and after pushing for a second opinion they said yes he does have reflux but they also discovered he has a rare blood condition called autoimmune neutropenia and since they diagnosed that he's been in and out of hospital. However at least since discovering this and putting him on daily antibiotics he's become much happier and content during the day, something I thought wasn't ever going to happen.
Anyway don't mean to ramble.....catnap looks like it's unsuccessful so I guess a mega early bedtime and crossed fingers and toes!!
Hope you have a good night.
Laura xx
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Hey Laura,
Our little man, Dyllan is 15 months old....and yes I think we are going through the 2 to 1 transition too, so things are a bit wonky. Some days he will have a good long nap (almost 2 hours) and other days it's a little over an hour. I have found keeping him up a little longer than the 4 hours he was doing helps, but it's a fine line between tired enough and OT....Also our LO isn't great with an early bed time, so if the day naps are short we struggle a bit!
Since he has gone onto the Elecare elemental formula he has been vomiting again, so horrible when he is half asleep and chucks, poor little darling...did that tonight and it made it difficult as I had put him down early, then he chucked and then couldn't get back to sleep...But then if it stops the "silent" reflux I still think it's worth it. Will have to talk to the paed again.
So what does your LOs condition entail? I assume it's to do with over active white blood cells causing an autoimmune problem? If he is on antibiotics a lot can you team that with a good pro-biotic to keep his tummy happy (I would imagine the antibiotics would make the reflux flare up??)...or is that a no-no with his condition? I feel for you, so much. It must be dreadful having your precious little one in and out of hospital...HUGE HUGS xx
I feel bad dosing our LO up too, but the way I figure it is if I had massive pain from teeth (I did when I had braces as a kid) I would take paracetamol....I don't tend to give it for every nap or night waking, I kind of test the water first and see if I can do other things to help, but if I'm sure he is struggling (all the pulling at ears and face etc) then I give it and if nothing else seems to work I will also give him some. As I said I tended to under dose in the earlier days and that didn't work very well....
If we have been struggling and giving pain meds for a couple of nights in a row, I tend to stop....reassess....try without and try for a few nights without again. If it doesn't work and he seems to be in pain, I go back to dosing him. Same during the day (although I use it MUCH less during the day), if he really seems "off" I give it a go.
It is such a guessing game even without extra medical issues.
xx Huge Hugs to you all
Lizzie
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Hi Lizzie
DS - Oliver - produces neutrophils (the white blood cell used to fight infection) but also produces antibodies to kill them off!! So consequently his cell count should be 1 or over and it's 0.1. This means as soon as he gets the slightest sign of infection i.e. temperature he goes into hopsital where they want to give him IV antibiotics but can never get a cannula in so very often he has injected antibiotics - very strong and give him very bad diarrhoea. He is on a once daily antibiotic so not too bad. He's cowmilk intolerant too so I think probiotics are probably out unfortunately.
Oliver did the whole go to bed then chuck last night too! He used to be really bad but his reflux is easing although when he's ill or teething it seems to be worse.
I know what you mean about the fine line between OT and UT....
With regard to the ibuprofen I've started to give it with a meal - as an adult that's what you're supposed to do so I figured that'd be the same??? I barely give Oliver meds during the day either, just at bed when he really seems to struggle.
I just can't believe this has been going on for weeks now with little improvement, I'm starting to lose the plot here.
Hugs right back to you, do you only have Dyllan or more children?
Laura xx
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Hey Laura,
Hang in there lovely, one day Oliver will get up and then suddenly you will think, WOW he's back!!! Those teeth are just so hard, I think especially when there are other things going on too. I really do find that I can tell at least a month before the teeth show up that he isn't himself, sometimes it's longer. I remember thinking I was going completely insane when he was cutting his front teeth....wondered why he was so cranky, why things were so hard, why I was getting sick....then I saw them descending!!
Geeze it must be so hard to have to take him in for antibiotic shots all the time, is this going to be something for life or do they think it will ease up as the immune system matures? I hope that it gets better lovely. Bummer about the probiotics, but sounds like it probably wouldn't make a huge difference anyway...Sounds like you have it under control, but I feel for you, it must be hard!!
I have a step daughter, Lauren also. She is with us on the weekends (normally every second one) and she is just wonderful. 6 years old and gorgeous...kind hearted, loves Dyllan. We are very very lucky xx
Funny that you were having a rough night too. Dyllan hasn't really chucked much since 6 months so this vomiting is unusual...we think it may have something to do with the new formula, but then we need to stay on it for a bit to see if it helps too...
Better run, lots of hugs, keep chatting
Lizzie
xx
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Just a quickie as things going badly :(
I thought I'd see what happens if I didn't give meds at bedtime tonight ....BIG mistake! He went down fine but woke kinda whinging at 8.30pm - gave him cuddle and then the tossing and turning started - like we've been having in the middle of the night - gave meds at 8.45 but 30mins later he hasn't settled. I think this though has confirmed what I have thought and that is the tossing and turning is related to discomfort - would you agree?
I thin he could do one nap he if was sleeping well at night - he used to do 11.5hrs pretty much. The thing is I've been limiting the am nap to 45mins but he still will usually only take a 1 - 1.25hr pm nap. I just can't win!
How's Dyllan been today - what did you decide about his new milk? I think Oliver was sick because I gave him baked beans for dinner! I don't think tomato agrees with him that much!
Sounds like your step daughter is a very lovely little girl.
I didn't think teeth could really cause all this???
Thanks for your replies it's nice to "chat" to someone who knows how I feel.
Laura xxx
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Hey Laura,
I have spent a LOT of time convincing my DH that teeth can cause SO many issues, he always freaks out when we are in the middle of another dreadful teething patch thinking that there is something really really wrong with Dyllan. I guess the way I reassure him is just to say that if there was something really wrong it would be causing problems ALL the time, not just at night time and a bit of grumbling during the day...Honestly though, when the teething begins I start wondering if I'm going insane and I'm a grumpy horrible person and the worst mum in the world....then I see the teeth coming, they cut and we have our lovely little man back....I think when there are other medical complications teething can really be a challenge for you all. I sort of feel that our baby has tummy related issues, teething mucks his tummy up so those issues get much more pronounced...may be I'm wrong, but we just muddle through as best we can!!
One thing I though with the new milk was it never seems to cause him probs in the morning...then the other night when I was feeding him I realised I was loosening the top off the bottle a LONG way, a habit from when we were using thickened formula (to help him get it down)...I think I may have been causing huge pockets of wind in his tummy by doing this. We haven't had any vomiting the last couple of nights, so fingers crossed that was the problem. Also I'm trying to bring his dinner forwards so it's not as much food all one after the other :)
Ahh sweetie, it's lovely talking to you too!!! Sometimes it's great to be able to chat to someone who hasn't had a "perfect" run with their bub....Some days I just feel so useless when I can't help our little man and then I get crabby, which is the WORST thing I can do (subjective parenting...) but it is hard sometimes and I'm not even dealing with all the extra stuff that you guys are coping with. I think you are doing an amazing job!!
I would keep up the pain meds if they are helping, obviously the other night didn't work well without so sounds like they are helping! Have you looked into any of the nautropathic/homeopathic teething things too?
Big Hugs to you all
Lizzie
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I know what you mean about being crabby - I get SOOOO moody with no sleep I think DH is about ready to throw me out!!
His 8th tooth still hasn't appeared yet which is irritating, his 7th one arrived about 3/4weeks ago and we had this tossing and turning probably for about 2/3 weeks before - I lose track!
Last night it was so hot here - I assume you're not uk based given the time you post?
The meds do seem to be helping I just feel bad dosing what seems to be every night and often once in the night too.
I think Oliver also has "tummy" issues. He didn't start solids properly till he was 8mths because he couldn't handle them, and now he just seems to be very sensitive to what I give him. I often wonder if it's tummy ache at night which keeps him awake - something you probably wonder too.
Most of the homeopathic stuff has lactose in which given we're not sure if he's lactose intolerant I don't want to risk - also DH spent a lot of money on homeopathy for himself with no success whatsoever - so am a bit cynical about the whole thing!
How was last night for you guys?
L xx
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L -- the tummy ache thing is a distinct possibility. I had a guy who couldn't eat a lot of foods without it causing a tummy ache. Now that he's 3 we know that he's allergic to wheat and eggwhites, and has always had gas problems so veggies would cause him incredible pain as a baby.
If I were you, I'd cut out: wheat, dairy, and give him only non-gassy veggies. For us, even apples and pears caused trouble b/c they loosen stool and create gas. See if that helps a bit! We couldn't do any cereals as they made his tummy hurt so much. Right now he's on a gluten free diet.
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Hello, I just wanted to give an fyi about the probiotics- you can get just probiotics in a bottle & mix them w/ other food, you don't just have to get them from yogurt (which many lactose intolerant people can tolerate because it is already partially digested). In fact it is better because you get a stronger dose of probiotics. It may help w/ his tummy issues since he is constantly on antibiotics.
Also, I just wanted to tell you we are in the same boat as you. Julissa just had 4 teeth pop out over the past month. She is still fighting going to sleep in the night time. The other night it took her 2 hrs, and some nights she has nws that last 1.5 hrs or so. She is so ot at this point which makes things worse. She acts fine during the day and only shows signs during the night.
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Dyllan cries in the night and cries and refluxes then farts a few times and can re-settle. From what I can tell gassiness and reflux go hand in hand, but I keep trying to tell Dyllan that he is a boy he's supposed to take pride in farting LOL!!!
No we aren't in the UK, we are in Australia so it's very cold here at the moment!!! Finally had some rain which is great, had been a very dry winter till now!! (bad for getting washing dry though...I know you can sympathise!!)
We are off dairy and soy at present trying to determine if our LO has MSPI...since his reflux is going on for so so long. I hope that it is this as we can definately deal with it. Our Ped listened to LOs tummy last appointment and commented that "he had a lot going on down there" so I have my fingers crossed that this will help heaps!!
I am also a little unsure about homeopathy, although I used to get sick a LOT and a naturopath really sorted me out (I get sick like a normal person now, I even get over one before the next one starts which is refreshing...although this month has been different)...I think it depends a lot on your naturopath and the nature of the problem..
Last night was pretty rough, massive chuck before bed (all the formula came up) but I'm sure it was from over feeding last night because we ate a bit late...I was disorganised. Knew I shouldn't have given him the bottle too! Hopefully tonight's ok.
How are you going? If your DH gets frustrated with you put him on and I'll sort him out LOL....You are doing great sweetie, it's just hard. Hard with a little one when they don't have problems, even harder if they do!
Huge hugs to you
xxoo
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Lilflav - thanks for the tips about probiotics I'll look into that, please feel free to join in with Lizzie and I in our rants about long NWs!! Julissa sounds like Oliver - an uncomfortable owl - how I wish it was during the day.
Becky, he doesn't have dairy already, I may lay of the wheat and see what happens...
Lizzie - DH ok really he has to be to put up with my grumpiness!! Sorry formula not going great we tried nutramigen and that just made Oliver poorly! He's still on soy which seems to be the best. Oliver farts loads too! He's had really loose stools too - maybe that teeth influenced? You must be doing a great job with Dyllan if you can keep encouraging me. :) :)
Hugs to you all.
Laura xx
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Ah Laura,
Trust me I have my days, sometimes I turn into a grumpy nasty shouting monster....it's dreadful!! Most of the time though I'm ok these days, I guess it's easier than it was, we have more answers than we did, we do have Dyllan on meds which have helped etc....Also our Little man is just delightful, so bright and lovely :)
I know what you mean about your DH, mine often comments that I'm not as happy as I used to be, but then I have never in my life been more sleep deprived for such a long time (and I used to shift work....did up until 2 weeks before Dyllan was due!!)...Luckily he understands most of the time and deals with the grumps when he has to...bless him!!
Dyllan does a lot more BMs and they can be runnier around teething...often burn his skin too, so figure his tummy is a bit of a mess around teething which often seems never ending tbh!!!
We haven't been advised to go off wheat yet, off dairy and soy for two weeks now, so fingers crossed things start getting easier. Was up with Dyllan 3 or 4 times last night, easy to re-settle after a few minutes of back rubs, but still tiring for me!! This morning my DH said, gee he has had a rough night hasn't he??? My response was (snap) how would you know????....oops, very unfair comment!!
Hope you had a good night, great big hugs! Oh btw there are some great recipes on the MSPI Recipe thread if you are interested....I've tried a few now and they are yummmmm...I was worried that I would struggle without the dairy, but going ok so far :P
Big hugs to you and Oliver :)
Lizzie
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Oliver was back to doing his wide awake routine for an hr + last night. This is how it started before the tossing and turning hence trying the one nap thing... I'm in a vicious circle, he can't do one nap if he has a bad night but then several days on a 45min am nap and 1.25hr ish pm nap he's spending time awake in the night. I just feel like I can't win and the last few days he's been napping very badly as well which really isn't helping.
I'll look up those recipes - thanks for the tip.
Any hints to keep cool in the hot weather - given where you live! Bare in mind though we don't have air con and can't afford to get it!!
Hugs to you all too.
L xx
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Hmm we always have a fan on in our LOs room, that helps quite a lot. You can also put a fan infront of a container of water so the fan blows across the water (kind of works like an evaporative air conditioner)....obviously can't do this while LO is up and need to be sure the power cords are no where near the water.
A cool bath or shower just before bed will help to cool your LO down before bed which may help...When we had really really hot days I stripped our LO down and put cold face washers on his head, fruit juice icy poles or ice blocks. Lots of water games in the bath or playing in a bucket of water on the lino floor.
We have a heat pump/air con unit thankfully (was a wedding present everyone chipped in for) which we did have to turn on for a couple of days, bliss...My only other piece of advice is put Oliver in his pram and go to a shopping mall in the air conditioning during the hottest part of the day. If he doesn't sleep at least you know he is cool!!!
Hugs to you lovely, it is hard in hot weather, at least in the cold you can rug them up!!! Our little man never sleeps well when it's too hot, so I can sympathise with you
xx Lizzie
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Hi Lizzie - if you're online what time is it....something ridiculous?!
He was awful last night but it was SO hot (well for Britain anyway!)
I'm really starting to think all this can it really just be teeth given I've yet to see any evidence of any new ones etc...I'm really getting disheartened at the moment and just can't believe this has been going on so long - now he's taking a crappy nap :( :(
How's things with you? Any less NWs?
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Hey lovely,
Look if you are worried beautiful, take him to the doctor for a check up. Make sure those ears are clear and that his throat isn't inflamed , no underlying chest issues etc. Just explain that he has been off colour for a while now and you just want him checked out!!
In my experience with a refluxy bub, the teething is really really really really hard and long winded. I was saying to DH for over a month that he MUST be teething when his front teeth were coming, either that of I was turning into an insane, grumpy b**...thanfully it turned out to be teeth LOL!! (and sometimes I am an insane grumpy b**)
If you haven't seen any coming, have a good look for the bottom ones, they always surprise me, although I know he is teething, I rarely see them coming (the little ones at the front) and they seem to give him hell for some reason!
Last night I was up with Dyllan three or four times, really can't remember. Seriously I think in the last monthe we may have had two almost sleep throughs....it's frustrating because I know that if nothing was wrong he would sleep just fine, he settles well and wants to be asleep, just can't. Same for naps really, they are always too short. We are going through the 2 to 1, but it's so hard because if he refluxes at all he wakes at an hour or so and can't sleep longer, poor little darling!! I thought he would sleep well last night 'cause he had a couple of hours sleep all together (1.4 and about 20 mins in car later on) and he settled down happily chatting to his toys, but no....I never can tell!!
I'm sorry you are so so hot, and hope Oliver feels better soon (and you get some relief soon). Seriously sweetie, this is not your fault or anything you can control so don't get too disheartened that things aren't working how they are "supposed to"....you are doing a great job with a difficult medical condition and your little man is just gorgeous :)
Huge Hugs
Lizzie
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Thanks Lizzie for your kind words, you are really helping me get through this. I've looked and looked every day for these "teeth" but still none!! Silly thing is his first bottom teeth came through and I didn't even know!! His top four teeth more hassle - but four at once not much fun - then the 7th one (bottom) was a nightmare and the 8th one just seems to be nowhere!!!
I'm going to take him to the docs next week.
The reflux thing is definitely up every hour thing for us too. When he's poorly he is up every hour at night - I guess reflux is much worse when poorly too.
Where are you on the whole teeth front at the mo?
It's cooled down a little and he did sleep a bit better yesterday so fingers crossed for tonight - and for you too.
Lots of love
Laura
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Hey Laura,
Our little guy has just cut his 10th tooth and the second molar is still cutting through, the point is through but the rest is still coming. I was going to give him some panadol last night when he woke the first time, but he was only up twice last night (ONLY) so I didn't. Think I will try it tonight though to see if teeth are his main issue...he was refluxing a bit last night, but mainly tossing and turning..
So glad it has cooled down a bit more and Oliver had a better night!! here's hoping it continues for you!! Glad you are going to get him checked out sweetie, it's always good to be sure that your LOs are ok!!
Big hugs to you sweetie
xx Lizzie
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Hi Lizzie,
Oliver I thought wasn't too bad last night although I'm actually not sure how well he slept as he looks knackered this morning but I understand teething can make them tired too??
How long has Dyllan been cutting teeth now do you reckon? Has he got 10 teeth including molars or excluding molars?
Also how's your transition to one nap going? I've given up at the mo as Oliver's bad nights just muck one nap up too much. I've currently got him on 45mins ish in the morn and however long he likes in th pm which usually is never more than 1.25hrs! He's been really odd and clingy and grumpy today, can't settle to anything. Took him a while to settle for his nap and he's been tossing and turning for that too! Oh well!
Glad Dyllan woke a little less for you, maybe he'll start improving too!
Do you work as well?
L xx
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Hey there sweetie,
Dyllan has ten teeth including two molars which he has cut in the last month or so...poor little sausage. One is all the way through now the other one still coming (though I felt the two points today so it's getting there). Last night I was up with him 4 times...ugghhh...ah well, not feeling too tired today so it's all good!! Getting up to him at the beginning of the day is the hardest for me 'cause I just want to keep sleeping...it was really cold this morning too which didn't help, but a lovely sunny day now!!
We have days with the one nap. If he doesn't have a great one in the morning I'll try for an earlyish pm nap (say about 3pm) and not let him sleep past 4pm 'cause that seems to muck up his night settling...some days he does on one nap, others he has to have two or a good am nap and a catnap...I'm just going with the flow and seeing what I think day to day at the moment :) He is tired too because of all the night wakings so the timings are all a bit off!!!
If Oliver is really grumpy and clingy I would say he isn't feeling well, chuck some teething gel on and see if it helps :) Dyllan is a bit crabby today too, not surprised considering the nights we have had!!
As to the working question, yes I went back part time the day after Ds 1st birthday (which was hard) I only work 21 hours a week (2 long days) though so it's pretty good. My DH looks after Dyllan one day, which has been great for them both and my MIL looks after him the other day. Dyllan adores his nanny, so we are all really happy with the situation I think :) I don't love being away from him, but I don't mind working and it does mean I get to chat to people and it is helping financially....it is what it is I guess!! :) even if I am a zombie at work most of the time at the moment LOL...
Hope everything is getting better for you both,
Huge hugs lovely
Lizzie
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Did Dyllan used to be a good sleeper before teeth?? This is what I find so frustrating really I guess, Oliver has always been a bad napper but good at night and this is so out of character, but weeks and weeks later we're still on the same battle with not even a hint of any teeth!!! I'm concluding if he was poorly we would've ended up in hopsital by now given his medical condition although planning to take him to doc on my day off. I had his ears etc checked about a month ago when this had been going on a few weeks and she couldn't see anything. If he had an infection he'd be really poorly by now.
Thing is most days he's not too grumpy atall, just the nights are awful. Meds don't necessarily seem to do the trick all the time either. Last night he woke screaming.... :(
I just can't see a light at the end of this very long tunnel...if I knew it was going to be another 6weeks I'd pysch myself up for it ;)
21 hrs in two days - that's 2 very long days...
I'm a teacher so work four days although the holidays equal it out to about 2.5days a week!
Hope you had a good night.
L xx
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Hey sweetie,
I think I should get my DH to look at your thread, he never believes me when I tell him just what an effect teeth can have!!!!
Ah sweetie, I'm there with you. We had a horrific night last night. Our LO had massive reflux, arching and literally screaming the house down. He bit DH on the face, he was in that much pain....My DH got really really upset and worried that there is something really wrong with him and got all upset because he thinks our Paed isn't doing enough....
It is really hard on Shaun seeing Dyllan like that. I think 'cause I have dealt with it more, I know we will get through it...also because I'm off dairy and soy it feels like I'm doing something to help, where as Shaun feels like we aren't doing enough and it's not working anyway!! (he may be right)
Every time Shaun brings up the "maybe there is something really wrong" comment I just say that we wouldn't have a happy smiling baby during the day if there was something really seriously wrong....but I do want some tests done all the same. Paed is going to ring us on Thursday night, so fingers crossed I will be strong and get our message across...our doc does believe us that things aren't right so I hope he will have some more ideas of where to go..
I'm the same as you, if the doc could tell us that we have another month to go and then he will be fine, we would totally be fine, it's the not knowing and not knowing how to fix it that is really getting us down at the moment!!! I'm sending you big sympathy hugs lovely.
Oh btw holidays don't mean that you are working 2.5 days a week, you are doing 4 DAYS, that is HUGE....I don't know how you cope, you are completely amazing xxx
Big hugs to you and Oliver, and a few more in store for those night wakings, I'm here for you
xx Lizzie
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All I would say is if you think things are not right MAKE someone listen to you and ask for 2nd opinion if you aren't happy. I fought for best part of 6mths to get somone to take me seriously and then they found his condition a little by accident but if they'd just done a blood test early on we could've saved him months of pain and discomfort.
We had another hour of tossing an turning at 12.20am I think him learning to walk is having an effect too. I just long for a few nights of uninterrupted sleep - I'm not greedy, just a couple would be nice!!
Are you still breastfeeding then?
How's your day been? Things are quite tough for me at the mo cos my work are quite unsupportive too which doesn't help.
Huge hugs to you and I really hope that Dyllan perks up soon and doesn't you give you anymore NWs like the last one. Your poor DH, being bitten must've been really hard.
XXXX
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Hey Laura,
I'm sorry that your work aren't good about your LO, seems strange that they aren't....mine are fantastic really, which makes life much easier. Flexible about what hours I turn up etc (as long as I do the hours I'm supposed to) but also my job doesn't really impact on anyone else, so that is great :)
Well the doc called today and he said he is going to book Dyllan in for a pH probe at the hospital early next week, he really does listen, we are very lucky!! I said to him that we hadn't seen any improvement yet and that we had a terrible night 2 nights ago, also told him that I am up with him on average about 4 times a night these days and he was sympathetic (which was nice)....Last night he slept through till 5:15am which was brilliant....when he woke crying he was sort of jerking around (which he does sometimes with or without the reflux noise) so it didn't take too long to settle him.
Today is one of my work days so he was with my MIL, but apparently he was really good (the sleep would have helped I recon) - he loves his nanny!! He has settled down quickly but had a bit of a chuck before, so we will see...it's usually not a good sign!
Hey I hope that you have a good day and night too...I really feel for you sweetie, you must be so exhausted with all the working and the night wakings...
Huge Hugs to you
xx Lizzie
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We had a really bad night last night - this tossing and turning and being generally unsettled went on from 12.30am pretty much until he started crying at 6.15am when we got up. He had meds before bed and in the night. I took him to the doc and he has a very red ear - not a full blown infection - she didn't know whether this is the start of a proper infection or whether it's viral or whether Oliver has managed to keep on top of it but not get rid of it - cos of his condition. He has oral antibiotics so we'll see what happens over the next day or so. These times are the most stressful as if he spikes a temperature it'll be up the hospital.
He also wouldn't settle for his nap this afternoon, took him half an hour or trying to get comfortable, after 20mins I gave him meds although we actually have to be careful giving medication as it can mask the fact he has a temperature.
I'm pleased your paed is so good. Oliver had a pH probe - it's not very nice - he also had a barium swallow. Whe is it? are they letting you go home with it or do you have to stay in overnight with him (that's what we did). They said Oliver's reflux is mild but to be fair he's only consumed about half his daily intake of milk and threw up rather a lot of that when they put the probe in. He slept well as well - unfortunately!!! Their reflux is always better when you actually want it to be bad!
Hope work has been ok today. My bosses are just work orientated and if you don't share their obsession with it then you're frowned upon! Just 7.5 days till summer hols though!
{{{{HUGS}}}}
L xxx
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Sweetie,
I'm so so sorry that things are so hard on you all at the moment. Sounds like the ear infection is causing you issues, I wouldn't expect teeth to keep him tossing and turning all night, poor little man!!! I would just be devastated having to head to the hospital each time, you must be constantly on edge....
Not sure when the pH probe will be, our doc said that he would book him in early next week....funny isn't it the last two nights haven't been too bad, Dyllan must know that he is going to have tests!!! I know it sounds dreadful, but I just want some answers, if it is mild then something else is going on that needs to be found and if it is more severe then we need to try some more meds or some more diet restrictions or something....
I don't know yet how they will go about the testing (hospital or home) as our Paed didn't really explain anything, he said he would call me back once he has booked it, so i'll ask lots of questions then...Also I was in the middle of first aid training so I didn't have long to ask him questions. I actually apologised to the paed for the diet not working, how strange is that, I am STILL blaming myself for Dyllan not being right!!! Crazy.
Better go sweetie, I'm sorry that things are not great still....I am here if you need to vent, need cyber {{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}, or a cry
BIG BIG HUGS
xx Lizzie
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Hi Lizzie, good to be back in touch. What happened with Dyllan's probe? Are you any further forward with the whole reflux issue?
Since Oliver's ear infection he's had 2 bouts of tonsillitis, and also something else going on with him which they said was probably another viral ear infection - they managed to clot his blood sample after we'd spent the whole day up at the hospital! I've videod him sleeping and compared it with a friend of mine's LO. Oliver turns over on average once every 2 mins and then has these long spells which have been up to 3 hrs constantly tossing and turning. He's also started to do a spell at the beginning of the night and the middle of the night. He's shattered and now not going down for naps - I have no idea whether this is due to OT or something else. I now wonder about sleep apnea, I came across it by chance and it can be caused by enlarged tonsils which the last doc he saw commented he had large tonsils although not the biggest she's seen.
TBH I'm just really fed up of going back to the doc and the hospital to keep telling them something's not right IYSWIM? He has however finally got that 8th tooth!
Why do you think Dyllans sleep has gone bad now? How are his teeth coming along?
Gotta go Oliver waking....again!!
L xxxx
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Wow, that tossing and turning tells me something is DEFINITELY wrong! Sleep apnea is an interesting idea. A friend of mine had a son who was a poor sleeper as well. He got dx with sleep apnea and had a surgery at 2 years old, which totally fixed the problem. you mgiht want to see a different physician, or get a referral to an ENT for further investigation. But i think your instincts are spot on!
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I just wanted to say that your very first post sounded just like my lo around 1 year of age. She also had reflux and was/is an excellent night sleeper and bad napper. She had the exact same trouble transitioning to one nap, she would be up for about 1.5-2 hrs a few nights a week. It stunk too cause she wanted one of us with her. She also did thos elovely 1 hr 20 min naps, I can't understand how so many babies do that length. I wish that I could give you a magic bullet but she never really did get better about the naps, the NW melted away by 15 mths and we also used wi/wo to help get her to stop. She took 1 hr 20 min naps till around 20 mths when they got a little longer, 1.5 and sometimes even 2 hrs. Now at 28 mths she is back to an hour or 1 hr 15 min and still does a very long night. I have found that most babies who sleep such long nights seem to have this pattern and the ones who take the nice 2-3 hr naps only sleep around 10 hrs at night. I have struggled with it her whole life and even now it is hard to deal with cause I need that long break during the day (I work at home part-time). The only other thing I did that may have helped lengthen a bit is to leave her in her crib when she wakes. This started out as maybe 5- 10 min so she wouldn't get upset and now she will stay in there for a good 45-60 min after waking from her nap. So maybe try some wi/wo if that would help at night and try leaving him in the crib a bit when he wakes so he doesn't think its time to get up then. I have always wondered how much the reflux plays into this but I guess there is no way to know. I hope this helsp you, I just saw so much of my own child in your post!
Aileen
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Hey lovely ones!!
Laura I am so glad that this web site is back, but really sorry to hear that you have been going through hell still! We have also had a rough time (but no where near as bad as you so I shouldn't complain!!). Dyllan has cut a molar and an eye tooth in two days the poor little one, and he still isn't right! The night wakings continue (but better I'm usually only up twice not 4+ times) and the naps are going haywire as well...it's hard because I think a little bit of it is that he is getting some attitude in there too, but I think mostly it's discomfort.
We never heard from the hospital about the pH probe, so I called our paed and apparently all the beds in this section have been designated to swine flu....I do understand, but a phone call would have been nice! We have booked into a private GI specialist, but it takes a month to get in for the consultation so we are still waiting. September 1st. I hope to goodness we don't turn up there and he tells us we are crazy and that there is nothing wrong with our little man!!! I just want to be sure that it's not something anatomical causing reflux/wind etc...I just need to know he is going to get better and that we are treating him appropriately and truly doing all that we can to help him.
It's so hard 'cause he is honestly so well, during the day he is gorgeous and smiley (mostly) and wonderful, the naps are crap and the nights are worse....ahh well!
I would definitely try and get a referral to an ENT, that's a good idea. If they suspect sleep apnea then they can test for it! Sending you strong vibes to stick to your guns, you KNEW something was wrong last time and you obviously are having that feeling again, so be strong.....
Big hugs lovely,
I'm here
xxLizzie
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Hi
Aileen - a couple of questions....did the NWs go on for months because I'm not joking this has been probably best part of 4mths, also Oliver doesn't want me in the night he's just turning over and over trying to get back to sleep, there have been the odd times when he has got so frustrated he has woken and then I've gone in given a quick cuddle and then the tossing and turning starts again. Also this is every night. If he was ready for the one nap he wouldn't be exhausted by say 10am in the morning do you think?? Thanks for the info though, it's nice to know that it may just be "one of those crazy baby things"!
Becky - what made your friend think her son had apnea? Did he snore?
Lizzie I can't believe they didn't let you know about the ph probe not being done - that's awful. At the hosp where Oliver goes (alot!!) they just have one ward allocated to swine flu but I guess maybe that has meant non urgent procedures are on hold. Has Dyllan had any good nights recently? I think you should trust your instincts. I had to fight for 5mths and demand a second opinion with Oliver and if I hadn't who knows where we'd be :( I was told by the first paed I saw that I just had a stressed baby (I have a post on here somewhere a long time ago about that!) I wasn't sure at the time how a baby could be stressed if it didn't have something to be stressed about!
Thanks for the support girlies
Laura xxx
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Sorry got to post again as I'm literally at my wits end now!! So at 10.45am this morning he was knackered so I put him to bed - success straight down with no fuss. However he only slept an hr so woke around 11.45, he has no point blank refused to sleep at all this afternoon, I even went for a long drive just in case that'd work (it doesn't usually but I figured worth a try). But nothing, just crying and pointing at the door. What am I to do if I can't get anymore sleep into him? If the NWs are part of being OT too then I need to get some more sleep into him but nothing nothing nothing is working!! Feeling stressed - again - after actually feeling a little more positive this morning! Sorry to rant but needed to!!
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I'm so sorry, I remember that being a tough time. Ours did go on for months and months, it started around 10 mths of age and went to maybe 14 or 15 mths. It was not every night but at least 3-4 nights a week. She was also exhausted in the morning and could not handle very much A time, certainly not enough to make it to one nap. She was still taking 2 naps for part of that time but the second was only 30 min and I think she only went down cause I nursed her to sleep. So she was very tired for a long time. I have a journal from that time period and when she was switching, she was napping around 10:30 or 11 am for 1 hr 20 min and then bed at 6:30 or 7. She was always able to handle more A time in the afternoon than the morning, then her morning A time was around 3.5 hrs. Any longer and I would get a 30 min, OT nap out of her. I still tried many afternoons for a second nap and sometimes it happened but other times it didn't. Even now at 28 mths, she can't make it much past 5.5-6 hrs A time and I know some kids stay up much longer. She literally loses it. I hope this helps you some, it may just take time.
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Thanks that does help! Did she cry at night or just restless? I have spoken to the health visitor today who wants to speak to a specialist sleep nurse to see what she thinks. Although I'd love it just to be one of those things I have a niggling feeling....
Did she just suddenly stop doing 2 naps and start sleeping better? Thanks for the info!
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She would cry at night and she wanted one of us in there to rock her but it never did much. It seemed almost like there was an amount of time that had to pass before she could get back to sleep, usually 1.5-2 hrs. We tried everything, pain reliever, feeding her (even though she hadn't eaten at night since she was 4 mths), nothing helped at all. She did not suddenly switch to one nap, it was over the course of about 2 mths. Some days she would take a 2nd nap, some days not. It depended on when she woke up, if she woke later then she could stay up long enough to just have one nap. After a while she just would never take a 2nd one unless we happened to be in the car so I just stopped trying. By that point she had grown more into the longer A time, though she was stuck at 4 hrs A time forever it seems. I think it was just a matter of her growing and changing but it sure stunk at the time! I really hope nothing is wrong with him, I doubt there is but it is good to get everything checked.
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Hi, DS doesn't cry at night - he often isn't really awake - just can't get comfortable or very restless and then after an hr or more of this chronic tossing and turning he may get so annoyed that he wakes and "calls" then it's usually a quick cuddle and back to bed at which point the tossing and turning continues.....
Fortunately over the weekend he did have some more normal naps which has certainly helped with the OT, however, it made no difference to the night antics. Now we are generally having 2 episodes of the restlessness... :( Poor thing. I'm at the point where I sleep through quite a lot of it as there is nothing I can do to actually help.
Hopefully the health visitor will call tomorrow (tues) having spoken with someone at the hospital.
He has vomited 3 times in the last 2 days and I did wonder if the reflux was an issue - the dr said though she couldn't increase his relfux med anymore.... and he's been discharged from reflux clinic at the hospital.
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Why have they discharged him from reflux clinic??? His reflux isn't over?? Have they suggested any tests to determine if the reflux is flaring or if it's something else??
Hugs to you hun
xxLizzie
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They discharged him because he only had "mild reflux" and seemed a lot better on the new med. I think they thought he had practically grown out of it. I'm not sure he has mild reflux as the day the tested he'd had barely anything to eat and what he did eat he threw up when they put the probe in! Then because he'd not eaten much he was knackered and slept really well - probably cos he had no milk in his tummy to cause any reflux episodes - he is also a tummy sleeper and has been since he was little and obviously this helps with reflux! However if they hadn't investigated his reflux they wouldn't know about his other condition - so am grateful for that!
Are there tests they can do (other than another probe - which I'm sure they wouldn't) to see if the reflux is worse? He had a barium swallow too which showed the reflux immediately - I think this was probably more helpful given he was actually having something to drink IYSWIM?
Anyway, I'm back to nap refusal so hopefully not another OT cycle!!
Hope everyone else is well.
Laura xxx
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Hey sweetie,
One other thing they will do is a scope to check that everything down there is right, but it's one of the last options I think because they have to put them under to do it....I don't know if this is what Dyllan will have, possibly since we are wondering if the reflux is actually a symptom of something anatomical rather than the cause in itself.
I always have that fear that they are going to have a look and think I am the one with the problem....the last few days Dyllan has slept through with only a few crying sessions in which he was able to re-settle (amazing), but having said that we are still unable to get more than about an hours sleep out of him. My mum looked after him the other day (she has been away since before he was born so hasn't had a lot of baby sitting duties till now) and she definiately thinks that there is something going on, could hear him making his weird throat noise etc, had to burp him for ages (he is 17 months now and I'm getting rsi from burping him - only a slight exaggeration!!!) etc. It's nice to have someone say, yes there is absolutely something that needs checking out :) I love my mum!!!!
I hope that Oliver isn't too OT today sweetie, I am thinking of you and sending hugs and donuts!!! Also want to encourage you to pester your paediatrician until they get some more answers for you
xxLizzie
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Just curious, what meds does he take and how much? We had my daughter up to a really high dose, 3/4 tablet of Prevacid solutab, twice daily and she still had some break thru pain. We weren't able to get her off the meds till after age 2 and still avoid too much tomato stuff.
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Hi, he's on 20mg of omeprazole (Losec) once a day. Yesterday was quite a good day but today haywire again. It's all very odd! We avoid too much tomato and anything remotely acidic where poss which is really difficult on a dairy free diet too!
I'm not sure what's happening at night so much at the mo as I'm so knackered I sleep through - unless he cries or whinges obviously!
Lizzie, strangely enough a few people who saw Oliver as a baby who either had children of their own or were in the medical profession said "something is not right with this baby" to me too. My mum was very helpful to me too. Go with your instinct (yes I know I'm a fine one to talk) but you do know your own child even though they haven't been around for very long!!
Huge hugs, thanks for all the support
Laura xxx
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That is a pretty low dose isn't it, but then they did say that his reflux was "mild" didn't they....we are also on a pretty low dose from what I can tell, but any time I ask the paed he says that the dosage should be fine and tbh he did increase it a bit and we didn't really see any improvement.
When Dyllan was little he wouldn't bend in the middle, wouldn't snuggle into you like other babies. The child health nurse picked it up and sent us to the doctor, and mum also commented on it at the time too...they were worried he had some type of hyperextension, but it was the reflux...
you live and learn don't you :)
Thanks to you too lovely, it's really nice chatting :) I will have tea or coffee, depends if I'm about to breastfeed, usually decafe tea these days...
xxLizzie
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That is the same med as prilosec here in the US. My husband takes it and he takes 20 mg so I think the dose is probably reasonable. Couple of things tho, our ped GI said that babies metabolize the medicine much faster than an adult and do often need the adult dose or higher. He also said that some people do well with Prilosec and some do well with prevacid (lansoprazole). I think they tend to give babies in the US the prevacid cause the solutabs dissolve, making the dosing easier. He also told us that due to the faster metabolizing thing, it is best with babies to split the dose whereas an adult can take it just once daily. We really got no relief with her sleeping till we got the higher dose, it was quite noticeable within a week or so. That being said, she was on the higher dose when she would do the long NW so I almost think its some sort of behavioral thing related to switching to one nap, just my opinion tho.
Aileen
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Well the health visitor called and the sleep clinic at the hospital want to see him. They say that what he is doing isn't normal and that they want to get him checked and referred properly. However, there is a 12 - 18 wk wait!!!
So if it is a one nap transition thing then I guess it'll all be sorted and we won't have to do it, if not then I'm pleased someone has listened to me!
My GP wouldn't increase Oliver's med. I've tried in split doses before and made no difference, the doc said it should all be in the morning but I'm seeing his paed on fri so I'll mention it then and see what he says. I'm doing one nap now and seeing what happens although so far not great.... :(
Hope you girls are well
Big hugs
L xxx
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HEY I FOUND YOU! I was just doing some reading of your post. PLEASE forgive me if someone has already said this...but MY LO had reflux pretty bad for a while. We put two really sturdy text books under each leg of her crib on one side and it was like a miracle happened. We did the same when she had a really stuffy nose at one point. Just a thought...again sorry if someone already suggested this.
How is it going by the way??? My daughter tossed and turned like crazy when she had reflux. It was really bad for everyone.
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He's got books!!! He also is predominantly a tummy sleeper - has been since he was tiny. We're seeing his paed (for his blood condition) on Fri so will see what he says. I'm certainly happy to try something if they think it is reflux related. He does seem to be doing more wet burps and has been a little sick, HOWEVER, this has been going on months and he has had an increase in meds during that time... :( Jessica, ANY suggestions are definitely most welcome - I'm desperate!
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Argh. All I can say is that we had a similar situation. It was three months of 5-6 night wakings... it looked something like this...
cold
separation anxiety
teeth
cold
growth spurt
teeth
more separation anxiety
it was rediculous. have you ever hear of the book "the wonder weeks." It is pretty interesting. Look it up - even if it doesn't get you more sleep - it may make you feel better.
keep us posted on what the doc says.
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Hey beautiful,
Glad you're heading back to the doc soon, you must keep us updated as to what he says!!!!
Big big big huge hugs
xxLizzie
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Hi, any thoughts much appreciated.....after deciding to stick to trying just one nap, Sat he slept an hour and during the night was awake for 2hrs, Sun we were at ILs and so he had a 20min nap on way there and 35mins on way back which was around 4 so wouldn't settle to sleep for 45mins, however appeared to sleep till 6.15. Yesterday I decided to go for one nap again and it was 45mins and we had 2 hrs up again in the night. :'( TBH I am literally losing it now. I don't see the point in trying to spend all day every day trying to get him to nap but he's clearly OT so what do I do? This morning he was practicall falling asleep over breakfast so I thought I'd put him down 15 mins later he just wanted to get up again I can't win :(
I'm really fed up with having a cranky baby who clearly needs to sleep but won't.
Thanks for the support girls, not sure how much use paed will be on Fri as it's mainly to discuss his blood condition and he often doesn't have a lot of time :(
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Sweetie,
MAKE HIM GIVE YOU TIME - that is what you pay them for, seriously!!! Something is NOT RIGHT and you NEED their help. Go in there and tell the paediatrician what you have just told us, tell him that your baby is beyond tired and you are not coping anymore......I'm serious lovely! Your paediatricians job is to manage Olivers health, to intervene when it is required and to support you in your job caring for your lovely little man....Do not leave there without help! You are Olivers voice right now, so voice your concerns and get your paed to have a think about what might be going on!!!
In the mean time sweetie, we are all here for you. I am SO so sorry that things are so hard at the moment. I would seriously consider going for a drive just to give your LO a sleep. I find (and I know that O won't usually take a pacifier) that if I put one in Dyllans mouth when he is asleep in the car, that I can transfer him to bed and he will stay asleep....perhaps you could try a trick like that to extend his sleeps. Also there is a great bed on the market, a hammock type thing which is supposed to be brilliant for reflux babies as they are really supportive....sometimes you can hire them rather than buying them, perhaps your clinic nurse will have heard of them? I didn't get one because Dyllan was getting quite old and mobile, but it still may be worth a try as they are low to the ground so Oliver should be safe if you put a mattress underneath it and keep an eye on him. Apparently their movement will kind of rock them back to sleep.....
If it is any consolation too, Dyllan is a cranky pants at the moment as he has STILL got the cold and is always tired and chucking it at me. The other night I got home from work and my mum went to hand him over so I could put him to bed and he cracked it at me, wanted to go back to mum....it's moments like those that make you feel like a GREAT mum!!!LOL.
hugs hugs hugs, hot fatty food, coffee and more hugs to you my dear friend
xx Lizzie
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Hi hon. How is it going? It sounds like the car puts him to sleep right? Just to get him some what back on track and not SO OT...could you take him in the car for two naps during the day? Just so you are dealing with a much less OT baby?
Just a thought.... what do you think?
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I agree, any APOP is good when you are dealing with such a tired little one!!!
How are you going Laura?
xxLizzie
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Hi sorry it's been a while went back to work yesterday just to top it all off!
Jessica, he'll only go to sleep in the car if he's really really tired, otherwise we end up driving for an hour or more just to get him to go off! I have been trying!
The paed appointment today was next to pointless. There's no change with regard to Oliver's blood condition so all the same things apply - hospital when he's ill basically. I spoke about the sleep and to cut a very long story short he implied it was behavioural to get attention and to let Oliver cry and NOT to go to him if he just is unsettled. I told him this has been going on months and I haven't been going in to him anyway and he hasn't been crying but he basically dismissed the whole thing - I felt like punching him!! However, the health visitor has just called and basically said the sleep clinic people are interested in seeing him and that the general pediatricians are not sleep specialists and to ignore it!
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Sorry got interrupted....
I've told the sleep people that I'll take any cancellation even a few hours notice so hopefully something will come up soon. They do the first tests at home anyway so that's a bonus.
Paed also said Oliver was on the highest amount of omeprazole and he didn't think it sounded like reflux otherwise he's probably be screaming (I guess a little like Dyllan). So that looks like a no go either!
I'm really quite struggling at the moment with the constant clinginess and whinging! I don't know what else to try with the naps , my mum has been really good at the whole put down thing till he goes off but I hate the battle TBH. Having just one nap at 11 isn't working, I think I'm going to bite the bullet and push it back (I know I should be trying to get him down earlier and then another nap but he's just refusing) I figured if he was only going to sleep 45mins better he does that at 12 say than 11? I just feel things are at an all time low anyway, I'll keep offering an earlier nap but it hasn't worked for ages now - I've gone back to work as well which probably isn't going to help either!
Sorry to go on and on and on!
Hope your well Lizzie - How's Dyllan doing at the mo? You got an appointment through yet?
Jessica I saw on your post things are not going well especially for you either? I know the only thing which help with naps for me last time was sticking rigidly to the same time, I just need to work out what that time should be!
Hugs for you all and doughnuts.....mmmmm!
Laura
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Hey Laura,
I'm so sorry to read your post, I was really hoping that your paed would realise that you know your LO....gosh I think you were very restrained not getting crabby with him! If it is any consolation when we had tried the Zantac and I went back to my GP telling her that Dyllan could be up for hours with wind and would scream for hours when I was trying to put him down she told me that she thought it was a "settling issue"...I was mortified and blamed myself for ages....
I hope that you get into the sleep clinic quickly :) I went to a sleep session just after the "Zantac incident" and basically they pushed modified controlled crying, but usefully they told me that there was no way I was going to sleep train a baby in pain...useful in one way, not so great in another! I didn't feel so embarrassed after they said that!
I am so so sorry that things are so bad for you at the moment. We are booked in for a scope and a pH probe for Dyllan on the 25th September. I'm in two minds, I want to know that he is ok that there is nothing really anatomically wrong, but I don't want to put him through it incase nothing shows up iykwim?
Dyllan is still recovering from his cold and is still really whingy and tired, had a rough night with him last night, went in about 4-5 times. Most of the time he was lying down crying, makes me think more gas than reflux last night (because he usually sits bolt upright for the reflux)...but who knows, all I know is my little man was crying out in pain, woke earlier than usual and we are all tired because of it!! I can't believe he has a cold nearly two weeks later, usually he gets over things so fast...guess it's being run down and teeth too!!
Anyway big big hugs to you lovely, in my experience going back to work didn't really change things much 'cause I knew my DH and my MIL would take wonderful care of DS. He loves his Daddy and Nanny days. As long as you know that Oliver is in good hands, he will be ok so don't feel guilty about going back....but big hugs to you too, it's hard when you know you are leaving a LO who isn't right in someone elses care
xxxxxxxLizzie
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Oliver took a 1.5hr nap today!!! I decided on Saturday enough was enough and when he inevitably woke at 45mins I did put down with him, we didn't have a lot of luck but I did it the second day after he woke after 30mins and 3 times of put down he went back to sleep for another 30mins - big progress, then today (day 3) he slept 1.5hrs, he did put up a bit of a fight to go down but after that! I don't want to get too excited but I was just so greatful that he at least had a good nap for once - just a shame I was at work and didn't benefit from it!!
Really hacked off with paed but hey we'll just have to wait and see what happens with the clinic.
Lizzie glad you have an appointment, I know it's hard putting Dyllan through it but you have to do something and if it's not the reflux then you need to find out what else is going on. The probe is ok once it's in but I have no idea about the scope.
Huge hugs to you too, hang in there.
Laura xxxxxx
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Thanks sweetie,
They are going to try and do the scope and the probe under general anaesthetic, normally they just put the probe in awake but because D has to go under anyway, they recon that this will be better...
I'm so glad that you got a good nap, did it help any with Olivers night time?
Big hugs sweetie
xxLizzie
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No No No it didn't help with the night!!!!! He spent 2hrs tossing and turning and then woke around 5.15am.... :( very disappointed! Oh well, I'm going to stick to the plan for the rest of the week and see what happens. He really looked like he had a canine tooth coming but it seems to have disappeared again!
Probably a good idea to do the whole lot under GA for Dyllan. Although a GA is horrible. Oliver was really really sick after his, but he was only 7mths old and had pnuemonia. The only thing I would say about a GA is however long they say Dyllan is going to be down for add another hour on to it! It always takes much longer in recovery than they say!
How's Dyllan been at night?
xxxxx
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Yesterday my mum stuck to the plan and he had a 2hr nap (she woke him after 2hrs worried he may not sleep at night if she left him!) However, he went to bed good as gold not a peep BUT was awake between 9pm and 11pm??? I can't win. He was very unsettled and then was really crying laying down though, it was if he had insomnia!
So we're sticking to the plan for the rest of the week and seeing what happens...I guess that's all I can do?
How's you Lizzie? Is Dyllan sleeping any better?
Big hugs, oh and white chocolate chip cookies....:)
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Hey beautiful,
Yeah I definately think you should just stick to the plan, if nothing else he is getting better sleeps during the day so that is a HUGE PLUS :) You really are doing great with a very difficult situation lovely, so please don't feel down about it!!!
As to the canine teeth, Dyllan has had his fully descended pretty much since his front teeth came through, round 12 months...they have just cut in the last month or so...they really are difficult teeth!!!
Dyllan is doing ok at the moment, usually have one session with him during the night where he needs me and several more times where he cries out for a while, but eventually re-settles (not as frantic crying as normal). Then we will have a couple of shockers, then ok again.....not sure! I think the periods of awake crying out are probably teeth related as he is cutting three at the moment, the rest is the normal stuff that he struggles with!!!
Today he fell off his plastic bike and split his lip open really badly, blood all through his mouth the poor little man....he has been so good about it though, not whingy or anything so I'm very proud of him!!!
Big hugs to you beautiful and some hmmmmm what shall we have today, ever tried Tim Tams?? Yummmmy.
xx Lizzie
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Tim tams...we obviously don't have them here in the uk describe them? We have something called yum yums...like long twisted doughnuts!
Glad Dyllan kinda doing ok. I agree that Oliver getting more sleep during the day is good, and last night was a bit better to, although I'm that shattered I tend to sleep through if he's restless, only wake if he cries or moans now. He keeps sitting up in his sleep as well which really isn't helping, I wonder what that's about. I know he's asleep because I can see him on the video monitor and he has his eyes shut but is sat up. All very odd, hoping he's not going to start sleepwalking next!
Big hugs
L xxxxx
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I am positive that Dyllan sits bolt upright because his tummy is hurting or he is refluxing, one or the other. Usually wind pain he rolls around crying and moaning, reflux makes him jump up even when he is still half asleep....the poor little things, it must be So horrible for them!! Listen sleeping through the restlessness is a good thing sweetie, don't feel bad, you NEED your rest to look after Oliver properly during the day, getting too tired only means that your patience is worn too thin...you are doing exactly what you need to do. You also need to give them a chance to resettle sometimes, so you're right :)
I doubt that Oliver will be a sleep walker sweetie, I just think there is more going on in that tummy than the paeds are picking up on!
Tim Tams are kind of like (I think they call them) penguin bars or something like that, sorry it's been a while since I was in the UK. However, Tim Tams are a million times more declicious.....chocky bikkies with yummy soft chocky filling smothered in chocolate, mmmmmm.....wonderful with coffee. You can do a Tim Tam Slam where you bite off opposite corners, suck your coffee through them then crunch, smoosh, eat it all up...the hot drink kind of melts the bikkie......Not particularly lady like, but oh yummy LOL (hmm I think I might be missing dairy a little).
Dyllan has to be admitted overnight for his pH probe which is happening next week, it feels so soon now (even though we have been waiting for forever). He has to go off his meds, so it will be interesting to see if they are doing anything (we wonder if they aren't these days) and whether he has true reflux or something else going on...I'm a bit worried tbh, but know it's important to do.
Anyway lovely I'd better go for now,
lots of love and hugs, get as much sleep as you can
xx Lizzie
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Oliver was in overnight for his probe too and had one of the best nights sleep he'd had in ages - typically. He also had to come off his meds and tbh it didn't seem to make a lot of difference, even though I'd taken him off them before and he was horrendous so who knows!
I've never tried that coffee trick with a penguin (tim tam!) before but definitely will do now!
Make sure you let me know when you're going in. How is dyllan sleeping with noise and light? Oliver is horrendous so I always take some flat sheets to put over the sides of the cot whenever we have a hospital stay. It stops him looking out into the room if he wakes briefly.
Huge hugs
L xxxx
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Ah thanks for the tip, was thinking about what to pack, geeze it will look like we are staying for a year I recon!!! We are going in Tuesday morning!
Just to reiterate, penguins are not NEARLY AS GOOD as Tim Tams.....just so you aren't disappointed. They are ok for Aussies who are craving a taste of home, but not the real deal!!!!
Big hugs Lovely
xxlizzie
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Hi, just a quick update really as I haven't had time to post for ages...
Oliver has pretty much transitioned to the one nap although his naps are NOT getting longer by the day! Most days we're getting an hour out of him and not sure how to increase this. He's now cutting molars which is throwing everything out anyway and maybe this has more to do with bad naps.
Nights are still a complete mess with the constant tossing and turning continuing... have to say I'm getting rather hacked off with it all now!
Lizzie, how's you and Dyllan - am I right in thinking the scope is this week? Did they say anything about the probe or are they going to speak with you properly after the scope?
Any thoughts or advice on our "mess" appreciated! Having an hour nap though is better than none....
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Hey Laura,
So sorry that you are STILL struggling. Honestly I know how you feel, hour naps are about all we get here too. Although yesterday after his scope he slept for 2.5 hours, I had to keep going in and checking on him to make sure he was ok....I really could have used the sleep myself but it's hard when you keep thinking, better go in to be sure!!!! :)
He had his scope yesterday and the GI talked to us briefly, although he hasn't fully reviewed the probe results he said Dyllan has "significant' reflux and a mildly palutous sphincter at the GO junction....so it's normal leaky reflux just going on for much longer than usual. He has upped Dyllan's meds a bit and will be sending a full report through to the paed in a couple of weeks, so I guess it's a maintenance thing :) So happy that he doesn't have anything more serious and SO GLAD I"M NOT CRAZY...well not in that respect anyway!
I'm pretty sure you have said that Oliver won't take a dummy/paci but I'm wondering if it would be worth trying to introduce for sleeping? Sometimes when I know that DS isn't going to even make it to an hour putting it into his mouth once he is asleep can work? May allow him to soothe through the rough spots a bit better?
One nap is better than none, but I know how you feel, it 'aint enough!!!
Lots of love and hugs, let me know what you think about the coffee and penguins :)
xx Lizzie
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I'm pleased for you - in as backward kinda way - I'm glad they have found what is wrong but obviously it's not nice for Dyllan, but you knew there was something wrong (just like I did) and stuck with it and you were proved right. I hope upping the meds will help, if you don't notice a difference though you must go back and push harder!
Oliver sucks his thumb so maybe a dummy wouldn't work?? I just wish he could be settled. I haven't heard anymore from the sleep clinic so will just have to keep waiting!
I know an hr nap is better than nothing and certainly better than what we were going through a few weeks ago but I just know he needs it as much as me at the moment! Nights are still very hit and miss.
Let me know how things are going. I'm finding it harder to post at the mo as I'm back at work and it's manic.. Looks loke I've gotta go Oliver at the 45min mark - that's even worse than an hr!!!!
Big hugs!
L xxxx
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Hey beautiful,
Dyllan has never really been a thumb sucker, but from what I have observed the dummy sort of gives them more of a mouthful and seems to soothe a bit more effectively.....I know it's a backwards thing to introduce so so late (and may not work at all from what you have said), but as much as I HATE using it, it has saved our sanity and provided relief for Dyllan when nothing else could! As we don't use it all the time, Dyllan doesn't seem to be addicted to it and he can replace it himself (except when he hurls it across the room LOL) so hopefully when the pain is gone they can go too!!!
Tbh I don't know what else they would try if this increase in meds doesn't work. From what the GI specialist said this dosage should cause almost complete acid suppression. We are still really struggling with settling him down although the last two nights have been good...We have another paed appointment in a month (the soonest I could get D in) so I guess we will have some more answers by then, think I may call in a couple of weeks to see if the results are in regardless of when our appt is though :) (pushy mum)....
So sorry work is so busy, thinking of you lovely and sending hugs and happy vibes
xxxLizzie
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Hi Hun, what meds is Dyllan on out of curiosity? The battle we have is they classed Oliver's reflux as mild although I really beg to differ. However the sleep clinic also has a reflux paed so I guess if they don;t find anything amiss with his breathing etc then they may consider revsiting the whole reflux thing!
I'd call if I were you... the hospital Oliver is under always say we'll phone you and never do!
Happy vibes and sleep vibes your way, I guess Dyllan may take a while to settle into actually being able to sleep again! I'll think on the dummy idea, thanks
Laura xxx
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Hey Laura,
He is on lansoprazole called Zoton...wish it was as snazzy as it's name sounds :)
Had a hideous time trying to settle him again today, actually had a really rotten crabby morning with him so I wonder if he is OT or getting sick. Had a late night last night and a very long day so hoping it's just OT. Had to give him the dummy but know he will be screaming again soon 'cause he kind of passed out with it (not a good sign)...
Ahh the fun! I had a mum last night come up to me and tell me what a wonderful job I was doing, oh if only she knew how bloody aweful I was at dealing with the screaming sessions....I just find it so hard that I can't seem to help him calm down even a little bit, poor darling!
I hope you get some help at your sleep clinic sweetie, when are you booked in? When we got the probe done I told the lady who puts them in he wasn't having a flare and she said that usually you get a lot more info from the scope for that reason...
big hugs to you lovely
xxLizzie
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I have to say I know how you feel! People always tell me how well I cope with Oliver etc but actually when he's constantly whining or crying I don't cope very well!
The sleep clinic was an 18week wait which makes it around christmas time although I haven't had any sort of confirmation so I left a message yesterday to chase it.
Oliver has now decided sleeping sitting up in his cot is something he wants to do in the middle of the night. Last night was just awful and I'm knackered today, not sure how I'm going to manage.
It does sound like Dyllan is OT I'm sure things will settle down when the meds kick in properly. Maybe I should push for a scope if I get nowhere fast....I just feel like he can't carry on the way he is.
Oh well, have you tried cadbury's twirls (not sure if you have them over there) with your method of sucking up coffee???
Hope you have a better day.
Laura xx
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Hmm no I haven't tried the twirl thing, mmmm sounds yummy though!!! We have cadburys over here, there is actually a factory down south which you can do tour through, get cheap chockies etc. One of my friends works there, funnily enough they get cheap chocolate and free gym membership - LOL (I would need it)..
I'm so sorry that things still aren't right, perhaps you should ask your paediatrician about a scope or something..this has just been going on for SO LONG now, I really can't imagine how you are coping at all (BIG BIG HUGSSSSSS).
Was up with Dyllan for about an hour and a half in total last night, he was asleep but then every now and then he would just throw his body out (presumably in pain, can't see why else he would do it)....I just let him sleep in my arms then eventually put him down ('cause I was getting pins and needles)...then my step daughter woke at 6 because she couldn't find a tissue. I love my DH though he let me sleep in FOR EVER which was so so wonderful! Even though I am still tired now I can see that I will manage to go to work tomorrow now :)
I hope things improve for you sweetie, but I like you wonder if there is more than meets the eye with this one, so keep pushing
xx stay strong, you are a great mummy
Lizzie
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Laura, Igor was awake 2 hours every nights from 1 year old until he was about 17 months, we tried everything, shorter naps, more activity during the day (which sometimes worked) and after a long time it started to be better, but he kept on waking up during those days I was working evening. Everything got solved when we got a place at a kindergarden and thus I could change my work schedule (no more week-ends). We never found out what it was all about, SP teething need of more activity...nevertheless it was awfull, and he slept in our room too, so that didn't help. Things will get better...I know you want it now, but it does get better. He actually woke up for 1 hours 2 times this week and that was because I let him sleep as much as he wanted during the day (usually he sleeps 1.5 hours at the kindergarden during the week and about 3 hours at home), we're on vacations so I decided to let him sleep as much as he wanted, well I quickly learned my lesson and I wake him up at 1:30pm...2 hours sleep.
Good luck!
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Lizzie - I'm not coping is the short answer! He was awake for 2.5hrs on Sat night and about 1.5hrs last night. What with working four days - I'm shattered! I just feel like I'm losing my mind. I he's probably just chronically OT but if I can'#t get him to nap more than an hour what can I do?
We have a cadbury world here in UK too, in Birmingham though so not somewhere I can pop to easily unfortunately!!
Sorry Dyllan was up alot, I really thought this med would be making a massive difference by now - when are you next seeing someone?
Massive hugs to you too.
Annegaelle - I know how you feel! I would say we've had this now for about 5.5mths - before he was a good sleeper unless he was poorly (which is quite alot, not sure if you read all the posts, he has an immune deficiency). It's very odd as he isn't screaming - which believe me I am greatful for! I only work days so it can't be cos I'm not there and it can happen any day any time! The health visitor suggested night terrors without screaming but I find it hard to believe they last hours? I long for 2hr naps....!
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I didn't get time to reqd qll the posts, sorry..just too much going on. I'm not specialist but I don't think it's night terrors, I personnaly think it's developmental. Igor was not crying ever, just after a while as I think he wanted to sleep but didn't seem to know how. I got a few suggestions: started to walk/ too active during the day=bad sleep at night and the homeopat saw him and said there was nothing wrong with him and that maybe we should start looking into our relationship as maybe this whole thing came from us (truly we were very very stressed so it might have been that). Anyway if you haven't done it yet, try alternative medicine, that might help! It works wonderfully well with small children as they have a very healthy livestyle, Good Luck!
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Oh Laura darling, hugs to you!!! I'm not surprised you aren't coping at the moment sweetie. Is there any way you can get some time off work? I know that will be hard, but you just sound so incredibly exhausted!!!! I know I couldn't be working four days a week these days, I am tired from 20 hours....
Well Dyllan has had a tummy bug for the last week, which as you know is not great with a refluxer....he came in with a rotten temperature last night too which I thought was strange as we thought he was on the mend. Had one this morning too but luckily has brightened up with some paracetamol. Poor little sausage.
The increased meds really don't seem to be making much difference (although over this last week it would be hard to tell) and we can't get back into our paediatrician until the 26th of this month. I am going to call tomorrow and see if our Doctor is there and if he will go through the results with me on the phone (I think he is off on holidays though). Since the probe we've gone back onto dairy and increased his meds and for a while I was worried that was causing the upset tummy, but I'm sure now that he has a bug...there are some horrible viruses going around at the moment here :(
Anyway sweetie, for what it's worth, I'm here. I'm listening and I wish wish wish I could help you....Sounds horrible but does your DH hear Oliver of a night? could you may be wear ear plugs for a couple of nights so you can get some rest and DH be "on call" so to speak????When things all get too much for me, my DH takes over (or at least tries as Dyllan always seems to want me when he is in pain)...even if it doesn't mean I get much more rest it's nice to know emotionally I have that support!!!
Love and hugs and more and more hugs
xxxLizzie
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DH gets really really bad migraines from broken sleep and so this makes things even more difficult... He did even before Oliver was here so it isn't just an excuse!
Well sunday he slept 1hr 45min nap and DH woke him after that time - yesterday was practically a carbon copy (day and night) and he only slept an hour! He's so unpredictable and then last night we had 1.5hrs of wide awake chatting at 11.30pm - how very very odd. I gave him paracetamol at 12.30am just to try and relax him a bit. It was as if he was just having a bit of fun in the night - I thought this meant he was UT but how can he be on about 10hrs sleep a night and an hr in the day? I just feel so confused and fed up at the mo.
Speak to someone about Dyllan, at least get your concerns noted even before you go back. How is his tummy bug now? Did he have a reaction to the MMR at all? Oliver has his on Fri, I've put it off as he hasn't been quite right but he needs to have it. He also has to have the flu and swine flu vaccine poor thing.
I can't get time off work - I had a lot of time off last term already :(
Hope you're all doing ok.
Big Hugs
Laura xxxx
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Hi Laura. I just wanted to let you know that I have had the same problem with both my children, and unfortunately still do! My DS has been the worse. He was really bad at the same age as your little one, awake for an hr or two sometimes longer nearly every night. It then went to about once a week when he was about 15 mths, but sometimes he would have a bad week and it would happen a few times. Now it happens about once a mth since he was about 18 mths. A few people on here have said it's to do with OT and I think it probably is as he does a lot of OT naps but he is an absolute nightmare to read with his tired signs and his nights are so different that I have never been able to have a fixed nap time! He has started STTN more over the last 6 weeks, but again it can range from 10-11.5 hrs but that is fantastic compared to being awake for extended periods. But I still have to be flexible with his nap time b/c otherwise he gets really OT and then I think the extended NWs start rearing their ugly head again. He has just turned 2.
My DD also did it off and on from about 9mths to 23 mths. Then it started up again when she started dropping her nap, I guess b/c she gets OT and needs a nap some days but refuses. She is 4 in Nov and she will sometimes have a good week and then a bad one where she has extended NWs a few times (last night was AWFUL with her). One thing I have noticed is that when she was younger the long NWs could be at anytime from 10pm - 5am, but since she was about 3 they tend to be in the last half of the night, never in the first half. And they are usually not longer than 60 mins now. So maybe by the time she is 6 she won't do it anymore!
I too went to a paediatrician and didn't get anywhere. I have rung various different sleep clinics too and not got proper answers. Most think it is behavioural but it definitely is not. Both my kids know now that they are supposed to be sleeping - DD just lays in her bed sucking her thumb but NOT sleeping. She doesn't appear to be any pain, and she would tell me if she was. She isn't talking, just laying quietly. She tellls me she tries to sleep but just can't :( The paed said they aren't autistic, and most docs say they will grow out of it, but WHEN!! One nurse said it could be overstimulation, which I think is most probable, linked with the OT. I also went to a naturopath who told me to cut out potatoes, dairy, tomatoes and wheat!! I did it for a couple of weeks, but no change, but think I may try it again for longer and see what happens. Another nurse said they have had babies in her sleep clinic that do this and they call them players, but mine are definitely not playing! They are TRYING to sleep! I would call it a type of childhood insomnia!
So you might find he gets better as he is able to stay awake for longer periods and not get so OT. I hope so and that something works out soon. I tried the short catnap for my DS when he was 12 mths too, but it never worked he just got sooooo OT. Sorry just realised how much I have waffled!!
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Thanks Tired56 - I guess!
The weird thing is this started when he was napping better than ever. I fixed nap times and the naps got longer and a bit like yours no real tired signs but was sleeping better in the day. We were having good naps when this started. The bad naps have been from the 2-1 transition, however the naps have over the last few days got a bit better again. Yesterday he had a 2hr nap and this is really unheard of for him but now we have EWs. I think OT may play a part but how can I get him out of this cycle if he can't sleep? It doesn't make sense.... :(
Did your docs ever suggest a sedative with yours? Mine suggested it but until the sleep clinic have assessed his oxygen levels they won't do anything like that. Were yours tested for apnea? This is a very common childhood problem and causes lots of restless sleep. I think there is childhood insomnia and I think it's often related to apnea - just a thought. Was there anything you did to help? I have been fixing his nap time to within about half an hour or so as this helped his naps before but I can't cope with 5am wake up now on top of everything else!
Catnaps just don't seem to work anymore. I mean I could try giving him one in the morning but then I have a big risk he may not then have a proper later nap! I feel like I can't win!
Thanks for posting and if you think of anything else please let me know. If you're concerned about your childrens sleep just keep pushing. I don't know how much of this thread you read but Oliver has a rare blood condition and was really quite poorly for a long time and I was just being passed off as neurotic for ages. I know it can't be right for him not to be able to sleep properly - especially given he STTN when he was 10 wks old! I agree that Oliver isn't a player either. He isn't trying to get attention or being difficult he's just trying to get to sleep and then after an hr or more he gets frustrated - not surprisingly. Most of his tossing and turning is done in his sleep though.
Hope you have a good day.
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Hi Laura. I've just looked through the rest of your thread and you and Oliver have certainly been through tough times. Well done you though for insisting that something was wrong! It has now given me renewed energy to try to look in to my LOs sleep problems. Your DS sounds like my DD - used to sleep through the night but bad naps, whereas my DS has just always been shocking with naps and nights! The difference with our LOs is also that mine don't really toss and turn much when they are asleep, they are just sometimes wide awake for their NWs. My DS will occassionally toss and turn for about an hour in his sleep about every 10-20mins but this is rare, I think. So I was wondering if there is something else wrong with your DS, like sleep apnea, that is causing the restless sleep and making him more OT, which then in turn leads to the horrible viscious OT cycle and the lengthy NWS. I had read about sleep apnea too, and apparently a sign of it can be a lot of coughing when they are asleep. Mine only do this rarely but I'm going to mention to my doctor in a couple of weeks at my DD's 4 yr check up.
My DS sounds very much like your in other ways though, like not being able to get a 2nd nap in. I found that being flexible with his nap time helped b/c it seemed like if he went down just 15 mins too late for his nap he would invariably do a short nap (anything from 40 - 85 mins and wake crying/very grumpy). So I had to be flexible to try to ensure a long nap (90-120mins) which he would usually wake happy from, as there was only one shot at it a day and if I got it wrong it usually meant a bad night! Sometimes this meant he would be waking from it pretty early as he would be up for the day from 5am on (we even had a few 4.30ams!). By 18 mths I gave up trying to get him having a 2nd nap in the cot on these days and would take him out in the pram instead where he would sometimes have a short catnap, and if he didn't it just seemed to help get him through the rest of the day a bit more. I have carried on doing that up until recently, but over the last couple of mths I didn't lay him down anymore as he never slept and he would just pull DD's hair (in the double pram) so he would just sit up and this just helped keep him calm as he loves going out in the pram. So I would recommend any low key activities towards the end of the day and then an early b/time.
Being flexible with his nap meant I wrote down all his sleep times and then looked back at them to work out when he should go for the nap according to his am wake up time and how much he slept the night before! So for eg. at 18 mths, if he was awake for 90 mins in the night and only slept 10 hrs total night sleep then he might only have am A time of 3.5hrs to be asleep at the 4 hr mark. Whereas if he slept through 11.5 hrs his A time would be 4.5 hrs to be asleep at 5hrs. Sounds crazy doesn't it!!! But it worked most of the time (not all of the time!). It didn't completely get rid of those horrible long NWs but I'm sure it helped reduce them, and he would still wake most nights but only for a few mins each time.
When DS is also OT he can take up to 60mins to sleep, sometimes longer, so sometimes if you have put your DS down for a sleep and you're sure he's tired, but he's just not sleeping, he could be like my DS and take aaaaaages to relax and get to sleep.
Also read that you are a teacher - so am I!! Sorry to read that they aren't v supportive, I hope they are by now. I haven't been back to work since just before DS was born, was planning to go back when he was one, but with the way he was sleeping that just didn't happen, so you are doing much better than being able to work as well!!
Hope things start getting better for you and DS v soon,
Katherine xx
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Hi Katherine, work are still not supportive but I unfortunately can't leave as we wouldn't be able to survive on just my DHs salary. I know exactly what you mean about if the nap isn't right the night isn't either so how come yesterday he did a 2hr nap and still had a shocking night??!!! Normally they are directly related but at the mo everything seems to pot!
Oliver doesn't cough an awful lot in his sleep but does yawn (yes when he's asleep - I've watched him do it) and does big heavy gasps. He also breathes through his mouth during the day - do either of yours do this? I would definitely push with your LOs sleep, I'm not sure how you have survived the last 4years on such little sleep.
Oliver has never been one to nap in the buggy - unfortunately and will only nap in car if he's really tired or we've been driving around for ages! I think this is kinda my fault really cos when he was small because he was such hard work I only ever made him sleep in his cot in his dark room else he wouldn't sleep atall. I was a bit of a hermit but my family will tell you that all Oliver did as a small baby was cry really! He was hard work (still is with the sleep) he is like a different boy now, the happy smiley baby I always thought was there. I mean even when he's ill everyone comments about how happy he is, it's amazing how they cope isn't it?
He goes to sleep pretty instantly unless he's UT and then will kick up to get out! He certainly knows what he does and doesn't want!
Let me know how you get on.
Xx Laura
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Hi
Katherine, how are you getting on? Have you thought anymore about speaking to someone about your LOs?
Things here are weird....So after getting 2hr naps and having Oliver play for 2hrs in the night and waking at the crack of dawn happy as larry...I decided we'd go for a shorter nap during the day. Now I started this on Sat - Sat night he slept through (first time in ages) Sun night we had 1.5hrs of up and down, tossing and turning a little bit of talking. Mon night - he slept through, but last night Tues he was back to his usual games - he spent 3hrs turning over trying to sleep. I was on off sleeping through it but after 2.5hrs I got up gave him some calpol and sat with him for about 10mins and then after another 15mins he was asleep only to wake at 5.30am. I told him it was too early and gave him another cuddle even though he was telling me he wanting to get up and fortunately he went back to sleep for a bit.
TBH I am tearing my hair out! It's like one step forward 10 steps back. I definitely think a slightly shorter nap has helped as when he's awake now he's not having a crib party like he was when he was having 2hr naps and also the EW has stopped ish (touch wood). BUT I just can't take much more of him desperately trying to get to sleep and not being able to. I don't understand it, sometimes he looks still asleep turing over constantly but after doing this for 45mins or more he wakes up and then just can't get back to sleep. I have tried giving him meds straight away but it really makes no difference. I'm worried about our sleep clinic appointment (when we finally have sometime in the next couple of months) that they'll say it's just behavioural and it's something I'm doing wrong. I have tried everything and I'm only resorting to sitting with him a while if he's been awake like 2hrs or more. I don't go to him if he's not crying but this can last hours....he can't continue to spend a couple of hours each night like this - oh and neither can I!!!
Laura Xx
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YOU AREN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG sweetie and don't go in there thinking that they will say that (if they do tell them to get stuffed)....you are doing everything right xxx
big big hugs
xxLizzie
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I feel a little like I'm going insane! If he's OT (which I guess is likely) how do I ever get him to catch up on sleep if he won't nap longer - even at different times (and when he has it's just eaten into his night sleep) - and if he continues to be awake for this long at night...
Any other thoughts, tips suggestions welcome!!
Thanks Lizzie for ALL your support.
Laura x
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Sweetie will he sleep in the car at all? Could you give him his one "good" nap a day then go for a well timed drive in the afternoon so he gets say a 15 minute cat nap...not enough to eat into his sleep too much (watch out it doesn't go past about 4:30pm, that's our cut off for Dyllan) but enough to freshen him up and hopefully allow him to gradually catch up?
My other suggestion is EXACTLY the opposite.....have you tried just taking him out, go and do something fun for yourself a couple of times a week and let him sleep in the pram when he can if he can and for the rest of it don't worry about it? It may contribute to OT, but it may just be good for you both...for you it's important to start living again, sleep deprived, yes, but ALIVE and for Oliver, look it's not going to harm him and perhaps the extra stimulation and interest will be of benefit....it really can't be much worse than what you have been going through....
just a thought, thank you for all your support too sweetheart, I really really appreciate your friendship too
xxLizzie
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We've tried and tried the car!!! Not a lot of luck! I have to say I'm just going out much more in the afternoon and if he only short naps then that's longer out and about IYSWIM?! The buggy has never been a goer for sleeping with him, he's too nosey!
Thanks for the suggestions though. I may try the car thing again...we'll just go further afield!
L xxxx
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Hey sweetie have you tried putting up quite a dark shade cloth over the buggy? I see a lot of mums do it and it tends to help their LOs settle down for a better nap??!! I know what you mean though, Dyllan doesn't sleep in it unless he is COMPLETELY exhausted!!
If it's any consolation, we seem to finally be getting longer naps out of him. I don't tend to put him down till 12:30 - 1pm now, which is really LONG A time, but he seems to be happy to do down and tends to sleep for a couple of hours...YAY!!! Hope it continues :)
Big hugs, you know I'm sending love and junk food and a cuppa
xxLizzie
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Ohh and the car thing too, Dyllan usually takes at least 20 minutes to fall asleep in the car, even if he is really tired.....he is getting better at it now (I think it may have been refluxy related), but it can still take ages when you think he will fall asleep quickly...strange xx
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I used to put a cloth over the buggy when he was small. Now he just screams and pulls it off - hee hee! I can get a longer nap from Oliver too if I put him down later, BUT then he's not tired enough at bed and was waking at 5am! I do believe he is OT but I need to find a balance I guess!
Xx
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How late were you putting him down sweetie, and how long was he napping for? What time was he waking up from his nap? We find if we let Dyllan go past 4:30pm he absolutely cracks it at bedtime (which is around 7:30pm) even though he is clearly tired...so there is no point in trying to get him down before 8pm...sadly going to bed later means he wakes earlier....so I know where you are coming from ::)
I think once they get past the worst of the transition it's probably easier to guage what time is good for nap time (generally)...I have basically found anywhere from about 11:30am works, but better that bit later, but MUST BE before 2pm or we get a massive cranky session (which is fair enough, most days he wakes at 6 or 7am so that is a LONG time to be awake for a little one)....These days I usually give him a light lunch, then say 15 minutes after his bottle and teeth brushing then story and down for the nap...seems to be working ok mostly.
Big hugs lovely
xxLizzie
P.S. I don't think in your case it's just about finding a balance, I still think there is more at play there....hugs to you, you are doing all you can.
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Just a quick one....
SLEEP CLINIC ON THURSDAY!!! Woohoo! Got cancellation, now just have to tell work I need some (more) time off... which won't go down well believe me!
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Yay that's fantastic sweetie. Don't worry if they don't like it, that's their problem :) Good luck at clinic, I'm really excited for you and hope that they are really helpful and listen to what you are saying!!!
Big hugs
xxLizzie
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Well - kinda wanted to bump this in case anyone else had any thoughts but last night we had world record.... 4 HOURS AWAKE! I'm at my wits end. We've now done 3weeks of not going in to him unless he cries, if it was behavioural would it not have stopped. I can't take anymore :'( :'(
I don't know what to do now.
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Sweetie that is terrible!!!! 4 hours.....ridiculous!!
Is hubby still going in to him rather than you?
Hugs my friend, I so hope someone looks over this who can actually be helpful (as opposed to me)...
lots of love
Lizzie
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Sweetie is it possible that Oliver has an intolerance which is causing him tummy pain? Have you retried gripe water or something like that? Sorry can't remember right now if he has intolerance issues...I'm just wondering if he has a really REALLY gassy tummy which is causing the tossing and turning?
xx more hugs
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Hi again Laura. Sorry to hear that you're still having trouble with DS, even after the sleep clinic. So I'm assuming that they said the lengthy NWs are behavioural? My DS still does it too and he is now 26 months!! I have had 4 hour NWs with him in the past, but v rare. I think they have only happened a few times and the last one was a few months ago. Mostly his NWs are 60-90 mins but he is getting better. Some weeks he doesn't do it at all and then other times he does it once or twice a week, but this is heaps better as he used to do it 3-4 times a week! I went to a paediatrician about it and she couldn't give me an answer as to why he does it and also said he is growing and developing fine so it isn't a problem, and he isn't autistic. My DD used to do it too, but I think she only ever did 4 hour NWs twice. She will still sometimes be awake for up to 60mins in the night and she has just turned 4 and I'm sure it's b/c she won't always have a nap and really needs to most days so she gets OT. But again this is better than she used to be as she used to be awake regularly at 18 mths for about 2 hrs. Then she suddenly started sleeping 2hr naps and 10hrs in the night regularly when she was 22 mths. But DS, I just CAN'T get him on a routine. I think his problem is mostly OT, but sometimes is teething or dreams. He overtires v easily and will invariably have a short nap b/c of this. Even if he has a long nap when he is a bit OT he will wake grumpy and then not always sleep well that night. It's as though his nap has to be exactly right or you've had it, and it's really difficult to get it right with him.
I have read that food intolerances can cause insomnia as they can produce histamine which can hinder sleep, so I might have another go at cutting out some foods again and see what happens. But apart from that, I have exhausted every other avenue. My LOs do not cry the whole time they are awake, they are not in discomfort and it is definitely not behavioural. I have rung various sleep clinics and they have either said they are playing and we should go in to them to tell them to sleep, but they still don't sleep, or they are still learning to STTN, or they are overstimulated. So I don't think anyone really knows. There is obviously a big market here for a new type of sleep book, so when we get the answer we can write one and be rich!!!! But seriously, wouldn't it be lovely if they were only awake for a few mins in the night, nevermind STTN!!
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Thanks girls.
Yes they said NWs were behavioural! They aren't! I know sometimes the OT monster can cause them but TBH we have issues even when he naps well and so I know this isn't to blame, although of course he's going to OT if he spends hours awake at night ::)
There was a programme on TV last night (I recorded it - it was on at 9pm, which is far too late!) about britains youngest sleep walker, I also read an article in the paper about her and she has insomnia. Her episodes at night where they thought she was sleep walking she is actually awake and after 2yrs her parents finally got a diagnosis of insomnia. I'm convinced this is the case now with DS. It's just getting someone to listen. I mean the insomnia may be caused by OT BUT what has been causing all thr frequent NWs before given he used to STTN every night from 10wks old (no DF either!)
I feel lost. :(
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OMG!! I'm sure my two suffer with insomnia too! I cannot explain what else it is! My DS has never STTN much until recently, but we still get him awake in the night sometimes, even when he has napped well. My DD STTN from 12 weeks and then started waking again at about 9 mths. It got really bad with her though (by really bad I mean the lengthy wakings of at least 60mins) from about 13 mths to 22mths. Then she mostly STTN again until she started fighting the nap at 3 yrs!! So it could still be OT with your DS as I did read somewhere that some babies who have learnt to STTN start waking again at around 9mths, due to developmental changes. Think I read it in Save Our Sleep by Kizzie Hall, but not entirely sure as have read soooooo many sleep books!!! Fingers crossed it is just a waiting game with your DS too, and he is still transitioning and taking aaaaages to do it like my LOs. Sorry, I really don't have many other ideas, the OT monster seems to be the only real answer for me. I sometimes wonder if there is another problem with my kids but I have read so much and asked so many professionals for help and most just say it is behavioural. I really believe it is a type of insomnia, what was the advice for the parents with the DD with insomnia?
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Tired 56 - When I've watched the programme I'll let you know! It did start around 10months with Oliver, I think it's now exaggerated by OT but what was causing this in the first place IYSWIM? The thing is last week he was def OT. We caught him up and he had one great night, then it started all over again. So now he's probably OT again. Even when he's caught up because he can't stay asleep properly he gets OT again. Interestingly though the sleep clinic didn't even suggest he was OT. TBH it was a complete waste of time. Where do you live?
Lizzie - He has cow's milk intolerance and although I'd planned to introduce cow's milk soon I haven't because his sleep is so bad. I have tried cutting out wheat type things but then it doesn't leave much!
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Hey sweetie,
Yeah I thought I remembered that Oliver had MPI as well as mild reflux and his other blood condition!! I really do feel for you!
Do you get the impression that he is waking in pain? You say that he often doesn't cry, just tosses and turns? Probably suggests it isn't pain doesn't it?! How is he eating now, could he be waking from some hunger?
I am very surprised that the sleep clinic wouldn't have even mentioned that he was over tired, I don't see how he couldn't be...you certainly are you poor darling!!
Have you made an appointment with your GP yet?
I just had a thought too, if Oliver is still immunocompromised could he have candidia? This often happens when the immune system isn't working great (just like thrush turns up) and can cause massive sleep disturbance, I think you can do a blood test for this...I only ask because I have recently heard of two people I know who have been diagnosed with this condition, it's closely linked to irritable bowel syndrome. A nautropath would probably be the person to ask about this....
Not trying to worry you with more "possible diagnoses"....
My course of action would be, make your docs appointment asap...if they are no help maybe head to an alternative person (naturopath, chinese med specialist etc) and get a different perspective. I really don't think that this could be "behavioural", I'm sure you would be seeing an improvement by now if you have drastically changed how you are responding to his NWs, but HEY WHAT THE HELL WOULD I KNOW!!! Hugs to you lovely, I know where you are at
xxLizzie