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ACTIVITY => E.A.S.Y. Forum => Topic started by: koe2moe on August 22, 2009, 08:57:37 am
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Hi I just read the other post about A time extension and how it related to waking time.
DS is now falling asleep for his second nap. Can I ask a quick question before I have time to post his routine?
What if he had a 45 min nap (I understand it's very likely to be UT), then.. what do I do for the next A time? keep at 3 hours? or shorter or longer? I think he's going through teething and developmental milestone at the same time, so he's extra cranky.
Thanks... Need to go to DS now.
Koe
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We usually shorten by 15 mins or so after a short nap BUT if it was definately UT then you might not need to.
Post what happens later and I'll try and help properly :).
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I'm guessing changing th nappy would be too much at this age. W2S is not as effective for EWs and it is for short napping either :-\. If I changed Jacobs nappy at 4am we would be up at 4am. Full stop.
For me EWs have always been OT at bedtime, or too much total daysleep.
Let me know how today goes and then we can see if it is a routine issue.
Huge ((hugs)) short napping and EWs are the WORST. Especially the EWs ::).
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whoops... i think i messed it up a bit with hitting enter too early before i finished my last posting.
Cut & paste (will delete the old one so not to confuse the thread :P):
DS woke up after 40 or 45 mins from his 2nd nap. Now down for 3rd nap. I can't tell how it all started. There were a couple of perfect days a week ago. So I thought perhaps things would go better.
Perhaps I'll just give you the routine of yesterday which was a disaster because I thought perhaps W2S would help.
4am stirred
4:30 stirred again (little sounds. so i picked up DS and changed him. He became awake and I put him down, he tried tossing turning on his own and couldn't get back to sleep.)
5:30 got DS up
6:00 E Bottle - Formula with cereal in it 170ml
7:50 - 8:50 S (I thought he must be overtired, so I put him down earlier and when he showed cues)
9:45 E Snack Pear 50g
11:50 - 12:05 S (Fell asleep in the pram when I had to run errands)
12:15 E Lunch Couscous, chicken and veggies 90g + Formula 100ml
14:30 - 15:30 S (I thought 15 mins catnap doesn't count, 5hrs 40mins A time. Is 1 hour always UT?)
16:15 E Snack Couscous (same as above) 50g + Formula 120ml (normally is fruit, crackers or bread, but i gave warm meal because just in case he got too tired later to eat)
17:30 E Dinner Couscous 30g + Pear 10g (wouldn't eat more)
18:15 Bath
18:35 E Bottle - Formula with cereal 170ml
18:45 - 5am Sleep. Stirred at 4am again. (bed time used to be between 7:30-7:45, but last week i noticed DS was so tired, so we just put him to bed earlier to 7pm and woke up at 5:45)
exactly one week ago,
5:45 woke up
6:30 E Bottle
7:40 - 8:10 S
10:00 E Pear 60g
11:15 E warm meal 30g + pear 20g + Formula 100ml
12 - 12:30 S
14:00 E 1/2 slice brown bread
15:40 - 16:15 S
16:30 E Formula 200ml
18:10 E warm meal 110g + banana 15g
19:15 Bath
19:30 Bottle with cereal 200ml
19:45 - 7:05am no stirring that woke us up.
Usually 3-4 catnaps until this day. The following day was 1.5 hr and 1hr 20mins naps. If it would be helpful, I would post the other days' routines also.
thanks again.
ADD:
Yesterday's after two UT short naps. Followed your advice on UT nap, he finally had 1.5 hr nap in the afternoon (3rd nap). He was able to have dinner around 6, ate very well and happy to play around afterwards till bath time, down in bed at 7:40pm. Here's the day.
5:00 wake up
5:30 out of bed
6:15 E Bottle - Formula with cereal 200ml
7:30 S 45 mins
8:15 A
9:00 E snack - pear 50g
11:00 S 40 mins
11:40 A
12:00 E lunch potato, chicken, veggies 120g + bottle 120ml
15:15 E snack - 1/4 brown bread + bottle 150ml
16:15 S 1hr 25mins
17:40 A
18:00 E dinner couscous dinner 120g + pear 50g
19:15 bath
19:30 bottle - 200ml
19:40 in bed...
19:50 - 6:00 sleep... no stirring :)
So... your suggestion has already helped! Thanks so much. Because this early waking started around close to 6 mos, I was too preoccupied with introducing solids and thought it was hunger. So yesterday, total day time sleep is 3hr 30mins. Should I ensure that it's no more than 3 hours? Or was it that we put him to bed too late? But, say, next time when there was UT or OT, how do I adjust the rest of the day to avoid EW again?
Thanks
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I think your EW is being caused by being OT at bedtime. The 1 hr naps are difficult as sometimes they are UT and sometimes OT depending on the baby. For me 1hr tends to be UT but 1h 15 OT. But really just depends I'm afraid.
I would try stretching that first A to 3hrs and see if that improves the morning nap. All these 2 hr A's are likely too little.
3 hrs day sleep is likely about right at this age - give or take.
The key to avoiding the EW is working out how much A your LO can do after the pm nap - whether it is a long nap or a short nap.
Lets see if by stretching the A's to 3hrs we can make 2 long naps though instead of all these catnaps.
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It's the end of our day and it turned out to be pretty good day. 2 x 1.5 (almost) naps.
6:00 wakes
6:30 E
9:00 - 10:25 S
10:25 A
10:50 E snack
12:00 E lunch
14:00 - 15:25 S
16:15 E snack
19:15 bath, bottle
19:45 Put in bed but a bit too late perhaps, took DS 30mins to settle fully to sleep.
what about this 1hr 25mins nap? UT? DS was eating well today, playing well. 3 hrs first A and 3.5 hrs second A. It's quite hard to keep that exact on time. If OT again back on 30 mins catnap, how much do I shorten the A time that follows?
I'm going to bed and will update DS' wake up time tomorrow. Have a great sunday.
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DS woke at 5:45. Quite happy but now after 2 hours, he has slowed down quite a bit. Will try my best to keep him for another hour before his first nap. Since I put him to bed at 7:45, but asleep around 8:15, which time do I count for his sleep? Does it mean he's OT?
He's already rubbing eyes and now it's just 8. Not sure if i can keep him up for 45 mins. ???
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Disaster. DH took over as he got up. Reminded him to try and keep DS up until 8:45, but he said DS wasn't showing sleepy cues and only put him down at 9:15am! DS woke up after 45mins, tried to extend his nap, he started standing up and now DH is trying to extend, and I can hear DS screaming, crying.
What to do?! What time should be bed time tonight? How much next A time?! I thought I had it yesterday... now it's back to sq one... :'(
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You can see I'm desperate and I need hand holding. Help please!
5:45 wake
9:15 - 10:00 S (DH told me that when he got into DS's room, he heard some big noises, so he was probably woken up)
13:15 - 14:00 S (I kept activities kind of low key
15:30 - 16:10 S
19:10 S (quite easy to go down, almost falling asleep at the last bottle at 18:50) (Oh I thought he's falling asleep but just now he's making sounds for help. so he's still not asleep at 19:25 but hopefully he will be.)
I don't know what it will be like tonight. I put him to bed earlier because he hardly got much rest during the day and last night wasn't great either. Should I put him to bed even earlier next time this happens?
Thanks in advance
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5:35 wake up again :'(
can someone give me some advice please?
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So sorry I didn't see all this sooner. I work in the early part of the week so am not online quite so much.
OT sucks doesn't it :(.
Right A is everything from eyes open until eyes closed - so you would need to count up until 8.15am so that would mean a 4h 15 A which is too long. I think the fact he took 30 mins to nod off will also mean he was already OT when his head hit the pillow.
It is hard to be sure with the 1h 25 naps - really depends on the baby. For Jacob at the same age it would have been OT, but only by 10 mins or so.
I would have done an earlier bedtime I think - probably about 6.45 or so.
Right - so 3hrs A gives a decent am nap, and then 3.5hrs A did the same, but then 3.5hrs was too much to bedtime likely because there never was a beautiful long nap.
Tomorrow I would try 3hrs A - but aiming to be fast asleep at 3hrs, and be prepared to go down 10 mins or so earlier if he is losing it. If you get a nap of 1.5hrs is then aim for 3h 15 mins as the second A, and then an A of 3hrs ish until bedtime. Perhaps a little longer if the pm nap is super but if it less than perfect play it safe go closer to 3hrs. Not all los like long A's at the end of the day, especially if they are prone to OT EWs.
If the first nap is short then its a bit of a judgement call. If he woke happy and handles the A well and you think UT then go for the 3hrs A, but if he is cranky then reduce by 15 mins or so.
I hope that helps. I will be here to hand hold from now on - and I'm so sorry I didn't see all your posts yesterday :(. I work again tomorrow so will only be back online at this sort of time, but will be online more after that.
I'm thinking your lo might be a same A all day kind of baby. Have you ever worked this stuff out before when your routine was working?
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Thanks so much for your reply.
What you wrote makes a lot of sense. I'll make a game plan for tomorrow. But today wasn't a good day either.
5:35 wake
8:00 S first nap because he's really rubbing eyes, pulling ears, etc. but only slept for 10-15 mins and cried. i tried PU/PD... then realised he did #2 ::) so after changing him, he's wide awake.
11:20 S 35 mins (not sure if he was woken by noises outside... garbage trucks >:( or perhaps just OT)
14:25 S 45 mins woke up very happy but the rest of A was only a bottle, went shopping with me in the pram, dinner... after that the usual wind down prebed routine.
19:30 S went down very calm and tiny bit of mantra noises...
About his routine in the past. I'm afraid that i never looked at it this way. Always just focus on the whole day (overall wake up time and day sleep), prop, teething, HW, hunger (ready for solids), room temperature. I There were two times I had to be away for almost a week each time. Not really sure if DH did AP, but I don't want to focus on that coz he wouldn't be happy :P I guess I was too preoccupied and looked at wrong places. I'll go back to the previous days/months to see if I can pick out some patterns and let you know.
i have more questions: So basically, I only go by each A time? If one nap failed, say that he only had 10 min nap this morning, I just didn't know what to do next? He seemed energetic and i kept him low key but DH thinks DS probably didn't get to crawl around enough to use his energy up.
And if he keeps waking up around 5:30 and short naps, then his bed time would be close to 6? Do I just watch the last A time or do I watch the wake up time? If I keep putting him to bed around 6, would that become his bedtime, meaning his wake time will definitely around 5?!?! :'(
What shall we do when we know it's approaching his nap time but he just didn't seem tired at all? That's what happened with DH and hence the 4h 15A. Before he took over, DS was already rubbing eyes and then the changeover seemed to have given him more energy. Yeah papa, new play time, perhaps. :P
You have given me great guidelines. I never knew how much to decrease A time, etc. Thanks so much.
BTW *holding out hand* here's my hand, please take it lol
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A lot of los just don't look tired at this age until they are SHATTERED. Tired signs become so unreliable, fussing can he teeth or frustration, and if the cues are not working it is best to just use the clock for a while to try and get out of the hole. I always find if I can get consistency for a few days is gets easier as their little body clocks set a bit to expect sleep.
Failed naps are just a nightmare to recover from, and I think often there really is little you can do but enough catnaps to get you to bedtime, especially after a 10 min nap. And repeat tomorrow is another day :). You could have given him 30-45mins A and tried again. Just depends whether your lo would accept that or not. I think that is what I would have tried after a 10 min nap.
My DS gets very hyper when tired as well. Makes it even harder to work him out.
Don't worry about the over stimulation too much at this age. A lot of them do like to crawl like mad :). I don't agree with your DH though - that second nap was certainly OT :(.
And early bedtimes won't lead to earlier and earlier wake-ups. But OT bedtimes will. So never be afraid of them when needed. What I tend to do is push the bedtime back as soon as I get a decent nap day.
I think your lo need 3hrs ish A and 3.5hrs A is too much at the moment - especially if he is crawling everywhere.
There is hope. I had my little man waking at 4am :o due to an OT loop 2 weeks ago but he now has a nice new routine and I am back to 6.30am wake-ups. My issue was a UT first nap leading to short naps and OT bedtimes. But it is a nightmare when you are dealing with it. Jacob was almost put on Ebay when he was waking at 4am. I mean for goodness sake :o ::) :P.
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I understand that earlier bedtime won't give earlier waketimes, but what if he consistently wakes at 5:30?!?! :-[ I mean would it reinforce the bodyclock?
A bit of background is that... He was teething real bad, screaming one night and NWs, then i got insomnia for full 2 weeks! That was 4 weeks ago, so I just couldn't even handle the day to day. DH stepped in, (otherwise i would have collapsed). No matter what I told DH, he wouldn't keep to the time I suggested. DS used to get tired at 2hr, DH got him to be up for 3hr. So he did something good :P
Also I think the second nap was short because he's hungry LOL... I expected DS to be tired earlier, so he only had a snack at the usual time. Then when he's tired, it's too late to stuff him up :P He was yawning and yawning and yawning in the pram and just wouldn't fall asleep! I could have put him to bed earlier as I was prepared and fed him earlier. But DH and DS had the usual fun at bedtime routine haha
I didn't know that tomorrow's another day :P i thought it accumulates... phew.. :)) there is hope i guess
ADD: also, what does 1hr nap mean to you? UT? OT? And when DS shows tired cues like 2hr after wake time, what should I do? I thought perhaps because of EW, he's extra tired, so I would tend to put him to bed right away. His 1st A time used to be 2hr. 1st nap would be around 1.5hr Perhaps it's the 1st nap too early that caused the EW then. I just can't think. I'm so tired... heading to bed... thanks a lot.
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Lets try and get decent naps and then move that wake-up time.
I agree 5.30am is just NO fun :(.
Let me know how you get on today - I'll be around after work. Groan.
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I'm confused again.
He woke up at 6:00 which was great! so...10hr 30 sleep. But only 30mins nap after 3hr A time. Woke up happy, but seemed tired to me. No external stimulus that I noticed. I'm tempted to put him down for another try but then it might end up be UT.
I'll probably try next A time 3hr 15? Have a good workday.
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Hey Liz
I just realise you're in UK, I'm in Amsterdam, so same time zones.
Here's today:
6:00 wake up (which is great) (he slept 7:30 - 6)
9:00 S 30mins very happy (he was yawning a lot around 11:15 while we went for a walk, so I tried putting him to sleep at 11:25, no success, but then it's just part of A i guess)
9:30 A
12:55 S 30mins (PU/PD did #2 again so had to change diaper, tried again and then gave up at 14:30)
13:28 A
16:00 S 30mins (didn't plan to put him to sleep but he fell asleep in the pram) very happy
19:15 S I started dinner half hour early because he's very tired even after the catnap, and hopefully he won't be OT for the night.
So..
1st A 3hr S 30mins
2nd A 3hr 25 S 30mins
3nd A 3hr S 30mins
4th A 2hr 45
I got so frustrated and felt like a failure that I can't help my LO to have good naps. Trying to extend his naps, he was crying soooooo much. Just couldn't calm him at all. It's as if he's really teling me he doesn't want to sleep. It breaks my heart.
Is it possible that DS likes A times, 2hr, 4hr and then 3hr? There's one day a bit like that just over a week ago but then he was up 3:30-5 am. Do you count this 1.5h out or as part of night sleep?
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It is certainly possible that the 3hrs A first thing is too much now that he is short napping again. A lot of los like that first A to be shorter than the rest.
Why don't you reduce to 2h 45 mins tomorrow first thing and see if it helps?
That 30 mins nap is most likely OT.
I think that the good nap after only 2hrs A last week will have been due to the lost time overnight really. Some los do have some strange A patterns - and it is not uncommon for the longest A to be in the middle of the day - so you might be onto something with the idea.
Early bedtimes and dinner are a great idea :).
Let me know how it is going tomorrow.
Sleepy vibes for your lo for tonight
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LO was for a while waking up around 5 - 5:30, for a bottle and then an hour later, very tired and got 1.5hrs nap. I understand now that it's probably his night sleep still. Then he got to 2h first A and slept 1.5h... It seemed like he wants his afternoon catnap back :o
I'll pay attention to the first A again. This morning we wanted to have him asleep by 2h 45, but extra soiled diaper, etc. got it delayed to 3h. I also wonder perhaps it's hunger that woke him up. Because of EW, longer A, it clashed with his usual snack time?
If external stimulus woke him up, like noises outside, if he's woken up at 30min or 45min point, and couldn't get him back to sleep, what should I do with the following A?
This is probably not the place to post this but do you know if LO has 4 soiled diapers a day, am I feeding him too much solids??? They get very untimely these days.
Good night for you and your lo, too
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5am wake up :'(
7 S 30mins :'(
last night, crying a bit at close to midnight.. didn't need us and fell back to sleep. two nights before, no stirring thay we could hear... what did we do wrong???
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So did he sleep from 7.15 - 5am? 10.25hrs? OT for sure.
What a pain about the first short nap.
I'm going to guess it was UT even though 30 mins. My DS does 30-45 min naps for either UT or OT. 37 mins is his favourite though.
Try 2.5ish hrs for the second.
Is anything else going on? Teething etc? Can make it very hard for them to transition the cycles. Have you tried giving pain meds?
How long has all this been going on now - weeks or longer? Has your DS ever been a good napper?
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Just put him down for a nap and he was crying. OT already probably. 2h 50, but not really sleeping yet... or i'm not sure coz if i go in to check, will probably wake him ...
He was very tired this morning and that's why DH put him down 2h. DS' a bit grumpy/restless... He used to give us a little cry when he's tired. Like it's enough, I can't handle anymore. I didn't have to look at the clock. These days i'm just totally confused. Teething is possible but he didn't cry or scream. If he couldn't fall back to sleep, I would have given him some homeopathic drops. But I laid hand on his back, and he quieted down. That was last night about midnight.
Sleep and nap are always a problem. Dummy became a prop, and it got so bad that he kept waking every transition almost. So I weaned him off around 7mo. Then he had good naps for a short time. Then he got off DF, just sometimes wouldn't take the bottle at all, perhaps waking him at 11pm interrupted his sleep, stopped DF and probably started waking early for hunger. So I thought needed to get more solids in him and increase milk intake during the day. Naps were still decent back then.
Then teething pain in the middle of night screaming. After teething pain, 5am waking, so we did W2S and got one day 6, one day 7 wake up. Then back to 5:30, 4:30 wakings. I thought it was hunger. If he woke before 5, just gave him a bottle, he would finish 200ml easily and put him back to bed straight away. But if he wakes 5 or after, just get him up for the day. All those happened within 3 weeks. It was a nightmare. I got insomnia since then.
One more week later, he started skipping his afternoon catnap sometimes. Probably it's the transition to drop the catnap but some days he had it, some days not. I just can't see a consistent pattern. His solid intake increases nicely, a week after that. I was just focussing on feedings and teething, didn't think about A time, etc. I was posting in Sleep and Natalie suggested me post here.
Last 2 days, we seemed to have got some progress, then he pooped in the middle of his naps. I'm at my wit's end. Can't really think.
He just woke up. 2nd S also 30 mins :'(
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So when he was 7mths and napping well was he on 2 or 3 naps and roughly what A time?
I think we need to crack the first A time and get that first nap a decent length first.
When he wakes early do you leave him in the cot at all or just get him straight up? When I get an EW I leave him in the cot for as long as I can before he goes mad. Usually he will sit and shuffle about a bit for a while and eventually get bored and fuss. Then after I get him up I keep roughly to his usual nap time - I might go 30 mins earlier if it was terrible or 15 mins later if he had slept really well at night but I aim to keep the nap loosely around the same time.
Have you had a look at the sample routines for this age group so you can see where we are trying to get too.
I had A LOT of EWs at that age. It is a really common problem.
Does he respond to any form of AP to get your pm nap in? A buggy ride or something?
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It's really hard to tell coz there's no pattern. And usually only one good nap max or none per day. I went back a little further. It was better before he turned 7 mo. 1st A under 2h, can be 1h - 1h45, S for 1h to 1h45. He was having 4 bottles on 4hr EASY and DF. When he had a short nap, I would take him for a walk hoping he would get extra nap in (I only thought I needed to pay attention to total day sleep). So he ended up with 4 naps a day quite often.
These days sometimes even when he keeps yawning throughout the walk, he wouldn't sleep. But yesterday, 5 mins in the pram, already sleeping.
I had looked at a lot of sample routines. But my mind isn't clear enough to work anything out. I keep seeing lots of words and nos.
If I put DS to bed UT, what might happen? I went by mother's instincts last night to put him to bed around 7pm but took him 20 mins to fall asleep. I intended to put him to bed at 6:30 but he just only woke up from his nap at 4:30. Was worried that 2h A time just wasn't enough.
Oh yeah we always only go to DS when he starts crying. It doesn't take long, perhaps max 15mins after initial sounds.
Down for his 3rd nap (it's such a long day when he wakes at 5) 3h A time.
There are 3 consecutive good days 2 weeks ago. I quoted initially one of them. Perhaps i'll give u 4 days:
Day1 (bad day)
5:45 A wakeup 1h55
7:40 S 30mins
8:10 A 2h50
12:00 S 30mins
12:30 A 3h10
15:40 S 35mins
16:15 A 3h30
19:45 S up between 3:30 - 5 slept till 7:05! (if u dont' count the awake moment, he slept 11h20, but minus that it's only 9h50)
Day2 (good naps)
7:05 A wake up 1h55
9:00 S 1h30
10:30 A 3h30
14:00 S 1h20
15:20 A 4h30
19:50 S till 6 10h10
Day3
6:00 A wake up 2h
8:00 S 1h30
9:30 A 3h30
13:00 S 1h20
14:20 A 4h40
19:00 S - 5:44 10h44
Day4 (very good day, though still EW)
5:44 A wake up 1h55
7:40 S 1h30
9:10 A 3h35
12:45 S 1h45
14:30 A 4h05
18:35 S - 5:50 11h20
Thanks so much. I seem to see a pattern now that I type it out. But the next two days gone bad. But interesting. Seems to show a change (we were just following DS' cues)
Day5
5:50 A wake up 3h10
8:00 S 30mins (OT likely)
8:30 A 2h40
11:10 S 30mins
11:40 A 2h20
14:00 S 30mins
14:30 A 4h10
18:40 S - 5:30 10h50
Day6
5:30 A wake up 3h
8:30 S 1h
9:30 A 3h30
14:00 S 1h21
15:21 A 3h39
19:00 S - 5:30 10h30
Perhaps DS' adjusting himself to drop the catnap or for more A time during the day. Seems like 4h last A is good. But last night was 2h30 last A and OT sleep? I'm confused again.. ::)
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here's today.. i'm still confused
5:00 wake up A 2h
7:00 S 30mins
7:30 A 3h
10:30 S 30mins
11:00 A 3h
14:00 S 1h05
15:05 A 4h
19:05 S (Do I count the moment he drops off but he jolts back and i went in and told him it's sleepy time, he laid back down around 19:15?)
Today whole days he's not too energetic. After the afternoon nap, he's yawning in our daily walk again. I didn't let him fall asleep. If he's falling asleep while taking his last bottle, does it mean he's already OT?
Can you perhaps spot some patterns or clues that can help us? Thanks!
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Spotting patterns IS hard.
Looks like your lo wants a short A in the morning and a long A before bed.
Also looks like that first A may actually be closer to 2hrs. I still think it needs extending slightly though partly to try and get rid of these horrid EWs. I would do 2h 15 A for 3 days, and then aim to extend to 2h 30. Once we have the first A we can find the second. But for now try 3hrs after a short nap and 3h 30 after a longer nap (longer than 1hr I think) then if it is a long nap 4hrs to bed.
If he short naps all day then try and get him in bed earlier. It shouldn't make the EW worse - it should just allow him a more restful nights sleep so OT doesn't creep in the next day.
So that is the plan and we should try and stick to it for 5 days now so we can evaluate properly. We do need to try and set your little mans body clock a bit - and that in turn will help the naps to extend.
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Thanks. So you think even if it's the right A time, it can take a few days to settle?
But if he keeps having 14 hr day, that's not great :( And if we keep putting him to bed at 7, wouldn't he just keep waking latest at 6?? How can we gradually shift it later? Or will it sort itself out later?
It's fascinating that when a child sleeps well, takes 3-4 hr nap during day and 11-12 hr night. DS must be so sleep deprived also :'(
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No :'(!! Your DS seems to actually be on the lower end of sleep needs and handling quite long A's in the afternoon.
He is mainly doing 10.5 hrs at night and a 13.5 hr day. There are plenty of babies that only ever do 11hr nights - my DS is one of them. 12 hrs is quite the exception for us.
My DS at 8 mths would sleep 10.5 hours at night and 3 hrs during the day. Currently it is 11hrs at night (usually) and 2.5 hrs during the day. But at 5 months it was quite a lot less than this :(.
I don't think you DS is massively sleep deprived at all - its just his routine is a mess at the moment. His total amount of sleep brings him in at about 13hrs a day which is a little short but nothing terrible :).
Yes even with the right A it can take a little time to settle :).
And once we have his naps settled we will just push the morning nap 10 mins or so later every few days to slowly move the wake-up time later. If he is not OT he will tolerate staying awake an extra 10 mins without busting the nap, and I also think when the A before bed is shorter he will extend his night sleep to 11+ hrs anyway.
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Thanks again for your reply. I saw that last 2 nights DS was sooooo tired even just after his last nap. Tonight after a kind of good nap, he's just yawning and cranky at dinner although he ate very well. He's never been cranky before. He woke at 5 and went to bed at 7 with only catnaps, of course, he's tired. If this happens the next 5 days with the suggested plan, should I put him to bed close to 13 hours after he wakes? Possibly close to 6pm? But then he definitely won't wake up later... hmmm whoops... nvm.. i should just go shower and to bed... nite
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Oh dear!
4:30 A wake up :'( 2h
5:00 DH got him up
6:30 S 28 mins :'(
6:58 A this should hv been the 1st A
another v long day :'(
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OT loop :'(.
I know your pain - DS did this to me a few weeks ago.
Is there anyway you can extend the next nap?
When J woke at 4am and refused to go back to sleep I got him up at 6.30am then put him back down at 9.20am. He woke and cried out for a few after 30 mins, but I ignored him and he went back to sleep, then woke again after another 45 mins and cried a bit harder this time but I ignored him, and after 5 mins he went back to sleep for another 1h 40 mins :o. Half the reason I didn't go to him was because I was asleep in the room next door and just couldn't gather myself up. J doesn't go to sleep if I am with him though - only by himself.
When he was younger and clearly OT I could pick him up for a few, repeat my sleepy phrase and resettle. PU/PD just wound him up.
I mean with 2hrs A him will def be tired with such a horrid EW so is there any way you can extend?
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We're all OT!!! Thanks for your reply.
DH got up to get DS up to prevent him crying so loud that would wake me up. We discussed the plan for next 5 days last night, perhaps he thought he ought to stick with it but it's also possible that he's too tired to think.
I just put him down A 1h50. I don't even know to treat this as 1st or 2nd A but he seemed tired. Hopefully he will be asleep by A 2h.
I'll try my best to extend and i'll also try to ignore which i never did. Perhaps I will do a full day of UT, it's better UT than more OT right? At least hopefully we can get the prebed A to be no more than 3h30. If he needs to go to bed at 6:30, that's fine. Would this make things worse?
ADD: oh and he also stirred at 1:30. Previous nights he was sleeping through to 5 or 5:30. What do these stirrings mean??
Oh how can I tell if he goes to bed at night UT? There was another day he stirred at 4:30 (he seems to transition always at 4:30) and i got him up as W2S and he wouldnt' go back to sleep. That A was 3h20 and he slept 1h. Can it be UT sleep because he had 1 1h nap and 1 1h35 nap that day? (I'm just trying to understand cause and effect.)
I know the feeling of not being able to get up. hugzzzz we both need support! Glad yours' over. Thanks for helping us.
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((Hugs)) yes I bet you all are OT.
I HATE EWs. I would rather get up 3 times a night to resettle than have to get up for good at 5am. It is just painful.
The night stirrings are likely OT as well TBH. I also find DS enters a very light sleep stage at about 5am. If he is either OT or UT he just wakes up (or if anyone moves in the house ::)) but if all is fine he just goes back to sleep.
Do what you think is right today and then post the whole day for me too see as well.
What baby 'type' is he?
The other option we could try is set nap times. Some los do very well with them at this sort of age, but it does result in having to 'ride out' a bit of OT.
Does he have a mantra cry that you know?
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Hugzzzz... thanks.. i'm sorry that I keep posting... i'll post the whole day at the end of the day. Now put him down for 3rd nap, hopefully he will get an hour sleep at least. DH also down for a nap.
I think I know his mantra criES.. he has tonnes, but when he start really crying with volume increasing, then we just go in. He did mantra for about 15mins, then started crying. If this next nap is no good, i'll let him cry longer... (not mantra) :P
But he was quite happy after 2nd catnap. Probably a bit UT after 2 x A2h. I could be way off. So I kept this A quiet before and after lunch aiming at around 3h30.
Oh he's a textbook baby little spirited. My gut feeling tells me that he likes the 1st A to be 3h. I'm just not sure how to handle it when he's showing tired cues too early. Or it he woke too early. But I'm just guessing. Before we started EASY (we did it around 12 weeks), he was like an alarm clock, 3h after previous bottle, WAAAAAhhhh woke up for bottle. Then... he suddenly wanted to tank up in the evening just like EASY. All initiated by him. I was just following his demands. That's why when I noticed the sudden change from A2h to A3h, he's probably on to something.
But today, i'll follow his cues. At least not waking before 5. It's just so hard. DH is also working towards deadline for monday. But he's still helping me heaps.
The interesting thing is that he didn't have night stirrings for 3 nights. Those days only 3 catnaps. If I didn't know about EASY, i would have thought he had less day sleep, so tired enough to sleep through the night. *pulls hair* I'm going crazy :P
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Quick update! Super good news! S 2.5h!!! So aiming for next A 4h10
we all got a bit rest!! thanks heaps!
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I'd go slightly less TBH - remember that will have been a catch up sleep - doesn't mean he can do mega long A's again yet.
BUT yey for the long sleep :-* :-*
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oh... u mean 4h or shorter??? uh oh.. might be running late already :'(
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4hrs max I would say. 4hrs+ is A LOT for a 8.5 mth old.
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:'( A4h05 or 10 he's asleep..... :(( i hope i didn't ruin it again. :(
wish you a great weekend :)
whoops should add today:
4:30 wake up A 2h
6:30 S 30mins
7:00 A 2h
9:00 S 30mins
9:30 A 3h30
13:00 S 2h30 ;)
15:30 A 4h05 or 10
19:35 or 19:40 S
DS is back to himself, very happy, played nicely. I want to hit my head for putting him to bed late. DH and I always kid about what DS might say to his shrink when he grows up. He might just go like this, "my parents always meant well, but they just weren't very good at understanding me...." hehe :P
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That isn't too bad - be interesting to see what time he wakes at least :P.
Have a great weekend :)
We are just hanging out so no doubt I will be online from time to time.
Or busy correcting OT after letting my DS have 2x 1 nap days :o.
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hope yours won't be as bad as mine!! :P
DH will be working all weekend. (Today he ended up taking a 3h nap LOL. i'm jealous!) So no work done. We'll definitely be in!! I sometimes wonder so many moms just bring their babies everywhere they go whenever. How do the babies cope and how do moms without EASY cope??? :P
time to bed nite nite
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1:30 and 4:30 stirrings. DH almost got up and I asked him to stay put. 10 mins later, DS settled and fell back asleep! YAY thanks for the tip soooo much.
5:25 wake up within 2 mins started crying harder and harder. So DH got him up. OT :'( My bad.
Another day! Gotta stay positive!
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Yeah - expected really - I think that 2h 30 nap was a ccatch up and he probably needed his final A to still be closer to 3hrs to allow him to 'sort himself out'.
Shoot for a sensible A this morning though - if he isn't doing a good nap with a super short A we need to get him to a sensible A for his age. ie aiming towards 3hrs.
I think if moving towards 3hrs A doesn't help we might need to try set nap times for a while.
Happy napping :) :)
BTW - Jacob woke at 4.50am singing but nodded back off until 6am. So not awful but not great. Think the OT monster is coming here as well ;).
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:'(
1st A 2h05 S 40mins cranky
tempted to put him down now for a catnap, it's raining outside, otherwise a walk can calm him or even get a nap into him...
is it more important to get him rested now or to establish schedule... ???
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Just try and get a bit of sleep into him.
He is being quite resistant to 'catch up' sleep so I think I would just start to shoot for what would be a reasonable routine for him from tomorrow and hope he 'adjusts' to it.
Basically I would get as close to 3hrs A first thing as you can. He is 8.5 mths he MUST be able to do 3hrs, and then I would just stick to 3hrs ish all day including before bed.
I think you are right and he needs a predictable schedule.
We need to aim for something like
Awake 5.30am (aiming to get rid of soon)
Nap 1 8.30am - 10am
Nap 2 1-3pm
Then 7-7.30pm bedtime (7.30pm if he slept the full 2hrs)
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Awww thanks! It helps to see it in B&W. My head's just filled with numbers. My back also hurts like hell.
Today is just sleep when he shows tired cues day. Down again A2h10 or 15 coz he's yawning at lunch. 2nd nap only 35mins again. If he wakes early, then around 2hA, take him down for a walk, walk until he would fall asleep!!! >:(
then 6:30 or 7 bed...
how's yours doing so far?
ADD: I just discussed with DH. He said the last 2 mornings, just couldn't get DS to last longer than 2h. couldn't play nice and coordination's not there.. (very cute to watch, though haha) but if we get him to bed early, should at least get some more sleep in the night. I guess that's the idea, right?
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A2H15 S1H10
Woke up at 2:30. If I put him to bed A3h30, he goes to bed at 6, he's bound to wake at 4:30???
:'(
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Here's today:
5:25 wake up A 2h10
7:35 S 35mins (or it could be A2h15 S30mins)
8:10 A 2h20
10:30 S 35mins
11:05 A 2h15
13:20 S 1h10
14:30 A 2h50 (4h05 till bedtime with a 30mins CN)
17:20 S 30mins
17:50 A 1h45
19:35 S
I agree that last A should be around 3h ultimately (until the next change :P) coz even after the CN, during dinner at 18:15, he's rubbing eyes. Today overall he ate a whole 100g less solids! I hope he won't wake for hunger!!!
Will try the 3hr A times all day then. What if he's still super tired at around 2h for 1st A? And if he only gets crap naps like 2x30mins or even 2x 1hr naps, then bedtime would become.. oh wait... last A is 4h?? A from 3 to 7 or 7:30. If crap naps, what should I do? coz he would be OT even by dinner time.
I'm tempted to just take him out all day and when he's tired, he would sleep in the stroller :p But I haven't tried feeding him solids outside of home yet!!! Just logistics issues.. I'm not too keen on... hmmm Any tips?
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If you need to squeeze in an extra catnap like you did today :).
When you do the A extension keep him gently occupied. When they are crawling about they tend to get very tired and miserable easily, but sat on someones knee looking at books, or in the buggy they notice it less.
I'm pretty convinced those first bad naps are actually UT TBH.
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Yeah I agree totally. It's like too tired to stay up but UT for good nap. Will work on maintaining the first A 3hrs. If it fails, then just sneak in CN to avoid too bad OT for bed. If the CN is only very shortly before bedtime, would that affect night sleep?
Would it be wise to set bed time to 6-6:30? Since he's been waking at 5-ish for so long. Of course, I haven't tried because I don't want 4-ish wake up :o
How's your LO's day?
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Yes I bedtime within 13 hrs of wake up time should help reverse some of the OT.
CN's too close to bedtime can have an impact in some los but I think it would be wise to squeeze one in at the moment.
J was good today - fell asleep in the car at 10am and I transferred him to the car and he slept for 2 hrs, then he had a 40 min pm nap and early bedtime. So I'm hoping that will catch us up from the last few days.
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Good morning
4:30 start again. We let DS try to resettle himself but after 40 mins he escalated. It was soiled diaper!!! 1st A 3h and 1st S 1h30!!!!! YAY... I think we are on the right track now. Still unsure abt bedtime. hmmm
hope your day will be good!
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I think we should just try to keep to 3hrs A and see how that affects him before trying to fingure out the final A as well.
So pleased for the good first nap!!
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Yeah especially since he stirred at 45mins and we ignored, and he went back to sleep. 2nd A 3h40mins. My bad.. S 1h10 and he stirred at 30mins and at 45mins. Both times ignored and back to sleep. So it's OT. At least i learned something hehe
13:50 A... just don't think he can get out of OT if there's no more nap inbetween but the CN yesterday, I think caused the EW... we seem to be stuck in this vicious circle... How to get out?
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I THINK I can finally give an update!
4:30 wake up A 3h
7:30 S 1h30
9:00 A 3h40
12:40 S 1h10 (stirring at 30 and 45mins, I need to put him down 10 mins earlier.)
13:50 A 5h25 :'(
19:15 S
We took him for a walk in the pram hoping to get a CN in, after 1h, he just wouldn't sleep. Got home to give him dinner at 5:15, ate alright, but rubbing eyes, etc... so decided just to put him to bed after we bathe him. Almost fell asleep from his last bottle, put him in his bed, the usual bedtime routine, at 18:10!!! We just want to get sleep in him and he didn't look like he could last 5 more mins. He just couldn't settle to sleep!!! Cried a lot. We haven't had to interfere with his night sleep for weeks now. I gave homeopathic drops in case it's teething because his bottle does look very red from the morning. Still cried a lot. PU/PD didn't help. Finally he calmed down and I could sneak out of his room.
He closed eyes probably at 19:10 and then jolted and cried. I didn't go in. Then silence.
DH is already in bed. Utterly exhausted and prepared for tomorrow in case 3:30 or 4 wake up!!
Is there a way out?!
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OT loops end - they ALWAYS do. He was just so OT that it took him ages to settle.
Aim for the same tomorrow - 3hrs A all the way through. We need to get rid of that ridiculously long awake time before bed.
You won't need a CN if you get 2 decent naps on 3 hrs A - but to get out of this OT lopp and set a sensible bedtime it would be great to squeeze one in.
So something like
Wake up 5am
Nap 1 8am awake 9.30ish
Nap 2 12.30 - 2-2.30ish
CN 4.40pm for 40 mins
Bedtime 7pm
If we can squeeze a CN in for a day or so and your lo handles 3hrs A it will soon be gone.
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Thank you Liz! It's good to hear it from you that it will end. When I was doing PU/PD, DS was crying so hard like he just would never settle.
The CN is hard to get in. We failed today. I also think that if the CN is too close to bedtime, it affects the night sleep but I just can't get it in earlier.
But then tomorrow is another day. Thanks so much for your time. I'll keep my heads up! And your day??
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My lo refused his pm nap again, and went to bed OT again, so it is likely and EW for me too.
PU/PD can be tough when they are OT. I often just cuddle and use shh/ptt - anything to get him down as peacefully as possible. But J is totally independent to sleep so I don't worry about that as much as others.
Just stick to 3hrs tomorrow.
Perhaps AP the CN?
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Good tip about the cuddle and shh/pat.. I think I ended up doing something similar. I dangled my arm down to the bed and told him it's bed time. But I couldn't make eye contact. Gradually he calmed down a bit, sometimes holding onto my hand or arm. I could sneak out at one point and went back in when he started crying again. But then he's already ready to lay down.
I honestly don't know how to AP to sleep. He only sleeps in his bed. Taking a walk is not a guarantee these days. Perhaps we'll try a car ride tomorrow if we are desperate. I'm more confident to get a CN in around A3h, any earlier will be just a lot of wasted effort :( Or like u said, just keep doing it until we get 2 good naps. Would shortening CN be useful if I can't get it earlier? Like to make sure it's no more than 15 mins?!?! It feels so cruel... :(
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My lo is the same - will only go to sleep after his normal A. Some babies will only sleep when properly tired.
But you would be suprised how little A your lo will handle after a 30 min CN - remembering they did the full A before. So you could try a 30 min CN and then then asleep 1h 30 later.
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Yeah I noticed it. 30mins after the CN yesterday, LO rubbing eyes, pulling ears at dinner :-\
At least now I get to understand LO's needs and how he responds to UT, OT, etc. I'm sure there will be many more times of EWs in the future. Better know now than later.
Hope we all get a slightly later EW tomorrow. big hugzz and good night!
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WOW... 6:15 wake up!!! Hooray!!! stirred at 4:15 again. Ignored and went back to sleep. :)
3h A day it is.
Good luck to your day and enjoy your bank holiday! :)
ADD:
sigh... 1st nap only 45mins. UT probably :( A 3h05 detective story continues :P
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detective story continues :P
Yeah - it is a bit of a game in many respects - finding that magic number!!
So pleased you got some sleep though.
We need to stick to roughly the same plan for a few days more though!
I got a 5am EW >:(. Honestly - it is as though Jacob knows I have to work all week ::).
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big hugzzz for you! Perhaps J wants some extra cuddles to get through this transition. Hopefully it will be over for both of us soon. Tank up on sleep for the next round :P
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Naps were total crap today. I feel defeated... but trying to keep my heads up still.
6:15 wake up A 3h05
9:20 S 45mins
10:05 A 3h30
13:35 S 35mins (he was crying but it sounded like he could go back to sleep but DH just picked him up!!!)
14:10 A 2h10
16:20 S 45mins (did manage to get a CN in)
17:05 A 2h30
19:35 S (took 20mins to get him to sleep, though, at least no drama like last night!)
We're prepared for EW!!! Is your day better?
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Stick to 3hrs - don't be temptedd to go higher yet especially after a short nap ;) :).
Our day was OK - got a 1h 15 am nap (DH made too much noise and woke him) but then he slept for 1h 45 this afternoon. Did only a 3hr A after that until bedtime which might be a bit short - but you have to catch up the OT somehow ;).
I'm working tomorrow (boo!!) but will catch up with you in the evening.
Happy sleeping to your little man.
Oh - and tell DH to give him chance to resettle - independent sleep is a gift :) :)
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YAY for naps and boo for work :P
You don't want to know how many times I've told DH, but since he's getting up early and he's really trying. I kept telling myself not to get frustrated. And he even offered to take DS out for the nap inducing walk so I could lie down to rest my back. So... I think he got the message until he forgets it again, of course!! I'll make him do the dishes tonight hehe he got 11.5 hrs sleep last night!!! Some people are just lucky and can sleep!!!
Sleepy vibes to you all, too!!
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LOL - I used to hear my DH creaking the floorboards upstairs as he was rocking DS to sleep - and he always used to SWEAR he didn't ;D.
It is good that your DH is so involved though - I think I kind of 'took over' too much and now DS settles much faster for me.
Nevermind - you live and learn :) :).
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Funny you mentioned about creaky floor noises!!! I had to ASK DH to not run up/downstairs, because I just spent 30mins or an hour to put DS to sleep and the noises woke him up!!! Or it could be that he got a work call, and talked on top of his voice, u know some people just do that. So now he closes the door when he does the TALKING!
I was doing most of it really until I started seeing stars and DH thought I was exaggerating. I think I really didn't look good one day (damn this lack of sleep, I look bad everyday anyway :P) so that's when he "woke up". You don't wanna know what he said to me before when I asked him to give me more help. Especially since I was exclusively pumping because of DH's wishes!!
I am learning to let go... forgive and forget :P
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Good evening!
Today we had to run errands and kind of sick of feeling stuck at home trying to sort out this mystery. So we just did whatever! But turned out not too bad. (Perhaps I have been toooooo over conscientious or overreacting ... just all the over----)
Today: S 10h last night
5:35 wake up A 2h45
8:20 S 55mins (#2 again)
9:15 A 3h05 (CN in pram)
12:20 S 30mins
12:55 A 2h45
15:40 S 1h15 (woken up by the door!!! but cried himself to sleep very quickly)
16:55 A 2h05
19:00 S
If we have DS in the pram all day, I think he would just take a CN of 30 mins every 3 hrs. Perhaps it's not so bad in the future to iron out some OT :P what do u think?
We've just decided to take a week of vacation so that I can attend my grandma's funeral in HK. So, it's almost pointless to work on the EW now. But we'll try and keep A time as close to 3h as possible. In the past, DS adapted very well to time zone changes. I have to start planning packing list, etc.
Thanks so much for your help all along. It's very reassuring and thanks for holding my hand. I might not be able to come online. We will leave in 2 days. Today DS ate super well at IKEA. I was amazed that the distraction with so many people around gave him great appetite!
How's your LO doing? I wonder how moms keep track of EASY when LOs are at child care. That's a totally different topic altogether.
hugzzz
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Sorry to hear about your Grandma :(.
When you are away from home you will just need to 'go with the flow' a bit. But at least you now know that his A time is roughly 3hrs.
There is nothing rong with having a day out and about. There are things we all need to do, and we need to maintain our sanity :). I using try and have a home day after an out and about day to keep my routine intact ;).
I will be here for you when you get back :).
Regarding daycare - my mum looks after my DS and she is more than happy to 'whisperer' for me. So I am very lucky :).
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Hey Liz,
Just a quick hi. Yesterday was super stressed day for packing, sleepless night, etc. Our whole little family was a bit under the weather, including LO. But... he had 1 ok nap and 1 good nap, though both times cried a lot to fall back asleep. AND.. he slept from 7:20pm - 6:50am. 11h30. I think the sleep deprivation was catching up with him all day and he wasn't hyper as we didn't have the time and energy to play with him except holding him quietly.
But we'll be leaving soon. Just finally we got something...
I just have a thought, perhaps it might help other mothers, too. For DS, he loves sitting in the pram, looking around, watching things and people passing by. He wouldn't be over stimulated. Perhaps it would be a good way to observe his natural A times because when he's tired, he just falls asleep. I understand those some LOs just hate the pram, or sitting too long. Just a thought.
Have a great week. I'm sure I will have online time.
big hugzzz for you and wishing your LO back on track soon.
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Hi Koe :)
Hope all goes well in the UK.
That was a super night sleep for your lo :).
Let me know how things are going when you are settling back into your routines again.
Huge ((hugs)) for next week.
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Hi LizJ
We're back. It was emotional but we're all glad that we could be there. LO brought so much joy to everyone.
We flew during day time for 11hrs and arrived 2am time at home, of coz LO was XTO (extreme OT :P) and we had to do a lot of AP to get him to sleep. Also we're staying with my family, we didn't want LO crying to wake up everyone. Last night, the first night back at LO's own bed at home, we couldn't settle him. He was just crying his lungs out! So we AP'ed again, so LO and I didn't get good sleep. :(
Finally after 3hr 1st A, LO went down for his nap very quietly in his own bed and we thought, that was easy!! But then he woke after 30 mins. Crying his lungs out again for a good 20-30 mins. :( Took almost 50 mins to get him to settle enough to lay down himself. His eyes were all swollen and he had to cough so much from crying :( :( He's kind of sleeping finally. It's tough to listen to your own child crying that bad for so long.
I read on another post that you're still dealing with EW! Hugzzzzz. I still couldn't sleep but DH could, so he can help. But he needs to start another project, so... The AP was just tough. We held LO to sleep sometimes, or had him in our bed.
While we were away, the first 2 nights were great. LO slept 11.5 and 12 hrs respectively and the rest of the stay was 10 - 10.5 hrs. Some days he refused second nap altogether, so OT sleep and short night sleep. I guess next trip we need to plan some days back at home to sort routine out.
Whoops long-winded post as usual :P
hugzzzzz
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Glad to hear you are all doing OK, and huge ((hugs)). I'm glad you mamanged to be there to say goodbye properly.
I would drop your A times for a few days and see how it goes.
There are some good posts on the getting back on track forum about holidays and international plane travel.
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LO slept almost 11h last night. He's really not showing tired cues these days unless we assumed he is and start winding down! His mantra cries, I discovered, have become hysteric. Probably due to XOT. It's hard to just listen to all that screaming/crying. I let him be and he started and stopped. Phew...
LO lost quite a bit of weight but got much taller!!! :D
some hugz for you and your LO
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Yes - I get a lot of SCREAMING if J gets REALLY OT. I think you do have to hang back a little and just give them the space to settle and calm themselves to sleep.
I had a phase like that with J as well - no tired signs until I started winddown and was putting him in his sleeping bag. Then is was all rubbing eyes and VERY tired all of a sudden. I think when they get busier and are mobile and exploring they don't notice they are tired until it is WAY too late.
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Hey Liz
I'm so exhausted that i couldn't even type out the latest routine. BUT... it just hit me today that DS must be way more spirited than I thought!!!! Spirited textbook, rather than TS!!!!!!!!!! *DOH*
His screaming must be to do with OS!!!!!!! I just wonder what might be a good loooooooong wind down routine?! Our night bedtime routine is pretty good. DS is now 9months and it's just so hard to look at the books for longer than 2 mins :P DS would just fuss, arch his back. Or should I start a new post and which board should I post in? I did a search but couldn't find anything relevant.
in short... today was 5:30am 3 x 30mins naps with screaming, then grandma's 70th b'day party (so we had to be there) and we didn't get home till 8:30pm (45min drive and only dropped off 5 mins before we stopped the engine!!!!) A times were too long either so I was just sooo helpless. I felt so useless.
Have a great sunday!
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((hugs)) Koe.
Hang in there - you will get back on track soon.
Have you checked out the spirited supporth thread at the top of the page? Couple of mummies (inc me!) talking about winddown routine and napping with their spirited los - might help?
If you want some advice about activity and entertaining I would try the Activity Board. I suspect some of his fussing is OT though.
Sorry for late reply - I had to do the weekend shift!!
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Liz, thanks for the hugz and reply.
I really hope so. Just so tired and don't even have the energy to take DS out for a walk...
I will check on the support thread, but it's just so long, i need to have some more energy and sleep before doing it.
I want to show u the routine of the day before we left (he had 11.5h sleep). I want to see what you think of them
2/Sep (the day before we had to fly so I didn't care anymore what time DS might wake)
5:35 wake up A 3h05
8:40 S 1h05
9:45 A 3h15
13:00 S 1h45
14:45 A 4h35
19:20 S 11h30
I was sooo surprised that with that long last A, he slept longer. I thought he would be OT. He had 2 good naps! I just wonder if i should use this as a ref to work towards. But if so, hopefully wake up time will be later, then how can I always manage a long last A without putting him bed later and later?! DS is now 20 days older, perhaps need even more A time?! What do you think?
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I would use that as a starting point. 20 days is not that long and with OT on board I doubt he needs the A's pushing much.
Does look like he prefers a long A to bed doesn't it? A lot of los are like that.
The stuff about spirited sleep is on the last page or so - no need to read it all :).
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oh dear.. keep having problems with posting. i lost my original post :(
anyway.. just tell me one more time, to let DS scream till he resettles himself? it's just toooooo heart wrenching. he went down to sleep very nice and calm at 7:25 tonight. Just now at 9:45, screamed his lungs out. I went in to check if all was ok. It was, so i sat there again (don't ask my why i did it again). Of course, he couldn't really fall asleep because he would look up, get back up, scream all over again :'( just too hard. what shall i do?!
i tried 2h A time, following his tired cues, still couldn't get more than 30 mins 1st nap.
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No you don't let him scream until he resettles.
If this happens to us I go in and pick him up and calm him down, and then put him straight back in. I often walk out then as his cries are mantra. If they are 'mummy I need you cries' you should stay in the room - even in a chair where he can't see you but can only hear you reassuring him if that works better. If they are mantra cries then leave him to self settle. If you interfere with a mantra you actually disrupt the settling process.
Lately I have found sitting next to the crib in the dark with my hand on the mattress is better as he can hold my hand if he wants (but I remove it when he is calm and falling asleep) or he can ignore me but he knows I am there.
Can you recognise your los mantra cry?
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To be honest, I don't think I can tell anymore. I get so confused. I often end up in tears myself. But I read your reply this morning and realised that probably I let him cry/scream too much on his own since HK. Because my presence seems to keep him from falling asleep. I did what you do, too. I didn't say anything, just laid my hand down and he could hold when he wanted to. But when he was settling to sleep, he would look up to check if i was there, started moving, holding onto my arms and wouldn't settle anymore. What would you do at this stage?
What I did was, to say to him, it's sleepy time now, see you when you wake up. Then I got up and left him. He would start screaming again but within a minute, he would calm down and settle and drift off. Was it letting him cry? There were times also after we're back, in the middle of his nap, he just woke and screamed in a rythmic way and 2-4 mins, he resettled to sleep. So I started getting confused as to what i should be doing. 2 nights ago, he woke at 23:15 and I went to him right away. It's like the episode in the paragraph above, so I had to leave him. Then he went back to sleep within 10 mins.
just now for his 1st nap. He started something like his usual old mantra, not really crying. Then he went quiet. half a minute later, he started with louder cry, and then kind of his old mantra. there were about 3, 4 rounds of this and he suddenly started again and cried and then screamed all within 5 secs and I went in. (This is after reading your reply.) Held him and he was so tired, he wanted to fall asleep in my arms but then he started arching (so i remember Tracy said no fighting.) so I laid him down. It's just one big fit in the bed. Pushing with legs, arching, etc. in the end, PD worked again. The whole process, from the moment I put him in his bed till he fell asleep was 55mins. :'(
Do you have I have breached his trust already?! oh.. yesterday:
6:20 am wake up A 2h25
8:45 S 45mins (first time since 20 days no crying when he woke)
9:30 A 3h
12:30 S 40 mins (crying)
13:08 A 3h50
17:00 S (we coaxed some AP sleep in DS) 1h15
18:15 A 1h20
19:35 S 12h
YEAH, he woke at 7:40 this morning!! But this morning he's not his usual happy self. Cranky, so we tried to follow his tired cues and put him to bed at 10 but in the end, he finally slept at almost 11am.
I also removed the night light in his room since 2 nights ago and perhaps that caused the night screaming? but perhaps it helps with the morning wakings to resettle himself. The last mornings, he probably out of habit, screamed at 5:35. This morning, he only turned and made tiny sounds and went back to sleep.
I keep waking at 5. HW for sure... :( Not sure how to get out of it yet... I started reading the BW for Toddler. I redid the questionaire and DS is still textbook with a bit of spiritedness. So confused.
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If he is screaming for 1-2 mins and then self settling then it is not CIO. That is his mantra cry. That is why it takes much longer if you go to him. He is not crying for you if he can put himself too sleep in a few mins without you. It is NORMAL for babies to cry sometimes before they go to sleep. It is also normal for them to sometimes wake and cry out for a few when they transition sleep cycles - especially if a bit OT.
The thing is a mantra cry is a type of cry. It is not really soft fussy settling noises. That is the mistake I made with J was well. I thought for ages I knew what his mantra was, but I didn't :(.
I would always hang back for a few and see if it is escalating or not. Give him time. If the crying is stop start stop start I would hang back as well as he is trying to self settle.
So no I don't think you have breached his trust. I think he is just getting older and you are no longer able to 'put' him straight to sleep anymore, and that means there will be a bit more crying.
I have found J better at resettling with a nightlight since he got older. More likely to manage by himself.
((hugs)) Koe - you will find that groove again soon.
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Hi koe2moe,
I knew you had a thread here too so I figured I'd read along as it has your routines and details, maybe more helpful than a separate thread in GS. I have skimmed the last 2 pages so apologies if anything I say repeats something from earlier in your thread.
Regarding the crying, I agree with Liz too and don't think you let him CIO. If the crying is escalating then I would go in, but if it is dying off or stopping/starting then I would give it some time.
Dylan does something very similar to your lo. In fact, often at the 40 min mark with some of his naps, he will scream in the most screeching, piercing way, the kind of cry that makes you bolt into his room. It last one minute, and he's out again. I was bolting into his room every time and grabbing him (and he'd be startled and then crying when I got him up). Then one day I was covered in POO and dealing with Luke who was up on the changing table, and I literally could not go into Dylan's room. Frantically washing myself and Luke, the piercing scremas were over in 1 min, followed by 1 min of mantra, and then another hour of sleep. He has since done that for at least one nap a day. His day care has even remarked to me that he has a crazy piercing cry during sleep, but they asked if it was ok to not get him right away as they think this is his way of resettling. I have never noticed it happen at night though so if it did I would go in right away, it just seems to be his unique pattern for naps at the moment. HTH a little??
For that wake up time - and since I know you are recovering from jet lag - maybe it's a good idea to control the wake up time. In other words, make a realistic wake up time (6.30? 7?) for every day and wake him if he is not up then. It used to pain me to do this but it really does seem to help with the body clock. We always do it when getting over jet lag especially.
Hugs - you will get there!!!
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Liz and Jess
Thanks for the reassurance! It helps a lot to know that I haven't breached the trust and screaming can be normal. It was true that out of all those times I let him scream/cry, he ended up sleeping. I should hang back a little, just in case. I guess one, two minutes of crying isn't all that bad. It just hurts at the time.
This morning DS woke at 7:10am, though naps were bad. 1 x 1h and 1x 30mins. DH also reminded me to relax and try to have more fun and laugh more. It's been tough for DH, too.
Thanks for your time and hugs. I'm determined to RELAX! :P
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Koe - if 1-3 mins of crying settles him straight off to sleep it is a mantra cry - and is SOOOO much better than 45 mins of screaming with you in the room.
Relaxing is a GOOD plan - and sometimes with a relaxed approach a LO will actually start to give away some trade secrets and form a bit of their own pattern ;).
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What about 10 mins? One time I let him scream, 10 mins.. back to sleep???
Actually you are right or perhaps like Jess said in the getting back on track thread. DS seems to want to transition to 1 nap!!!!!!!!!!! Oh man... He went on for 1st A past 3 h and really was playing nicely. The new *relaxed* me told me to watch him closely. He only started to lose a bit of coordination at 3h45, so I started winding down. He only slept 45 mins, though. Coaxing got 10 more mins in him and 20 mins of low down time. Then he went down for a nap because he totally lost it but it was very late, 5:45 - 6:30. Wouldn't eat dinner, big bottle before bed, slept very quietly from 7:40. We'll see what happens tomorrow.
I saw your thread.... i know OT monster is horrid but then EW is worse :P We're going to stick with 7:30 bed time.. at least one thing is fixed for DS. I think changing everyday isn't good. But of coz, every baby is different.
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I let DS cry 10 mins. He went silent for 2 mins and then started again and escalated. 30min nap! EW @ 5:18 this morning.
So officially EW monster is back but is it for the 2-1 transition, I'm not sure as we had 3 x 30mins naps today :'( DS was cranky all morning, all day until after the third nap, he's happy! Eating way more than normal??? Can there be GS at 9-10mos?! He's teething also, he let drool just run down his chin nonstop!
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10 mins of mantra crying is not CIO - don't worry :).
TBH I would try and stretch the A's and stick to 2 naps. 3 naps tends not to help at this age.
And YES there is a 9 month GS!!
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thanks!!! and phew!!! especially about NOT CIO :P
oh my... i tried to search for GS and couldn't find anything relevant! How many more of such GS are there? DS was very very upset while I was preparing lunch. I thought it's coz I left him in the playpen. Until I saw how he gulped down his food, I realised it was HUNGER!!
The 3 naps were just because he was dead tired and could only sleep 30 mins. 1st A was only 2 h and he went down very well but woke at 30mins grrr...
As I said I'm trying to *relax* but with 5:18 wake up.... instead of forcing him to nap, i wait for his cues. I thought with such early waking and now knowing that he CAN sleep 12h, he couldn't handle long A. He kept falling on hard surfaces whole day and kept crying. He's just tired. Poor thing.
I still hold onto your slogan :P tomorrow is another day
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Updates of the last 2 days...
27 Sep
5:50 wake up A 3h40 (19:30 sleep so 10h20)
9:30 S 2h (APOP sleeping with DH)
11:30 A 3h30
15:00 S 1h (sleep in pram - this is the third time ever he sleeps more than 30mins in pram)
16:00 A 3h45
19:45 S 9h25
28 Sep
5:18 wake up A 1h12 (he was so tired, we took him to our bed but he got hungry so we gave him bottle and he settled right away and fell asleep)
6:20 E bottle
6:30 S 1h40
8:10 A 3h40
11:50 S 25mins (cried and screamed, took ages to fall asleep and then started crying probably at 20 or 25mins)
12:15 A 3h25
15:40 S 20mins (cried and screamed and almost couldn't wake up from it when I stepped in.)
16:00 A 3h30
19:30 S
I just wonder what 20 or 25 mins naps mean??? he cried and screamed so hard. AP could be a reason when we kept having him in our bed but last days he didn't cry when we put him down to nap in his own bed. He does seem much more hungry than normal and I tried and tried to get him to eat more. Not sure if it's enough extra.
I'm honestly not sure what to do. DH just keeps telling me not to try too hard about naps as DS is crying nuts and i end up crying... Sleeping pills aren't helping with my sleep...
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Where about do you think he is with his "normal" A times right now?
Do you think 3h30m is the right A time for him? Or 3h45? Have you read any of the links about sleep going wonky around this age? I'll look back a few pages. And I'll post them if they haven't been posted already.
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After looking back at you posts I'm going to wait on that link.
I just browsed kind of quickly and I think I noticed a pattern.
Your son seems to either have really good nights and then wonky naps, or a wonky night and good naps. Does this seem true?
Do you know what his sleep total for a day is. For us it was around 13 hours for a very very long time. But it took me a long time to realize that. Maybe take a few days or a week and add up the night time sleep and the day time sleep and see what your average total is?
That might help you figure out what is going one.
Just a thought :)
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Hey Sherry Lynn
I honestly haven't got a clue or I've been too tired to be able to think. But I did take a look at when he's started having EW. Perhaps I've been looking at the wrong things. It's from when DS refused to take DF back around 6.5 or almost 7mo, and of course of starting solids and not much intake. When he was taking DF, he would sleep pretty much from 7:30pm till 7 or 7:30am. DF usually done in his sleep. Does that count as STTN? He did however have dummy as prop and we weaned it off 7.5mo. Then he slept from 7:30 till 5:30-6. With almost no NWs. Is it possible that DS is only ready to sleep 10 or 10.5 h? But there were a few nights he slept through to past 7am, but perhaps coz it was super late nights.
A times. Please see the following quote
2/Sep (the day before we had to fly so I didn't care anymore what time DS might wake)
5:35 wake up A 3h05
8:40 S 1h05
9:45 A 3h15
13:00 S 1h45
14:45 A 4h35
19:20 S 11h30
I was sooo surprised that with that long last A, he slept longer. I thought he would be OT. He had 2 good naps! I just wonder if i should use this as a ref to work towards. But if so, hopefully wake up time will be later, then how can I always manage a long last A without putting him bed later and later?! DS is now 20 days older, perhaps need even more A time?! What do you think?
But I got the feeling that he needs longer A already. Just gut instinct. Tomorrow DH and I have decided no more bringing DS to bed. When he wakes at 5, then start the day at 5 and start getting things straight.
Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks
(Adding this as you just added another post, thanks.) I'll add up the total sleep over a period to see. It's mostly true about naps and night sleep but it does seem to have good days with good naps and good night sleep. See the quote. He usually has bad naps and bad night sleep. I'm v tired now and can't really look at the screen. I'll sleep on that thought. Thanks for checking :)
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koe2moe - I think that is a great plan. It will be really good to figure out if you have a prop problem in the morning regarding the EW.
Try not to stress yourself out too much. I hope you get a good nights sleep.
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DS woke at 6am!! YAY!! DH got him up to start the day. 1st A 3h but he's been banging his cot for 10mins, though not crying. See if he will take his nap.
From the good day I quoted to show you, he seems to be able to sleep quite long. 2h50 day and 11h30 night. 14h20 total. But on average, he's mostly getting 2h day sleep and 10 - 10h30 night sleep.
I did get some sleep because the sleeping pill worked. DH let me sleep in also.
As for the plan, we'll probably try not to coax a CN even when DS gets crappy naps. Just really no idea what to do really.
ADD: refused the am nap but not crying, just wide awake. Took him out for a walk and napped 30mins in the pram at 1st A 5h! Quite happy self. We'll see the rest of the day.
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I was suggesting to take an average because sometimes my DS will have a super awesome sleep day - all try to replicate that and it doesn't work. The reason is (I think) is that he only does this every so often to catch up on some really cruddy days. Does that make sense?
I hope he takes a good PM nap for you.
I will post that link after the morning you've had :)
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=41952.0
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Thanks for those links. I will read them through.
PM nap?! What pm nap? :( 1x25mins nap in his cot and 1x25mins in the pram :(
today:
6:10 wake up A 5h!!!
9:10 (failed attempt to nap PU/PD nothing worked)
11:05 S 30mins!!
11:35 A 3h30
14:35 S 25mins
15:00 A 2h15
17:15 S 25mins
17:40 A 2h05
19:45 S
The morning period DS wasn't playing nice at all. After the failed nap, he was actually quite happy and playing nice and even listened to my "no touching curtains" and let go and looked at me!
It's true that those good sleep nights might be just catching up big time. I'll try and get some averages.
Perhaps tomorrow we'll try aiming 1st A around 3h30 to 4h. But if he refused to nap, then just get on with it. It's really tricky because he was showing tired cues! I also reread the section about sleep between 9months to 1 yr. It's nice to know that it might not be caused by us. Just this time it's lots of changes in LOs.
Hope you have a good day!
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Yeah - I think that first A of 3hrs is too short and he fought it as he was UT but by the time he got around to taking it he was OT already, and the rest of the day followed on from there.
I have often been thrown by a good nights sleep - if they have slept really well they really are the days the A needs stretching.
I think 3h 30 sounds like a good plan.
J gives no real tired signs anymore TBH - and those he does have are very misleading and mixed up with frustration and boredom.
Some kids just have a TERRIBLE time with the 2-1 I think, and those that are prone to OT napping, and EWs are often those babies.
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It's not you at all. It just can really be a tricky time. I had plenty of tricky days like those around that age. Except there was no way I would have been able to get a 3rd nap out of him at that point. Even with APing. Just be really cautious about continuing to offer a 3rd nap at his age. I found that if for some reason he did have a 3rd nap after about 9 months it lead to EW.
The only other thing I have to suggest to to remember to decrease the A time after a 30 min nap. 3h30m is way too long after a 30 min OT nap.
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LizJ thanks so much. I also think he screams the hardest when he's UT which was what I discovered just a few days ago. Boredom causes yawns here, too!! Actually... whenever DS eats, he's showing tonnes of tired cues!!! Is that common??
Sherry Lynn, thanks. It's great to know that. 3rd nap today was just him falling asleep during my errands :P I was worried but then he had no sleep almost at all today. I was worried that it was so late and so close to bedtime. It was actually A 3h :P not 3h30 coz I couldn't even do simple arithmetic anymore :'( :P I was aiming at 2h30 but then it took him forever to settle down. sigh...
tomorrow is YET another day.. time to sleep
good day and night to both of you
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I hope you get another good nights sleep. At about this age, maybe 12 months. I stopped counting how long it took him to fall asleep. I just put him down at the usual A time and let him work out what ever was going to happen. It helped with the "control issues" KWIM? You can only do so much. He has to do the rest :)
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The usual 5:30am cries! But he was still crying when I picked him up, so gave him his bottle and then put him back to bed. He was whining, crying on and off. I didn't dare go to him. After half an hour, he's back to sleep. I guess it was correct not to interfere. He just woke up after 1 sleep cycle at 7:10am. It's pretty good start. I tried so hard to get more food in him already. He's eating so much that I can see his tummy sticking way out.
One thing I'm not sure (on top of everything else that I'm not sure of) is that do I add a whole bottle amount to the day's intake?! Coz usually I just gave the bottle, so it's like an earlier feed but during the day he takes more solids. He's gaining weight by the hour! Can this be the reason why he couldn't sleep longer because the food just doesn't last till 7am? :P
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how long ago did you drop the DF?
I think usually you just add a few oz to each bottle to see if that will get him through. If he's eating that much it's hard to imagine that he is really waking from hunger :-\ But I'll let Liz comment more on that, cuz I'm not really sure.
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He refused DF from 7mo. He's already eaten half a banana and 80-100g solids more so far today compared with yesterday. Will give a bigger bottle after his *Ahem* nap, bigger dinner and bigger bottle before bed to see if he can sleep just a bit longer than 5:30.
Would you have any idea what 15-20mins nap means?
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Question: When you put down the A time, are you putting down the time that you put him into the crib, or the time that he falls asleep? I ask because I've heard people both experience a 20 min nap when UT and OT. When they are super young it usually means OT or trouble transitioning in the sleep cycle. When they are older is when it gets trickier.
Sounds like he's doing well on the food today. Good luck for the naps.
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I put down the time I think he's asleep. It's pretty much the time when he went quiet after crying hard and no more jolting back to sleep. Perhaps those jolting back should be counted towards sleep phases? But today it was ridiculously short. Like 10 or 15mins only nap!
naps: 1x 10-15mins and 1x45mins. Should have put him on early bedtime but DH disagreed as he's really scared of 4:30 wake up. We almost never have problems putting DS to sleep in the night but tonight was bad. We were aiming at 7pm and when he's asleep it's 7:30pm. So just the usual bedtime.
The good thing is I got some new understanding on his cries. There was a bit of "mama i want you here now" cry at the beginning (i did go in and realised that i was disturbing him, so i stepped out again and he started again). Very soon, like a minute or two, he calmed down and started real settling noises.
Dinner wasn't great as he was just super tired. We'll see. Probably will wake around 5:30. Hopefully not earlier.
Just for the record, here's today:
5:30 A (hunger)
6:18 S 50mins (took him a long time to settle down but I stayed away)
7:10 A 3h10
10:20 S 10mins? 15mins? (he was crying a lot and I didn't go in)
10:30 A 3h15
13:45 S 45mins (very tired and crying, just couldn't get him to calm down again to sleep)
14:30 A 5h (way too long but DH really didn't want to put him down for 6:30 bedtime but he agrees to let me try next time in the similar circumstances, like no nap all day)
19:30 S (took 30 mins to get him to sleep)
Thanks again
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I don't think hunger causes the EW - the OT does that - but if they wake that close to the morning they are often too peckish to go back to sleep without food.
I also think tea time and the bedtime bottle have the biggest impact on hunger in the morning.
J took until 11.5 mths to eat enough to sleep beyond 5am (due to his reflux) but the wake up for hunger was different to an OT EW. He would wake, stand and cry until he got food. OT wake ups are a bit of fussing, a bit of playing and then crying to get out of bed. He often doesn't go to sleep after a bottle these times.
TBH if your lo eats well I doubt it is true hunger at this age - it is only really if they have a reason for not eating that this happens.
There is a 9 mth growth spurt though.
I thin you need to push that first A back to 3.5hrs and see what happens. I'm pretty sure the A is too low so he just will not sleep.
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I agree with Liz. I think he is starting out UT, so takes a short nap, and then gets OT.
After a 10-20 min nap the max A time for most LO is 2 hours. This was the case for Lyle at about 13-15months. So at 9 months I would guess even less.
So tomorrow I would increase the A time by 10 more min. Try that for 3 days, then increase it by 10 more to make it to 3h30m.
If you feel as his mom that he's ready to jump back up to 3h30m then just do it in one go. But if he wakes at 5:30 tomorrow than that might be hard to make. Just try to keep his A time at then end really low key, no electronic toys/tv, etc.
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Thanks both of you! Dang... I didn't get a chance to check this before I put DS down for his 1st nap. He's been very tired since 2h A. I kept the entire A time low key and he was just yawning massively. I just put him down, so by the time he falls asleep it would be 3h A.
Like I expected, it was bad last night. He woke up around 23:15, so definitely OT sleep, but this time only took 30mins to fall back to sleep. PD calmed him down and I just sat next to the cot. He fell asleep himself. :D At least one thing I could do.
I also think he needs 3.5h 1st A but with this massive OT, I'll try from tomorrow. At least he's not crying now.
Liz, he was not fussing at all, just plain WAAAAHHHHH when he wakes night, morning or from naps. No fussing, nor playing at all. Yesterday morning, he was crying hard even after I picked him up. So I thought it was hunger and it was. This morning, when I went to him, sat by his cot, he was already cheerful. But when I was making his bottle, he couldn't help it but kept crying. He was hungry! haha
I now understand the idea of early bedtime, instead of coaxing a CN in the late evening. I got DH to promise not to interfere with this one.
I'll also make sure we have dinner early so DS can have a full meal.
Thanks again. You both gave me more confidence to tackle this one.
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Liz it's probably too late to give you this advice too, but just remember if he takes a short nap, that's ok, it's not the end of the world. Just put him down a little earlier for the next nap. He can't do a full 3.5 A time on a short nap. Try for 3 hours instead and see how he does.
He might still wake early if you put him to bed early. Some LO do that, like mine. However..... he does tend to make up at least a little bit of sleep. And.... he wakes way more restful the next morning. I got to the point where I figured it was better to have a rested baby with and EW, then to have a cranky OT baby with an EW :) That is especially true if you are trying to figure out A times.
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It just seems so inconsistent! We've tried all kinds of A times, DS no matter what, just wouldn't nap! Starting from last night, putting down for bed, then woke at 23:15, I didn't think it was mantra, coz he was getting louder and more desperate and tonight at bedtime also. He hasn't needed help with night sleep for a very long time. I ended up sitting by the cot, head resting on the side of the cot, so as not to make eye contact. But he kept looking up to see if i was there. I guess I'm becoming a prop!!!
I know I should take care of myself, but with no sleep and having to take care of DS, I just don't know what to do. I put him down 15 mins earlier this evening and he ended up sleeping at 8, instead of 7:30.
Today:
5:42 wake up A 3h
8:45 S 30mins
9:15 A 3h 20 (aimed at 3h but took him ages again)
12:40 S 50mins (he was crying but I didn't have to go in, cried at 30mins and went back to sleep)
13:30 A 2h45
16:15 S 45mins (fell asleep in the pram)
17:00 A 3h
20:00 S he might wake again crying at 23:00...
I think if we didn't let him do the CN, he definitely wouldn't last till even 6pm. He was very tired. I did try to extend nap for both naps. He's definitely very tired from yesterday. Eating wasn't good at lunch/dinner. Just too tired probably.
I totally agree, cranky baby is just not nice, can't play nice, it's worse! Should I insist on extending 1st A to the target time or should I follow his cues?!?! Last 2 days I was following his cues and they were around 2h and then he screamed and just wouldn't sleep. I kept him low key almost 20mins before putting him down for naps, and perhaps he's not physically tired enough?!
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koe2moe - I'm speaking completely from experience and hindsight here. If you keep going by his cues and putting him down early you're going to keep getting that 30 min nap. You don't have to go straight to 3h30 min right away, you can try 3h15 first. Also, at least for me, when I say that much A time, I'm talking about that's when to put him into bed, not when to try to have him asleep. I wanted to clarify that.
Tomorrow if he takes a 30 min first nap. Try putting him in the crib at 2h30m or 2h45m. 3 hour may have been too much.
It might be the case that he only wants to take a small first nap. Some LO are like that, and in fact some routines by other "routine experts" recommend only doing a small first nap, so its not the end of the world if he keeps taking a small first nap.
However, we really need to figure out what the A time is for him either way. Either to get 2 long nap in, or to get a small but refreshed nap and a nice long afternoon nap. Did you see what I posted to londonmommy? I told her how I beat the EW at 9 months. You were following along on that thread. If not I'll post it here for you, just let me know.
The fact that it is taking him ages to go to sleep for that first nap makes me think he is UT. I know he's OT on the second nap and taking ages also. But he was doing the same thing on lower A times, so that makes me think we haven't gone far enough.
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Sherry Lynn
Thanks again. I misunderstood to have him asleep at 3h30. Today, we were out all day and he did fall asleep at 3h30 in the pram. I guess that's the A time he needs for 1st nap and it was 55mins in the pram, so that was very good. 2nd A was 4h20!!! He slept again for around 55mins but when we stopped the car, he woke up! We'll see his night sleep because he woke up at 4:30 for his bottle but went straight back to sleep afterwards.
Yeah I do follow londondmommy's post, so you don't have to repeat it. I appreciate your time to reply already. I'll see the next 2 days how DS reacts to the A times. If it goes well, I guess I need to see which nap I can shorten, right? Otherwise, there won't be enough A times for the entire day.
I got the gut feeling that when first nap is crap, the day is ruined. But then perhaps I have been too cautious and didn't want to extend the A too long or too worried to get OT. It seems like DS can handle very long A times.
I hope to have good updates tomorrow.
Have a great Friday! Thanks
PS I'm adding your post for Londonmama below, so I don't have to look for it every time. Is this the part you meant?
Ok Ali - now that naps seem to have sorted out I'm going to share what I did. Just so you can go mess things up now :)
We were suffering really badly with EW during the 9th month. Then naps got better, like yours are. But then I started getting the ODD PM nap refusal. So after reading the links I decided to cut the first nap.
At first that didn't work. He would take a PM nap, but not as long as it should have been. But then I pushed the first A time up even more. For awhile it was 4 hours. I don't know why pushing the first A time worked, instead of pushing the second. But it did. The only think I can think of is that he was refreshed enough after a 45 min with only about 3h30m A time.
But I still work him up at 45min. And he finally started taking a longer PM nap. He stated taking 2 hour naps for the first time in his little life. AND I started getting wake-ups close to 7, sometimes after. Which I had never ever had.
I don't know if it will work for you, but it worked here. At leave for a few weeks.
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Yep that's it, except I said, work instead of woke. OOPs :)
Do you think your LO can handle jumping to 3h30m right away? I am just worried that he will get a little OT?
I hope you have good news :) Either way, I hope you have a great weekend.
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Sorry I haven't been around Koe, and sorry things have still been inconsistent.
I agree totally with Sherry - you are going to have to push the first A regardless really - just make sure you move at a pace your lo can handle.
I solved the 9mth EWs in the same way as Sherry, and it worked well for really quite a while. We did a 45min - 1hr am nap, and a 2hr pm nap for ages.
Have a good weekend :-*
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Sherry Lynn, getting worked up is easy, too lol I think DS can handle very long A time as he showed one day probably 2 weeks ago that he just wouldn't stop until 4h... I should have picked up on that by now.
Liz, you must have been very busy! Thanks for your continuous help.
When you got it sorted out, did you both get nice night sleep? Like 11-12h?
No good naps at all today. I felt totally defeated at dinner time as DS wouldn't even want to eat. He ate half of what he normally eats prior to the GS. DH corrected me as DS stopped doing the monstrous cries and putting down to sleep was back to the old way. Tiny bit of mantra and playing and then to sleep. No heart-wrenching cries. And DS couldn't finish his night bottle!
This morning he woke with hungry panic at 5:20, back to sleep at 5:40-5:50 probably and woke at 7:10. First nap 30mins, likely OT. My fault to do grocery shopping as I realised it's Sat, no food at home!!! 1st A 4h10 PD in cot. 2nd A (more errands) 45mins. So dinner time, he's just super tired. He's probably refusing the spoon for soft foods also. (He had entire lunch with boiled potatoes and carrots yesterday). Might need to start real cooking. Bedtime, went down no complaints although wide awake. Just fell asleep quietly.
As DH said, good progress. Try 3 days and see what happens.
Great weekend :)
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That is a hungry EW. He went back to sleep well for you.
What was the second A time?
I hope the night goes well. I'm a little worried about how little sleep he got during the day :( The way bedtime went though is a good sign. :) If he wakes again early I hope he will go back to sleep for you. Keep us posted.
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Another hunger EW at 3:58, after bottle, slept till 5:18!!! Up for the day. I just put him down at exactly 3h30, a bit of sounds but we'll see what happens.
oh 2nd A when he fell asleep yesterday was 3h10. I suspect if he had a good first nap, he could do 3h45. I also learned something else. After 10mins nap, DS was totally recharged, happy and full of energy. I put him down at 1h10 A and it was UT coz he only slept 45mins. Next time when this happens, I can try 1h30. I never had this before so I didn't know until you mentioned it.
Oh BTW, I just realise that on your ticker, you're pregnant!!! Congratulations!!! :)) Must be so exciting! Thanks so much again.
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Do you mind posting yesterday routine?
Do you feel that the EW are OT?
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Is your DS 10 mths plus now?
J has settled to 11-11.5 hr nights at the moment - but TBH some babies just DO NOT sleep 12 hrs at night - and if lo is one of them it does help to know as it changed how you might tackle things.
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I did notice a change of night sleep around 10-12 months, and then again at 18 months.
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DS is a week short of 10mo. So if I still can't get it sorted out, he will get into the 10mo and will probably sort itself out :P
11h will be great! :P
Sherry Lynn, I do feel that it was OT EW.
3 Oct
5:20 hunger wake up, bottle, back to sleep
7:10 wake up A 4h10
11:20 in cot
11:30 S 30 mins
12:00 A 3h10
15:10 S 10 mins
15:20 A 1h10
16:30 S 45mins (I think UT)
17:15 A 2h15
19:20 in cot
19:30 S
4 Oct
3:55 hunger wake up, bottle, back to sleep
5:20 wake up A 3h30 in cot/3h45 to sleep (too long)
8:50 in cot
9:05 S 24mins (OT)
9:29 A 3h10 in cot/3h 30 to sleep
12:40 in cot
13:00 S 25mins (OT)
13:25 A 2h25
15:50 S 1h30 (fell asleep in pram)
17:20 A 2h10 in cot/2h25 to sleep (maybe too short)
19:30 in cot
19:45 S
I would aim at 3h30 to sleep tomorrow for 1st A. I think I know more now what to do after short CNs. I never knew before. DS ate normal after 1h30 nap. So it's good but probably EW due to too short A before bed.
I am a little bit concerned about sleeping in pram as prop! He never used to sleep longer than 30mins in pram no matter how hard we tried. But perhaps it's really just the right A times.
If DS wakes for hunger EW, then back to sleep, do you count the sleep as STTN or u minus the 30mins of feeding out of the sleep amount?
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you might be pleasantly surprised tomorrow morning. I think DS is/was really really OT so an early bedtime might be what he needed.
I was afraid that 3h30m was too much right off the bat. I would def. lower it to IN BED at 3h15m. If all along you've been counting the A time to when he goes to sleep, then it might even need to be a tad lower, like in bed at 3h. But I would try 3h15m in bed first and see how it goes.
I wouldn't worry about the pram being a prop at this point. I think he was just super super tired. Sometimes they just crash.
Good luck on the morning.
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yeah i was thinking more like 3h15 in bed, too! He's just been sooo tired. For once at dinner, he was his usual self, eager to eat and happy.
this morning, EW at 5:15, bottle back to cot, no crying, but laughing hahaha by 5:40 he's quiet :) woke at 7:05 NOT BAD :D
So I hope to report a longer than 30mins 1st nap :D
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FWIW J could do 3-3.5hrs first A at 10 mths. 4 hrs would have been WAY too long.
Looks like you proved OT with that super short A to bed, hey :)!
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yay!
LizJ, which super short A were u talking about? 3 or 4 Oct? I'm making a table to show the correlation for quick reference. How's J doing with his EW?
I got good news! I got 1st nap 1h40 at 3h20. DS has been yawning since 2h A.
ADD:
5 Oct
5:15 wake up, bottle, back to sleep
7:05 wake up A 3h10 in cot 3h20 sleep
10:15 in cot
10:25 S 1h40 :D
12:05 A 3h25 in cot/3h30 sleep
15:30 in cot
15:35 S 1h10
16:44 A 2h25 in cot
19:19 in cot
2 good naps!!! I'm over the moon really! Thanks so much! I think the 2nd A should be 10-15 mins longer. But if his 2nd nap gets too long, it might be too much day sleep. Of course, he might be just catching up and needs all the sleep he wants now. I will see in the morning if the short A before bed has any bad effects.
I think I will be able to sleep tonight :)
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What wonderful news!!!! I hope you get a great nights sleep :)
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Yey ;D what a good nap day. Fingers crossed it carries through to the night - but don't be too disheartened if it doesn't. these EWs have gone on for so long there is likely an element of habit in there as well I'm afraid. BUT a good day time routine is definately the way to fix it :-* :-*.
J's EWs are all settled at the moment *fingers crossed*. Solution for us was to complete the 2-1 transition and he is now on 1 nap only!! He is going to sleep at 7pm and waking at 6-6.30am. Yey!!!
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WOW seems like it's good news everywhere :D I can most definitely sleep well ;)
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Crying very hard around 11pm but went back to sleep himself.
3:50am wake up... we gave bottle, took a little while to self settle but no crying
6:20 wake up for the day A
Perhaps last A to bed was too long yesterday? 2h25 only, though... hmmm or too much day sleep?
Drowsy antihistamine is POWERFUL! I'm still a bit drowsy now at 9:30am, i took one to sleep last night :P
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TBH I doubt there is much wrong with your routine yesterday - just that it will take a bit of time for the OT to work itself out as it has been going on for quite a few weeks now. I'm sure he will need a slightly longer A to bed soon - but I would hold fire on that until the naps are a bit more established.
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Ok then. I should try my best to stick with what I've got from yesterday. But I failed for 1st nap again because I wasn't paying attention to the time! :( 25mins nap :'(
Also, would this morning be OT EW? He didn't sleep well last night.
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But I failed for 1st nap - you can't think like that :( He might have done a 25 min nap anyways. They just have minds of their own sometimes. It's ok. Hopefully with a lower A time he will take a good second nap.
I highly doubt this morning was an EW do to OT. I personally wouldn't consider it an EW having seen your wake ups lately. He did a nice 11 hours last night. With such a good nap day I think that's about right.
I agree that soon you will have to increase that last A time, but hopefully we can get over some OT first.
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Yeah I felt defeated again. Thanks and I will try to look at the big picture. I do think that I am getting better understanding of it but then I'm sure by the time I figure something out, it's all changed!!
I thought it was an EW because DS was very tired all morning. He also had a stirring. So the NW for hunger still counts as the night sleep?
6 Oct
4:50 Hunger wake, bottle, back to sleep took some crying and some time
6:20 wake up for the day A 3h20 in cot/3h30 to sleep
9:40 in cot
9:50 S 25mins
10:15 A 2h15 in cot/2h25 S
12:30 in cot
12:40 S 1h05 (probably woken up by the doorbell)
13:45 A 2h45 in cot/ 3h S
16:30 in cot
16:45 S 30mins
17:15 A 2h10
19:25 S
I have no idea how much A time should be after 1h or 1h05 nap. I was so looking forward to a good first nap for DS and then probably taking him out rather than just stuck at home. But it rained all day anyways. :(
This is just so tough. We've been battling with it so long that DS has probably gone through several A time changes already. :(
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Hi there. I'm just going to offer hugs today.
*hugs*
I'm having a rough day myself.
EW and 1 hour nap for the whole day.
It is rough sometimes. But, you will get past this stage. Things will get better. It just takes sometime.
Plus there's nothing you can do about the stinking doorbell. And there's nothing I can do about the stinking trash truck that woke my DS.
*hugs*
I hope the night goes well for you.
oh, last thought. No the feeding does not count as night sleep. And if you feed it's not a STTN. Sorry I had forgotten about the feed time.
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If you get that wake up again tomorrow I'm going to suggest you extend that last A time. Even with a 30 min nap it should be closer to 3 hours at this age. You might not want to go to 3 hours all in one go, but I'd go for 2h45m at least.
That's just my thought. I understand the need for 3 naps because of such a shoddy day but you really have to be careful of that last A time.
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Thanks for double posts!! HUGZ to you, too!!!
but dang.. i thought i had to keep last A short :'( I really suck...
But then probably with such terrible naps again, short A would be necessary.
But I can count the second wake up time as the start of day?? in other words, the hungry EW and bottle, back to sleep almost instantly should be still part of the night, right? Then the night sleep is really CRAP!! :(
I'm not totally sure if the doorbell woke him because it's the postman and our buzzer broke, so I had to go downstairs to open the door. Because when I was putting jacket on, he still wasn't up! Perhaps sound of keys woke him, or he woke anyway. But then... like u said, so many things i can't control... try again tomorrow.
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Yeah, the feeding is definitely not the start to your day. You county the start correctly.
Sorry my post was confusing, I meant that you would need to increase it, not decrease it. After 30 min he really should still be able to do 3 hours A time. Except that it is the end of the day, so maybe 2h45m would be enough.
I'm just still concerned that the 3 naps is messing everything up still :( But I understand your need to keep them.
Lyle really did not start taking better naps until I just gave up on a 3rd nap period :( I remember when I did that he was up since 12:30 pm - 7pm. Because I was just so tired of the EW, 3rd nap game, etc. But it's not a conventional answer, so I understand your not wanted to do it.
Have you read All4finn's thread. Jess gave her an unconventional answer that might work in your favor. Might be worth a look.
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I took this from the second page threads on EASY. From the thread by All4Finn. For some reason I had trouble linking it, so I'll just copy and paste what was mentioned by Jess - Lukey' Mom
i will also suggest something crazy that worked for luke, but you know finn and whether it will work or not. i had luck a couple of times when he was around finn's age (slightly older) by turning his early bedtime into a nap. in other words, i was putting him to bed around 6 and he was always OT at that point, and we felt like we just couldn't make it any earlier with our schedules. so i tried a couple of times putting him to bed around 5.30, letting him sleep 45 min to an hour, then waking him (hard to do Undecided), keeping him up for about 2 hours more, and putting him to bed. so let's say his bedtime would then be around 8.30 or 9. usually that could get him to make it till about 6.30 or 7. (granted, he would not have had a big, full night's sleep which is why i would only do this on occasion)
from 6.30 or 7 we were able to kind of re-start and re-set his routine, pushing everything back a little and allowing the bedtime to be 7 or 7.30 without him getting too ot and then sleeping a little later.
i also did this sort of thing for daylight saving time. don't know if it would work for finn but maybe an idea??? luke was/is a spirited/touchy refluxer
If you take a look at the age Jess mentions you can tell this really is a wonky time for lots of moms, that's why I don't want you to blame yourself. There's just so much going on with these little guys.
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Thanks so much for the extra info and the encouragement! In my head, I know it's many factors! But I still feel that 5 mins here and there that's totally controlled by me made SO MUCH difference! But then like u said, even when i stick with it, DS might want something different. But that said, he's a textbook baby... hmm
In fact, we have done that what Jess suggested! But then not on purpose. It kind of reset the whole thing a few hours later and we start the battle from a slightly later start LOL... Actually a couple of times, DS just didn't want to sleep. Woke up an hour after normal bedtime. Wanted to play!
I'll take a more thorough look tomorrow. I think I will stick with 3h15- 3h25 1st A for two more days. Try not to change too many things at a time. Also I think walking in the pram is really calming for DS. I need to perhaps modify my winddown to a longer or more effective one. LizJ seems to think that OS won't cause too much trouble. hmm wait.. yesterday with the good naps, i didn't do much difference in terms of winddown... oh scrap that then hahaha
should go to bed.. LOL
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I don't find OS much of an issue at this age, and do think they need time to practise new skills and play properly. I do think you need to calm it about 15 mins before winddown though - I usually find a snack or reading a few books works very well here. OS CAN still happen on crazy days with lots of relatives though. But generally it is mainly younger babies.
What I guess I mean is don't be tempted to keep the whole of your A time boring and quiet in the hope of a better nap. A 10 mth old will not just sit still and do nothing for 3 hrs, and then nap well. They will resist going down in the first place. It is really about balance, common sense, and knowing how much your own baby can take.
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LizJ, thanks for the clarification. It makes a lot of sense. Like u said.. short last A, DS woke at 6:24!!!! no NWs, no crying in the night :D
Ok... I'm going to keep my heads up :D
EDIT: *with very red face* apparently "I" was the only one sleeping through!!! DH told me that DH woke at close to 5, he took DS to me apparently, while he went to fetch a bottle, since I was fast asleep (normally I would give the bottle while lying down haha) he had to give the bottle and put DS back to bed. :P So I had a good night sleep.
so... still on EW... i think the last A needs to be 3h!!! Oh well... DS down for 1st nap...
BUT... he does go back to sleep very easy after the bottle. Is it hunger? The wake up times aren't always the same, so not HW? We dont' want to create a habit of early feeding again. What to do from here?
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Have a good workday! Sometimes I wish I have a job to go to. but then that's another story :P
hmmm one more question: If DS keeps stirring at 30min point in the nap, does it mean he's OT? Can it be an indication? Yesterday during the 2nd nap, he stirred at 45mins point. I thought we got something good going...
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If he is stirring, but not waking I would leave things as they are. Some babies just have a hard time making it through transitions. (The 5am eating, is another time where some babies just struggle more than others)
At this age I'm really inclined to believe that he doesn't truly need that bottle, and that soon he will stop going back to sleep. At which point you will have to work on sleep training :( Sorry to be the giver of that bad news. You said he was eating well during the day :(
I would go back and do the toddler quiz. Your LO doesn't seem textbook to me. :( At least in sleep. I would say spirited or touchy, at least in those areas. I think it might help you feel better about his sleep, and that it's not all your fault.
Good luck on naps today.
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He isn't as hungry as when we started giving the bottle around a week ago. Beforehand, no matter what, he wouldn't go back to sleep even with bottle. I also think since we have been having it for a few months, he's more sensitive to an extra 5 mins too long or too short A time.
Crap naps... 2nd nap probably woken up by DH talking too loud on the phone. Who knows. Need to slot another CN in but will keep it short to see if it improves EW.
You, too!! Did you have a good night?
If he is stirring, but not waking I would leave things as they are. Some babies just have a hard time making it through transitions.
He was really awake. If he just cries and not escalate, we would wait. If it's real hunger EW, then DS probably won't be able to last a full A time right? Not sure how to decide whether to get him up for the day or not...
ADD:
7 Oct
5:00 wake up, bottle, back to sleep
6:24 wake up A 3h15
9:40 S 50mins
10:30 A 3h25
13:55 S 40mins (maybe woken up by noises)
14:35 A 2h25
17:00 S 25mins
17:25 A 2h10
19:35 S
Last nap, DS could probably nap longer but I woke him up. See if shorter nap close to bedtime would help with EW.
Since first nap is only 50mins, does it count as full nap? Should 2nd A be shorter afterwards? Also what's the typical A time after 30mins nap?
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Sorry to hear about the naps.
If this continues then I'll be all out of ideas EXCEPT to just drop the catnap, period. I was the last person on our birth club to drop the catnap and I dropped it at 9 months. I can't help but thing that that does have an effect on everything.
See.... for a textbook baby the 5 min here or there don't matter. That is very very much a spirited and touchy thing.
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Whoops I added while you were typing :P
here it is again...
If he is stirring, but not waking I would leave things as they are. Some babies just have a hard time making it through transitions.
He was really awake. If he just cries and not escalate, we would wait. If it's real hunger EW, then DS probably won't be able to last a full A time right? Not sure how to decide whether to get him up for the day or not...
ADD:
7 Oct
5:00 wake up, bottle, back to sleep
6:24 wake up A 3h15
9:40 S 50mins
10:30 A 3h25
13:55 S 40mins (maybe woken up by noises)
14:35 A 2h25
17:00 S 25mins
17:25 A 2h10
19:35 S
Last nap, DS could probably nap longer but I woke him up. See if shorter nap close to bedtime would help with EW.
Since first nap is only 50mins, does it count as full nap? Should 2nd A be shorter afterwards? Also what's the typical A time after 30mins nap?
I did the questionaire again a week ago. He's still more textbook than spirited. But I did understand more that DS needs to let his energy out. I'm slowing reading through the spirited child thread. It's long...
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DS just woke, so I'll try to remember to come back, or just type hi or something to me so that it pops back up :)
You don't have to read the whole thread to jump in, just introduce yourself. :)
Liz and I both can answer questions about it, we both have spirited LOs :)
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hi hehe
oh... so i start also there? will do :D
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Still 5:10 wake up, bottle and immediately back to sleep in cot
6:20 wake up A
10:00 in cot (I tried putting him down at 9:30 - 3h10, but he started screaming murder like last week when he's UT, so I picked him up and continue to hold him, sing more songs, until he yawned, did the nap routine, read story, this time he went down quiet)
10:05 S
I understood something again. This is about having calmed him down when he's not tired, he's just not tired. This happened last week also. This time I gave him a few more minutes of cuddling. A time became just a tad bit longer, hopefully won't cause OT.
I redid the quiz for babies (i wasn't sure if i should do the toddler quiz). 4 counts of D's, 8 counts of B's. I'll pay more attention to proper winddown and see if it helps with DS going to sleep.
Today is fine weather, so I'll probably take DS out to enjoy some sun rather than sulk at home worrying about naps @_@ More fun that way.
Been thinking about not feeding at the first wake up. But he was again obviously very tired. I'm thinking about first getting the naps right. Once I could get 2 or even 1 good nap in, with early bedtime if necessary to keep last A within reason, say around 3-3h30. Then we'll stop feeding unless DS wakes before 5. Does that sound good?
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I'm with Sher on this one - no way is your little man textbook for sleep. Not a chance :P. If he were textbook we would have made one or 2 suggestions and within 3 days he would be on a good napping routine. Once every 4-6 weeks it would need a little tweak - simple as that.
All this 5 mins here and there is very touchy or spirited. J used to have his fair share of textbook when he was younger, but is very much spirited now. But always was with sleep. Today I had to go out at nap time - so he slept for 45 mins this am in the car. I know it will be a dreadful battle to get a pm nap out of him now, but that is the way these spirited ones are.
I think I've told you my opinion on 5am bottle before :-\ but I don't think your DS is waking with hunger either. I think it is OT or at least routine issues. Now he may be a bit peckish by then, and unlikely to want to go back to sleep without a bottle. But that is different from genuine hunger.
Now - I understand that it is probably helping your household with him nodding back off after that bottle, but one of 2 things will happen. Soon he will stop going back to sleep, or soon he will be used to being fed at 5am and will continue to wake for it regardless of whether his napping has straightened out again or not. I've been in this trap with J many times - except it was harder with him as he didn't eat well, so I could never be sure it wasn't hunger.
What I have always done is start diluting the bottle to get rid of it almost as soon as I allow it to be restarted, so that he doesn't become reliant on the calories. Not sure if you have ever gone that route before though?
Tracey says you can do the toddler quiz at 10 months - which is when her baby book finishes - so give it a go and see!!
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Hi LizJ
I'll do the quiz next. Remember I also told you a little while back that I just realised how much more spirited DS is than I thought. But then... do I need to do anything different because he's Spirited?
The extra bottle hunger panic EW started last Sat morning. I thought it was the 9mo GS that you mentioned. Followed by 2 or 3 bad eating days. But I defintely don't want to turn it into habitual waking for bottle. Will start diluting from tomorrow. I haven't had to do this before. It reminds me of having read it. Definitely give it a try.
Actually checking my records, we sort of cracked the A time at almost a month ago and then we had to go to HK. Then it all went down the drain even when I followed that new A time. Lots of things happened since. Some nights we had to be out and so DS couldn't be in his bed by his bedtime. He got woken up yesterday and today from his naps. grrrrrrr
Today is terrible terrible nap day but 2 naps only haha
8 Oct
5:10 wake up, bottle, back to sleep
6:20 wake up A 3h40 in cot/3h45 S (tried 30 mins earlier but DS just screamed like his UT scream)
10:00 in cot
10:05 S 45mins
10:50 A 5h05
15:55 S 30mins (in pram)
16:25 A 2h35
19:00 in cot and S
second A was disaster also coz I had to run errands.
So my questions are:
what do I have to do differently for spirited sleep traits?
what is the usual A time after 45mins nap? same as first A or short? by how much? (I tend to shorten too much and then UT)
Thanks again!! I saw that there are 150 messages on this thread... :(
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At this age after a 45 min nap I think we did around 3h-3h10m. That's what makes me think that your LO can def. do more than 3h10m for the first A time. I think most moms did 3 hours. But Liz would have a better idea about that one. Sometimes we had to do as low as 2.5, but there was usually something else going on.
For spirited sleepers, I don't think you DO anything different that really makes all the difference, other than things we've already suggested, like making sure they get enough activity, cut off stimulation 15 min prior, white noise, darkened room, etc.
But, it's just understanding that they will never be "perfect" sleepers. They tend to get into OT cycles easier, I think also. Lyle has been really hard to move forward with A times, then all of a sudden he will make a huge A time jump. But if I try to do that jump all h&ll breaks loose, he has to be ready.
That's all I can think of now :)
Curious to see how the night well go after a nap day like this.
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At 10 mths I would have done just under 3hrs after a 45 min nap, and 2h 30 after a 30 min nap.
My routine at 10 mths was
Awake 6.30am 3.5hrsA
Nap 10-11 (I woke him)
Nap 2ish - 4pm
Bedtime 7pm
So his A was 3hrs or just over after a 1hr nap, and then 3hrs to bed. Took me FOREVER to realise J liked a shorter A to bed, although I think your DS might be the other way around.
Spirited LO's tend to need the 15 min cut off of chaos (we do a snack and then read some books). J does best with a short winddown. Isn't one for lots of cuddles in the nursery - often will try and fling himself out of my arms to lie in there instead.
I think I experienced similar with J - I found it hard to extend his A's beyond that routine and we ended up in a royal mess for a few months. Have finally got back on track now.
Nap extension is often less successful with a spirited LO - as most of the methods are just too exciting and stimulating. PU/PD can be a disaster as they play to the audience and get over excited. Shh/ptt was hard too as if he could see my face he wouldn't go to sleep.
Its all stuff like this that is spirited sleep.
Plus point is that they tend to be smart and catch onto stuff quick. J is a gem with little routines so he knows what is coming next. Knows when you divert as well. DH can home as I was putting him to bed the other day so I took him to give him a kiss instead of put him in the cot. J looked at me as though I was daft, refused to kiss Daddy, and pointed to his bedroom door. He had had his bottle and knew it was time to go to sleep.
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At 10 months Lyle also did best with 3 hours before bed. But if something went wrong with the PM nap he would be ok with 4 hours. Our routine was almost identical to yours, except I had to cut the first nap to 45 min. I could never find the right A time after an hour nap.
Very very short wind down here as well. But cut off time from stimulation before hand works well.
For us the spirited really plays out in that I will try my best to do everything EXACTLY the same and a "successful" day and it might not work. And he never ever wakes at the same time two days in a row. Even if everything else looks the same. Nap, bedtime, etc. So after a about a year I finally let myself off the hook. That I could only control so much.
A mom of a spirited LO gave me a really good talk on time. I guess I should tell you this now (I've told lots of moms and the spirited baby's board.
Your responsibility is to but them down in an environment that is conducive to their sleep (dark room, white noise, what every helps them) at a reasonable A time. Which for you right now I think is around 3h15m-3h30m.
THEIR JOB - is to sleep. You can't do it for them. :)
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Thank you both for the tips.
I just can't help hating myself for not getting the reasonable A time right to put him down. I know I shouldn't do that because it doesn't do anyone any good.
I also can't decide when we're 10mins away from home and DS is about to nod off. If I let him nod off, he will wake with 10mins nap, or i just continue walking or keep him up until we got home. I tried that yesterday and that's when it went horribly wrong. I guess... I shouldn't try to play God :P
But good thing is that DS is quite exact with timing in the sense that after 25min nap, he wants 2h25mins A time. EXACT haha that's really funny. Somehow I just can't work out the correct A sequence/winddown to get him to a calm level to sleep.
I guess I should accept that I can never have a nap during the day. haha
I have copied and pasted the last 3 messages separately on a file for quick reference :) Thanks so much.
Will post an update on today....
oh Sherry, btw... 5:02 wake up this morning. 6:24 wake again.
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I never. EVER got a single nap during the day until DS went to one nap, solidly. So not until he was close to 18 months old. Sorry :)
If he is nodding off. Just keep going, seriously. It will save you a huge headache, and a nap here or there in the stroller is not going to make him dependent on it.
You are giving him reasonable A times. Just the fact that you are trying so hard shows that. I think the message was supposed to be that your not one of those moms that is keeping him up for 5 hours and then trying to figure out why he won't sleep.
I hope the day goes well.
The exact times shows it might be becoming a habit.
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DS used to sleep after every feed or after we started EASY, before every feed. sigh... But I had to express.
I wasn't worried about sleeping in pram becoming a prop. I was more concerned about a 30min nap and then the whole day shifts earlier and earlier and ended up with OT bedtime.
Today turned out to be very interesting:
5:02 wake up, bottle (diluted), back to sleep
6:24 wake up, A 4h30
10:54 S 44mins
11:38 A 3h15
14:53 S 45mins
15:38 A 3h37
19:15 S
1st A was due to the arriving at home and he's just woken from the about-to-nod-off state. Screamed and wouldn't go to sleep. I learned from the day before to put him back in the pram to go for a walk. Otherwise it would be another 5h A!!! :-\
18months!!!! DS will be 10 months tomorrow YAY :D
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There is hope - J is basically on one nap at 12.5 mths ;).
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You're a lucky women Liz. We had 2-1 craziness from 10-14/15 months :P With some calm weeks in there.
Lyle was on one nap earlier, but I didn't trust it enough to relax enough to take a nap :)
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but I didn't trust it enough to relax enough to take a nap :)
hahaha i have been worrying too much to have any sleep that even sleeping pills weren't working. this antihistamine that knocked me out worries me hahaha
yeah i should just relax... (it's easier said than done)... DH just told me that I should get out and about more often. Yeah... with all the food, diapers and disaster poopie diapers... it's just bringing the whole works out to a foreign place to do with no help!!! hmmm I don't fancy that too much somehow.. perhaps i'm just not game enough :P
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I don't get out much either. But, your DH does have a point. Have you been able to find any baby groups or anything of the sort. I don't go much, but when I do go I usually enjoy it and think, why don't I come more often :)
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I know it's true and I know he's right. But until I get some sleep, I'm not fit to be out for anything longer than a grocery run. I also enjoy being out immensely even it's family gathering with IL's haha.
I should find some baby groups but I don't really speak the local language much, so it makes it hard to find something close to where we live. It takes me 15 mins to get to public transport that brings me to town. It's a drag.
But then it's just me very tired.
But I got good news! DS woke at 6:15 this morning with no crying!!! I was focussing too much on getting long naps for him. Perhaps the key for now is to keep at 2 naps even when they were only 45mins. But I woke up at 5:35!
fingers crossed for today and we ARE going out for DS' 10mos hehe Hopefully we won't mess it up too much :D
Good weekend to you both!
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Don't worry about it messing it up :) Just enjoy your LO and DH. :) We don't get enough of these good days.
Congrats on the wake up. WOOHOO!!
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It's indeed a great day out!!! :D
Dh got DS to take a good nap. I still don't know how he does it!! And another 45 mins nap in the pram in town!!!
10 Oct
6:15 wake up A 3h27
9:42 S 1h15
10:12 A 3h18
14:30 S 40mins
15:10 A 4h20
19:30 S
He's so nicely tired for his bedtime.
If he starts to wake later and later (fingers crossed), perhaps I need to be careful with nap times? How can I find out which nap is best to shorten?
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Looks good on paper Koe :-*
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Glad you had such a good day. I don't think you would want anything less than you had today. I wouldn't worry about shortening naps just yet. See if you can get a repeat of something like this for a few days first ???
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Thanks Liz!! :-*
Sherry, thanks!! :-*
You're so right. As if I could repeat it again.... With the last A being so long, we had EW again at 5:40am. No crying at all. Playing in crib happily for 20mins before I got him up!
Just gotta keep at it!!
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Yeah, I was a little worried about that A time. But, it's ok because you had a nice day :)
I hope he does well today. Do you think it might be that he gets more stimulation with DH? I know that was the case for us too. But sometimes DH would go a little overboard or put him in a little too late and he would get an OT nap too. Just trying to figure out the mystery. :)
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I have a confession to make :( We were out again but then we got too carried away having a good time with friends and DS had a 6h A time :( Thunderstorm right now... hopefully DS can sleep through it.
11 Oct
5:40 wake up A 3h45 (we gave bottle and kept him in our bed, DS just playing, looking around, totally different to the hungry EW)
9:25 S 45mins
10:10 A 6h24 :'(
16:34 S 45mins (no crying to go down)
17:20 A 1h55
19:15 S
About the mystery, I really want to crack it, too. One thing I know for sure is that DS can sit on DH's lap for a much longer time. When he sits on mine, he gets fidgety very quickly. DH thinks probably my legs or angle of my legs are just not so nice to sit on!! :( DH can have quite a long time while reading his emails or news online and DS just sits there with him. DS just won't do that with me. I also can't carry DS and walk around the house too long as I get back pain very easily even with a wrap.
DH does tend to go overboard and I used to get upset with him for fear of OT. These past few days, however, DS seems to be doing better with the extra bit. Or perhaps I always get DS too mellow and then carrying him around and that takes too long and it's like he's already had his rest, IYKWIM?
I'll definitely let DS let his energy out and see what happens next week. I actually wish DS would do hunger EW so we can give him a bottle to go back to sleep :P But with all that tiredness, he ate super well tonight! Perhaps I underestimated DS.
Sherry, how's your LO doing now?
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Thati s a perfect example of 45 min being OT :) I would get them too and you hear so much that 45min = UT. Not always :)
I hear you on the hunger EW :)
I hope tomorrow you get back on track with some decent naps like you had last week.
Lyle's doing ok. We haven't had any out right nap refusals lately. So, that's good :)
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That's so true about 45mins OT nap! This one big science project/experiment I normally call it, is just fascinating. :D
DS woke at 6:04!!! YAY so that's a good start, we tried the bottle because he was crying while I was holding him and then put him back to the cot but he was just playing, making sounds and started crying again 30mins later! That's VERY good hehe
Glad that we're all doing better :D
start of a new week... best of luck to us all ;)
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YEY for a good start to the day. I LOVED 6am wake ups at this point :) I would say, anything after 6am is acceptable.
Best of luck for the first nap.
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It was about this age that I decided that 6am was perfectly acceptable ::), and 6.30am was the target.
Anything later just seemed so unreaslistic :(.
45 min naps are often OT for me as well - most of J's short naps were 37 minutes - and that was either UT or OT. Both 30 and 45 mins were very unusual despite what is always said on here.
They are all so different.
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I agree 6 is acceptable, until end of daylight saving. :P
Sherry,
your lucky wish really worked, at least for the first nap!!!
12 Oct
6:03 wake up A 3h45
9:48 S 1h15
11:05 A 5h32
16:37 S 57mins
17:34 A 2h20 in cot/ 2h46
19:54 in cot
20:20 S (there were a bit of banging and playing sounds :o )
The first nap, I did it myself. I was soooo happy that he could take a good nap with me. Then the second nap was a disaster. I did almost the same as the morning except DS got home with DH from a bike ride 14:30, 30 mins before nap time. I gave DS a snack and let him crawl a bit but he wanted to sit on my lap and read a bit and played with some toys. So he was quite calm, then I went through the same routine as I did in the morning. When I put him down, screaming, which sounded like the UT scream.
So I thought, alright, I'll take DS out for a walk so at least he could get a nap at a decent time. When we're out the front door, it started raining!!! Turned back, just the walk from the front door, back through the corridor to our own door, he yawned and almost fell asleep!!! Of course, once we got home, he's wide awake!!
Tried again to read to him, just wouldn't have any of it. Kept wiggling out. So once it stopped raining, I took him out for a walk again. 1 min away from home, he's already gone! Perhaps after 1h15 nap, he could handle much longer A. I was planning 4h already. I got very frustrated again at the second nap. But it's already much better than a few days ago.
See what tomorrow brings... :)
LizJ, each child is so unique and yet so similar. Fascinating. And you've done it!! I wish I could just go to 1 nap! I most definitely have anxiety over naps. Good that there are only 2 now.
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I hope the wake up isn't too early. YEY for the success on the first nap :)
Maybe you've found a good A time. YIPPEE!!!
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Yeah 6am wake up!!!! DS cried a bit at 4:53 but fell back to sleep himself. :D
He's very tired today. First nap, he fell asleep in our morning walk!!! :o It was only 3h15 A. Since then he's just rubbing eyes, yawning... he's a bit out of sorts today. We'll see if he would take a nap at home. Or I have to take him for another walk...
Now finally slept at 3h30 also. Lots of whining... It's only midday and I'm exhausted...
did you have a good night and morning?
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The night was ok, the wake up was ok. A little earlier than we've been having lately. I think he might have been cold. The temps dropped last night.
But I also had a cranky little guy this morning.
How long did he sleep in the stroller this morning? I hope he naps ok for you.
YIPPEE on the wake up :)
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Oh I forgot to mention, he slept for 55mins!!! He must have been extremely tired. He did have a short night as I put him to bed late.
13 Oct
6:00 wake up A 3h15
9:15 S 55mins
10:10 A 3h30
13:40 S 1h
14:40 A 4h30
19:10 S
All day he was a little restless and didn't play nice. First nap was a surprise. Didn't even think he would fall asleep and slept long. Then he's really cranky. Yawning and rubbing eyes through lunch and snack. I didn't think I could put him down at all for 2nd nap. A bit of whining and slept an hour with no stirring at all! Not bad. I took him for another walk to get him calm. He went down very nicely. He's just exhausted.
1st nap could be UT, though. But I'm not complaining. He needs to catch up on some sleep.
Hope your little guy gets good nap!!
DH really didn't want to do bedtime before 7 lol.. he's scared...
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Not too bad at all Koe - it is pretty normal for a baby of this age to do 2x1hr naps even though we would prefer a little more.
I would have gone for a 6.30pm bedtime, though.
I understand the fear though and I refuse to do earlier than 6.30pm for the same reasons.
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Thanks, LizJ. We're glad that things are improving. However we had a very rough night. Is there another GS at 10mos?!?! DS woke crying close to midnight. I had a sleeping pill so couldn't think straight. I checked and it wasn't diapers, not teething, not temperature, no fever. Then we gave him a bottle but because I couldn't think straight, we gave a diluted bottle. He went back to sleep after the bottle but DH had to sit by the bed till he's almost asleep. DS woke again at 5 and needed another bottle. (This I wouldn't be surprised after the diluted bottle and he was desperately drinking).
The last few days DS has been having very short last A. Do you think I should try and keep that?
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There isn't a 'know' GS at 10 mths - the next is 12 months.
TBH I'm not sure what your DS is up to with that one but I suspect it is a case of 'it seeming like a good idea once he is awake'.
Did he eat well yesterday? I've sometimes accepted the odd night feed after I know he has had a bad eating day and therefore a reason for genuine hunger.
I think it is very likely some of it was OT after the long A and it is likely he will prefer a short A to bed - mainly after his rubbish napping all day!!
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Yesterday he ate just a tiny bit less than normal, but quite a bit less than during the GS last week. Let's hope it's an OT thing.
14 Oct
After 2 bottles, 1 at around midnight and 1 at 5, he's back to sleep after half an hour or so.
8:00 wake up A 5h (We're not exactly sure what time DS woke as we were sooo tired and just got back to sleep.)
13:00 S 1h45
14:45 A 3h55 for 1st bedtime attempt, 5h15
18:40 in cot, few minutes later started crying :'(
20:00 S
I don't know about other countries, playgroups here all tend to be 10-12 which is exactly DS' nap time normally. Since he had a late start today, we went to a playgroup. It was great and DS had great fun and so did I! I thought he would sleep on the way home but he didn't. Perhaps he was hungry.
He went down very well for his nap and woke crying. The rest of the day was yawning but happy. So I thought to give him early bed as he's only had 1 nap. I tried everything to get him back to sleep but he just wouldn't have any of it. Got him up to play. Gave him another bottle and then he went down, no fuss!
There could be several possibilities why he wouldn't sleep. 1st, hunger. I didn't think of that because though he didn't eat a big dinner, but i gave him extra big bottle already. So 1 hour later, I gave him 2/3 of a bottle and he finished it. 2nd, perhaps too bright outside. He's been going to bed at almost total darkness outside. Suddenly it was sunny :-[ 3rd, didn't do enough in the afternoon. Took him grocery shopping after his nap and with early bedtime, not much playing time at all. 4th, the overall day just wasn't long enough. 8am wake and 6:40 to bed, perhaps too short?
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You are right, it really could have been any of those reasons.
I think it's great that he had such a long nap though. That's uncommon for him :)
Good luck on the night.
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well... just a quick update:
5:20 wake up, HUNGRY :o after a normal bottle
7:24 wake up A
not sure if DS is really wanting to switch to 1 nap... perhaps after 1h45 nap he can go on for 5h! But one good thing is that... we're probably ready for end of daylight savings hahaha *Fingers crossed*
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Hmmmm... maybe... he needs to be able to handle that sort of A every single day though.
Do you think he could?
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I don't think he can but seems like that's what his body wants. I guess it's the start of the transition as we already know it.
This morning, again, he fell asleep in the pram at 2h45 A! He's just plain knackered from all the excitement in the last few days. So will try to let him have a decent rest at home.
He does seem hungry all morning. It's interesting that the days when we gave him diluted bottles, he only slept around 1h afterwards. This morning we gave a full bottle, he slept 2h.
ADD
15 Oct
5:24 wake, bottle, back to sleep
7:24 wake up A 2h45
10:17 S 35mins (in pram)
10:52 A 3h17
14:05 S 30mins (on bike!!!!)
14:35 A 2h30
16:05 S 35mins (in pram again)
16:40 A 3h10
19:50 in cot /19:55 S
DS did eat more overall but not more at dinner. He had about a banana and 3/4 slice of bread more in total. We'll see. He's just very tired today. It does seem like a GS with the tiredness and he keeps chewing on his fingers.
Probably will EWs for OT. I prepared 2 bottles at bedtime and he couldn't even finish the first one :P :P and the planning to let him sleep well at home didn't work out.
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I'm just lost.
16 Oct
6:08 wake up, crying, after normal bottle, back to sleep
7:52 wake up. A 4h50
12:42 S 1h25
14:07 A 3h45
17:53 S 30mins (in pram)
18:23 A 1h35
20:00 S
6am 1st wake up wasn't bad at all. But he was so sleepy and he went back to sleep for 2 more hours. I don't think I could give him any more to eat during the day, though. If he eats more in the early part of the day, he won't have much dinner. It could also be 3 naps that got the EW but he wanted to go back to sleep. Since it's 6, it isn't likely to be HW. Knowing that if we don't feed him, he won't be able to go to bed. Not sure how to help him transition to his next sleep cycle?
Also, he fell asleep right when we arrived home at our front door!!! So, he went on longer so 1st A became so long. There are still only 2 naps but the last nap was so close to bedtime. Can 1h25 nap mean OT? Or would even longer A give longer nap like two days ago???
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Sorry Koe - been busy over the weekend.
How has it been over the weekend?
1hr 25 min naps can be either really - for me they always meant I should have got him to sleep 10 mins earlier so he was just a tad OT. But often UT as well.
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I think I would have just kept going like we've talked about before. Those walks really are messing things up for you. But I know you can't just not go out.
Also curious to see how the weekend has been.
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We had a busy weekend, too. One very good night and 2 bad.
17 Oct
6:52 wake up A 4h08 (stirred at 5:35, took ages to resettle and by 6:12, DS was back to sleep himself :D So 10h52 night sleep)
11:00 S 1h25
12:25 A 4h20
17:45 S 45mins (in pram, just wanted to make sure a CN was in)
18:30 A 1h52
20:22 S 10h only
The 1st nap must have been too long and so DS just wouldn't take another nap, so out for a walk but it's too late already. Or 45mins was too long??
18 Oct (had to go to DH's mother and didn't get home till 7pm!!!)
6:27 wake up A 3h33 (not good considering bedtime was a full hour later :()
10:00 S 50mins (in the car)
10:50 A 3h42
14:32 S 36mins (during a walk in the pram)
18:34 S 21mins
18:55 A 1h27
20:22 S 9h 30
19 Oct
5:52 wake up A 4h
9:50 S 30mins
10:20 A 2h30
12:50 S 35mins
13:25 A 3h40
17:05 S 40mins (in pram and this was deliberate)
17:45 A 2h45
20:35 S
The late bedtime wasn't intended. Just not sure if 3 naps or late last nap is worse?!?! From 17 Oct, seems like it was a perfect day but the night sleep was only 10h, like i said earlier.
He went down to nap very easily first 2 naps. Just too short. Perhaps OT from yesterday.
I was so scared of the falling asleep during walks, I took DS out to do grocery right after he woke from nap #2!!! I'll just keep at 3h45 to put in cot for 1st A and see what happens.
I hope you both have had a great weekend.
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Today was not a very good day.
20 Oct
5:54 wake up (9.5h night sleep) and bottle and slept again
7:49 wake up A 6h11
14:00 S 50mins
14:50 A 2h09
17:00 S 35 (in pram)
17:35 A 2h45
20:20 S
I first put down DS at around A 3h50, but he just cried so hard like the UT cries before. Got him up and he played nicely. When he started to lose coordination, I quickly winded him down and put him to bed. Even 4h A isn't long enough? I took him for a walk and was back around 3h A to prevent him falling asleep. Perhaps he slept well and needed longer A?
He went down for his night very well. So we'll see what time he wakes in the morning.
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Sorry to hear about your day :( That stinks. I was wondering what happened to doing the 3.5 hours of A time? It doesn't seem like we tried that consistently for 3 days? Or was it 3h45m we were going to work on for 3 days. I don't remember now :) I think your LO is spirited or touchy in his sleep, and sometimes the 5/10 min really does make a difference.
I've noticed that there are a lot of moms starting the board who are having an issue with 9 months olds (it seems to be a common age for routine issues) and I was wondering if you wouldn't mind starting a new thread because this one is getting long. New people don't feel comfortable joining a thread when it is long. We want to keep supporting you, but we also think it would be great to let other mum's be a part of that and to get some fresh eyes looking at the current situation.
I will gladly look at the new thread to offer support but I do think it is important to make a fresh thread that describes the current situation that you see your self in :)
Sherry xxx
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A quick tip with your early wakings. I wouldn't suggest putting him to sleep earlier than 7:00pm, otherwise he gets his 11 hours of sleep and wakes up too early. The other thing is when he wakes up at night like 4am don't change him or don't go in right away, give him time to fallasleep himself. If he is crying or woke up keep it low and reassure him that its still night and he has to go back to sleep, don't rock him or use any props just talk to him. And in the morning try pushing 10 min at a time, lets say he woke up at 5:30am don't go to him right away, wait 10 min that way he knows that its not OK to wake up that early and so on you can teach him wake up later. It will take some time , but it worked for me!
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Hi Sherry Lynn
I totally agree! I was going to just drop this and get to the 2-1 transition thread :P But i will start a new thread. I need to check back a few pages to see what we decided on. DS just changes so much in a week or two. Then I can give a brief description of where we are at right now. (I'll hold off my questions till the new post)
Hi Abilgailsmom
Oh thanks for the tips. I totally agree with the early bed! It's been killing us. Now our bedtime is as late as 20:20. (Daylight savings ends this weekend anyway, so we might be back to 5:30 EWs. YIKES). I'll remember your tips about delaying response to DS. BUT DS has always been a super hungry baby. He does have a difference cry when he wants food. Once I have got some sleep in me, I'll even do W2S to get rid of HWs :D
See you all in the new thread.
Thanks so much again.
PS Sherry Lynn, do you have of a way to export the whole thread as I want to keep it since there are many very useful tips in it. I tried copying and pasting... it's not so easy with such long thread.
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A summary of where you are at would be really useful for me as well Koe - even though I have been in it for a while. Kind of refreshes the mind and hopefully stimulates new ideas.
When you start the new post either Sherry or myself will lock this one and link the two together ie there will be a link on the new thread you can click on to get back to this one if you want a quick read, and also at the end of this one for anyone who has been reading along but not posting.
So you don't need to copy and paste really.
We will lock this one once you have started the new post - but DO go and join the 2-1 transition as well. Misery loves company and it IS a hard transition :-* :-*.
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Here's the link to the new thread :)
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=158052.0